noobzor's page

Basically, combat doesn't start until (A) one creature initiates an attack against another creature, or (B) a creature is anticipating an attack from another creature. You could sit in the "not yet in combat" zone for hours before you hit the moment of "just before combat."

I am not finding any rules to support this. The beginning of combat seems to be based on intent or perception of danger. At the time initiative is rolled, nobody has performed any actions yet, and nobody has committed to performing any actions yet. It seems that they are able to decide not only what they want to do, but also whether they want to act at all, as their turn comes up in the initiative. I don't see anything that would prohibit a character from delaying action in the surprise round, even if they are the only combatant that is not surprised.

I think the problem is that the rules concerning surprise are intended for group vs. group (or at least group vs. creature) combat, not for a 1 on 1 situation. The surprise rules work well when there are a number of people who can act during the surprise round, but not so well when there is one lonely rogue getting the drop on some poor sap who got stuck on the night shift (who is probably 3 days from retirement).

That being said, as a long-time GM, I would allow a rogue to do this in my game. It may be over-powered in a PvP type scenario, but a 1-on-1 surprise round just isn't a common occurrence, at least not in any game that I've run. I say, let the rogue have their fun once in a while, and put a construct on guard duty next time.

Andrija Frlan wrote:

You choose when to start a fight. Normally, if your opponent is surprised, which he/she/it should be if you are hidden, you get a partial action. For your partial action you decide to forgo your action and to delay.

Sean K Reynolds (Designer) wrote:

Basically, combat doesn't start until (A) one creature initiates an attack against another creature, or (B) a creature is anticipating an attack from another creature. You could sit in the "not yet in combat" zone for hours before you hit the moment of "just before combat."

This may be blasphemous, but I believe the comments by Mr. Reynolds are not in line with the RAW. If this is the intent, there should be something in the rules to explicitly say so.

noobzor wrote:

I don't see why you couldn't Delay Action in the surprise round, then take your action at the top of the initiative order in the first normal round of combat, at which point you could snipe.

That relies on someone else starting combat. If it's just you and the guard, and the guard doesn't know you're there, initiative doesn't happen until you commit to the attack.

If it's you, the guard, and a buddy, and the buddy goes up and hits the guard, then you could wait until the first round and snipe.

Just because you get a turn in the surprise round that doesn't mean you have to do anything. I can't find any rules that say that at least one combatant on either side of the combat has to take an action in the surprise round. RAW, I believe it would be allowed for someone in the surprise round to delay action, even if they are the only person who is not surprised.

Edit: I also can't find any rule that states that an action must be taken in order to start the combat. Just because the guy delaying action is the only one who knows combat started, that doesn't mean it hasn't started yet. Combat starts when anyone involved chooses to initiate combat, then initiative is rolled, then actions are taken accordingly after combat has already been started.

Sniping

If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location. Action: However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Surprise round
In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round.

Does this mean that a character cannot use stealth for sniping in a surprise round, because he needs both a standard action to attack and a move action to hide, and in a surprise action he can make only one of these two?

If the answer is "He cannot", what else can he do? Can he give up the surprise round in order to snipe are remain undetected?

It is a little confusing so any help would be most welcome.

I don't see why you couldn't Delay Action in the surprise round, then take your action at the top of the initiative order in the first normal round of combat, at which point you could snipe. Anyone else who wasn't surprised would still get to act in the surprise round, and you would still only get one action in the first round of combat.