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Mystic Theurge

nogoodscallywag's page

FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 352 posts (505 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 9 Pathfinder Society characters. 3 aliases.


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Grand Lodge

A GM a one-player game at the moment. We just completed Rise of the Runelords and only one player has the time to continue to play the next AP.

He's only level 16, and we'd like to put him through Kingmaker. But in order to do so, we need to do some math in order to make it challenging and fun, as he will be by himself player-wise.

First, a bit about his character. While he was created with a 20-point buy, we made a custom minotaur race (Taurian) that bends the rules just a bit, causing him to be in actuality a much higher build than normal. We based it off the In the Company of Monsters book several years ago using the Race Guide creation rules. I've posted his character below:

PC:
Terran Thunderhoof
Male taurian rog kalem taurian paragon 15/fighter 1
N Huge monstrous humanoid (human)
Hero Points 1
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., scent; Perception +23
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 40, touch 19, flat-footed 40 (+14 armor, +5 deflection, +5 enhancement, +1 insight, +7 shield, -2 size)
hp 227 (16d10+126); fast healing 10, regeneration 1
Fort +16, Ref +8, Will +12; +2 morale bonus vs. transmutation spells
Defensive Abilities stubborn; Immune bleeds
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Melee +3 defending domineering taurian greataxe +23/+18/+13/+8 (4d8+37/×3) or
sword of greed chellan +27/+22/+17/+12 (3d6+28/15-20) or
karzoug's burning glaive +24/+19/+14/+9 (3d8+36/×3) or
gore +18 (2d6+12)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +15/+10/+5/+0 (1d8+1/×3)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 36, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +16; CMB +26; CMD 47
Feats Cleave, Cosmopolitan[APG], Furious Focus[APG], Greater Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Magical Aptitude, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Toughness, Vital Strike
Traits indomitable faith, rich parents
Skills Acrobatics -1 (+11 to jump), Diplomacy -3, Fly +3, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (nature) +1, Linguistics +1, Perception +23, Spellcraft +6, Survival +13 (+15 to avoid becoming lost), Use Magic Device +16
Languages Common, Draconic, Skald, Taurian, Thassilonian
SQ armor training 4, deadly horns (taurian only), evasion (taurian only), focused strength (taurian only), hero points, improved evasion (taurian only), see in darkness, taurian constitution level 11, taurian constitution level 15, taurian constitution level 3, taurian constitution level 7, taurian gore, taurian natural hunter, taurian natural trapper, taurian powerful charge, taurian size increase - l, taurian strength 10, taurian strength 14, taurian strength 2, taurian strength 6, toughness taurian
Combat Gear +1 dispelling seeking arrows (50), crown of blasting (major), helm of teleportation, ring of invisibility, rod of rulership, scarab of protection, spectral shroud, wand of cure light wounds, wand of cure light wounds, wand of detect magic, wand of dispel magic (50 charges), wand of ill omen (50 charges); Other Gear +5 full plate, +5 buckler, +1 composite longbow, +3 defending domineering taurian greataxe, karzoug's burning glaive, sword of greed chellan, dusty rose prism ioun stone, lavender and green ellipsoid ioun stone, bag of holding ii, belt of physical might +6 (Str, Con), cloak of resistance +3, cloak of the bat, crystal ball with true seeing, deathwatch eyes, figurine (golden lions), gloves of dexterity, golembane scarab, headband of inspired wisdom +6, horseshoes of speed, portable hole, revelation quill, ring of freedom of movement, ring of protection +5, ring of regeneration, ring of x-ray vision, runewell amulet, sihedron tome, wayfinder, quiver, 6,064 gp, 1 sp, 9 cp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Cloak of the bat In darkness or dim light, can fly as spell, or polymorph yourself into a bat.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Horns (Taurian only) Deadly Horns (Ex): As the rog-kalem increases in
level, his horns become harder, longer and sharper. At
6th level, the critical multiplier of the rog-kalem's
horns increases to x3. At 11th level, the rog-kalem has
a +3 class bonus to critical con
Evasion (Taurian only)
Fast Healing 10 (Ex) Heal damage every round unless you are killed.
Flight (60 feet, Perfect) You can fly!
Focused Strength (Taurian only) Focused Strength (Ex): At 12th level the rog-kalem
learns to better focus himself physically. He may double
his strength modifier on any skill checks made using
strength as a full round action. Furthermore, he can
choose to use his strength modif
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of Dexterity Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th

Slot gloves; Weight 1 lb.; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6)

Description

+2 DX (add via adjusted)
This belt has a large silver buckle, usually depicting the image of a tiger. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Dexterity of +2. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the gloves are worn.

Construction Requirements

Craft Wondrous Item, cat's grace; Cost 2,000 gp (+2).

Added by DM 7-10-12 from PFRPG earlier version. There is only one pair of these!
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Immunity to Bleeds You are immune to bleeds.
Improved Evasion (Taurian only) Improved Evasion (Ex): At 15th level, the rogkalem's
evasion improves. While he still takes no
damage from a successful reflex save, he now takes ½
damage from a failed save. Like evasion, this ability
does not work if the rog-kalem is helpless.
Ioun stone (lavender and green ellipsoid, 50 spell levels) Absorbs spells of 8th level or lower.
Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Regeneration 1 Heal HP quickly and cannot die.
Revelation quill The first revelation quills were created by the followers of the Peacock Spirit. Since the fall of Thassilon, the method for creating them has been lost. The few revelation quills that remain today continue to function, drawing their revelations, it is said, from the Peacock Spirit itself. The quill is fashioned from a peacock's tail feather. Its nib is made of bone, and when held in one's hand, the quill seems strangely heavy. If placed in an empty vial or other glass container of similar size and left there for an hour, a revelation quill fills that container with ink. The ink created is of a random color 50% of the time, otherwise the ink is black.

While a revelation quill can certainly function as a standard writing implement, its true strength lies in its ability to answer questions. Once per day, if the user concentrates on a specific future goal, event, or activity occurring within the coming week, the revelation quill takes over and writes out a short phrase in response, often in the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen, much in the same way the divination spell functions. Once per week, the user may use the quill in the same way to cast contact other plane instead, asking up to 10 questions of the mysterious intellect that guides the revelation quill.

Destruction
The quill must be tricked into revealing the method of destroying itself without asking it to reveal that method.
Ring of regeneration Heal 1 point of damage and 1 point of nonlethal damage per round.
Rod of rulership (500 minutes) Command creatures within 120 feet. DC 16 Will if Int 12 or higher.
Runewell amulet This amulet of gold and red crystal grants the wearer a +5 enhancement bonus to her natural armor. In addition, the wearer becomes attuned to both the runewell of greed and the soul lens that controls it - allowing the w earer to benefit from the fragmentary souls gathered and absorbed by the runewell. As long as the runewell functions, the wearer does not age and has no need for food or water. In addition, she can fly at a speed of 60 feet with perfect maneuverability and gains fast healing 10. If the runewell amulet is removed, the wearer loses all of these abilities. While this does mean the wearer begins aging normally and must eat and drink, she does not suffer any ill effect from the years that passed or the meals she missed while she wore the amulet.

Destruction

A runewell amulet must be thrown into an active runewell of an opposing magic (a runewell of lust or a runewell of pride in the case of this particular amulet) - doing so causes the amulet to shatter into four fragments, which then scatter throughout the region that was once Thassilon. If these four fragments can be gathered and placed back in the associated runewell (the runewell of greed in this case), the amulet reforms and returns to full use.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
See in Darkness See perfectly in darkness of any kind, including magical darkness.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Spectral shroud (1/day) Become incorporeal for 10 rounds and gain fly speed equal to half base speed.
Stubborn (Ex) +2 save vs. [Charm] and [Compulsion] spells, gain a 2nd save next round if you fail.
Taurian Constitution Level 11 Ability Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, the rog-kalem's
strength increases by 1. The rog-kalem's strength
increases again at the 6th, 10th , 14th, and 18th levels.
The rog-kalem's constitution increases by 1 at 3rd level
and again at the 7th, 11th,
Taurian Constitution Level 15 Ability Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, the rog-kalem's
strength increases by 1. The rog-kalem's strength
increases again at the 6th, 10th , 14th, and 18th levels.
The rog-kalem's constitution increases by 1 at 3rd level
and again at the 7th, 11th,
Taurian Constitution Level 3 (Ex) Ability Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, the rog-kalem's
strength increases by 1. The rog-kalem's strength
increases again at the 6th, 10th , 14th, and 18th levels.
The rog-kalem's constitution increases by 1 at 3rd level
and again at the 7th, 11th,
Taurian Constitution Level 7 Ability Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, the rog-kalem's
strength increases by 1. The rog-kalem's strength
increases again at the 6th, 10th , 14th, and 18th levels.
The rog-kalem's constitution increases by 1 at 3rd level
and again at the 7th, 11th,
Taurian Gore Gore (Ex): At 1st level, the rog-kalem's natural gore
attack is considered a primary attack which receives a
full strength bonus. As the rog-kalem increases in
level, the damage done by the gore attack increases as
well. If the rog-kalem's has an
Taurian Natural Hunter Natural Hunter (Ex): At 4th level, the rog-kalem
receives a +3 class bonus to any survival skill checks.
This bonus increases to +6 at 13th level. At 13th level
the rog-kalem is considered to have the scent ability.
Taurian Natural Trapper Natural Trapper (Ex): At 8th level, the rog-kalem
recieves a +3 class bonus on any craft (traps) skill
checks. This bonus increases to +6 at 17th level.
Taurian Powerful Charge Powerful Charge (Ex)

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, its attack deals extra damage in addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge. The attack and amount of damage from the attack is given in the creature’s de
Taurian Size Increase - L Large Size (Ex): At 12th level, the rog-kalem
increases from medium to large size, receiving all the
benefits and penalties associated with being large (-1
AC, Fly, & Stealth; Attack, +1 CMB, CMD; ). His space increases to 10
feet and his reach i
Taurian Strength 10 Ability Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, the rog-kalem's
strength increases by 1. The rog-kalem's strength
increases again at the 6th, 10th , 14th, and 18th levels.
The rog-kalem's constitution increases by 1 at 3rd level
and again at the 7th, 11th,
Taurian Strength 14 Ability Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, the rog-kalem's
strength increases by 1. The rog-kalem's strength
increases again at the 6th, 10th , 14th, and 18th levels.
The rog-kalem's constitution increases by 1 at 3rd level
and again at the 7th, 11th,
Taurian Strength 2 Ability Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, the rog-kalem's
strength increases by 1. The rog-kalem's strength
increases again at the 6th, 10th , 14th, and 18th levels.
The rog-kalem's constitution increases by 1 at 3rd level
and again at the 7th, 11th,
Taurian Strength 6 Ability Increase (Ex): At 2nd level, the rog-kalem's
strength increases by 1. The rog-kalem's strength
increases again at the 6th, 10th , 14th, and 18th levels.
The rog-kalem's constitution increases by 1 at 3rd level
and again at the 7th, 11th,
Toughness Taurian
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Wand of dispel magic (50 charges) Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
Wand of ill omen (50 charges) Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).

Note: This item costs only 250 gp for members of the Pathfinder Society

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

As he is level 16, I'd like to bump up all the encounters and challenges in Kingmaker to match the challenge a normal party would have. For instance, most encounters in chapter 1 are CR 1/3-CR 3. If a PC is level 1 for the Cr 1 encounter, that's an AVERAGE difficulty level encounter. Therefore, the modified encounter would be AVERAGE for the level 16, and the CR would be 16. i don't have a problem with this.

we are unsure how to compute his Average Party Level (APL). Normally, APL is based on a group of at least 4. For instance, a group of level 16's would be APL 16. But that's 4 of them. Being by himself, we figured his APL may be his level divided by 4, putting him at APL 4. That seems a bit odd at first glance, but action economy really begins to make a difference.

We playtested the character at APL with several different encounters:

Average Encounter trials (APL 4)

He beat 9 Goblins, but it took him 9 rounds; he only lost 2 HP.

He beat 2 Bugbears in 2 rounds. No damage taken.

He then fought a regular Minotaur, killing it in one round.

Hard Encounter trials (APL 5)

12 Goblins

1 Mummy

Both of the above he killed in one round, no damage.

Challenging Encounter trials (APL 6)

6 Giant Spiders were killed on 3 rounds

While a Babeau Demon was wiped out in a round.

Epic Encounter Trials (APL 7)

1 Serpent Folk teamed up with an Ettercap but were killed in 2rounds.

A Frost Drake was killed after two rounds, but did do 23 points of damage.

He then fought a lich and a Purple worm, which took him down to 64 HP out of his high. Howwever, the lich and worm were wiped away.

Finally, he fought A cloud giant and a treant at the same time, and killed them handily.

As you can see, his melee is superior; his defenses against flying is quite lacking, and he has some trouble vs. a spellcaster if they have allies shielding.

APL 4 seems far too easy, so we are trying to find that sweet spot where the challenging aspect is there but he's not in danger of being wiped out by much larger, stronger creatures. By the way, this character was the only one to survive the assault on the big baddie at the end of RoftRL, in part due to protective magic and waiting the bad guy out.

Any comments?

Grand Lodge **

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I get the whole scheme of brining in new players and creating an atmosphere of playability. Indeed, jumping in now is quite daunting, but I don’t understand how creating an entire new mode campaign addresses the underlying issues without affecting other aspect of the game.

I’m actually worried about unintended consequences. Now the new players will just be confused when they enter a room and see different “modes.” I may be incorrect on my interpretation of the new system, but it appears to me that the changes were 1) made for new players 2) made for experienced players to play with new players.

It’s been stated that also 1) GMs were complaining about carrying tons of books 2) 300 replay options open up 3) provide a better play experience when in a group of munchkin players.

Addressing the above, I know GMs complain about having to carry all the books around; but I usually never saw a GM at my years at GenCon carrying around a ton of books anyway. In my area I’m a GM and I usually don’t carry everything, either. Replayability is nice and everything, but it isn’t really in this case. We still can’t replay in the same mode on most scenarios. I would argue most replays are done by experienced people anyway.

I do see a good issue, and that’s encouraging more GMs. The new mode seems to encourage new players and have experienced players play with them, including pairing down the options for those experienced players so they don’t run the table; but won’t this happen anyway? Experienced players can simply maximize their builds, and they will likely know what happens in the scenario. <p>
Large conventions will be more confusing with two modes…already players need to figure out which tier to play as well as which adventure. Planning ahead can only do so much; what if you lose your group or your guy dies?

I’m not yet convinced the new system will solve the issues it tries to without causing more.

concerns about the availability of replay, new players being overwhelmed or overshadowed by over-optimized characters, Chronicle sheet rewards not having much meaning, and other concerns related to the sheer amount of information and options available to PFS players

Grand Lodge **

I agree that scenarios seem to be a bit easy, but I recognize my experience isn't representative. I always hear people talk about Bonekeep as if it was a player killer, a tough-as-nails scenario where people die. My characters have done all stages of Bonekeep, and never did the party wipe or come close to TPK, and Bonekeep 3 was all pregens except for my buddy and I! This year at GenCon, they made an announcement that if your player died, you had to go to the HQ/front area and tell them you were dead and they would announce it. About 5 minutes in one person had already died, but then we literally didn’t hear another death announced for hours.

None of the regular scenarios I’ve played in as a character have been too challenging. Never* have my PCs even came close to death except my rogue in Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment and that was due in part to playing up. As a GM, though, I have killed about 5 PCs over the past two years, but these were inexperienced players. In the 4 years I’ve played at GenCon alone, only 3 characters in my party have ever died…ever. Is this representative? Who knows?

What about more reward for GMs, in order to attract more GMs? Perhaps allowing them the entire GM chronicle sheet and additional benefits. I play with a group of about 7 or 8 (not all at once) and nobody is interested in being a GM in part because it’s a lot of work for little reward, in their minds. I would like to see GM credit given for all scenarios GMed, even if it’s something like a “slow track” count. I don’t plan on re-GMing any scenario because I won’t get anything for it.

Table size can be a problem. I’d argue that most of the time (50%+1) it is an “issue” but not a problem. Almost always at PFS events when I’m an active player, there is newbie who (rightfully so) can slow the game down and that long-term, active player who also slows things down in various sorts of ways. 6-7 people are a lot of time in combat, especially when GMs are not prepared. This year at GenCon was the worst year ever for me as a player. Most of my GMs were lackluster; one was wholly unprepared and didn’t even know basic rules. The Sunday morning games are par for the course laid back and fraught with bad possibilities due to burnout, which I can understand. I’m burnt out by that point as well.

I will say being a GM for a Con, which I have never done and will not do (as this is the only time I get to actually play a character), must be very hard work, especially if you’re running several different scenarios. I’d pull my hair out by Friday afternoon. I don’t know what it was this year, maybe overworked GMs?

Player material could be an issue. There are so many options for players to min/max while the monsters usually aren’t made to take advantage of the new options (in my low opinion). I believe many GMs aren’t even aware of some of the options and usually ask to check it out. There is also no audit system whatsoever. I know we are supposed to keep track of gold spent and items bought, but honestly, I don’t use the tracking sheet and I’ve never seen anyone else, either. I use herolab, so fortunately it shows my value, total spent, etc. I know for certain on many occasions people had the wrong numbers on their sheet; as a GM myself, if something seems off I’ll ask to check it out- I’ve only seen this once at GenCon since I’ve been going (2010).

I hate more paperwork, though, so I’m not sure how to audit or make players honest; although I’d say the majority of the time they are honest mistakes. I saw one guy who was getting huge AC bonuses incorrectly, wielding a two-handed polearm while carrying a tower shield and a heavy crossbow…the GM was not very perceptive.

Trying to tweak balance, though, is extremely hard. I hate killing player characters (contrary to my players’ beliefs), especially in PFS. Adding a monster here and there can affect groups differently. Adding a high hit point monster to a group with majority melee will have a different result than one with majority magic….perhaps the devs are erring on the side of allowing players to live over player death. On the face of it having BBEG know the party’s strengths and buff ahead of time may be a strategy that could work, as the PFS Guide does say the GM can do this. I always like it, though, when high level players in home games are aghast and shocked that an enemy is buffed, had used divination, or gotten themselves ready just like the PCs did, as if the enemy lived in a vacuum! Sometimes players simply don’t realize that the powerful evil guy has the same access to magic, resources, etc. as they do? If the PC is min-maxing, then the evil guy would, too!

I agree on “vital info.” I just finished RotRL in my home campaign, and “vital info” was all over the place. I noticed this was Season 5, too. This slows down GMs, unless they repeatedly GM a scenario and commit it to heart (which some won’t do because they only run it once or twice as GM). I do like Season 5 brought in more roleplaying other than strictly combat events. The most memorable scenarios I’ve had were ones where roleplaying stood out (usually by the GM).

One thing is for certain- I don’t want to turn away new players by making the game difficult to play, to learn, or having fun by being bored.

I would love to see numbers on class, race, player death, scenario success breakdown from year to year.

I suppose as well that “easy” and “hard” refer to the combats in a scenario, too. Sometimes the “hard” is the roleplaying challenges but the party is so good at that they fail to realize it and since the combat went easy they may say as a whole it was easy. The entire idea is very complex because you have so many different variables in the GM, each player, each scenario, each character. It’s nearly impossible to balance to all those, on top of making everyone happy (which is not feasible, as I know, I’m in politics). I love the strategy of the combat in the game, but my most fun moments are from roleplaying; beauty is in the eye of the beholder (whatever that is) ;)

Grand Lodge **

So I Gm'd the first Chapter of Rise of the Runelords, Burnt Offerings.

The chronicle says for normal advancement 4,800 (Tier 3-5). It also contains "Items found during this scenario," and the normal list of purchasable items.

As a GM, I know I can apply this to an existing PFS character levels 3-5. If I apply it to a level 1-2, that character must wait until level 3 to apply. Can it be applied to a level 7 character?

Besides applying it to different levels, does the full amount of gold go to the character, too? How about the "items found?"

Grand Lodge

I've just read a lot of other posts that seem to suggest mental spells stayed with the wizard while body-type spells would stay with the ally.

Grand Lodge

If a wizard wanted to give his ally Undead Anatomy (which is a personal-cast spell) couldn't he simply Magic Jar into his ally, cast this spell, turn the ally's body into an undead form, then end magic jar?

Thus giving his ally the undead form?

Grand Lodge

If a symbol of X is placed on an object, then made permanent, what happens after the symbol is triggered? Does it go away, or come back due to permanancy?

If it stays on, is it always on at that point, does the trigger need to be "reset," what action would it entail?

Grand Lodge

I'll be keeping an eye on this one-

But Pathfinder is my game now! I'm not sure my brain could handle learning an entirely new rules set combined with PFRPG.

I do like the art, though.

Grand Lodge

I've been letting my PC's explore an area by:

Shadowalk was cast, and the characters spend the rolled hours travelling to the ethereal plane, where upon they then enter that plane and begin searching a city, mapping it and noting locations of persons, places, and things.

When they finish, they pretty much go to where they want and shadowalk back.

It all seems a bit far fetched (although thinking about it, the act of doing any planeswalking is farfetched). I just wanted to make sure I was ruling on this correctly.

I understand there are dangers involved with travelling the Shadow Plane, but would the characters necessarily know where to enter the Ethereal Plane? If they did know, when they finally arrived, where on the Ethereal Plane would they arrive? Back where they started from on the Prime Material Plane, or somewhere else?

The PCs want to explore without being seen basically.

Grand Lodge

WOW. What a major error.

Thank Desna you guys and gals are one of the best-edited games out there, and that the content inside will be 100% quality.

Look at it this way- it'll be a collector edition, just like rare coins!

You made a solid choice on not destroying thousands of perfectly suitable books and saved money in the process.

I look forward the book.

Grand Lodge

To make life simpler since no developer has commented, just use the simple "if FOM doesn't state the effect, it doesn't negate it."

Otherwise, you'll have people trying to say you can indeed walk out of an adamantine wall, which is simply not what this level of spell is intended to do.

Grand Lodge **

DM Beckett wrote:

I'd like to see a Faction devoted to unlocking mysteries, lore, and myth from the purely Divine Magic side of things. Like I said in the other thread about a Nature based faction, I just think it's too broad and, well, not really needed to be a full Faction, and the concept can easily fit into nearly any existing or coming Faction.

It also seems like a potential excuse for some players to mess with others 'cause it's what their character would do. "No you can't cast a fireball here, you might burn the forest." kind of in the same vein as the old necro vs paladin/cleric arguments, when people take it to the extreme.

The same could be said about divine magic factions...

Grand Lodge

Setup:

A huge creature is standing in front of a sheer cliff drop. Another huge creature is bullrushing the one right by the cliff. No part of the creature's base is off the cliff.

The bullrusher succeeds in only moving the cliff enemy 5 feet...the enemy of the bullrusher is now pushed back 5 feet and thus has 1/3 of his base off the cliff, but 2/3 still on it.

What in the world would the DC be for the creature on the cliff, especially when 2/3 of him are still on the solid surface?

X= ground
E= Creature on Cliff

Pre bullrush:

XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXEEEXXXXX

After bullrush:

EEE
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Also, will the bullrusher, who is large, need to move adjacent to the opponent he is bullrushing, or can this be done with the huge creature reach?

In the above example, let's say the Bullrusher is B. Is the placement correct, if he bullrushed from 15 feet?

EEE
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXBBBXXXXX
XXXXXBBBXXXXX
XXXXXBBBXXXXX

Grand Lodge

Setup:

A huge creature is standing in front of a sheer cliff drop. Another huge creature is bullrushing the one right by the cliff. No part of the creature's base is off the cliff.

The bullrusher succeeds in only moving the cliff enemy 5 feet...the enemy of the bullrusher is now pushed back 5 feet and thus has 1/3 of his base off the cliff, but 2/3 still on it.

What in the world would the DC be for the creature on the cliff, especially when 2/3 of him are still on the solid surface?

X= ground
E= Creature on Cliff

Pre bullrush:
_____________
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXEEEXXXXX

After bullrush:

_____EEE_____
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Also, will the bullrusher, who is large, need to move adjacent to the opponent he is bullrushing, or can this be done with the huge creature reach?

In the above example, let's say the Bullrusher is B. Is the placement correct, if he bullrushed from 15 feet?

_____EEE_____
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXEEEXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXBBBXXXXX
XXXXXBBBXXXXX
XXXXXBBBXXXXX

Grand Lodge

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Recently, my players and I came across the spell Freedom of Movement. I hate to bring this thread up again as there have been many before, but I wanted to try out some new ideas and try to hash out a better ruling. Unfortunately, the developers have not FAQ’d or even commented on the spell as far as I know besides one instance. If someone knows of a place for this, please, I beg, you, point me in that direction.

And to be sure, I know it’s the DM’s call, but it’s fun to hash these things out (unless the players is a whiner and argues at the table slowing everything down)!

One of the players questioned the wording of the spell and while I disagree initially with his interpretation, I see where he comes from. Also, I play wizards in PFS, and the breadth and power of the spell is important to my characters, so I wanted to see what PFS experiences have been had as well as home games.

Unfortunately, the wording of the spell is what is causing all the trouble. Or maybe, we are all looking at this way too literally or just not doing something right, either of which is a possibility to be sure!

RAW:

DESCRIPTION
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

Let’s break down the written rules:

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell…

This sentence by itself means literally what it says. I realize with all rules, they have literal meaning and interpretive meaning, which is what causes the hang up sometimes. Being a DM, I tend toward interpretive, “spirit-of-the-law” meaning over literal text. However, this spell is one where it’s hard to tell.

Therefore, some would argue by the above sentence, it can be inferred that a creature, under any effect or condition or happenstance, should be able to move and attack normally.

The next sentence focuses on the “spirit” of the spell, and adds:

even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.

This is what I generally think of FOM as- useful to counter holds, paralysis, etc. All spells, by the way. However the sentence states with the word “even” that other things happening to the character will also be negated and allow them to move and attack normally:

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.

The word “even” is saying that the following spells and conditions are also negated. So, for instance, if the character was under the influence of manacles, then FOM would “even” allow the character to negate that along with the rest of the listed conditions and spells.

But the spell continues to list certain situations:

All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

One good question that could be answered is:

Does FOM only protect against the conditions/events/happenstances/influences actually listed in the spell?

This would certainly clear up any confusion the first sentence presents.

If this is not the case, however, than what are the conditions/events/happenstances/influences that FOM does not protect against, and how far will the spell go?

For instance, if a player were to argue the first sentence is correct (which they have), then many things could happen, because for the first sentence to be used as “law” than it must be applied evenly to all conditions/events/happenstances/influences! Otherwise, the argument collapses.

It could simply be argued that since the developers wrote the spell as such, that it must be literal, and that by including the word “even” it is a broad ruling and meant to include all conditions/events/happenstances/influences:

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of...[\i]
So if a player is using this sentence, then there is a plethora of conditions/events/happenstances/influences that can be overcome:

1. Broken legs. Broken legs prevents the creature from moving and attacking normally. Therefore, as per RAW, the creature with broken legs and FOM can move and attack normally.
2. Death. Death prevents the creature from moving and attacking normally. Therefore, as per RAW, the dead creature FOM can move and attack normally.
3. Armor Penalty. Armor reduces movement. Therefore, as per RAW, the creature with the armor penalty and FOM can move and attack normally.
4. A solid rock wall…
5. Difficult Terrain…
6. Ignore swim/climb speeds
7. Do characters who jump off a ship “fall” to the bottom of the sea?
a. Jason Buhlman did respond on this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mh3s?Freedom-of-Movement-Underwater#1) thread regarding water movement.
8. Can someone under a FoM spell be tripped, grappled, and bull rushed?
9. RavingDork once added:
a. Will it protect you from any of the following (Y/N)?
b. - a stirge's attach ability
c. - an ooze's engulf ability
d. - a thrown net
e. - the entangle spell
f. - the hold person spell
g. - the web spell
h. - being tied up - being buried under an avalanche
i. - penalties for squeezing
j. - a mud elemental's entrap ability
k. - movement penalties for being blind
l. - a giant spider's web ability
m. - an air elemental's whirlwind or a water elemental's vortex

All the above, if the player using the first sentence is correct, would indeed apply.

When trying to figure out the limits of FOM, I like to bring up the spell Freedom:

[i]DESCRIPTION
The subject is freed from spells and effects that restrict movement, including binding, entangle, grappling, imprisonment, maze, paralysis, petrification, pinning, sleep, slow, stunning, temporal stasis, and web. To free a creature from imprisonment or maze, you must know its name and background, and you must cast this spell at the spot where it was entombed or banished into the maze.

Freedom specifically mentions other conditions/events/happenstances/influences like stun. Does this indeed mean that FOM is limited to only those conditions/events/happenstances/influences that are listed in the spell description after all? I’d say it’s highly likely. But the player who argues that the first sentence is the tell-all of the spell wouldn't have much of an argument now. Otherwise, why would a higher level spell be available? If we take the first-sentence-is-law argument, then there would be no need for the spell Freedom, as FOM would cover everything listed in Freedom.

In closing, I think FOM should be limited to only those conditions/events/happenstances/influences which are actually listed in the spell in order to make things much easier without an official FAQ on the matter and endless arguments about certain scenarios.
I made a list of certain conditions/events/happenstances/influences which FOM or Freedom would cover and thus will no doubt cause many a debate.

Tiny creature in a gale force winds – FOM nor Freedom wouldn’t help. It can be argued that the wind isn’t impeding your movement…you can actually go with the wind and therefore it can be argued it is perhaps increasing your speed! This first one is why unless the spell specifically states the conditions/events/happenstances/influences, then it shouldn’t apply. However, this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pgvg?Freedom-of-Movement#1) mentions a boss in an AP being protected by FOM from high winds…not sure of the validity of the statement or which AP it was, though, but if a precedent is set than it certainly is gold.

Terrain effects: Neither FOM or Freedom would work, since Difficult Terrain is not mentioned.

Armor penalty: Neither FOM or Freedom would work

Etc, etc.

Simply, if the FOM or Freedom spell does not mention the conditions/events/happenstances/influences, then everything else falls in line and makes sense.

Grand Lodge

Scenario:

A character is hanging on the edge of a ledge by his hands. An enemy is flying next to him, able to attack. The character knows the enemy is there.

The question is, which condition applies to the character in this instance?

1. Prone
2. Flat-Footed
3. No condition
4. Hybrid of Prone
5. Other

1. Prone seems to make a bit of sense, but then again it doesn't, as prone specifically states "ground."

2. Flat-Footed may be the better option over prone, but flat-footed seems to be applied only when surprised.

3. Surely there must be some adjustment or condition applied in the case.

4. What about just splitting the difference with prone and making the number -2/+2?

5. Any other suggestions?

Grand Lodge

I'd like to do True Dungeon, but after all the other costs associated with going to GenCon it's prohibitive for me and my friends due to its cost. Plus, it would take time away from PFS!

Grand Lodge **

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm glad the aasimar and tiefling races are going back to boons only. It was annoying to have 3+ of these races at the table; I would venture to say over half the players using them took the race simply for the race benefits, not giving a damn about backstory.

Now I only hope the table isn't made up of furries...

Grand Lodge

Haha yep- software I'm using...

Grand Lodge

Is there any reason why a Magus should not be able to wear Gloves of Reconnaissance?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
KahnyaGnorc wrote:

Here is my opinion:

-You don't have a right for other people to pay for your stuff.

(Also, Hobby Lobby covers most contraceptives, it is only a subset of those, like the morning after pill, that they objected to covering)

Someone's boss, likewise, doesn't have the right to decide their employee's health care decisions. Remember, too, that employees actually pay for their insurance, so it's not like it's free.

Grand Lodge

Can a fighter who uses a two-handed weapon (THW)also use a rod of absorption? it would seem that this should not be allowed.

I can imagine the argument for it's use:

When the fighter isn't in combat, he can carry his THW in one hand and the rod in the other. In combat, when he isn't attacking, he can still keep the rod in the other hand, just like a fighter using a small buckler while using a THW

This seems like a play on the rules and I don't think I'd allow this....for the same reason I don't allow players to hold 4 reach weapons on them. It's just ridiculous.

Grand Lodge

Duh, of course it would- our main question was whether a natural 20 would result in success.

Grand Lodge

If a wizard is using Limited Wish to dispel Baleful Polymorph, does it simply happen automatically, as per the spell, or does a caster level check still need to be made?

"A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 4th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as insanity."

It is my understanding that since breaking the Baleful Polymorph spell is like the spells dispel magic or Break Enchantment, then the last line of the Limited Wish spells must be adhered to:

"A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 1,500 gp diamond component for this spell)."

Thus it would appear a caster level check would still be needed?

Grand Lodge

I see, because it's a caster level check, which are do not have auto-succeeds with natural 20 rolls.

Thanks!

Grand Lodge

If a wizard tries to dispel an effect and fails, can he simply re-memorize the dispel magic spell and try it again on the same effect?

For instance, a creature is polymorphed. The wizard has plenty of time to keep resting and gaining dispel magic again...to use on the polymorphed creature. In a situation like this, wouldn't the wizard eventually dispel the effect?

Is a natural 20 on a dispel roll an automatic dispel?

Grand Lodge

All good ideas.

I will most likely remove the "hireling" option from the player and allow him to then run his character only.

Then, I'll likely create 3 NPC characters which I will control and who will be int he party with him and advance; that way I won't have to scale adventures back and change published material. Ain't nobody got time for that.

We actually played this way several years ago; I used 3 NPCs but then got away from it because I felt the player wasn't getting much time for play...what with me controlling 3 turns, plus the enemies turns.

But that was far better than thumb twiddling, kept the player's mind clear, and allowed him to focus on his guy more. Plus, it did add a bit of roleplaying and story element...

Actually, i think I can just ask my player what sort of classes he'd like to adventure with, and I'll roll up whatever he likes and use them, rather than have me arbitrarily do so.

Grand Lodge

AH - just found this thread...post by James Jacobs:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kqm0?Ability-Score-Damage-Penalty-and-Drain#16

"Bestow Curse: This spell decreases your ability score. This effect works more or less like ability drain."

Grand Lodge

Can the Int and Cha drop caused by failing the Intelligence check be cured by using restoration or other ability damage or drain repairing spells or does the victim just have to wait until it wears off?

"Avoid Int/Cha Decrease: You must succeed on an Intelligence check against this DC to avoid a decrease in Intelligence and Charisma. You cannot take 10 on this check. If the check fails, your Intelligence and Charisma scores each fall to 8 for the stated duration, and you become unable to cast arcane spells. If you lose Intelligence and Charisma, the effect strikes as soon as the first question is asked, and no answer is received. If a successful contact is made, roll d% to determine the type of answer you gain."

Grand Lodge

If a cold attack occurs on a person wearing the Ring, will the affect negate or have influence on the actual cold damage as per the ring/spell?

For instance, a cold attack occurs. The Ring says "If the wearer takes damage..." thus, the damage occurs first, then the ring activates. OR, does the ring activate BEFORE the damage occurs?

Wording is confusing, especially when it also says "...protecting the wearer from THE cold damage as per the spell."

For an example, a white dragon breathes on a fighter wearing the ring. The damage dealt is 30 points of damage. Does the fighter receive 30 points of damage and then the ring activates, allowing fire shield for the next cold attack, if any; OR does the ring activate before the 30 points occurs and the fighter takes only 15?

Ring of Immolation
Aura moderate evocation; CL 10th
Slot ring; Price 40,000 gp.

DESCRIPTION
A ring of immolation appears as two ashen gray hands clasping each other; the ring itself is made of pumice and hardened ash, but is as strong as metal. As a free action, the wearer can activate the ring to create a fire shield (warm) on himself. The wearer of a ring of immolation can activate a fire shield on himself for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the fire shield need not be consecutive rounds. If the wearer takes magical cold damage, the ring automatically activates for one round if any rounds remain, protecting the wearer from the cold damage as per the spell.

Grand Lodge

A local store is already selling this...do they get advanced copies or something?

Grand Lodge

lol I knew it was coming....

Grand Lodge

As the subject says, can a cleric use this on themselves?

Touch of Glory (Sp): You can cause your hand to shimmer with divine radiance, allowing you to touch a creature as a standard action and give it a bonus equal to your cleric level on a single Charisma-based skill check or Charisma ability check. This ability lasts for 1 hour or until the creature touched elects to apply the bonus to a roll. You can use this ability to grant the bonus a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

It says only a "creature touched" so...

Grand Lodge

If a creature has regeneration, and is at negative HP, does it still need to roll a Constitution check to keep from losing another point?

Does the regeneration ability automatically stabilize a creature?

Grand Lodge

guess not

Grand Lodge

Ah, I think it appears the bolded language you point is our answer:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Format: At will—burning hands (DC 13); Location: Spell-Like Abilities.

The entire thing messed us up due to the ability being in the "aura" section...

Grand Lodge

The Marilith says it's "aura" is constant.

Looking up the spell Unholy Aura, the spell says it's a burst (a one-time event for those in radius).

However, if the listing says the aura is constant, does that mean the radius burst is always in effect, or that the effects of the spell are always in effect?

Grand Lodge

The PCs are fighting a Marilith Demon, which has an aura of Unholy Aura:

Unholy Aura
School abjuration [evil]; Level cleric/oracle 8; Domain evil 8; Bloodline abyssal 8
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a tiny reliquary worth 500 gp)
EFFECT
Range 20 ft.
Targets one creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

DESCRIPTION
A malevolent darkness surrounds the subjects, protecting them from attacks, granting them resistance to spells cast by good creatures, and weakening good creatures when they strike the subjects. This abjuration has four effects:

Each warded creature gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saves. Unlike the effect of protection from good, this benefit applies against all attacks, not just against attacks by good creatures.
A warded creature gains spell resistance 25 against good spells and spells cast by good creatures.
The abjuration protects the subjects from possession and mental influence, just as protection from good does.
If a good creature succeeds on a melee attack against a warded creature, the offending attacker takes 1d6 points of Strength damage (Fortitude negates).

It seems to me the aura is actually only on the Marilith, although that could certainly be incorrect. If it is not, then per the wording of the spell, the section 1 seems to imply every creature, even enemies of the Marilith, will get that portion of the bonus granted. That wouldn't make sense at all.

Grand Lodge

Wow Hilde,

Was that done through a software program?

Grand Lodge

My submission

Shush
Male Halfling Rogue 1
NG Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +6; Senses Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 11 (1d8+3)
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +1; +2 vs. fear
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 15 ft.
Melee rapier +1 (1d4/18-20) and
rapier +1 (1d4/18-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD 13
Feats Two-weapon Fighting
Traits chance savior, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +7 (-1 jump), Climb -1, Disable Device +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (history) +1, Knowledge (local) +4, Perception +6 (+7 to locate traps), Stealth +9, Use Magic Device +5; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Climb, +2 Perception
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ hero points, trapfinding +1
Combat Gear oil (3); Other Gear studded leather, rapier, rapier, backpack, bullseye lantern, pathfinder's kit, thieves' tools, 28 gp, 7 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Chance Savior Fate smiled on you and Professor Lorrimor one day in the not so distant past. Through a matter of pure chance, you were in a position to save the late scholar's life and did so. His gratitude was effusive, and he promised that he would never forget y
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.

Shush hails from Egorian. His actual name is Drais Rakerrusk. His slave name was Bit. He now claims a home outside of Almas in Andoran, preferring the quiet countryside to living in a city.

Shush was born to Halfling parents in Egorian, living on the streets until caught stealing at a young age. He was then sent into slavery, owned by a middle-rank autocrat and his wife. He served them until the age of 22, at which point he quickly tired of that life.

Always curious and never satisfied, he began to realize the benefits of living under the foot of a slavemaster did not outweigh freedom. He engineered his escape and his masters’ demise, fleeing Cheliax and ending up in Almas. He took with him only a few objects, a small pile of gold, and the clothes on his back. He currently works for an Andoran bureaucrat, having good working knowledge of government administration. On the side, he makes money gambling and doing odd jobs.

Shush is a utility rogue that will fight when he needs to and stab an enemy in the back when he wants to. He received word concerning the Professor's death and has traveled to Ravengro.

Grand Lodge

I also just thought of this one: what if someone is charmed?!

If someone fell under the spell Command, this technically removes their "movement" and gives it to another... hence the slippery slope of a broad, RAW interpretation.

Does anyone happen to know what the 1st and/or 2nd edition ADnD described the spell as?

I'm having trouble even finding a spell called FOM in those editions, yet I remember a spell doing this similar thing.

Grand Lodge

Ipslore the Red wrote:
nogoodscallywag wrote:
Sindalla wrote:

You know, at first, I thought, "this is ridiculous, your players are trying to abuse the system."

I went ahead and read the whole spell to see if something was missed and here you go.

PFSRD wrote:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
Daze and Staggered are as much a debilitation to your movement as paralysis, on an even lower scale actually. I guess a case truly can be made here. Good find!
However, Staggered doesn't impose penalty to movement, RAW it says nothing about it. As Staggered, no movement his hindered. A character can move his full speed if they want.

Yes, it does. There is no way to say that it doesn't, since FoM specifically counteracts slow. What does slow do? This:

slow wrote:
Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions).
Slow makes you staggered. Slow impedes your movement. FoM specifically makes you immune to slow because it impedes your movement. Staggered impedes your movement. FoM makes you immune to staggered.

Ipslore, some cold hard facts are necessary here:

Slow-

An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.

Slow specifically reduces SPEED with this sentence: "A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed..."

Hence the reason FOM is usually good for defense vs. this spell, along with Hold spells...which specifically state the victim gains the paralyzed condition...which in turn FOM specifically provides for in the text.

The staggered condition does not REDUCE SPEED. You still have your normal speed.

FOM does not say anything about immunity to staggered condition.

So if you are arguing that anything which "impedes" movement is negated by FOM, then literally anything which impedes movement is negated by FOM! Thus, all the above events I mentioned are negated by FOM. Think about that. I'm pretty sure that's not what the spell in intended for, and that is is intended for effects that REDUCE SPEED (Speed being the actual modified base speed listed under race and modified for weight, etc.). Also, intended for the actual listed items in the spell.

Otherwise, going by your idea, a humanoid with both legs broken has the ability to move at his normal speed because his broken legs are reducing his SPEED.

Grand Lodge

Any chance of this game picking back up?

Grand Lodge

Sindalla wrote:

You know, at first, I thought, "this is ridiculous, your players are trying to abuse the system."

I went ahead and read the whole spell to see if something was missed and here you go.

PFSRD wrote:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
Daze and Staggered are as much a debilitation to your movement as paralysis, on an even lower scale actually. I guess a case truly can be made here. Good find!

However, Staggered doesn't impose penalty to movement, RAW it says nothing about it. As Staggered, no movement his hindered. A character can move his full speed if they want.

Grand Lodge

I'm not sure FOM cares whether the limitation on actions, attacks, movement, etc. are mental or physical. But that's not the point and doesn't change the issue at hand.

I think FOM means DIRECT movement or attack limitations, not indirect. Using this key phrase would make sense to me and to the list, above, because there is a plethora of indirect limitations on attack and movement that occur to a character or monster.

Grand Lodge

RAW, which I do not think should be the case says :

enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell,.

Therefore, RAW, *anything* that hinders, impedes, etc. "normal" (how to define normal?!) are negated. Thus, the following, per RAW (which I've stated I do not believe is the intention of the 4th level spell), the spell negates things, no matter the source of the effect, such as:

Being buried in any substance
Moving with catastrophic broken legs, etc.
Armor penalty reductions
Any environmental effect that could hinder movement like wind, water, rough terrain (does this then include solid stone for those without burrowing?)
Squeezed penalty
Negate all conditions which impose any sort of attack or movement impediment such as daze or staggered or prone
Spells like Power Word Stun or other mental effects
What about a creature that is in your way???
Condition modifiers to attack and movement like prone.
Any effect that would cause the loss of even one attack in a full round action.
A zombie who has a natural condition of staggered…

Per RAW, *anything* which renders a character unable to move or attack IN ANY way would be negated by FOM.

That's why I believe the intention of the spell is not RAW, but more intended for things that impose attack or movement reduction DIRECTLY, not indirectly.

Therefore, if we read FOM as RAW we need to read Staggered per RAW as well, and Staggered DOES NOT PER RAW limit normal movement, it only limits actions; it can certainly be argued that a double-move is not normal movement and thus it does not impede normal movement and FOM wouldn't do anything for staggered per RAW- hence the importance of clarifying what the spells can and cannot do with all situations and making sure RAW is being adhered to in both instances.

Grand Lodge

Agreed with Pauper, but it does so indirectly. I'm not so sure FOM protects againstindirect movement impediment.

Grand Lodge

staggered condition doesn't directly impede it, however. You are able to move.

What if someone is squeezing? would the penalty to movement be the only effected thing?

Grand Lodge

That's what I tend to think, but players are saying the spell :

"This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web."[/b]

So it would appear the language is very vague. Even if the effect is mental, FOM may negate it?

Grand Lodge

Hmmm...I tend to agree except my players are making a good argument. The first part of FOM does say: "This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell..."

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