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so, i know it's getting close to the deadline but I'm really feeling like Micah's current background/personality isn't heroic enough for the feel you're looking for... I think I may completely rework him. Today is busy but I think I can put a good amount of time into him before the end of the week.
what was the final ruling on the squire feat? it literally becomes leadership at 7th level so really it just lets you spend your 5th level feat instead of your 7th level feat?
we don't need a full arcane caster but in a sandbox style game I definitely think they help... i mean, i'm building the adventures around you and your decisions so we all have some control over how necessary one is but they do bring a lot to the table in terms of utility and problem solving...
i'll look at the other thread and see who's available from it (and how they were with posting and whatnot) and we can go from there.
Sorry for my delay- things have been a disaster at work this past week and I just haven't had the emotional/intellectual resources to write anything at all. I think we turned a corner today and I might get something up today (though I have a pretty full day of meetings). I will definitely get something up by tomorrow afternoon.
Sorry (again)- things at work apparently had to get worse before they could get better and I just haven't had the emotional/intellectual resources to write anything at all. I think we turned a corner today and I might get something up (though I have a pretty full day of meetings). Apologies for the delay, I will get something up by tomorrow afternoon.
It's still mid-afternoon and any rooms or hallways with windows will have sufficient light for you to see, albeit dimly on the east side. There were no light sources in the throne room but in the entry way outside it there are two lampstands with the oil still burning.
Sorry I haven't made a real post in a little while: partly I've been waiting for you all to get your course of action settled, and partly I got blindsided by a $h!t-storm at work this week. I'm hoping to make a real post tonight and if Rin hasn't posted anything by then I'll send her with the unstealthy party and PM her to make sure everything's ok.
Well, if I'm designing it I'd make it a talent not a feat. Broad Study requires 6 levels of magus and levels in another spellcasting class; 6 levels of alchemist/investigator seems like a good parallel but 'levels in another class that creates extracts' defeats the purpose of the ability so I'll replace that with brew potion (because it's really thematic and implies spellcasting ability). That should be enough for most spells. Personal only spells probably need a little more- the brown-fur transmuter has to pay 1 arcane point each time it casts a personal spell on someone else, so 1 inspiration seems fair for crafting an extract; they can't do that until 9th but in a non-gestalt game you'd have to be at least 7th level overall to use this and it's not as flexible in terms of spending your points so it should be ok I think...
Extract Expert (alchemist discovery)
Benefits: You have learned to apply alchemical principles to another form of spellcasting. When you gain this discovery select one spellcasting class. When you prepare your daily extracts you can choose to craft extracts for spells from that class. These extracts follow all the normal rules for extracts, occupy a spell slot or spell per day of its spell level, and can only be created for spells that target a creature or creatures and have a casting time of one round or less. Spells with a range of personal may be created as extracts normally but you must spend one inspiration point to craft one as an infusion.
Special: This discovery is available as an option to investigators selecting the alchemist discovery talent.
Or something like that? Subject to GM approval, of course.
There's not actually a cap on the spell level for infusions, it's just that investigators only get up to 6th level for their extracts. If you (GM) want to create a mechanic for higher level brews you could take inspiration from the magus arcana 'broad study' (which lets you use spells from another class with magus class abilities) to create a discovery that lets you make extracts/infusions of spells from another class. It sounds like that would pretty well accomplish what he wants?
Just make sure that it has an appropriate cost (in prerequisites, or a crafting cost or something) because an ability like that would allow him to give out buffs that are normally personal only. The brown-fur transmuter (arcanist) can already do that (so there's precedent), but they have to spend an arcane point every time- so maybe make it cost a point of inspiration to craft an extract for another class?
The infusion discovery for your extracts lets you do that with up to 6th level spells (that was the idea behind the brewmaster guy that I had pitched during recruitment). On the witch side, the cauldron hex gets you brew potion as early as 1st level... The herb witch archetype pushes that back to 2nd but gives a 1st level ability that could go really well with your concept.
Crafting actual potions for spells beyond 3rd level would have to up to the GM but in previous editions it requires a whole prestige class not just a feat. For magical beers though... You could probably take craft wondrous item and follow the rules for crafting single use items? They would be a lot like feather tokens only instead of breaking a feather you'd drink the beer- I don't think there's any cap on the spell level for single use items (IIRC).
crossbow is inferior to bow, the combat styles don't change that. honestly, you'll be better off as a bow wielding switch hitter, especially with your stats. if you want to be a crossbow switch hitter (that can keep up with an archery switch hitter) you almost need to switch to a bolt ace gunslinger/skald... you'd keep full BAB and all good saves but lose some skill points, spells, and combat style.
Tanner, I'm not gonna tell you your business but unchained monk/empyreal sorcerer has a lot of potential... Great stat synergy, good defenses, with the right spell selection you can effectively switch-hit between self-buffing melee and reachzilla caster (double-chained kama is great for this because you're automatically proficient and it can be wielded as a 2-handed reach weapon for AoOs when you're casting and you can flurry with it when you're ready to throw down).
If Tanner's building a 9 level arcane caster I'll probably use my ranger/Druid. I think together a Druid and an inquisitor cover all the heals and status removal we need, right?
Sorry, for some reason I thought I remembered you being a ranger/inquisitor. You have any preference which guy I play? Right now we have 6 level arcane and divine casting but no 9 level casters... So I'm leaning towards either my ranger/Druid or cleric/monk (which I could convert to a monk/empyreal sorcerer if we need arcane casting more)?
If you're allowed to use the vigilante class, the zealot archetype might be worth looking at instead of paladin... It has a somewhat toned down smite but also a bunch of inquisitor stuff, and it has 6 skill points per level to help offset that Int. Depending on the feel and play style you're looking for it might not be a good fit, but it can't hurt to look at it?
Also, if you're open to considering something completely different... You have good stats for a reachzilla caster. If you took empyreal sorcerer for your second class, you could use a double kama (reach monk weapon) for AoOs and still have your turn for casting (or flurrying). Definitely lacks the survivability of a pally but it would be a potent build if you want any casting. Just a thought after I saw your stats.
bard, inquisitor, vigilante, cavalier... urban ranger to some extent...
bards don't get all martial weapons but other than that I think they check every box, plus they have spells that can buff their skills as well as combat. racial weapons can help cover the missing weapons, or a 1 level dip. A daring champion cavalier 1/bard x-1 would prabably have every skill an aristocrat gets (with more skill points every level but first), plus all the proficiencies, and a lot of solid class features. That's probably the best way to go IMO.
Personally, I would do the stats differently...
For race, I like the peri-blooded Aasimar. +2 Int/Cha and a little resistance to most elements (plus I just like aasimars).
From there it really depends on what kind of caster you want to be... Brown-fur transmuter is the best buffer in the game if you want buff the fighter/pet/bard. Or if you want to do more control grab spell focus and improved spell focus, persistent spell, and probably be building towards spell perfection (and grab some wall and environmental spells for things immune to mind-affecting effects). You're definitely going to run into things with SR too so if you're focusing on control/blasting/anything subject to SR you should think about spell penetration and improved penetration.
The big polearm chain that I can think of is the spear dancer combat style but that's probably not a good fit here... I like the chain a lot but it's like 6-7 feats to finish and it's really focused on using it as a double weapon. You lose reach when using it as a double weapon until the final feat, but even then you only treat the end(s) as having reach during your turn which makes it bad for a reach build... You can fix that but it'll cost at least 2 more feats: another combat style feat and combat style master (so you can use a free action to enter spear dance at the start of your turn and another free action to switch out of it at the end). That's like 9 feats to pull off, plus combat reflexes... A warpriest with the human FCB is one of basically 2 classes that can actually afford to do that but it takes a long time to come together and may not even be worth it...
If you read the tree and fall in love with it go for it, otherwise you're probably better off with something simpler.
I don't want to get pulled into a competition- I don't think it's helpful for the OP, and it's not why I'm here. Just to illustrate my point about how powerful the arcane archer build gets though...
In the first round he does ok damage and casts 2-8 buffs (depending on length of time stop and how many quickened spells or rod uses he uses). Starting in round 2 every arrow does 4d6 with a big Str bonus (plus 4d6 sneak attack if you can get it), and you can full attack plus cast 2 spells (with 2 bonus arrows, plus an extra from haste). If one of your buffs was spellsword you could also be empowering or maximizing some of those spells. Nothing adds insult to injury like maximizing the 40d6 disintegrate that comes with your 8 or 9 arrows and other spell.
Obviously he can't do that every fight, but his nova potential is ridiculous. you might be able to be even a little more insulting if you could figure out just the right balance of ZA//empyreal sorcerer with 6 levels of magus--improved crit and perfect strike would greatly increase the chance of a crit on that maximized disintegrate--but I'm not sure exactly how that would come together (maybe 6 levels of arcane archer/eldritch archer and 14 ZA/sorc?)
And, again, this is just when he's focusing on damage... I think one of the real strengths with this build is the flexibility- he can do anything a wizard can. You can focus your spells on control or change whole regions with earth quakes and control weather, and still have solid archery to fall back on when needed.
@weirdo- I think as broad generalities your pros and cons list is pretty accurate. The eldritch archer variations, as I said, really come together at higher levels (honestly I think they just keep getting stronger). By 20th level I'm pretty sure the first build has the highest peak damage (quickened 3rd or 4th level spell on a free arrow, 40d6 disintegrate on a free arrow, and a full attack worth of arrows in one round!); his skills will be more situational than the investigator (since he won't be adding inspiration dice for free a lot of the time), but with spells to buff (or replace) a lot of checks he should do well there too. Until 12th it probably lags behind the others a little but from 12 on its pretty potent. It is definitely the most spell dependent though.
@atzen- I've actually played that combo twice; I really like it but I'm not sure how well it would work as an archer...
Thanks for all the tips and advice!
@Uthraed- my idea was to keep all the mechanics behind the scenes for him for this first game and just see if he likes playing. I would make his character for him and handle all his rolls. If he enjoys the game and wants to play again then I would start teaching him the mechanics (which would mean starting at 1st level with a fairly small pool of options).
I'll figure it out before I switch to an actual recruitment. Part of me does want to keep it simple because it's a lot for me and for the other players to make complicated/higher level characters for a game that might not really go anywhere. The thing is my son is really into Jedi and American ninja warrior (a tv show where people compete on crazy obstacle courses that require impressively difficult acrobatics and climbing) so I'd like to make him something in that vein but he'd need to be more than 1st level to pull any of that off.
I hadn't fully thought through these questions (which is part of the reason I posted this as an interest check instead of a recruitment). I probably won't do first level because even if it is a more realistic introduction to the game I'm not sure he's really ready to enjoy just surviving. It's kind of the same with gestalt... not using it might be more realistic but I think he'll have more fun if I don't have to keep telling him that he can't do things.
For materials I would probably use all the paizo stuff available on d20pfsrd.
So, I GM a few games and play in a few more on these boards and my son has recently become curious about my play by post habits. He says he's interested in trying it. Here's the thing though... He just finished 2nd grade. He reads at like a 5th or 6th grade level but he definitely writes like a 2nd grader, and he's never played any table top or text based games before. I'm thinking about putting something together for him to try it out and I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who thinks it would be fun to introduce a young kid to the game?
I'd probably be looking for 2-4 players who:
I want it to be fun and exciting for him so it would probably be somewhat high powered... Probably start somewhere in the level 7-9 range, high point buy, quite possibly gestalt. I know that sounds way too complex for a kid but the idea would be to do all the mechanics 'off camera'- players would post what they want to do and then hide all their rolls and whatnot in a spoiler, for his turn he'd say what he wants to do and I'd handle all his rolls in a spoiler and tell everyone their results. I'd build his character for him and would be willing to help do that for others too if there are other new players interested.
I don't know what the posting rate would be like or how long the game would last. Anyone interested? Any other parents with curious kids maybe?
Hey, pardon the intrusion. I'm the one who ran the original recruitment (which became table 1), and I just wanted to say how glad I am that your table is going strong. Our game has developed very differently than yours but, surprisingly, we're at about the same place in the AP right now.
Well, happy gaming!
I can't remember if I ever made an official statement/ruling on this or not but as we draw near to leveling up I want to make sure everyone is aware...
We are, generally, following the re-revision on using SLAs to qualify for things (i.e. they don't work), however the domain spells you all gain as SLAs from your marked domain will count as divine spells for the purpose meeting requirements for feats or prestige classes. So, as an example, if she wants to Tera could start out as arcanist 4/cleric 1 and then go into mystic theurge (using arcanist for 2nd level arcane and the 4th level SLA for 2nd level divine); or, Roakkad at 3rd level could take the adept channeling feat (qualifying with his familiar class feature and his 1st level SLA for divine casting).
If anyone has any questions about this please feel free to let me know. Also, I'm not willing to go full PFS and let you totally rebuild when you hit second but if anyone wants to make relatively little changes let me know (I want to avoid someone going from a full caster to a rogue or something, but arcanist to exploiter wizard or slayer to ranger or something like that would probably be fine).
Dipping a few levels of maneuver master monk (like 1-4 levels) might be worthwhile too. You can get an extra trip during a full attack and an unarmed strike so that you can stack vicious stomp with greater trip.
Also, I'm not sure what category snow stride is but bred for war is race trait (for humans) that's good for this too. probably not good enough to skip snow stride but could be a good choice for your second trait.
Ok, I see people posting full builds but I don't really have time for that, especially since I want to present you with a few options. So, here's a few outlines...
This build is probably the most powerful overall that I'll post (because you end up casting 9th level spells), but it also comes together more slowly than many of those they have been posted. For stats you want Int highest, then Dex second; Str, Con, and Wis are where you divide your other points (how you prioritize those is personal preference: Str for some extra damage, Con for the Fort save you're going to try to stay out of combat so hp shouldn't be a huge concern, or Wis for Will and perception), dump Cha.
Levels 1-6: slayer [sniper]/wizard [exploiter]. Use the slayer combat style talents to pick up precise shot and improved precise shot (don't worry about point blank mastery because you're going to avoid being in melee), and use your regular feats for whichever archery feats you prefer (point blank shot should be at 1st; after that your choice out of rapid shot, deadly aim, far shot, weapon focus, etc). You should have 10-11 skill points: pick a few to keep at max ranks (including perception because the real range of your bow is how far away you can see enemies), and spread the rest around your knowledges. Use one of your traits for magical knack [wizard]. You'll largely play like a wizard- use spells to defend yourself, stay out of melee, and you'll have more spells for control and your bow for damage. You can grab a trick or two with your exploits but use arcane pool mostly for boosting DC and/or CL.
Levels 7-14: arcane archer/magus [eldritch archer]. You'll fall behind in your casting slightly using AA to advance your wizard casting (thus magical knack) but you gain a lot of bonuses/tricks with your archery. Use your first arcana for arcane accuracy for a huge bonus to hit when you need it. At 12th things really come together with broad study (which lets you use your wizard spells with spell combat and spell strike allowing you to cast like a wizard and also full attack with your bow in the same round). You'll get 2 less skill points during these levels so you may want to pick a couple knowledges to let fall behind. Your caster level as a magus will never get above 8 so you may want to focus those spells on buffing/utility. With imbue arrow you can launch anti-magic fields onto enemies and then riddle them with arrows from afar.
Levels 15-20: slayer/wizard. As you run out of archery feats pick up quicken spell and other caster feats. Enjoy being a super badass archer with spell casting that's barely behind a dedicated caster.
tougher ranged damage:
Follow most of the advice above but go slayer [sniper]/magus [eldritch archer] for all 20 levels. Switch Int and Dex. Your spell power will be much less but it's a simpler build, you get slightly more skill points, you gain more magus benefits (like stronger arcane pool and high level arcana like bane), fighter training opens up weapon specialization and some other goodies, and you can wear armor.
The big difference here is that this guy isn't afraid to be in the thick of things. For stats make Dex highest, then Int second; Str (for damage) and Con (for hp/Fort) should get what's left; dump Cha and use the points for a little Wis (just for Will).
Levels 1-20: slayer [sniper]/magus [eldritch archer]. Feats start like the ranged damage build but when you get your second combat style talent take point blank master; at 7th and 9th take snap shot and improved snap shot (and look for a chance to take combat reflexes). You should have 8-9 skill points; pick a few to max out and spread the rest in knowledges- perception is much less important here but acrobatics might be important for tactical movement. The typical magus traits and spell selection should work pretty well once you have reach spell strike. Again, this build definitely lacks the spell power of the first one but the combination of being able to cast and full-attack, plus potentially getting several AoOs every round is really pretty solid.
For stats Dex and Int are almost equally important (though I'd favor Int a little); the other stats should be similar to the above builds. This is a pretty potent build in that it has full BAB, full casting progression, all good saves, and good skills, but the action economy isn't as good as the magus builds.
Levels 1-6: slayer [sniper]/wizard [transmuter-enhancement]. Pick up all the rogue skills and spread the rest among knowledges. Feats and combat style should be pretty similar to above. Use other talent for trapfinding.
Levels 7-16: fighter [lore warden]/arcane trickster. This keeps your skill points the same, gets you a ton of feats, plus weapon training, and the unique benefits of arcane trickster (and it ups your sneak attack and keeps full casting progression).
Levels 17-20: slayer/wizard. By now you should be set on archery feats, so pick up things to boost your skills and spells. Sneak all the places and cast all the spells.
Please feel free to ask questions- I'll do my best to answer quickly.
Viviana Masters wrote:
I wouldn't worry about arcane as I'm still working on a stormborn sorcerer over the past week with a magus cohort. IMO just play whatever character you want to play first, and worry about party balance second.
The only problem with that is that I have at least 3-4 characters in mind that I'd really like to play... Which one I want to play most varies from day to day so things like party balance help me to settle on a concept.
From an optimization point of view there are very few prestige classes that help there. From a creative fun to play build prestige classes are great.
This is by design. In 3.x there were prestige classes that were such a step up in power that if one person was using one their fellow party members almost had to in order to keep up. Pathfinder tried to make it a point to rebalance so that prestige classes were there for flavor not for power. In some cases they may have swung a little too far (where the PrC makes you weaker), but all in all I like that they're not about optimizing. I'm old enough that there's a little nostalgia value to the opportunity to just be better than everyone else (like in 1st edition where if you rolled stats that were high enough you could qualify for classes that were better than the classes of people who also had lower stats, and you got more xp too), but really overall balance is better.
Original Poster wrote:
yes, we're allowed to use prestige classes, and now i'm thinking of a EA/ mutation warrior, seems cool..
I really like the mutation warrior archetype. I'm not sure what exactly you want from it, but I think maybe you might be better off here with a mutagenic mauler brawler... You still get mutagen, you still get full BAB and a fair number of bonus feats (though, admittedly less than the fighter), and you get a couple of the fringe benefits of a zen archer (like threatening the area around you with unarmed strikes). You'd also get a good Ref save and 2 more skill points per level than the fighter.
I have a couple play by post games I need to post in tonight but I'll try to find time tomorrow to post an EA/slayer build (and maybe an EA/mutagenic mauler build too if I can).
So, I've been working on the pretty character sheet for my knife fighter but it occurs to me that we seem to have a lot of melee and very little arcane... Am I mistaken? Is anyone keeping a list of what's been submitted/proposed? If I'm wrong about being really melee heavy I'll finish the bastard but if we are I could put together an arcane caster, or do something with my idea for an Abadarian (like either a cleric or inquisitor maybe, with a bolt ace cohort).
ok, so my bastard fighter's cohort is going to be a dwarven 'cavalier' (still working on the details, possibly a ranger with variant multiclassing for cavalier since he doesn't need leadership at 7th) who will ride a wolf at 7th. He recognizes my claim to noble blood and has sworn me his service.
I do have a question though about the original recruitment: you said each player would play 1-2 characters... did you mean the main character and his cohort, or did you mean that we can apply with 2 separate main characters and potentially get accepted with both? I ask because I still have some fluff ideas kicking around for an Abadarian signing on for the opportunity to bring law abiding society into the stolen lands (which is why I was asking about the bolt ace before) and if I can figure out how to work the crunch I might apply with him too...
I haven't done the math to check but having seen both a zen archer (monk)/inquisitor and an eldritch archer (magus)/slayer (or ranger) in action I think they're pretty evenly matched in terms of damage output. They also both have all good saves and 6+ skill points (which makes them good all around gestalt combinations). IMO the EA/slayer has a slight advantage in that it has a real full BAB and d10 hit die to the ZA/inq's sometimes full BAB and d8 hit die (EA also keeps fighter training which opens up weapon specialization and other goodies). That's in general; for your party specifically, it looks like you'd benefit more from additional arcane casting than more divine (as others have mentioned) so I'd definitely suggest the eldritch archer/slayer. That's also a better fit for Tiefling I think.
I can post a potential build for you but before I do: are you allowed to use prestige classes at all? or multiclass in any way? I haven't given it much thought yet but there's probably some cool options available once you throw arcane archer into the mix...