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I just logged in to vote and the first two items that popped up are both wondrous items instead of a specific weapon or armor, staff, or ring....
- Was there a change to the rules to allow that (that was issued late in the contest and doesn't appear in the FAQ...)?
- Assuming the above is incorrect, is there some way for us to report illegitimate submissions?
@Action Economy - Abundant Ammunition allows spells that enhance projectiles to be cast on the container instead, and then applies to any ammunition drawn.
ultimately, its not up to me and will probably come down to a GM adjudication but I don't think that trick works with Named Bullet... spells like align weapon or greater magic weapon are normally cast on quivers or bundles of ammunition, not individual pieces like named bullet; even more problematic, named bullet specifically states "Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged." which means that even if the spell were affecting every piece of ammo in the quiver it would end as soon as one of them was used to attack (ending the benefit for every piece simultaneously).
I'm not trying to be a downer (and maybe the GM will rule otherwise), but I thought it would be better to figure out exactly how that'll all work now rather than you trying it in our first major combat and discovering that your build has a crucial flaw... one upside to potentially dual pathing trickster is that you could spend 1 mythic point on fleet charge or surprise strike to get off an attack for 'free' in the same round you cast named bullet...
Given that party make up, a melee cleric sounds like a good option....
A high Wis build neutral (with negative channeling) cleric of Gorum with channel smite and guided hand would do well. Take destruction[rage] and strength[ferocity] for domains... The build isn't super effective if you have an unusually high number of encounters/day (or abnormally long encounters), but starting at 1st level you can stack channel smite and both domain smites on upto probably 5 greatsword attacks per day... add in divine favor and you've got a solid combatant. Pick up power attack and furious focus and you'll be good to go. On top of all that, you can use the clw wand and have the Wis to make something like hold person worth grabbing.
That is less straightforward though.
Areniel is all set (unless there's anything else that needs to be changed). there's a couple of minor details i need to finalize (like what i want my contingent spell to be) and the character sheet still needs some work (like a bunch more links), but i'm ready to get started whenever you're ready to work me in :)
That really doesn't seem all that straightforward. Xp
Lol- building it isn't that straightforward but playing it would be- just close and do your best to full attack as often as possible. If you took mutation fighter, at 5th level with just that self buff (and no magic items) your base attack would be like +12-13 with +7 damage (or +10-11 with same damage if 2wf)... Piranha strike would drop you to +11 (or +9/9) but up damage bonus to +11 on each attack...
what about a dex based human fighter?
it starts out as kind of a mess but if you build something like this you'd be pretty effective by 4th:
h- weapon finesse
by 'a mess at first' i really just mean that you have 2 wasted feats at 3rd level... you should still be decent at hitting (just not for much damage). weapon focus in sawtooth sabre is wasted (since you can't finesse it) but at 4th level you can now use finesse and slashing grace with all light blades (except the sawtooth sabre, lol)! dual wield kukris and enjoy.
this would be extra nice in a 15 point buy because you can really neglect your Str and focus on Dex (which gives hit, damage, AC, reflex, and init). you could even start with 18 dex (after racial) if you took 14 con, 10 str and int, 12 wis, and 8 cha.
from there you could pick up focus and specialization in kukris (or, better yet- versatility again for weapon focus, then specialization), imp/gr 2WF, and some crit feats. i like weapon training for a build like this but there are couple of archetypes you could take for flavor without sacrificing that (specifically, lore warden or mutation fighter).
for pretty much any magus i think dual path champion/archmage is the way to go... there might be some builds that are be better off with guardian/archmage (or maybe even one for trickster), but its hard to go wrong with champion/archmage.
as for hexing strike... i don't see anything that would let you use that with cestus... do you get some gold to buy a few things with or just the 12 free items? you don't want to blow a free item on it, but you could pick up a monk's robe... that gives you a lethal unarmed strike (for 1d8, i think); combine that with a +5 amulet of mighty fists and you could make some use of hexing strike
with a bard, you have all your bases covered already... i'd suggest for a 7th you pick up something crazy- a fun/ridiculous character that you might worry about building for a campaign where there were still unfilled roles... some examples off the top of my head:
- a halfling barbarian with a serious napolean complex
- a fighter completely specialized in daggers (2 weapon fighting and as ranged weapons)
- a kitsune or other unusual race that invests heavily in racial feats for unique special abilities
- a monk [drunken master]/barbarian [drunken rager]/evangelist (the prestige class, not the cleric archetype) of Cayden Cailean.. basically a total lush who really knows how to handle himself in a fight
also there are classes in pathfinder that might be better for your fighter/rogue... slayer, in particular, comes to mind. i know you guys are new recruits and i don't want to overwhelm you but there are a couple websites where you can read all rules information for various classes/races/etc. here is the official site, but this unofficial site is better laid out and lists more of the prestige classes and whatnot. hope that helps.
this sounds to me like an issue of GMing style... some GMs just feel like Save or Suck spells are too powerful so they pump up enemy saves to make sure their baddies won't go down from one or two 'lucky' spells. if that's the case there's no sense fighting it, the higher you get the DCs the higher enemy saves will climb.
spells with no save can be a good alternative in this case. they tend not to be as potent as other spells but when you compare their weaker effects to accomplishing nothing because enemies always save they're clearly a good option. i agree too that summoning can be a good school for this- not only does it have probably the most spells that don't allow saves or SR, it also allows you to summon small armies to fight for you. mix in a few multi-target buffs to benefit the party and your summoned creatures and you should always have something to contribute.
so... we never really got closure on spell research...
DM- it seemed like you were leaning towards 'yes' on cross class, and 'no' on metamagic-based improved versions... is that what we're going with? and, if so, what's the ruling on research cost?
i'm not sure how extensive your research plans are but i'd only research 1 or 2 spells (maybe 3 at the absolute most)- it will effect my gear purchases though so i need to know what we're doing so i can finalize things...
but there's literally zero point to researching them if you already have the feat... you could just prepare the spell with the metamagic feat on it! to clarify- i wasn't talking about using cross-class spells there, just using research to create better versions of spells you already have access to... like, if you can already cast earthquake, could you research improved earthquake and rather than monkeying around with trying to make up a better version of the spell and then having to work out what level that would be, just make it effectively modified by a metamagic feat and then you know exactly what level it should be.
as for that negating the need for metamagic feats... that was basically my argument against cross-class research in the first place- it "would remove most of the need for
honestly, it doesn't make that much difference to me- i'm mostly set on my high level spells anyways. i definitely think we should work out all the details before we start though (and I'm pretty certain that there will be at least one other character that this effects). the hitch is, it will effect how i finish spending my money... so i can't finalize my character until its settled...
I guess it really is just a matter of how much you're spending (not whether or not you can even do it with gold)... I also auto-succeed on the check to cast 9th level arcane scrolls (including the check to emulate 19 Int)... So, I guess the question really just is whether people would rather we stock up on more scrolls or pay for research and have to use our own spell slots- and if the latter, if we're ok with 1k/spell level...
One thought I had to help balance the higher impact of higher level spells would be to do something like a base cost of 1k/level but then increasing the cost by 10% per spell level- that would leave 1st level spells at 1,100 (1k +10%); 2nd would go to 2,400 (2k+20%); 3rd to 3,900 (3k+30%); and so on, upto 20,000 for 10th level spells (10k+100%)... Or maybe do something like require any cross-class spell you research to use an appropriate focus that costs 1k/spell level (or spell level squared times 100g- that's the same cost for a 10th level spell, but much cheaper in the low levels)
Just some thoughts...
edit: actually, as long as we're discussing spell research... what about researching new spells that are just old spells with metamagic feats applied? e.g., could I research a spell that was a widened earthquake as an 11th level spell (8th base, +3 for widen), or a thundering version of stormbolts as a 10th level spell (8th base, +2 for thundering)?
should we maybe move our conversation to 'discussion' so that we don't keep showing up as an active recruitment thread?
also, sorry i don't have the revised background up yet- i've been totally slammed at work. its going to basically follow the same pattern except he'll fight openly instead of pretending to be a soldier. i'll invent some non-canon threats for him to have vanquished (that won't interfere with canon events but explain why he didn't change the way the canon events went down). his wealth is basically spent- i might pick up 1 or 2 little things but all the major stuff is set and most of what he has left is going to go to material components (mostly diamonds and incense, which is what 90% of divine spells require). there are a lot of links left to add but today is super busy so i won't get to it yet.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood or misrepresented the divine protection scenario. I removed it from Areniel and will leave it off regardless of how it applies to others (in the interest of ensuring his saves aren't unreasonably higher than anyone else's).
I've been alone with my kids all evening but I will get his gear more complete and post at least the skeleton of his new background later tonight.
areniel's sheet has been updated with the following changes:
i think that was everything you asked for, DM, right? i have a handful more money i need to spend yet, and a new background to write but those will have to wait for tomorrow, (and tons of linking to do which may have to wait even longer). in the meantime please feel free to look it over and let me know if there's any additional changes you'd like me to make.
I was planning on taking the second approach most I the time, yeah (obviously not like when he confronted Zuhra). I'm not opposed to taking the other approach- partly I like the idea of a powerful being pretending to be normal to aid the battle against evil without disrupting the status quo and partly (like I said) I thought that would put kind of a check on his power (since he'd be pretending to be weaker most of the time). But if you'd prefer a winged knight in shining armor vanquishing evil from a pillar of light I could do that too (my ooc concern there was that then in some situations he might overshadow some people).
I agree, most of those changes have been made already, or can be pretty quickly... They're also not going to change much of what others are complaining about- my saves will drop by 8 but still be fairly high (and at least one other player will have theirs drop as well), and my AC, HP, and melee ability will be unchanged. Like I said, I have no objections at all to those minor changes but there are some who seem to be advocating that I switch races or completely rebuild to suit a significant level adjustment- that's the kind of stuff I just don't have enough time for.
The crusader PrC requires one "Must worship a good god." Worshiping a god that was killed wouldn't seem to fit.
That's actually just the pfsrd version- the original requires worshiping Iomedae (pfsrd can't use her name for copyright reasons)
I apologize if I came across as snarky. it's hard not to get a little frustrated when I've put in so much time/work (and requests for feedback) only to be told when the characters is nearly done that I may need to scrap it and start over... I don't mind the hours of work- I did expect that, it's the prospect o having to do it twice that I'm having trouble with...
I just looked over Katja's sheet, and a handful of Areniel's numbers are noticeably higher than hers, currently, though as Lessah pointed out she's got no items helpin with any of that, so she could very quickly/easily boost those quite a bit...
Like I said, if you guys don't think its workable I'll bow out, I just wish we could have figured that out days ago (when I posted his AC and saves and whatnot) or even a week or so ago when said what I was planning on building, before I put so many hours into building this character and working on his background.
If you decide you're willing to give him a chance let me know and I'll make the changes we've talked about (and others as needed), but until then I'm not gonna out any more energy into him.
Truthfully, I thought trying to pretend I wasn't an archon was an extra restraint... If you disagree I can drop that. Would you prefer I not pretend to be someone's cohort too, or just that I pretend to be a 'regular' archon while so doing? Or that I drop the ruse entirely?
Regarding the magic items- I can do it the way you have, I just need to pick up forge ring and it will actually end up costing me a little bit less than the way I have it done currently (I'll be using more slots, so less 'x1.5's and some of the expensive enchants will get separated so they'll drop to x1s instead of the extra 50%).
I haven't looked at all the new characters, and I might be remembering inaccurately, but I think my numbers are pretty comparable to Katja's... (And I won't have any clones or any of those kind of tricks that give harder to measure survivability to arcane casters with souls)
i did actually bind myself with the code of conduct, lol. its part of the inheritor's crusader PrC.
it seems like some of these concerns (like race) should have been voiced much earlier... i have no problem making some necessary changes (like fixing the number of spell levels, or making sure i'm using spell perfection correctly), but i don't have enough time to do a total rebuild...
if people don't think i can play Areniel in a way that isn't disruptive (and/or are unwilling to try it and see how it goes) i may just have to bow out :(
DM Fnord wrote:
the horn also transforms into a sword at will... that was the thing i wanted to talk to you about.
for my first tier power i was planning on taking Legendary Item, and I'd like to apply it to the horn/sword. that's what the transforming holy greatsword is supposed to represent... i thought with the 10k transformative power having it turn into the trumpet was well within the realm of reason (and preferable to getting a free +4 holy greatsword if i left the racial ability as written). if you have any specific instructions on this, or would like to re-evaluate/change it just let me know.
DM Fnord wrote:
there are a couple of spells with similar effect (i think one of them is literally called archon's aura) so I was planning/hoping to convince most people that's what i was using.------------------------
DM Fnord wrote:
Your channel energy is at 6d6, an 8th level cleric has channeling at 4d6. Neither the archon nor crusader are bumping that up since both only affect the spell casting.
the holy symbol he has was functioning as a phylactery of positive channeling (granting the +2d6), though it looks like that may need to be re-evaluated...------------------------
DM Fnord wrote:
At 25th level you would only have one 12th level slot, assuming you spent your even level spell levels in the maximum slot, you would only have 2 10th and 2 11th level slots. We are not continuing the attribute table.
Peter, Lessah, and I were just speculating on whether or not there would be bonus spells for high stats above 9th... i will remove those right after i finish this post. the domain ability of clerics states "A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up" so that would mean that i do get a domain spell for each of those spell levels (on top of the 1-2 for epic levels), or are you houseruling that away? sheet edited------------------------
DM Fnord wrote:
Your racial con should be a +14, you have +12 noted.
you said to reduce one racial bonus by 2 (to account for preassigned leveling bonuses), i chose Con for that reduction.------------------------
DM Fnord wrote:
I thought we had noted that crafting combination items needed to maintain their slots. I am seeing shoulder and ring item combinations in the same item. This would effectively allow a character to only have one magic craft feat and have all the gear they want in wondrous items. This is a two-fold impact. Fewer feats, and less gold spent on the items. You have also reduced the price for normally slotless items into slotted items (ioun stones). You may have implanted ioun stones, though they are still treated as slotless.
i don't recall seeing that restriction... i may have missed it (or maybe it was from your previous thread?) i can rework his gear... a thought though- what if the restriction was just that you had to have the appropriate feat to create the original and that would allow you to 'move' the enchant? i ask because mechanically it would work out identically but then you'd have items that make more sense... i can take forge ring and end up with all the exact same bonuses from gear but if i move everything to its original slot instead of having cool, thematic, appropriately named gear each piece will be a bizarre hodgepodge of random things i liked in that slot...------------------------
DM Fnord wrote:
You have two disguise kits consumed with a note that doing this allows you to take 20 on the disguise roll. A disguise kit is basically makeup, each kit has enough for 10 uses and gives a +2 circumstance bonus for a single use. A use is not defined, though I would expect that a use would last for an encounter, until a battle, part of a day, etc.
the restriction on taking 20 is that you have to be able to fail 19 times... the 2 expended kits were to facilitate that so i could have one disguise at my best ability... because the disguise kit gives no duration, in my past experience each disguise has always lasted until removed (combined with the quick change function, that could last indefinitely) so it seemed a worthwhile investment. if you're adjudicating that differently i'll keep them unspent to use as needed (though it seems like a decent disguise should at least last for a day)------------------------
DM Fnord wrote:
Why is your quickened spell only increasing by 3 ranks?...
that should only be the case when applied to miracle and its because of the Magical Lineage trait.------------------------
DM Fnord wrote:
I'll look into divine protection...
fair enough, let me know what you decide and I'll replace it if need be
Frankly, this is not something I usually see play out in true high / epic level games. The number of defenses many enemies pack against spellcasting (SR, high saves, immunities, ect) tends to leave martial attacks as extremely viable, and combined with full divine casting (miracle anyone?) you can see absolutely brutal results.
hmm... that's surprising because my experience has been the opposite- with access to more/better tricks (like spell perfection doubling feat/class bonuses for super high DCs/penetration, spellbane or disjunction to tear down defenses, and the resources in feats/spell levels/gear for lots of quickening) epic arcane casters have dominated most of the epic stuff i've seen/played... (and that's before you even get into the insanity of things like creating a pocket dimension full of simulacri that can cast 20+ spells/round through a ring gate and other such nonsense)
ps- i hope this doesn't all come across as defensive... i certainly don't mean it that way! i am open to constructive criticism (and appreciative of a second set of eyes to point out those house rules stuck in my head from the past), and i do recognize that he turned out quite powerful ... i guess what i'm really trying to get across is that i think i can play him in a way that won't be disruptive, won't make the GMs life needlessly difficult, and won't make the other characters/players feel overshadowed (and that he's certainly not 10-times/1-order-of-magnitude stronger than the other PCs)
the Star Archon is noticeably more powerful, especially for clerics.
i do agree though that he ended up being a powerhouse (moreso than i expected honestly)- and i did purposefully pass on some options that would optimize him more (as you noticed). i hope that he won't/wouldn't be disruptive at all, and i think that the background I've built should help with that- he's very intentionally trying to maintain a low profile (out of concern that a legit demon lord or devil prince will show up and decimate some unsuspecting world just to destroy him before he gains enough power to challenge them) so he's going to use as little power as possible in every situation. he also is restrained by a strict code and the will of his god (either of which could also serve as a reason to remove him later if his presence does prove difficult to handle).
to answer your questions:
as for being "an order of magnitude" stronger... like i said he came out more powerful than i expected, but he can't time stop and end combats before anyone else gets to act... his survivability is very high, and he can definitely handle himself in a fight, but i suspect that most of the time (even if he wasn't sandbagging) he wouldn't really outshine all the full arcane casters... truthfully, i think a lot of the time he's just going to be defending the casters so they can do your/there thing (engage in melee to keep casters safe, use shield other for those with low Con, toss some cures/heals, etc). i agree that he is quite powerful but i think 'an order of magnitude' is an overstatement; and, again, if he proves disruptive we can withdraw him or turn him into an NPC later?
Areniel is not finished but is getting fairly close... here is the link for his character sheet again and you should all be able to comment now (i think). he does have a bunch of unique/custom gear but its all just combining multiple published items into one (applying the x1.5 cost modifier for additional abilities) so I think it should all be okay? i guess there's one exception to that- his sword has a function that's tied to a race feature, but we can talk more about that when we're closer to getting started. a lot of the stuff isn't hyperlinked yet, but most things are pretty well annotated... let me know if there are any questions.
knowledge... dungeoneering?: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (9) + 9 = 18
charge vs. FF: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (19) + 8 = 27
top of round one-
if the centipede survived:
Elli spins with his momentum and brings his big weapon back around with surprising speed, making a second strike before the creature can respond.
attack vs. FF: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (7) + 6 = 13
Elli lets his momentum carry him past the fallen creature and toward a new target. He carefully positions himself were he can attack one centipede but the others will have to come to him...
going for a position where one is in range but the others will have to provoke to get to me and, as much as possible, to the door
please feel free to roll my AoOs on the enemies' turn... i get 4 of them, have 10' reach, and they all go off at +6 for 1d10+9 right now. thanks.
Most of the cost of the tomes is the material component cost for wish.... You don't save much by getting them cast instead of buying books. Without actually looking anything ip, I think paying for a spell is spell level x caster level x 10g... So it would be 26,530 per +1 instead of 27,500.... The best possible case would be that GM consents to let another PC (or fellow custodian) cast them at cost, that would be 25k per +1...
Yeah- I was mining ISWG and some wikis for what I have in my background so far... I can add some more details with place names and some invented NPCs, but I've already mentioned the few NPCs I've seen named in those sources and (without getting into WotR stuff) I'm not sure how much more there will be.
Of course, part of that too is that I'm going for a very different background- I've only been on/aware of Golarion for a relatively short time, I've spent the great majority of that time dealing with one particular issue (which, unbeknownst to everyone else, would have been much worse otherwise), and I'm actively trying to maintain a low profile...
I am, of course, open to suggestions too if anyone knows of any 'fun' worldwound events I could incorporate?
my race/class is set, my feats are pretty set too (there's just one i'm unsure of)... for background, i like the skeleton i have posted as long as there's nothing about it you want changed? i never heard back from you (DM) about what impact the thing you mentioned in your PM might have on what i've written so far? also, i'm not entirely sure how much detail you want for our backgrounds... some of mine was intentionally vague so that you could use specifics for hooks or so that they could be filled in more collaboratively... do you want me to make up some of the NPCs that would have been involved? do you want me to make up specific battles and other details? do you have a specific idea of what from WotR you'll set in the past and what may be yet to come? (if you can say something like, 'books 1-[whatever #] happened in [year]' then i can just only familiarize myself with those books and work them into my background).
@lessah- My prestige class requires that I maintain the same code as a paladin, so I'm not sure the hell knight thing is necessarily the way to go (I know there are pally/hell knights but since I'm already trying to hide my identity I'd prefer, if possible, not to make the ruse more complicated than necessary). Also, part of hiding my identity will be that I'm disguising myself as an aasimar so you wouldn't get impact of having an archon cohort. Thanks though.
@ace and manticore- thanks. I don't think it needs to be a full-time partnership, unless you really want it to be. Since they've granted me ascension, I assume the custodians will know the truth (including the other PCs), and I have my own jurisdiction... So we'd either need overlapping territories or to develop a relationship/arrangement where I'm mostly with you when we're on official business but on my own poking around the worldwound the rest of the time.
Well, Areniel is concerned that if a Demon Lord (or Devil Prince) discovered that an Archon is gaining so much power they might show up to do something about it (you know- to try to put an end to it before I become a serious threat to them)... he saw first hand the incredible destruction Abraxas wrought when they met him in the Abyss and he's trying to spare Golarion from that devastation- that's why he tries to keep a low profile. Pretending to be someone's cohort would give him a valid reason to be with the group but (hopefully) prevent him from attracting too much attention...
My thought on age/history was that until his background starts counting years he was exclusively on the outer planes (where they don't really even track the passage of time)- any concept of his age during that time would have been basically meaningless, and any 'history' he knew would have just been the endless war between good and evil... Time as we know it is only really experienced in the mortal realms so any concept of age or history that he does have would have developed since arriving in Golarion. of course all that is subject to change if you want it to function differently, or prefer a different flavor
Also, at this point the mechanics that are up on his character sheet are mostly really notes to myself for building the real character sheet.
DM Fnord wrote:
I'm sorry... I must have misunderstood something...
DM Fnord wrote:
I thought that meant my domains spells would somehow be limited by actual cleric class levels... am I correct in understanding, now, that my domain spells will function normally for someone of my caster level?I've started on my google doc, but there's not enough to be worth posting yet (more hemming and hawing than typing so far)- I'll have something up soonish.
ps- was F'nord one of the dragonriders of pern?
I have a question about how my domain spells will work... Will I have access to a domain spell at each level I can cast (upto 9) but all with caster level 11, or will I get domain spells as if I were only level 11 (so upto 6th level spells)? I'm guessing the latter but want to be certain. And, with the Inheritor's Crusader PrC's Champion of Honor ability, it says levels from the PrC stack with paladin levels for smite evil, but doesn't say what happens if you don't have pally levels.... There's precedent both ways on this one (and usually they're good about specifying which way to go)- i'm cool either way (I doubt a 1/day 3rd level smite is ever gonna be a game changer), just let me know.
Also, I'm thinking I might take the separatist archetype instead of ecclesitheurge...