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RPG Superstar 2015 Marathon Voter. 5,303 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Not in Pathfinder, no. But in every version of D&D after 3rd/pathfinder, you deal damage with the same stat you use to hit.

This weapon seems like garbage, honestly. I would probably sell it. 1d4+1 to a mental ability score is going to do very little beyond one-shottimg animals (int damage).

Remember, there's an incongruity between PCs and NPCs when it comes to things like ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, poison, disease, curses, permanent duration spells in general. It sucks as a PC to get hit by that stuff because it costs you even if you win the fight. You have to deal with penalties or remove it, which takes time and/or spells. But nobody cares when the NPC contracts filth fever or takes 3 int damage or is blind for more than a minute. The chances are, that guy's not walking away from the fight, anyway, and it inconveniences no one if he does because NPCs either don't matter or matter so much that would not be subject to careful resource control/allocation.

In the hands of NPCs, this weapon would suck to face. In the hands of PCs, well, it's going to sit in a bag and only come out to drop enemy animal companions or the rare high level animal/unintelligent magical beast.

How much would an item with continuous Hex Vulnerability cost? I think you meant to ask "how much would an item of infinite healing cost?" I would say, roughly, infinite gold. Oh, wait, it only works if you have a witch or Shaman in the party, so, ok, it's really more like half of infinite gold. <_<

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It would be some tiny fraction of that, actually, since it's only useful for disguising yourself as one specific identity.

Further, while, yes, a skill bonus costs X, you are kidding yourself if you think a bonus to disguise is actually as valuable as a skill bonus to something like perception, diplomacy, umd, etc.

Note that a +10 disguise should cost 10k, but a hat of disguise actually just costs 1800, less than a +5 skill item.

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My character churns out gaming articles, then creates discussion threads tangentially related to my articles to generate traffic. ;P

My oracle, though, is a con artist that only adventures because his haunting entity harasses him and ruins his cons unless he is making progress on saving the world.

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3 levels of Rogue isn't a bad idea, at least, so you can deal Dex damage with your fists.

Oly wrote:
But in certain kinds of campaigns giving all the benefits in one feat is way OP.

Only because the game is absolutely not set up to play those games whatsoever. It's the only feat that's really designed for those kinds of games. Nothing else really applies. I guess Skill Focus?

If Ultimate Intrigue is super awesome and totally revolutionizes Pathfinder, I'll regret these words, but if you're in a game where this Secret Identity is overpowered as a feat, you're honestly better off playing one of hundreds of RPGs better suited to that kind of a game than Pathfinder is.

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Oly wrote:
Would a feat that allowed you to cast Alter Self, with unlimited duration, on demand, but without changing ability scores or gaining special attacks and the like be overpowered or not?

Not. Without the stat adjustments or special abilities, it does nothing except give a bonus to a skill. A skill that's mostly ignored anyway--in four years of playing Pathfinder, I've never seen Disguise rolled once, and in all the time I've played 3rd edition, it was one of the least rolled skills in the book. I think we rolled Use Rope more often.

Oly wrote:
With a campaign involving intrigue, which is what the book is about, being able to be two seemingly-different people is quite potent. It isn't potent enough to be the point of a whole class, but it's more potent than any feat that isn't often banned.

I don't think so. It is entirely designed to make it possible at all to have two identities. It is a useless ability unless you want to have two identities, and if you want two, you just about need it (or a whole bunch of spells), but there's nothing actually super useful or beneficial about having two identities--it's a totally fluff desire. Why charge more than one feat for something that's pretty much non-mechanical anyway? I would never take this feat unless I specifically wanted to be a dual-identity masked vigilante type, but even if I did want that, I'd just be frustrated at the feat tax I had to pay for such a thing to be viable.

Oly wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Oly wrote:
I agree it shouldn't be a whole class, but I'd make it a feat chain to get all the abilities of the dual identity in the class (Dual Identity, Improved Dual Identity...

Just say no to Feat Chains.

It either needs to be a scaleable feat, or just be a Skill Unlock for Disguise.

I guess that's redundant considering that Skill Unlocks are all scaleable feats.

I think, if all aspects of dual identity were to be incorporated into feats, it would have to be a chain because, while it's not an ability worthy of a whole class, giving all its benefits in one feat would make that feat OP.

I don't like "feat taxes," as if Dual Identity were one feat but required the Deceitful feat as a prerequisite. But the full version of Dual Identity, with all the features of it in the class, would IMO be OP to get (even scaled) in one feat.

If they do an "Amateur Vigilante" feat, I'm certain Dual Identity will be much more limited than in Vigilante.

Why is it better than a single feat? What does it really give you? Honestly, I don't even think it's strong enough to be worth a whole feat. It barely does anything, so, it'd be far more like a feat tax than anything else. I'd almost rather it just be a function of high Disguise checks, or a trait that scales as you level. Or just an alternate Disguise unlock. Or a toggle the GM flips for a campaign, so all PCs get the ability or don't.

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Divination's usefulness is limited mostly by the GM in question. Some GMs are very helpful with divinations--enjoy them even--but most hate them with a passion. In fact, I'd say you're less likely to hit a GM that deliberately sabotages your Divinations with trickery and other nonsense like that than you to hit a GM who just has no idea how to answer or what to say for a Divination. It's a very delicate balance--give to much information, and the upcoming encounter(s) is spoiled. Don't give enough and the PC wasted 10 minutes and a 4th level spell.

In any case, while it could, with the best kind of GM (as far as divinations are concerned--good gming is not in any way connected to someone's ability to facilitate good divinations) be worth a feat, I think the overwhelming likelihood is that no, it's not worth a feat for because the GM is so likely to be unequipped to properly handle it.

Archaeik wrote:
RAW, it is clear the Bodak does not have "Energy Drain" even though they bestow negative levels, but let's compare the 3.5 Bodak

The idea that it could give someone negative levels (which is the definition of energy drain) without having "energy drain," is very confusing to me. That's like suggesting a creature could permanently drain someone's Charisma with having "ability drain."

Death Ward makes you immune to energy drain. Negative levels are defined as being caused by energy drain. Ergo, in addition to being a death effect, the bodak's death gaze is also energy drain. You would be immune to it while subject to Death Ward.

Yeah, I'm totally sold on Warlock becoming a separate class (without dual identity) that's maybe a bit stronger, then adding dual identity as a "anyone can take this" thing.

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Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

So, I'm going to assume that Ultimate Intrigue is about the same size as Ultimate Combat. Which means that Vigilante isn't enough to fill the whole book.

I'd have to guess that the rest of the book will be filled with ways to add Intrigue to your game. Where you need to make an argument to the Emperor's guards that they should allow you in for an audience, and 'I attack them' will be answered with 'they kill you'

If this sounds like your thing, if you enjoyed reading the Goblin Emperor, or the Amber series, maybe vigilante is a great class. If you can't imagine why anyone would trade combat power for social power, well, you're probably looking for a different style of game.

And it's not right or wrong, it's just different. I'm willing to at least give the rest of the book a look. Maybe that's needed to fully understand.

I don't really see how the dual identity thing really gives you much of anything in the way of social power. Vigilante seem weaker, socially, than even core classes like the Bard. Their only unique social ability is that they have a dual identity at all, which is almost duplicated already with disguise checks and certain spells.

I'm all for a book adding social/intrigue options. I think the weakest part of D&D 3rd (and up) has always been the skill system (before 3rd, they didn't really even have one and it somehow felt like it worked better), so, shoring that up could be cool if done well. But giving me a class like the Vigilante doesn't give me a ton of hope. They don't appear to interact in any special way with the "social combat" or whatever other subsystems they're introducing. They aren't really better at any social skills than existing classes (they're probably worse, in fact, than several, since they can't afford to waste point buy on Charisma).

All they have is the existence of a dual identity, and it's just not looking like enough to hang a whole class on (never mind four classes--and I think we can all see this is four classes that just share a single line of class features: the dual identity stuff). I'd much rather hang it on ALL of the classes, and have dual identity Fighters, Shamans, Sorcerers, Paladins, whatever.

I mean, can a character like that even fit in a normal adventuring party? It looks like the whole group would have to be vigilantes for it to work at all.

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I have primarily GMed for the past 20 years--I think I've PCed in less than a dozen games that lasted more than 2 or 3 sessions, and of those, only two so far has lasted more than 10. So, I haven't really experienced this phenomenon as a player.

In fact, in the game I PCed in the longest, I was an unbelievably untouchable tank-gish. It was 3rd edition, so, I was a Monk/Sorcerer/Paladin/Spellthief/Abjurant Champion/Swiftblade, which gave me Charisma to saves and AC (Ascetic Mage, how I miss thee), evasion, and I had a spell list full of extremely long duration buffs adding to my AC, Saves, miss chance, speed, etc., which, thanks to a Spellthief trick had an extremely high caster level, so they also couldn't be realistically dispelled.

I was no slouch landing blows, but that wasn't my focus--I left damage mostly to the Divine Metamagic Cleric and the absolute buzzsaw of a Jade Phoenix Blade and focused more on drawing the attention of as many bad guys as possible (ideally, they'd surround me, giving my allies a flank from any position) and either picking on the spellcasters with my magebane blade or Wings of Flurrying to appear threatening and worth hitting.

The GM actually considered it a challenge to hit me--he'd throw wave after wave at me, just trying to land a blow. Rarely, he'd get a high attack, get through the layers of miss chance and mirror images, and finally land a blow...only to hear my favorite words and his most frustrating: "Wings of Cover." I wasn't hit once from level 12 to 16 when the campaign ended, and it was awesome. Everyone actually had lots of fun with it, too--nobody cared that, realistically, if any of these guys turned to hit them, they'd be an instant smear...

The other game is ongoing (and Pathfinder, so a bit more relevant), and I just became immune to charm/compulsions and will be immune to all mind affecting effects at 15th (Shattered Psyche Oracle Curse). I fully intend to take Oracle's Vessel by that point, too, so, I should have some very nice trials for your theory. Targeting the caster with will saves isn't usually smart anyway, but I'll get to see if the bad guys specifically avoid targeting whoever I share my immunity with, too.

Meanwhile, when I GM, the NPCs act within their knowledge and ideally, I've created their abilities before I even know what the party is or will be capable of (it helps that I prefer running E6/E8 sandboxes, so, I can make everything ahead of time and it will always work).

Case in point, in my current game, there have been now three occasions where the Bard's ability to Countersong has completely shut down the enemies threat level (and weirdly once even where Distraction saved the day), and when I conceived of these potential encounters, I didn't know there would even be a Bard.

In other words, I value fidelity first, when it comes to GMing--NPCs should act the way they would act--even before making the game a specific amount of challenging.

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As per the subject, I don't really understand why this is even a class. Why is the vigilante your choice of "weak slayer with a social identity," "weak rogue with a social identity," weak wizard with a social identiy," and "weak inquisitor with a social identity?"

Why isn't the whole social identity thing just an add on option? Why not have a Slayer, Wizard, Rogue, Inquisitor, or frankly, every class, archetype that adds the social identity? Or, let's be honest, this isn't super strong; maybe it could just be a feat? Or even a function of the disguise skill?

I am just not seeing a compelling reason this is a class at all. Most of the class talents that are legitimately cool and new ideas (Mystic Bolt, Penance Gaze, etc.) could be added as options/talents/archetypes/whatever for other classes instead.

If you have a feat to spare, yeah, Vital Strike is ok, but NEVER use Vital Strike instead of trying to full attack. 6d6 looks impressive, but it only averages 21 damage. Str 26 (+8 bonus x1.5 = 12) plus power attack at 8 BAB+ (+9 damage) does 21 damage, too. Since that won't be all you add to an attack, Vital Strike is definitely not worth it as an "all the time" kind of thing.

Slayer is basically thought of as one or more of the following:

1) Fighter with more skills

2) Ranger without the nature crap

3) Rogue with more BAB

Should solve your problem nicely.

I do have Craft Wondrous Item, but the GM and I prefer not to use continuous spell magic items for exactly the issues raised above. Custom items are ok, just not that kind of a custom item. That said, a Spectral Hand just helps melee touch spells gain range. It doesn't help my ranged touch spells, plus, I'm far from squishy. I have the best AC and Saves in the party, a d8 hit die, and a Cure Critical Wounds hanging in Contingency, so, I'm fine going into melee.

What might be awesome, though, would be if there was any kind of precedent item/spell/whatever for adding an enhancement bonus to hit with touch/ray attacks. I know there's a flawed ioun stone that gives a +1 to hit for all attacks for 4k, but I was told I can't purposefully craft a flawed stone, nor are they available for purchase. Plus, I only care about touch and ranged touch attacks, so, I was hoping to figure out a fair discount.

I don't really see how the shield couldn't use your strength and other bonuses. It basically can't hit if it only uses your BAB.

TarkXT wrote:
Pffttt I'm so done with the crowd World of Darkness draws.

I have heard this so often, but never experienced it. Probably because I don't go after world of darkness players, I just teach other games world of darkness. The system is really solid regardless.

TarkXT wrote:
I'll just stick with Exalted. Where my sidereal martial artist literally punches you in the childhood memories. Where my jade caste alchemical literally lifts up the mountain to free the trapped miners for the good of the city. And where my solar exalt baker can make people literally climax with the smell of his muffins.

Every edition of Exalted so far has hideous rules problems. I do like what you described, but paranoia combos and other side effects of the gaping rules issues always made it hard to enjoy. It's been more than a year though, since I saw a new Exalted being kickstarted, so, I guess there's hope that they finally fixed it.

Rerednaw wrote:
Kaim wrote:

And you misunderstood my statements in the other thread--I did not say you had to fight, I said you had to do something during combat. I, personally, play mostly support characters and just about never swing a weapon or deal damage, but I'm never left twiddling my thumbs during a fight--I cast spells that do other things, like buff or control the I would want to mainly concentrate on buffs and debuffs since the wizard is battlefield control and built it based on the being a god wizard guide.
Seems like you answered you own question.

That was my quote incorrectly not actually quoted. Kaim's words followed the part you quoted.

Kaim wrote:
I was under the assumption that as a non-video game rpg it would be more like a role playing game than a combat game, which is why I picked a lore oracle instead of one specifically for buffs and debuffing

Yeah, like at least 75% of other RPGs are like what you described, but Pathfinder/D&D is not--it's an adventure game, which kind of means a combat game.

And you misunderstood my statements in the other thread--I did not say you had to fight, I said you had to do something during combat. I, personally, play mostly support characters and just about never swing a weapon or deal damage, but I'm never left twiddling my thumbs during a fight--I cast spells that do other things, like buff or control the battlefield.

I would never recommend FATE to anyone ever. It's got a totally different roleplaying agenda than most traditional games--it's roleplaying as "telling a group story," and you, as a player, directly influence the narrative beyond the capacity of your actual character. That's a very different experience, and one I personally can't stand. For a much better non-combat game, look at, uh, basically everything that isn't d20. The d20 skill system is a tacked on afterthought joke.

World of Darkness, especially the new world of darkness post the God Machin Chronicles update, is my favorite RPG for that kind of stuff. The system is perfect for a wide variety of actions--amusingly, I'd say actual pitched combat is what it does worst.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Blackened and Legalistic.
I'm confused. How does that help you heal?

It doesn't, but being Dual Cursed gives you access to the Misfortune Hex, which is a NO SAVE immediate action forced reroll on anyone once per day per target (friend and foe alike, so, save your friends from 1s just as often as saving them from crits, or preventing the bad guys from making important saves). It's completely amazing. I wish the Misfortune witch hex was as good as that (instead of requiring cackle spam to get much use).

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Greater Command seems better than Greater Forbid Action. I guess they get a new save every round, but it's dictating what they actually do, rather than what they can't (leaving all other actions open).

Hunter's Blessing is probably the best buff at that level, if you know what you're facing and where you're going that day.

Wall of Stone is great, but requires stone to anchor it to, so, not always a good choice (in a jungle or sea game, for example).

You shouldn't be focusing on damage, but for my money, Boneshatter is a nasty damage/debuff combo, if you hit a guy with weak Fortitude.

If you want both utility and/or damage and you don't mind dropping 25gp per casting, Holy Ice is the best of both worlds. Choose between excellent damage or a wall of ice every time you cast it.

Jodokai wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
So, +9 or +11. That's rough. I will have to spend rounds buffing to reliably hit even a 20 touch and it gets worse for rays if there's any cover or anything.
I would seriously consider looking around. I would bet most of your PC's haven't reached a touch AC yet, creatures with touch AC's of 20 or higher are very rare, and they get even more rare as CR goes up, I've checked (dang gunslingers). There will be times when, yes, you will have trouble hitting, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, especially in the eyes of a GM trying to challenge his party.

Well, my own touch AC is 21 (23 with Shield of Faith). The Hunter has 20. The Rogue, 20. The Sorceress has 18. The Wizard, 17. The Barbarian has <10, but he doesn't count.

Again, though, not worried about creatures as much as the humanoid bosses with clasx levels and actual magic items.

Wow, that's a horrendous array, worse than the NPC with class levels array. I wouldn't play a character that terrible, and it's basically suicide to play a MAD character like a Monk (or even a Bard) with that. The 3.5 APs are designed to expect 15 Point Buy. The later ones for actual Pathfinder assume 20. They are going to die. A lot.

You still can't charm a swarm because charm spells target a specific number of creatures. You would need Vermin Empathy or be dealing with a swam with a hive mind in order to control a swarm in any way.

Secret Wizard wrote:

My point was that neither dumping or not dumping generate viable characters.

You can have an excellent Oracle without Divine Protection, and you can make a great Paladin with middling stats all around.

The game doesn't require everyone to be a Zen Archer.

Right, but my point was that, "no, seriously, these other characters were bad, and mine is totally fine and functional, I was just looking to get even better."

Honestly, the others were terrible. They could barely function in the AP. The GM had to change way more than he wanted to make it work--it was almost to the point where one questions the value of prewritten material when it needs ao many edits. This is not me saying "oh man, this guy played a rogue!" and laughing them off for picking a bottom tier class, this is stuff like, the archer (not a switch hitter) having lower dex than strength, the rogue whose highest stat was 15 (and I mean at level 10+), the green dragon sorcerer entering the game at 10th (the same time I joined) with 16 charisma and all her feats dedicated to her crossbow shooting that used lightni g bolt more than her acid spells, or the transmuter with eldritch knight levels and zero polymorphs...It was a level beyond anything normally complained about.

Coincidentally, everyone is much improved after the rebuild with the gm and I assissting. Point buy forces you to dump. It sucks, but it does (mind you, I don't like rolling, either--that's worse).

Gwen Smith wrote:
Why bother with Int at all? You get no penalty for dumping Int, since an Oracle is not a skill monkey class (unless you're going for Lore). Sure you won't have as many skills as a Bard, but that's because you're an Oracle. Let someone else fill that role. If you want to play a skill monkey, play a Bard/Inquisitor/Ninja/Rogue, whatever.

It's complicated. I did play the Bard, but discovered that while a pure caster bard works wonderfully through the mid levels, it becomes untenable as campaigns move on and saves climb too fast for 3/4 spell progression with a spell list containing 90% will saves (and 90% of those are mind affecting) to handle.

The party has lots of hammers and a wizard that kind of plays arm with teleports, haste, and enlarge, but mostly hammers himself with summons and magic missile/lightning bolt/chain lightning. So, they pretty badly need an anvil and some more arm.

They also neglected noncombat stuff pretty badly. Not a single member of the party had any social skills besides intimidate. There were gaps in the knowledges, too, because the wizard wanted to craft more than know stuff.

The GM called for a rebuild at level 12 to incorporate unchained stuff, and following that, I will be the only character with a charisma above 10 (well, there's a sorcerer, but she's a wallflower and still took zero charisma based skills). My bonus is higher than some of their scores.

So, I have a daunting task to fill the gaps and this is my best effort. Note: I have no complaints, I enjoy filling these roles and feel less put upon by a careless group than I do awesome for heroically doing all the stuff they can't.

There's also personal taste. I like skills. And the character concept is a con artist who was haunted/semi possessed (dual curse haunted and shattered psyche) by some mysterious entity that harasses me and ruins my cons until I agree to help save the world by defeating the AP's BBEG. I used a trait to get Bluff as a class skill, so, I cover most of the charisma skills.

And, as a Spirit guide, I can pretty skill-monkeyish, mind you. During adventuring days, I plan on using Heavens, and specifically the hex that lets me add charisma to my charisma skills again. On nonadventuring days, I can go with Lore instead, replacing my Int with Charisma on checks (which removes my curse penalty with those skills). I can also cadt Ancestral Communion/use Knowledge of the Ages to get a quick +8, so, yeah, I am still kind of skill monkeying a bit.

Gwen Smith wrote:
As far as reliably hitting with ray spells, you will need Precise Shot unless your GM house-rules away the -4 penalty for shooting into melee. Because unless your GM rules away cover penalties, too, you will be taking a -8 on about 60-70% of your ranged attacks.

This is why it is important to me to not need rounds buffing. I will go first--I roll 3d20 (take the best) and add 12 when proberly buffed--so, I want to be able to land that critical dimensional anchor before the bad guys can move around to get cover and my allies close into melee.

Gwen Smith wrote:

Although if you're going with touch spells, you shouldn't need to worry about saving throws as much, so you don't need to keep your casting stat pumped all the way up. Drop your Charisma to 16 and put the extra points in Dex.

I am not specializing in touch spells by any stretch. I just happen to have some that I consider high priority and want to make sure they land. No, short of boss fights, I will mostly be dropping buffs and control spells (greater command or chains of light, for example).

Rory wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Actually, it's more like, "I'd like to dump harder--is there a way I can?" I ended up with 14 Dex in the end. Hardly a dump. But it would have been nice to have those points in Int or Con instead, if I had been able to dump Dex, too.

I came up with a +20ish to hit for those rare cases with an 8 STR/DEX.

What bonus to hit are you shooting for?

You're obviously including something else. At level 12, for example, if I started with 8 dex, I would get +4 from automatic bonus progression, but -2 from threefold aspect, leaving me with a 10. So, when I attack, I get my +9 BAB...and nothing else. +2 if I guessed right when I cast Hunter's Blessing hours ago.

So, +9 or +11. That's rough. I will have to spend rounds buffing to reliably hit even a 20 touch and it gets worse for rays if there's any cover or anything.

Where are yiu getting the other +9 or so from?

Just a Guess wrote:
1 It states working similar to acid fog + grease. Acid fog states it works like solid fog. So does freezing fog include both the rules for solid fog and grease?


Just a Guess wrote:
2 Can the dragon take 5ft steps in the freezing fog? He can ignore grease but not solid fog.

No, a creature cannot take a 5 foot step in Solid Fog.

Just a Guess wrote:
3 It states being equivalent to a 6th level spell. Does that mean the grease DC is calculated as a 6th level spell?

Yes, the DC would be based on a 6th level spell: 16 + stat.

Just a Guess wrote:
4 The dragon can not look through an acid fog, but this is freezing fog, should his snow vision apply?

Expect table variation, but I would say no. The sight applies through snowy conditions which are a specific thing, not just cloud spells that deal cold damage.

Just a Guess wrote:
5 how would it (especially the grease part) interact with the blizzard ability?

All of the penalties and slow downs would stack on top of each other. What is confusing you about this combination?

Secret Wizard wrote:
"Everyone is not dumping because they are scrubs and they get nonfunctional builds! By the way, I'm dumping hard and my build is nonfunctional halp."

Actually, it's more like, "I'd like to dump harder--is there a way I can?" I ended up with 14 Dex in the end. Hardly a dump. But it would have been nice to have those points in Int or Con instead, if I had been able to dump Dex, too.

gustavo iglesias wrote:
Well, if the PC monks could flurry with level draining unarmed attacks, that would probably increase their perception in the boards

Pretty much this, yeah. Also note that the wight monk in question did not actually kill anyone--it died horribly on round two. Its just that level drain + highish level flurry is an ugly combo to face, as negative levels stick automatically and don't allow a save for 24 hours, so, there's no defense besides not getting hit in the first place.

And I am well aware my concerns are rare enemies, but they are major, important enemies. Boss fights, or mini boss fights. I'm not throwing Dimensional Anchors or other important/powerful touch/ray spells at mooks anyway. I'm one of those people that wants to be prepared for everything, and I'm fairly confident in taking on regular grunts--it's the spellcaster bosses that concern me.

I'm far less worried about regular CR 12-20 monsters. I'm far more worried about landing touch spells on CR12-20 spellcasters who are likely to be smaller, have higher Dex, and have higher non-armor/natural armor bonuses to their AC.

Specifically, I'm thinking Dimensional Anchor to stop them from just teleporting away. Or dropping Heal on undead casters. Or, crap, undead monks. A wight or mummy (or other undead with nasty touch abilities) monk would be horrendous to fight.

AP Spoilers:
I remember book 3 of Carrion Crown when that Wight Monk flurried and basically ended the Fighter's contribution for the rest of the book.

I lost some skills and HP from my Bard, but I have a respectable Dex in the end. I guess I was just hoping there was an item somewhere that added enhancement bonuses to touch or ray spells. Or a spell, well, exactly like Hunter's Blessing, which was a great find, that gave long duration hit buffs. Channel Vigor adding +4 to ranged attack rolls as the closest I found otherwise and it's just too short a duration in too competitive a spell level.

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I love Oracle because I love the cleric chassis but I hate...

1) ...Prepared casting. It's tedious, and it's either way too powerful or incredibly frustratingly weak depending on your skill level and your willingness to put the effort into picking right. Prepared Casters are more self-sufficient in downtime and can adapt better to adventures they can see coming at least a day in advance. Spontaneous casters are more efficient with their slots. They are less likely to have exactly the right spell, but they are far less likely to ever waste a spell slot, either.

2) ...religion in Golarion and just about every fantasy setting I've ever played in other than my own (where I don't get to PC, obviously). Oracles get to sidestep that nicely, getting the same powers without the fluff restrictions.

3) ...having 2 skill points and a tiny class list.

4) ...Wisdom as a stat. I could rant for quite some time, but the short version is that I don't think it should even exist, never mind do the things it does. I do like Charisma, though, so, that's another plus.

So, basically, I like Oracle because it's a cleric that has none of the cleric's baggage.

haremlord wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
haremlord wrote:

A Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists so you can use your wisdom for touch?

Not much help for ranged, however.

Wisdom to hit isn't going to help most oracles anyway.

If you are a wood oracle, Wood Bond + Tree Form will give you a scaling competence bonus with your wooden natural attacks, which can be used to deliver your touch spells.

While that is true, the OP only mentioned STR and DEX being dump stats. I was hoping that wasn't true for WIS as well.

The original plan was 7 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Wis, 18 Cha, and anything I had to spare in Con and Int. I ended up up splitting between Dex and Con instead. I had to resign myself to way fewer skills than my Bard had.

What I don't understand about this character is:

What do you do when combat starts? You have no way to physically fight effectively (a crossbow is your only option and it's not a great one) and your spells have zero combat application except maybe Cure Light Wounds.

I mean, Karmic Blessing? Seriously? A spell slot to give someone a +3 to a skill check for a few seconds? And only if they took ranks in a skill that was not, in fact, a class skill? Why?

Pathfinder is mostly a combat game. You're going to be bored if you can't do anything during a combat. Murderous Command is an awesome 1st level--maybe give that a shot. Or a least Command. Bless to buff the party? Something?

If this is one of those rare games that comes along every once in a while where people use D&D to play a game with little to no combat, feel free to ignore the above advice, but please, allow me to suggest looking at the roughly 7816487149 other roleplaying games out there that handle non-combat stuff better than D&D, since the D&D skill system is pretty tacked on and is easily the weakest part of the game's rules.

Dave Justus wrote:

Ok, so if I understand, you are going to be playing in a fairly low point buy game, and to get around that you want to make sure that you only have one stat that matters, and not suffer any consequences for dumping.

My advice is don't do this. Your GM has set a low point buy (and I'd bet it is at least 15) because he wants a certain type of game. You breaking that will result in one of two things, either you are the only one that does that, making the game much less fun for everyone else as you outshine them, or everyone does that, making the GM unhappy which is never good.

Build a balanced character, with balanced stats that will fit in with the game the GM wants to run.

Actually, the GM used this point buy because he wanted people to dump stats and have weaknesses, but all but one of the other players annoyed him because they ended up taking all average stats (seriously, one of them had every stat 12-15). They did not do what he wanted and they ended up totally ineffective to boot.

The GM does not object to this at all. He ok'd everything but Noble Scion.

Kaouse wrote:
Either buff yourself up before hand

I guess I was looking for buffs that lasted a while, rather than rounds/level buffs I would have to waste early combat actions on.

Kaouse wrote:
Since I'm sure the only reason you're making this thread is because you want to be venerable, I can only hope that your cheese ages better than your dusty old bones.

No, I'm normal age. I never considered being old, but no, roleplaying calls for this guy to be youngish. I will be using Threefold Aspect to compensate for low Int/Wis, though.

The end result is that, yeah, I'm going to drop Int/Wis/Con more and take more Dex. Maybe just 14 at least and put physical stat buffs there instead of just in Con.

Battlecry is a good idea. I'll probably grab that until I get Heroes' Feast. My Bard had that, too, until I got Good Hope.

Soilent wrote:
Is Precise shot considered mandatory?

Early on? Yes, no matter what kind of blast because low level enemies have touch ACs close to their regular AC values.

By mid-to-high levels? Not if you use a touch blast (since touch ACs don't move much beyond what they start at at low levels), but you'll still want it if you use a physical blast.

Entryhazard wrote:
Dafydd wrote:

Flying, no weapon, what do they need the CMD for?

No weapon negates sunder and disarm, flight can negate trip, grapple and bull rush. Still have to deal with dirty trick(to a limited degree), but that is not something that is used often tmk, unless a player focuses on it.

Assuming he starts at level 8 and burns level 4 slots all day in order to fly.

And also some flyers do grapple, I have bad memories with harpies.

I'm starting at 12th, actually, and Freedom of Movement stops grapples if I'm worried about that. But yeah, my CMD will be "ok" with Nature's Whispers anyway. I'm exactly the kind of character that can dump Str and Dex because I can cover pretty much everything with something else. Everything, it seems, except touch attacks, so, I'm considering maybe I won't, but seriously, Oracle can be pretty phenomenally SAD.

Otherwise, Some of these spells, I never noticed before. Hunter's Blessing is interesting. May consider that just because of how many people it hits and for such a long duration.

I wish I could do Flagbearer, but the GM said we would need an actual symbol and work for an actual nation or organization, not just use some personal symbol--he basically said it's for stuff like Kingmaker when you make your own country or when you all work for another organization :/

Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Deadly Aim only working with the non-touch blasts? I don't see that coming up much unless the Kineticist gets an accuracy boost, a primary criticism of the non-touch blasts was that they weren't super-accurate as it was and increasing your to-hit with them was a major pain.

No, that was pretty well debunked with both math and testing. The first attack for just about every 3/4 class hits easily, it's the iteratives that miss a lot. The kineticist only makes one attack per turn, so, the numbers were fine.

But Deadly Aim was always a DPR downgrade. It's a total trap, because the attack deals so much base damage, the penalty to hit heavily outweighs the minor damage bonus.

Jodokai wrote:
I mean what options are available to us? Give us the parts of the character that are set in stone besides the low STR/DEX. Have you picked out your Mystery (something tells me it's Lore or Nature)? Are you opposed to multiclassing? I don't really have ideas for anything of these things, I'm just trying to not waste time looking over things you don't want to change.

Time, but I will still have access to Whispers of Nature. It's complicated, just go with it. My only feat set in stone is Divine Protection. I'm unsure as to whether or not I will be allowed to take Scion of War for Charisma to Initiative, so, I'm assuming no at the moment.

I'm leaning Dual Cursed with Haunted and Shattered Psyche. Not sure which will be my main, yet. Immunity to Mind Affecting vs. Reverse Gravity is tough. I am considering VMC Bard, but it's going to eat a lot of feats. I think I will also be allowed to do Spirit Guide (even though both mess with mystery skills), but it will eat into my revelations, so, I definitely won't take both Spirit Guide AND VMC.

Decision wise, I don't have to dump Dex, necessarily, but skills will be tight if I don't (i.e. because the point buy for good dex will come out of Int). Strength, I'd really like to dump for the concept. I don't want to deal any weapon damage--that's not my role. I'm going for strictly support and control. The armor situation will be fine--I'll have Celestial Armor, which weighs next to nothing, and I have little gear otherwise.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:

What revelation and why dump? What do you need to dump them for so that you can achieve the touch attacks? More often than not a a 14 is MORE than enough to be accurate as that represents a 50/50 under the majority of situations.

I'm not talking about a revelation, necessarily, I'm more talking stuff like Dimensional Anchor or Harm. Spells that require touches.

Why dump them? Because I can. I can get Charisma to AC and all my saves and, maybe, if the GM lets me take it, to Initiative as well. I can Air Walk so, I won't need climb, and If I can get a swim speed through spells, too. If I VMC Bard, I can even use Dance (a Charisma skill) instead of Acrobatics and Fly, the most important Dex skills after Stealth, so, I'd be in a great position to dump them (Str down to 7, probably, Dex maybe to 10). But I may have to keep some Dex* for these touch spells if I can't find another way around it.

*Like most tables (or at least my own and every one I've been a part of), this group houserules that touch spells can be Finessed without a feat

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Dual cursed oracle with fortune revelation at level 5. Don't increase the attack bonus but you do get to reroll.

I will probably be Dual Cursed, so that's actually a great idea. I was going to not take Fortune because I didn't think I would be rolling much myself and my saves would be so high, but duh, I'm asking about attack rolls and here you go. Ok, that's one good idea. Any others?

Doomed Hero wrote:
Just say no to dump stats.

If I didn't have to deal with frustratingly point buy, I wouldn't, trust me.

Dafydd wrote:

Well, a familiar can deliver touch spells, and if you plan to dump dex, will likely have a higher dex, as well as use your BaB and have a hefty size bonus.

Point Blank Shot applies to rays, and it is not just a +1 to hit but a +1 to damage too.

Another option is True Strike. Scratch that, it is not a cleric/oracle spell. It is a wizard one, if you are that kinda oracle.

Reduce person gives you more dex and a size bonus too. Spells often do not care about your size too.

The familiar helps with touch spells, but not rays, unfortunately. PB Shot is +1 to hit, but the damage won't be relevant, since I'm talking stuff like Dimensional Anchor or Energy Drain, not damage rays.

True Strike would have been a go to, but yeah, not a Cleric spell. Is Reduce Person? I know Enlarge isn't...hmm.

The title is pretty self explanatory. I'm not intending to even wield weapons (beyond a Cestus to threaten for flanking purposes), so, I am looking to dump both Strength and Dexterity on my Oracle, but I still want to reliably (i.e. almost always) hit with my touch (and ray) spells. Yes, I know most monsters have horrible touch ACs, but I'm not concerned with big brute monsters, I'm more nervous about landing them on high level boss (i.e. caster) enemies who can have pretty hefty non-Armor/Natural bonuses and spare more point buy for Dex.

What options are available to me? I know I could take Weapon Focus, but +1 is pretty lackluster. Any way to change my attack stat with touch/ray spells to something else? Feats that give more than just +1? Items? Any good buff spells that last more than rounds/level that could help me?

Definitely not Rapid shot because you don't take full attacks. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc., those feats are intended to work with it, but yeah, you'll have to wait for the final version since it remained totally unclear throughout the playtest and repeatedly asked about.

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You have a Cleric and a Wizard. The other two party members don't really matter at that point. They'll be fine.

Manwolf wrote:
Biggest weakness is their touch AC

No, their biggest weaknesses are Will Saves. By my count, the Rogue has +13 (ok, not that bad, but 2 levels of Antipaladin with Charisma 22 is hard to get around), while the Fighter has +3 (plus whatever their Cloaks of Resistance grant). That's pretty insanely bad. Command Undead would completely own the Fighter, and that's only a 2nd level spell. Get a Dirge Bard or Undead Bloodline Sorcerer and they'll be putty in your hands.

You can combine two archetypes. You cannot combine Wildblood and Crossblooded because both alter the Arcana, Bloodline Powers, and Bloodline Feats class features. You can combine Martial Master and Weapon Bearer Squire, however, because they do not alter he same features.

You didn't actually explain how 37 Dex happened. Nor how 32 Str and 22 Dex could. It sounds like you gave them really absurd stats.

Nefreet wrote:
Well, that's not entirely true. They don't require an attack roll, but even the Swarm subtype states that Swarms still "attack".

Ok, so, are you suggesting that the Swarm would be unable to move into your space? Or that they would be unable to deal automatic damage to you?

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