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mousey wrote:

4th Ed is talking about D&D being a RP game (and spent a few pages on it) but instead advocates power...and more power.

And the players need it. My group thought their characters were "too powerful" when we started H1 and then they got the living crap kicked out of them by a handful of kobolds.

Power is relative. Yes a 4e PC seems more powerful and yet they seem to die just as easily as their 3e analogs.

And power does not prevent roleplaying.

So it advocates a upward spiral of more powers to spice the game right?

CWM, 4th ed is not bad nor broken (i had said it before) but this thread is about RP in 4th ED...it can exist (depends really on players if they wanted to) in 4th ED but this edition doesn't lean towards it. WoTC looks at the problems of pen-and-paper RPG and felt that too few people are able to RP. So how to compensate for it? Give the game system more power. Emulate a console or PC game...

The audience of pen-&-paper gaming is shrinking as people are not inclined towards RP. So how to entrall? Give it more power and make it more accessible and more bells and whistles and more flashes...more HPs more levels....more this and that...RP? Did it try to resolve the RP issue?

mousey wrote:

Bleach, what is roleplaying?...

To me, roleplaying is taking on the life of a character. Questions that ask "How do you respond to X" help a person to know their character.

That to me is roleplaying. Saying "I have skill points in Craft" don't indicate roleplaying (otherwise you're basically saying that if you pick a fighter, you're not intersting in roleplaying)

For example, the paragraps you listed of the dwarf I thought were brilliant since to a new player, it gives you a clear idea as to what not only the expected dwarf acts like but also what an OUTCAST dwarf (said dwarf can be the one that has killed an elder etc...)

Now here's two questions.

In the 3E PHB, exactly what section/mechanic actually encourages roleplaying but more imprtanty, waht do YOU consider rolelaying?

:) right...so what does the rest of the book do?

Btw, is your knowledge limited to 3E and only D&D? Have you played 1st Ed? 2nd Ed? Exalted? Weapons of the Gods? Qin? Warhammer RPG?

Do you know that in Exalted there's such things as penalties? Likewise in Qin?

What were the reasons that WoTC gave for revamping to 4th Ed? Better RP?

Anyway, my earlier post mentioned, the only rule that I need to RP is "Pretend..." It's like acting and I need not act the most powerful and successful to be a good actor/actress but the rules gravitate towards the character to be more powerful (better than an average person...), more successful and all the bells and whistles.

Not that it isn't any good (please reread my earlier postings) but it ain't practising what it is trying to preach.

A question: Why is it so bad that a wizard has limited spells during low level? Does the game grind to a stop if the wizard can't cast any more spells? The player doesn't know what else to do?

Why does the fighter need more at-will abilities to have a fun and illustrative fight? Is it because the player cannot properly describe a fight and hence it devolves into a typical hack-&-slash? Lacking imagination?

DM: Before you stands a savage troll barring your entry to the cathedral whereby the priestess is being ravaged by a mad noble. What will you do?
Player 1: Attack!
Player 2: Oops! My wizard is out of spells. Guess I have to stand back and watch.
DM: Okie, roll your dies
/*Hack and slash....hack and slash*/
DM: Okie, the troll falls dead after 10 rounds of battle.
Player 1: Alright! Troll falls to my mighty dice rolling!
Player 2: /*Stiffling a yawn*/ Okie, let's go; lead and I'll follow.

So what did the WoTC people do to rectify this? Add more powers and at-will abilities

DM: Before you stands a savage troll barring your entry to the cathedral whereby the priestess is being ravaged by a mad noble. What will you do?
Player 1: Attack with cleave!
Player 2: Attack with unlimited magic missile!
DM: Okie, roll your dies
/*Next round*/
Player 1: Not dead yet? Ok! Attack with reaping strike!
Player 2: Use thunderwave to try to push the troll over the bridge! Hahaha....
/*Hack and slash....hack and slash in a different manner*/
DM: Okie, the troll falls dead after 10 rounds of battle.
Player 1: Alright! Troll falls to my mighty dice rolling!
Player 2: And mine too!!

How about this?

DM: Before you stands a savage troll barring your entry to the cathedral whereby the priestess is being ravaged by a mad noble. What will you do?
Player 1: I draw my sword to attack! Elaine, no time to waste! Our prietess is being violated by that evil fiend!
Player 2: Wait Roy! I know you love her but heading in recklessly will be suicidal! You can't hurt the troll enough to slay it. My mentor once told me the troll is able to mend its wound!
Player 1: No time for that! Stay with me or get out of my way!
Player 2: D@mn! I'm out of spells!
DM: Okie, roll your dies
/*Next round*/
Player 1: Gasping...blood oozing from various wounds...i can't last much longer and the troll had healed all its wounds!
Player 2: What can i do? Think! Well, we don't need to kill it; just need to get it out of the way. DM, I'm grabbing the rope from my bag, skirting around the melee fight between Roy and the troll and try to entangle the troll's legs and make it fall over the bridge!
DM: Okie, give it a shot!
/* internally, DM felt that this is a good approach to solving the battle and wonderful RP involved. The god (or dm) is smiling and is fated to be successful */
DM: Roll your d20 adding your dex bonus. The DC is 10 only as the troll isn't paying you any attention
Success!
DM: Okie, the rope caught around the legs of the troll and it stumbled, tottering at the end of the bridge trying to regain its footing or otherwise falling 100 feet into the crevasse.
Player 1: Die! DM, Roy, in his frenzy, rushes forward to give the troll a shaft!
DM: In your mad rush, the troll outstretched arms bearhugged Roy in an embrace of death!
Player 2: Noooo!!
Player 1: Can I struggle out?
DM: Try to pit your strength against the troll
/* Die rolls...failed */
DM: Sorry, the troll had a grip of steel and you're unable to break free...
Player 1: Sigh...no worries. Roy screamed at the top of his voice and stabs his sword downwards into the troll's eye "Die you fiend!" Falling, Roy looked over to Elaine and pleaded "Save her..." and disappears over the edge.
Player 2: I swear to the gods....I will....

Well? 4th Ed can also do this? Right. I agree but does it encourage this? How does it solve the hack & slash problem? What is it trying to emulate? MMORPG? No spells equate boring game? Fighter boring as it can only hack and then slash?

Sigh....

Tatterdemalion wrote:

I've said it many times, and others have also: 4e facilitates a different style of play than do earlier versions. Why is this so hard for many to admit?

I guess I just don't really see the stylistic difference that you see. Perhaps 4e is a bit more cinematic but not by much. I guess I would be more inclined to agree with you if you (or anyone) could help me understand what you are seeing that I am not.

The only difference I do se is that you can't create an intentionally weak PC. I have never understood why it was more a more "genuine" roleplay experience to play a PC that the party would then need to carry through every combat encounter.

To me roleplaying is what you do with the character regardless of its strengths or weaknesses.

Agreed. Hence I was telling bleach that roleplay is everything possible instead of everything powerful.

4th Ed is talking about D&D being a RP game (and spent a few pages on it) but instead advocates power...and more power.

PS: I mean overall the rules ain't that bad and still possible for a good game but nature of it is different. Unless the player had been a experienced RPG gamer, the game will become another MTG or DDM.

mousey wrote:

Bleach wrote:

My issue with 4E not promoting roleplaying is that so many people ignore the 1st 2 chapters of the 4E PHB (the general comment seems to be for many critics "waste of paper, things people everyone knows already")

Yet to me, these ARE the essential building blocks for making a good roleplayer. Asking the player to think about questions such as "How does your character react to this situation" etc are all more likely IMO to actually encourage roleplaying.

I've never really equated the Profession/Craft skills as "roleplaying skills" but accounting skills.

I've bought the gift set of 4th ed and had read through the PH and DMG and most likely to start on it in parallel with my 3.5 stuff (actually, I also run AD&D too).

However, 4th Ed is like asking you to drive with character and style regardless of what car you own but only giving you a purely powered car.

Ok, I'm dumb...what does this analogy actually mean?

And again, why is something like asking the player to answer
"How assertive are you at a decision point" not conduicive to roleplaying yet skills like Profession (BasketWeaving) are?

Bleach, 4th Ed is asking for a different flavour to gaming.

Example:
In page 36, Play a dwarf if you want...
* to be tough, gruff, and strong as bedrock
* to bring glory to your ancestors or serve as your god's right hand
* to be able to take as much punishment as you dish out
* to be a member of a race that favors the paladin, cleric and fighter classes.

An excerpt from page 37 of PHB:
"...Dwarves believe in the importance of clan ties.....deeply respect their elders....dwarves seek guidance and protection from the gods..Dwarves never forget their enemies,...Dwarves harbor a fierce hatred for orcs....Dwarves despise giants and titans.....To a dwarf, it is a gift and mark of deep respect to stand beside an ally in battle...."

What does these two pages of the dwarf description contain?

Bleach, what is roleplaying? All powerful? Heroes? Paragon? Epic proportion?

4th Ed advocates roleplaying but what kind?

Read the short paragraph in page 18 again...yet what does the rules point toward?

Ever play a one-arm warrior? A blind rogue? Dwarf with phobia of the underground? Character who makes the wrong decision or freeze up during a battle? A drunken ex-paladin?

4th ed is not bad...just a different game altogether but only qualm is whether it is what it is trying to advocate...

My issue with 4E not promoting roleplaying is that so many people ignore the 1st 2 chapters of the 4E PHB (the general comment seems to be for many critics "waste of paper, things people everyone knows already")

Yet to me, these ARE the essential building blocks for making a good roleplayer. Asking the player to think about questions such as "How does your character react to this situation" etc are all more likely IMO to actually encourage roleplaying.

I've never really equated the Profession/Craft skills as "roleplaying skills" but accounting skills.

I've bought the gift set of 4th ed and had read through the PH and DMG and most likely to start on it in parallel with my 3.5 stuff (actually, I also run AD&D too).

However, 4th Ed is like asking you to drive with character and style regardless of what car you own but only giving you a purely powered car.

Allow me to add my two cents worth:

A system doesn't make or break RP. A single rule "pretend you are.." is sufficient for any RP (if you're a good rp gamer).

However, 4th Ed does somewhat leans toward powerplay instead of roleplay. It needs to spell out every rule, make every character useful and X vs Y = success or fail...etc

I read some postings and people are critizing that bard sucks and hence not played and hence poor roleplay...hence 4.0 better than 3.5...sigh.

Give me a bard and I'll show you what is roleplay.

Even if my mage at level 1 cannot cast any more spells (only 1 level one spell and a few level 0), I can still roleplay and make the game more "real" and enjoyable...that's roleplaying! Not at-will powers at my beck and call! Usefulness doesn't warrant good roleplaying...think Raistlin in "Dragons of Autumn Twilight"....a featherfall and sleep and his rasping away...

Possibly those gamers who gravitate toward 4th ed isn't wrong except that they are already good roleplayers but 4th ed without proper guidance for new gamers will turn them into powerplayers.

Take for example: Do you see any MTG players roleplaying out a game? That's Hasbro.

Another example:
A recent outing at a local gaming store and I overheard a few gamers (and one RPGA DM to boot) talking about taking this feat and that (in 3.5 D&D)...so I popped a question (actually one leads to another), "shouldn't some feat require roleplay or a sort of quest to obtain instead of opening up the rulebook and choosing it? Or the character can learn it from a retired beggar who once is a mighty warrior?" What I got was a few shocked looks and open mouth?

My next question (after a few exchanges of opinions) was "can a character be allowed to perish if it lends to good roleplaying and the player is duly rewarded thereafter with another character with more abilities or something? I got another set of aghasted looks...sigh

So RP in 4th ED? It's not the rules but the players but the rules will attract that sort of play.

Actually, I don't think D&D is costly as compared to a electronic gaming genre.

I will not say about the situation now (as I can definitely afford it and sort of abuse my spending) but twenty years ago, all I had was the red basic box set, a dice set (those that you had to write the numbers on), paper and pencil.

Total cost = $39.90 (I think that's what it cost then). It took me at least over 2 months to save up the money (meanwhile "borrowing" from my friend's elder brother)

This in itself was sufficient to accrue months of fun between myself and friends (a group of 9). Subsequently, I remembered on that same year, we pooled our money and book the expert set and at least 2 game modules (second hand).

What I believe is we're living in an age of extravagant spending on our hobby. Just like the electronic version of gaming, if that gamer also spent extravagantly (gaming mouse, high resolution monitor, improved CPU, RAM, graphic card, heatsink, headset,...etc), it will be definitely much much more than our pen-and-paper genre :)