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I have seen kneejerk reactions to 3PP from some Dms. It's either Paizo and official and only that kind or material. Without even looking at 3PP. Or using the excuse that someone told them it was broken. So that means beyond any shadow of doubt that 3pp is broken. I'm all fine with a DM not wanting to use 3pp. At the very least familiarize oneself with 3pp before just saying no to it. If I listened to every instance of something being "broken" in the hobby I would never have bought anything beyond the core.
As for 3.5 being better I found that Wotc devs more than willing to to introduce new and interesting mechanics. The execution may not have always been good. At least they tried. i find that Paizo is too conservative. CRaft Ooze. Usually with Wotc either you could control it. Or it was loyal to the creator with Paizo it's neither and a waste of a feat imo.
That being said when Wotc amde mistakes they made them imo. I remember taking I think it was a Techsmith prestige class. One gets a Gondman as a construct. Think a really horrible terrible mcuh version of a Gearsman. It's bad enough one needs to be a decent level and need certain requirements for the class. Except they nerf the living daylights out of the Gondsman. The first pit trap it fell into it was destroyed.
To me at least both Paizo and Wotc both have good and bad material imo.
If the DM allows 3pp and this book you can be Sir Bearington. Complete with Human Cohort if one takes Leadership. Otherwise I'm in agreement with the others. Many Druid spells can't be cast on the Fighter.
Jeff you don't have to convince me. As I'm in favor of the bundles. It just that some retailers may not be happy with Paizo doing the bundles. Many business owners don't take a long term view of their business and only take the short term view. To some it might be viewed as Paizo taking away some of their sales. That being said neither should Paizo be held accountable for those lost sales. Humble Bundles are the future to me at least of the hobby. It's a quick, cheaper way to get their products across to a much larger audience.
Very good points OG. All I'm saying is they don't need to appologize for doing Humble Bundles. By them offering those bundles it's going to hurt retailers in one form or another. Offering them then kind of also regret offering them sends mixed messages to the fanbase imo. I'm not saying ignore hobby retailers. The truth of the matter is most consumers by online. This is from personal experience of having worked in retail for 15 years.
I worked for the biggest chain of bookstores in Canada. Once word of mouth and by going on their online site. That prices were cheaper online, sales in stores fell sharply. We had to tell customers that the online price was not going to be matched in store. We as booksellers were told to essentially tell customers what amounted to "rationlizations" as to why they could not get the online price. Can anyone here guess what happened more often not. A lost customer. They did not care why they can't get the cheaper price. If they can't get it they were going to go online. Even if it meant not supporting local bookstores. Or if they did support them it was the used bookstore. Over 15 years we went from full bookstores to the equivalent of retail ghost towns. Only inhabited by those who come in and spend a entire day reading but not buying books.
So even if Paizo goes out of their way to help hobby retailers the average customer will vote with their wallet first. Their loyalty to to the retailer comes second or even a distant third. Meaning they will check if Amazon has it cheaper first then buy in store. I'm not saying everyone will. From what I say in the book industry before i left. A huge amount of them go online.
Or as AdAstraGames has pointed out those that want to survive diversfy the products they carry. Carry only what sells. Sell snacks and other non-rpg related materials. Or stop stocking items and only order them in with the customer obligated to leave a deposit.
The fact that Paizo is doing and will probably keep doing more Humble Bundles kind of is going against the wishes of retailers imo. One can't have it both ways as a company. Do their own thing and anger some hobby retailers while also trying to please them. One way or the other your not going to please everyone. I'm in favor of both more bundles and helping hobby retailers. Except out of the two offering more humble bundles is the way the hobby is moving forwards with. I can't go into a gaming store and get such a great deal.
As much as i maybe critical of Paizo. I will never ever criticize them for their Humble Bundles. Or any other method they use to get their product to their fans. Paizo needs to do what they need to do to make a profit and increase visibility of their products. While also trying to reach the maximum amount of fans as possible. Whether we like it or not Humble Bundles are the way to go imo. While it's good if they can help the local gaming stores they are under no obligation to do so imo.
Mutants and only mutants facing prejudice makes sense if say 80-90% of humanity has no superpowers of any kind with 10-20% being mutants. In a world where 50%+ seems to have some kind of superpower or have the technology means to build and acquire them it makes no sense imo. The 10-12 ft tall orange talking rock (The Thing) gets a almost free pass on prejudice because he and the rest of the FF received their powers from cosmic radiation. If anything with the event that start the first Civil War. Their should have been a huge backlash against anyone and everyone with a superpower mutant and non-mutant. Instead mutants and only mutants get the short end of the stick. Asgardian and Skrull invading it's okay they can get a free pass on prejudice because one is alien the other magical.
It matters not the devastation both are responsible for. Damn those mutants and only them for being different and possible being the next step in human evolution. With so many people being different from the norm and nod not just mutants. With racism being so rarely selective the constant hatred on mutants by the writers not only make no sense. It's a obvious, clumsy, heavy handed, boring, stale, rehashed attempt at them using the racism card in the X-men. Don't get me started on the average person causal acceptance of giant killer anti-mutant robots casually going through their neighbourhoods. Ripping apart peoples homes and families. But hey it's okay because damn those mutants and only them for being different and possible being the next step in human evolution. Yeah I used to be a fan of anti-mutant part of the X-men not so much anymore as it never develops beyond humanity blaming mutants and only them for the worlds problems over and over.
Before anyone says it. Sure some characters face fear and prejudice other than mutants. Comparing to what the X-men go through it's not even remotely the same. Not by a long shot.
One thing that some people tend to ignore when they are told to go to College is to earn a degree that will actually lead to if not a good job. A decent enough one that allows one to pay their bills and have some money for themselves. Going to College than getting a degree in Ancient Chinese languages is not the fault of those who told one to go to College. It's the person fault who decided to waste time on a degree not worth the paper. Doing one own thing is all well and good. Taking a subject they will have fun with at College the same. Not realizing that their chocie was a poor one because of "reasons" it's on them. In the end a person is responsible for one own choices good or bad. So the whole "but they told me to go to College" is just a excuse and a poor one for people terrible life choices imo.
I made a poor choice when going to College and ended up having a student loan. I paid it off but I'm not blaming friends or family because they told me to go to College. It's my fault and mine alone for making the wrong choice.
That was a pretty crappy thing to do with a spell ;) Still bonus points for recycling I suppose.
It's not so much that a powerful race is dsiliked. so much that many of the non-standard races are enemies of the core races in the CRB. A Orc, Hobgoblin, Kobold is going to be the victim of racism or bigotry imo. At the very least he will standout like a sore thumb say in a human town or village. While for example the Orc might be left alone in a more openminded town. One can bet that the city guards will be following him every step of the way at least at first and if the character is alone.
I think what is forgotten that many established fantasy backgrounds are simply not politically correct if run properly. Many have slavery, racsim and bigotry. It's for lack of a better word a core race world after all.
Well I did say not to use it every single session. Yet never bringing it up means a player gets a more powerful race with all the benefits and none of the penalties. That the benefit and also the negative of playing a non-standard race. Do the players allow it knowing that it may come up every couple of sessions. Or feel like they could have taken a simiarly powered race as the Drow never faces bigotry and racism. It needs to be a fine balance. As The Jeff has mentioned both sides need to be on the same page.
We are in agreement in that both sides need to be clear what they want. What kind of game elements they want such as slavery, racism etc..
It's interesting that on one hand as a hobby some members complain that their too much rollplaying and not enough roleplaying. Then on the other hand complain about the reverse. If a player takes a Drow and racism towards them is a element of the game. The players either need to accept that to some extent it will happen in their travels. Or the player who is a Drow take another race. In the end roleplaying is so much more than the usual standard social encounters in a rpg imo. What made Drizzt so interesting in the novels to me at least. Is how no matter how he faces racism and bigotry he tries to rise above it. I find a player who also does that with a Dm who encourages it much more interesting. I'm not saying it needs to come up every session. Almost never defeats the purpose as well.
They should talk about yet depending on the setting easier than done sometimes imo. For example Drow are considered evil throughout the Forgotten Realms with few very few exceptions. For a player to choose to play one means becoming a target of bigotry and racism. Otherwise what's stopping everyone from taking Drow, Orc, Hobgoblins or any other more powerful race. Why take human when one can be a Hobgoblin with no repercusions. I get some don't want racism and bigotry in rpgs. Yet they are sometimes tied into the setting. whether we like it or not. Drow would need a major reworking setting wise to be accepted. A DM already has enough one one plate.
Either the table comes to a consensus on how much racism and bigotry they want. Or a player may have to find another table. As much as I want to accomadate a player wanting to play a Drow they are not going to be welcome with open arms at least the frist few levels at most places. Play a non-standard race means taking the positivces with the negatives. Otherwise just play a core race or one that is not subject to bigotry and racism.
It's also easier to do with homebrew setting where A DM and players can define what level of racsim they want. If I were to run a PF game with FR chances are good I'm not going to alter much if anything of it. So the player either accepts their maybe some elements he or she may not like or find another table.
Depending on the setting bigotry can be a small or big part of what a character faces depending on what kind of race a player takes imo. A dark elf in most settings will face some kind of discrimination. It took Drizzt sometime to be accepted in some places in the Forgotten Realms. Even then he is not universally accepted. A player should face the same at least at first. Given time he or she maybe accepted but again not everywhere. Same thing if a player was running a Half-Orc. It's up to the DM and players to decide how politically correct they want to make a homebrew or established Fantasy setting. As more often than not non-standard races can and will face bigotry. If a player wants something non-standard in terms of race he or she should understand that it may come with both postives and negatives.
Forgot about evil being a unthinkable killing machine ala Jason Vorhees. Swarms I hate them as well. They can TPK a unprepared party.
Having heard and read about certain elements of the rpg. I refuse to say that it will be a fantasy heartbreaker. After all I could be mistaken and it will do well. Mechanics aside and as others have said it will come up against a some stiff competition in a saturated rpg market imo. If it's one thing our market does not lack it's fantasy rpgs.
I'm not saying it's not a great game. Just that in North America gamers have been spolied with a market that is going more towards rules light and narrative. Rather than the opposite. I mean their is gamers who insist calculating Thaco is hard. I'm not saying it won't sell. Just not as well as it could. I could be wrong and will admit if I am.
People keep trying to bring realism into the Space Opera Genre. It simply does not work. Otherwise no signal sent out and the end of the Rebellion. Of course realistically the manuever used to destroy the shield should have never worked. Yet Space Opera usually does not follow any law of physics. When they do it's Space Opera physics. It's the same way that instead of frightening non-aligned races by destroying a planet. The Empire simply made things worse and they ended up joining the Rebellion. Everyone afraid of someone who has a world destroying weapon right up until they lose it. Then they simply realize they have nothing to lose and fight back.
The hobby is expnsive somewhat. Sure it's not like buying a car. Yet one spend alot of money over time. The average hardcover now costs 50$ or more Canadian. The Villan Codex is 55$ or more. Buy three hardcovers and your at 150$ or so before tax. My only regret is that if given the chance I would buy only rpgs I would use. Rather than clutter my shelves with rpgs that will never see use.
So your selling the same material twice and expecting it to somehow be as successful the first time around. That could very well be but I'm skeptical that it will. Those in the hobby won't be be rushing out to buy a rehash imo. It's why some still play 3.5. even if PF is superior imo. As they feel it's more of the same. It could go either way. Which is why I'm not assuming it will be the auto-success that some assume it will be. Notr will I assume a full 2E will be as successful either. It could go either way. Chances are we will never see any major changes anyway. Or even a revised better organized CRB. Not unless they sell out of all their current printings. Nor will i assume that people will stop buying simply because I'm unhappy with some elements of the rpg.
BTW I never said it was just about me. Their are plenty who feel the same way. They simply are less vocal about it. I never said a new edition.
Possibly but I also think some vastly overestimating how many people want to buy the same rules twice. Just because some do does not mean everyone else will. Just as I won't assume everyone wants to by a completley new edition.
They need to offer both old and new material. Simply offering a rehash with better production values, organization and art. While make some fans happy give me and others very little reason to purchase the CRB. If it's the same materail why would I want to buy it twice. I get people don't want their collections invalidated. Neither do I want the exact same thing to be sold to me twice either.
I'm not disputing that. I'm just not sure if it will be as popular in North America. Their some that find Thaco to calculate difficult. We have also been spoiled with easier game mechanics. For example M&M main mechanic is D20+modifiers vs DC. A rpg that uses more math and is complex for legacy reason may not be a huge hit. I may very well be wrong and I will admit it if I am.
While I'm glad that their is a another new fantasy rpg. I'm not sure how successful it will be. I don't know how the rpg market is in Europe. Yet from the last decade or so in North America I have seen a trend towards less crunchy and complex rpgs. With a more narrative element. Introducing one with little to no changes with a complex set of rules is not a good idea imo. We have members in the community who think is complex so while I think it will sell not as well. From what I heard it's one of those editions where they wanted to please their fans and only their fans first and then make a rpg for everyone else. In the long run like Harn, Hero System 6E it's going to end up being another nice rpg in the hobby imo. Leaving D&D out of the argument as no fantasy rpg will ever touch it in popularity. I cannot see a person who is playing a easier more modern fantasy rpg to simply stop playing it and switch over to TDE. I heard it has a decent background but again as long as they keep using the same system it won't leave much of a impression in the rpg market. I probably wrong and hope to be.
Seeing the above example just makes me feel it will be another fantasy heartbreaker.
Can I ask you for the name of the 3pp sorucebook?
Funny enough ever so often in my neck of the woods its "why do people only want to play PF an not 2E" instead. As for everyone asking that kind of question. It's very rare. Unless one is talking to a edition warrior. Most players in the hobby want to have fun. Not go around pointing out to each other why one is playing Edition A VS B imo.
I never said it's not a a benefit to my game. Just that the current system either needs a codified set of rules on what a person who takes a alignment is allowed to do and can;t do. Or rewritten to be less open ended and vague. I get the point your trying to make Pan. I see no good reason why we can't improve the current alignment system. Just because it works for some does not mean it works for all. It can and does need improvement. As long as the system is so open ended and vague no amount of commuication is going to solve anything imo. Espcially when players and Dms are dead set on playing alignments a certain way.
I'm pretty sure they've said that Starfinder is to Pathfinder what Pathfinder was to 3.5. What that means in practice we'll find out when Starfinder comes out.
As long as it's more than just a rehash with new art and better production values I think it will sell fairly well. Otherwise it will still sell just not as well as it could. I'm not sure a decent amount of the fanbase simply wants more of the same. It kind of hard to justify buying it again imo.
Starfinder though has to cater to both old and new fans. Offer enough new material without it being a new edition. Simply taking the PF core and putting in new art and better organization. While helpful and useful. Is not worth purchasing a second time to my group and myself. That's the main issue with Starfinder or any attempt at any new edition. They won't please everyone nor should they imo. One way or the other some fans will be lost. Just like the transition between 2E and 3E. The solution is either more Unchained books or a new edition.
It comes down to finding a proper middle ground. Not changing too much. Yet also making sure not to change too little. Both options will alienate fans.
If it's the same core book with better organization and art. But nothing changed. Their is very little reason for people to buy the same material twice. Even buying online I can't personally justify the expense. As for 4E and 5E. Just as 5E was announced. A month or so later. Suddenly Pathfinder Unchained is announced as a new product by absolute sheer coincidence. With a bunch of optional rules and fixes to certain classes. That up until that point. The devs were in no real hurry to fix. PU was released because unlike fans they saw that they might lose some fans to 5E and with the book try to keep them.
I find it both funny and strange that some here think the name Pathfinder is something that will turn away those interested in the rpg. Mostly no one cares imo. When we have a generic system that sounds like it's named after a bowel movement (Gurps). It still seems to sell fairly well imo. Unless the rpg has something truly negative attached to it say like FATAL again no one cares. If it's something that seems fun and interesting a person will buy it.
Alignment I think is something that either needs to be written and developed properly. Or removed altogether. If other rpgs can get buy without and it makes the game run smoothly for both players and DMs why do we really need it. Or better explained instead of vague descriptions too open to abuse by both players and DMs. Even Order of the Stick makes fun of it and with good reason.
John Napier 698 wrote:
Good point. Though imo I still think they show the tech as is for the fans. As well as a tribute to 1970s Sci-Fi though that's just my theory.
As for Kyle Katarn said to see him no longer be part of canon. I kind of liked that their could be "Gray" Jedi. Neither light nor dar and able to use both sides of the force. It was very satisfying to be attacked by robots only to blast them with Force Lightening.
As for how the imperials knew where to track the rebel ships. All part of the genre that is Space Opera. The same way the rebels instead of burying their sheild generator to protect it on Hoth. Decided to leave it out in the open. It makes little sense but it makes for a good space opera.
The issue and granted it's mostly a player one imo. Is to avoid having those who play classes tied to alignments going "well you can't do that your not playing your alignement". If it's okay for say a CG to steal gold from someone only for a good cause. Instead of being told they are not properly playing their alignment they can instead respond by saying they are. With the current system it's unclear and left too open ended imo.
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