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Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Agreed and seconded. Not to say that they don't do some extra work at Gencon. Neither were they building a school from scratch for orphans in Africa. I hope that this time around it's in PDF format for easy download. I really don't want to work my way through all the errata needed for the ACG section by section.
I will concede it may not be unwillingness. Yet while I will still buy product I expect the poor editing and mistakes to continue.
While I will still buy more Paizo books I'm not expecting the editing to get better. Here's why.
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
For the most part I like Pathfinder. To the point where I can no longer play in a game of 3.5. AS I lkike what they did with some of the classes. I don't have any anger towards the devs. Just a lot of frustration as to me at least in some cases they just don't listen. What I mean by that is that they can't seem to find the right middle ground when designing something new. At this point with all their knowledge and experience they should be doing it in their sleep. Either a feat is too good like Sacred Geometry. Or not that good like Slashing Grace. It's one thing if they did their own thing without feedback. Instead they do get feedback and it gets ignored. Usually for the worse instead of better. Which leads to them making the same mistakes in designing new material.
I'm sure someone will point out that they don't have to listen to feedback. Which is true they don't. Then again why bother with feedback at all if they are going to do their own thing anyway. The D&D community for better or worse is a very vocal community. Paizo was imo opening a can of worms when they started asking for player feedback. When gamers give feedback they eventually wan the developers to use it. Ignoring it as I said above gives way to frustration and a lack of faith in the developers. For me what impressed me the least with the ACG was when a poster asked for better quality control and were told "well it's simply not possible". At this point its a unwilligness to do do better. When your release for Gencon is poorly edited with mistakes ad a wrong cover uyou strive to do better. Not say that your unable to imo.
I still enjoy the game and will run and keep playing it. I don't think the rpg or the devs are perfect. If I see something I don't like I will comment on it. Whether I like the rpg or not.
As Paizo can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.
First gamers complained they were too liberal in the changes and what they did with 4E. I really don't blame Wotc for being conservative. Given how rpgs are not as popular as before and comptetion from other forms of entertainment. Better to be safe imo. As for releasing stuff and hope it sells Paizo is doing the same thing imo. When PF was first released they did not release as many books. Once it took off we have a bunch of stuff that comes out every month.
Seconded. Players want to make characters asap. If it means less choices than so be it. I don't agree with that type of philosophy yet understand it.
I'm curious Sunshadow do you have anything good to say about 5E or Wotc? It's like listening to a broken record. We get it you don't like 5E or Wotc. I can respect that even is I don't agree with it. Could not keep repeating yourself by downplaying everything Wotc has achieved. Or the merits of 5E. It's not even a month since the 5E release and your nothing but doom and gloom.
Agreed and seconded. So far I'm liking what I see. Not sure if I will ever run let alone play it. For the first time in a long time I want to play a Paladin. I do think that 5E may give PF a run for it's money.
What stopping them from buying cheaper older copies of the current edition then using the SRD or the free PDF as you mention to take what they need of the new rules. Were talking about a 50-60$ purchase. Not many gamers want to spend that money again just for a few new houserules tossed into the core. Gamers are also cheap as well. You want to bet the first thing that will be said as a complaint that it's more of the same.
They should and knowing Paizo they will. Were not guaranteed that they will.
It still has to be worth the 5o-60$ of purchasing the same material again. I like organized well written core books. I'm not going to buy the same book again because of it. Not unless 30%+ of the material is new. With the free SRD and Apps the core is not the only geteway to the game. I have a APP that for five or is it six dollars I have the entire catalog of hardcovers. With the exception of the ACG. Let's not forget 5E as well. Unlike 4E it seems to have been better received by the fans at least so far.
@ Devils Advocate. You used WW to point out that how edtions are not needed. They are doing a new one. So using them as a comparison is not a good one. Call what you want it is a new edition. With Exalted, Scion and Trinity Contimuum all being rereleased. With a new core and the core WW lines all getting new core books imo it is a new edition. Why rerelease all the core books if it was not at least different enough to do so. Not that it's a bad thing I enjoy WOD. I call it what it is.
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Too bad White Wolf is still going ahead with a new edition and rereleasing the core with the GMC stuff inside and a whole new set of core books. http://theonyxpath.com/the-world-of-darkness-second-edition/ Notice that nowhere do they mention that the new edition is backwards compitble.
I get your point. Except their is a difference between a reprint of the core and working on another edition. With a new edition some in the hobby expect something new. If it's a rehash people will not buy imo. Not everyone has 100$ to invest in a core and a Besitiary with no changes. Who unless they are truly a huge fan of the system and company. Half my gaming table has yet to buy the core. Why bother when the free SRD is up. The Apps are cheaper.
If the design goal is to please everyone in the design process it's doomed to failure. The devs will never get 100% approval on anything. All that matters is if a majority are happy with it. If that means no changes to the exisiting rpg. Than so be it. I will be dissappointed yet still keep playing and buying product. If the no change side wins then my advice to the devs is not even waste time on the next edition. Gamers don't like buying the same rpg twice with no changes. With apps and the SRD it's going to probably be the first time imo that 0the PFcore is not going to sell as well imo
It's interesting how those who do not want any change or little expect Paizo to work on then sell such a edition. Why would I or anyone else buy it. If there is nothing new. Why even waste time or effort on playtesting what is essentially a rehash. Good luck trying to sell the same game twice by the way. I don't see it as being as successful as this one. First gamers are cheap. Second the community in general is in no mood for another 3.5 rehahsh. How do you plan to generate interest in a product with no changes. I'm sure to be ignored yet I'm curious.
While I would not mind to see Vancain caasting go away it should still remain while offering a new system for casting spells side by side. No new magic system means zero interest for me and others. I have the current edition if I want to play with just vancian casting.
Martials should get nice things. Both Wizards and Martails should be able to do amazing things in game. If the new edition or rehashed editions keeps martials from getting nice things good luck trying to sell it is all I'm going to say. As again I can stick to this edition.
Backwards compitabiliy would be nice yet not a must. Again no reason to buy a rehashed edition if that is a design goal because the current allows me to do the same already.
I saw what I saw and all we can do is disagree. As I don't want to thread jack any further.
While it would be good for a new edition to be backwards computable it does not have to be IMO. As the current one is already.
There fans who refuse to come to the forums because of the core playtest. Some in the hobby consider the core playtest a sham because a very vocal subset of fans chased them away. I'm not one of them because I own a lot of material.
Why is my asking for a fair and unbiased playtest bother you so much. Is it because of a fear that they might change something. That's the risk of a playtest.
And here we go with people misunderstundaing what I said.
I want a playtest where everyone is heard. Not just myself. Where no set of vocal posters drown out everyone else. I came late to the core playtest and stayed away because a very vocal group kept chasing away anyone who wanted significant changes. I don't want to see the same thing happen again. If it's a serious playtest then everyone pro change and not should be given a fair chance to be heard. Hopefully this clears up everything.
There politely disagreeing and then there shouting people down so they don't get heard while telling them to go elsewhere. Which happened during the playtest of the core. Which I don't want to see happen again. In a playtest everyone should be heard. Not a very select few very vocal posters. I'm surprised that you would think it was a bad thing.
Letting other people on other forums besides this one know about the poll.
Absolutely Hell Yes.
I have no interest in spending 100$+ on a rehashed edition with new art and little or no significant changes. Why buy the same thing a second time. Those who don't want any change forgot well how will Paizo market a product with little changes. Even Chaosium Call of Cthulhu 7E is different enough this time around from what I hear. That being said I'm in the minority so realize it will not happen.
If they do a playtest
If your going to ask for feedsback use some of it. Don't ask for any if in the end your not going to use it.
Your not going to please everyone so don't approach a new playtest with that in mind as imo Paizo is dooming itself to failure.
Keep a very tight rein on those who are very vocal who attempt to sabotage the playtest. Permabanning them if need. We don't need another core playtest debacle imo.
I can see a special race once or twice in a world where you have the core races. To be treated the same by the locals it depends on the race. I can see a furry while raising a eyebrow not get asked too many questions. After all people in town own cats or live in a area with wild cats. A nagaji or Kobold would raise a few eyebrows and would have to prove themselves to the locals. People in my worlds act like real people not locals from a fantasy novel.
I guess we will have to disagree then. They do listen yet imo they do when it suits them to do so. And that's okay because in the end they spent the money on making the rpg from the ground up.
It's hard to feel like they listen when Sacred Geomtery is given the green light. Yet slashing Grace is really not worth it imo. Same thing with Craft Ooze. I wanted a feat that allowed me to create and use oozes in combat. Instead it's a very situational trap feat. I guess the frustration from myself is that their seems to be no proper middle ground on the design process. Either something is very good or very bad. Never a mix of the two imo. At this point with the experience in designing new material they should be finding the proper middle ground in their sleep.
I guess you were not here for when they playtested the core. Anyone who tied to post any major changes were chased away by a very vocal minority who wanted no changes. It happened.
Here the thing about feedback if the fans ask and ask for a proper dex to damage feat and they don't deliver why would it look like they listen to feedback. They were told over and over again by some fans not to allow Gunslingers to target touch AC yet in the end they still did. I'm not saying they have to listen to me or others feedback. Just don't ask for feedback if in the end the devs are going to do their own thing.
Then again to me anyway it's just a good PR exercise. Make the fans think their feedback means something then do the opposite. It makes the fans feel good yet the devs do what they want. To be honest they don't have to listen to feedback. They can take it into account when developing new material. Yet at the end of the day they can and will do their own thing. I may not like it. I can respect it.
At this point we are seeing much more levels of frustration from the fanbase. When they still can't find a proper middle ground on developing new things well it can be frustrating. I have never seen the boards being so very vocal imo. Asking for patience when the end result is the same is also frustrating. It's been how many years they just keep repeating the same mistakes imo.
As for the Rogue the Investigator is so much better in all ways. Except for their version of Sneak attack which still requires a melee weapon. I get your point about the Rogue yet im owe will see a lot more Investigator builds than Rogues in the future.
Don't get me wrong there are good things. Though with the Investigator we might as well just have a tombstone with the heading Rogue RIP 2014 IMO. No reason to take a Rogue anymore. Slayer is good as well. I just think that in the end feedback is useless IMO. As for better or worse the devs will do their own thing.
You think it would be a bonus to some that the person running the game is enthusiastic about it. If happened to a friend of mine as well. He took booted the player out of the game.
Annoying thing by players I have come across.
One who play casters yet by level 5 still don't know any spells by heart. Or uses a cheat sheet. I can understand not memorizing certain spells . How hard is it to remember what Bless dies.
The restrictive DM turned player who wants access to anything and everything in the books. Then when one refuses something complains about it.
Players who channel their inner male chauvinist mysognustic self through their characters at the table. Nothing runic a fans more than seeing a player make lewd, rude comments towards female npcs or players. Had two in my games over theocrats booted them out as soon as that BS began.
Players who ignore any advice at the table. Then when bad things happen get angry and lash out at players. Had his happen in a game two weeks ago. A player lost 11 hp to a trap. Instead of saying " I need to he healed" went on and his character died. Began to pull a fit at the table. Which the DM stopped finally and very grudgingly admitted he screwed up.
Players who make characters unsuitable to the campaign at hand then get mad at both the players and DM when he or she can't do anything. If it's a hack and slash style of game told upfront about it why make a character built only for social encounters who can't hit broadside of barn.
Is told writing game notes is a must to join g the group. Then complains, whines, moans and tries to weasel his way out if doing them.
In the end if the majority if fans want a new edition. With the current version becoming unprofitable they should do a new edition. They are not going to please everyone. Not should they lies money just because some want to stick with a older edition , I only ask that this time around they have a proper play test. The last one was hijacked by a very very vocal minority that wanted no change. Who did they damn best to chase away anyone who disagreed with them.
If not and the majority want more if the same than they stick with the current rules. In the end in not licked into any one rpg.
Editing and mistakes aside as some have said the book is not a total loss. He'll it even close to one. It does bother me that whenever we ask for better quality control the response seems to be " well that simply not possible. ". Which us even more frustrating. It just seems they are unwilling to improve on quality control IMO. I could be wrong yet when we mentioned the same issues with quality control with UMD we were given the same response. It could have been rushed for a Gencon release with the release if 5E. If that is the case it shows.
I will say this with the Investigator Paizo really IMO does not like Rogues IMO. Or very much.
The same thing happened to Pathfinder once they started releasing new material. So it's not just a problem that will happen to 5E.
So I ask the question again if the next edition will not change anything or very little how does one go about selling it. I mean why would myself or others buy the same thing twice. Which keeps getting ignored by the don't change anything group.
I dont mind more rules. Nor more sourcebooks. Its how most if not all rpg companies make their money. I does bother me that because its new people comne across as forcing to use it. No one is bein forced to use anything. My main complaint of the new stuff is lots of interesting fluff but the crunch is severy lacking imo. Or they release badly designed feats or worse classes that are better than what is in th core.
In the product description it mentions a simplified action econom, monster creation, and crafting.
I read that as well. While my interest is high Im nto holding my breath either.
With 5E still being new there is no way to know how well it wil do yet imo. Agree about HeroLab it's very helpful dare I say needed to buil;d characters. Nothing slows a session donw more than the player who even after ten sessions of gaming still has not learned what his character can or cannot do.
I still don't want a second edition though. Happy with Pathfinder Unchained making the slight upgrades I want. And it does have stuff for simplifying combat and monster creation.
I can respect that. Though without major or at least some changes a new edition of PF will be a difficult sale to gamers imo.
What would be the major selling point of a edition that changes nothing or very little.
Backwards compability. We would have PF 1E. So no need to upgrade.
Supporting Paizo. Already did with a purchase of PF 1E. To be blunt it would take myself my gaming group and other like minded players in the hobby something more to upgrade.
Better production values. Again not worth getting the new edition not unless it offers something new. It's going to require more than better organization and new art to get to buy the same material twice.
Agreed and seconded on all points Squirrel_Dude. Sure we can play another rpg. Nothing wrong with trying to improve the current version of PF. It will not suddenly make all current books of Paizo obsolete. I don't get the fear of change from gamers sometimes. Also spare me the 4E fallacy. Not in the mood to hear about it.
Again agreed and seconded.
The thing is if your going to get interest in a new edition it had to have something new to offer. Which is something those who want nothing change forget. If you think all it takes is some new cover and interior art with little to no rule changes. All I'm going to say is good luck. Some in the hobby refuse to play it because they think the cite is too similar to 3.5. My gaming group and myself are not going to fish out another 100+ dollars. Even with the online srd we have little interest in rereading the same rules twice. Even Call of Cthulhu with its latest 7E has some major changes from what I hear.
I understand and respect people who have invested and not wanting to either purchase more material or have older material go obsolete. New editions seem to be a standard in the hobby. White Wolf announced a new edition of the World of Darkness at Gencon. Complete with a release of a new core book and rerelease of the core WOD line. From the looks of it chances are good the new edition will not be backwards computable. I would not mind a simplified version of the rules. Not rules light not that I have anything against it. The rules could use some streamlining. I played a Bard on the last game. I needed to write a cheat sheet just to keep track of the bonuses from spells, feats and class abilities.
At the same time keeping PF unchanged may not sell as well either. Already some in the hobby refuse to buy it because they find it similar to 3.5. Releasing the same rules a second time with little or no changes beyond organization and art means no reason to upgrade from PF 1E. Not unless their is significant changes imo. Myself and my gaming circle will not be buying a PF that offers nothing new. Why buy the same thing twice. It's a catch 22. Damned if thewy do and damned if they don't.
For the most part I like what the devs have done. Yet I'm seeing the happen way too often as of late. I know they are human. I know they like what they do and respect the effort they put into their work. Yet to me at least it feels like they just ignore what done of the fanbase are asking for. At this point they should know better as well. A well designed feat with a proper mix if fluff and crunch should be very easy for them to develop test and print. I think it's a very conservative approach to design which is both a good and bad thing. As it goes I have very little hope for PF Unchained. I'm in no mood to get feats that have great fluff. Yet nothing in terms of crunch. And more feat taxes.
I see your point Chenfor. The devs are much more experienced at this point. Their is a difference between being unable to see the flaws in ones work. Another in seeing the and unwilling to change them. If thus was the first year of development I could understand. Now it's just bad design IMO. I used to be a big fan of palladium books. Yet even after 30+ years of existence the owner still can predict a release schedule correctly.
I never said I was part of the majority. Or when I mentioned some fans the fans that they were. All I asked is that they listen to the feedback and possibly take it into account when designing new things for the game. Or are we no longer allowed to do so.
They don't have to listen to all feedback. Neither should they just simply ignore it either. If a certain feat causes a negative reaction from the fans. I see no reason to repeat it again with other feats. If they insist on repeating the same mistakes they can't really be surprised if the new material gets the same reaction imo. I can't understand why the devs can't seem to find the proper middle ground. Either the feat is too good. or not worth it. Or great fluff yet the crunch barely matches the fluff.
The point is that at this point the devs should be designing feats properly. Instead we keep getting more of the same. I like Pathfinder. I like what the devs have done with the rules for the most part. I do feel like their is a huge disconnect from what some of the fans want. To what they give us. If fans say don't give us a feat similar to Dervish dance. Yet they do just reworded. Why would we be happy. Yes I can houserule it. But I should not have to. They also seem to love feat taxes even when the fans have told them that they don't.
I also agree with Tels. As I said I like the majority of the product. I'm not going to simply keep quiet and ignore rules from them I don't like. If no one says anything nothing will change. Mind you even if we the fans speak up it seems nothing will change either.
To feat is okay. Even if I share Lemmys concerns about it. I can understand the need for Dex to be high enough/ Even Weapon Finesse. Why the need for weapon focus. I would have added improved Critical rapier instead. Or all light weapons. I do wish the devs would listen. Fans disliked Dervish dance because of being tied to the Scimitar. Then they plan on doing it again a second time. I also wish the devs would get out of the conservative everything must be balanced thinking inside the box rut they seem to be stuck in. Not everything needs to have a feat tax.
I dont have an axe to grind. With that said and meaning no insult, your analysis of the situation is a bit simplistic. There are more facits to a business decision than just one source of revenue.
It's a good business decision. simple as that. The only us vs them attitude towards rpg publishers is by the fans or poorly run rpg companies.
I think your selling the devs short. I doubt it will happen in any case. I just don't see the need to worry. The sky won't fall. Posters claimed that more book with more options would spell the end if the rpg. So far that too has not happened IMO.
How would it dilute one Pathfinder material?
I have both Pathfinder and 5E starter set sitting side by side on a shelf. I can tell you that physically they are not at all altered on any level. Having both is not causing me to be unable to like, play or run both either. I get not liking 5E. Let's not go into the realm of ridiculous please. I don't think it ill happen. At least until their is a OGL for 5E.