|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
Again I'm not saying complex rpgs or rules are not popular. I don't think it's as popular as it used to be imo. As for the popularity of Pathfinder some of it is due to character design and the somewhat modular aspect of the system. Some because it's D&D. Which is one of the more popular rpgs on the market. One can't go wrong in writing material for D&D imo. It's also the general change in outlook of the gaming population as well imo. Make a character as fast as possible with the least amount of rules as possible imo. I don't agree with that yet I also can't fault such a philosophy. If there was a miracle pill to lose weight over dieting and exercise I would take the miracle pill in a heartbeat.
Having played third edition then some 4E and now Pathfinder. I'm actually enjoying reading my Rifts books again. From the balance and nerfs of third edition and Pathfinder. To set of rules that for the most part tosses balance out the window is refreshing.
I think it is a factor a big one imo. I used to just be a fan of rulesheavy rpgs. Over the years I went more towards rules light. I still enjoy rules heavy. It's not my preference. At the same time I think some in the hobby put up with rules heavy rpgs because at the time that was the only thing avaliable imo. When rules light came out being easier and faster and to learn. They went towards that. Look at the market. The main non-D&D rpgs of the moment are Fate followed by Savage Worlds. I have yet to see any new rpg that is rules heavy become popular. I might be wrong and they may very well be. So far I'm not seeing anyone releasing it.
With Hero the 5E of the book is very large. Already some who wanted to get back into the system were frightened away. With 6E they catered just to the hardcore fanabse. With no real significant changes to the system. No attempt to reduce the complexity. Made worse that it became two big books. It was almost like they listened to no one but the hardcore fans. Between the cost of both books.The cost of publishing both books. No attempt to offer much in terms of new material in a new edition. Think a 3.5. to PF. The trend towards rules light games. Vastly overestimating the popularity of the system. Compared to D&D fans the number of Hero System fans imo is nowhere even close. It was a disaster imo waiting to happen.
I think people in the hobby forget. If for example I dislike rules heavy/complex systems. Why would I invest in it another time. If the changes between editions is so small again why invest. Having bought both core books. I returned 6E and am sticking with 5E. More support and no real incentive to switch over. I liked the changes in 6E. The price tag was simply not worth it imo.
I think to a certain extent it is that simple. Why use the rpg that is more complex. When one can do the same in a rules light rpg. Maybe it's a changing community of gamers. To be honest I don't know. Rules complex rpgs are here to stay to be sure. I just don't see the trend suddenly revering from rules light ro complex anytime soon.
their the thing. I may not like every rpg on the market. I'm not telling people not to play them. Or assume that because I dislike a rpg then everyone else will or should. Too often in the hobby their is no middle ground. It's the same logic and I use the term loosely. When someone says a rpg will fail because they don't like it. I may dislike some design elements of Pathfinder. I don't think it's going to fail.
While I like complexity it's not what the current or even some of the older generation like imo. If they did companies like Hero Games would be making a profit. As it stands HG is not dead but on life support. There more uodates on 3pp support then any new product. Gurps while still supported by Steve Jackson Games relies more heavily on Munchkin for their profits.
Developers of tabletop rpgs have to go with the trends imo. If it's more complexity then they publish rpgs with that. If it's rules light the same. I don't think were every going to see a return to rules heavy rpgs. I'm not saying they will disappear. Just that for better or worse rules light rpgs are here to stay. Nor can I see a negative. Short of the rules light rpgs not being as comprehensive. Even then I sometimes wonder if they really are rules light. Instead of one big book like Hero System 5E they spread the rules over multiple sourcebooks. It feels lighter because it's more spread out.
Don't mention FATAL ever. Though I get the point. I'm old school as well. 5E appeals to me. I like complex crunchy systems. I also like rules light as well. To me Pathfinder is a mix of the two. Which I like as well. The whole "rpg xyz is dumbed down" is simply someone saying that they don't like the rpg while trying not to say it. It's the same in the hobby when someone goes " I'm not against change in a rpg but" then proceed to really show that they don't liek change. I also wish some would also stop talking for the me and everyone else in the hobby. Just because some don't like 5E or any other rpg does not necessairly mean that everyone else will. I'm pretty sure some old school gamer besides myself like 5E.
Well at the same time I'm not sure I really should be thanking them for something any smart company does. Giving and having customer service is a must for most companies. Some can get by because of having deep pockets. I guess for me to consider anyone a family member and/or friend it has to be someone I know for a long time. Not someone who sells me a product. Despite my complaints about their product. I do think the people that work at Paizo are good people. At the same time I barely know them.
No Gunslingers. The touch ACs of many of the npcs are so easy to hit it becomes a turkey shoot for the Gunslinger. Espcially if the person running the Gunslinger has no system mastery. The person running the character did so much damage in my games. I was doubling in some cases tripling the hit points to avoid a one shot kill. A dedicated archer is better and is less of a headache for a DM. If traps are a worry I would recommend the Archeologist or Investigator. I find both do a better job of trapfinding then the Rogue does. Or a Bard with a level dip with Rogue.
My only other recommendation is to take a hard look at what the party can do and then at the npcs. Like most APs the npcs are poorly built. So much so that even a party with beginners could easily defeat some of the BBEGS. For example one of them has no crowd control spells yet the pcs are supposed to fight the npc in a enclosed area. As well the human fort occupied by Ogres should be redone completely. Large creatures in a medium sized structure are at a disadvantage. Keep the Ogres outside the fort. Replace with Bugbear, Hobgoblins or Orcs. Not to mention the Ogres in Pathfinder are a rather special lot. Think the Hills have Eyes types. So that may bother some more squeamsih players.
I'm thinking of running the Adventure Path at a alter date set in Golarion. Which god would replace the Greyhawk gods?
St Cuthbert = Iomedea
Pelor = Sarenrae
Kord = Gorum?
Wee Jas = Nethys
Olidammara = Cayden Cailean
Fharlanghn = Desna
Moradin = Torag
Yondalla = Chaldira
Garl Glittergold = Abadar
Anyone I'm missing from the list? Or that others have added?
At low levels and in the hands of someone who does not know what he is doing. Then sure a Wizard at low level may not have as much damage output as a martial character. To sit there and tell me with a straight face at mid to high levels casters damage output sucks. I can honestly say that you don't know what your talking about. Again unless the person running the Wizard is a complete novice to the hobby. Otherwise just with the core I can do so much more than a martial character without their support. Who needs martial support when one can summon Elementals. Who are Neutral in alignment and are unaffected by any of the Protection spells. Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Cone of Cold, Ice Storm etc.. Casters stink with causing damage at high levels...gimme a break.
I meant no offence Jeff. It is a interesting case study in terms of gamer behaviors and tastes though.
I'm not that huge a fan of 4E like I used to be. I would probably play in a game of it. I'm more interested in 5E. Or even something completely different like Rifts. Though David true feeling about 5E do keep emerging as this thread keeps going on imo. He tries to pass himself as being open minded about yet is anything but imo.
David Bowles wrote:
Both players and dms should know their spells and abilites. I find that I could run a 5E with little preparation and not have to worry about it slowing down in play. Eve nwith Hero Lab and a cheat sheet the various modifier in Pathfinder can be a pain in the behind.
David Bowles wrote:
People proficient with 3.X don't have to bend over to make it work. Speed and ease of play only get you so far.
You kind of do actually at mid to higher levels imo. A cheat sheet is almost mandatory imo. As most modifiers don't stack. So if I cast a spell that provides a morale bonus. The cleric with Nobility as a domain can't use his Inspiring Word domain ability as they don't stack. Then their is the various modifiers from spells and items one needs to keep track off. As again similar bonuses don't stack. Take a look at the description for Haste as a spell it's not a lot but enough to remember.
The game slows down when players who use casters don't know their spells. Flipping through the core and various books the delays do add up. One had the same problem in previous edition as well. Not so much as in third edition/PF. Even as a dm having tio flip through books to find out what feat XYZ does slows the game down. Trying running a game frm level 1-20 with players and a dm who does not prepare ahead of time and tell me how fast it goes.
David Bowles wrote:
Well CR is a good way to judge if a group of players can fight something. One can also use the throw a powerful monster and hope the players run away approach. Except that leads to tpks and unhappy players.
David Bowles wrote:
I think your putting too much faith in organized play. Most games unless players and dms can't find players are home games imo. We were running games long before Paizo even had a organized play.
I assumed as much since he keeps tryingt to compare what 5E can do to PF
It did make it easier to run the game as well. Their is no CR limits in 2E. Or anything that helps with judging what one can throw at a approriate level party. It seems to me at least trial and error. Which can leads to tpks. Uild" a game that is true. It also added some more complexity to the game as well.
I play PF and dislike some elements as well. It's fdunny because many elements of 5E were in 4E. They just repackaged them differently so hearing a fellow gamer like one but not the other is interesting. Same reason that 4E was less complex than third edition because fans asked for it. Yet with 4E is was not as well received. Now with 5E it is. We really don't know what we want sometimes do we.
I think you maybe surprised. The attitudes of gamers have changed imo. gone are the days where a player will bend over backwards to make a rpg system work. They find one that is fast, easy and with relatively small amount of flaws and stay with that. It's the reason why Hero System despite being one of the more complete and flexiable generic rpgs on the market has lot much of it's market share. With Fate, Savage Worlds that while not as comprehensive are much faster and easier to play and run. Gamers with more than one choice of rpg just don't want to put with issues within rpgs imo. It's not just the younger generation as well. When the hobby stops becoming fun and feels like a job most take a hard look at the rpgs they run and play and switch accordingly.
I'm not sure what you mean by that David. Your a very confusing poster. D&D whatever it's version has always had a D&D feel to it. From the boxed sets to 5E. There have always been D&Disms imo. Vancian casting in one form or another. Caster who can't wear armor. Druids being nature lovers. The list goes on. Third edition simply removed many of the onetruwayism of 2E. Only humans allowed to go any level. demi-humans with level limits. Proficiences and non-proficinces. Which they just renamed into class skill anyway. While 3E and later D&D has more flexibility it still very much has its elements of D&D.
If that bothers you maybe another fantasy rpg is in order imo. Every game has it's unique elements. If as a player one is used to just charging into battle I don't recommend either Earthdawn or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It's easy to die in those rpgs imo.
Good point. I do we can agree that a 5E that was 3.5 unchanged would not sell well.
The interesting thing about 5E and it being more simpler to run. Is more and more outside of these boards those in the hobby once they finish their existing PF games will switch to 5E. It's like when 3E came out and 2E games began drying up. I go to other sites and the general feeling is that some put up with Pathfinder flaws because they had to and disliked 4E. Now with 5E they no onger want to deal with those flaws. I think 5E may actually give Paizo a run for it's money.
At this point with 5E I don't think they can re-release a unchanged PF. If they can at least do something about high level play then maybe. If the game still slows down at high levels I can see those in the hobby panning the new edition. Gamers want a rpg that gives them opitions while also being if not rules light easier to use. They put up with the flaws because they have too. Not because they want to.
Stagnation. Sameness. Boredom. Unwillingness to do new stuff. Complacency.
Seconded. As well as personality clashes and some unacceptable behavior for a adult. For example I recently asked two players who were brothers not to show to the game anymore. They had to go to a BBQ and not show up to one of my games. All fine because sometimes one wants to do more than just gaming. Except the week of the game when I hold my games on Saturday they decide to tell me they can' show Friday night. Again sometimes stuff like that happens at the last minute. They knew the Monday of that week. Instead of telling me before they told me at the last minute because they have self imposed internet days. Which was a load of BS because outside of work all they do is play MMOS for hours on end. Why not take 10-15 mins to send me a text or email before the hours long mmos sessions. Then acted to not understand why I and the rest of the players were angry and unhappy.
Another player kept using his mental illness as a excuse for bad behavior. After a point mentally ill or not one can only take so much. Espcially when the player is getting the right amount of help and the proper meds. It reached a point where we wall walked on egg shells because none of knew what would set him off. It all came to a head one day when he had a huge hissy fit because he wanted to pronounce the word sensei a certain way which was the wrong way and we tried to tell him the right way. Stomping off slamming the door as hard as he could on the way out. After again not his fault it was the illness. H also had the bad habit of trying to cause situations in game if he was not the center of attention.
The player who wants to play a race with a negative reputation without having to suffer from the reputation. Then accuses the dM of being racist.
There a point where whatever the reasons good, bad or even valid one does not want to deal with old members of a gaming group.
Well I don't really consider 3E and 3.5. that much different. For me 3.5 was just a rehash like Pathfinder with a few house rules added in. I'm not saying every gamer in the hobby would not buy 5E if it was just another rehash of 3.5 with better art. It would sure as hell not be the same amount that bought 3E or Pathfinder. At most you might get a few that buy the PDF. A entire gaming group buying the same thing a third time. All I'm going to say is good luck.
The only reason I bought Pathfinder is because besides what they did to the Fighter I like the changes and it's supported. As well I sold off all my 3E books as well. So if I have to buy the same thing again I might as well go with the latest supported version. If I had kept my 3E material chances are good all I would be using is the online SRD to supplement my 3E material. Without buying anything for PF. As it seems that even after all this time they still can't get a proper mix of fluff and crunch. In the Giant Slayers handbook they redid Monkey Grip for PF. Yet once again nerfed it to make it somewhat useless. Paizo really does not like martials imo.
Even with 3.5. fans involved in the playtest. It makes no sense to release for a third time the same set of rules. Why would anyone buy the same product twice. Even with backwards compability it's still would not have been enough for myself and my gaming group to reinvest. It's the same reason that Call of Cthulhu 7E is similiar to 5E. Familiar elements with some new rules. The ability to use older sourcebooks with some changes. Not another rehash with better art and organization.
Playing with new players may also be something someone has to do. At one point I wanted to game with a new group. I had become tired of playing with the same group of people over and over and wanted to meet new members of the hobby. As well as new friends. Long story short most of the older gaming group either moved away. No longer game. Or I simply no longer want to deal with anymore. Both in and out of gaming.
Most of the the time I'm satisfied with what is in the Bestiaries. Sometimes it's also good to fight a non-standard monster as well. Not to mention in some cases one has to modify the monster or the npcs to make it a challenge for the players. So far three APs and I have had to modify about 90% of the npcs. Most are poorly designed.
We as gamers sometimes really don't know what we want. We complain that third edition in all it's forms falls apart at higher levels. About the Caster vs martial disparity. About the amount of modifier and flipping through books needed. Wotc released 4E then 5E and some are still not happy. For all the complaints I hear about 3.5/Pathfinder I'm starting to wonder if their is a basis behind that. Not really wanting anything to change. Simply to complain for the sake of it. Not most people in this thread and it's not addressed to those posters. From now on I'm simply going to ignore or assume that a person complains about Pathfinder that unless they say otherwise really is not interested to see anything change.
David Bowles wrote:
Your not helping your case writing this type of stuff about 5E. I may respect yet disagree. Yet as a person who likes 5E. Why would I think your a fan let alone like any part of the system
David Bowles wrote:
According to Mike Mearls they expected gamers to want complexity and instead were told they wanted simplicity. Depending on the system I like one that has forumlas well. Hero System is a good example. It works for that system imo. At high levels if one has both a dm and/or players who don't know their characters combats take forever. I'm playing a Bard I need a cheet sheet because the bonuses don't stack. With Hero most bonuses stack unless told otherwise.
Again nothing is wrong with either approach. I just think that 5E may not be the system for you. Pathfinder maybe more to your liking.
David Bowles wrote:
Well you do have Pathfinder if your worried about 5E being so "gutted". Second your not the market to whom they want to cater to imo. Third a rehashed 3.5 with new art and layout was simply not going to sell well. Why would anyone buy the same system a third time.
I'm almost tempted to ask if this really happened. Then I remember the player who accused the DM of being racist because he wanted to play a Drow and expect no racism towards him.
That's why for myself at least it's harder and harder to talk or discuss anything with anyone in this hobby. If it's a edition or rpg one likes it's flawless and above reproach. One they don't like and everything and anything is wrong with it.
I enjoy Pathfinder. Yet any games I run or play I ask that people know their character and/or make cheat sheets. In games I run it's a requirement for both. No exceptions unless one is blind or has problems writing.
5E is not perfect but man I never seen one poster go out of his way to find fault with a rpg ever. I'm a critic of some Pathfinder elements I admit and I'm not that harsh.
Steve Geddes wrote:
Seconded. There is a point where the designers can try to cater to everyone or focus on what the core fans want. As in some cases no matter what some in the hobby simply will not be satisfied imo.
It just seems more if the usual " why is 5E not a rehash of Pathfinder". I bought 5E because it was not the same as Pathfinder. I even bought some used 2E for the same reason. One of the strengths of 4E that 5E has is how both editions handle monsters, it's just so much easier to run a encounter in both. With Parhfinder their is so much to remember sometimes. Espcislly at higher levels.
At this point I think no matter what anyone says David will find some fault with 5E. Their is simply no pleasing some members of the hobby. I'm not saying everyone hasn't like 5E. At a certain point one has to question why they bought it in the first place. It's not like the development process was a closed affair. It's like when Wotc said that 4E would be different and some in the hobby were Shocked and surprised.
Agreed and seconded.
We want both. It's all good to give me a feat similar to Minkey Grip. Yet if the perquisites and/ or negatives are too high I'm simply not going to take it. If a DM removed the Improved version of say Sunder. Then multiplies the hit points of items by five or more. Again like above not worth taking. A good balance of fluff and crunch is something some dms and Paizo devs simply can't seems to do.
Another one is the DM boyfriend/girlfriend whose significant other is untouchable or blameless. Despite his or her behavior at the table. Like Ulden Death Squad I had to game on a regular basis with a later who spoke in squeaky doll like voice every game. It got so bad that I had to keep a smile or neutral look on my face at all times. When I and other players mentioned it to both the DM and offending player. The DM kicked is out. He tried hiding the reason why trying to feed us a load of BS but we knew.
The socially handicapped gaming group. What I mean by this is take a gaming group. Who have not played with and new members for years. Suddenly recruiting new blood. Then expecting everyone to act and behave like them. It's so damn hard and annoying to game with such a group. As I r never knows what may or may not offend such a group. I get that playing with familiar players makes some groups more comfortable. Yet why recruit new players in the first place.
The DM who dislikes certain magic items yet includes them in the game. Then curses them. When every magic ring that we find other than a Ring of Protection is cursed. Well a pattern begins to emerge. There a reason after awhile that even if it means leaving them behind the group does not take let alone cast Detect Magic on some items.
I see the need for the guide. Yet imo unless a gamer is just getting into the hobby. Almost everyone if not everyone I know who plays roleplaying games knows about D&D. It being the main gateway rpg to the hobby. While it's good to cater to beginners of the hobby. They need to also cater to those familiar with the hobby as well.
That could take another five to ten years. I truly don't have the time let alone the willingness to wait that long for such a book. I might as well use existing material. I know that aps sell well and they want to push material through them. I don't see why I should as a fan be held hostage to the AP format for new game material as well.
At the same time it should also be something they work on without being asked imo. We had a book that while usable was lacking when it came to gods. So they gave us the Inner sea Gods book. The current Paizo book while again serviceable is also lacking. If we can get a Strategy guide which I don't remember seeing a huge demand for or many fans asking. Why not a book on the planes.
I expect the crunch to match the fluff. With Craft Ooze I was not expecting a ooze companion with no restrictions. Neither was I expecting a ooze that was both unintelligent and non-loyal. What the point of taking such a feat when in the end my own creation could attack my character and my companions.
For myself Fluff and Crunch have to be equal. Or at the very least both have to be useful. Craft Ooze is a good example imo. It has some great fluff. Yet the crunch really does not make it worth taking imo. It requires some decent prerequistes to take. It cost money time and a proper place to make a ooze. Only to have the ooze not only be dumb as a rock and also not loyal to the creator. Unless one is part of a group that retreats alot it's useless in combat. As it can't tell friend from foe and it can't be made to tell who is either. As they have no loyalty. It might be worth keeping the ooze as a guard or something similar. Might as well just get a Otyugh who is smarter and loyal. To that'd the problem with much of the material.
Beautifully written descriptions. Yet the rules just don't match up. Let alone make it worth taking. I'm not a optimizer. I just want to take abilites that are worth taking. Too often I find both the older and new material lacking. Or sometimes too situational.
So far I'm glad that so far i'm hearing more positive then negative about 5E. I get that David expected a rehash of Pathfidner with better art and organization. Except that makes no sense from a edition point of view. Or even a financial one imo. Two editions that are the same and people think that a third that is going to be the same is going to sell well. Good luck. I get gamers like familiarity. Except why invest in something that is the same a third time. Then again to be fair it's the same complaint some hardcore fans have with 7E Call of Cthulhu.
Usual Suspect wrote:
I freely admit that the drow prejudice is a bad one; but it is an in game fact and part of the balance of the overpowered drow. To solve the problem in games I run, there are no drow. There are evil elves, but they look just like any other elf. There is no mark of Cain crap like the drow curse of dark skin. Elves might be light skinned or dark skinned, but that is not what marks them as evil. The evil dark elven society is just a society of evil elves that are no more powerful than other elves. They look just like any other elf, send spies into the outside world, infiltrate good elven society, and are harder to deal with because you can't tell who's a bad guy by the color of their skin.
If I ever run a homebrew setting I may do the same. It did annoy in Faerun that their just had to be a evil faction of surface elves. And eco-terrorists to boot. I wish devs would understand that not every nook, cranny or underside of a rock needs to hide a evil enemy. I think they either borrowed the Drow from another source. or gave them the mark of Cain because they wanted to keep the elves at least n pre-third edition as Tolkien as possible.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Which was told to the player who ran the Drow. It would not have been so bad if he had not accused the dm of racism. The dm is about as non-racist as one can get. It's not like he would have not a chance to get at least as well known as Drizzt. The player expected instant recognition just by saying he was not evil and like Drizzt.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet. The player who wants to play a existing race without the prejudice other members of the race receive. A player in one of my friends games wanted to play a Drow. The dm allowed it. With the warning that he would have to make a name for himself. Not ride on the coattails of Drizzt. The game was set in Faerun. The player at the time seemed to understand. In play not so much. He expected that every npc would accpet him because he would say that he is not a evil Drow. His favorite phrase "I'm like Drizzt". Even with Drizzt fame most people policy is to shoot questions first ask question later when it comes to them. Even then he just never understood or pretended not understand why he scare the average person.
Not the dm was not being a bad one. He was more than willing to allow the player to become respected and even possibly liked. Not automatically at first level. Both the dm and the player had a big following out. As the player accused the dm of being racist. The player was African American. The dm was anything but. THe Dm
Another pet peeve. Is members of the community are shocked and surprised when either here or another forum. Obscure rpg # 123123 is not being talked about. It maybe the best thing since sliced bread in the rpg world. If the company that publishes has no advertising I'm not going to know about it. Nor is it a bad thing that I don't
Their is a difference. Pathfinder justs throws a possible broken or very powerful ability into the game without warning to dms. The Hero System goes out of it's way to warn gms of ability that can be game changing or break a game. A Gunslinger because of it targeting Touch AC and with monsters having low touch acs I had to find out during paying the game that I would probably ban the class. With Hero System they warn that a variable power pool can be game breaking without finding out through playing the game at character creation.