|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
I can see players using a faux accent when playing Dwarves. In the first Baldurs Gate you get a quest from a Dwarven npc with such a accent. Not sure if the the later games did the same thing.
Another thing players who don't like guns, ninjas or anything not your vanilla fantasy. I get that some like fantasy to just the usual mix of stuff. Yet if I tell you upfront it's going to be a non-standard fantasy game. I don't want to hear "Guns! They don't belong in fantasy" or something similar.
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
When you state your campaign takes place a few hundred years after the Numerian crashed ship triggered a remote detonation of over half the reactors scattered around Golarion (home-brewed to be placed there), and it's a "Guns-Everywhere, High-Tech uncommon" setting... Shows up with an elven archer and complains about the mass proliferation of tech items, roving robots, and large swaths of land blighted by radiation... Oh, and the mutated ogres (Super Mutants).
I always find these gamers both funny and strange. It's as if they either ignore you when tell them the background. Or don;t read the notes sent by email about the campaign world. If you hate aspects of a certain campaign world why even join the game or make a character.
He is out of control I agree. If the police arrest you twice for carrying a weapon and the excuse to keep carrying its "but I like manga". Then IMO he is a little too obsessed by his hobby. Especially if other of the same hobby consider him too extreme.
For me it's the I'm a super strong and tough character cursed with a low intelligence and charisma. But really I have a high intelligence and charisma despite my looks. While refusing to roleplay low attributes. Or simply getting by through adding skill points into Diplomacy. Or not be penalized by them. Once or twice I'm fine with that concept after awhile it just feels like taking low attributes and not expecting to be penalized by havvng them. I implemented a house rule where if the person wants to bypass the negatives of a low cha or int they can. At the cost of a lower st and con. So no 20 str and/or con at my table. At most 16 in each. The time spent learning to be more socialble and learning to talk to people better comes at a cost of being stronger and tougher.
The gamer who swears he knows the system from front to back end of the core and knows almost nothing about the game.
The gamer who refuses to put in a few dollars for snacks yet takes the most at the table. Granted every game has one I'm not impressed by them.
I have seen a lot of vitriol towards 5th edition on these boards, mainly because it was made by WotC, and even more because they don't have pdfs or any form of digital "printing" (yet).
Even if they had PDFs or digital printing their would still be vitriol thrown there way. Gamers use any and every excuse to edition wars
The irony here is that the same stuff 3.5 and Pathfinder fans complain about with the rules is that for the most part 4E fixed. Maybe not in the way they wanted but it did. Now we still see the same people argue about the same flaws real or not with the rules over and over again.
In my neck of the woods their still is a decent amount of fans that play 3.5 and will not switch to any other edition. To the point where thw owner of the LGS that I buy books from just does not want to deal with them anymore. After a point inly so many times one can tell a person that 3.5. no matter how one wants it to be will not be supported. They refuse to buy the PF core. Or use the online SRD or even a app.
I have seen a few unhappy fans about 4E. None very bitter. I guess I must hang out with more socially well adjusted mature fans of the hobby. The same way where I meet a handful of fans who were unhappy about 3.5 being cancelled. It has nothing do with Wotc 4E advertising campaign. Or what they did to FR. Or for having to pay for new material. Again maybe because the gamers I hang out are again well adjusted social individuals who have better things to do then be bitter about rpgs or the companies that make them.
Shakes Hands with Tels
I feel your pain yet don't let it get to you. Every rpg company has it's fans who defend the company. The best thing to do is respectfully disagree and move on. That being said don't let anyone here stop you from posting anything negative towards Paizo. It's a forum to discuss both positive and negative stuff about Paizo. It's also not a echo chamber either. I was unhappy with the editing mistakes in the ACG. Continue to remain unhappy with the devs making the same mistakes over and over. Made worse by the fact that even after all this time they can't design new material properly sometimes. Either it's really good like Sacred Geometry. Or not do good like Slashing Grace. Or the fluff description if say a feat is amazing yet the crunch the opposite. I'm looking at you Craft Ooze.
Pricing and value economics don't care about your subjective view of the item in question. There's actually quantifiable work and research put into coming up with a price point. Paizo's own CRB costs $50 and don't mince page numbers. You get either game in print for the same price. That's not to say Wizards modeled there price after Paizo at all. $50 to buy *a* game is pretty standard. It is competitively priced on Amazon perhaps more influenced my Pathfinder which goes for the same price. Your arguments, sunshadow, is entirely trying to tear into Wizards while conveniently ignoring both a) gaming industry (not even print/publishing) standards and b) the practices of the company whose forum on which you're posting. If Wizards is doing it wrong, then so is Paizo and so is most of the games industry.
Agreed and seconded.
I know of two people who don't buy on the internet. Both self professed luddites. Otherwise about I would say 90% of the gamers I know would buy online. Some don't to support the lgs. I know next year looking for a new job I may go online myself. Reserving the lgs for used or books I can't wait to be mailed.
As well if a gamer is not sure about wanting to buy the 5E PHB their is a starter set and a free PDF they can download. No way no how is any rpg company going to price a PHB at the 10-15$ range. The only one I know is Palladium books at 20$ or so. Even then at the cost of the book looking and reading like it was a product made in the 1980s. I think Your right Buri it just any excuse for Sun to tear into Wizards.
As for 5E not being in pdf yes it's a little annoying but you know what the rpg industry and gamers like msyelf did just fine without pdfs before they became the industry standard. It's not a deal breaker to some of us.
I don't think it's expensive at all. It's rare do I say say impossible to find a rpg harcover that cost less than 40$ nowadays. Were not even talking full color glossy pages high production either. I don't like it yet were no longer going to get tommorow rpgs now at yesterdays prices. Amazon pricing is as near as were going to get. Remember the Battletech Readouts that used to be between 15-20$ now sell for 30$ before tax. Everything is more expensive.
Print a book. Having it bound. Then moving it from the where it was printed to the store. It cost money to do so. Unlike the rpg books don't magically appeaer out of thin year. If I could I would force every gamer to take a class on basic economics as they are not really educated in that subject. Everything is more expensive.
I do have to say that if anyone in this thread thinks that Amazon is not a big factor in people buying habits guess again. I work in a bookstore where we don't match the online price. Our traffic in the stores fell by at least half in the last then years or so. As people switched to amazon or our own site. So I have very little sympathy for anyone who says the core is expensive when Amazon has it for cheaper. The PF core before discount is 50$ on Amazon so its pretty pricey too. http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook/dp/16012515 05/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409928713&sr=8-1&keywords=pathfinder +core
The 5E core before discount is 50$ as well http://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Dungeons-Dragons-Wizards/dp/07869656 06/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
Rocket Age with decent production values and black and white art is 40$ http://www.amazon.com/Rocket-Age-Ken-Spencer/dp/0857441582/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UT F8&qid=1409928882&sr=8-1&keywords=cubicle+7+rocket
Your not going to get high production values at 40$ . Not anymore. Maybe 10-15 years ago. That ship has sailed. No company run by anyone with a ounce of business sense is going to sell something at a lesser price because some fans can't afford it.
Rushley son of Halum wrote:
Agreed and seconded. Not to say that they don't do some extra work at Gencon. Neither were they building a school from scratch for orphans in Africa. I hope that this time around it's in PDF format for easy download. I really don't want to work my way through all the errata needed for the ACG section by section.
I will concede it may not be unwillingness. Yet while I will still buy product I expect the poor editing and mistakes to continue.
While I will still buy more Paizo books I'm not expecting the editing to get better. Here's why.
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
For the most part I like Pathfinder. To the point where I can no longer play in a game of 3.5. AS I lkike what they did with some of the classes. I don't have any anger towards the devs. Just a lot of frustration as to me at least in some cases they just don't listen. What I mean by that is that they can't seem to find the right middle ground when designing something new. At this point with all their knowledge and experience they should be doing it in their sleep. Either a feat is too good like Sacred Geometry. Or not that good like Slashing Grace. It's one thing if they did their own thing without feedback. Instead they do get feedback and it gets ignored. Usually for the worse instead of better. Which leads to them making the same mistakes in designing new material.
I'm sure someone will point out that they don't have to listen to feedback. Which is true they don't. Then again why bother with feedback at all if they are going to do their own thing anyway. The D&D community for better or worse is a very vocal community. Paizo was imo opening a can of worms when they started asking for player feedback. When gamers give feedback they eventually wan the developers to use it. Ignoring it as I said above gives way to frustration and a lack of faith in the developers. For me what impressed me the least with the ACG was when a poster asked for better quality control and were told "well it's simply not possible". At this point its a unwilligness to do do better. When your release for Gencon is poorly edited with mistakes ad a wrong cover uyou strive to do better. Not say that your unable to imo.
I still enjoy the game and will run and keep playing it. I don't think the rpg or the devs are perfect. If I see something I don't like I will comment on it. Whether I like the rpg or not.
As Paizo can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.
First gamers complained they were too liberal in the changes and what they did with 4E. I really don't blame Wotc for being conservative. Given how rpgs are not as popular as before and comptetion from other forms of entertainment. Better to be safe imo. As for releasing stuff and hope it sells Paizo is doing the same thing imo. When PF was first released they did not release as many books. Once it took off we have a bunch of stuff that comes out every month.
Seconded. Players want to make characters asap. If it means less choices than so be it. I don't agree with that type of philosophy yet understand it.
I'm curious Sunshadow do you have anything good to say about 5E or Wotc? It's like listening to a broken record. We get it you don't like 5E or Wotc. I can respect that even is I don't agree with it. Could not keep repeating yourself by downplaying everything Wotc has achieved. Or the merits of 5E. It's not even a month since the 5E release and your nothing but doom and gloom.
Agreed and seconded. So far I'm liking what I see. Not sure if I will ever run let alone play it. For the first time in a long time I want to play a Paladin. I do think that 5E may give PF a run for it's money.
What stopping them from buying cheaper older copies of the current edition then using the SRD or the free PDF as you mention to take what they need of the new rules. Were talking about a 50-60$ purchase. Not many gamers want to spend that money again just for a few new houserules tossed into the core. Gamers are also cheap as well. You want to bet the first thing that will be said as a complaint that it's more of the same.
They should and knowing Paizo they will. Were not guaranteed that they will.
It still has to be worth the 5o-60$ of purchasing the same material again. I like organized well written core books. I'm not going to buy the same book again because of it. Not unless 30%+ of the material is new. With the free SRD and Apps the core is not the only geteway to the game. I have a APP that for five or is it six dollars I have the entire catalog of hardcovers. With the exception of the ACG. Let's not forget 5E as well. Unlike 4E it seems to have been better received by the fans at least so far.
@ Devils Advocate. You used WW to point out that how edtions are not needed. They are doing a new one. So using them as a comparison is not a good one. Call what you want it is a new edition. With Exalted, Scion and Trinity Contimuum all being rereleased. With a new core and the core WW lines all getting new core books imo it is a new edition. Why rerelease all the core books if it was not at least different enough to do so. Not that it's a bad thing I enjoy WOD. I call it what it is.
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Too bad White Wolf is still going ahead with a new edition and rereleasing the core with the GMC stuff inside and a whole new set of core books. http://theonyxpath.com/the-world-of-darkness-second-edition/ Notice that nowhere do they mention that the new edition is backwards compitble.
I get your point. Except their is a difference between a reprint of the core and working on another edition. With a new edition some in the hobby expect something new. If it's a rehash people will not buy imo. Not everyone has 100$ to invest in a core and a Besitiary with no changes. Who unless they are truly a huge fan of the system and company. Half my gaming table has yet to buy the core. Why bother when the free SRD is up. The Apps are cheaper.
If the design goal is to please everyone in the design process it's doomed to failure. The devs will never get 100% approval on anything. All that matters is if a majority are happy with it. If that means no changes to the exisiting rpg. Than so be it. I will be dissappointed yet still keep playing and buying product. If the no change side wins then my advice to the devs is not even waste time on the next edition. Gamers don't like buying the same rpg twice with no changes. With apps and the SRD it's going to probably be the first time imo that 0the PFcore is not going to sell as well imo
It's interesting how those who do not want any change or little expect Paizo to work on then sell such a edition. Why would I or anyone else buy it. If there is nothing new. Why even waste time or effort on playtesting what is essentially a rehash. Good luck trying to sell the same game twice by the way. I don't see it as being as successful as this one. First gamers are cheap. Second the community in general is in no mood for another 3.5 rehahsh. How do you plan to generate interest in a product with no changes. I'm sure to be ignored yet I'm curious.
While I would not mind to see Vancain caasting go away it should still remain while offering a new system for casting spells side by side. No new magic system means zero interest for me and others. I have the current edition if I want to play with just vancian casting.
Martials should get nice things. Both Wizards and Martails should be able to do amazing things in game. If the new edition or rehashed editions keeps martials from getting nice things good luck trying to sell it is all I'm going to say. As again I can stick to this edition.
Backwards compitabiliy would be nice yet not a must. Again no reason to buy a rehashed edition if that is a design goal because the current allows me to do the same already.
I saw what I saw and all we can do is disagree. As I don't want to thread jack any further.
While it would be good for a new edition to be backwards computable it does not have to be IMO. As the current one is already.
There fans who refuse to come to the forums because of the core playtest. Some in the hobby consider the core playtest a sham because a very vocal subset of fans chased them away. I'm not one of them because I own a lot of material.
Why is my asking for a fair and unbiased playtest bother you so much. Is it because of a fear that they might change something. That's the risk of a playtest.
And here we go with people misunderstundaing what I said.
I want a playtest where everyone is heard. Not just myself. Where no set of vocal posters drown out everyone else. I came late to the core playtest and stayed away because a very vocal group kept chasing away anyone who wanted significant changes. I don't want to see the same thing happen again. If it's a serious playtest then everyone pro change and not should be given a fair chance to be heard. Hopefully this clears up everything.
There politely disagreeing and then there shouting people down so they don't get heard while telling them to go elsewhere. Which happened during the playtest of the core. Which I don't want to see happen again. In a playtest everyone should be heard. Not a very select few very vocal posters. I'm surprised that you would think it was a bad thing.
Letting other people on other forums besides this one know about the poll.
Absolutely Hell Yes.
I have no interest in spending 100$+ on a rehashed edition with new art and little or no significant changes. Why buy the same thing a second time. Those who don't want any change forgot well how will Paizo market a product with little changes. Even Chaosium Call of Cthulhu 7E is different enough this time around from what I hear. That being said I'm in the minority so realize it will not happen.
If they do a playtest
If your going to ask for feedsback use some of it. Don't ask for any if in the end your not going to use it.
Your not going to please everyone so don't approach a new playtest with that in mind as imo Paizo is dooming itself to failure.
Keep a very tight rein on those who are very vocal who attempt to sabotage the playtest. Permabanning them if need. We don't need another core playtest debacle imo.
I can see a special race once or twice in a world where you have the core races. To be treated the same by the locals it depends on the race. I can see a furry while raising a eyebrow not get asked too many questions. After all people in town own cats or live in a area with wild cats. A nagaji or Kobold would raise a few eyebrows and would have to prove themselves to the locals. People in my worlds act like real people not locals from a fantasy novel.
I guess we will have to disagree then. They do listen yet imo they do when it suits them to do so. And that's okay because in the end they spent the money on making the rpg from the ground up.
It's hard to feel like they listen when Sacred Geomtery is given the green light. Yet slashing Grace is really not worth it imo. Same thing with Craft Ooze. I wanted a feat that allowed me to create and use oozes in combat. Instead it's a very situational trap feat. I guess the frustration from myself is that their seems to be no proper middle ground on the design process. Either something is very good or very bad. Never a mix of the two imo. At this point with the experience in designing new material they should be finding the proper middle ground in their sleep.
I guess you were not here for when they playtested the core. Anyone who tied to post any major changes were chased away by a very vocal minority who wanted no changes. It happened.
Here the thing about feedback if the fans ask and ask for a proper dex to damage feat and they don't deliver why would it look like they listen to feedback. They were told over and over again by some fans not to allow Gunslingers to target touch AC yet in the end they still did. I'm not saying they have to listen to me or others feedback. Just don't ask for feedback if in the end the devs are going to do their own thing.
Then again to me anyway it's just a good PR exercise. Make the fans think their feedback means something then do the opposite. It makes the fans feel good yet the devs do what they want. To be honest they don't have to listen to feedback. They can take it into account when developing new material. Yet at the end of the day they can and will do their own thing. I may not like it. I can respect it.
At this point we are seeing much more levels of frustration from the fanbase. When they still can't find a proper middle ground on developing new things well it can be frustrating. I have never seen the boards being so very vocal imo. Asking for patience when the end result is the same is also frustrating. It's been how many years they just keep repeating the same mistakes imo.
As for the Rogue the Investigator is so much better in all ways. Except for their version of Sneak attack which still requires a melee weapon. I get your point about the Rogue yet im owe will see a lot more Investigator builds than Rogues in the future.
Don't get me wrong there are good things. Though with the Investigator we might as well just have a tombstone with the heading Rogue RIP 2014 IMO. No reason to take a Rogue anymore. Slayer is good as well. I just think that in the end feedback is useless IMO. As for better or worse the devs will do their own thing.
You think it would be a bonus to some that the person running the game is enthusiastic about it. If happened to a friend of mine as well. He took booted the player out of the game.
Annoying thing by players I have come across.
One who play casters yet by level 5 still don't know any spells by heart. Or uses a cheat sheet. I can understand not memorizing certain spells . How hard is it to remember what Bless dies.
The restrictive DM turned player who wants access to anything and everything in the books. Then when one refuses something complains about it.
Players who channel their inner male chauvinist mysognustic self through their characters at the table. Nothing runic a fans more than seeing a player make lewd, rude comments towards female npcs or players. Had two in my games over theocrats booted them out as soon as that BS began.
Players who ignore any advice at the table. Then when bad things happen get angry and lash out at players. Had his happen in a game two weeks ago. A player lost 11 hp to a trap. Instead of saying " I need to he healed" went on and his character died. Began to pull a fit at the table. Which the DM stopped finally and very grudgingly admitted he screwed up.
Players who make characters unsuitable to the campaign at hand then get mad at both the players and DM when he or she can't do anything. If it's a hack and slash style of game told upfront about it why make a character built only for social encounters who can't hit broadside of barn.
Is told writing game notes is a must to join g the group. Then complains, whines, moans and tries to weasel his way out if doing them.
In the end if the majority if fans want a new edition. With the current version becoming unprofitable they should do a new edition. They are not going to please everyone. Not should they lies money just because some want to stick with a older edition , I only ask that this time around they have a proper play test. The last one was hijacked by a very very vocal minority that wanted no change. Who did they damn best to chase away anyone who disagreed with them.
If not and the majority want more if the same than they stick with the current rules. In the end in not licked into any one rpg.
Editing and mistakes aside as some have said the book is not a total loss. He'll it even close to one. It does bother me that whenever we ask for better quality control the response seems to be " well that simply not possible. ". Which us even more frustrating. It just seems they are unwilling to improve on quality control IMO. I could be wrong yet when we mentioned the same issues with quality control with UMD we were given the same response. It could have been rushed for a Gencon release with the release if 5E. If that is the case it shows.
I will say this with the Investigator Paizo really IMO does not like Rogues IMO. Or very much.
The same thing happened to Pathfinder once they started releasing new material. So it's not just a problem that will happen to 5E.
So I ask the question again if the next edition will not change anything or very little how does one go about selling it. I mean why would myself or others buy the same thing twice. Which keeps getting ignored by the don't change anything group.
I dont mind more rules. Nor more sourcebooks. Its how most if not all rpg companies make their money. I does bother me that because its new people comne across as forcing to use it. No one is bein forced to use anything. My main complaint of the new stuff is lots of interesting fluff but the crunch is severy lacking imo. Or they release badly designed feats or worse classes that are better than what is in th core.
In the product description it mentions a simplified action econom, monster creation, and crafting.
I read that as well. While my interest is high Im nto holding my breath either.