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Alurad Sorizan

magnuskn's page

6,947 posts (6,949 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Casual Viking wrote:


The cost of the summon monster exploit rises. With this nerf, Occultists need to have decent Cha and burn top-level spells to have summons for every fight, and they can't blithely do the summon shuffle.

And apparently I am unable to read and never saw that the cost rises. So, six points for a sixth level summon? Ouch. I probably never would have even considered the Occultist, but, yeah, that makes the Consume Magic errata pretty much a gravestone for that archetype.

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Try reading the ability again before trying to act like a snarky arsehat.

The cost of the ability rises as he SM level does. So a SM 5 will cost 5 points. A SM 3 will cost 3 points. Get it now?

Yeah, sorry. Apparently I read right over those words the gazillion times I looked at the archetype before. I assumed that you were whining needlessly, but I think I would have downrated the archetype massively even before the nerf if I'd read the pertinent paragraphs correctly.


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Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Or occultist arcanists...

Right, because not having Consume Magic more than once per day totally breaks that archetype...


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Triune wrote:

Can we PLEASE stop using the argument that being able to blast all day is this huge balancing factor? NO ONE HAS COMBAT ALL DAY. The system is not built around that assumption. Your combat options only have to last through the combats in a given day. Doing piddly damage is not made up for by the argument that "Hey guys, if we have to have 16 combats today, I'll be marginally more useful by comparison!"

This is especially relevant if we compare it to the other classes which are solely Paizo's design, i.e. everything forward from the APG. About every one of those classes has a focus on limited use abilities, meaning that parties aren't expected to have something else than the 15 minute adventuring day anymore. Hence new classes should be all designed around that paradigm, not how they perform better after everybody else has run out of their limited resources.

That is not a commentary on the effectiveness of the Kineticist, since I haven't really looked at its numbers yet, but rather that the "class X operates better when there are a lot of encounters that day" argument has been killed by Paizo's conscious class design years ago.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Reading it: Very dense, legalistic. Forget seeing forest for the trees the writing has you concentrating on bark and you have to pan out from there to see how the classes work and get a reasonable picture of what it does.

Yes, thank you, that encapsulates perfectly the feeling I got when trying to make sense of the Kineticist. Hell, I haven't even looked at the other classes yet, several days later.


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Could you take the endless tier discussion to another thread, please?


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Well, this looks promising. I'm sure to pick up my suscription again after the EEEEEVIL AP.


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Alright, I think I got the basics of the class, although I'll have to read all the different talents in detail to see what I would want to play (although no danger of that, I am currently GM'ing two groups with many a month to go for both campaigns).

I'll say that putting nine very long and complex descriptions of class abilities (and some shorter ones) before you even get to see what all those wild talents and infusions and thingamajigs can do, made it definitely a chore to read through the class. It's doable, but it definitely is the most complex D20 class I ever read through and I've never had this problem with any other Paizo class before.

I guess that's a sign of its versatility, but, man. I'll be looking at the other classes throughout the next days, I hope they are less complicated. I hope that the Occultist really is the "Harry Dresden" type of class, which I remember a developer saying during the playtest.


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captain yesterday wrote:

In Brandon's defense, Shadows of Gallowspire was his first AP adventure and he was kind of boxed in as far as adversaries go and locations.

That said I bet if he redid it today, using everything he's learned since you would get a phenomenally creepy adventure :-)

Oh, hell yeah. Brandon did supremely good work on Shattered Star 6 and Reign of Winter 5. I'd wish he would write more adventure path modules. But I guess after writing the best single module Paizo has ever published, he wanted to go out on a high note. ;)


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Gorbacz wrote:

I wouldn't discount magnuskn's experiences, mythic rules do kind of bubble up if used by a group of optimizers. A casual group might get a kick out of it, but more crunch-oriented players will quickly exploit the system.

Yes magunskn, that was me agreeing with you. You can stop cleaning your monitor right now.

However, mythic works perfectly as means of powering up monsters to present surprising challenges to non-mythic groups.

If mythic is used sparingly in a homebrewn campaign by the GM, it does exactly what Gorbacz said and is indeed a good tool to spice up encounters.

Mythic as used in Wrath of the Righteous is a disaster and not only for groups which optimize. The system would need significant nerfs to become playable.

Anyway, the good AP's:

Rise of the Runelords (revised) is, IMO, the best AP. It has a very decent mix of roleplaying and combat, an interesting story and keeps the party motivated throughout the entire AP.

Curse of the Crimson Throne is also an excellent AP, keeping the party in a single city throughout 2/3's of the AP. The trip outside the city could have been better and shorter, but it still works quite well.

Jade Regent is an excellent AP. It starts in Avistan and then progresses to Tian Xia. The middle modules are a bit weak, in that the third module is an interminable trip over the north pole (a feeling which seems to be intentional by the writer) and the fourth module has an excellent start, but the second half is a way too long dungeon with underpowered opposition (which can be remedied by replacing it with the Ruby Phoenix Tournament adventure, which many have done), but the last two modules make up for it. I would be very interested to see what Paizo would do with an AP all set in Tian Xia.

While I haven't run Shattered Star yet, I am very much looking forward to it, since the entire AP looks to be excellently done from my reading.

And, as I said before, Carrion Crown is a very competently written AP, brought down only by a too combat heavy last module and also that the main villain is a non-entity until the very last fight (which can be remedied by introducing him much earlier. I personally had him appear in the very first module and constantly mentioned him during the entire AP, although he only revealed himself as the bad guy at the end of module five).

People also say good things about Legacy of Fire, although you'd have to ask others about details.


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I'll be honest, when I got the PDF yesterday evening, my eyes glazed over when trying to make sense of the Kineticist and after that I only skimmed through the book for the artwork and to read the list of spells (which look singularily useless for the non-psychic classes). I guess I'll take a new look later today, maybe have some actual opinions. But the new classes look waaaaay more complicated than what we got before, needlessly so.


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Yes, of course, ignore the advice of people who actually have experienced the problems those untested sub-systems caused in their campaigns, because "whining". Great idea. You ignore traffic rules, too, because other people "whined" that running a red light is a bad idea?

Carrion Crown is a solid AP, with an uninspired ending. The first five modules have a mix of investigation and combat, while the sixth module is combat from start to finish.

Reign of Winter is a travel AP where you visit ever increasingly exotic locations. Its modules therefore are pretty much disconnected from each other and modules three and four were not my cup of tea when I read them. Module six also is not that super interesting. Module five, however, is the single best AP module published by Paizo.

Shattered Star is a very solid dungeon-heavy AP, which tried to show that dungeons can also have things like diplomacy and roleplaying. It's on my list of AP's I want to GM one day.

I can't talk about Giantslayer, since I've only skimmed through the artwork, but apparently it also doesn't have any additional new mechanics.


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Melkiador wrote:
I believe your expectations may be unrealistic. Making a large rules book is a very error prone process. And I really doubt that your playing experience has been affected by many non-ACG errata.

In small ways, it has over the years. Situations like "No, you can't do this anymore, they erratae'd it" have come up multiple times.

And I know that it is better to errata than not, but it still makes me feel like I misinvested money in getting the first printings and now being stuck with them.


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Melkiador wrote:
Wszebor Uriev wrote:

Wow. With all the changes, my hardcopy of ACG is pretty much useless, since I now have to cross-reference the errata.

Honestly, this makes me think twice about purchasing upcoming hardbacks from Paizo until at least a year after they are out.

Not trying to be a jerk. The money is part of it, but its also the fact that I have something occupying my bookshelf that just isn't accurate.

I tend to have to wait to purchase books anyway, just because of a lack of funds, but the ACG was pretty clearly an outlier in Paizo's publishing history. Both Unchained and OA seem to be much higher in quality. So, please don't make grand sweeping gestures based on one badly crafted book.

Actually, being someone who always buys first printings and feeling like an extended playtester after one or more rounds of errata is a problem I also have and have heard mentioned around my two tables, too. It's coming to the point where I seriously think about just purchasing the PDF, printing it out and having it bound into a hardcover, until at least a second printing is available. I am not made out of money and I find it quite frustrating that about every hardcover I own is partially invalidated by now.


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voska66 wrote:
I don't think you'll see PF 2.0 coming any time soon. I think we may see a halt of PF RPG books coming out. Maybe focus on different genres like PF SciFi RPG. There is enough PF RPG content to feed the campaign setting for year. Pathfinder Online will also drive sales. I mean that's how I ended up playing pen/paper RPGs back in the day. Started with BBS MUDs on the Apple IIe.

We had some megathreads a few months back where people went back and forth on the issue. I am actually tired of discussing it, since some people have this weird belief that Paizo would never, ever betray them by bringing out PF 2.0, even if it meant that they'd unemploy themselves by doing so. So, I'll leave it with the small mention I made in the context of what Turin wrote. We'll see in a few years, anyway. GenCon this year would actually be the best time for Paizo to announce that they are working on PF 2.0, since they seem to have used up all the design space by now for new classes with Occult Adventures (even with the Vigilante).


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
And an alignment restriction and a code of conduct which makes a lot of people unhappy to be in the same group as your character. Paladin is balanced out by the roleplaying aspect, which is much more restrictive than with any other class.
That is some sweet old school logic. Unfortunately (for you) and fortunately (for everyone else) Paizo doesn't embrace it. Although I could see it now: An archetype where fighters get cool new toys without having to give up anything. All they have to do is follow some roleplay restrictions. That's what many of the AD&D kits boiled down to. This has been a game design methodology that has for the most part fallen out of favour.

They still haven't phased out the Paladin with an "Unchained Paladin", so I'd say they are not completely abandoning the concept. I guess we'll have to wait for the next edition of Pathfinder to see if they'd do thing differently. Or maybe PF Unchained 2 something something.

And, by the way, trying to reduce this issue to "you vs. everyone else" is laughable. The mere existance of all those Paladin threads is a testament that the class has issues. They are, however, mostly in the roleplaying side of things rather than in the mechanics.

Or, better said, since the roleplaying side of things hugely favors the classes strengths (Paizo's adventure paths tend to favor evil opponents in most cases), the mechanical strengths of the class are magnified.

Anyway, this is getting way to OT for the actual topic at hand.


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Endoralis wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Man, so this is what it's like when Blizzard releases a WoW patch.
They even buffed Mages... just like a blizzard patch.. how odd.

Arcanists got nerfed a bit, so I don't know if that is right.


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christos gurd wrote:
slashing grace boosted then subsequently nerfed. oi

Oh, wow, didn't see that one. Hm, that is going to make a few players unhappy in my group, given how many characters with Slashing Grace and Two-Weapon Fighting are running around there. I'll probably have to house-rule it.


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Spoony (maybe known to some here, he is an internet reviewer of games, movies and other things) has a show named Countermonkey, where he exposits about roleplaying and tries to give out advice and tell some stories.

In his latest episode, just uploaded yesterday, he recounts a tale which should be familiar to all who have played through or GM'ed Second Darkness. I got a big kick out of listening to his story and thought that maybe some people would be interested, too.

Hence, a link to the video: Countermonkey: Baboon!


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Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, Jon.


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Shisumo wrote:
The key word there is "unrelenting." The Morning War may or may not have had fault on both sides, but the undeniable facts are that the geth stopped fighting and the quarians didn't. This is especially true in the actual scene where you have to make the choice, because Shepard and Tali both warn Gerrel that they are about to commit auto-genocide-by-geth if they keep up the attack, but none of the quarian ships break off - even when they start getting blown thoroughly out of the sky.

Lest we forget, the Geth control an entire sector of space. The Quarians (the 28 million that are left of them of the population of several billion) are stuck like cattle in their decaying space ships for several hundred years.

I'm sorry, but I can feel little sympathy for the Geth playing "Oh, we are so innocent!" given the facts that they committed genocide. I am also unhappy about the Quarians deciding to try to wipe out the Geth again, make no mistake. But I am just still hacked off at the hit piece BioWare did on the Quarians to make the Geth look good and the Quarians look bad (so that the decision wasn't automatical to support the Quarians, is my best guess). It was bad, one-sided storytelling.


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I am cautiously pessimistic about this. I don't trust the BioWare people at all anymore to develop a good story and this whole "going to the Andromeda galaxy" thing just seems like a way to avoid dealing with the whole fiasco the ME3 endings were.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

"Mikaze still on?" is the better question, given that he hasn't posted since April. :( I almost have the horrible thought that he got perma-banned for some inane reason (like posting passionately about the stupid Hugo awards controversy), the way nobody has seen or heard from him for months. I really hope that isn't the case and that he is well. He is my favorite person on this messageboard.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Curse of the Crimson Throne, for sure.


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Can somebody wipe the drool of the bag above me from the floor?

On a more serious note, are the Summon Good/Neutral/Evil Monster feats reprinted from Champions of Purity/Balance/Corruption? Seems like they would belong in this book.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:
Paizo loves Cheliax. I like it too, but give some other nation a chance in the spotlight.

Exactly. Shouldn't an underutilized place like Varisia finally get a chance for its day in the sun?


8 people marked this as a favorite.

Welp, going to sit this one out. I hate, despise evil campaigns.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Hell's Vengeance is spring ap. You play bad buys. No, I'm not kidding.

Oh, hey, another opportunity to let my subscription lapse for six months. Woopee.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

My work here is done. <vanishes in a cloud of smoke> ;)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Seriously, those guys should take a chill pill or a dozen of them. The gender of a good action protagonist does not matter.


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Oooh, a sighting of Rasturin the Mad Monk. ;)


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Gee, it's as if the game expects us to play heroes.


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Gorbacz wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Hard to Fool (APG), Hard to Fool (UC, great job keeping those talent names separate, guys ^^), Ki Pool (UC) and probably others?

The APG talent is called Hard to Fool, the UC talent is called Hard Minded. But hey, never let facts get in the way of confirmation bias.
NOt originally at least.
Yeah, I guess someone didn't get a first printing.

Oh no, the rabid fanboy Gorbacz failed to slavishly support his Paizo overlords with an early purchase! Noooooooo!!!!!

Or ... he is rabid enough to have both printings. :D

Guess you should have double checked, then.


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Nicos wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Hard to Fool (APG), Hard to Fool (UC, great job keeping those talent names separate, guys ^^), Ki Pool (UC) and probably others?

The APG talent is called Hard to Fool, the UC talent is called Hard Minded. But hey, never let facts get in the way of confirmation bias.
NOt originally at least.

Yeah, I guess someone didn't get a first printing.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
BTW, do NPC's have their own progression table for the Big Six-less system or do they get the same bonuses players get? If they do get them, that'd be a huge upgrade to NPC opponents in AP's. ^^
You should probably put them one level lower, as their CR is considered one lower. This will indeed still be an upgrade (with a size that varies depending on their gear allocation and how much was in the Big 6 already), but honestly, it's probably more in line with what their challenge likely should be, there just wasn't a way to do it before without overloading your PCs on gear every time they win a fight.

I don't know if there's a method to high-five someone through the internet, but consider yourself high-fived. Because that was exactly one of the main problems with NPC's, that they suffered from a distinct lack of equipment compared to PC's, but you couldn't give it to them without overloading the WBL system.

Thanks, Mark. :) Although I probably won't be able to convince my groups to change to the new system mid-campaign. ;)


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Many people don't have the book yet, since it's only out for suscribers.


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Neo2151 wrote:
So the answer to, "there are too many trap options," isn't removing trap options - it's nerfing the one class that managed to escape that problem?

Pretty much, yes. A lot of us GM's use AP's, because we don't have time to build our own homebrewn campaigns anymore. AP's are built to a very low standard of optimization, hence the writers almost never (and then most likely purely by accident) provide opposition which actually uses the power options which are bandied about on this board. Initiative scores are low, caster DC's are low, RAGEPOUNCE is not used, even the occasional Summoner is not even using that option. Hell, I've GM'ed four AP's to completion and played in a fifth one and I think I've seen Pounce being used in one of them (by a Shadow Demon), as far as provided opposition goes.

Hence I'd vastly prefer the power combinations to remain obscure, because if they were common and easy to find, they'd break the current AP metagame. That was exactly the problem in Wrath of the Righteous... the power combinations were too obvious in Mythic Adventures and the AP was not nearly written well enough mechanically to deal with.

Not even to mention that if both sides were fully optimized all the time, the game would turn into rocket tag.


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A second edition is pretty much inevitable economically. At some point, people will get enough of the constant release of new classes, feats and items into the existing system, not even to mention inconsistencies in the current rules and unwanted synergy effects. Sales will taper off as people turn to other, less convoluted systems. And the Paizo staff will want to keep feeding their families.

A new edition will have some die-hards who will stop buying Paizo products altogether, but if the developers manage to make the system substantially better with their new iteration, enough others will keep playing, return or start playing that it will work out.

Pathfinder Unchained pretty obviously is a way for them to probe what kind of changes the fanbase reacts positively to. The developers can gauge the feedback and use it as a core around which to build a new edition of the game.


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I'm at a loss how to mimic the headache inducing shakycam.


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My biggest fear in regards to Paizo and Pathfinder is stagnation. That the developers will be too afraid to release a new edition because of those people yelling "If you ever release a new edition, I'll never buy a Paizo product again" and thus this edition will be bloated into oblivion.

I hope Pathfinder Unchained is the developers dipping their toe into the water to see which of their alternative system ideas are best received and that they then build a new, better edition out of that feedback.


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Mark Seifter wrote:


Dodge bonuses typically stack, so that won't alleviate your problem. Your best bet is to make a new type of bonus called "Prowess" or something like that, which doesn't work when denied Dex bonus (since it represents using your awesome prowess and skill to block attacks) and then convert all deflection bonuses to that.

Actually, that sounds like an even better idea. I hadn't thought far enough ahead that you could stack those converted deflection bonuses. Thanks, Mark!

The new bonus probably would be called "Awesomeness". ;)


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Thank you to donate and Lanitril for the quick answers. Just halving WBL is something I could have thought of a few years ago, but I had to make it complicated for myself. :p

I'd seriously consider replacing that deflection bonus with a dodge bonus. PC's are awesome, but getting innate deflector shields seems a bit silly.


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Well, if there was an area which would be "whites only", I think nobody would not call it racial segregation. Outside of maybe Strom Thurmond from his grave.


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Looks nice. I just hope that the unchained Monk does not need to be Lawful Something. If the class includes ways to focus yourself mostly on martial arts, then the alignment restriction is unneeded.

And before anybody comes with the usual "you need to be disciplined to be a Monk", you also need to be disciplined to be a Wizard, but they don't get the holdover alignment restriction.

Anyway, looking forward to this book.


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About three hours with some music in the background, three calculators open at the same time and including having to do a little table for spells per school per levels for all the spellbooks. :)

And I always calculate that the party sells everything, hence the actual WBL is still a bit higher, because everybody will keep certain items.


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Alright, I did my usual "comb through the AP chapters to calculate WBL per chapter" thing yesterday, finally, after I got my hardcover back from the GM of the other group (btw, we finished our playthrough there with an epic win over Karzoug. Really good teamplay by everybody. Great campaign.).

Hence, I can give some definite data as to the wealth progression of the campaign. But first, some caveats:

- I took the approach of counting all the loot available in the campaign, outside of corner cases like Conna the Wise (who is well equipped but not likely to be attacked, except by overzealous player characters). All magic items were counted at half price, including consumables carried by enemies. Art objects and gems are sold at 100% market value. Artifacts were not factored into the WBL calculation, since there is no pricing for them. Count them as a "bonus" for the party.

- Spellbooks were calculated at the price of half their writing costs, i.e. a level one spell is worth 5 GP, a level two spell 20 GP and so on.

- A significant factor later on in the campaign are the spellbooks carried by the opposition in Runeforge and Xin-Shalast. I took the approach that the spellbooks contain every spell in the core rulebook available at the level the enemy in question is capable of casting (i.e. missing the opposition school for all the Thassilonian specialists). That is to reflect the ancient nature of those enemies and was partly suggested by the writers themselves in the AP.

- Module three and four have a lot of difficult to sell loot (seriously, to whom do you go to sell your tenth large magical ogre hook?), but I still was working under the assumption that the party can sell the loot. Why exactly again do weapons and armor not resize, like the rest of magical gear does?

- I did not include the base cost of weapons into my calculations, for the reason that it would have involved searching for that base cost. I already spend close to three hours doing this (calculating spellbooks takes a ton of time, although I did end up making a nice useful list of core books spells per level per school to make it easier on myself), so I didn't feel the need to add to this for such an insignificant wealth factor.

- And small calculation errors may have happened, but generally I am quite sure that I am in the right ballpark.

With that being said, here are the WBL totals for RotRL, per chapter:

Burnt Offerings

Total Treasure: 38.142 GP
-> 38.142 , i.e. 9.535,5 GP/character -> 3.535,5 over WBL per character
1-4 WBL Party of four: 24.000 GP (6.000/character)

Spellbook Lyrie: 225 GP

The Skinsaw Murders

Total Treasure: 97.520 GP
-> 97.520 , i.e. 24.380 GP/character -> 6.880 over WBL per character
4-7 WBL Party of four: 70.000 GP (17.500/character)

Spellbook Caizarlu: 430 GP
Ironbriar’s Spellbook: 260 GP

The Hook Mountain Massacre

Total Treasure: 147.380 GP
-> 147.380 , i.e. 36.845 GP/character -> 1.655 under WBL per character
7-10 WBL Party of four: 154.000 GP (38.500/character)

Spellbook Mammy Graul: 925 GP
Spellbook Barl Breakbones: 1665 GP
Ogre Fighter: 1725 GP in equipment

Fortress of the Stone Giants

Total Treasure: 363.668 GP
-> 363.668 , i.e. 90.917 GP/character -> 12.917 over WBL per character
10-13 WBL Party of four: 312.000 GP (78.000/character)

Scrolls worth: Scrying CL 17 1.062,5 GP ; Heroes’ Feast CL 17 1.275 GP ; Regenerate/Orders’ Wrath CL 17 1.487,5 GP ; Greater Restoration CL 17 3.987,5 GP ; Resurrection CL 17 6.487,5 GP ; True Ressurection 14.412,5 GP

Spellbook Barl Breakbones: 20.895 GP

Sins of the Saviours

Total Treasure: 930.615 GP
-> 930.615 , i.e. 232.653 GP/character -> 132.653 over WBL per Character
13-15 WBL Party of four: 400.000 GP (100.000/Character)

Azaven’s Spellbook: 32.990 GP
Ordikon’s Spellbook: 23.745 GP
Vraxeris’ Simulacrum’s Spellbooks: 807 GP
Vraxeris’ Spellbooks: 33.922 GP (includes lvl 9 spells, but Thassilonian illusionists get really screwed in their opposition schools)
Jordimandus’ Spellbooks: 32.360 GP
Warriors of Wrath Spellbooks: 247 GP (total w/equip 3947 GP)
Highlady Atroxis’ Spellbooks: 24.370

Spires of Xin-Shalast

Total Treasure: 1.698.924 GP
-> 1.698.924 , i.e. 424.731 GP/character -> 134.731 over WBL per character
15-18 WBL Party of four: 1.160.000 GP (290.000/character)

Khalib’s Spellbook: 31.745 GP
Kharzoug’s Spellbook: 40.390 GP

So, that's it. Except for chapter three and four, the AP performs more or less as expected. What your players miss out on in chapter three (and maybe four) is more than made up in chapter five.

Hope that was helpful to anybody. :)

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