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Alurad Sorizan

magnuskn's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 6,508 posts (6,510 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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I think I am not going to pursue this particular discussion, because it will end in tears, since our definitions of chauvinism are extremely different.


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Constantine wrote:
I think the early Laurell K Hamilton stuff (before she started writing romance novels/furry porn)was better than Dresden. Dresden has now had a longer run for me, since I stopped reading the Hamilton stuff, and I love the characters. I don't think his books are constantly getting better though. He's had a couple of books that I didn't enjoy all that much (White Knight springs to mind). I had kind of said goodbye to Dresden until I heard some spoilers from Changes, and HAD to read that book, and now I'm back aboard the Dresden line...

I read Hamilton, too, until she began to write Pw/oP. I still like Butchers work way better. The mythology is more interesting and it has way less melodramatic vampires. Also, the protagonist is a guy, which seems to be a rarity among Urban Fantasy novels. I also enjoy the first person perspective a lot.

BTW, if anybody is going to go off on Butcher for having femme fatales in his book, how about the bishonen guys in most urban fantasy novels who fall all over themselves for the female protagonist and who are described in muscle-rippling detail by said female protagonists, too?


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Lord Snow wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Sure, Butcher's writing is not the greatest example that humanity has to offer

I actually disagree, at least as far as urban fantasy authors go, he is the best. And he manages to make his next book (almost) always to be better than his last one, a feat I have yet to see any other author manage, even the vaunted George R.R. Martin. And he writes very fast and comes across as a very congenial and funny person in his seminars and interviews. Also, he is a Pathfinder fan.


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While I definitely am disgruntled with some of the newer products (i.e. Mythic Adventures and a few of the things coming out of the ACG) and have heavily complained about them, Paizo has my business for the foreseeable time. I'm way more unhappy still at WotC for obliterating the Forgotten Realms to fit into their vision of 4E.

Also, Pathfinder is in many respects a great game and the people at Paizo haven't yet used up their share of customer loyalty.


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Session of October 07th 2014:

Sorry for the delay, I am coming off another double night-shift and just got out of bed here in Germany, where it is 05:00 p.m. already. Ooof.

Anyway, five players in attendance. No combat this session, the party argued for an hour if they were going to take Orengofta up on his offer to transport them into the prison and finally decided to do so. After 27 days of travel in prison carts, they arrived, then escaped their cells. They got the equipment back from a Secret Chest they had set up and proceeded to meet the immolation devil, with whom they made a deal to free him and he would give them information on the prison complex. After that they liberated Waxberry, found the spirit of that Saranrae priestess and took the corpse of the astral deva with them (to resurrect them later, since nobody wants more useless NPC's in the coming fights).

They finally met Alderpash and convinced him to try for redemption in return for setting him free. Next session will be a combat against all the prison wardens at once. After that the Herald and after that, Baphomet, although I'll doubt that they'll get to the last one on one session.


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Putting me in the same category of number-crunching as those others is very flattering, but untrue. I do some basic math and come to results which any other person who would do it would come to. Rynjin, RD and the others are way, way more into optimizing than I'd ever be, which helps them find those hidden flaws. I just see the obvious stuff and say aloud "Why don't the developers see this, too? Why don't they care?!?"

I like to think that my people skills are somewhat better than with those others, though. I manage a good dialogue with James from time to time, after all. :p


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Session of September 30th 2014:

Sorry for the delay, I had a night shift and thus just got out of bed an hour ago. Basically the night shift began one hour after we finished our session yesterday.

Six players in attendance, although one player left before the other arrived. I am beginning to have serious doubts about that first player contributing anything to the group, given that by now he has stated that he intends now to continue to leave 1 1/2 hours into the session forever and he is the person who contributes the least to roleplaying, too. Since he is a friend, it is not really doable to just tell him to stop coming, but his being here not only helps make a campaign harder to balance (six players), it also doesn't contribute anything to the group. Really a bad position to be in. :-/

Anyway, the group used the tokens given by Iomedae to teleport to the Ivory Labyrinth and met Odeenka and four Baphomet Golems (Scorpions Upgrades). While the golems inflicted pretty heavy damage, Odeenka just disintegrated by a crit from the Samurai, for 618 damage (double Critical Master path talent). And, yes, that damage was what we calculated together. The Sorcerer cast Reverse Gravity on the three restant Golems and the Ranger just destroyed one of them in one round. I called the encounter after that, given how they could barely catch the party before being destroyed.

The party afterwards teleported to Blackburgh and, after having a few off-screen encounters with normal demons ("You win, let's continue with the plot") were invited to meet Verbezzovor by one of his swarm. He pointed them towards Orengofta, who in turn gave them the information about where to find the Father of Worms. The party set out to the Lightless Maze and spent 18 days there navigating the tunnels (with further "You win" random encounters). After finally getting to the cave containing the Father of Worms (again, upgraded), they were confronted by him. He had better senses to detect them than they did, so he opened with a readied Mythic Finger of Death, which sadly was resisted by the scouting Ranger. The Ranger retaliated with a salvo which took off about 30% of his HP and since he rolled high on initiative, he got off a Wail of the Banshee and after that burrowed underground, to heal up somewhat with Channel Energy. After noting that he would not heal up to full HP even with five times 9d6, I waited until a good moment and surfaced near the Barbarian and Samurai. The round went: Mass Hold Monster, Quickened Cone of Cold, Amazing Initiative: Breath Weapon, Amazing Initiative: Greater Vital Strike on the Samurai, Fast Swallow, Samurai digested. Burp.

The Father of Worms was pretty comprehensively destroyed after that, which was especially funny since the Cleric cast Destruction on him as the last attack... meaning that he destroyed the entire body of the Father of Worms completely, meaning no blood. Which is why they had come here in the first place. Ooops.

The Samurai was True Ressurected from a scroll they found last module and I ruled that his gear had survived being swallowed. The party returned to Orengofta, who, after facepalming at the Cleric, suggested that he could take them prisoner and deliver them per hand to the Ineluctable Prison. I had to point out the spell Secret Chest before they accepted that, but next session will begin with them spending 6d6 days traveling in cages to the prison in their underwear. ^^


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Session of September 23rd 2014:

Six players in attendance.

The session pretty much was what I expected it to be last week. The aftermath of the finale of last week, leveling up, selling loot and getting new equipment. The encounter with Iomedae also fit into it and it went pretty well. Nobody was out of line, so I did not have to even think about how to handle disrespectful PC's. OTOH, it was a bit less than I hoped for with the Cleric and Ranger, who are both children of Iomedae, but if the players don't bite, then I can't do much about it.

Anyway, the party is well equipped and will get into the Ivory Labyrinth next week. That's a bit to prepare, to give them one interesting encounter and see if they go exploring a bit or head directly for Blackburgh.

And it seems that the next campaign has aquired an Investigator, which now makes the party Investigator, Urban Ranger, Slayer, Inquisitor and Bard. Quite the skillful party. ^^ I'll have to work to get player six (the current Samurai) to decide soon and work on a decent character background, or he'll just slop one character onto the stage on the day we start the campaign. Ah, well, the perils of being DM, I guess. ^^


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Brandon Hodge
Brandon Hodge
Brandon Hodge
Brandon Hodge

I may be somewhat of a fan.


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My review of the AP, after GM'ing it to completion. You might find helpful ideas there.


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Technotrooper wrote:
I love Paizo, but have to admit I am frustrated with spending $150+ on MA and WotR and then hearing about all of the problems and issues on the forums here. I am a somewhat new PF DM and the thought of trying to "fix" things on my own is daunting. Most companies that put out a "flawed" (I know some would argue this is an overstatement) product usually try to "make things right." It sounds like Paizo does have enough "irons in the fire" to prevent that from happening in this particular case...which is too bad.

Yeah, that persistent lack of accountability is troubling me, too. It would be unacceptable in most other industries, but something about the roleplaying market seems to want make many fans apply a lower standard than they would anywhere else. It really baffles me.


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wraithstrike wrote:

Other than the ACG error what are examples of quality slipping?

Yeah Mythic rules won't make it to my table, but not all of them are terrible. I just don't have time to fix the really bad ones, nor do I want to play mother may I as a GM with the book.

Actually Mythic Adventures and Wrath of the Righteous is the perfect example of why I would consider the quality of Paizo's books to be lower than it was before the release of MA/WotR. The ACG has some bad things I've noticed, like the dex-to-damage issue and Divine Protection (although I haven't really read carefully through, waiting for that until I get a hardcopy), but otherwise it seems like a fine book.

But Mythic Adventures and Wrath of the Righteous showed once again that Paizo shoves out new rules and sub-systems without really testing them or, if they make a playtest, really listening to the feedback from fans.

Those new rules don't work at all, at least in the context of CR appropiate mythic opponents providing any type of challenge to a mythic party. Paizo really screwed up in their calculations of what kind of power mythic player characters have at their disposal, as is evident from what those monsters are supposed to dish out and take as damage.


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If there only were a template which you can use for troops... there isn't one, just an example of a troop stat block.


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In the case of the Samurai, I think that specific rules text (You can get rid of nauseated with a standard action) overrules general rules text (you can only make a move action if you are nauseated).


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Session of August 26th 2014:

Six players in attendance, although one had to leave before the other showed up. ^^

So, today the Paladin beat a Balor to death with a dagger.

I'm not sure if I even should add anything to that, but I probably should. :p

Okay, we spent the first hour of this session discussing our next campaign, which will be a homebrewn urban campaign in Oppara. I set out the basic concepts, the people who already had thought up basic character concepts talked about them with the rest of the group and then we established some of the mechanical stuff, like if we want to use hero points, point-buy or rolled stats and so on.

At the end of the hour one player had to leave and the rest of us started out on the session. The group had a random encounter with... a merchant! Since the guy playing the Samurai had to leave so quickly, we put in a pre-assumption that that merchant sold him everything he would still have not spent in the last three sessions (which he had missed due to holidays).

After getting a rumour that Minagho was looking for them and had hired an assassin to take care of them, the party arrived at Battlebliss.

I had planned for a six on three fight, with the party on one side and Gelderfang, a Goristro Thug (from Scorpions document) and a Vavakia on the other. Since two players were not present at the moment (and, importantly, the other player missing so far was the Ranger archer), I decided that Gelderfang would take on the party alone. Of course at that point the player of the Ranger arrived and so the Vavakia joined with Gelderfang.

Well, to make it short, the Vavakia didn't even get its turn and Gelderfang died at the very start of round three, although he very nearly killed the Cleric (who has turned himself into someone who is very hard to hit and to damage). Oh, well.

After the fight was over, the Paladin, who did not get to do more than cast Greater Angelic Aspect on himself and who was quite frustrated at not doing anything more in the fight put out an open challenge to the spectators. And it was answered by a non-mythic Balor.

After exchanging full attacks for a round, the Balor entangled the Paladin with his whip. The Paladin got out a +2 dagger he had on his person and the race was on if the Paladin could kill the Balor before it could decapitate him. I threatened a crit 5 times during the next eight rounds, but never got the confirmation roll. The Balor cast Blasphemy at the Paladin, who made his save but was paralyzed for one round, but since he luckily had taken the corresponding Mercy, he got out of that before the Balor could coup-de-grace him next round (Yes, I know it is debatable if you can Lay on Hands on yourself when you are paralyzed, but whatever. It seemed appropiate to me).

The Ranger, btw, had not run away to a save distance in anticipation of the death throes of the Balor and did not make her save, so she was banished to the black hole material plane, coming out in the Stonewilds in the Worldwound, paralyzed and all. She was rescued by the Cleric and Sorcerer, who went back and scried her... after a successful Knowledge: Local the Sorcerer recognized the area and they teleported to her before she could be found by any Siabre druids. ^^

In any case, the Paladin finished off the Balor while entangled in a flaming whip and that got the party another ten notoriety. With the next session they should get noticed by Nocticula, since they will meet the assassin and probably kill Minagho. I hope very much that the meeting with Nocticula will be a good roleplaying moment and that the players are of the mood to be polite... which could be quite helpful if they want a chance of redeeming her at the end of the campaign or at least setting that scenario up.


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Yes. And I'd hope we get such a heads-up that we can make a decent discussion of where this edition should go. Of course I don't expect that to happen, but it'd be nice... I've been wanting to make some extensive posts on the things which I think should be improved in a new edition and I've been holding off on them for a few years now, since I think they would have only a chance to make some impact when the devs are working on a new edition.


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Tangent101 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Actually what happened is Aroden invaded Hell and slew Asmodeus. But at the last second Asmodeus (who had a contingency plan for this event) did a Divine Magic Jar and possessed Aroden. He figured rather than risk someone try to save Aroden he would make himself appear as his old self and continued ruling in Hell as if nothing had happened.

I still prefer that Aroden turns out to be Vince McMahon.

:p


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James Jacobs wrote:
Spoiler:
4) I'm relatively certain no one will guess who the "boss" of this AP is...


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RJGrady wrote:

With D&D 5e out, there is less reason than ever to create a parallel game, as Basic D&D already nudges in the simplified direction.

If you want a simpler play experience, stick with the APG and core book only and limit your campaign to level 10. I think you will find that the game is, at its roots, simpler than one might imagine.

If you want a much simpler game, someone is probably writing one even as we speak.

Just going to address this post (because, frankly, we've all been having this discussion last year. And the year before that. And the year before that.). But it is not that I want a simpler game in term of the mechanics... if that had been the case, I'm sure I'd have loved 4E. I want a complex game which doesn't break after you reach level ten to twelve. That is quite a different thing.


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It's only one part of why I want a new edition. Aside from the "too many plates spinning" problem Pathfinder is beginning to have, there is the additional factor of a new edition having a chance to tighten up many of the core design problems this edition of Pathfinder was supposed to fix already, but did not.

High-level gaming remains as daunting as ever (and was one of the things the developers told us they were trying to fix back during the alpha and beta period), magic item creation rules and the whole christmas tree effect are problematic and have actually gotten worse (IMO) with this edition. Some classes need fixes to get viable again (Pathfinder Unchained may take care of that problem, except for the poor Fighter).

Y'know, the stuff the we've been griping about forever on the boards. We know that they won't really fix those things in this edition, since that would mean heavily rewriting the CRB and other splatbooks. So that is another factor why I am not dreading a new edition as much as others do. Hell, some of my players are asking me if we don't want to play something else which does not have all those glaring problems which happen every time we get into the second 50% of an adventure path.


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Brandon Hodge wrote:
I got to meet Mikaze!!!

I am filled with envy. Like you can't imagine. ;)

Also, any progress on getting traction for a supplement which explains how to build troops? I thought you wanted to bend some ears at GenCon. :p


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Matt Thomason wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
You guys seriously believe that Paizo will never do a new edition, even if they have to lay off half their staff to please you? You guys seriously believe that they can subsist on adventure related stuff alone at the level they are now?

I don't doubt there'll be a new edition at some point.

I do doubt it'll be a D&D-style reboot that invalidates all the existing material, simply to be able to re-release updated versions of every book over the following 12 months.

But a 2nd Edition Core Rulebook that drops directly into peoples existing collections, with revised versions of the core classes (possibly taking some lessons from Unchained), tweaks to the base combat rules, and an excuse to redo the entire book layout to fit in all the FAQed/errata-ed things that can't fit in right now? (And please for the love of all that's holy remove Paladin as a core class and make it a PrC instead) - I can absolutely see that happening.

All the things you cited will invalidate large parts of prior material, since GM's would be forced to rebuild every NPC in AP's published before that Second Edition CRB had come out. So it really makes little difference if they went the way you just described or just did a more full rebuild.

But I agree that a new edition would probably be another evolution of the 3.x D20 system, instead of a fully new system in the vein of 4E. Which is a good thing, IMO, although they absolutely need to iron out some of the prevalent problems which they already wanted to take care of when they brought out this edition of Pathfinder (high level gaming, to wit. And also other stuff, but I don't want to bog this down into too many details).

The current edition is beginning to groan under the accumulated weight of too much material already. Some deeply weird decisions (Divine Protection), synergies nobody saw before the rules were published (Paragon Surge) and just the glut of material available are going to cause the same long-term problems which plagued 3.5 at the end of its cycle. I can vividly remember the last two years where I just didn't care anymore about the new material, because I could not keep up with all the new classes, feats and spells anymore. I was so happy when Pathfinder removed all of that and started over fresh, without abandoning the core complexity and modularity of the D20 system, like 4E had done.

So, yeah, I am looking forward to a new edition. Even if my purse is not. ^^


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You guys seriously believe that Paizo will never do a new edition, even if they have to lay off half their staff to please you? You guys seriously believe that they can subsist on adventure related stuff alone at the level they are now?


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Mikaze wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I always had mentally pegged Abrogail as kind of a woobie evil guy, because she was a teenage queen. :p
I freely admit that my Abrogail is heavily influenced by Princess Azula. >:)

Yeah, that may have been my influence, too. :D


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Diego Rossi wrote:

I fail to see how "I need to choose between several options to see what swift actions I should use. " is worse than: "My class has no class based uses for a swift action."

Having ways to use your swift action is a strong action bonus, not a penalty.

I have a hard time seeing how having good swift action bonus is a drawback.

The problem is that you can't use the "not as good" ones, because you need the swift/immediate action for the stuff which really helps. Doubling your precision damage on one hit is not as good an option as having had to use Charmed Life or Riposte when it was not your turn. For that matter, Riposte is not as good an option as having Charmed Life available. Things like Dizzying Defense, Dodging Panache and Menacing Swordplay are just not usable class features, because you need the swift action for simply more important stuff.

Mythic gameplay (grantedly a corner case) just excerbates the problem.


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Orthos wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Pan wrote:

/not signed

With the PRD and age of the interent I will never be ready for PF2. I hope they never make one and just keep doing what they are doing. At this point all I needs me is some AP goodness.
Yet they need money to feed their families. Hence, PF2 will happen some day.
I disagree that this leads to that. Especially with Paizo's adventure-focused business plan.

The cycle will continue, as it always has. And they are just as dependent on splatbooks as they are on adventure paths. You may disagree, but I don't think that the developers are so much more special than the guys at WotC were. Especially since a good number of them worked there.

But, hey, we'll see in a few years.


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Pan wrote:

/not signed

With the PRD and age of the interent I will never be ready for PF2. I hope they never make one and just keep doing what they are doing. At this point all I needs me is some AP goodness.

Yet they need money to feed their families. Hence, PF2 will happen some day.

If they choose to listen to good feedback from their fans, I think they have a good shot at bringing us a better system than the one they have right now.


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I always had mentally pegged Abrogail as kind of a woobie evil guy, because she was a teenage queen. :p I guess if she is all grown out now, that mental image will fall by the wayside. Probably should have pegged here more in Joffrey territory in the first place, too. ^^


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I think the only two things where people (including myself) have gone "WTH, this is too good!" are the Arcanist (now even topped by the Exploiter Wizard archetype) and Divine Protection. Both have obvious problems to anybody with experience with the system.

Anything else looked fine or even underpowered to me (the new spells seem to be mostly less effective than the ones we had in the CRB, magic items seem to be just fine).


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Sorry, I was away, so I couldn't respond on time to you guys. I'll do my best to catch up, although I'll keep it short, its's 03:00 a.m. here in Germany at the moment. ^^

Demoyn wrote:

I think you're under-rating the bloodrager and skald a bit. The bloodrager is, without a doubt, one of the most powerful classes ever created. I don't need a single spell from the spellcasting section other than ablative barrier (to put it on par with a barbarian) in order to break the hell out of it. The real power is in the bloodlines. I'd give it a 9 or 9.5.

The skald is definitely underpowered compared to the standard optimizer classes, but has its place. It's a lot better than a bard, and a very capable melee combatant. All I have to say is that at 15th level my ENTIRE PARTY just got 4 strength, 45 extra hit points, 2 AC, and pounce. I'd go with a 7 here.

I think we can put this down to personal preference. I talked about the Skald with two players of my group and one of them reminded me that even in a melee heavy party, a good number of them will still be spellcasters.

Zwordsman wrote:

What about studied strike is a trap btw? I don't have the ACG yet, but I was under the impression the debilities go off whenever studied strike hits..s o you get teh damage and the status debuff.?

or are you refering to it only occuring once per bad guy per fight (baring inspiration spending I assume)?

It's only a one-time damage bonus, which forces you to spend Inspiration and another action to get it onto the target again. Overall, it seems a bit sub-standard, but then again the class itself doesn't seem to lend itself to heavy damage builds. Although I could be wrong there, I'm sure someone can build the Mr. Hyde with the right combination of extracts and discoveries.

ikarinokami wrote:
i was enjoying this post, then i saw the divine protection feat hyperbole. the feat is ok. if that feat should be erased, then power attack should be removed from the game, because it is bar none the most powerful feat in the game period and exponentially more powerful and game changing than divine protection.

No. Seriously, no. Divine Protection gives CHA on saves to a class like the Oracle, which already could get CHA on AC and initiative. You can easily get something like CHA 28 with such a character and the bonus stacks with every other method to increase your saves. It's broken as hell. Divine Grace was barely okay because it was on the class with the greatest roleplaying opportunity cost. Giving it to three other classes (plus archetypes of more classes) is way too much.

wakedown wrote:
Requiring a higher level spell when you're behind the curve on spell level and you are regularly pitted against spellcaster BBEGs that will exceed your level by 3-4 sadly means not a lot of counterspelling. For this reason, I don't recommend the counterspell exploit in level 1-10 play.

Good advice. I see it becoming much more powerful after level 11, though.

ikarinokami wrote:
ask yourself this question is anyone going to play an oracle because of this feat? the answer is no. the feat is ok, there is nothing special about, except people the omg, they stole paladin stuff.

I'm pretty sure the guy in my group who was constantly getting one level of lore Oracles because of the crazy bonus they get (CHA instead of DEX for AC and other stuff) would disagree. I had to explicitly ask him to stop making the same powergaming move.

ikarinokami wrote:


LOL, no one is going to build around this feat.

dazing spell is a feat you build around.
power attack is a feat you build around.
combat expertise + manuver feat chain are feats you build around.
prefered spell is a feat you build around.

no oracle or cleric is going build around this feat. no martial class is going build around this feat.

Your lack of system mastery disturbs me.

Ssalarn wrote:
I'm also not sure where you get the idea that he doesn't have good buffing spells, since he has the full spread of Ranger spells much earlier than the Ranger, and all of the Druid spells up to 6, with many of the spells gained much earlier in the game than either parent class, and in some cases any class, can gain them.

He does not have access to: Haste, Heroism, Greater Heroism, Good Hope, Blessing of Fervor, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Bless, Prayer. That is the kind of buffing spells I am talking about.

Stuff like Lead Blades/Gravity Bow is nice, but if you can't hit anything because of your 3/4 BAB and because you are more than a bit MAD, then they are of no use. I guess melee Hunters will benefit from the increased attack bonuses from their pets you were talking about, but ranged Hunters will have it pretty bad.

Also, could we get a little bit more back on topic? ^^ The Hunter stuff probably should get its own thread, where you guys can do math and all that. Anyway, I'm off to bed, before the sun comes up or anything similarly silly. :p


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Urban AP? I'm so there. Heh, maybe I don't need to write my own AP after all? ^^


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Ssalarn wrote:

The simplest and most obvious trick I found was the Hunter getting +6 to attack by level 3 at the latest (potentially as early as level 1) by having his companion use aiding attack while they know Outflank. If you do wait until level 3, it's probably more like +6 to hit +1d6 damage on the Hunter and +4/+1d6 on the companion's attacks.

There's also a certain lack of clarity. Since the pet learns Skirmisher tricks as handle animal tricks, does that mean he can use them whenever he could use a handle animal trick? The current text would indicate yes, which means the companion gets an ability intended to replace Ranger spellcasting in exchange for not learning sit or fetch (mild exxaggeration, but not by all that much).

By combining the Ranger and Druid lists, gaining spells shared by both lists at the lower level, and then using Bard progression, the Hunter ends up spellcastign elements that in some way mirror the Summoner; that is, he gets spells before any other core or base class has access to them. The fact that if his companion dies he gains its focus in addition to his own and increases the duration of all of his...

Sure, he gets those spells earlier... but most of them really do not help him all that much in combat. And getting his companions animal focus traits is not compatible with the teamwork feats.

It's not that I think I would be unhappy about playing the class, but it really doesn't seem to have a good focus where it excels. I guess you could sell him as a nature focused skill monkey with great help from his animal companion. But the people who say that the class is better than the Druid don't know what they are talking about, because the Druid will rock the Hunters socks off in almost every capacity.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Now, Wizard didn't really need a boost, so this is a bit excessive when compared to everyone else, but it does mean Arcanist won't blow Wizards out of the water to the extent hypothesized by some.

Aw, hell, I didn't even get to that. And so far as I have seen, the Sorcerer doesn't even get in on the fun the Arcanist and Wizard are having.

Why do you hate Sorcerers, Paizo devs?!? :p


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Malwing wrote:
I like how we get a new 250 page book and after one feat we don't like its RAGE.

And I like how that is always the excuse some people use for problems which crop up with new material.


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Just going to answer a few of those.

Mathius wrote:
As a fighter I feel useless unless there is a combat going on.

That's because you chose to play a Fighter. There are plenty of melee classes which have more going on. Also could be a campaign issue.

Mathius wrote:
RP is one thing but that does not need any rules but creative problem solving that uses mechanics does not favor them.

Try to imagine how a non-caster BBEG would prepare himself for the adventurers he knows are coming. There are plenty of examples in AP's of locations where you can't use scry and fry. A powerful non-spellcaster can have spellcasting minions / partners in crime, too.

Mathius wrote:
What do you do to challenge the wizard?

I yet have to play with any of those horror story Wizards who sit in their demiplane all day and just scry and fry at will. Sure, they have better methods of escape and avoidance at hand than anybody else, but so far I have had the luck to play with normal players, who don't do crap like that... mostly because they know that if they pull tactics of that kind, they can expect to face the same in the future. A mutual armistice is sometimes needed between the GM and the players on too destructive options.

I am actually having some issues with that at the moment, but it is understandable since we are playing Wrath of the Righteous and both my players and me constantly get surprised how over the top the whole mythic ruleset is (and how badly designed, to boot).


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So, now that the ACG is out, I thought of rating the new classes in their published version. I expect that some of my opinions will probably be overruled by feats/abilities/items I have missed in my first perusal of the ACG.

Arcanist: Extremely powerful class. SAD, because you really don't need Charisma after all, since the really good exploits don't depend on that attribute. Seems to me that the guys at Paizo looked at the Schrödingers Wizard stereotype and said to themselves "I wonder if we can do that...". Some of the exploits are crazy good, like counterspelling as an immediate action. 10/10 for power; 1/10 for class design.

Bloodrager: Very solid melee class. I don't think that the spellcasting is as beneficial to the class as many would think, since you can't do it faster than normal (as the Warpriest can), but if you select some long duration buffs, it will still be beneficial. 8/10

Brawler: Again, a solid class, although I think that the limited charges per day on Martial Flexibility are not enough to use it as much as you would want to. Paizo has shown a great proclivity for implementing limited charge class abilities in their class design, but I think that here they may have calculated a bit low. 7/10

Hunter: I like redheads and wolves, so I am pre-inclined to like this class. :p However, upon looking at the class instead of the iconic(s), I think it still is underpowered. Since the class wants to do things by itself (and not only have the animal companion do them), it suffers from its 3/4 BAB and a lack of self-buff spells. The Animal Focus class feature does not seem to provide the necessary "ooomph" it would need. 5/10

Investigator: A very good skill monkey, with added versatility due to his alchemical expertise. As far as I can see, Studied Strike is a trap option, since it robs you of your far more important Studied Combat buff. This class seems far less predestined to be a ranged combatant than I felt the Alchemist to be and thus hulking up via mutagens seems far more appropiate to it. 8/10 and only so low because of the Studied Strike trap option.

Shaman: I guess it is a solid caster, since it gets full spellcasting. The spell list does not appeal to me very much, but my personal preference goes heavily to buffing other party members or blasting, so that will affect my perception. Others will probably love it much more than I do. 7/10

Skald: Okay, it's a bard with much less useful buffing abilities, overall. Probably a better martial combatant, but then again it runs into MAD problems. 6/10

Slayer: I like this class. It obsoletes the Rogue almost completely, but I like it. Because, what skill monkey class doesn't obsolete the Rogue, anyway? It's on the list of classes I might want to play someday. 8/10

Swashbuckler: I'm playing one right now at 14th level in a RotRL campaign (started with the last playtest version, which is mostly similar to this one), so I am biased in favor of it.
That having been said, the class is lovely and fun to play, but suffers from a glut of class abilities dependend on swift/immediate actions and the bad Fort/Will saves. You can get ahead of the bad Will save with the Steadfast Personality feat, but the feat to help with Fort saves is not as good. And the less said about the the dex-to-damage feat fiasco, the better. :-/ 7/10

Warpriest: Did it have to only get two skillpoints? :-/ It's a very solid divine melee class, but same as the Swashbuckler, it suffers from having too many class abilities which activate with swift actions. Since you can't "buy down" a move action into a swift action, that quickly becomes a problem when you want to do three or more things at once with it per round. But it does get around the whole "combat is already over when you are done buffing" problem melee monkey Clerics still have. 7/10

One last thing not related to the classes: The Divine Protection feat should be erased from the book. My goodness, what were you guys (the developers) thinking when you wrote it? No wonder PFS disallows it. 10/10 for powergaming, 0/10 for feat design (yes, worse than the Arcanist).


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So, uh, yeah. The Arcanist does not seem nerfed at all. The exploits which use Charisma are not really the best ones and there are way enough good ones you can take. All in all, the class seems to be Schrödingers Wizard with additional crazy powerful stuff on top (counterspelling as an immediate action is still in, for example).


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Chris Lambertz wrote:
Remove a post. Comparing other games to He Who Must Not Be Named really isn't cool. Edition warring isn't OK here.

What, Voldemort?


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I... wow. This was unexpected. Always loved his work. Hook is among my favorite films of all time. He was a great man and a gamer. RIP, Robin.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

There's a difference between academic discourse and critiques and normal conversation. In academic discourse, such a thing is indeed expected, and entirely reasonable (I'm a Psych Major, not a historian, but the principle's generally the same)...but it's not generally acceptable in normal conversation. And this forum has a lot more in common with conversation than it does with formal academic discourse.

In particular, academic discourse and critique have rather specific standards for what kinds of statements are and are not appropriate (and who is qualified to make them)...which this forum does not in the same way (nor to nearly the same degree). A forum where we could indulge in something like formal discourse about the quality of various game elements is an excellent idea...but this forum isn't remotely that, and commenting like it is isn't really appropriate.

In your mind. Sorry, but I think we disagree here. Yes, we are no professional designers, but since forum posters have ascended to be so (most recently Rogue Eidolon), the distinction seems very thin and far from the "professor" and "undergrad" distinction you tried to make below.

The rules of the game follow their own logic, but that logic is still in most instances math based and/or based on historical or pop culture-historical "facts". That nobody yet in several hundred posts has even tried to make a case that there is any sort of logical reason bastard swords should get dex-to-damage over daggers should tell you how absurd the technical aspect of Slashing Grace is to everybody who has seen the feat. Every other designer in any field of public interest who put out something this flawed for public consumption would have to content with people questioning their competence.

I do not understand why there is the desire on a part of the messageboard population to mollycoddle the developers from justified criticism. Do you expect their design decisions to get any better if they never receive criticism? Are they precious flowers who just cannot deal with having their decisions criticised? I generally think better of them than that.

Deadmanwalking wrote:


I doubt most Professors would react any better to an undergrad telling them their latest paper was pure crap in the middle of class or while they're having a pleasant conversation with friends than the Paizo staff have to random people on the internet saying the same. This is true even if the student is right. And that's a much closer example to the situation we're talking about here than a more formal discourse among colleagues. Now, this situation doesn't necessarily reflect well on the Professor, depending on how they react, but it certainly reflects less than nicely on the student.

Flawed comparison, given how much more compentent and accomplished professors are to students, compared to developers to gamers. Yes, we are not professional writers/game developers. But many of us have titles in different fields or work in other highly paid jobs and are veterans of the game.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Now, one might argue that the content should matter more than the form of that content...but that's not how people work. If you attack them, they get defensive, and are less likely to respond positively. Which we surely want them to do. After all, the goal isn't to prove to the Internet that you are Smarter Than Paizo (tm), it's to have a conversation and (hopefully) get either answers to the 'Why?' of things or possibly some changes made.

I completely agree that the goal isn't to prove that we are smarter than the developers. The goal is to give constructive criticism, which is then answered by them taking the criticism to heart and (hopefully) explaining their reasoning behind why they did it. I also completely agree that cursing at the developers is counterproductive, but I disagree with you about at what level criticism stops being constructive and gets personal. I personally hope that the developers are up for a robust conversation about the topic and, from past interactions with many of them, I think a lot of them are able to handle criticism even if a little of snark is in there. There has been a constant factor in the past which prevented much of a constructive conversation to take place, but since that factor is not there anymore, I do hope that we have better communication in the future.


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andreww wrote:
Charisma to saves at level 5 for any oracle, cleric, inquisitor or person willing to dip 1 level. Madness for the oracle and will make me seriously question dumping charisma on the other two.

Madness? This! Is! Paizo! <kicks andreww into a bottomless pit>

:p


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Tels wrote:
I say this because Jason Bulmahn stated he thinks Mythic Weapon Finesse is probably too powerful even for Mythic.

I am literally at a loss for words. :-/


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ikarinokami wrote:
i did read the thread, and i disagree with the conclusion, and i completely concur with what the developers have previously said that such a feat would destroy game balance.

Ah, okay. So it is acceptable if they (in your words) destroy the game balance in four different ways already (Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, Dervish Dance, Agile enchantment), but if we ask for a more generic way of accomplishing the very same thing as those four abilities do, we are wrong?

I kinda miss the logical connections in your argument. ^^


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I still think that the most strange thing is that they think that dex-to-damage is okay with bastard swords and dwarven waraxes, but not light piercing and slashing weapons. I really would like to hear from them how they came by that reasoning.


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Well, I expounded at length already that I feel that it is absurd to give dex-to-damage to large clunky one-handed slashing weapons like the bastard sword, falcata and battleaxe, but not to light piercing and slashing weapons and to one-handed piercing weapons. There just is no logical explanation to this, as far as I can see.

Fencing Grace is a band-aid on a gaping wound of plausibility (one I'll gladly take, though) and I hope Paizo realizes how bizarre this should look to everybody and will adjust accordingly in the near future.


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Well, my guys know how much this AP is taxing me, I'm a sharing person. :p


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Hooray!

I still wonder why other light/one-handed piercing weapons are not allowed to add dex-to-damage, if frikkin' sharks with laser beams attached to their heads bastard swords, katanas, falcatas and dwarven waraxes are. :p Oh, light slashing weapons are also left out in the cold, if I read the new Slashing Grace correctly.

Anyway, I can go to sleep now feeling quite better.


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Captain Beaky and his band wrote:

Mag (and others), if you did nothing other than give the mythic dudes x 5 hit points, what would that do, in your opinion, to the book as written?

I'm trying to gauge what effect that single change would make and how much more would need to work on.

That'd give guys like Baphomet something like 3500-4000 HP. Hm. It probably would make it a two or three round fight at the point the party is fighting him. Depends on party composition.

See, I know that we GM's can houserule everything. But we shouldn't need to, given how the real game designers should have balanced this correctly. That they did overshoot the damage output versus the durability of opponents by that much and didn't notice it really does not heighten my confidence in them.

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