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Alurad Sorizan

magnuskn's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 6,829 posts (6,831 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Gorbacz wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Hard to Fool (APG), Hard to Fool (UC, great job keeping those talent names separate, guys ^^), Ki Pool (UC) and probably others?

The APG talent is called Hard to Fool, the UC talent is called Hard Minded. But hey, never let facts get in the way of confirmation bias.
NOt originally at least.
Yeah, I guess someone didn't get a first printing.

Oh no, the rabid fanboy Gorbacz failed to slavishly support his Paizo overlords with an early purchase! Noooooooo!!!!!

Or ... he is rabid enough to have both printings. :D

Guess you should have double checked, then.


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Nicos wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Hard to Fool (APG), Hard to Fool (UC, great job keeping those talent names separate, guys ^^), Ki Pool (UC) and probably others?

The APG talent is called Hard to Fool, the UC talent is called Hard Minded. But hey, never let facts get in the way of confirmation bias.
NOt originally at least.

Yeah, I guess someone didn't get a first printing.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
BTW, do NPC's have their own progression table for the Big Six-less system or do they get the same bonuses players get? If they do get them, that'd be a huge upgrade to NPC opponents in AP's. ^^
You should probably put them one level lower, as their CR is considered one lower. This will indeed still be an upgrade (with a size that varies depending on their gear allocation and how much was in the Big 6 already), but honestly, it's probably more in line with what their challenge likely should be, there just wasn't a way to do it before without overloading your PCs on gear every time they win a fight.

I don't know if there's a method to high-five someone through the internet, but consider yourself high-fived. Because that was exactly one of the main problems with NPC's, that they suffered from a distinct lack of equipment compared to PC's, but you couldn't give it to them without overloading the WBL system.

Thanks, Mark. :) Although I probably won't be able to convince my groups to change to the new system mid-campaign. ;)


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Many people don't have the book yet, since it's only out for suscribers.


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Neo2151 wrote:
So the answer to, "there are too many trap options," isn't removing trap options - it's nerfing the one class that managed to escape that problem?

Pretty much, yes. A lot of us GM's use AP's, because we don't have time to build our own homebrewn campaigns anymore. AP's are built to a very low standard of optimization, hence the writers almost never (and then most likely purely by accident) provide opposition which actually uses the power options which are bandied about on this board. Initiative scores are low, caster DC's are low, RAGEPOUNCE is not used, even the occasional Summoner is not even using that option. Hell, I've GM'ed four AP's to completion and played in a fifth one and I think I've seen Pounce being used in one of them (by a Shadow Demon), as far as provided opposition goes.

Hence I'd vastly prefer the power combinations to remain obscure, because if they were common and easy to find, they'd break the current AP metagame. That was exactly the problem in Wrath of the Righteous... the power combinations were too obvious in Mythic Adventures and the AP was not nearly written well enough mechanically to deal with.

Not even to mention that if both sides were fully optimized all the time, the game would turn into rocket tag.


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A second edition is pretty much inevitable economically. At some point, people will get enough of the constant release of new classes, feats and items into the existing system, not even to mention inconsistencies in the current rules and unwanted synergy effects. Sales will taper off as people turn to other, less convoluted systems. And the Paizo staff will want to keep feeding their families.

A new edition will have some die-hards who will stop buying Paizo products altogether, but if the developers manage to make the system substantially better with their new iteration, enough others will keep playing, return or start playing that it will work out.

Pathfinder Unchained pretty obviously is a way for them to probe what kind of changes the fanbase reacts positively to. The developers can gauge the feedback and use it as a core around which to build a new edition of the game.


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I'm at a loss how to mimic the headache inducing shakycam.


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My biggest fear in regards to Paizo and Pathfinder is stagnation. That the developers will be too afraid to release a new edition because of those people yelling "If you ever release a new edition, I'll never buy a Paizo product again" and thus this edition will be bloated into oblivion.

I hope Pathfinder Unchained is the developers dipping their toe into the water to see which of their alternative system ideas are best received and that they then build a new, better edition out of that feedback.


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Mark Seifter wrote:


Dodge bonuses typically stack, so that won't alleviate your problem. Your best bet is to make a new type of bonus called "Prowess" or something like that, which doesn't work when denied Dex bonus (since it represents using your awesome prowess and skill to block attacks) and then convert all deflection bonuses to that.

Actually, that sounds like an even better idea. I hadn't thought far enough ahead that you could stack those converted deflection bonuses. Thanks, Mark!

The new bonus probably would be called "Awesomeness". ;)


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Thank you to donate and Lanitril for the quick answers. Just halving WBL is something I could have thought of a few years ago, but I had to make it complicated for myself. :p

I'd seriously consider replacing that deflection bonus with a dodge bonus. PC's are awesome, but getting innate deflector shields seems a bit silly.


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Well, if there was an area which would be "whites only", I think nobody would not call it racial segregation. Outside of maybe Strom Thurmond from his grave.


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Looks nice. I just hope that the unchained Monk does not need to be Lawful Something. If the class includes ways to focus yourself mostly on martial arts, then the alignment restriction is unneeded.

And before anybody comes with the usual "you need to be disciplined to be a Monk", you also need to be disciplined to be a Wizard, but they don't get the holdover alignment restriction.

Anyway, looking forward to this book.


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About three hours with some music in the background, three calculators open at the same time and including having to do a little table for spells per school per levels for all the spellbooks. :)

And I always calculate that the party sells everything, hence the actual WBL is still a bit higher, because everybody will keep certain items.


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Alright, I did my usual "comb through the AP chapters to calculate WBL per chapter" thing yesterday, finally, after I got my hardcover back from the GM of the other group (btw, we finished our playthrough there with an epic win over Karzoug. Really good teamplay by everybody. Great campaign.).

Hence, I can give some definite data as to the wealth progression of the campaign. But first, some caveats:

- I took the approach of counting all the loot available in the campaign, outside of corner cases like Conna the Wise (who is well equipped but not likely to be attacked, except by overzealous player characters). All magic items were counted at half price, including consumables carried by enemies. Art objects and gems are sold at 100% market value. Artifacts were not factored into the WBL calculation, since there is no pricing for them. Count them as a "bonus" for the party.

- Spellbooks were calculated at the price of half their writing costs, i.e. a level one spell is worth 5 GP, a level two spell 20 GP and so on.

- A significant factor later on in the campaign are the spellbooks carried by the opposition in Runeforge and Xin-Shalast. I took the approach that the spellbooks contain every spell in the core rulebook available at the level the enemy in question is capable of casting (i.e. missing the opposition school for all the Thassilonian specialists). That is to reflect the ancient nature of those enemies and was partly suggested by the writers themselves in the AP.

- Module three and four have a lot of difficult to sell loot (seriously, to whom do you go to sell your tenth large magical ogre hook?), but I still was working under the assumption that the party can sell the loot. Why exactly again do weapons and armor not resize, like the rest of magical gear does?

- I did not include the base cost of weapons into my calculations, for the reason that it would have involved searching for that base cost. I already spend close to three hours doing this (calculating spellbooks takes a ton of time, although I did end up making a nice useful list of core books spells per level per school to make it easier on myself), so I didn't feel the need to add to this for such an insignificant wealth factor.

- And small calculation errors may have happened, but generally I am quite sure that I am in the right ballpark.

With that being said, here are the WBL totals for RotRL, per chapter:

Burnt Offerings

Total Treasure: 38.142 GP
-> 38.142 , i.e. 9.535,5 GP/character -> 3.535,5 over WBL per character
1-4 WBL Party of four: 24.000 GP (6.000/character)

Spellbook Lyrie: 225 GP

The Skinsaw Murders

Total Treasure: 97.520 GP
-> 97.520 , i.e. 24.380 GP/character -> 6.880 over WBL per character
4-7 WBL Party of four: 70.000 GP (17.500/character)

Spellbook Caizarlu: 430 GP
Ironbriar’s Spellbook: 260 GP

The Hook Mountain Massacre

Total Treasure: 147.380 GP
-> 147.380 , i.e. 36.845 GP/character -> 1.655 under WBL per character
7-10 WBL Party of four: 154.000 GP (38.500/character)

Spellbook Mammy Graul: 925 GP
Spellbook Barl Breakbones: 1665 GP
Ogre Fighter: 1725 GP in equipment

Fortress of the Stone Giants

Total Treasure: 363.668 GP
-> 363.668 , i.e. 90.917 GP/character -> 12.917 over WBL per character
10-13 WBL Party of four: 312.000 GP (78.000/character)

Scrolls worth: Scrying CL 17 1.062,5 GP ; Heroes’ Feast CL 17 1.275 GP ; Regenerate/Orders’ Wrath CL 17 1.487,5 GP ; Greater Restoration CL 17 3.987,5 GP ; Resurrection CL 17 6.487,5 GP ; True Ressurection 14.412,5 GP

Spellbook Barl Breakbones: 20.895 GP

Sins of the Saviours

Total Treasure: 930.615 GP
-> 930.615 , i.e. 232.653 GP/character -> 132.653 over WBL per Character
13-15 WBL Party of four: 400.000 GP (100.000/Character)

Azaven’s Spellbook: 32.990 GP
Ordikon’s Spellbook: 23.745 GP
Vraxeris’ Simulacrum’s Spellbooks: 807 GP
Vraxeris’ Spellbooks: 33.922 GP (includes lvl 9 spells, but Thassilonian illusionists get really screwed in their opposition schools)
Jordimandus’ Spellbooks: 32.360 GP
Warriors of Wrath Spellbooks: 247 GP (total w/equip 3947 GP)
Highlady Atroxis’ Spellbooks: 24.370

Spires of Xin-Shalast

Total Treasure: 1.698.924 GP
-> 1.698.924 , i.e. 424.731 GP/character -> 134.731 over WBL per character
15-18 WBL Party of four: 1.160.000 GP (290.000/character)

Khalib’s Spellbook: 31.745 GP
Kharzoug’s Spellbook: 40.390 GP

So, that's it. Except for chapter three and four, the AP performs more or less as expected. What your players miss out on in chapter three (and maybe four) is more than made up in chapter five.

Hope that was helpful to anybody. :)


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captain yesterday wrote:

Rogue/Monk threads,

Pro, Con, it doesn't matter, nothing is ever gained, ever.

Also people that constantly change their avatars, those people really bug me :-p

Yeah, and those people who talk to themselves with different avatars, those are the worst, man, the worst!


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Yeah, the constant writer turnover, lots of editorial interference and crossovers tend to make the storylines less cohesive, that's for sure. Not to mention character development.


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"Murderhobo". No other term on this forum gets my hackles up like this one.

I already feel that gamers in general tend to verbally punch themselves in the face way too often. But this is one of those concepts which, if you'd explain it to anyone who is not a gamer, would just confirm every stereotype "normal" people have about gamers.

Aside from that, the concept of a "murderhobo" is disgusting and offensive. It's very probably just me, but when someone refers unironically to their character or group as "murderhobo(s)", I cringe in disgust.


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Yeah, unless it evolves into a cult classic, I fear we won't be getting any sequels. Which is too bad, because maybe then we could have explored how fricking terrible people are in the larger universe, instead of just brushing the theme. Seriously, the generally accepted philosophy in outer space is, according to this film, "genocide, yes please".

But, yeah, air surfing wolf-man Channing Tatum was awesome. What an incredibly cool fighting style, martial arts + energy shield + pistol + flying, please make a Pathfinder class like that. ^^


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Tangent101 wrote:

Who says a character class has to be used by a player? The antipaladin exists so that a GM can have an antagonist designed to counter the Paladin. I mean, take the prestige class for the Red Mantis Assassin. There is no valid reason why a GM would allow someone to run one of these. But it still exists so that GMs can provide antagonists who are Red Mantis Assassins.

The same holds true for the antipaladin.

Yeah, the Skald for example has "NPC class" written all over itself. ^^


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Sacrin wrote:
Thank you so much for your tips Magnuskn. The party members trained in the proper knowledge skills have previously made checks, I guess I can have them make additional checks if the situation gets out of hand. In retrospect it does seem silly that a juvenile dragon already has two offspring, but what's done is done.

You're welcome. I know all too well how it is when group members begin to tell themselves things which aren't even true in-game and then derail the adventure over that.

OTOH, sometimes that is where all the fun lies. ;)


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We killed her with some lucky crits by our Barbarian. But it looked baaad for a few rounds.


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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
I would have no problem running a game for an Antipaladin of Lamashtu and an Aasimar Paladin.

Then you are playing homebrewn rules. The two classes cannot co-exist with each other. Hell, Anti-Paladins actually can't coexist with anyone.


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Well, it's good that I read this thread completely, otherwise I would probably post the same stuff Captain Yesterday and Nobodody's Home have already said.

Just one note to AsterITA, you are taking all this criticism very well, which is a good thing. Way too many new GM's come asking for advice on the Paizo forum, get criticised for things like what happened here with your campaign by people who have GM'ed for many years (I'm "only" at 13 years of GM'ing, compared to NobodysHome 37 years. Yeesh, way to make a fellow GM feel inexperienced ^^) and then get super-defensive and offended. It speaks very well of you that you can see beyond the criticism to the effective advice.

As I said, I've GM'ed for 13 years and after every campaign I find new things I did wrong and which I can do better for the next campaign. It's a long learning process.


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Misroi wrote:
I agreed with you on this...right up until the minute I read on a different thread that the sizable troll population in Kaer Maga would probably be a good place to unload Large-sized weapons, and the City of Strangers is not all that far from Turtleback Ferry...

I'm pretty sure that the good trolls of Kaer Maga would sneer on the suggestion that they use ogre weapons. ^^


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I'll just post a link to my review on this board of the AP. Draw your own conclusions from there as to what you think appropriate. The less I need to think about this AP, the happier I am. :-/

Link


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Ah, yes. Star by Star. The only book I ever burned. Haaaaaaaaaaaaaate it. Gah, flashbacks.

And the less said about the mess Travis made, the better.


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I should probably bookmark this thread to reference it whenever I get to do a homebrewn campaign or want to throw in some extra monsters. To, ahem, know what, errr, "not" to use. ;)


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Dreaming Psion wrote:
7. "I take down the tank with my dual-wielded pepperbox pistols! OH YEAH!"

And I thought I was the only GM stupid enough to allow this.


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Huh, I would have categorized monsters as "not fun for their CR" which do present only a sub-standard challenge for the party, not the reverse.


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Yeah, looking back on it after having GM'ed it, the story had its share of problems which were not so visible by just reading it, as I outlined in my review of the AP. The real problem was, of course, the mythic rules.


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leo1925 wrote:


Isn't Reign of Winter story driven? Have i heard wrong? Is it more like Jade Regent of Shattered Star?

More like Carrion Crown. A series of barely connected vignettes.


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Curse of the Crimson Throne, duh.


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I'm not going to argue the semantics of the spell anymore, since people are so dead set about keeping their blanket immunity level one spell which works against level nine spells. Not in my group and not with the other one where I am a player, either.

And Nocticula gets around the Spell with her aura of awesomeness, anyway. No matter how you want to interpret it.


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Well, so do I. :D


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captain yesterday wrote:
i'm also going to guess that Magnuskn works in linguistics and or law:)

Historian, actually.


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Two things.

1.) Taking this last sentence as meaning the target was immune to all mind control effects from the start does make the preceding sentences of the spell completely meaningless. Hence, this interpretation makes no sense.

2.) Even if you want to take the meaning that the spell makes you immune to all mind control from the start, that doesn't work, because in the sentence the word "new" delineates that the prior sentences dealing with mind control are to be taken into account, meaning that the simplistic interpretation of this singular sentence is wrong.


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<sigh> Okay, let's go through this in detail

Quote:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect.

Full stop here. This clearly delineates that the character with PfE gets a second saving throw if s/he failed the first one. This makes it pretty clear that you don't get a blank check immunity from the spell.

Quote:
If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.

And this part says that you need to succeed at this second saving throw to get the immunity (and suppression of the first effect, which had to be successful to trigger PfE in the first place) against mental control effects.


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Very likely not. ^^


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Those Oni will be useful in the JR campaign I'm going to start running again in a few months. Thank you! :)


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My recommendation is tossing mythic out completely and going with daily replenishing hero points, but YMMV.


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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
“Mythic Adventures works (well mostly the CR system tends to break down a little quicker and thus many of the published mythic monsters are under CR… but you can make it work), WotR as an adventure path works ( obviously part 1 works, but benefits from some more fleshing out and it has issues like other APs, but on the whole the concept works), they don’t work together.

Objection! Mythic Adventures clearly does not work, for the reason so eloquently stated by NobodysHome:

NobodysHome wrote:
Damage goes up by a factor of 10. Hit points go up by a factor of 2. Somehow, that leads to everything dying in a single round. Go figure.


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Someone should probably do an edit where Thranduil gets white hair and black skin for all those Drizzt fans. :p


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The problem is not that you cannot tweak mythic, but that mythic is broken already out of the box. Player character powers overshoot opponent abilities on a ridiculous level. I already made comments how curiously underpowered opponents looked when the rulebook first came out... little did I know how much I was underestimating the real power level even then.

But your condescending remarks are quite unfounded. As Tangent said, I already tweaked the power levels much higher than what it was in the books proper... it just wasn't enough. If I'd run the AP out of the book with a simple +50% to the opponents numbers to account for my six players, it would have been even worse.

Going into the AP with a "positive attitude" doesn't change the math, no matter how much you tell us that it does.

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