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Reading it: Very dense, legalistic. Forget seeing forest for the trees the writing has you concentrating on bark and you have to pan out from there to see how the classes work and get a reasonable picture of what it does.
Yes, thank you, that encapsulates perfectly the feeling I got when trying to make sense of the Kineticist. Hell, I haven't even looked at the other classes yet, several days later.
captain yesterday wrote:
Oh, hell yeah. Brandon did supremely good work on Shattered Star 6 and Reign of Winter 5. I'd wish he would write more adventure path modules. But I guess after writing the best single module Paizo has ever published, he wanted to go out on a high note. ;)
If mythic is used sparingly in a homebrewn campaign by the GM, it does exactly what Gorbacz said and is indeed a good tool to spice up encounters.
Mythic as used in Wrath of the Righteous is a disaster and not only for groups which optimize. The system would need significant nerfs to become playable.
Anyway, the good AP's:
Rise of the Runelords (revised) is, IMO, the best AP. It has a very decent mix of roleplaying and combat, an interesting story and keeps the party motivated throughout the entire AP.
Curse of the Crimson Throne is also an excellent AP, keeping the party in a single city throughout 2/3's of the AP. The trip outside the city could have been better and shorter, but it still works quite well.
Jade Regent is an excellent AP. It starts in Avistan and then progresses to Tian Xia. The middle modules are a bit weak, in that the third module is an interminable trip over the north pole (a feeling which seems to be intentional by the writer) and the fourth module has an excellent start, but the second half is a way too long dungeon with underpowered opposition (which can be remedied by replacing it with the Ruby Phoenix Tournament adventure, which many have done), but the last two modules make up for it. I would be very interested to see what Paizo would do with an AP all set in Tian Xia.
While I haven't run Shattered Star yet, I am very much looking forward to it, since the entire AP looks to be excellently done from my reading.
And, as I said before, Carrion Crown is a very competently written AP, brought down only by a too combat heavy last module and also that the main villain is a non-entity until the very last fight (which can be remedied by introducing him much earlier. I personally had him appear in the very first module and constantly mentioned him during the entire AP, although he only revealed himself as the bad guy at the end of module five).
People also say good things about Legacy of Fire, although you'd have to ask others about details.
I'll be honest, when I got the PDF yesterday evening, my eyes glazed over when trying to make sense of the Kineticist and after that I only skimmed through the book for the artwork and to read the list of spells (which look singularily useless for the non-psychic classes). I guess I'll take a new look later today, maybe have some actual opinions. But the new classes look waaaaay more complicated than what we got before, needlessly so.
Yes, of course, ignore the advice of people who actually have experienced the problems those untested sub-systems caused in their campaigns, because "whining". Great idea. You ignore traffic rules, too, because other people "whined" that running a red light is a bad idea?
Carrion Crown is a solid AP, with an uninspired ending. The first five modules have a mix of investigation and combat, while the sixth module is combat from start to finish.
Reign of Winter is a travel AP where you visit ever increasingly exotic locations. Its modules therefore are pretty much disconnected from each other and modules three and four were not my cup of tea when I read them. Module six also is not that super interesting. Module five, however, is the single best AP module published by Paizo.
Shattered Star is a very solid dungeon-heavy AP, which tried to show that dungeons can also have things like diplomacy and roleplaying. It's on my list of AP's I want to GM one day.
I can't talk about Giantslayer, since I've only skimmed through the artwork, but apparently it also doesn't have any additional new mechanics.
I believe your expectations may be unrealistic. Making a large rules book is a very error prone process. And I really doubt that your playing experience has been affected by many non-ACG errata.
In small ways, it has over the years. Situations like "No, you can't do this anymore, they erratae'd it" have come up multiple times.
And I know that it is better to errata than not, but it still makes me feel like I misinvested money in getting the first printings and now being stuck with them.
Actually, being someone who always buys first printings and feeling like an extended playtester after one or more rounds of errata is a problem I also have and have heard mentioned around my two tables, too. It's coming to the point where I seriously think about just purchasing the PDF, printing it out and having it bound into a hardcover, until at least a second printing is available. I am not made out of money and I find it quite frustrating that about every hardcover I own is partially invalidated by now.
I don't think you'll see PF 2.0 coming any time soon. I think we may see a halt of PF RPG books coming out. Maybe focus on different genres like PF SciFi RPG. There is enough PF RPG content to feed the campaign setting for year. Pathfinder Online will also drive sales. I mean that's how I ended up playing pen/paper RPGs back in the day. Started with BBS MUDs on the Apple IIe.
We had some megathreads a few months back where people went back and forth on the issue. I am actually tired of discussing it, since some people have this weird belief that Paizo would never, ever betray them by bringing out PF 2.0, even if it meant that they'd unemploy themselves by doing so. So, I'll leave it with the small mention I made in the context of what Turin wrote. We'll see in a few years, anyway. GenCon this year would actually be the best time for Paizo to announce that they are working on PF 2.0, since they seem to have used up all the design space by now for new classes with Occult Adventures (even with the Vigilante).
John Lynch 106 wrote:
They still haven't phased out the Paladin with an "Unchained Paladin", so I'd say they are not completely abandoning the concept. I guess we'll have to wait for the next edition of Pathfinder to see if they'd do thing differently. Or maybe PF Unchained 2 something something.
And, by the way, trying to reduce this issue to "you vs. everyone else" is laughable. The mere existance of all those Paladin threads is a testament that the class has issues. They are, however, mostly in the roleplaying side of things rather than in the mechanics.
Or, better said, since the roleplaying side of things hugely favors the classes strengths (Paizo's adventure paths tend to favor evil opponents in most cases), the mechanical strengths of the class are magnified.
Anyway, this is getting way to OT for the actual topic at hand.
Spoony (maybe known to some here, he is an internet reviewer of games, movies and other things) has a show named Countermonkey, where he exposits about roleplaying and tries to give out advice and tell some stories.
In his latest episode, just uploaded yesterday, he recounts a tale which should be familiar to all who have played through or GM'ed Second Darkness. I got a big kick out of listening to his story and thought that maybe some people would be interested, too.
Hence, a link to the video: Countermonkey: Baboon!
The key word there is "unrelenting." The Morning War may or may not have had fault on both sides, but the undeniable facts are that the geth stopped fighting and the quarians didn't. This is especially true in the actual scene where you have to make the choice, because Shepard and Tali both warn Gerrel that they are about to commit auto-genocide-by-geth if they keep up the attack, but none of the quarian ships break off - even when they start getting blown thoroughly out of the sky.
Lest we forget, the Geth control an entire sector of space. The Quarians (the 28 million that are left of them of the population of several billion) are stuck like cattle in their decaying space ships for several hundred years.
I'm sorry, but I can feel little sympathy for the Geth playing "Oh, we are so innocent!" given the facts that they committed genocide. I am also unhappy about the Quarians deciding to try to wipe out the Geth again, make no mistake. But I am just still hacked off at the hit piece BioWare did on the Quarians to make the Geth look good and the Quarians look bad (so that the decision wasn't automatical to support the Quarians, is my best guess). It was bad, one-sided storytelling.
"Mikaze still on?" is the better question, given that he hasn't posted since April. :( I almost have the horrible thought that he got perma-banned for some inane reason (like posting passionately about the stupid Hugo awards controversy), the way nobody has seen or heard from him for months. I really hope that isn't the case and that he is well. He is my favorite person on this messageboard.
Guess you should have double checked, then.
Yeah, I guess someone didn't get a first printing.
Mark Seifter wrote:
I don't know if there's a method to high-five someone through the internet, but consider yourself high-fived. Because that was exactly one of the main problems with NPC's, that they suffered from a distinct lack of equipment compared to PC's, but you couldn't give it to them without overloading the WBL system.
Thanks, Mark. :) Although I probably won't be able to convince my groups to change to the new system mid-campaign. ;)
So the answer to, "there are too many trap options," isn't removing trap options - it's nerfing the one class that managed to escape that problem?
Pretty much, yes. A lot of us GM's use AP's, because we don't have time to build our own homebrewn campaigns anymore. AP's are built to a very low standard of optimization, hence the writers almost never (and then most likely purely by accident) provide opposition which actually uses the power options which are bandied about on this board. Initiative scores are low, caster DC's are low, RAGEPOUNCE is not used, even the occasional Summoner is not even using that option. Hell, I've GM'ed four AP's to completion and played in a fifth one and I think I've seen Pounce being used in one of them (by a Shadow Demon), as far as provided opposition goes.
Hence I'd vastly prefer the power combinations to remain obscure, because if they were common and easy to find, they'd break the current AP metagame. That was exactly the problem in Wrath of the Righteous... the power combinations were too obvious in Mythic Adventures and the AP was not nearly written well enough mechanically to deal with.
Not even to mention that if both sides were fully optimized all the time, the game would turn into rocket tag.
A second edition is pretty much inevitable economically. At some point, people will get enough of the constant release of new classes, feats and items into the existing system, not even to mention inconsistencies in the current rules and unwanted synergy effects. Sales will taper off as people turn to other, less convoluted systems. And the Paizo staff will want to keep feeding their families.
A new edition will have some die-hards who will stop buying Paizo products altogether, but if the developers manage to make the system substantially better with their new iteration, enough others will keep playing, return or start playing that it will work out.
Pathfinder Unchained pretty obviously is a way for them to probe what kind of changes the fanbase reacts positively to. The developers can gauge the feedback and use it as a core around which to build a new edition of the game.
My biggest fear in regards to Paizo and Pathfinder is stagnation. That the developers will be too afraid to release a new edition because of those people yelling "If you ever release a new edition, I'll never buy a Paizo product again" and thus this edition will be bloated into oblivion.
I hope Pathfinder Unchained is the developers dipping their toe into the water to see which of their alternative system ideas are best received and that they then build a new, better edition out of that feedback.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Actually, that sounds like an even better idea. I hadn't thought far enough ahead that you could stack those converted deflection bonuses. Thanks, Mark!
The new bonus probably would be called "Awesomeness". ;)
Thank you to donate and Lanitril for the quick answers. Just halving WBL is something I could have thought of a few years ago, but I had to make it complicated for myself. :p
I'd seriously consider replacing that deflection bonus with a dodge bonus. PC's are awesome, but getting innate deflector shields seems a bit silly.
Looks nice. I just hope that the unchained Monk does not need to be Lawful Something. If the class includes ways to focus yourself mostly on martial arts, then the alignment restriction is unneeded.
And before anybody comes with the usual "you need to be disciplined to be a Monk", you also need to be disciplined to be a Wizard, but they don't get the holdover alignment restriction.
Anyway, looking forward to this book.
About three hours with some music in the background, three calculators open at the same time and including having to do a little table for spells per school per levels for all the spellbooks. :)
And I always calculate that the party sells everything, hence the actual WBL is still a bit higher, because everybody will keep certain items.
Alright, I did my usual "comb through the AP chapters to calculate WBL per chapter" thing yesterday, finally, after I got my hardcover back from the GM of the other group (btw, we finished our playthrough there with an epic win over Karzoug. Really good teamplay by everybody. Great campaign.).
Hence, I can give some definite data as to the wealth progression of the campaign. But first, some caveats:
- I took the approach of counting all the loot available in the campaign, outside of corner cases like Conna the Wise (who is well equipped but not likely to be attacked, except by overzealous player characters). All magic items were counted at half price, including consumables carried by enemies. Art objects and gems are sold at 100% market value. Artifacts were not factored into the WBL calculation, since there is no pricing for them. Count them as a "bonus" for the party.
- Spellbooks were calculated at the price of half their writing costs, i.e. a level one spell is worth 5 GP, a level two spell 20 GP and so on.
- A significant factor later on in the campaign are the spellbooks carried by the opposition in Runeforge and Xin-Shalast. I took the approach that the spellbooks contain every spell in the core rulebook available at the level the enemy in question is capable of casting (i.e. missing the opposition school for all the Thassilonian specialists). That is to reflect the ancient nature of those enemies and was partly suggested by the writers themselves in the AP.
- Module three and four have a lot of difficult to sell loot (seriously, to whom do you go to sell your tenth large magical ogre hook?), but I still was working under the assumption that the party can sell the loot. Why exactly again do weapons and armor not resize, like the rest of magical gear does?
- I did not include the base cost of weapons into my calculations, for the reason that it would have involved searching for that base cost. I already spend close to three hours doing this (calculating spellbooks takes a ton of time, although I did end up making a nice useful list of core books spells per level per school to make it easier on myself), so I didn't feel the need to add to this for such an insignificant wealth factor.
- And small calculation errors may have happened, but generally I am quite sure that I am in the right ballpark.
With that being said, here are the WBL totals for RotRL, per chapter:
Total Treasure: 38.142 GP
Spellbook Lyrie: 225 GP
The Skinsaw Murders
Total Treasure: 97.520 GP
Spellbook Caizarlu: 430 GP
The Hook Mountain Massacre
Total Treasure: 147.380 GP
Spellbook Mammy Graul: 925 GP
Fortress of the Stone Giants
Total Treasure: 363.668 GP
Scrolls worth: Scrying CL 17 1.062,5 GP ; Heroes’ Feast CL 17 1.275 GP ; Regenerate/Orders’ Wrath CL 17 1.487,5 GP ; Greater Restoration CL 17 3.987,5 GP ; Resurrection CL 17 6.487,5 GP ; True Ressurection 14.412,5 GP
Spellbook Barl Breakbones: 20.895 GP
Sins of the Saviours
Total Treasure: 930.615 GP
Azaven’s Spellbook: 32.990 GP
Spires of Xin-Shalast
Total Treasure: 1.698.924 GP
Khalib’s Spellbook: 31.745 GP
So, that's it. Except for chapter three and four, the AP performs more or less as expected. What your players miss out on in chapter three (and maybe four) is more than made up in chapter five.
Hope that was helpful to anybody. :)
"Murderhobo". No other term on this forum gets my hackles up like this one.
I already feel that gamers in general tend to verbally punch themselves in the face way too often. But this is one of those concepts which, if you'd explain it to anyone who is not a gamer, would just confirm every stereotype "normal" people have about gamers.
Aside from that, the concept of a "murderhobo" is disgusting and offensive. It's very probably just me, but when someone refers unironically to their character or group as "murderhobo(s)", I cringe in disgust.