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Alurad Sorizan

magnuskn's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 6,819 posts (6,821 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Wait, didn't we have this exact same thread just this week?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
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Mark Seifter wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
BTW, do NPC's have their own progression table for the Big Six-less system or do they get the same bonuses players get? If they do get them, that'd be a huge upgrade to NPC opponents in AP's. ^^
You should probably put them one level lower, as their CR is considered one lower. This will indeed still be an upgrade (with a size that varies depending on their gear allocation and how much was in the Big 6 already), but honestly, it's probably more in line with what their challenge likely should be, there just wasn't a way to do it before without overloading your PCs on gear every time they win a fight.

I don't know if there's a method to high-five someone through the internet, but consider yourself high-fived. Because that was exactly one of the main problems with NPC's, that they suffered from a distinct lack of equipment compared to PC's, but you couldn't give it to them without overloading the WBL system.

Thanks, Mark. :) Although I probably won't be able to convince my groups to change to the new system mid-campaign. ;)


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BTW, do NPC's have their own progression table for the Big Six-less system or do they get the same bonuses players get? If they do get them, that'd be a huge upgrade to NPC opponents in AP's. ^^


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Rynjin wrote:
A 50% chance to get reamed by a save or don't play for several hours is bad odds.

You can say that for a lot of classes in Pathfinder, so the Unchained Monk is hardly unique in that respect. I think it'd be a worthwhile topic for the developers how they can give an option on how to prevent such time-outs for players in some future Unchained product.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Hmm, I hadn't seen anything on a new alignment section. That gives me hope, certainly. I was certain that the Lawful restriction was going to be gone, especially with Seifter working on it who (judging by his work on the Kineticist) would know exactly the sort of character Lawful-only Monks can restrict.

We each took the lead on different sections of the book. For instance, Jason was the lead on the new classes, and I took the lead on some of the other subsystems, so the kudos for the cool new style strikes should go to him; I love so many of the style strikes!

Also...let's just say you'll have an option for something pretty similar to Zaheer some day soon, and despite mentioning discipline several times in the description, it won't be restricted in alignment at all!

Well, I hope that means that you went full Korra on the Kineticist.


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Many people don't have the book yet, since it's only out for suscribers.


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I'm really surprised and a bit dismayed how this new system nerfs spontaneous casters. Oh, well, I guess since it's optional it doesn't need to be used.


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So, the new system is not very good, from what I can see. Too bad.


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Neo2151 wrote:
So the answer to, "there are too many trap options," isn't removing trap options - it's nerfing the one class that managed to escape that problem?

Pretty much, yes. A lot of us GM's use AP's, because we don't have time to build our own homebrewn campaigns anymore. AP's are built to a very low standard of optimization, hence the writers almost never (and then most likely purely by accident) provide opposition which actually uses the power options which are bandied about on this board. Initiative scores are low, caster DC's are low, RAGEPOUNCE is not used, even the occasional Summoner is not even using that option. Hell, I've GM'ed four AP's to completion and played in a fifth one and I think I've seen Pounce being used in one of them (by a Shadow Demon), as far as provided opposition goes.

Hence I'd vastly prefer the power combinations to remain obscure, because if they were common and easy to find, they'd break the current AP metagame. That was exactly the problem in Wrath of the Righteous... the power combinations were too obvious in Mythic Adventures and the AP was not nearly written well enough mechanically to deal with.

Not even to mention that if both sides were fully optimized all the time, the game would turn into rocket tag.


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christos gurd wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I'm very surprised Mikaze isn't here to fanboy over all this.
"sigh" i miss mikaze, haven't seen him around lately.

Well, he hasn't posted for two weeks, but that has happened in the past. He'll turn up shortly, I hope.


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Hm, how does that affect Sorcerers? If they spontaneously use any other metamagic feat, they now can't also use Quicken Spell? That's a harsh nerf to spontaneous casters.


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David knott 242 wrote:

Most action types are eliminated, and most swift, move, and standard actions become single acts. Casting a standard action spell is two acts, and most full round actions cost three acts. You get three acts each turn.

Soooo... drastic nerf to Quicken Spell or has it been turned into "no action"?


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I'm very surprised Mikaze isn't here to fanboy over all this.


7 people marked this as a favorite.
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A second edition is pretty much inevitable economically. At some point, people will get enough of the constant release of new classes, feats and items into the existing system, not even to mention inconsistencies in the current rules and unwanted synergy effects. Sales will taper off as people turn to other, less convoluted systems. And the Paizo staff will want to keep feeding their families.

A new edition will have some die-hards who will stop buying Paizo products altogether, but if the developers manage to make the system substantially better with their new iteration, enough others will keep playing, return or start playing that it will work out.

Pathfinder Unchained pretty obviously is a way for them to probe what kind of changes the fanbase reacts positively to. The developers can gauge the feedback and use it as a core around which to build a new edition of the game.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
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I'm at a loss how to mimic the headache inducing shakycam.


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archmagi1 wrote:
*cries over a 30min, 1200 word review that was eaten by the preview button*

Yes, that is one of those forum things which can make for some enormous frustration. I always back up my posts at least with CTRL-C before hitting the "post" button.


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Matrix Dragon wrote:
You know... I just thought of something. The unchained barbarian no longer gives strength bonuses, right?. That means it is possible to run a Dex based barbarian now! Yessss :D

Urban Barbarian allows this already with what we had until now. :)


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Wait, do the preordered get PDFs? Because I got my shipping email but no PDF. I preordered but am not subscribed.
Only subscriptions. That said, given you can cancel your subscription whenever you like, with little hassle, if you're going to preorder, you might as well subscribe and get a shiny pdf!

For us oversea people, the problem with a suscription is that the shipping cost is just too damn high for hardcovers. I am willing to fork over my seven dollars for oversea shipping on adventure paths, because with the Euro/Dollar conversion I am still not paying much more than I would by buying in Europe. But if an hardcover ships together with an adventure path module, shipping alone is something like 30 dollars, which is just a bit too rich for my taste.

Hence, I'll have to sit and fume and mumble to myself for another two weeks. Oh, well. ^^


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My biggest fear in regards to Paizo and Pathfinder is stagnation. That the developers will be too afraid to release a new edition because of those people yelling "If you ever release a new edition, I'll never buy a Paizo product again" and thus this edition will be bloated into oblivion.

I hope Pathfinder Unchained is the developers dipping their toe into the water to see which of their alternative system ideas are best received and that they then build a new, better edition out of that feedback.


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Ah, I see. Well, I'll have to wait for the book to gauge all the possibilities for myself. Thanks Joe and TOZ!


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christos gurd wrote:
interesting to note, the unchained monk needs to be lawful, the VM monk does not, although it won't gain ki strike lawful.

I'm failing at my abbreviations at this moment, what is the VM Monk?

And I'm a bit sorry to see that the Unchained Monk still needs to be lawful. I had hoped for the possibility of an modular martial artist type Monk, who could be more in the vein of Jacky Chan characters. I guess it's back to the Brawler for those guys.


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Mark Seifter wrote:


Dodge bonuses typically stack, so that won't alleviate your problem. Your best bet is to make a new type of bonus called "Prowess" or something like that, which doesn't work when denied Dex bonus (since it represents using your awesome prowess and skill to block attacks) and then convert all deflection bonuses to that.

Actually, that sounds like an even better idea. I hadn't thought far enough ahead that you could stack those converted deflection bonuses. Thanks, Mark!

The new bonus probably would be called "Awesomeness". ;)


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

If you replace it with Dodge then the low level spells that offer Deflection bonuses would become dramatically better. Shield of Faith in particular springs to mind.

I quite like the idea of a mechanical plot armor bonus myself. ;)

Indeed, that replacement would raise AC too much when combined with the scaling bonus from shield of faith. But Unchained is all about tinkering! So I fully endorse it if you want to make it a dodge bonus but then remove the ability for PCs to gain deflection bonuses, or something like that.

Making all deflection bonuses into dodge bonuses for this system would seem like the best idea for me, yes. :)


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Thank you to donate and Lanitril for the quick answers. Just halving WBL is something I could have thought of a few years ago, but I had to make it complicated for myself. :p

I'd seriously consider replacing that deflection bonus with a dodge bonus. PC's are awesome, but getting innate deflector shields seems a bit silly.


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So, in the system where PC's get awesome without any big six at all, is there some downward adjustment to WBL? Because otherwise, it'd be a radical power boost to player characters.

Also, do PC's get innate deflection bonuses? Or is that particular kind of bonus transformed into something like a dodge bonus?


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:

Alright, found it. In <the interview linked above>, at 1:04:26:

Interview wrote:

PERRAM. On a similar line, Kudaku asked, Is there a subsystem to avoid the Big 6?

SRM: Ooh. Uh. No.

VERY disappointing.

Huh. Well I guess since we've given a direct and official answer on a podcast, that I'll just say this: The answer to Kudaku's question is actually "Yes."

It wasn't on the original outline, which may be why the interview had a different answer, but I pitched and added it in when I joined up.

I kinda love you right you, Roguey. :) I hope you also did an appropiate WBL adjustment for such a system, because that that was always the point where I went "Uh-oh, this is actually really complicated..." ^^


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Well, if there was an area which would be "whites only", I think nobody would not call it racial segregation. Outside of maybe Strom Thurmond from his grave.


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wraithstrike wrote:
I think it was also mentioned that the summoner as we see it, was sent out with the wrong class spell list. Hopefully the one they intended to send out is in this book.

So, for whom was that spell list originally intended? ^^


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I can only hope Skin Game wins. Butcher really deserves recognition for the amazing work he has done over the years and it was a very good entry in the series.


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We already had this thread a few years ago. :) You'll find some good ideas there.


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Of course. My assumption was that you, as a GM, have motivated players who might get things wrong. Having "bad players" is wholly another problem.


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It will depend a bit on the pace of your group. At the start, you are going to do well, but in the later part of the campaign, saving throws become a big concern. If you run out of Charmed Life at the wrong time, it could mean a character death or two.

Generally, be aware that the Swashbuckler has a poor action economy, with four swift/immediate action abilities vying for your attention each round.


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Looks nice. I just hope that the unchained Monk does not need to be Lawful Something. If the class includes ways to focus yourself mostly on martial arts, then the alignment restriction is unneeded.

And before anybody comes with the usual "you need to be disciplined to be a Monk", you also need to be disciplined to be a Wizard, but they don't get the holdover alignment restriction.

Anyway, looking forward to this book.


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Eh, our GM (and we all as players) took it that the archive could only be used for spells you are actually capable of casting. So Wish wasn't a factor for us (we had a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard as our primary arcane caster).


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About three hours with some music in the background, three calculators open at the same time and including having to do a little table for spells per school per levels for all the spellbooks. :)

And I always calculate that the party sells everything, hence the actual WBL is still a bit higher, because everybody will keep certain items.


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If your player characters don't care to do things for Sandpoint, then you kinda failed as a GM to make them care. This is a thing which should be done at character creation, so that the players make characters who are motivated to do stuff like helping out their friends and family. Allowing players to build completely mercenary characters with no motivation other than money is not on the players, but on you.

And this is not an AP where such a problem can easily occur with the given set-up, like it does to many people in Curse of the Crimson Throne. The players guide pretty much tells everybody to build people with a connection to Sandpoint.


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Alright, I did my usual "comb through the AP chapters to calculate WBL per chapter" thing yesterday, finally, after I got my hardcover back from the GM of the other group (btw, we finished our playthrough there with an epic win over Karzoug. Really good teamplay by everybody. Great campaign.).

Hence, I can give some definite data as to the wealth progression of the campaign. But first, some caveats:

- I took the approach of counting all the loot available in the campaign, outside of corner cases like Conna the Wise (who is well equipped but not likely to be attacked, except by overzealous player characters). All magic items were counted at half price, including consumables carried by enemies. Art objects and gems are sold at 100% market value. Artifacts were not factored into the WBL calculation, since there is no pricing for them. Count them as a "bonus" for the party.

- Spellbooks were calculated at the price of half their writing costs, i.e. a level one spell is worth 5 GP, a level two spell 20 GP and so on.

- A significant factor later on in the campaign are the spellbooks carried by the opposition in Runeforge and Xin-Shalast. I took the approach that the spellbooks contain every spell in the core rulebook available at the level the enemy in question is capable of casting (i.e. missing the opposition school for all the Thassilonian specialists). That is to reflect the ancient nature of those enemies and was partly suggested by the writers themselves in the AP.

- Module three and four have a lot of difficult to sell loot (seriously, to whom do you go to sell your tenth large magical ogre hook?), but I still was working under the assumption that the party can sell the loot. Why exactly again do weapons and armor not resize, like the rest of magical gear does?

- I did not include the base cost of weapons into my calculations, for the reason that it would have involved searching for that base cost. I already spend close to three hours doing this (calculating spellbooks takes a ton of time, although I did end up making a nice useful list of core books spells per level per school to make it easier on myself), so I didn't feel the need to add to this for such an insignificant wealth factor.

- And small calculation errors may have happened, but generally I am quite sure that I am in the right ballpark.

With that being said, here are the WBL totals for RotRL, per chapter:

Burnt Offerings

Total Treasure: 38.142 GP
-> 38.142 , i.e. 9.535,5 GP/character -> 3.535,5 over WBL per character
1-4 WBL Party of four: 24.000 GP (6.000/character)

Spellbook Lyrie: 225 GP

The Skinsaw Murders

Total Treasure: 97.520 GP
-> 97.520 , i.e. 24.380 GP/character -> 6.880 over WBL per character
4-7 WBL Party of four: 70.000 GP (17.500/character)

Spellbook Caizarlu: 430 GP
Ironbriar’s Spellbook: 260 GP

The Hook Mountain Massacre

Total Treasure: 147.380 GP
-> 147.380 , i.e. 36.845 GP/character -> 1.655 under WBL per character
7-10 WBL Party of four: 154.000 GP (38.500/character)

Spellbook Mammy Graul: 925 GP
Spellbook Barl Breakbones: 1665 GP
Ogre Fighter: 1725 GP in equipment

Fortress of the Stone Giants

Total Treasure: 363.668 GP
-> 363.668 , i.e. 90.917 GP/character -> 12.917 over WBL per character
10-13 WBL Party of four: 312.000 GP (78.000/character)

Scrolls worth: Scrying CL 17 1.062,5 GP ; Heroes’ Feast CL 17 1.275 GP ; Regenerate/Orders’ Wrath CL 17 1.487,5 GP ; Greater Restoration CL 17 3.987,5 GP ; Resurrection CL 17 6.487,5 GP ; True Ressurection 14.412,5 GP

Spellbook Barl Breakbones: 20.895 GP

Sins of the Saviours

Total Treasure: 930.615 GP
-> 930.615 , i.e. 232.653 GP/character -> 132.653 over WBL per Character
13-15 WBL Party of four: 400.000 GP (100.000/Character)

Azaven’s Spellbook: 32.990 GP
Ordikon’s Spellbook: 23.745 GP
Vraxeris’ Simulacrum’s Spellbooks: 807 GP
Vraxeris’ Spellbooks: 33.922 GP (includes lvl 9 spells, but Thassilonian illusionists get really screwed in their opposition schools)
Jordimandus’ Spellbooks: 32.360 GP
Warriors of Wrath Spellbooks: 247 GP (total w/equip 3947 GP)
Highlady Atroxis’ Spellbooks: 24.370

Spires of Xin-Shalast

Total Treasure: 1.698.924 GP
-> 1.698.924 , i.e. 424.731 GP/character -> 134.731 over WBL per character
15-18 WBL Party of four: 1.160.000 GP (290.000/character)

Khalib’s Spellbook: 31.745 GP
Kharzoug’s Spellbook: 40.390 GP

So, that's it. Except for chapter three and four, the AP performs more or less as expected. What your players miss out on in chapter three (and maybe four) is more than made up in chapter five.

Hope that was helpful to anybody. :)


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Rickmeister wrote:

Thinking of running it...

Any advices on what to take from those DM's that have already ventured so far? :-)

<takes deep breath>

Don't run it, it's not worth the incredible trauma and loss in confidence in Paizo as good developers.

Otherwise, if that doesn't convince you, the others in this thread probably already have made good suggestions on how to turn down the stupid so that the AP is playable. I am much still much too angry to talk rationally at length about this topic.


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Well, they didn't do an ACG AP, either.

A lot of NPC warrior groups will get a big boost from the Skald. That's pretty much all the class is good for, though. :p


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Yeah, the developers went all out on giving goodies to the players. As usual, a lack of playtesting due to development crunch time leads to them only eyeballing balance and getting it, it seems every more often nowadays, wrong.

I do wonder if the cashflow at the company is so precarious that they never are able to take a step back and think about changing up this process to deliver less flawed products.


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captain yesterday wrote:

Rogue/Monk threads,

Pro, Con, it doesn't matter, nothing is ever gained, ever.

Also people that constantly change their avatars, those people really bug me :-p

Yeah, and those people who talk to themselves with different avatars, those are the worst, man, the worst!


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Yeah, the constant writer turnover, lots of editorial interference and crossovers tend to make the storylines less cohesive, that's for sure. Not to mention character development.


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Ashiel wrote:


Though people keep telling me that encounters only last 2 rounds. I'm probably doing something wrong.

It seems to depend on the group. In one of my groups, with four players, we just had four to six round fight at 17th level against opposition which didn't exactly challenge us to our limits, but kept disrupting us to good effect. That group is not exactly optimized, although we manage to do quite well (my bard buffing the other characters to the gills really helps a lot).

In the other group where I am the GM, I got six players but buff encounters by about 75% above what a four-player group would face. Nonetheless the players tend to rip through their high-level opposition in 1-3 rounds in every fight as soon as level 11 or 12 have passed.


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Quite honestly, you get that "OMG squicky" dynamic with every immortal character who dates someone who inevitably is younger than her/himself. So the best you can do is gloss over it, because you want those people to remain sexless for your comfort?


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MMCJawa wrote:
As far as Spiderman goes, it looks like we are getting married, family man Peter Parker, as well as Spider-Gwen and Miles Morales. So it's going to be a big buffet of Spiderman characters from different universes.

I would just want UU's female clone to survive the merging. Really liked her as a character.


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Kalshane wrote:
My concern about the merging of the two Universes is how much of the "dark and gritty Wasp-eating, drug addict mutants, jerks-in-costumes Ultimates" aspects are going to get ported over.

Well, Mark Millar seems to be not working for Marvel anymore, so a lot of those tendencies have gone away. Kyle and Yost still get work sometimes for them, so there is still is cause for concern.

The last two years have seen a pretty tame UU in terms of jackassery and lethality. I'd say they already took a little part of the over-the-top grittyness and a lot of the moral ambiguity and made it part of the 616 universe with their big storylines since Civil War, which is why the UU is pretty obsolete nowadays.

I think they won't do a full reboot. They are mostly going to finish the UU and situate some of the more interesting characters in the core 616 universe. I am crossing my fingers that Ultimate Peter Parker and his supporting cast will make it, but since Bendis will want to place his golden child, Miles Morales, firmly in the 616 universe, I sadly doubt it.

What really pisses me off is that apparently the rest of the multiverse also got killed off in the collateral of this big storyline.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Andy Ferguson wrote:

A carrying capacity of 9 is 30 pounds.

Celestial Plate is 25 lbs
2 sawtooth sabres is 4 lbs
1 belt of dex is 1 lb

Hopefully you never get fatigued. Or need any other gear.

If you can afford Celestial Plate, you can afford to give your caster buddy a level 1 Pearl of Power in exchange for them casting Ant Haul on you once a day.

Unless I missed a beat, Celestial Plate ain't exactly core material. It's from one of the Curse of the Crimson Throne modules, which was still written under 3.5 rules.


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Jiggy wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

"Murderhobo". No other term on this forum gets my hackles up like this one.

I already feel that gamers in general tend to verbally punch themselves in the face way too often. But this is one of those concepts which, if you'd explain it to anyone who is not a gamer, would just confirm every stereotype "normal" people have about gamers.

Aside from that, the concept of a "murderhobo" is disgusting and offensive. It's very probably just me, but when someone refers unironically to their character or group as "murderhobo(s)", I cringe in disgust.

I was following up until the point where you mentioned people referring to their own characters/parties as murderhobos. I thought the term was generally used by people pointing out a method of playing that they don't like.

Oh, no, some people unironically refer to their playstyle as "murderhobo'ing".


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"Murderhobo". No other term on this forum gets my hackles up like this one.

I already feel that gamers in general tend to verbally punch themselves in the face way too often. But this is one of those concepts which, if you'd explain it to anyone who is not a gamer, would just confirm every stereotype "normal" people have about gamers.

Aside from that, the concept of a "murderhobo" is disgusting and offensive. It's very probably just me, but when someone refers unironically to their character or group as "murderhobo(s)", I cringe in disgust.


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The entire AP took us a bit more than a year, with the group meeting each week for a 3-4 hour session.

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