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Alurad Sorizan

magnuskn's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 6,920 posts (6,922 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Alright, I think I got the basics of the Kineticist, although I'll have to read all the different talents in detail to see what I would want to play (although no danger of that, I am currently GM'ing two groups with many a month to go for both campaigns).

I'll say that putting nine very long and complex descriptions of class abilities (and some shorter ones) before you even get to see what all those wild talents and infusions and thingamajigs can do, made it definitely a chore to read through the class. It's doable, but it definitely is the most complex D20 class I ever read through and I've never had this problem with any other Paizo class before.

I guess that's a sign of its versatility, but, man. I'll be looking at the other classes throughout the next days, I hope they are less complicated. I hope that the Occultist really is the "Harry Dresden" type of class, which I remember a developer saying during the playtest.


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Alright, I think I got the basics of the class, although I'll have to read all the different talents in detail to see what I would want to play (although no danger of that, I am currently GM'ing two groups with many a month to go for both campaigns).

I'll say that putting nine very long and complex descriptions of class abilities (and some shorter ones) before you even get to see what all those wild talents and infusions and thingamajigs can do, made it definitely a chore to read through the class. It's doable, but it definitely is the most complex D20 class I ever read through and I've never had this problem with any other Paizo class before.

I guess that's a sign of its versatility, but, man. I'll be looking at the other classes throughout the next days, I hope they are less complicated. I hope that the Occultist really is the "Harry Dresden" type of class, which I remember a developer saying during the playtest.


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Well, I was talking specifically about AP's, because I know that Brandon is working on other stuff with Paizo. :)

Hrm, that adventure is a bit too low level to replace part four of Curse of the Crimson Throne, dammit. If I ever GM that AP again, I want the party to spend more time in the city, instead of outside of it.


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captain yesterday wrote:

In Brandon's defense, Shadows of Gallowspire was his first AP adventure and he was kind of boxed in as far as adversaries go and locations.

That said I bet if he redid it today, using everything he's learned since you would get a phenomenally creepy adventure :-)

Oh, hell yeah. Brandon did supremely good work on Shattered Star 6 and Reign of Winter 5. I'd wish he would write more adventure path modules. But I guess after writing the best single module Paizo has ever published, he wanted to go out on a high note. ;)


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drayen wrote:
That's not a viking AP.

True, but at least the entire module is set there.

Ridge wrote:

True, but Jade Regent seems about passing through as opposed to being chiefly focused on the Nordic. Then again I haven't played it, only heard about it so maybe I'm being unfair.

The AP itself is a travel AP from Avistan to Tian Xia. One module is entirely set in Kalsgard and surroundings.


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Freehold DM wrote:

Once again, i disagree.

Didn't care for jyhad, but dark age was a great jumping on point for me. I own almost all the dark age stuff, and found it to be quite successful for getting [personal bias and bad experiences] people with social skills who enjoy talking to others and do not actively try to scare people off from the game into the genre[/personal bias and bad experiences]

That mostly middle-aged dudes with big bellies and few social graces still play tabletop BattleTech is something I won't even try to dispute.

However, I didn't care for the Jyhad storyline on the basis of how the story just upended the cart by having a minor faction inexplicably getting a gigantic army out of nowhere and start chucking nuclear bombs at everyone (a big no-no in the BT universe). It was, once again, a "snap your suspension of disbelief like a dry twig" moment, just like with the half-way point of Prince of Havoc.

So, the developers chaining themselves to this storyline for future novels is very off-turning to me.

Also, I am still sour that they mean-spiritedly killed Omi Kurita.

As for Dark Age, eeeh... if I separate it from what really killed my love for BattleTech with the things I mentioned, it's okay. I thought the early focus on small scale stories and the Republic of the Sphere was a bad start, but in later books they really had some decent ideas, especially with the new Davion prince being insane. Katherine Steiner-Davion creating a child out of her own genetic material and her brothers... not so much. ^^


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Jade Regent has an entire module set in Kalsgard and surroundings.


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Gorbacz wrote:

I wouldn't discount magnuskn's experiences, mythic rules do kind of bubble up if used by a group of optimizers. A casual group might get a kick out of it, but more crunch-oriented players will quickly exploit the system.

Yes magunskn, that was me agreeing with you. You can stop cleaning your monitor right now.

However, mythic works perfectly as means of powering up monsters to present surprising challenges to non-mythic groups.

If mythic is used sparingly in a homebrewn campaign by the GM, it does exactly what Gorbacz said and is indeed a good tool to spice up encounters.

Mythic as used in Wrath of the Righteous is a disaster and not only for groups which optimize. The system would need significant nerfs to become playable.

Anyway, the good AP's:

Rise of the Runelords (revised) is, IMO, the best AP. It has a very decent mix of roleplaying and combat, an interesting story and keeps the party motivated throughout the entire AP.

Curse of the Crimson Throne is also an excellent AP, keeping the party in a single city throughout 2/3's of the AP. The trip outside the city could have been better and shorter, but it still works quite well.

Jade Regent is an excellent AP. It starts in Avistan and then progresses to Tian Xia. The middle modules are a bit weak, in that the third module is an interminable trip over the north pole (a feeling which seems to be intentional by the writer) and the fourth module has an excellent start, but the second half is a way too long dungeon with underpowered opposition (which can be remedied by replacing it with the Ruby Phoenix Tournament adventure, which many have done), but the last two modules make up for it. I would be very interested to see what Paizo would do with an AP all set in Tian Xia.

While I haven't run Shattered Star yet, I am very much looking forward to it, since the entire AP looks to be excellently done from my reading.

And, as I said before, Carrion Crown is a very competently written AP, brought down only by a too combat heavy last module and also that the main villain is a non-entity until the very last fight (which can be remedied by introducing him much earlier. I personally had him appear in the very first module and constantly mentioned him during the entire AP, although he only revealed himself as the bad guy at the end of module five).

People also say good things about Legacy of Fire, although you'd have to ask others about details.


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Brother Fen wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Yes, of course, ignore the advice of people who actually have experienced the problems those untested sub-systems caused in their campaigns, because "whining". Great idea. You ignore traffic rules, too, because other people "whined" that running a red light is a bad idea?

Carrion Crown is a solid AP, with an uninspired ending. The first five modules have a mix of investigation and combat, while the sixth module is combat from start to finish.

Reign of Winter is a travel AP where you visit ever increasingly exotic locations. Its modules therefore are pretty much disconnected from each other and modules three and four were not my cup of tea when I read them. Module six also is not that super interesting. Module five, however, is the single best AP module published by Paizo.

Shattered Star is a very solid dungeon-heavy AP, which tried to show that dungeons can also have things like diplomacy and roleplaying. It's on my list of AP's I want to GM one day.

I can't talk about Giantslayer, since I've only skimmed through the artwork, but apparently it also doesn't have any additional new mechanics.

Yes. Ignore the whining. Starting with you.

You are the kind of person who thinks that history is for losers, ain't ya?


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Namely mythic rules.


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I'll be honest, when I got the PDF yesterday evening, my eyes glazed over when trying to make sense of the Kineticist and after that I only skimmed through the book for the artwork and to read the list of spells (which look singularily useless for the non-psychic classes). I guess I'll take a new look later today, maybe have some actual opinions. But the new classes look waaaaay more complicated than what we got before, needlessly so.


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Well, it's worth a look. Since MechWarrior Tactics was cancelled, no turn-based game was in the works. I hope the AI is decent and that they finally try to use actual BattleTech rules.

Too bad that the writers effed up the fictional universe a decade or so ago. :-/ The minute Victor stepped on that tarmac back from the clan homeworlds, my suspension of disbelief snapped like dry twig. And that the new novels coming out soon will still be bound to the horrifically bad Jyhad storyline from Dark Age also prevents me from ever getting back into things.


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Yes, of course, ignore the advice of people who actually have experienced the problems those untested sub-systems caused in their campaigns, because "whining". Great idea. You ignore traffic rules, too, because other people "whined" that running a red light is a bad idea?

Carrion Crown is a solid AP, with an uninspired ending. The first five modules have a mix of investigation and combat, while the sixth module is combat from start to finish.

Reign of Winter is a travel AP where you visit ever increasingly exotic locations. Its modules therefore are pretty much disconnected from each other and modules three and four were not my cup of tea when I read them. Module six also is not that super interesting. Module five, however, is the single best AP module published by Paizo.

Shattered Star is a very solid dungeon-heavy AP, which tried to show that dungeons can also have things like diplomacy and roleplaying. It's on my list of AP's I want to GM one day.

I can't talk about Giantslayer, since I've only skimmed through the artwork, but apparently it also doesn't have any additional new mechanics.


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Melkiador wrote:
I believe your expectations may be unrealistic. Making a large rules book is a very error prone process. And I really doubt that your playing experience has been affected by many non-ACG errata.

In small ways, it has over the years. Situations like "No, you can't do this anymore, they erratae'd it" have come up multiple times.

And I know that it is better to errata than not, but it still makes me feel like I misinvested money in getting the first printings and now being stuck with them.


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CBDunkerson wrote:
Though... I now foresee disputes over whether this feat can be used with a light shield or only a buckler.

As far as the wording goes, clearly not. Which is really stupid, given how the iconic Swashbuckler uses a buckler (then again, Fencing Grace did not get nerfed...).


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Melkiador wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I am not made out of money and I find it quite frustrating that about every hardcover I own is partially invalidated by now.
What books besides the ACG are you referring to?

Every older hardcover non-setting book has received significant errata by now, even if it isn't as extensive as the ACG. Hence, all the first printings are inaccurate in many places. If you don't think that this is annoying, well, I can't change how you feel about things.


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Melkiador wrote:
Wszebor Uriev wrote:

Wow. With all the changes, my hardcopy of ACG is pretty much useless, since I now have to cross-reference the errata.

Honestly, this makes me think twice about purchasing upcoming hardbacks from Paizo until at least a year after they are out.

Not trying to be a jerk. The money is part of it, but its also the fact that I have something occupying my bookshelf that just isn't accurate.

I tend to have to wait to purchase books anyway, just because of a lack of funds, but the ACG was pretty clearly an outlier in Paizo's publishing history. Both Unchained and OA seem to be much higher in quality. So, please don't make grand sweeping gestures based on one badly crafted book.

Actually, being someone who always buys first printings and feeling like an extended playtester after one or more rounds of errata is a problem I also have and have heard mentioned around my two tables, too. It's coming to the point where I seriously think about just purchasing the PDF, printing it out and having it bound into a hardcover, until at least a second printing is available. I am not made out of money and I find it quite frustrating that about every hardcover I own is partially invalidated by now.


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voska66 wrote:
I don't think you'll see PF 2.0 coming any time soon. I think we may see a halt of PF RPG books coming out. Maybe focus on different genres like PF SciFi RPG. There is enough PF RPG content to feed the campaign setting for year. Pathfinder Online will also drive sales. I mean that's how I ended up playing pen/paper RPGs back in the day. Started with BBS MUDs on the Apple IIe.

We had some megathreads a few months back where people went back and forth on the issue. I am actually tired of discussing it, since some people have this weird belief that Paizo would never, ever betray them by bringing out PF 2.0, even if it meant that they'd unemploy themselves by doing so. So, I'll leave it with the small mention I made in the context of what Turin wrote. We'll see in a few years, anyway. GenCon this year would actually be the best time for Paizo to announce that they are working on PF 2.0, since they seem to have used up all the design space by now for new classes with Occult Adventures (even with the Vigilante).


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Yeah, the "new rules" churn is rivaling the late 3.5 WotC fast release schedule by now. It's again getting to the point that there are too many new rules to keep up and care.

It seems to be an indicator for me that PF 2.0 is coming soon.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
I think the arcanist change is because it's supposed to be a mix of wizard(int) and sorcerer(cha) and ended up being just int. Like dumping charisma to 7 like a wizard and still doing their thing wasn't what they wanted. They wanted it to be like the shaman where investing in Cha seems very rewarding.

Making it irrelevant if you had CHA 7-13 was not a good move, though. If we go by the official guidelines (like my GM does), you only get 15 points to buy a character. Putting 10 of those points into INT is a given (min-maxers probably will try for 17 points), so it is really not easy to at least get a 14 into CHA.

If you have a GM who routinely allows characters to be built with 20 points (like I do in my groups) or more, then the issue is of course not as obvious.

IMO, it probably should have been CHA bonus +1 uses per day, minimum one, so that putting a positive number into CHA would have had an effect before reaching CHA 14.


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
And an alignment restriction and a code of conduct which makes a lot of people unhappy to be in the same group as your character. Paladin is balanced out by the roleplaying aspect, which is much more restrictive than with any other class.
That is some sweet old school logic. Unfortunately (for you) and fortunately (for everyone else) Paizo doesn't embrace it. Although I could see it now: An archetype where fighters get cool new toys without having to give up anything. All they have to do is follow some roleplay restrictions. That's what many of the AD&D kits boiled down to. This has been a game design methodology that has for the most part fallen out of favour.

They still haven't phased out the Paladin with an "Unchained Paladin", so I'd say they are not completely abandoning the concept. I guess we'll have to wait for the next edition of Pathfinder to see if they'd do thing differently. Or maybe PF Unchained 2 something something.

And, by the way, trying to reduce this issue to "you vs. everyone else" is laughable. The mere existance of all those Paladin threads is a testament that the class has issues. They are, however, mostly in the roleplaying side of things rather than in the mechanics.

Or, better said, since the roleplaying side of things hugely favors the classes strengths (Paizo's adventure paths tend to favor evil opponents in most cases), the mechanical strengths of the class are magnified.

Anyway, this is getting way to OT for the actual topic at hand.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
You know what, I'll take your advice and do the same that you do to Gorbacz. We'll both be happier.

Excellent news.


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Scythia wrote:

I'll double your request: Gunslinger and Summoner.

Magus doesn't quite make the cut anymore.

The Paladin threads are there for reasons of roleplaying issues, however, which are a legitimate controversy regarding the class.

Anyway, I think I'll take Triune's advice and shut up about the topic. The mechanical flaws of the old version of the feat are there for everybody to see. I've yet to see a rebuttal which doesn't boil down to "it doesn't bother me, so there is no problem". One really cannot discuss rationally with such a viewpoint.


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PIXIE DUST wrote:
I wonder if people are forgetting Oradins are still a thing... sure its a 2 level dip but you also get smite...

And an alignment restriction and a code of conduct which makes a lot of people unhappy to be in the same group as your character. Paladin is balanced out by the roleplaying aspect, which is much more restrictive than with any other class.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Honestly though, oradins work better if you're dipping one level of oracle rather than 2 of paladin.

One level of lore Oracle is a (IMO way too powerful) common dip and would give you access to CHA to AC and Reflex saves, instead of DEX and also be a way to take the old Divine Protection.


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Covent wrote:

For bad design please see arithmancy or sacred geometry.

Feats like what I listed above are powerful not necessarily badly designed.

I like the idea of having different options for power level and not having all to play at the same level.

A feat which clearly does miles better than similarly themed feats (the benchmarks which are still Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes), to the point where it outweighs the benefits of a single one of those feats to the factor of x15 is terribly designed from a mechanical standpoint. Even if you weigh in that only a few classes can use the feat.

Rhedyn wrote:
Old DP was boring design. Of course in this game if you ever fail a save its time to pull out your phone and crush some candy.

Many years of game experience as a player and GM say otherwise. If you only crunch out characters which can never fail saves or your GM isn't capable of putting up opposition which can make you fail one, then something is going wrong with your group.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
It clearly is badly designed. Terribly, in fact.
Nope. You just didn't like it.

Whatever, dude.


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It clearly is badly designed. Terribly, in fact.


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born_of_fire wrote:

Every charisma based class? I was not aware that sorcerors, bards, bloodragers and skalds had mystery, domains or blessings class feature and the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells. In fact, I'm pretty sure a big issue with the feat was that it was really only useful to oracles and the occasional cleric, given its prerequisites.

This is not to say it was not an OP feat and that it should not have been nerfed. I saw the writing on the wall; I never selected it for any of the characters I created that qualified for it because it was obviously going to be changed in some way. However I don't think it should have been burned to the ground and relegated to the garbage pile. Histrionics like "it gave every charisma based class +2 to +11 to all saves!!!11!!!one!!!!111" when that is clearly not the case don't help us get a reasonable nerf.

I probably should have said "every charisma based class who was willing to invest one level of an appropiate class to qualify for it", but the point is the same. The feat was way too good, obviously so, and should never have survived even a first editing pass.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
And the devs can give that ability to anyone else they want, if they deem fit. Obviously, they did at first, and have since reconsidered. If it's not broken on the paladin, it's not broken on anyone else. The class is nowhere near as hard to play as you make it out to be.

A gazillion Paladin threads say differently. Find me another class which is equally as controversial.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
That's fine. I don't find passive bonuses to be overpowered. If you invest resources in your saves, you should be good at saves.

That's what Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes are for. If you can't see what a +5 to all saves with one feat (just putting out a random number, it can be a bit lower or much higher) does to game balance, then I can't help you.


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Okay, this is getting freaky. What the hell happened to Mikaze? I hope somebody has an idea (looking at the people who play with him) and can give us an update if he is still around and just really occupied. Or whatever else is going on.


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Of course Spell Perfection is really good... however, I seldomly include it in my builds for Sorcerers or Wizards or Arcanists, since the multiple prerequisites close off too many other avenues of building a character. Also, it comes online really late in the game, when balance already has been mostly smashed to smithereens.


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TOZ wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
forger03 wrote:
Divine Protetion was a decidedly fun and enjoyable power feat that worked great according to all those I know. Now it's... a feat I don't think anyone I know would ever bother taking. Including myself.

Hahahaha. Hah. No.

Worst designed feat ever. The people who were responsible for the original release should have worn hubcaps of shame until they fixed this. The fix may be a bit overzealous, but this feat should never have been published in the first place.

Hahahahahano. At least it actually DID something.

Yeah yeah, Prone Shooter, whatever. Bringing out a feat which accidentally does nothing is stupid, but I can see the developer and editor both overlooking that, because there are a gazillion rules.

Bringing out a feat which gives every charisma based class between +2 to +11 (or more, if you really twink it) to all saves is ridiculous. The Paladin is the only class to get it for a reason, because it very often is hard to play the class, due to the usual Paladin problems.


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forger03 wrote:
Divine Protetion was a decidedly fun and enjoyable power feat that worked great according to all those I know. Now it's... a feat I don't think anyone I know would ever bother taking. Including myself.

Hahahaha. Hah. No.

Worst designed feat ever. The people who were responsible for the original release should have worn hubcaps of shame until they fixed this. The fix may be a bit overzealous, but this feat should never have been published in the first place.


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Endoralis wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Man, so this is what it's like when Blizzard releases a WoW patch.
They even buffed Mages... just like a blizzard patch.. how odd.

Arcanists got nerfed a bit, so I don't know if that is right.


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Lord Snow wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
It was a really good movie. Solid from start to end, only the villain was pretty "eh". Marvel is perfecting their craft, I only hope they can keep it fresh, too. We got a long stretch of movies ahead until Infinity War 2.

Actually I think the villain was a step above most Marvel villains because he had (gasp) characterization. Self centered, immature, in love with himself. It's so much more than "bad guy, really!" which just about every bad guy except Loki has been so far. Ultron had the whole "evil Joss Whedon" vibe, I guess, too.

But still, that places Yellojacket in top 3 for me.

I don't know, I found his daddy issues with Hank Pym to be a pretty slim motivation to go the full out evil mwa-ha-ha route he went. Although it does point out that Hank Pym has bad judgement, because he chose that guy as his apprentice. ^^


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DM Beckett wrote:


Debatable. Divine Protection was actually a pretty good option for just about everyone that could qualify for it, but not terribly broken except for in one case. The Oracle was the only real exception, in which case it basically sky-rocked to stupidly amazing.

The new form is now pretty "meh". Something I'd probably only take with an Oracle now, and feels like it completely misses the point of existing. Wish they would have just made it where Oracles couldn't take it.

I'm sorry, man, but if a feat can easily have the value of three feats (i.e. 14 CHA, Divine Grace vs. Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will) and is still easy to push to being even better than that, it is overpowered. I have no idea how it survived the first editing pass and got into print the way it was.


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christos gurd wrote:
slashing grace boosted then subsequently nerfed. oi

Oh, wow, didn't see that one. Hm, that is going to make a few players unhappy in my group, given how many characters with Slashing Grace and Two-Weapon Fighting are running around there. I'll probably have to house-rule it.


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It was a really good movie. Solid from start to end, only the villain was pretty "eh". Marvel is perfecting their craft, I only hope they can keep it fresh, too. We got a long stretch of movies ahead until Infinity War 2.


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Yeah, my train of thought went in the direction of "Vroom vroom, here comes the nerf bus".

Which in the case of Divine Protection is a good thing, mind you.

Although I looked only at a few things (Arcanist and Swashbuckler changes, the Hunter pet using Skirmisher tricks), so my impression may be slanted. The Inspired Blade archetype for the Swashbuckler got a pretty substantial buff (threat range of Rapiers buffed to 14-20).


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The Steadfast Personality feat from the ACL should take care of your Will save worries. For Fortitude, just taking Great Fortitude should do it, since you already start out with a +1 from your attribute. Both saves of course will never be as good as Reflex save, but that is a problem every single good save class has to live with.


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Saw the movie a few days ago and I found it to be quite enjoyable. It's below Terminator 2, but above Terminator 3 and Terminator: Salvation. The time-travel stuff didn't bother me much, since time-travel stories have always been some of my favorites.

Arnold did good work, Khaleesi also was good and Jason Clarke and Jai Courtney were serviceable. The action was well choreographed. I would recommend seeing this one, if you can enjoy a movie with purple lasers and a few minor plot-holes.

The dude who released that second trailer should be fired, though. What a way to give too much info away.


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Spoony (maybe known to some here, he is an internet reviewer of games, movies and other things) has a show named Countermonkey, where he exposits about roleplaying and tries to give out advice and tell some stories.

In his latest episode, just uploaded yesterday, he recounts a tale which should be familiar to all who have played through or GM'ed Second Darkness. I got a big kick out of listening to his story and thought that maybe some people would be interested, too.

Hence, a link to the video: Countermonkey: Baboon!


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Black Dougal wrote:

So I wonder how boring Peace Talks is going to be as Harry has to be civil to everyone.

with luck he will use his superb polite and respectful diplomatic manner and defuse a tense negotiation session by getting Marcone to go to Burger King and bring back burgers and Coke.

Especially with the Mantle of the Winter Knight making him so much more diplomatic and easygoing!


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ChargingCavalier wrote:
Fantastic series, Ive read most of the books twice(except for the lastest one).

Thrice, at least, for me. Some of them more.


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necromental wrote:
I finally read the Skin Game (and liked it although final verdict comes after second reading), but I found one thing that immediately struck me as wrong. Anna Valmont (and the rest of the Churchmice), in Death Masks were recovering the Shroud for Marcone, while here it is said they were recovering it for Nicodemus (and then tried to extract more money or something). Did anyone else notice this, and what do you make of it?

Yeah, it's a continuity error. Nothing to be done about it now.

Also, the Gatekeeper would be all "No, you idiots, you have no idea who you are messing with". Winter could probably stomp every opposing force at will, if they were willing to relent their watch at the Gates for a few hours. Which they are not, happy to say.


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Name: Koya Mvashti
Race/Class: Human Cleric of Desna
Adventure: Forest of Spirits (The Ruby Phoenix Tournament)
Location: The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, semi-finals
Catalyst: Underestimating SEISHUKU! (also, re-build and buff overload on selfsame SEISHUKU! via GM)

The party, consisting of Koya (as a PC), a male Witch with melee aspirations, a Sohei Monk with a Naginata and a Magician Bard with lots of wands, is in the semi-final of the Ruby Phoenix Tournament. Having thoroughly trounced all opposition in the preceding rounds, they expected SEISHUKU!, the yellow Ninja with the NINJA! headband (much more Alchemist, afer a through rebuild), who was shooed in as a replacement for the disqualified opposition team into this semi-final, to be just a nuisance.

SEISHUKU!, who had been rebuilt from being an Alchemist 4, Ninja 8 into an Alchemist 11, Ninja 2, was buffed to all hell and, after throwing a stink bomb at the group in the first round, bombed Koya down from full HP to dead in one round with 93 fire damage. Also set her corpse on fire.

After a chagrined GM tuned down SEISHUKU! on the fly, to prevent the death of the rest of the shocked party, he was vanquished after, ahem, getting overconfident in his victory. He left the battlefield with his head held high.

Koya got reincarnated into a pretty half-orc and gained two negative levels, but a total of +3 to all her physical attributes. Not that much of a bad deal, after all.


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Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, Jon.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Quiet down, Crazy Steve. Your Batman disguise isn't fooling anyone.

F!#$ing rogues trying to muscle in on the Vigilante's turf...

Kinda surprised I am not the only one who watches Linkara.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alex Martin wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Hama wrote:
Quarians ARE quite unreasonable. They tried to exterminate a sentient species. They got curbstomped for that. And instead of trying diplomacy they just went around and planned to wipe out the geth for about 300 years. Very healthy.
not to mention that they actively lied about it.

I think part of the problem is that the history of the Geth/Quarian conflict comes out only much later in the series. When you spend most of ME1 with the Geth as one of your main villains and the Quarians portrayed as a broken people and you have empathetic Quarian NPC on your crew for the entire series, changing that viewpoint becomes a little more difficult. I liked Legion, but his story seems less about sympathy and more about utility to the greater plot. Turning that story around in what comes out as a big revelation in ME3 comes off as a little of a plot contrivance to me.

If your Babylon 5 watcher, the Quarian/Geth conflict reminds me of the Centari/Narn situation. It's easy to sympathize with Narn as the former slave race, but one of the central points was that both sides were headed for mutual annihilation.

Basically this, only with more plot contrivance. BioWare chose to suddenly play the Quarians as the bad guys in ME3 and make the Geth oh-so-innocent (after murdering billions of organics). I'm sorry, but when I can clearly see the puppet strings with which I am to be pulled, I stop believing in the story that they are telling.

No one is saying that the Quarians are not at fault, but the "Oh, the poor Geth!" narrative doesn't hold water when examined any closer than the plot of the game wants you to allow.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Shisumo wrote:
The key word there is "unrelenting." The Morning War may or may not have had fault on both sides, but the undeniable facts are that the geth stopped fighting and the quarians didn't. This is especially true in the actual scene where you have to make the choice, because Shepard and Tali both warn Gerrel that they are about to commit auto-genocide-by-geth if they keep up the attack, but none of the quarian ships break off - even when they start getting blown thoroughly out of the sky.

Lest we forget, the Geth control an entire sector of space. The Quarians (the 28 million that are left of them of the population of several billion) are stuck like cattle in their decaying space ships for several hundred years.

I'm sorry, but I can feel little sympathy for the Geth playing "Oh, we are so innocent!" given the facts that they committed genocide. I am also unhappy about the Quarians deciding to try to wipe out the Geth again, make no mistake. But I am just still hacked off at the hit piece BioWare did on the Quarians to make the Geth look good and the Quarians look bad (so that the decision wasn't automatical to support the Quarians, is my best guess). It was bad, one-sided storytelling.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Hama wrote:
Quarians ARE quite unreasonable. They tried to exterminate a sentient species. They got curbstomped for that. And instead of trying diplomacy they just went around and planned to wipe out the geth for about 300 years. Very healthy.

Well, I guess you gotta break a few billion innocent peoples eggs to make a sentient species likeable, after a faction of them is hellbent on wiping out every organic in the universe. Oh, and then they allied with the Reapers. Smooth.

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