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lemeres's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 3,235 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Tarantula wrote:
Avoron wrote:

How about a catfolk vivisectionist/beastmorph alchemist with some rogue levels?

Underhanded Rogue Talent + Sap Master Feat + Vicious Claws Rogue Talent + Eternal Potion Discovery (greater invisibility) + Pounce in a surprise round with lots of natural attacks = upwards of 1,700 damage if all attacks hit.
All it takes is something with a way to see invis (see invis/tremorsense/etc) or have any concealment for a lot of that damage to not apply.

Plus, I am pretty sure that build doesn't actually work due to this FAQ about vestigial arms.

Basically, 'no extra attacks' means 'no extra attacks'. I know the argument you made against that in that linked thread, but this FAQ does directly address that issue.....so yeah....vestigial arms are just curiosities used for things like shields and reloading guns it seems.

But beastmorph with bite/claw/claw/rake(2 claws) stills seems perfectly valid, and extremely powerful, particularly on a sneak attacking vivisectionist. Heck, that number of attacks would be strong by the standards of a full BAB character, let alone a 3/4 BAB one. Throw the rest of your build's tricks onto that, and you still have something fantastic.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Oakbreaker wrote:
Which also bothers me...why have CR 23+ monsters if you by RAW you don't go past 20?
Because by the time you are at that level a reasonably effective party is handling APL +3 & +4 encounters with, if not ease then at least significantly less difficulty than a starting level party would be handling APL & APL -1...

Plus, CR is a very iffy subject once you get around mid levels. Magic and good builds can change a lot of things, and just straight number progression doesn't count for a lot.


The idea of gunsmithing is that it allows gunslingers to arm themselves without relying on others since there is normally no place to buy ammo in the default setting. The price of ammo is due to the fact that, even when there are places to buy it, the prices are highly inflated since almost no one buys it.

Even if you tried to sell gunpowder, almost no one would buy it. It is highly dangerous, and usually only useful with weapons that no one has. And even if you did sell guns too, regular bows tend to end up being better, due to iteratives and feats that improve fire rate- for non-gunslingers, only pistols could be used with a lot of effort....and they are objectively worse compared to bows outside of 'they are right next to you distance'. Overall, it is a hard sell, even if they are powerful.

And trying to sell the gunpowder as an explosive is also problematic. While it is somewhat comparable to a fireball and requires less training to blow things up compared to learning wizardry or using a scroll, they are just plain more expensive than hiring a wizard to blow things up for you.

Overall, you need a much larger market for firearms and such before you could make that kind of money...and that market is in a different gun setting where gun stuff costs a lot less. I would only allow selling gunpowder at normal prices in the default setting after the use of diplomacy and on a situational basis (ie- oh, you have a wall that you need to blow up? Well luckily, I have a bag full of holding filled to the brim with gunpowder)


Ughbash wrote:
Monk damage caps at 2d10 (for a medium sized creature) so a 30th level monk does 2d10

Well, there are things you can do to change that, just not from monk damage dice scaling (I think).

The damage dice are dependant on size. So changing your size, or the size you are treated as (the strong jaw spell or that one monk prestige class are good examples), could make things silly.


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Pendagast wrote:

Vampire template is a CR +2.

So take a 3rd level party and introduce commoner 1 or warrior 1 vampires and you have a big load of problems on your hands.

They are "CR appropriate" monsters technically, but for a party of that level it's pretty hard to get through their Drs and other defenses, especially if they don't know they are vampires right away and/or don't have the time to prepare.

They need 5 or more hit dice to be a vampire though.

You could throw a vampire spawn though. It is basically a wight, but it gets some small buffs in return for vampire weaknesses, and trades in creating spawn for a dominate.

So that does seem rather close to 'level appropriate' for the rangers where players are desperate for things like weaknesses (heck, they are desperate for masterwork weapons and special material weapons at that range as well)

So yeah-maybe use vampire LITE instead?


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Well, that seems appropraite due to the fact that the thread title makes me think of a tag for a dating profile.
don't diss the 10th level succubus Sorcereress, she is extremely faithful and looking for a lifelong companion to help show her the light and allow her to experience things no evil cultist could.

And long walks on the beach.

Anyway, I am not dissing her, but simply adding some humor to the thread title. Although admittedly, it starts to sound creepy when you take the 'bind to his will' part in that light.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:

a 10th level succubus sorcerer. Exactly 18HD and well, has a challenge rating of 12

there are a lot of utility spells you could cram on a 10th level succubus. the profane gift can boost your intelligence

and you already have suggestion, charm monster, detect thoughts and vampiric touch at will at an adjusted caster level of 18th, permanent tongues and could load up on low level utility or blast spells you really can't be bothered to take at caster level 10th

Well, that seems appropraite due to the fact that the thread title makes me think of a tag for a dating profile.


On the Other Hand wrote:

Dracula was killed via a bowie knife to the heart, Bowie does not make silver blades, so virtually any metal could work in most mythos.

Silver is a thing in many myths because it was considered pure and a sign of holy purity, where as gold as clearly too tainted with greed.

Then again some vampires in myth didn't drink blood, so... good luck with fitting real world myths into PF. I mean look at zombies or general undead, headshots don't do anything to zombies, you need slashing weapons.

Of course, I am fairly sure there is also an association between gold and god....but I suppose that is why it is considered greedy. Desiring the power of god and all that.

Just accept that silver medal man. God is always going to get 1st place.

But yeah, depictions get weird.....like how I mentioned the 'ghost' thing. Yeah, in some religious practices, vampires are ghost/demon/things. Which gaseous form calls back to I guess. And you still have to track down the body in those cases since it serves as a kind of phylactery basically.

Oh, other lovely fact- in many traditions, staking in them in the heart has very little to do with directly killing them. No, because think about it- a stake is basically an oversized nail. The idea is that you nail that bugger down so you can get to the more complicated parts of chopping off the head/stuffing garlic cloves in the mouth/burning the corpse. Because who wants a headless vampire to attack you while you have your hand in its mouth and your buddy is busy grabbing the gas cans?

.....ok, I totally want that, but more as a 'life experience' thing rather than something that routinely happens on the job.


boring7 wrote:

I'd forgotten the whole "afraid of mirrors" thing, in fact I still don't remember much about it or where it's from. A point was made in another recent thread that real-world vampire mythology is basically all over the freakin' map from driving iron nails into ribs, bricks into mouths, or white rice on your doorstep to destroy, block, or otherwise affect vampires.

As for *using* their weaknesses, well once they are defined PCs will use them same as any other monster, because we're gamers and that's how we do. If the weaknesses are too useless to matter in a proper encounter then they probably weren't major weaknesses in the first place.

I still rather enjoyed John Carpenter's Vampires, and how a team of slayers worked by harpooning vampires in their dark lairs and dragging them out into the sunlight with mechanical winches.

As for me, I haven't actually fought that many vampires before, DMs seem to shy away from what is essentially an undead junkie (blood-addiction is usually described as drug-like) who has to hide inside a wooden box 50% of the time and has trouble with (according to legacy of cain) rainy nights.

Mirror thing is because old mirror making techniques used a lot of silver. Silver was regarded as a 'holy' metal, and as such it would be the bane of evil creatures.

Well, that is probably the 'no reflection' part (since they had no souls; were ghosts[?]), and the silver was just a bro for giving you a heads up. That could have possibly evolved into a 'fear of mirrors' thing since it revealed their true nature.

And yes, I realize how odd it is for vampires to have silver as a weakness. But that was how it worked. Heck, wooden stakes where the economy option- higher class ones would be made of Iron, and then Silver for the 'I'm rich and paranoid' end of the price spectrum.


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Rakshaka wrote:

This might seem kind of dumb to others, but here goes. I think you can grapple a creature in gaseous form. Here's the spell text:

** spoiler omitted **

No where does it say that the creature is immune to grapple. In fact, it would be weird for a 3rd level spell to accomplish what a 4th level spell does (Freedom of Movement) plus other benefits.

I'm not saying it makes sense, (and I'm gonna feel dumb if I am wrong), but I think you can grapple gaseous creatures... Unless the simple inclusion of the word 'insubstantial' (which isn't defined anywhere else in the CRB.. its not incorporeal) means otherwise.

Well, you could justify a 3rd level spell having a similar effect to a 4th level spell because it has a lot of problematic elements (ie- it makes spell casting VERY troublesome...and spellcasting is the main class feature of most of the classes that can use that spell). I'm not saying it is the only use...but mostly, I think the main use of the spell seems similar to how vampires use it. That and infiltration, at least.

Still, I am not going to argue 'insubstantial', but the 'can fit through small holes' part. That goes right past the part in escape artist about fitting in tight spaces (fitting into a place as big as your head, but not your shoulders by passing a DC 35 check and spending 1 minute). So I could see someone saying that they could just as easily ignore the grapple check.

Looking at it again though, it says you can't enter water while you are a mist. So that could mean they can't use the power underwater. That leaves hope- Tetori grabs vampire, barbarians goes long with tetori. Touch down (on water). Simple. Later, barbarian and tetori go back to the inn to party with their cheerleader groupies.


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Rakshaka wrote:

On a side note, has anyone ever grappled a vampire then jumped into moving water with them? I can't see it coming up much, but that would be a pretty neat way to take one out.

I spent like....15 minutes on my post debating whether I should mention that idea...

Unfortunately, don't vampires have gaseous form at will? Admittedly, if you found some way to keep him from doing that (likely some way to prevent any actions), then it would be simple as long as the water is nearby. (would halt undead work? Would dumping them into the lake count as 'attacking' them? Could you have someone with a 60 swim speed handle it and take them to a fatal depth before they can break the spell?)

If you find their coffin beforehand though, I like the idea of throwing it into the ocean. It is like throwing a lich's phylactery into the plane of positive energy- it is great for threats.


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One way to do this would be to throw an NPC in to do the lore based solution.

There are of course several ways to do such a thing. Is this some grizzled undead hunting ranger, with decades of experience and full class levels on par with the PC's? Or is it just some farm boy hireling who joined the party because he fiance has been kidnapped, and he just relies upon the stories his grandmother told him?

(cool thought- make the grandmother the grizzled undead hunter. I kind of want her to burst in, take out the vampire spawn the party is having trouble with, and then smack farm boy when he ask WTF? before lighting a cigar. )

Overall, if it is something 'other people do', and it doesn't waste the player's precious action economy, then they will appreciate it and enjoy the experience. And heck, after getting them used to the results, they might start doing it themselves (at the very least, they might get a familiar to do it or something instead of just spamming wand X)

Also, depending on level, you could make the mist just escape using basic terrain obstacles. IE- flying mist going over a ravine. Makes the guy annoying, which makes the players REALLY want to kill him. So they might be more willing to try using various methods to ease capture so they can give it a dunking in a river (Now that seems like one of the rules from the vampire template that gets over looked a lot)


Chess Pwn wrote:
This guy's big weakness is his will save. You have a +2 will save while raging at level 10. reflex is a +2 always. To help with this would be to grab superstition early and boost with human FCB, but then healing spells can't reach you either. But against physical fighters, yeah having DR/-20 is pretty awesome.

I won't say that superstition is absolutely necessary for a good will save. I know enough tricks to make a caster cleric jealous at early levels, and it at least beats out an uninvested wizard at high levels- versus saving against your team's spells when something blindsides you with no saves or something.

.... but yeah, making wisdom a dump stat is painful, a very good argument for superstition. Especially since your whole shtick is immortality (would hate to fall to a save or die, no?)


Reach alchemist that grabs the tentacle discovery. If it is his only natural attack, it will always be primary, and deals 1.5x str and power attack, making it rather effective for threatening adjacent squares.

Also, it has the grab property, which gives a +4 to grapple and free grapple on a hit. Combined with decent BAB, mutagens, and buffs (enlarge person is common), you can be a fairly decent grappler (it is possible to get both reach and the needed grapple feats by level 9; you can still do your shtick at level 2 though). At the very least, you are a character with tentacles that is highly effective at taking down magical girls (or guys- not judgin')


Arachnofiend wrote:
lemeres wrote:
THINGS
Another possibility would be a Slayer or Ranger of Sarenrae. Sarenrae's combat style lets you pick up Whirlwind Attack at 6th level, so you can do your Cornuriving Smash as an AoE.

...and the best way for them to get SLA is through a Sarenrae religion trait, light bringer, since that it is one of the few traits that give an SLA that scales off of level, rather than highest caster level obtained. So Sarenrae just give out cool stuff. There is a reason why she is one of the better gods for people to follow.

Anyway, point is- with all this, people are more likely to be mind controlled if you bash their heads in first. And that is a perfectly fine role for a melee character to have, and I love ACG for adding riving strike (plus mutagenic warrior- sorry..but WINGS- a lot of this is going onto a reach fighter I am thinking of anyway)


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Coriat wrote:
Claxon wrote:
It is a Save AND Suck ability, and there is a reason you don't find many abilities like that in the game because they are so strong.
You mean like how you can just intimidate someone, and give them a -2 to saves, attacks, ability checks, and skill checks, all at once, instead of one at a time?

Hmmmmm..... yes, I have now realized that the right answer is to make a melee character with both Riving Strike AND Cornugon Smash.

But this is just me spewing poison and trying to cause trouble. Still, it is an interesting option, no? Riving strike is basically a failed evil eye that applies to saves as far as spells are concerned. For one of the primary GM concerns of a evil eyed witch- pairing with SoS caster, this is basically the same result. Only instead of maintaining the effect with a cackle, you do it by giving the other side a crack on the head.

And putting cornugon smash on top of that is just mean, since it makes it a -4 to those saves. So....if you are looking for revenge (DON'T LOOK FOR REVENGE KIDS) this seems like a fairly decent way to do so while keeping your debuffer role.

Maybe put it on an inquisitor (that takes an arcane SLA so they can still qualify for arcane strike) so you can also do some spell caster stuff like heals and buffs (plus that sweet 1/2 level scaling bonus to intimidate)......AND I just ended up making a 9 level reach build as I typed that....I kinda want to make an inquisitor of Nethys now just because this makes wizards awesome....


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

You should be concerned with surviving extreme cold conditions. Either by cold weather gear and a survival check, cold resist, or endure elemants.

One thing EVERYone in the group should buy as starting gear is snow shoes and cold weather outfit.

If your cold resist is 6+ you will be fine to not have issues. Unscathed trait can boost the resist 5 up to 7.

That being said as a martial classes in this ap should have good fortitude and will saves.

Monks would do well since they have all good saves and dont need many items. Mid book 1 you get a sweet +2 to an ability score of your choice so it really helps the MAD stats of a monk.

So invulnerable rager barbarian would shine here, since they can just pick cold at level 3 and ignore cold weather like they had endure elements (plus get a bit of resistance to cold damage- not bad in a winter campaign). If nothing else, that at least means they save the party a spell slot on that and they don't have to worry if the caster gets incapacitated.

Obviously, the fact that they also get a lot of DR and are well..... the barbarian class, means that they are always useful. Tank, damage, even maneuvers depending on the rage powers.


Tayse wrote:

I was only considering scimitars for a relatively low feat investment for more damage potential; weapon finesse and dervish dance versus weapon finesse, weapon focus, slashing grace and exotic weapon proficiency to use the temple sword and more feats cuts into the number of teamwork feats the sohei could take

I do intend on using the sohei's bonus feats for mounted melee and making a flurry after a charge and with a combat trained mount also taking it's turn... And eventually the mount the monk and inquisitor all assaulting the enemy. My DM also agrees if both rats are mounted on the same creature (with adequate strength) it qualifies for swarming.

I am...honestly unsure if exotic weapon proficiency is needed. While sohei replaces the normal proficiencies, the temple sword was an add on for the monk (along with brass knuckles and the cestus, if I remember right) that did so by saying 'Monks are proficient with this' in the actual item description.

So you probably should be able to grab it without the extra feat. The item description itself should take precedence, since it doesn't care what kind of monk you are (it just says monk, instead of naming a class feature, like how furious weapons need rage, and it doesn't care if you are barbarian, cleric, ranger, or whatever).

Of course, just grabbing an agile weapon you could flurry with anyway would avoid all this feat business. Since monks can flurry with a single weapon, the investment is rather good (since agile is usually looked down upon sometimes due to prices of a normal TWF set). While some complain about item dependence...that is still one more teamwork feat. So this is just a keen vs. improved crit argument.

For some good finessable choices, you have: brass knuckles, the cestus (similar melee stats to a dagger; b or p), and daggers (sohei can flurry with daggers if they take throwing weapons for weapon training).


Tayse wrote:

My DM rules swarming is adjacent and that should make these guys be a lot of fun flanking and taking extra attacks.

My original class choices were a hunter and an inquisitor because of the free teamwork feats, but for some reason I don't like animal focus. I really want to like the hunter for these characters... While typing this I might have just talked myself into using the scared huntsmen inquisitor even though I don't like animal focus, but free feats.

The Sohei really appealed because pairing lookout with devoted guardian and a guardian mount should make a surprise round equal one less enemy and a light armored wolf mount with monk abilities amuses me.

As for weapons I was thinking focusing on Scimitars for slashing grace, combat reflexes, critical strikes, and teamwork feats

Wait, scimitars for the sohei too?

Temple swords might be the better option, since they can actually be flurried (well, without a ton of extra trouble from what I know at least). I know that it is a slight step down due to crit range, but it is still decent enough. Temple swords also benefit from sohei weapon training, and would also benefit from gloves of dueling if you can grab them.

Are you going to grab mounted skirmisher with the sohei's bonus feats? If so, flurry would be even more valuable since you get the mounted version of pounce (I heard some nasty and vague rumors on mounted combat due to FAQs and such though). Constantly getting your fake dull BAB and constantly getting off your fake TWF seems rather powerful.


What kind of sohei do you want to build?

Reach? High Power 2 hander? Unarmed? Finesse?

And are you going to go with archery style for the slayer, or TWF and just have the early game archery as a small back up? Of abandon that altogether and just grab something simple, like a 2 handed weapon.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Noble's Vigilant Pillbox has a serious ergonomic flaw (bolding mine):

"When activated, the white pearl detects poison in a 10-foot radius around the wearer, dulling to a dark gray if poison is within range. If swallowed, it grants the benefit of a delay poison spell."

AND

"The black pearl turns white if any invisible creature is within 10 feet of the wearer. If swallowed, it grants the benefits of see invisibility for 1 minute."

So if an invisible creature is around, the user has a big chance of swallowing the wrong pearl unless they memorized the locations or different sizes, and even then in the heat of the moment might get them mixed up. Plus, 10 feet isn't much range for warning of an invisible creature, especially since you probably can't be looking in your box all the time.

....because an invisible creature would be the best person to drug someone's drink.....

Heck, they could stash the supply of poison in someone's pocket later in order to frame them, which adds the just right kind of mayhem for assassination and politics.

The flaw also adds some fun, because the noble will then curse himself after taking the wrong pill, and he will then announce that 'someone suspicious and invisible is in the room' right after he turned invisible in front of everyone. Or he doesn't announce it, whatever, it doesn't change the outcome. People will immediately associate that noble with any invisible shenanigans that go on, and people would suspect that any protests from him was simply a poor ploy to throw off suspicion.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Well, that's up to the Game Master, of course, but the designer of that particular adventure series created a very humanocentric world and populated it accordingly. As he expressed it, "extremely unusual or monstrous races are likely to be troublesome. [...] It will be more difficult to infiltrate anything if you are travelling with a a minotaur, goblin, or serpent man for example. Tread carefully with these choices."
Ah, but while goblins would not be appropriate for the county in the setting, it can hardly be said that they are rare or uncommon in the world.

Huh? Sure it can. "Goblins are rare or uncommon in the world of Way of the Wicked." I just said it. It also happens to be true, as far as I can tell -- while there are some monstrous races that are rather common (and appear as recurring enemies of civilization), goblins don't get more than a passing mention.

Do not assume that Way of the Wicked is set in Golarion, or even that all Paizo products are set in Golarion. Paizo itself makes a very strong distinction between the Golarion setting and the Pathfinder ruleset. So the statement "Pathfinder is a game that is rather closely tied to its setting" does not ring true for me.

You never said that quote, that goblins are apparently rare in the WORLD, rather in the campaign's main country with its highly developed system of military and bureaucratic might (presumably- I don't know jack really). I just presumed that they were a plague in 'other places' based off of your statements so far and a vague memory of glancing over the player docs...like a year ago.

So alright, I am unfamiliar with this campaign, and I am allowing my knowledge of Golarion to bleed out too much. That still doesn't mean that there isn't room for creatures like tengu to exist (either that, or I am rooting for team evil since it is a bigger supporter of diversity. I'm sure hell could find a place for goblin orphanages, if only to use them as sweat shops).


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Avatar-1 wrote:

I can't believe this hasn't been said yet.

BARBARIAN! RAAAAGE!

BARBARIAN ACT OUT WITH VIOLENCE ON HIS INSECURITIES THAT COME FROM THE FACT THAT PEOPLE TAKE HIS IGNORANCE ON ANOTHER CULTURE AS BEING DUE TO A LACK OF INTELLIGENCE

And more specifically, the savage dirty trick power could be both thematic and highly effective, since he literally uses cheap tactic in order to force the enemy into submission. It would be rather interesting to role play in a campaign focused around nobility, knights, and question on the nature of 'honor' and 'combat'.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Any class. Classes do not come with attached personalities.
I would just find it hard to play a character struggling with their weakness, who could solo the rest of the party at a moments notice while naked.

Plus, it is thematic. A person's way of thinking often influences the fighting style they choose. Will you rush forward and take care of the problem immediately? Will you hold back and bide your time until the enemy attacks so you can counter attack? Will you use mobility, stealth, and guerrilla warfare to protect yourself and your resources while making the other side waste theirs?

Your lifestyle has a major effect. The way that a knight fights is completely different from how a trained assassin fights, even if they have similar levels of skills and physical capabilities. Even looking at the classic 4 man line up, a wizard will crush with power, a fighter will get in, down and dirty, a cleric will bolster defenses and prepare them for a fight, and a rogue will try to find a way around the problem in the first place.

So choosing a particular class/build/role can help to reinforce the nature of the character, and helps to better get you into the mood of roleplaying that character. While the exact details are extremely flexible, trying to find a fit is important.

Also, some people like to create their characters in a different fashion- I love to just let my imagination run wild with a fancy class feature, and trying to imagine a guy that would use it. I am currently in love with the mutagenic warrior since it is born with a very obvious "Why?" Fleshing out the details from that is part of the fun of making character for me.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Well, that's up to the Game Master, of course, but the designer of that particular adventure series created a very humanocentric world and populated it accordingly. As he expressed it, "extremely unusual or monstrous races are likely to be troublesome. [...] It will be more difficult to infiltrate anything if you are travelling with a a minotaur, goblin, or serpent man for example. Tread carefully with these choices."

Ah, but while goblins would not be appropriate for the county in the setting, it can hardly be said that they are rare or uncommon in the world. It is just that the 'LG' nation has taken care of its 'undesirables'. I will acknowledge that Tengu might be troublesome in this adventure though, due to the notorious reputation of theft and trickery associated with them, which would lead to prejudice in such a humongous culture (plus, he has a face that is fairly recognizable...although I want to see a master of disguise tengu just slipping into noble parties and wooing the ladies without people realizing he is a bird person, which is oddly doable with the minor race penalty)

And I understand this is a 3rd party product, and that it may well not have anything to due with the game setting...it is still a compatible product, and Pathfinder is a game that is rather closely tied to its setting with a lot of its options (such as anything that had to be renamed on d20pfsrd), so the question of 'does it count?' can get muddied sometimes.

But with the general set up and background of the race, if the GM acknowledges that they exist, then to they should have at least have at least some decent geographical spread to them, both due to their noted racial character and some of their racial abilities. Sure, GM can decide to change those same details, or provide some extenuating excuse why they don't spread, but that is between the GM and players.


JohnHawkins wrote:

Personally given that the game is set in an alternate Britain and specifically calls out Oriental classes as not fitting in I would not play a Tengu it seems silly to me you would be the only one on the island which may also cause problems by making you easy to identify, I would use that and it would give you a lot of problems. But I am old fashioned and if it fits your group go with it.

Class any class can work, with those stats, as you say you don't know what the others are playing you can't fit around them. I recommend looking at the campaign traits seeing which crime inspires you designing a character idea which committed that crime and seeing which class fits the concept.

It is a good chance to play a Necromancer/Assassin/devil summoner which would not fit into a normal good aligned character

Are tengu that rare though?

Ignoring the fact that 'animal people' are everywhere, and crows are similarly everywhere (we aren't talking about lion men here), tengu have a relatively large presence in the 'pirat-y' areas of the setting (so they are not just an 'foreign' thing as you judge the monk), and they are noted as being adaptive survivalists that can easily adopt the culture of wherever they happen to be (heck, they even have a racial trait focused on learning languages, which seems to add to that).

So even if there is not a native population of tengu (and honestly, part of me wants to imagine that there is in fact clans that stick the the back alleys and ghettos), the character would not have any more trouble than say...a half orc.


boring7 wrote:
Honestly, I'm surprised you weren't just killed outright by the guards themselves. My first thought as a dumb guard who might get executed for failing in his duty is, "I better prove my worth by killing this mofo, presenting his/her head to the captain, and begging for my life."

At the very least, I would have personally seen to the fact that their knee caps were not in proper order.

I mean, there is a large warhammer RIGHT THERE. Even if they think it was better to rely upon a superior's discretion, there are basic precautions for these kind of things. Ones that are far more reasonable in a world with healing magic.


Pendagast wrote:
Froth Maw wrote:

The hammer was in a supply bag that also contained walnuts. If they had searched me, that would've been my excuse. They didn't search me though, because I have a 22 bonus on bluff and the ability that lets you re-roll once a day. Even if they had taken away my weapons though, I was a tiefling, so I could've just bitten her throat out and gotten the extra strength and power attack bonuses from only having one natural attack.

As far as escaping goes, there's political unrest now that the queen is dead, and anyone who wants to be in charge has a proven assassin at their disposal. The captain of the guard is probably going to break me out so that I can kill the council that stepped up in the queens place.

Also, I'd have used a dagger, but I wanted the extra crit, strength and power attack damage from the hammer for the coup de grace.

Ok now I want a video of you doing ANYThing with walnuts with a hammer THAT size… anything other than obliterating them that is.

If I remember, this was an elf queen in the original thread, right?

I am not saying nothing about elves specifically, but I would imagine that any guard that routinely has to deal with nobles would likely be used to unreasonable demands.

Again, sometimes, the Queen asks for things NOW, and damn the logistical problems. What does she care if it is not the right kind of hammer for her midnight snack. Just deal with it.

...although yes, the fact that this hammer was large enough to 2 hand might be at least a bit troubling. How did you even conceal that thing? Even I am stretched if you try to get me to bull some excuse for something like that. Surprise renovation?

Well, at the very least, you could fake desperation and incompetence to give a non-suspicious reason for 'why do you have a huge hammer?'. Whether they stop you, for your own good with the honest intention of helping you, is another matter.


Dual cursed oracle that uses oracle's burden to force others down to his level.

He feels a sense of superiority seeing others crippled by the conditions he has learned not only to live with, but to use as advantages.

It helps that it is a CHA caster with 4+int skills, which means it can do well enough on face skills like bluff.


I think that the reason why it was melee>caster is because one can still be a good caster with mediocre stats as long as you get the bare minimum to cast your spells (because spells are awesome), but mediocre melee stats means you are doing little to nothing (at least without using a ton of buffs that take time and resources while they could be applied to other party members, even if it is just your own animal companion if you took animal domain).

It also helps that a lot of cleric spells are things like buffs, summons, and healing. So they can easily be less reliant on things like DCs.

Also, wizards HAVE to be powerful to some extent, because without battlefield control, debuffs, and other things to act as deterrents, then they are going to get their bums handed to them by anything that gets close (at least with traditional wisdom). Clerics, on the otherhand, have armor, weapons, and a decent enough BAB that the words 'grapple check' still means that dice need to be rolled.

But onto the main thing of the thread- how about that fiendish vessel archetype for tieflings? While it is very obviously evil, but it only messes with with channeling and a single domain. In return, you get a free improved familiar at level 3. And two of the options are the ones that are favorites for this kind of things: Imps and Quasits. If nothing else, this method saves you on a bunch of feats.


The Indescribable wrote:
Alleran wrote:
FuelDrop wrote:
Hammers are vital for chiseling the gunk out of the bottom of the chamber pot. Nothing else will match that chiseled clean look for expensive china.

I'd call that "unlikely" and give out a -5 on the Bluff check.

What I'd do would involve taking a scroll of Shadow Weapon in with me, using it to manifest a greatsword or similarly large weapon that will do the trick, stab the queen to death in her sleep, and then dismiss the spell (essentially getting rid of a big part of the evidence). If somebody catches me afterward, I just babble something about how an assassin with a shadowy sword murdered the queen and if they hurry, they can still catch him. Or something.

I rather like this approach, nothing but the truth, though it would seem you'd be covered in blood in a room with only one entrance and exit... not that that's a particular problem for some classes.

Prestidigitation- Because Life (and other People's deaths) is all about the little things.

As I mentioned in the assassination thread up right now- prestidigitation solves a lot of the small but vital details important for assassins and serial killers.

-Cleans up blood
-Can soil things...presumably with that same blood from before- perfect for framing people
-Can change the taste of food and drink in order to hide less subtle but highly effective poisons.
-Can heat or cool 1 lb of nonliving matter- leave a 'warm' finger laying about in order to make investigators think that the victim was alive just a while ago. Perfect for alibis.
-Change the color of clothes. This is useful for quick disguises
-And much, much more!

And the part I love is that anyone can get this spell using the trifler trait, which gives it 3/day. And since the spell lasts for an hour, that is actually relevant. Heck, since it is an SLA, it is better than the regular cantrip in some ways since it lacks verbal and somatic components.

Also- I would have used a shadow pick instead of a great sword. Because A.)X4 crit for the coup de grace and B.) Because it retains the same WTF of a hammer assassination.


Pendagast wrote:
she wanted something fixed right now… with a hammer, while she was sleeping, by the maid, who told the guards she went in there to clean the chamber pot…. with a hammer.

Hey, I never said it was a good plan. It wasn't even my plan. And it is not like I knew the plan that was actually used. I am just saying that I could spin enough to justify the successful bluff check.

Plus, how are the guards supposed to know for sure that the queen is asleep? The queen might be lying in bed, unable to sleep because she is worried about the wobbly table that the chamberpot rests on.

Or the maid might have decided that she wanted to grab the chamberpot for disposal while she was going on to do some other task (maybe the queen complained about a raised nail in the floor boards of the ballroom that caught her dress). Honestly, as someone that has done menial labor while being overloaded with tasks, I can imagine a ton of ways to justify having a hammer while going into the royal bedchambers.


Pendagast wrote:
The Indescribable wrote:
less suspicious than a dagger.

On a maid??

Daggers are every where, they use them as tools, they use them to eat with…in reality a dagger is about as suspicious as a multitool is on a workman today.

a maid carrying a hammer?
that would be odd, and certainly not as concealable as a knife.

I don't exactly know what they ask of maids in this kingdom. I could possibly see the excuse that the queen made the unreasonable demand to fix a wobbly table leg RIGHT NOW.

Who would you be to argue based off of job description?

Anyway, going back to unreasonable demands- they could well have the right to make sure you don't have a dagger. Ignoring the obvious security issue, there is the fact that you shouldn't be eating on the job (since it is palace supplies).


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Lithoel wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Well obviously we are talking about werebear nobility.
An idea too good not to include. I have a mental image Beorn from the Hobbit appearing from nowhere and tossing opera chairs and attackers every which way...

For some reason, I feel that they should be Russian. Like....old Imperial Russian.

Which, given the way that the setting goes, could also mean a connection to Irrisen and that of course spells witches. So you could have an old, stern werebear noble that gained his position via military command and his wife, a winter witch.

Just throwing random ideas out there. I liked the images this all brought up.


Ignoring the legality issues, what are your thoughts on switching to hand crossbows and maybe grabbing some bolt slinger levels for dex to damage?

I am focused on hand crossbows, since they actually have rules for using them in TWF (they act like light weapons). In comparison, regular bows are called out as having -4/-4 penalties due to the rules set up by bow nomad.

Admittedly, as far as attack rolls go, it is 6 of one and half dozen of the other if you multiclass. The lost fighter levels restricts higher level mutagens and makes you lose the last bit of weapon training. So that is a net of -1 to attack in the switch.... in return for dex to damage with bolt slinger (which makes you a very SAD class).

You will also lose feats...but hey, you only need 1 vestigial arm for reloading with crossbows. Plus, I am fairly sure that you won't need double slice either, since bolt slinger just gives the bonus straight without any offhand language


kestral287 wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

The extra arm is not dominant, so it cannot be used to aim a bow.

Kasathas have four arms and they STILL need to take a specific archetype to use two bows simultaneously.

The extra arm is never aiming a bow. It's drawing and knocking arrows. The idea behind it being legal, in fact, relies on the fact that the extra arm not being dominant. It's never being used to make its own attacks.

Also, can you name or link the archetype you speak of? I can't find it

Yeah, Bow Nomad is a weird side thing because Kasathas are weird side thing. Because they are aliens, which, while perfectly fine to have them, are simply not that prevalent in a Golarion based setting due to simple logistics and how far the GM has to stretch to get them.

Plus, I don't know about you, but I find the practice of using a bow and arrow tends to require effort from both arms, particularly the long bow, which is infamous for requiring a lifetime of specialized training and conditioning.

I am not here to get into a big argument about handedness and how it interacts with TWF and specialized, near crippled limbs. I was just putting out the problems you could face as a possibility, and gave options (which might be even more attractive than regular bows) that would avoid this issue. If nothing else, the argument that spawned in this thread should serve as an example of the potential arguments it might cause.

And even if those arguments are not exactly fair....you have to admit that a GM faced with a flying machine gun might turn towards them. Don't give him the ammo.


Secret Wizard wrote:

The extra arm is not dominant, so it cannot be used to aim a bow.

Kasathas have four arms and they STILL need to take a specific archetype to use two bows simultaneously.

And their arms do not come with the ton of clauses and restrictions.

Anyway, I still think a mutagenic warrior 15/ bolt ace 5 is stronger, without any of the rules concerns.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
This thread is not about the magical defenses of a noble bear. I am disappointed.

Well obviously we are talking about werebear nobility.

So maybe have someone ready with versatile weapon to make everyone's swords act like silver.

DominusMegadeus wrote:
ReddestBaron wrote:
Bonus question: Would there be an equivalent of a metal detector (i.e. a person/entity checking out the magical properties of all items brought into the hall)?
A 1st level wizard could be hired on the cheap to detect magic all night. You'll probably want some stronger muscle (and magic) to back him up if anyone actually does bring in magic items though.

Wizard? No...a bard. Have the night's entertainment dedicate a song (with a selection of music to help create a code system) to anyone suspicious.


I am unsure if it is possible to TWF using bows using vestigial arms. This is because of a a FAQ that pretty much said 'no extra attacks' means 'no extra attacks'. While there may be arguments about the exact nature of this (are bows technically listed as 2 handed weapons?), it is at least safe to say that there is table variation.

Of course, that doesn't mean that all hope is lost for this general style. Switching to crossbows, particularly the hand crossbow, could allow you to do TWF, and then just have a single vestigial hand for reloading. Taking a 5 level dip into the new bolt ace archetype for gunslingers would allow you to get Dex to damage with those crossbows... which is pretty sweet in itself, and could serve as reason enough to switch builds even if your table allows twin bows.

Oh, and thanks secret wizard. I was wondering what feats to take for the reach fighter that I was planning which suddenly sprouted wings after ACG came out.


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What is not to get? They like the game balance shown in the early game, but they don't want to do E6 since they also want to play around with the cooler late game abilities you find with some classes.

Essentially, the reason why people want to do low magic is due to the fact that they are more used to the low magic nature of early levels.

Plus, while magic can be cool, a lot of people are in love with sword. Or axes. spears. just beating guys down with their bare hands. ETC.

And you can't discount the fact that you need more ingenuity and roleplaying to pull off crazy stunts without magic. It is a MacGuyver vs. James Bond thing. Sure, James bond always has some gadget to solve a problem....but there is just a romance to using only gum, string, and a nail file in order to make a jet engine.


Claxon wrote:
Undone wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Eh...thats not how I read Fortuitous functioning but I could be wrong. In either case I would still strongly suggest waiting on Fortuitous until you have a +2 Furious Courageous weapon. Honestly Fortuitious it still not that good even if you do immediately get to make a second attack since it requires an enemy to provoke an AoO in the second place. I don't know how your games are, but rarely does the enemy in the games I play perform an action that provokes an AoO. You would be reliant on forcing them to provoke by using greater trip or something similar.

That is how fortuitous works. I'm really not sure where you got it functioning like bad combat reflexes.

Or I'm reliant on simply... using a reach weapon... and going for the guy at the front. All the others provoke on their way toward me.

It's really rare (Large tall and huge creatures) to see a creature not provoke from a reach weapon unless they cast.

Or unless they just 5ft step, or use acrobatics, or ignore you and attack someone else.

There is a rather simple solution for the 5ft step bit. Just take lunge.

Normally, with a reach weapon, you end your turn 10 ft away from the opponent. That means they only need to take a 5' step to get to you. So they get their full attack and they do not draw an AoO.

With lunge, enemies end up 15 ft away from you. They have to move 10 ft to attack. That usually means no full attack, and they draw an AoO. It also reduces the number of monsters that can use their natural reach to get to you. So for the most part, any creature that wants to fight you pretty much gets hit with those 2 AoOs.

As a bonus, lunge with a reach weapon lets you full attack anything in a 45 ft wide circle. Even when you can grab pounce, that still sounds rather nice.

Anyway, for the original question- furious seems like the first priority, since it improves you attack rolls (which would be important for your AoO iterative..thing) and it allows you get a false +3 at a +2 price (since this is PFS, and level limits vs. available wealth at those levels are a large concern). After that, fortuitous, and then courageous.

Oh, and claxton- while having both CaGM and fortuitous eats up AoOs, I would imagine that a barbarian could afford at least a the basic belt of physical perfection by level 10. As long as you find some way to boost DEX, you can probably keep it at usable levels, getting up to 6 AoOs per round.


claudekennilol wrote:
Thanks, I wasn't asking so I could disregard the handle animal checks but rather so I could just talk to him and have him understand.

I think you can safely use simple commands and recognizable nouns.

"Fetch my sword"- when you are ambushed while you left your weapons in the other room
"Find Cathy"- A known, and possibly introduced, npc that has gone mysteriously missing (bonus since you might have to introduce everyone to your wolf- which makes you into an annoying dog owner. Good roleplaying).
"Eat the fat one first"- ambush my the lazy and corrupt local lord.

Stuff like that seems like it would not be too much of a problem. Just don't give it complicated commands or directions.


There are like....3-4....different kinds of outsider, all across the alignment spectrum, whose whole shtick is killing immortals.

Essentially, sure, you can mass produce immortality, but you can expect a whole host of inevitables, daemons, and psychopomps bursting down your door to shut you down. Throw in devils (due to aforementioned reasons, plus the fact that people signing contracts with devils definitely want a way out), and you have an entire corner of the alignment spectrum from the after life aiming for you.

Of course, you could technically say this is the modus operundi of the Whispering Way. They just believe only a few people of power an ambition should retain their free will while going on forever. Also, they don't care as much about the 'not rotting' part.


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Emmanuel Nouvellon-Pugh wrote:
lorenlord wrote:
Emmanuel Nouvellon-Pugh wrote:
lorenlord wrote:
How about assassinating someone 4 levels higher than you and then 'cleaning' the area by burning the entire complex to the ground?
Witnesses?
"Disappeared under mysterious circumstances" (immolated in said fire)
Good job. The only way you would be caught would be some sort of magical inquiry by what you've written, and speak with dead would be impossible if skeletal heat fractures are severe.

It would be particularly effective if you made the fire look like an accident, making all those deaths look perfectly natural.

It would be even better if the cause of the fire was faked to make it look like someone there (some one low level enough that no one cares, like a janitor) was doing something suspicious. The fantasy equivalent of a meth lab explosion, basically. The purpose of this would be to give anyone nosy a false conclusion so they would stop looking.

Obviously that method would not be possible with every assassination...but hey that kind of job has always been extremely circumstantial.

I don't have any particular stories of my own, but I know one interesting trick- prestidigitation seems like the duct tape of murder.

Seriously, think about it- it can clean up blood, it can soil other things (presumably with that same blood, in order to shift blame), it can disguise the taste of poisoned food, it can heat or cool 1 lb of matter (leaving a 'warm' finger behind so people think the person was alive a short while ago). Heck, it can even change the color of your clothes for a quick disguise and create cheap trinkets to leave as calling cards.

This spell takes care of all the little details...and successfully getting away with murder is all about the little details.

And anyone can grab it with the trifler trait. Although that only gives 3/day....that means 3 hours of these kinds of tricks. And the trait gives it as an SLA (no verbal or somatic components).


Sohei monks. This is due to the fact that they can flurry in armor, and they have weapon training (with the proper name and says that it works like the fighter class feature)

Armor might not seem like that big a deal for offense, but it is actually the key towards making the sohei a power house. The armor is an item slot in its own right, and allows you to move your AC enhancement (which would usually come from bracers of armor) into a different slot

First, there is an armor property, brawling armor, which should be a key tip for any unarmed build that can use armor. This property gives a straight untyped +2 to attack and damage on unarmed strikes.

Now, weapon training and the newly opened hand slot also goes together nice. This is because it qualifies you (due to its wording and confirmation from related FAQs) for gloves of dueling, which gives another untyped +2 to attack and damage.

Altogether that is a +7 to attack and damage (which makes the fact that their unarmed damage dice do not scale- static bonuses are almost always more important than dice). A fighter might get a +8 (since they have armor and weapon trianing too), but this has more saves, skills, and other tricks (for example, sohei have the ability to always act in the surprise round, even if they are clueless, and they get 1/2 their level in initiative).

Other tricks- Grabbing a spell like ability from Qinggong (ki leech is cool if you are ok with evil- it is a 0 ki sla that you can spam constantly and then use to get ki back from kills) qualifies you for casting feats like arcane strike (so another +1-+5 damage for a swift action). Of course dragon style is the choice for raw numbers, although pummeling style gives it to you more reliably.


Cap. Darling wrote:

A witch and her unicorn friend. There is no need for leadership feat the unicorn dosent need a Rules explanation to follow a NPC.

I would just assign the powers i wanted the maiden to have to her and put her on a unicorn with what ever stats i think the two would need. No need to look in the books for the rules to support somthing you know how should work.

True, leadership is more of a feat for players to copy the powers of a GM to a limited extent.

NPCs do not have to follow those rules, and they do not need to follow wealth by level either. The rules are there to show the constraints on random adventurers. You are using messiahs here. They get to bend a few rules.


BadBird wrote:
Bigguyinblack wrote:
If I am reading Sohei correctly they are losing a lot of Monk abilities in exchange for wearing light armor, keeping their mount alive, being able to use martial weapons, and getting Weapon Training. Weapon Training and gloves of dueling is sweet but it doesn't seem worth it. Especially if I have no interest in mounted combat. What am I missing?
A top-shelf weapon that gets Ki Strike, a nice little boost to combat prowess, and a big boost to initiative are worth an awful lot when it's all said and done. The mount stuff is like the monk stuff you give up for Sohei... it's cool, it can be useful, but in the end it's a sideshow. Whether it's worth it is up to you.

The only thing you give up for mount stuff is your fast movement (you couldn't get that anyway if you wear armor) and scaling unarmed strike damage (most sohei focus on weapons, and even the unarmed ones still gets awesome static bonuses from weapon training and the possibility of brawling armor and dueling gloves, for up to a +7 to attack and damage rolls).

At least, this depends on how you read the bonus feat thing. It was not written very clearly. It says you 'can' pick mount feats, but it doesn't give any structure to that. And the features doesn't say it replaces normal bonus feats. I've never been able to find a good answer for that. Consult your GM, I guess. If you can still get your normal bonus feats, then great. If not...then yeah, that part is a bit meh.

Anyway, most of the rest of the bonus stuff is replaced with: 1/2 your level on initiative and always action in the surprise round (stunning fist), spending 1 ki for 1 round of scaling enhancement bonuses (slow fall and abundant step), and weapon training (purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon).

And as it has been said, the weapons that get weapon training also get that nice little ability that lets you ignore certain DR. So after level 7, silver and cold iron weapons are just annoyances to you.


BadBird wrote:

I would guess a Sohei with a Nodachi would probably be the most effective straightforward monk; full two handed power attack and weapon training and a dangerous, simple to enchant weapon. Temple Sword until you can use a Nodachi at 6, light armor until wisdom + Monk AC + Bracers is the better option (or just light armor forever if you don't really have much wisdom). Anyhow a Human with dual talent works pretty nice - 18STR, 16WIS is quite doable.

EDIT: grabbing Scorching Ray with Qinggong should make it possible to stick it in a spell storing weapon.

Eh, why bother with the temple sword? And someone else said that sohei aren't good before they can flurry with their nodachi and such?

Are you all forgetting that the sohei can run around with a 2 handed 1d10 18-20/x2 weapon? In the early game, isn't that one of the best things- period?

Actually, do you even want to flurry before level 6? Early on, the -2 penalty from the fake-TWF is a rather large number, and your fake full BAB doesn't make up for it. So why not just use a regular 2 handed style (with the mighty nodachi) and just hold back on flurry until after your fake full BAB catches up and you have the nice little bonus from weapon training?

Anyway, I will say that sohei are an option for better offense than defense, even if you are going unarmed. The light armor mostly just makes early game more survivable. A tricked out unarmored monk (even with only a modest 14 wis) eventually begins to win out in AC come mid levels. But sohei still may find it better to use armor because of the simple fact that it opens up an item slot. Since they get their AC enhancement from armor, they can then possibly grab gloves of dueling for an extra +2 to attack and damage with your weapon training (not sure whether those are practical in PFS though due to price/availability). And if you use unarmed strikes, then you definitely want to try to grab brawling armor, which also gives an untyped +2 to attack and damage.

EDIT- Bigguyinblack- reach is always a strong style, and always right next to whatever big 2 hander people are pushing. The only real difference is taht you grab combat reflexes. Maybe lunge too at level 9 (that feat is perfect for positioning enemies right outside of your reach after you attack- they ahve to spend a move action and draw an AoO to get to you. Worth the -2 AC in terms of defense. Also, lunge lets you full attack anything in a 45' wide circle)


Protoman wrote:
What level do you start off at? Starting as level 1 Daring Champion is pretty slow going compared to Inspired Blade. Don't get all the nice deeds til level 4. Also, Daring Champion doesn't get as many of the deeds that the swashbuckler does nor Charmed Life, so doesn't really benefit from the higher Cha. And your current stat lineup is only getting you only 1 Panache point in your pool. Which you'd need to spend just to parry or leave it untouched for precise strike. If doing Daring Champion, can lower Cha to a 10 or lower and still have 1 Panache point (that you can still increase with Extra Grit/Panache feat) and free up stats elsewhere. Maybe Int for Combat Expertise if you're still wanting it.

...but the daring champion gets the 'use cha for int on prereqs' thing that the swashbuckler gets.

I will not argue that int might be a wiser investment, with skill points and all. Although having a few panche to spare can be cool. For example, you can double your precise strike damage using one point, so that means that a daring champion can get up to 3 times their level on an attack if they also use their challenge.


I just want to say: avoid the dex to damage feats, if only to avoid taking weapon focus as a feat tax.

This is because, due to the fact that swaschbucklers/related archetypes rely on a 1handed/1weapon style. This means that the agile weapon property much better for them compared to most dex builds, since those often go the TWF route (which means they have to pay for 2 weapons).

With the focus shifted on only 1 weapon, the comparison between the property and the feat becomes much more like the improved critical/keen debate...except for the fact that both dex to damage options requires a feat tax.

Fencing grace is fantastic for inspired blades though, since they automatically get weapon focus.

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