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Dead bird

lemeres's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 5,012 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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does the stat set have to be that lop sided? You can easily go with this:

STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 9 CHA: 13

That just drops CHA and WIS by 1 point each. The CHA can be made up for at 4th level with the ability score increase. You can also switch your STR and DEX as desired for melee vs. ranged build. Overall, the stats are just a tiny bit lower than what I would use for a human bard.

Dwarves aren't terrible bards. A bit painful, but they can still do it well enough since the penalty is to a secondary stat, not a primary one. You are about as well off as an elf trying to be a front line melee class with their con penalty.

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...why wouldn't you be able to get power attack?

As long as you meet the prerequisites (13 str, +1 BAB), you can always get it.

And power attack doesn't care if you are using strength or dexterity really. It just does the extra damage, and x1.5 extra damage if you two hand.

BadBird wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Nodachi advocacy

Strength-based nodachi is a great build as well.

Crusader Cleric grants free Weapon Focus, which kind of makes up for the lost BAB.

Whether the scimitar becomes a Monk weapon is a GM call really; taken at face value, "as if it were a Monk weapon" means exactly that for Weapon Training purposes just as much as it means 'weapon with the Monk property'. Weapon Training being ruled out is a major downer, and a reason to consider an alternative like Monk of the Four Winds to eventually smoke stuff with Shaitan Style/Skin. Or Crusader1/ Unchained...

While being able to wear a mithril breastplate is nice, Wisdom can fairly easily become better as the Monk AC bonus scales. If you go Dual Talent and start with a 16WIS (more ki is always great anyhow), then by level 8 buying a +2WIS headband instead of a mithril breastplate ends up with the same AC. Unlike the breastplate, the wisdom AC will continue to increase with items and level, and you're adding the bonus to your CMD.

Still, if I was to reverse the logic of that argument, it would mean that absolutely no one other than the sohei can use crusader's flurry to make a weapon flurriable.

I can understand arguing that the feat makes it part of the monk weapon group...but arguing that it covers both the weapon group and the special weapon quality at the same time, two extremely different unrelated related mechanics (again, all the nonflurriable monk group weapons), without the feat ever making direct mention that it includes multiple meanings at the same time... yeah...that is a MAJOR stretch.

As such, it would mean that crusader's flurry simply puts the weapon into the weapon group, allowing the sohei to flurry with it when he gets the group.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


A couple other ridiculous weapons would be you carrying corpses on your back and flailing them at your enemies, or empty drinking bottles/tankards as throwing weapons.

"Can I get this kobold enchanted?

Yes, he counts as a one handed weapon, so I want impact. I think he is technically part of the flail group. Yes, I'll wait while you get your manager.

...trying to use charm person to get me to go away isn't going to work. I am expecting a discount now. "

...and yes, I am fairly sure a kobold would actually count as a one handed weapon. I've spent way too much time trying to find relative weapon size to living creatures. There are in fact core rules on how weapon sizes scale compared to creatures that use them (2 handed=same size as user; 1 handed=a size lower; light=a couple sizes lower. Or, in other words, for a medium character- greatsword=you; longsword=halfling; dagger=cat)

Gauss wrote:

zainale, no it wouldn't work. The stone familiar teaches the familiar the spells, it is not a replacement for the familiar.

It basically guarantees that you do not lose your spells if you have to replace your familiar.

And even if it did work, the stone familiar doesn't have rules for learning spells without a living familiar. Normal witch familiars can get spells by having your use a scroll. The stone familiar can only get them from other witch's familiars.

So unless there is another witch in your party, then you would be out of luck. In the hypothetical scenario that you could ever use a stone familiar as a failiar.

BadBird wrote:

A Monk with one level of Sarenrae Crusader Cleric in the right place can use Flurry of Blows with a Dervish Dance scimitar. Attack and damage from dexterity crossed with the ability to add uncapped dexterity AC to wisdom AC is very, very nice.

Since the scimitar has become a 'Monk' weapon, Sohei can add Weapon Training to it and allow the use of Gloves of Dueling, so that you're eventually getting a +3/+3 bonus with it as well.

As an odd added bonus, the Divine Favor castings you get can be made into +2/+2 with the Fate's Favored trait.

Sounds fairly convoluted...and I am pretty sure it doesn't actually work- monk weapon seems to refer to the monk weapon property, not the monk weapon group- there are weapons in the group you can't flurry with because they lack the property (jutte, tiger fork, and tri-pointed double edged sword, from an immediate search). So you probably won't get the weapon training with it.

And even if it did work that way, I think I'll still just take strength and a nodachi for tons and tons more damage (x1.5 power attack, same for strength during standard action attacks, d10 hit dice, maybe the impact property/lead blades to make the damage dice even better since it is a bit on the 'bastard sword' scale). Less work, greater damage, and I know it works.

And since this is a weapon build, I can just make up some of the difference in AC by just getting a mithral breastplate (which works for a lot of classes light rangers and slayers), since that counts as light armor for this stuff.

That is because just about any class can pick up a mithral breast plates just by taking the armor expert trait (reduces armor check penalty by 1; with mithral the ACP becomes 0, which means 0 penalties for not being proficient in medium armor).

The only reason a sohei wouldn't prefer a mithral breastplate is if they are unarmed, which means brawling armor (which I am...fairly sure can't go on mithral medium; it is shaky enough that I'd chalk it up to "table variation" and wouldn't rely on it myself, or advise others to rely on it).

Overall...if I wanted turtled stats and weakened damage, I would go with regular monk (or unchained).

EDIT: Also, divine favor is not quite as nice as it seems- while the damage is ok, the attack bonus is hampered by the fact that you are dipping into a 3/4 BAB class. That means that you only net a +1...and most of the time, you would net a -1 when you don't have the spell up. The spell works for clerics since they get enough spells to spam a level 1 spell, and the bonuses scale to the point that you are getting a huge buff. Not really worth too much as a dip, especially since you have to spend a standard action at the start of the fight for something minor in comparison (full clerics can eventually use quickened spell to remove that problem too). The extra damage is nice, but not worth the trade of -1 most of the time for +1 some of the time with a noticable action cost attached. I only accept this kind of trade from an archaeologist bard dip, since it also adds to saves/skills, it is a swift action from the get go, and a bit of investment means you can use it for almost every fight despite it being a dip.

p-sto wrote:
pauljathome wrote:

I think a fair bit of the ACG errata falls into this category. I suspect many people would agree with that statement (while, of course, disagreeing as to which changes :-) ).

For one example, Pummeling Style is still a very good feat. I wouldn't dream of changing it for a different feat despite the nerf

I won't say that they made Pummeling Style a bad feat but honestly I would have preferred it's previous incarnation or the errata version but make it applicable to weapons again (I know this was likely never the intention feat but I don't care). Honestly it's changes like this that cause me to fall into the crowd that cries martial caster disparity because it seems like they're needlessly nitpicking at things that shift the power curve in a fairly minor way and more than that the "mistakes" were changes I liked.

Getting back on track I'll state the obvious, unchained summoner.

I was one of the loudest opponents to 'pummeling punch with my greatsword'. The main problem was the crit rule.

The pummeling style crits were designed around 20/x2. If you use a keen 18-20, or a keen 19-20....your likelihood of critting with the whole full attack was eventually over 90%. Each and every time.

I hardly count this as a nerf though. It was more "You people are trying to do WHAT?!". The original wording was in no way unclear about its intended use.

For an actual nerf to this- I hear that the crit stuff doesn't work when you do pummeling charge anymore. Which is just clustershot and pseudo pounce for unarmed strikes (ie- the things unarmed strikes needed most of all). So boohoo.

Now then...for a nerf from this errata I support- the loss of precise strike for the magus. I know this reduces arcane deed to a flavor option now... but the original form gave the magus a TON of extra damage for little cost. It basically meant you could skip power attack and just pretend to be a Full BAB class (as well as a class with some of the best nova abilities, 6 spell levels, and two great saves).

It practically made the magus a better user of precise strike than he swashbuckler. That is gutting another class for one of its best class features and then using it to improve yourself when you are already a powerful class.

So it is kinda obvious that you shouldn't be allowed to go around using it whenever anymore. I might have just upped the cost of the deed to 2 arcane points...but still, it should not be something you could do constantly, since it was unbalancing

How about Teamwork feats?

Specifically, coordinated charge.

This feat allows you to charge as an immediate action when your teammate charges. That means you are most likely going to end up next to your target when your next turn starts, which means easy full attack. It is a pseudo pounce, with an extra attack, basically.

A tactician or blackjack archetype fighter would allow you to have your fighter give this teamwork feat to your barbarian back up without worrying 'can manimals learn...anything?'It also gives a nice clear goal- kill the fighter to stop him from allowing the brutes to zoom around the battlefield. That gives an excellent mechanical way of showing good leadership, which mechanically turns the fighter into a target.

There is no way for most characters to avoid the penalty to power attack. Double slice only affects damage from the strength mod, and power attack cares very, very little about your strength mod (and that is only relatively rare natural attack side rule when you get x1.5 str mod).

Monks and brawlers are cool though. They can even get x1.5 power attack if they 2 hand, even if they only get x1 str mod, since that is part of power attack's language.

So dip brawler, I guess? They flurry actually works like TWF, and counts as TWF for feats and upgrading the flurry. So 2 levels of brawler let you avoid the problem. And you can just go with a single weapon, if you want (having 2 is kind of wasteful, actually).

Not exactly useful for the samurai originally mentioned, but you can do something extremely effective with two different weapons- allow yourself to 2hand.

With a 1 handed wepaon and a cestus/gauntlet type weapon, you can do 2 handed attacks when you can't full attack (standard action attacks, charges, AoOs, etc.)

This tends to work best with rangers/slayers, since they can more easily do strength based TWF (which is useful sinc you are using 1 handed weapons).

You can do similar things with double weapons (which are more friendly with weapon focus)...but the gauntlet method means you don't need to get EWP for something decent.

I always preferred sohei to unchained.

It gets plenty of bonuses to damage with weapon training, and it opens up options for items which further your damage (gloves of dueling, brawling armor). It can about match the unchained monk in standard action attacks, and gets a lot of extra attack/damage which can surpass the unchained monk when flurrying.

And with pummeling charge, the number of standard action attacks drop by a lot.

The access to light armor doesn't necessarily make you AC better...but it simplifies it and makes it better at low levels. Unarmored monks get better AC...after you start factoring in boosting items which can work on two stats for AC, as well as the scaling bonus+the armbands for the enhancement bonus. Before you get magic items, sohei can have better AC with non-turtled stats, which mean you can more comfortably have a build suited for melee.

One of the best users of dirty trick would be the eldritch guardian fighter. This is because that archetype shares you combat feats with your familiar, which basically doubles your action economy with that stuff. With a mauler familiar, you get something with fairly good CMB, so that is perfectly viable.

With the two of you zipping around doing dirty tricks, you can apply two conditions in a round, and they each need their own move/standard action to remove.

And when you get dirty trick master? are basically just turning enemies off for the rest of the battle. In a single round.

Eldritch guardian fighter is also great since it also can work with some fairly decent teamwork feats. Besides the basics, it also has coordinated charge, which allows you to charge as an immediate action when your teammate charges. If your familiar charges, and your turn follow immediately end up right next to the enemy when your turn starts. That is basically a pseudo pounce with an extra attack thrown in.

Side benefit- you might confuse people and make them think you are a ranger running around with an animal companion. It just has that feel. At least until you get to level 7 and grow wings (this archetype stacks with mutagenic warrior, for a nice boost to attack, damage, and CMB, as well know...wings. Enough flight to last every fight from the get go. )

Learned duelist fighters are not exactly bad for 'one weapon/one handed'. Its weapon training replacement still appears to count for gloves of dueling (since it references light blade weapon group and weapon training class feature), and it gives a nice little bonus for damage on top of that when using the style (as well a scaling bonus to AC).

So with weapon training (+ extra damage), gloves of dueling, weapon specialization can do fairly well. You might also want to specialize in something like dirty trick though (and the archetype actually encourages decent INT since you can add it to vital strike damage- the same ability also gives your high crit rapier max damage if you crit with a vital strike)

Not sure if it is DPR olympics levels...but it seems like it can suffice. Especially if you compare it to swashbucklers made by certain optimizers that run away in fear of power attack/piranha strike...

DominusMegadeus wrote:

I never understood the Fighter/Rogue thing. Why do so many people all across the internet like that multiclass so much?

Ignoring my derail though, The Horizon Walker thing is pretty rad. One of the few who can do Dimensional Agility feats early and well.

I'd imagine in the older D&D 3.5 material, it was very advantageous.

Paizo specifically redesigned the classes so you are encouraged to stick with a single class for the most part. But in 3.5, dipping and prestige classes were a huge source of power (mostly because a lot of classes had their stuff fairly front loaded, and there were a lot of dead levels). Paizo also created arhcetypes so you would get a similar effect to multiclassing without ever leaving the class.

So why fighter rogue? Well, it might be an attempt to balance melee ability and skills. Fighter has full BAB, feats, proficiencies, and good hit dice. Rogues had a lot of class skills (in a system where you needed to spend 4 x the skill points on non class skills, mind you; class skills meant much more in that system), skill points, and a nice feature or two. In the environment of 3.5, this was a good move overall. Fighter would hardly miss a few levels (no weapon training and such) and rogues could sacrifice some of their total skill points.

It might be seen as a way of manufacturing something like the slayer class.

Arachnofiend wrote:
It isn't more useful for other classes, though. Who is using a light weapon and not TWF'ing that isn't a Swashbuckler? A Rogue, maybe, but the Rogue gets innate dex-to-damage now.

There are ways to make up for the 1 wepaon/1handed difference.

Many gishy classes could just use arcane strike, which scales well enough that you can pair it with power attack and fake the x1.5. That would just leave you a bit behind since your melee stat doesn't get a multiplier (and you might make up for that with a buff, or whatever your class does for extra damage).

As discussed earlier, it is hard for gishes to get the feats needed...unless you take a 1-2 level fighter dip (which might help round out your fort save, in the case of the bard)

As always dex builds typically have to look for outside sources of static damage boosts to keep up. Again, not a real change.

Endoralis wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Endoralis wrote:
Note there is a HUGE problem in the feat... One handed weapons dont use Dex to hit. And that it exists in its current form.
True, but swashbucklers can get dex to hit with one-handed piercing weapons. Since Slashing Grace lets you treat a longsword as a one-handed piercing weapon, you'd get dex to hit and damage when wielding a longsword.

So what I'm hearing is this is piazo's way of increasing pro-multiclassing views, they force you to have to take a level of Swashbuckler.. to do anything.

And even then you cant do it with more than one hand... And lord help you if you use your other hand to buckleswashes or.. pull out a potion.

Well, the feat started its life as a swashbuckler exclusive feat. So it makes sense it was designed around the swashbuckler's unique features.

Also, it started its life as a feat made to purely allow one handed weapons to be used with swashbuckler features. It was mostly a flavor feat so you could use long swords and such. It originally didn't have dex to damage, and that was just something tacked on because people complained it was a feat tax to use weapons that added nothing.

So this wasn't a dex to damage feat that was gimped and made to work only for swashbucklers, this was a swashbuckler feat that got caught up in the frothing rage and desire people had to make swashbuckler into a pouncing machine with pure dex and like a million attacks (sorry, just got caught up in one too many "it isn't my dream class so it must suck" threads).

The new language makes the feat mroe inclusive know...a feat that would have only ever been marginally useful to swashbuckler. You can use light weapons. You can use finesseable one handed weapons (aldori dueling sword, for example).

Anyway...what is with all these complaints about natural attacks? I NEVER though of natural attacks as something very useful for the kind of builds that use slashing grace (the 'one handed weapon only' version). Sure, if you have them, throw them out. But most natural attacks require you to take extremely concrete choices, trade offs, and use of resources to get. Since natural attacks were not that useful for the style...why bother?

Secane wrote:

Oh heck! I just found a site on viking weapons...

It seems like:

Swords - heirloom weapons that are rare and very expensive. Quote "the sword was the mark of a warrior in the Viking age"

Spears - Most common viking weapon, everyone uses them, cos they are very versatile. They can be thrown or "could be used for cutting, thrusting, or hewing". Used most commonly by peasants.

Axes - "The axe was often the choice of the poorest man in the Viking age.", but there are axes there ARE made for war and combat.
The site specifically stated they are the stereotype weapons, when people think vikings... lol

Also there seems to be axes of different lengths... the long ones look just like how I imagined Dwarven long axes look like...

Bows - used mainly for hunting, but also in war.

Damn... I sooo need to rethink what weapon to focus on... Its the vikings knows 5 different weapon groups and their warriors can use all of them...

It can be more complicated than that.

Axes tend to work great against the chain armor and such of the period. Axes are balanced to have heft and striking force, which makes them somewhat hammer-ish in practice. So even if you don't cut through, you are probably breaking some things.

Swords were often valued for thursting, which can do fairly lethal blows when you hit. Piercing weapons also have an advantage against the armor stated above. Swords balanced for piercing tend to be easier to parry and deflect though (since the stabby end is designed to be easy to maneuver).

So the difference could easily be choice...of course, OWNING a sword is still a status symbol. Even if your main weapon is a nice two handed ax, you might have a sword at your hip as a sign of HEY I CAN BUY ONE OF THESE, I'VE GOT MONEY AND POWER. For someone specifically hired to protect a king, that might be rather important, either personally or as a tradition.

Spears are always useful, no matter your social standing. Enough to be a primary weapon much of the time on the battlefield. But you would have something smaller and more wieldly when things got in close. So having a sword/ax back up would not exactly hurt.

qwerty1971 wrote:
so only humans can select Ulfen Guard as a PrC? The "Ulfen descent" pre-req does not apply to half elves or half orcs with one parent an Ulfen?

Just from a story perspective, I can see half orcs getting a pass, but half elves might be suspected to be sleeper agents for Kyonin

Think about it- elves live long enough that they can actually go through the process of having and raising a half elf purely for convoluted poltical strategies that might have dried up long ebfore it comes to bear. The span of time to raise a half elf is practically like....3 years to an elf. Relatively minor for long term intelligence planning.

He can shoot at anyone he is aware of.

Well, he can try. There is that whole '50% miss chance' thing, which seems like a 'problem'.

Anyway, you just need to figure out which square people are in (not sure abou the rules for finding people while blind- my first instinct is to use invisbility rules, and give people a +40 to stealth if they stay still). Or you could just ahve a sighted friend give you directions.

So are about as effective close up as at range...which means not at all. Blind fight can help with that usually...but unfortunately, that is melee only.

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Kudaku wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Additionally - virtually every good STR build will take Weapon Focus anyway.

If that's the case then there's no real reason for Slashing Grace to include WF as a prerequisite. People are gonna take it anyway, right?

The main reason Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace includes Weapon Focus is to delay most characters from taking it at level 1, which they'd be able to do if the prerequisite was only Weapon Finesse. Hence: Feat tax, and an annoying one at that. Non-human characters with classes that don't get bonus feats (like investigators) have to limp along for four full levels before they can pick it up at level 5, which is far too late for a baseline combat style.

Still, switching to pure dex on a point buy is almost like getting an extra 9 pts (kind of assuming that you go from 14+racial to 7; we all have our own assumptions that vary with build, so exact numbers are of course arbitrary). With the wide number of ways to boost carrying capacity, dumping strength is a theoritical disadvantage in that case.

In comparison, a strength build cannot entirely justify dumping dex, since it is deeply tied to ac, saves, intitiative, AoOs, etc. So even people in full plate tend to have 10-12 dex, and they see tangible benefits later on if they get a belt that gives +dex, while dex to damage could hardly care less about +str belts.

You cite the investigator, and that brings up a problem- removing strength entirely unduly benefits gish classes like that. A fighter/ranger/ whatever can only boost their dex up so much, and then they simply move onto minor secondary and teritary stats.

Meanwhile, removing str would remove the hard choices that gishes typically have to face- your investigator has just as many stats to worry about as the str based fighter, if not less (dex/con/int vs str/dex/con/maybe wis for the all important will saves that gish class never worry about since they usually have good will). Gishes have casting stats are just as important as their melee stat, so they can more effectively use those free up points in the point buy. This just increases the caster/martial disparity, since those that cover both roles have no ahrd choices.

Overall- if your damage is limping early on...then don't dump strength. Actually invest in it, like how a str based gish in light armor would invest in dex. This has been the age old answer- just get a bit of strength, then you have at least a few points of damage before you get dex to damage. Either that, or dip some fighter for feats. These are old, old solutions for the problem you are facing.

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Malvos wrote:
Strength doesn't need any of those 3 feats.

And strength does carrying capacity. Which arguably, is an extremely minor concern, with muleback cords, bags of holding, and ant haul lasting 2 hours/level.

Dex does AC, intiative, and reflex saves. Also, there are more useful skills tht use dex than str (minor concern- until you get later on, the difference is usually small, and can be made up through tools and such)

Strength's main draw is that it is the simple method of doing attack and damage. It doesn't have very much after that, since that was its entire purpose originally.

If you want to rework the system so you can cut out stats, you have to pay the price. Simple as that.

Nefreet wrote:
Yeah, no more Bite/Claw/Claw for your Small Cat companion.

Well, it is more like it uses the bite/claw/claw combo like it always did.

Remember, slashing grace, up until the errata, only worked on one handed weapons. So no natural attacks. So nothing has really changed there.

And since natural attack builds often end up like TWF builds, it makes sense to restrict it to (just to stay consistent, at least).

And since the original slashing grace didn't mesh well with natural attack builds origiinally anyway, it is not like any character concepts died from this. In fact, since slashing grace works based off of your weapon focus, it would never play well with 'take whatever you can get' style of natural attacks (maybe with that one human feat that shares specific feats with other weapons in that weapon group? But since humans are bare with natural attacks, I think that would be a half orc only thing- and even then, you would need a VERY wonky build since you need 4th level fighter, and fighters don't give natural attacks out, so you need another class like ranger for at least a dip)

Voss wrote:
It is already a 3 feat tax. Why would you hope for a four feat tax? Especially when the fourth feat is explicitly to unlock the default the earlier tax specifically denied you?

A three feat chain you can get at level 1 with the right build/dips. So it is hardly that taxing.

Milo v3 wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

Uh... Brawler? Both the base class and archetype varieties. As well as the Sohei Monk.

Oh yay, light armour. /End sarcasm/

I want an unarmed character in real armour.

Or mithral medium armor. Like a lot of classes use.

If you don't have any special rules forbiding light armor, then pretty much anyone can use a mithral breastplate- and without needing medium armor profiency for it.

Just use armor expert- it reduces armor check penalty to 0 for a mithral breastplate, which removes any negative effects of not being proficient in your armor.

In the end, that leaves brawler with good AC with its scaling bonus and the sohei...well, I am not using that archetype to tank, I use it for the ton of extra attack/damage options (and I might go with actual light armor just to get brawling armor- +2 attack/damage over +2 ac, basically). Armor for sohei is more simplification and allowing you to survive early on without turtling up your stats.

Kalindlara wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:

My fighter (brawler) wore heavy armor. I'd give that archetype a look...
Doesn't that archetype only have One ability that even affects unarmed, and all that does is a weapon training for close weapons at a faster rate?
Faster rate and higher bonus... but, correct. (Still far better than the unarmed fighter archetype.)

Directly, pretty much little else for unarmed

Indirectly, it is a lockdown master, allowing you to make stand still fairly powerful both in its bonus and ability to use it against...most forms of movement trying to escape you (due to the appropriately named no escape ability).

So making sure enemies can't get away is nice for getting full attacks off at least, which is usually fairly important for the TWF heavy unarmed builds. While pummeling charge can somewhat solve mobility issues, it actually got changed with this errata- from what I've been told, when you use it for a charge, it is no longer gets that stupid good critical rules anymore. So locking an enemy down does help you out a lot.

Personal note- if the crit stuff had hypothetically been removed entirely from pummeling style with this errata, I would not miss it much. Too much of a distraction from the feats' real appeal- clustershot and mobility to solve the main problems of unarmed builds. That alone is enough to make them optimal choices.

The kobold I was most proud of was RICK ROCKHEAD, ARCHAEOLOGIST!

The basic idea was to pump up archaeologist's luck so it is a near constant battle buff so you can have...a mediocre strength build.

Which is saying a lot for a kobold, no?

So just using a modest cha, fate's favored, and lingering performance (and maybe that one society trait for extra rounds), you can use luck for every fight. And since that turns on at level 1, you can do that, and then go into a different melee class as you main thing.

Anyway, here are the stats most racial:
STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 8 WIS: 7 CHA: 12

The name comes from a backstory reflecting the dump stats- he was caught in a tunnel collapse along with some of his tribe members. He decided to try to save them all by head butting the fall boulders... only the thing is... only one end of the tunnel was closed off. Everyone else left the other open side while he knocked himself unconscious. (the class choice came from the fact that he could never remember where the traps were, so he relied on luck to escape the various traps he fell into)

just go evangelist. That prestige class continues all the class features from one of your classes (1 level delay) and it brings nice bonuses too.

At level 10 (roughly level 15), you get a nice little number of uses of a transformation ability that gives you fairly good bonuses, plus one of a selection of abilities. This includes a natural attak (and a limb to put it on). Just grab a sting.

I know, long wait, but 3 natural attack dominate until level 10 for a full BAB class. You are 3/4 BAB and you have access to 4 natural attacks, and you have divine favor to make them more than good enough. So you will be fine.

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Cyrad wrote:
Why didn't they just say you can't wield a weapon in your off-hand? Isn't that what they intended, that you can only wield one weapon with this feat? Why must they beat around the bush when they write these things? If the intent is clear, then it becomes much easier for people to judge edge cases.

They tried that. With dervish dance.

But just do a search for 'dervish dance unarmed strike' and you can see how well that worked out for them when they just said 'can't have anything in the offhand'.

And those threads tried to twist it so that dervish dance gives dex to damage with the unarmed strikes too.

Writing for table top games can be a tricky business. Trying to be direct and 'obvious' can sometimes leave you massively open to the weirdest arguments possible ("I use pummeling strike to punch with a greatsword"). I'd imagine designers get weird and paranoid sometimes... and us denizens of the rules forums don't exactly help.

Not saying this was handled well given those circumstances. It doesn't excuse being sloppy, but it can explain it, at least.

Overall, you get enough evo points for a nice few extra abilities on an animal companion that might have already been fairly strong.

And to be honest- I was always kind of unsure whether animal focus was actually worth it. While the skill bonuses are fine (a bunch of extra perception), the things like enhancement bonuses seemed...meh. They don't stack with belts, and their main use seems to be saving money by letting you buy a worse belt (just getting a +6 con belt, and letting an animal focus give you + str).

Of course, I might simply be misunderstanding animal focus. Is there some major advantage I missed?

LoneKnave wrote:
Whelp, there goes the whip magus. even precise strike got essentially removed.

Admittedly, that did give the magus damage on par with power attack without any attack penalties. It virtually made you full BAB (as well as a class with powerful nova, 6 levels of spells, and two great saves).

And since magus had that fake TWF (which swashbuckler worked very hard to avoid with its precise strike), it kinda meant it used that deed better than the class it originally came from. And it would also get parry/riposte.

So it would end up gutting the most notable parts of swashbuckler, and then give itself a straight upgrade.

And overall: I wouldn't say that Paizo hates dex, but it realizes that it should have a cost for all the benefits of making your primary attack/damage stat into the stat that does AC, initiative, and refle saves. That is why dex to damage usually has a noticable cost, particularly when used for TWF (which is one of the main users of dex to damage that is not swashbuckler).

Agile weapons are expensive for two weapons (but affordable for 1- good for swashbucklers wanting to save feats). Dervish dance trie to forbid TWF. And while rogue and that swash archetype give it straight, those are 3-4 levels in (so too big for an easy dip).

Fencing grace and slashing grace (original) tried to be low cost (you can get it as a level 1 human fighter- easy enough dip for most builds) while avoiding dex damage twf by making it painful- since you are using 1 handed weapons, that is another -2 to attack.

This version of slashing grace tries to answer the obvious question "I can dex an ax but not a dagger?" while sticking to the 'no cheap TWF' principle. Just looking at the feat, it might seem odd, but it makes sense in the larger context of the publishing history and their design philosophy.

So, while the methods here are wonky (I won't deny that), the general intention seems fair enough. The real debate here is 'how much should twf-friend dex damage cost?' can do this...but should you?

Your monkey friend will be using simply plinking away without using their stats on damage. There is not really a way to pass ranged dex to damage onto your familiar since it usually comes from class features. So...

Imbicatus wrote:
Guns aren't that great without gunslinger or trench fighter backing them up. A Eldritch Guardian archer with a familiar with a bow is much scarier than a gun wielder.

Eldritch guardian can be crazy powerful, but that is when you know what your advantages are and leverage them well. You get near doubled the action economy with your combat feats and you can use many teamwork feats (including a pseudo pounce option). So things like maneuver builds work a lot better (dirty trick builds get near broken at level 11 with dirty trick master, since you can cripple an enemy with nausated in a single turn, making it impossible for them to remove the dirty trick themselves.).

Just getting a second set of hands for straight raw damage attacks...can be decent...but not great.

My idea of using primal companion hutner as a watered down synthesist pretty much died with the errata, since you got a fixed number of evo points that were much lower. C'est la vie.

It still works well in its original context- picking out a few select evos to boost your animal companion's abilities.

That seriously puts a hamper on a variety of ideas (using it as a more balanced synthesist, for example), but no, it isn't completely useless.

This mostly comes from the fact that you aren't working from scratch, like with actual eidolons. You are working with animals who have body aprts which would require costly evos to replicate on an eidolon.

So you can easily add on a variety of useful evos. Have your tiger sprout wing at level 8. Have your wolf grow claws and pounce at level 1. ETC ETC.

Snowblind wrote:

You are making a full attack/flurry at the end of your charge, so Pummeling style still give's you it's benefits.

It's benefits are now just Clustered Shots for punching instead of some monster crit nonsense.

Ah, sorry, 3 hours of sleep.

Well then, that makes it evne more of a must have. The main problems with unarmed builds were that they were TWF builds that were even harder to enhance.

Thus, they exemplified TWF problems- severe weakness to DR and a heavy reliance on full attacks for decent damage.

Pummeling style fixed the DR by making it cluster shot, and the pseudo pounce fixed everything else. That does not appear to have changed at all, and those are why the feats are generally optimal for most unarmed builds

The crit thing was just gravy, and it was annoying since it was the main sticking point in the argument about using weapons with the style (other know...the obvious intention in the feat's language, and how an extremely minor bit of phrasing caused a whole fiasco). I was one of the people most ardently arguing against that train of thought since I found that a fighter with kukri could crit like...94% of the time with the twisted version. That crit stuff was very clearly balanced around an 20/x2 crit range. Even with improved critical, it was at least a coin flip.

So is not that a loss, overall. And again, you can make your crit fishing into a meta-game threat against your GM, forcing enemies flee since they would not want to full attack you and stick around for a return pummeling strike.

Well, the change to the arcane deed was rather expected.

With precise strike's extra damage, you could basically just throw out power attack/piranha strike and pretend your class was near full BAB (as well as a class with 6 levels of spells, decent saves, and amazing nova ability). In fact, precise strike was even better for magus than swashbuckler since it had built in pseudo TWF with spell strike/combat.

I makes arcane deed into another flavor thing mostly...but still, you were lifting the best and most distinctive class features of another class at level 3, and using them better than that class. So largely? This was likely meant to be a nothing option, and then they nerfed it when they realize the monster they made.

Lets see...pummeling charge was somewhat nerfed since it no longer does a pummeling strike at the end of the charge, but instead it does your regular full attack/flurry.

That means no insane crits at the end of charges, and you are not simply BLASTING through DR with the charge. But considering the fact that you are getting a pseudo pounce (and you don't need something like dimensional dervish using up ki points)...fair trade. Still a general must have, overall.

Also, it means enemies will run scared from you since you can still do pummeling style as a normal full attack in all its DR blasting and crit fishing glory. And when they run, you can just get a pummeling charge on them instead. were using a manufactured weapon with pummeling style, weren't you...

Eh, I just suppose this is like the the colorful stripes on bees- a sign that they are dangerous and you should never go near them.

If it is a pummeling style thing, then no, it is not dreaded. Not in the least.

I might give this a +2 as a property at best. Maybe a +1. It does basic flaming, and has a decent enough effect, but rather restricted.

So add that onto whatever enhancement bonus the weapon has, and that should give you an idea of generl level it should be placed at.

Kalindlara wrote:

It's an extremely gray area, but the argument could be made that you can't take the trait with Adopted, since you don't meet the subracial prerequisite.

I don't know that I (or anyone else) would rule this way - especially for Enlightened Warrior, which I think should be more readily available anyway - but the argument could be made.

So... those half-orcs, right? Always teaching their feline children to grow giant tusks...

Don't forget raising them to be barbarians that use beast totem to grow claws on their feet.

Unfortunately, that tribe got wiped out by the mighty lord FAQ. I hear their remnants tried to become alchemists with extra limbs.

Wrath wrote:

Man, even in this thread about other threads people are attacking folks whom don't believe exactly what you do. Pushing people out, going to retro clones or other editions. Such are the reasons I stopped arguing and just play.

If you push away the opinions of others, you can't have constructive discussion. Constructive discussion is great. Argument not so much, especially in a public forum through the safety screen of the internet.



Korak The Boisterous wrote:
Nah, Luna's just an awakened animal

True, I wouldn't say her hp, bab, natural armor, or skill ranks scale in any way.

Except for that one...episode?...where there was a guy she liked, and she did the thing. ...ok, so it has been a couple decades...

Anyway, general point- she does not really get to a consistant level that would keep her relevant in fights. She is more an awakened animal optimized for Profession (nanny). A skill point, skill focus, a class skill (perhaps via a triat that gives a +1), decent wisdom and int for knowledge checks too.

Just a note- with arcane deed, rapier is one of the premium weapons for both dex and str builds.

Arcane deed can get your precise strike from swashbuckler. That deed was balanced to put swashbuckler on par with other full BAB characters. On a magus, it basically matches power attack in terms of extra damage, but it doesn't incur an attack penalty. Soo just going with that and a nice piercing weapon seems ideal.

So even if you go str, you would only miss out on 1/2 str (which would only be what? 1-2 point since you have so many important stats?) for a ton of accuracy. Just take arcane strike, and you pretty much made up for the difference (and open up the path for riving strike, which lets you lay on debuffs to help other casters- very valuable for hexcrafters who might have already thrown out an evil eye).

Dex builds can possibly get away with scimitars and other 1 handed weapons, but that can be harder to build around. It is easier just to use fencing grace, since you might not end up crowded around level 3.

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graystone wrote:

Exploration, gems, legends is Quindiovatos, so LN or LE monk works fine.

As to "restrict your backstory to 'I was raised by some semi divine creature'" it's closer to "restricted to 'raised by a human' as Scion of Humanity is a thing and that means they "can pass for human without using the Disguise skill." I don't find it very limiting.

As to a wasted trait, myself I find the expanded alignments well worth it. N and NG fits MANY more of my concepts than any L one.

"I was raise by a human that was secretly by a human that was secretly part angel/vampire/werewolf/wizard who knew kung-fu and taught me in the ways of animes and sparkle sparkles."

You still need to put the "I inherited super specialness from [x]" on your character sheet. While that can be ok at times, "having" to do that for your character build

But I may just have a deep, deep born hatred for the adopted trait after seeing dozens upon dozens of threads going on about catfolk barbarians raised in the art of growing foot long teeth by half orcs. Appearantly, there are more catfolk raised by half orcs than catfolk raised by other catfolk. Of course, this bitterness comes from the twisted and heated arguments about "claws on feet" that is thankfully dead due to FAQ now.

So overall, do not expect me to be flexible or sympathetic when it comes to any adopted shennanigans. Even when I understand that, it doesn't change my opinion on how this is typically used (minmaxing; most do not reach for this trait unless they want something). We all have our sticking points. I hope you can understand and overlook my bitterness for a bit.

graystone wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

but then i have to worship some guy with rapier as his favored weapon

Cayden Cailean CG [NG for monk with adopted(Enlightened Warrior)]

Besmara CN [N for monk with adopted(Enlightened Warrior)]
Arazni NE (LE for monk)
Zura CE
Count Ranalc CN (N for monk with adopted(Enlightened Warrior)]
Skrymir CG (NG for monk with adopted[Enlightened Warrior])
Hastur CE
Quindiovatos LE (LE or LN for monk)

So only two that do not need you to waste a trait and restrict your backstory to 'I was raised by some semi divine creature'.

And if you aren't a drinker or traitorous madman, even with the restricted backstory, you only have Skrymir (which means you are a guy raised by a divine creature and you also worship a god usually reserved for giants'.)

And you are doing all this to your backstory so you can optimize and get the one specific weapon you want (whem you could get a scimitar without jumping through all these hoops by just worshipping sarenrae....and scimitars are mechanically better since you can 2 hand them, and there are various dex to damage options if that is your 'thing'). So overall, this often ends up twisted both mechanically and thematically, no?

Rynjin wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

but then i have to worship some guy with rapier as his favored weapon

Cayden Cailean's a cool dude.

...who is a bit "too much" for most lawful people, such as monks.

I know there are options to get around this, but it is still something to consider. It is that disparity between optimization and what people might actually have.

This could be as jarring as a ton of people worshipping the dwarven goddess of marriage back in the days where an SLA qualified you for arcane strike (the alluring trait gives your level as caster level, which makes it perfect for that feat).

(random side note for personal thoughts- since my mind went to common optimization combos while writing this, just a justification for a couple:
-paladins with fey foundling: that could be interesting, since it could make paladin orders into some weird mystical organization that only uses fairy touched children. It could be nice world building.
- wizard/magus with magic lineage: well, they were raised by casters, not hard to see that influence
-half elf summoners: that could be interesting it their "Two-ness" made them well suited to getting that first bond with otherworldly creatures)

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Bandw2 wrote:
lemeres wrote:

How about we make a subforum for these threads and banish relocate them all there.

This idea totally worked in Arkham City, right? Just walling off part of the city, and putting all the criminals there. It totally worked out and wasn't complete chaos, right?

As a side note, mods will not go to this new subforum because they values their lives and sanitybecause they believe in self governing and independence.

okay but they need to unlock all the locked threads that go there.

Can we unlock the cages filled with rabid wolves a the same time? I bet those wolves have a lot of thought provoking ideas on the topic.

My Self wrote:
Original Monk or Unchained?

Both, I do believe.

Brawler does specifically give you TWF feats though, and you can take later feats normally to advance your flurry. So brawler is fairly dip friendly, easily flowing into ranger or slayer.

And waiting until level 6 is not too bad. You are 2 handing at early levels- that is one of the better moves really.

Waiting until after you get weapon training, BAB, and such to counteract the -2 penalty is fine.

Other notes about your suggested build-
-Eldritch heritage does not work. You cannot use wild blooded for that feat (that bloodline is a perfect example of why- the wildblooded version trades both the first level power and the arcana; the feat does not give you an arcana, so you do not ahve the thing to trade for it). There is the animal ally feat though, which just need one extra feat and no need for 13 cha. So fair trade.

- not sure if this has come up, but just mentioning it- lances only gives extra damage on the first hit of a charge. If you use mounted skirmisher, every other hit is normal. Still a fairly big boost to damage though, and pretty much worth it.

How about we make a subforum for these threads and banish relocate them all there.

This idea totally worked in Arkham City, right? Just walling off part of the city, and putting all the criminals there. It totally worked out and wasn't complete chaos, right?

As a side note, mods will not go to this new subforum because they values their lives and sanitybecause they believe in self governing and independence.

Snowblind wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:

Core fighter makes a great NPC combatant class...

The archetypes are what make it unique. Rynjin made this point very well. I'm looking forward to the Sensate.

Just for the sake of discussion, which archetypes make it unique?

Looking at the d20pfsrd page, I see Lore Warden, Mutation Warrior, Eldritch Guardian, and...Martial Master seems kinda interesting. Apparently there might be an occult archetype to add to that list. That's about it. AFAIK most of the other archetypes sit between "bland and only marginally better than a stock fighter while forcing a lot more specialization" and "terrible".

-Brawler-lockdown MASTER with its combo of abilities, no one escapes, no one casts spells when in the range of his backhan- technically possible with other fighters with a fighter specific fear, but this archetype has a large boost to stand still. Lore warden can fill the maneuver, but still nowhere as good with concentration debuffs.

But yes, this is the "so you are eyeing a feat chain?" class. The fact that most of its abilities are a bit vacuous and can be traded out is kind of an advantage- you are not restricted to any particular concept of a warrior, even if you stay a vanilla fight. It is meant to be a blank sheet of paper (and an admittedly limited pallet of colors to paint it with)

But lets compare this to swashbuckler- it is hard to talk about a NON-DEX swashbuckler, right? But the actual class's abilities hardly tie it to dex at all (it is just very, very dex friendly). And because of its actual abilities, it actually removes a lot of the need for a dex build (it encourages sword and board and gives a scaling bonus to AC, so that is out; its only good save is reflex; it gives pretty good bonuses to intiative). About the only solid justification to go dex over str I could find was AoOs, and even that is a bit 'meh'.

But its flavor and the expectations of the players tie it completely to dex, even when it is not built that way.

It might also come up when dealing with a couple specific creatures too, since they are more often flavor driven.

Andrazku are demons born from those that abused women, and they cannot stand working under a female. Which means a -10 to your CHA check when you summon and bargain with the things (unless you inflate their ego and basically beg them for help. Yeah, that is part of their entry- just do a bluff check with a bonus since the fools want to believe you are begging).

Admittedly, that example is just a big dumb CR 5 demon with a couple "" SLAs and abilities. So it is not too big a loss, I suppose, since you can always find better beat sticks. I mostly cited it since there are all those flavor influenced rules when you summon outsiders, which made it a good example.

Overall though, gender is usually not a rules issue. You have to go looking for random side material that was written almost purely for flavor in order to find anything with solid mechanics.

Not specifically, as far as I a aware.

Admittedly, that is kind of a plus. You can go vanilla druid, and still have the option to turn into an eagle, air elemental, or something when you need to. Or perhaps a cat, for stealth scenarios where you should just become something small and inconspicuous. Or just stick with the earth elemental for earth glide.

Goliath druid ahs slightly more restricted options in return for the ability to turn into giants. You are stronger, but you lose a lot of utility since you have to pick the big powerful creatures. And while there are fliers, I am pretty sure they are all fairly poor at it.

So this is power/ease of combat vs greater utility.

Not entirely sure how that ties in the the 'kami-like' druid mentioned in the title.

So, I will try to combine that with the desire for weapon use- why not earth elementals? (specifically try to look like rough cut ji-zo statues)

It is a bit less user friendly (takes a while to get a decent size, you need large weapons and armor rather than just letting your usual ones scale up), but it is possible to use weapons as an elemental.

Humanoid shaped elementals can use weapons. So, while you might need a reference or two if this is PFS (mostly look at elemental subtype and the transmutation rules), it does seem possible.

So, what are the advantages of the earth elemental over goliath druids? Well, I picked earth elementals because they have the best strength bonus and natural armor out of the elemental forms- perfect for a nice scimitar or spear build (spears hit like greatswords when large). Also, they have earth glide, which is a plus (you might want the druid's cave domain for tremorsense though).

Just remember- by the time you get a good earth elemental form you can stick with, you can wildshape all day. With hands and a voice, there is little reason not to just think "Yeah, I am just an earth elemental now" and go all day like that (and even plan your main equipment around that). So it is not quite as huge a problem as you might think...mostly an annoyance.

But yeah, goliath druid is more user friendly, both due to the fact that your equipment grows with your size (since you are turning into a humanoid) and because it doesn't require you to cite specific side rules to use normally in PFS.

Secret Wizard wrote:

Being tied to Unarmed Strike is as much of a benefit as it is a liability. You can't talk like it's all downside.

Compare it to any UAS archetype. Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy (extremely playable), Iroran Paladin (playable enough, UAS-focus is not the issue of the archetype).

Anyway, my opinion remains the same.

If it was merely melee, that would be entirely true.

But spells sent through spellstrike use your weapon's crit range (but always do x2). That is one of the things that seperates them from damage focused caster made using wizards.

Your basic intensified shocking grasp does a max of 10d6 damage. Doubling that result can mean a lot, and a lucky shot can, at times, make short work of a BBEG, even before you get to the rest of your full attack.

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