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Dead bird

lemeres's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 3,116 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Nicos wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
we need a +Strength/+Dexterity Race with a Charisma Penalty and a +Strength/+Constitution Race with a Charisma penalty so we have decent martial races besides human because the human bonus feat is an advantage no race can compete with.
Eh, the +5 to all saves against spells and SLA for dwarf disagrees with you.

And the alternate racial trait that gives +2 to will for half elves against anything also disagrees with you.

What? It is basically the same as iron will, and you can take iron will on top of it. That is about the equivalent of a feat. 12 wis/8 cha, and maybe a will save trait, and suddenly you make the wis based cleric look bad at early levels, and always leave room for the uninvested wizard to look bad at higher levels. With most martials, you only have to patch up their will saves for them to be effective.

But yeah, Paizo mostly seems obsessed with +Dex/+CHA/-WIS. I suppose it is fair enough. A bonus to most classes' dump stat allows you to dump it without becoming a neanderthal, the bonus to many classes' secondary stat with dex means you can skimp on points and still end up decently, and the penalty is not so bad when you saved up points in other places. It is a nice flexible set for anything that doesn't focus on wis.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
Flyers is a good idea, though a little difficult since your allies could be caught in the blastzone. Still with only a radius of 10ft, it would still be effective.

Yeah, again, it is not entirely practical for adventurers, since they usually either stumble upon their targets, or their targets track them down.

Much easier if you plan ahead, know the location, and can stay at a safe distance. With the flying summon idea, this would likely be based on you standing on a rooftop while it spreads death on the streets delow.

Oh, how about towershields with draps over them? Turn the tower shield into cover, and then when the enemy approaches, have a readied action to remove the cloth. I am...fairly sure that you could stay safe if the explosion happens around cover.


Dropping flyers. Dozens and dozens of flyers. Cover the entire area is flyers.

Unless I am missing something about how they work as traps, they still function on the ground. 50% chance they land face down (double side?)

Throw in enough flyers, and the place turns into a minefield. Their own eyes are their enemies, and their allies are their enemies as well (thus they may well separate- throw in intimidation/bluff/diplomacy to shake things up?)

Maybe have the flyers dropped by some kind of intelligent, flying summon. Celestial owl looks good enough.

One thing that you could do to mess them up is to deliver the flyers in waves. That way, if they try to avoid it by looking up....they get flyers right on top of their face. The only way for them to insure they don't activate anything is to close their eyes.....and then the rogues with instructions on how to not blow up comes in and starts sneak attackin' EVURYBODI.

Is all this practical? Probably not for adventurers (who face threats all the time, and getting this many explosive runes takes time). I'll admit, I came up with this idea as the modus operundi of a terrorist style organization. Good way to kill a king though (it at least causes enough chaos that his knights might be less of a problem)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

I'm not sure I'd give a dragon armor for the reason of them submitting to an armorsmith for fitting. Sure - technically they could make it themselves - but would they? And would they burn the skills on it? You might as well give them a greatsword to take advantage of their massive BAB and have their nat attacks sans claws as secondary swings.

I have and would give bigger dragons bracers of armor though.

Well, I would imagine that there are dragons with various hobbies just like every other intelligent creature (particularly ones that live hundreds of years).

You just need 1 dragon armorer in a region with decent enough relations and neutrality to set up every dragon with armor (in return for a bit of their horde, of course). Since a lot of dragons can act like spell casters, they can maintain their own darn armor, so it could be a piece that is 100 years old (which means each dragon only has to decide once to buy into a fad)

Similar things could happen with less intelligent (although still barely sentient) races such as ogres if they simply decide 'Man, those last squishies were tough. And their big knives hurt... maybe I should wear some of those shinies like they did?' and have them grab a blacksmith as hostage (and heck, this sound like a whole quest in itself- "Save the master blacksmith before he is forced to arm all the ogres in the Snaggletooth mountains")

Also, I somewhat question whether a dragon's equipment should count towards the wealth that players get from it. It is both too large, and designed for a body that is nothing like the players. Heck, I would say that it would not even fit animal companions right. So to the players, that dragon armor looks like just a big hunk of scrap that made the fight hard.

Anyway, for how prevalent optimized equipment would be somewhat depends on their lifestyle. Joe-Smoe-Smog that only goes out to occasionally raze a small farm and eat the livestock will not wear armor, since he doesn't expect resistance. He is basically the guy that goes to the store in sweat pants. Now, LORD GARGOYLE, RULER OF THE BLACK DRAGONS, who has waged war against the neighboring red dragon clans while maintaining his position with an iron fist (claw?) might just be inclined to wear armor since he often fights against creatures that are serious martial threats to himself.

Just ask yourself- is this creature's the position the same as a commoner's in his society? Most commoners do not go out in armor unless they are suddenly drafted for some big war. Is this the village idiot of dragons? Or is this a noble with means, power, and a need for some insurance.


Claxon wrote:
Why not just wear bracers of armor? Between the class AC bonus, Wisdom to AC bonus, and bracers of armor you should have a pretty decent AC.

Well, that decent AC should definitely be prefaced with the words 'eventually'. If you do not turn into a total turtle (all dex/wis, no room for str or not dumping the other mental stats), then it is painful. Armor gives easier AC at early levels, and lets you survive with a strength based build.

Admittedly, looking at the math, once you start getting equipment and such, an armored sohei would actually not end up with better than a well equipped unarmored monk. As you said, 2 stats, AC bonus, and something to get enhancement bonuses in make a difference (since buying a +2 WIS headband and a +2 DEX belt is cheaper than a +4 dex belt).

At the same time, I still prefer Sohei with armor since it allows for overwhelming offensive ability. Remember, armor is an item slot in itself. So that means that sohei can grab brawling armor for a +2 to attack and damage on unarmed strikes (if you are doing an unarmed build). And freeing up the hands slot by moving AC enhancement to the armor means that the sohei can grab gloves of dueling (since their weapon training appears to qualify). So that is another +2 to attack and damage, and it can be used with any kind of weapon build you would want the sohei for (although stacking it with brawling makes unarmed builds sweet).

The AC problem probably is not as much of an issue if you are taking a prestige class with AC though. Just saying- wait until after level 6 so you can grab weapon training and qualify for dueling gloves. Because a +3 total to attack and damage is worth a slight delay.


El_Jefe wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
El_Jefe wrote:
No, it's only worth if if your familiar can UMD and Pseudodragons can't in PFS iirc. ...
Where is that from? I thought dragon types could activate wands (though I don't remember where I read it). I know of at least 2 people that are doing exactly that.
I'm pretty sure only the human shaped improved familiars (imp, quasit, lyrakin) can use the wands in PFS

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9p51

Dunno why Pseudodragon can't use wands, but those are the rules. You might be able to use Alter Self/Greater Hat of Disguise, but it's better to just get another familiar.

Again, it seems that they wanted to keep things simple by just restricting it to human-like bipeds. They didn't not want to try to make a rules based definition of opposable thumbs.

And I still cannot get behind the idea that an improved familiar is worthless if it isn't want slinging. While it might not be the 'optimal' choice, you are still getting a creature with blindsight 60 and telepathy 100. That seems worth the price of admission to me, as long as you understand the value of always being able to notice invisible enemies and then quietly plan what to do about those hidden pursuers.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
El_Jefe wrote:
No, it's only worth if if your familiar can UMD and Pseudodragons can't in PFS iirc. ...
Where is that from? I thought dragon types could activate wands (though I don't remember where I read it). I know of at least 2 people that are doing exactly that.

I'm pretty sure only the human shaped improved familiars (imp, quasit, lyrakin) can use the wands in PFS

I think the problem with dragons is that their rules are often written to account for the ones with shapeshifting magic. It is like how a dragon can have weapon proficiency when in human form....but this means nothing for the pseudo dragon.

Of course, don't quote me on this. I am not flipping through the CRB and PFS rules page when writing this post or anything.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

I still want to find a way to get a flying monkey as a familiar and have the tattoo on my butt.

Be a Summoner. Your Eidolon is a flying monkey, and you manifest it by allowing it to fly out of your butt...
Be sure to pick up the Frightful Presence evolution. I know I would be shaken if a monkey flies out of a man's butt and then attacks me.

Why waste time with all that. Just get a regular monkey familiar and get its escape artist score up to an insane level.

Then, it will be perfectly at home in your butt.


Nope. I can at least get a handle on that one.

Separate weapon entry, so different items. You need to get weapon focus (combat scabbard).


If you look at the list of weapons :here, you can actually find that there are scabbards.

Admittedly, the mechanics for it seem rather clunky. But as far as I can tell, if you grab a sharpened scabbard (it has an edge on the outside), then you do not actually need to take any feats to use it (assuming martial weapon proficiency). ...I think.

The regular scabbards seem a bit more complicated though. It is listed as an improvised weapon (which wouldmean you need Catch off guard), although the fact that it has a weapon entry seems to indicate to me that it can be enhanced like a normal weapon.

Because the original question has been answered, I guess I will hijack the thread by asking how do these mechanics play out.


KestrelZ wrote:

I use the chart in the core rule book.

I also give each player a choice between point buy or an array that is slightly less than optimal, yet technically higher PB value. Those that have single attribute dependent characters tend to go point buy, while multiple attribute dependent characters tend to choose the array.

Example - 20 point buy, or an array of 15, 15, 14, 14, 11, 10 (equivalent to 25 points).

Hmmm... nice array. The 15's could get up to acceptable 17's depending on race and such, and you can get 2 of them if you work things well. Overall, it leaves you with a character that is fairly well rounded. Excellent for the various 6 level spell casters (Who often want to go into melee or ranged combat as well)

But other than a few classes having a problem or two with MAD, I generally like 20 pt buy. It is flexible enough to work well, yet it doesn't make everyone so blandly good that I worry that I can't make up for class based deficiencies (if you aim a will save for a wizard with 14 wis, then what is my fighter supposed to do? I can get a will save to match an uninvested wiz, but can I keep up with saves meant to challenge invested wizards? Everyone having 14 wisdom means nothing if the GM just raises all the DCs by 2)


Boar Ferocity (the second feat in the boar style line) also gives you piercing damage as an option. Plus some nice intimidate stuff.


Well, the way I see it- you are using a feat to get telepathy and blinsense. Those are useful in their own right. And the thing is super stealthy, and has at least basic proficiency in social skills (enough that it is worth rolling, even if you don't take those skills yourself)

Is it the best improved familiar optimization wise? No....but it is still a perfectly fine choice with its own advantages. You aren't ruining anything with this choice.


Hmmmm....I can think of ways to make this work depending on party composition.

Imagine a party with a witch (who uses hexes to tank your saves and force rerolls) and a rogue/vivisectionist/slayer/whatever you can get with sneak attack.

Sneak attack seems to be the important thing for making this viable, since it doubles healing even at level 1. At level 19 with full SNA progression, you are better off with the doll than a wand of CLW in terms of speed (if you can tank your will save. Still seems faster most of the time since a failure only needs another standard action to fix)

But if you can't swing all this, boots of the earthgives fast healing 1 as long as you stand in place (after using a standard action) at the cost of 5,000. So there are options.


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Lou Diamond wrote:
Swashbucklers are supposed to fill a niche for Pirate themed characters and 3 musketeer type characters. Why would you try to force a weapon like a Katana into this theme? Pazio needs to add a few weapons like the epee, foil, main gauche and the sword breaker with rules.

Because that ignores the flexibility of tropes as well as the convergent evolution of a variety of character archetypes that share similarities between cultures?

For the Western audience (I am vaguely more familiar with this), the evolution of this character archetype went VERY roughly like this (of course previous forms always found resurgence, and as such co-exist with later forms):

Classical heroes of Greece/Rome->
Knight Errant->
Swashbuckler->
Gunslinger->
Hollywood action hero (such as the typical characters of Bruce Willis and Arnold

Through this evolution, there are of course important key characteristics of each archetype that distinguishes from prior eras. While Greco-Roman heroes places an emphasis on intelligence and wits (displaying their mental superiority over the supposedly barbarous cultures outside of their lands), the romanticized image of lone knight instead relies more heavily upon faith and God's favor (see the 5 fives listed in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which is a one of the more popular examples of the genre). This shift demonstrates the power of the church over military forces during the Middle Ages, as the struggle between the religious authorities and the nobility lead to a delicate balance that was enforced, in part, with the popular culture.

The swashbuckler, in comparison, is a child of the Renaissance. He is out going, dashing, well read, a ladies' man, and just as quick to use his rapier wit as his actual blade. Obviously, compared to the Middle Ages' knight errant, he lacked the discipline and stoicism, while at the same time reveled in the new found freedom of the era and exemplifying its possibilities (both good and bad).

The Gunslingers of the Wild West took this moral ambiguity a step further, while combining it with the American conception of the fire arm as a way to express one's personal freedom. America, a nation born from conflict that carried the boom of gunpowder rather than the clang of steel, had little room for the sword, and its victory gave a clear symbol of freedom that has not yet been muddled (unlike any symbols you might find in Europe...which has had a long history of backs and forths. And just like how America found little time for the sword, the gunslinger, living in the unforgiving frontiers, had little time for the vast education that typified he swashbuckler, and instead it marked a return to the stoic nature of the knight errant in demeanor (if not beliefs).

Now then: the cultural conception of Samurai that forms the basis of what is known to the English speaking world is both from the actual centuries of tradition and martial arts developed in Japan....and it is also the child of the Wild West as western films streamed into the nation in the 1900's. With famous film makers such as Akira Kurosawa drawing upon Spaghetti Westerns as inspiration, the popular conception of the Samurai ended up highlighting the shared cultural roles of the Ronin and the Gunslinger (lone, mysterious wanderers that went from land to land, stoically saving innocents with their skills and weapons). And this shared nature in fact allowed this process to work both ways, as several famous samurai movies gained Western adapations (such as the Seven Samurai becoming the Magnificent Seven and Yojimbo becoming A Fist Full of Dollars and later Last Man Standing (which allows us to also see how this character archetype also connects with the modern action Hero of Hollywood)

So in conclusion- Why should we allow the swashbuckler to include aspects of samurai? Because the current samurai is just as much a child of the western tradition that includes swashbucklers as it is a child of the daimyos and shoguns of the Pre-Meiji era.

PS- Sorry I went on so long about this. Lit Major and all. Anyway, I never fell in love with the ACG as 'swashbuckler'. All I ever saw it as was a vehicle that served well in making 1handed/1weapon, nonTWF sword and board, and throwing weapons all rather viable. So I frankly cannot get offended when someone uses the class as a mechanical vehicle for using those styles. But poor understanding of the evolution of tropes still gets to me.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
I know you can't rightly do 1.5x Str damage with your primary hand, because there's really no way to "wield" a hand with two hands; I didn't know if the corollary where also true.

Well, you can wield a hand with 2 hands, but that would be some sort of improvised weapon, and it would have to be someone else's hand.

Anyway, you need special training in order to get the offhand to deal full strength damage. This is an assumption based off of the idea that coordinating 2 weapons (even if they are fists) is hard. The power of an attack is not just generated in the arms, but the enitre body, as you ground your feet and pivot your hips in order to add more force to the blow.

To be able to apply the same amount of force to each weapon (which each need their own pivoting and foot placement) while going back and forth between them need special training. Monks get this training from the get go, since they seek to master their bodies.

Anyway, this pivoting and torque stuff is why you can have either hand as your main hand or off hand, and you can switch which is which between different full attacks.

I am probably reading too much into all this though. A lot of this is based off of my assumptions colored by my limited knowledge of melee techniques (ie.- junk I saw on some discovery channel show or something)


Mergy wrote:

You can't use accelerated drinker with extracts, infusion or otherwise. Doable with potions however.

A natural attack build that splashes in unarmed strike would have a large number of attacks by the time you can pounce. Grab a tumor familiar and improve it to something that can drink your extracts (monstrous physique for example), and then you've got a flanking buddy.

Ugh...not really advisable if you aren't a vivisectionist (which is not PFS legal anyway).

If I remember correctly, unarmed strike cause the natural attacks to become secondary, which pretty much removes all their usefulness (-5 attack penalty, 1/2 str and power attack damage) unless you have some way to add damage to each hit so that you benefit as long as it hits. Sneak attack would be the usual method...but c'est la vie.

Just getting normal 2 handed attacks with pounce seems awesome enough.

Anyway, while you certainly have a solid idea (who doesn't love falchions?), I'll just throw another one out there- how about a reach build using longspears?

Reach allows you to become a 25' across circle of pain on the battlefield. That is useful for becoming a living obstacle on the battlefield. That can certainly give you an important role in battle other than being a beatstick with the occasional buff

Alchemists also have a useful way to deal with the problem of enemies that try to escape into adjacent square- the tentacle discovery. If you only have 1 natural attack (and don't use mix it into a full attack with weapons), then it become primary and deals 1.5x str and power attack damage. While half-orcs have the option to skip this discovery and go toothy, that would interfere with the sacred tattoos trait... plus, the tentacle has the odd ability of grab (free action to grapple when you hit with the tentacle, and a +4 to the grapple checks involved). It is always nice to have options, and the bonuses you get (along with mutagen's STR boost and buffs) means you can do fine as a grappler without much more investment. Well enough to take at least take care of any pesky 1/2 BAB, str dumping magical girls (or guys- I don't judge).

Admittedly, you could probably skip a lot of this build by just keeping enlarge person prepared. Turning into a 30' circle of pain with a 18-20/x2 threat range is nice too.


Dwarf Mage wrote:
for teh swashbuckler stuff do the weapons HAVE to be held one handed to benefit since it just says you need the m to be onehanded weapons not that they cant be wielded with two hands... if that does work you can get the 1.5 bonus....

The way that precise strike scales actually appears to be based on balancing a 1handed/1weapon style with a 2handed style.

Assuming the bonuses from strength and power attack for the 2 hander, a precise strike raises your damage enough that you can begin to compare it to other full BAB martials like rangers, paladins, and barbarians who are running around with great swords (it then has swashbuckler weapon training on top of that in order to match up with their various damage boosting stuff).

The features of the class encourage this style, and that is why it has the prerequisite of 1 handed for its better abilities.

Another fun fact-since they can use bucklers in all this, they are also fantastic for non-TWF sword and shield (since hey, they hit like 2 handers-great mobility since you aren't crippled when taking a move action). Along with similar encouragement of throwing weapons and some of the maneuver/mobility stuff...this class is meant to salvage a lot of the stuff people have written off as weak.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:

I don't think Slashing Grace works with light weapons. Which means wakizashi will not get DEX modifier to damage.

Wakizashi already works with the swashbuckler's abilities because it deals P/S, so you don't need Slashing Grace.

There seems to be a byline in slashing grace for dex to damage, if I am not mistaken.

Still...wakizashi are light, finessable weapons. They qualify for the agile property. And unlike most dex builds before the advent of swashbuckler, the player is just fine with only a single agile weapon (TWF is a ***** on the wallet)

So this is a classic improved critical vs. keen problem. Personally, I go with the option that lets me use my favored weapon immediately, instead of waiting until I can scrounge the feats together (having to settle due to slow start up is a pain).

And honestly- it is only 1x your ability score modifier. It is nowhere near as important as precise strike (which won't work until you have the feat) and power attack/piranha strike (which dex builds always seem to put off when things get tough; also- you need power attack rather than being able to grab piranha strike if you go with katana. Not sure if needing 13 str is a problem...but it is there as a consideration)


It is not really worth it since wakizashis are a thing in this system.

They are light weapons with 1d6 18-20/x2, deadly, and they can deal piercing damage as well as slashing. IE-it works with everything you have from the get go.

So overall, save yourself the feats and just get something slightly shorter. And I doubt anyone would call you on blurring the line between long wakizashi/short katana.

Get this if you want to spend the feats/effort to get an exotic weapon.


chaoseffect wrote:

If you have a magic weapon you just deal half damage; there is no mischance. If you don't have magic weapons you can't affect it.

Incorporeal isn't so much the issue as the other points. Though it would go down fairly easy in a turn or so, the character only has 10 strength. Plus it's already 3v1 so adding the Shadow would just hurt him even more in the action economy department.

I do love Shadows and the party will learn to hate them even more than they already do in time, but I think this particular event wouldn't be good for them to make an appearance.

Whoops, got my 50% wrong. Too many of those thrown around in a shadow fight for me to keep track (50% damage, 50% chance of corporeal spells working....and no shadow dancer worth their salt fights in sunlight, so you often have lighting to deal with so that means concealment; etc.)

Still, I agree, well played shadows (particular a shadow dancer's, since they are more durable with half its master's hp, and all of their saves and BAB) seem less like the thing to put on a team of skilled thugs to take out nosy interlopers, and they seem more like the thing that the assassin team sent to take out a king or important general might have hiding in the walls as a nasty surprise if they are interrupted.

Something big and kinda finall-y, basically.


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K177Y C47 wrote:
Lincoln Hills wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
... it's something that often bugs GMs: when players want to use greatswords in cramped dungeons. I know you can't use them while in a grapple, but it looks like you can just use them even while squeezing.
That's nothing! I can use my whip while prone, entangled, and fighting in a phone booth! Indiana Jones is a chump compared to a 1st-level bard!
Well have you seen that phone booth? Its HUGE on the inside! Just make sure you don't piss her off, you might end up sometime you didn't start out at xD

Well, that certainly explains why there is a phone booth on Golarion.


666bender wrote:

Why a shadow dancer with shadow would be a problem ?

How is it any different than a Mage casting ray of enervation/ vampiric touch etc ?

The shadow automatically comes with a few natural advantages that a caster would need several spells (and maybe some build specific abilities) to replicate. And those would likely require several turns to use.

First, shadows are incorporeal. That means 50% miss chance against most magical weapons. A party could get past that since they would have casters that could theoretically use force damage or channel positive energy against it. This is a duelist/bard-ish type character by themselves, and as such the options are limited. That is not exactly fair, and goes against the 'he should have a chance' rule.

Their physically state also means they can go into the walls or floors without any problems, which allows it to escape even if a large amount of damage is used.

The other main problem here is that the strength damage is actually lethal. The GM can't have some GMPC burst in and save the knocked out PC after he realizes that the scenario was too hard. And as a duelist/bard type character, his strength it probably rather low and he might not have any enhancement items for it. While there are certainly options on the wizard list that can cause a similar scale of problems, this is a non AoO drawing action from a creature that is already hard to hit. You might as well say that the entire party (yes a party of 1, but this is again the problem of solo) is getting a constant 1d6 con damage per round for the danger this presents.

And remember, there are 2-3 other characters in the scenario trapping and smacking this guy around while this is happening. The shadow alone vaguely seems like a level appropriate challenge due to how troublesome its abilities would be for the build.


LeesusFreak wrote:

Have a smoke-based team of Oracle dipped classes do it. The Waves, Fire, and Winter mysteries all have revelations that allow them to see through Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud, and if you have them cast Solid Fog, the Rogue is at a heavy disadvantage (his SA won't work in the fog). The Oracles only each need one level in Oracle for that revelation, you can have them do anything else for the rest of their levels.

There are a lot of ways to make a 3 v 1 really unfair, even if the mobs are underleved. Tucker's Kobolds are a classic example of this.

I suppose ifrits with fire sight would be the best for that if you can't go oracle.

Similar idea-Tieflings with the fiendish sight feat (twice, since it gives you See in Darkness then)

You could have an inquisitor with deeper darkness in there too (hey, there are plenty of gods of murder; at least a few of them might have their own services, or offer some personnel to the local assassins guilds).

Would shadow dancer help? Preferably, it would be [something] x/shadow dancer 1. Getting to shadow dancer 3 and having a shadow going around dealing lethal strength damage would be a problem. You just want to have the ability to use stealth in battle. You can use spring attack with restealthing, right? Maybe with some nice reach weapon?


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Also, it is of a size where you could only really use it on the battlefield. It is not the tool of back alley shankings.

Admittedly, that seems like an equally good argument for greatswords to be on the polearms list....but hey, I was only aiming to justify nodachis here.


Mighty Squash wrote:
HEART OF THE METAL (Advanced Classes p183) wrote:


School transmutation [earth]; Level magus 3, sorcerer/
wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a chunk of adamantine worth 100 gp,
or a chunk of cold iron or silver worth 20 gp)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one weapon per level
Duration 1 minute/level (see text)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You lend the nature of adamantine, cold iron, or silver to the targeted weapons, with the following effects:
Adamantine: The weapons overcome DR/adamantine and ignore hardness less than 20.
Cold Iron: The weapons overcome DR/cold iron.
Silver: The weapons overcome DR/silver.
No other advantages or disadvantages of these metal types apply. For example, a weapon given the nature of adamantine is not automatically masterwork.
This is able to affect non metal weapons. If you grant the target weapons the property of cold iron, the spell lasts half as long as normal.

My problem here, in order to make a weapon act as if cold iron for 1 minute/level you need cold iron of the same value as a cold iron battleaxe. Assuming raw cold iron would be at least as much material for gold as that already made in to a weapon, the spell would need over 5lb of cold iron (I've assumed some of the weight of a battleaxe is a wooden handle).

Witches or Wizard/Sorcs (i.e. STR dumpers, and the majority of those with it on their spell list) wanting to cast this are going to be notably weighed down carry even only a couple of castings worth of those components. This seems kind of ridiculous.

The trade goods prices from Ultimate Equipment make the amount required much less, as they value cold iron at 50 gold per pound. While this makes the above spell a lot more sensible, it makes the game world economy insanely broken. Cold iron battleaxe cost 20 gold, the materials needed to make it cost well over...

Well, with the battleaxe, you could argue that it is just the ax head, and the rest is wood. Of course, on the other hand, you can also get cold iron swords, and those are typically made mostly from metal.

Anyway, the spell caster only needs 1 sample of each metal they think they will use at a time since this lasts the whole fight (and should cover everyone's weapons by the level you can cast it). It is the job of the big beefy grunts that actually get the effects of this spell to carry the backpack full of metal.

Still, this is interesting. Since it can affect nonmetal weapons, I could get my sohei monk to use this when punching golems. Well...if I wasn't going to go for pummeling style already (punching hard enough to make DR meaningless- all with a false pounce. The age of the fist has come.)


Yeah, the crit thing is the main reason why this feat needs to be restricted to unarmed strikes. The assumption of a terrible crit range is the only balancing factor, since you are looking for whether you DON'T crit.

Let's look at some other levels and number of attacks

At level 6, a monk can get 4 attacks with flurry and ki. .94^4=.8145, or a little less than 20% chance to crit. Compared to normal weapons, that would be like a keen dagger at 17-20.

At level 11, you care get 7 attacks, which is .95^7=.6983, or about a 30% chance of critting, which is like a keen kukri at 15-20.

Now of course, the fact is that you critting is a bit different from regular crit fishing (since it is generally safe to assume that the target is going to die). In someways, it combines the qualities of high crit range with a high crit modifier.... still, it generally lags a bit behind regular crit fishing in overall USEFUL damage, it would seem. The only real problem this provides is if they 1 shot the BBEG at the start.... and generally, you should prevent charge lanes in those fights anyway.

Personally, I would love some clarification that prevents use with other weapons (you have to be exceedingly obstinate to use that loophole, and for the most part it seems to boil down to "I want pounce"-ignoring the crit problem), and maybe to prevent it from stacking with either improved critical or haste. The critting seems generally on par with regular weapons without that stuff. And even without the advantages of better critting....you are blasting through DR and getting pounce. It is a good deal anyway. We would have taken these feats just for that.


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Reach alchemist with the tentacle discovery.

The idea of the tentacle is to provide a decent option for threatening adjacent squares. While it is normally secondary, if it is your only natural attack, it acts like it is primary and deals 1.5x str and power attack. So decent enough there.

The real fun comes when you realize that it also has the grab ability (+4 to grapple checks and free action grapple attempts on successful attacks). With a decent strength score, you can take your 3/4 BAB, mutagen bonuses to strength, and various buffs (enlarge person seems standard) to get a decent enough grapple check. You aren't going to put the tetori out of business.....but it is amusing that the guy with tentacles is best most parties can get for taking out magical girls (or guys- I'm not judgin'), since you are easily deal with the 1/2 BAB and strength dumping sorts.

Anyway, as a human, it is possible to grab both a reach build (power attack and combat reflexes) and then move onto getting the ton of prerequisites for grappling. With the grab ability covering for any problems until then (that +4 is sweet), you can eventually get everything rather tidily by level 9.


Undone wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Undone wrote:
barry lyndon wrote:

Became a moot point. Part way through the monologue-as-a-bluff, 1 high sense motive roll and the barbarian wins initiative and crits on a power attack.

Scratch 1 minor boss.

In character "I didn't know there would be this much talking." Pull ax from head.

Sounds like my son playing any Final Fantasy game.

Me: Aren't you interested in at least getting enough of the story to see where you need to go next?
Him: *button mashing* Huh?
Me: Nevermind.

Barbarians only have two speeds.

"Kill it!"
and
"I'm dead!"

Now now. They also enjoy drinks and women while the guy who brought plastic elf ears to the table makes the GM feel useful.


I think it might be something that can be handled with a bit of gentlemen's agreement....And if that doesn't entirely work, allow them to make a special readied action that can be a full round action/set of actions (if the player would get those) for when the BBEG tries something funny (casts a spell, readies a super weapon, goes for a hostage, etc). That way, they aren't losing anything strategically by listening.

Of course, the shot to the head ending a monologue is of course another staple of story telling, and I can't entirely blame the players for that (they are just roleplaying a character that might not have time for that junk). Maybe occasionally add in something to stop this (a trap, a spell, a couple of enemies with their own readied actions in ambush) that serves as the reason WHY the BBEG feels confident enough to monologue.

Of course, some unseeable trap isn't fair to the players either. Give the players a special circumstantial +10 bonus to perception/whatever applicable skill like knowledge to notice this deterrence if they cautiously let the BBEG ramble on while they assess the situation. This is smart in a combat sense in character, and establishing a precedent for this will make it so you don't always have to put in some cheating deterrence to save the monologue. The players will just do it as a matter of course once any one starts monologuing, since good players are nothing if not suspicious. Combined with the full round readying, they will obediently wait out the monologue (unless they think it is good for the character), even if you haven't put in some barrier spell or trap this particular time.


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Imbicatus wrote:
A sling is free. A shortbow is 30 gp. That is nothing.

A sling WEIGHS nothing too (it has a - as weight, indicating it is negligible to the point of not being counted)

Slings are free, and weigh nothing. There is no reason not to have one other than the fact that it adds a tiny bit of clutter to your inventory page.

Even if you are a bow using ranger, having a sling as a back up hurts nothing. Having it as a back up to your proper back up hurts nothing.

If you get caught and your equipment stolen, then wearing the sling as a belt or something gives you options, especially since your GM would quite honestly forget it is there.

But yeah, undernormal circumstances, just sticking with spring loaded daggers should cover most of your problems. If something gets 50 feet away in the middle of a battle, then it starts being the archer and mage's job. I would still pick up a non masterwork short bow after a few levels, when the 30 gp seems like the quarter you give to a kid that wants gum from a gumball machine. But for early levels, and as a general plan for most circumstances, the dagger works.


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If the GM allows it, then sure, fine.

But there is an equally valid argument- synthetic gems are worth less than natural ones in real life, and I do not doubt that such a trend would change in a magical setting.

So, going off of that logic, we can go back to the old arbitrary cost joke ("I got 10% off on those 5,000 gp of diamonds you asked off" "Well then, they didn't cost 5,000 gp, now did they? Go back and buy some more").

In a more realistic sense, you could argue that an artificially made gem is unsuitable for the spell. If it is a divine spell, then your otherworldly power source was annoyed you tried to get one over on them. If it is a more arcane approach, then you could argue that the natural formation in regular gems are essential for holding the spell's power, and as such a ton of small gems fused together would be like trying to brush your teeth with sand paper (since it is a random mish mash of other gem's patterns).

In the end, it is the GM's call on whether this works. Just remember- that costly spell component was put there as an intentional money sink. Carefully consider what that means for your game before making the change.

At the very least, you could impose some kind of penalty that would make natural gems more attractive (such as a caster check to not anger god/have the spell suddenly explode). This both reward their ingenuity by providing a new option, and it would force them to carefully consider whether the risk is worth the savings. Plus, it adds in a dramatic roll that can determine the course of the campaign. And heck, it even adds some flavor to your game's world. Those that can't afford to shell out the big bucks are forced to use dangerous and unreliable magic....that sound like a campaign hook in itself that could result in any number of arbitrary occurances that you want...all while going back to the old go to line:

"A wizard did it"


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Zolanoteph wrote:

Here's another problem: For me, the alternatives to singing in battle are just plain worse.

-Dancing: If I was angry that the bard was making me super powerful by singing, I'm furious that little Billy Elliot is tap dancing so beautifully that I become a titan in battle. I prefer not to play with musical bards, but I would outright refuse to play with a dancer.
-Oratory: Oration seems a little cooler than music and at a glance outright cool, but it is the worst transgressor of them all when it comes to my final problem with the bard, the "Life Coach Problem"

You obviously have some problems with genre and drama then.

For perform, oratory...if I had to pick one of the better 'in battle' rather than 'prebattle pep talks', then one of the best examples I can think of is this:

"I am Indigo Montoya. You killed my Father. Prepare to Die".

It is an obvious example of Inspire Greatness (giving him temporay hp, increasing his fort saves against death, and a bonus to attack rolls).

Another way I like to imagine it- pretend you are in a terrible Kung-fu film with bad lip syncing. That can help with both dance (awe inspiring wire-fu!) and oratory.

"Even if the heavens forgive your actions, I will not!"
"The net of heaven is wide, but it has few holes"
"For the crimes against the emperor, you will pay with your life"

As long as you give some brief speech about how evil the other guy is (and make it so that 5 year olds will say 'yeah, get the bad guys'), then it seems fine. It is reasonable enough way to do it without trying to boost their confidence. Instead, you are inciting their rage against those they fight against. And I, for one, am perfectly fine with bards that try to be corny 'protagonists' with these dramatic speeches.

Of course, this problem could be avoided if you take an archaeologist. Not entirely the same niche (less buffing others with performances, more cool skill bonuses, as well as tanky saves). It is a much easier way to approach the bard- this person is someone that goes into dungeons and relies upon his wits, skills, and luck. He has some magic, but it is mostly utilitarian and simple. Overall, it meshes far easier with a party since it seems like your average 'adventurer' that just happened to take some elective courses in introductory magic and lock picking in adventurer college.


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Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:
Gan Mondragone wrote:
I know in the advanced race guide there was a generic centaur, but I want to know if anyone has played one or had one in their campaign. Also if you could post your version of the race. I am trying to make one to add to a Kingmaker campaign.
You talking about like a homebrew version of the centaur? I made one of those because I knew their RP was ludicrously high, so I made a lower RP version, complete with a full background writeup.

Nope, there is an official write up from the Advanced Race guide...I think.

I am always a bit muddled on these side things. I know that the advanced race guide included a 28 RP build as one of the example races as a 'look at what you can do!' kind of thing. Not entirely sure where that everything on that page was originally there though (some of it might be bestiary stuff that the website used to help flavor it up).

But apparently the race did get at least some form of support through race trait...OH....cool, one of those lets you use lances kind of like you were mounted... Makes sense, I suppose.

Anyway, I will admit that the example build was a bit troublesome (it was probably supposed to be over powered a bit to get people hyped). It gets...+4 STR, +2 DEX/CON/WIS. And it is large, but it lacks the undersized weapons trait that bestiary centaurs have.


Just roll everything like you were doing a normal full attack (although you put DR off until later).

How much total damage did the full attack do?

Does DR apply? Apply that once to the total full attack damage (instead to every hit).

The result is your damage.

And that is the reason why it is so good (other than pummeling charge)- it lets unarmed strikes, which normally have trouble avoiding DR and rely too heavily on a lot of small hits to deal damage (which would be just whittled down by DR), to just tell things like werewolves and demons to just stuff their fancy DR where Sarenrae don't shine. You just pool your full attack into one attack so it only ever sees DR once.

Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't downsides and countermeasures. Anything like concealment, which gives a fixed percentage chance to miss per hit, will ruin pummeling style (20% for your whole full attack to miss?).


Degoon Squad wrote:

A thing about beauty and money

even today people with money often look better then those who do not , even if they share the same genes.
Chances are a peasant woman doing hard work day in and day out,out in the weather and mud is going to have a lower beauty score then her cousin , working in an office job in the City.
Add to the fact that the peasant woman, may not have access to dental care or maybe even a toothbrush, has a poorer diet and cannot afford too many beauty aids and and no time or money to pamper herself and you can see why some people would not be as good looking as others.

Well, that could be due to environment (the sun is KILLER on the skin in a world before sunscreen) and better diet.

Although, a city worker might end up being uglier since cities are notorious for disease in the "dump the chamber pot onto the street" era, and their food might have to deal with delay and storage issues since it might be isolated from the sources of food ("That moss on your week old fish is there for flavor! I'm only charging 20% extra for it, what a deal!!")


Seranov wrote:
Oh Seeker, why are you so good. Finally I can play Paladins that can see/hear/notice their way out of a paper bag.

Seeker, why are you so delightfully vague that your fluff could apply to anybody?

It is fantastic- it just says you watch out for danger or reward....which is pretty much anybody that wants to be an adventurer (people who aren't either do the sane thing and find a safer job...or they get 'retired' early).

It is not something like vagabond child, where you have to make up some convoluted excuse for why your noble lived on the street (admittedly, I think I could spin that by taking from the Pauper and the Prince...still, general point- seeker doesn't need mental gymnastics like this)


Conis nowhere near that important. Fortitude is your good save, and you have a ton of hp anyway. You get more rage rounds from it....but nowhere near enough that you can justify how much it hurts your strength stat (which is what you rely on when you aren't raging...also when you are raging as well) and your wisdom.

And reflex is usually not that important (not as scary as will....which you dumped) and as such dex is not that important.

Get at least a decent strength (16) and don't dump wis.

Here is something that better fits your abilities.
STR: 16 DEX: 15 CON: 17 (15+2) INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 7


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
How are you getting to gargantuan with just monk abilities?

I'm assuming buffs are at work here.

Admittedly, there is a PrC, the Brother of the Seal, which is a monk/ trapfinding rogue kind of deal that got cool things like awesome blow and they are treated as a size larger for unarmed strikes. So you can get to huge just with a wand of enlarge person here.


John Kretzer wrote:

Well this is a interesting topic.

The thing is though there would be people who could be termed 'ugly' that just accept themselves for who there are.

Yes, the dwarves pity us for being so accepting for our horrid appearances. Such gangly, long limbs, our anorexic waists, and horribly hairless faces. Its like looking at a shaved cat. They are honestly kind of surprised we can even stand.

And don't even get a dwarf started on the elves!


The Human Diversion wrote:
Money. The ugly are probably poor and can't afford to get pretty. It's one of the reasons why the "beautiful farmer's/baker's/miller's daughter" is a common fantasy element

They are also probably dirty, which means that the beauteous spellcaster master race charge them extra for even being in their presence.

But yeah, most people could only afford the occasional 1st level spell at best. Even a cure light wounds would probably cost as much as a trip to the emergency room if the local temple was less Sarenrae and more Abadar/Asmodeus.

Simply put, the number of starving people and characters missing limbs in things like adventure paths, despite the presence of magic that could solve those problems, tell me that there are bigger problems to worry about usually.

Oh, and there is actually a eugenics program in setting with the island nation of Hermea run by the gold dragon Mengkare, who calls the program the 'Glorious Endeavor'. While it has a certain amount of wealth and power.... most religions do not take kindly to it. In fact, Shelyn is explicitly listed as one of the ones that are against it, along with Desna, Erastil, and Sarenrae.


lunar mystery for oracles has the gift of claw or horn, which gives a bite, claw, or gore attack. This ability lasts for rounds/0.5xlevel, and can be brought out 3+CHA times per day. At level 11, you can get two natural weapons from this. Oh, and these attacks get scaling enhancement bonuses (although that typically shouldn't matter for a natural attack build- mostly there if you want to get close threatening with reach maybe?)

Oh, and looking at the spell list for that mystery, I also see the moonstruck spell, which can grant bite/claw/claw.... but this is more of a debuff, since the spell puts you under the effects of a rage spell (so +2 strength, but you can't use spells) and confusion (so only a 25% chance of acting normally a round, 25% of doing nothing, and 50% chance of hurting yourself and others), and you pretty much have to attack with your natural attacks (bye bye sweet +5 holy keen vorpal blade of awesome....). Oh, and you are dazed during the last round of the spell (after madness glow).


Tieflings have a bite or claw option
Tengu come with bites, and have a claw option too.
Kitsune have bites.
Catfolk have a claw option


Oh, and one interesting option would be the Evangelist prestige class.

This prestige class is one of the few that are seen as insanely good. This is because it has the ability, after a gap at level 1, to resume a different class' abilities. As in, a barbarian 5/evangelist 6 is the same as a barbarian 10....with the obvious advantage of pouncy goodness. The only difference you'll find (besides other goodies that evangelist throws in along the way) is that your BAB, skills, saves, and hit dice are changed for those levels (and it is still not that bad a deal).

Anyway, the relevant part of the evangelist here is that its capstone gives you the ability to take on some spiritual form for 10 min/day in 1 min increments. It gives you a +4 to any ability score, and lets you pick from a list of special abilities like wings, gills, or a single natural weapon. So you could use this to grab a sting, which is a relatively hard natural attack to grab and a 'free slot' so to speak as far as limbs go.


Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

two levels of ranger with the natural weapon combat style

Half-orc, Trait or Feat
Alchemist Discoveries, Tentacle, Ferral,
Witch, hair hex, or white haired witch archetype.
sorcerer bloodline, dragon.(dragon disciple Prestige class)

Unfortunately, I am fairly sure that the tentacle discovery (much like the vestigial arms) does not grant extra attacks, but simply replaces one with a secondary natural attack.

Honestly, it seems more like a way to get a single natural attack (which gets 1.5x str and power attack, and always act like a primary attack when used alone). Useful for reach builds to threaten up close, and it even has the grab property (+4 to grapple checks, and free action grapple on a hit- use it on enemy casters, and you should not see too many problems)

And I might as well also say- the hair stuff from witches does not play well with others, since they always use Int instead of a physical attack for something. Nice for witches....but they won't benefit from your normal str/dex stuff normally.


I know that aspect of the beast (which is a feat that has an option that gives claws) requires either wildshape, lycanthropy, or a particular ranger style (no idea if new ACG stuff gives other options).

So I assume that it can involve partial transformation, since most of the possible ways to get it require the ability to transform.

That various animal shamans also have a minute/day thing that does partial transormation. The exact nature of this varies based on the animal archetype used; some give useful things like natural armor or trip- the overall based archetype, the saurian shaman (which is a dinosaur and reptile based one...which means it already absorbed the snake and draconic shaman archetypes) has a bite/claw/claw for its partial transormation.

Note- animal shamans delay true wildshape for 2 levels, and similarly delays shapes not related to your animal. Your animals' shapes are boosted instead. But people mostly take this arhcetype to get summon nature's ally as a standard action. With the saurian shaman, you get dozens of options with that.


The problem with the monk is that the unarmed damage dice are a mechanic that is grandfathered from earlier editions of D&D. Back in the day, with the cruel, cruel dice gods holding their reign over the land, you rolled once for stats, and you were stuck with them. So you were just as likely to get a 3 as you were to get the 18 that so many clamor for with today's point buy.

Overall though, rolls tended towards the average (about 10.5). This meant that you had no modifier bonuses to damage. As such, you could only rely upon what your weapon could do. Damage dice were the kings of that age. So adding damage dice were a great thing at the time.

And heck, in those days, being 3/4 BAB with no bonuses to attack from your class was fine, since the game relied more on tactical bonuses from things like flanking, as well as buffs and enhancing items.

But that age has long past. Later editions and PF have raised the bar, and made stat reliable enough that you could work out what to make before hand. And now, static bonuses are the king of this age. And unfortunately, monks can normally provide no bonuses to attack (which, as others has pointed out, no longer meets par without flurry, and is still 'meh' with it), and the increase in damage from damage dice is both unreliable and frankly not that impressive.

Personally, I prefer sohei archetype, which forgoes increasing its damage dice in favor for weapon training and other cool stuff. While it can flurry in light armor, this does not give it better AC over a well equipped unarmored monk after early levels (I know, odd, but 2 stats to defense, and they can use wizardy items to increase defense too, which adds up with AC bonuses at later levels)....but I still like that change since it gives you another item slot (brawling armor gives a +2 to unarmed strike attack and damage) and opens up your wrist slot (it is usually take up by bracers of armor, but sohei would rather enjoy the fighter's Gloves of Dueling since they have weapon training- that is another +2 to attack and damage).

Overall, the sohei can get a +7 to attack and damage that normal monks would not see. That gives them enough of a bonus that they can reliably hit even without flurry of blows, and it makes them even stronger than fighters while still retaining perfect saves and 4+ skill points (plus cool things with ki).

And funnily enough, comparing the average damage of the basic unarmed strike (1d6~3.5) with the level 20 one (2d10~11)....the bonuses to damage that a sohei can enjoy put them on par for damage- and they do it without the randomness of damage dice while still getting bonuses to attack rolls that make it possible to even get those hits in.

Of course, the new brawler from ACG gets true full BAB and can find similar ways to get static bonuses. I still prefer sohei, personally, since it has perfect saves and cool ki things...but that is more of a preference thing. I think they are at least somewhat comparable power-wise in the right hands.


EvilPaladin wrote:
There is
  • The Wings discovery for alchemists
  • The Fly spell
  • Overland Flight
  • the Flight Hex(at 5th level)
  • the Lure of the Heavens, Wings of Flame, Wings of Air, and several other oracle revelations
  • the Wings, On Dark Wings, Wings of the Heavens, Elemental Movement(Air), and several other 15th level Sorcerer bloodline powers
  • the Flight evolution, combined with the Aspect class feature
  • the Lure of the Heavens Shaman Hex
  • the any of the Beast Shape line of spells(if used for the right kind of spells)
  • Elemental Body line of spells(If used for an Air Elemental)
  • the Form of the Dragon line of spells
  • the Air Blessing's Major Blessing
  • Probably several other class features/feats/combos/spells.

Would various polymorph methods work? I mean, you get the +4 from the wings you were born with. Unless I am misremembering something, you lose the abilities and bonuses connected to your physical form when you take on another shape.

Anyway, the vestigial wings could stick around as an additional pair of wings that act like a bird's retrices (tail feathers) while some class ability gives proper wings.


LazarX wrote:

It's why Clark Kent can fool a whole building of reporters that he works with on a DAILY basis with only a pair of glasses.

Seriously you're talking about a power that can maintain an alias even under the magical effects of Discern Lines, Divination, and True Seeing.

That actually brings up an interesting point about this ability- your disguise does not necessarily have to be for your superhero identity, but rather for your civilian persona (since the ability says 'typically', and the only restriction is to 1 disguise check that could be anything).

Superman uses his disguise check when he becomes CLARK (he adds in the glasses and acting talents to appear 'normal'). He is not using his disguise check when he is flying in his undies while hitting power armored lex with an 18-wheeler.

The bonus to your disguise check is +4....and the penalty for looking like another race is -2.....*

"By day, he works as a mild mannered reporter for the Daily Golarion, but by night he reveals his true self as BUGBEARMAN- transformed by a reincarnate spell gone wrong, he now uses his powerful body to fight evil!"

*-yeah, I realize that there is another -10 for size category, but this is funny- point is, you can be something crazy and possibly get away with it.


Maybe he wanted to give you more attacks via kicks.

That may seem somewhat useful (unarmed strikes get enhanced by the same items as natural attacks), but then it would ruin the natural attacks. Unarmed strikes get iteratives and need TWF, so I am pretty sure they count as manufactured weapons for the purposes of making EVERY natural attack secondary

That halves their str and power attack damage, and puts in a rather stiff -5 penalty to attack (reduced to -2 with multiattack). Since that ruins the bite/claw/claw and adds all sorts of penalties to your attacks (at best, everything hits at BAB-2).

This would only be an advantage if you were a vivisectionist, who gets sneak attack, which means you care more about getting hits in rather than what damage they can do themselves. Even then, you are a 3/4 BAB character who would be dealing with all sorts of penalties to attack. Even with mutagen, you would likely hit more consistently with just a bite/claw/claw (for a 3/4 BAB character, this combo is fairly close to a TWF build in itself).

I also question how this seems like it would just HAVE to be a dex build (since you have both TWF feats to qualify for and your INT to think about for your spells). You thus run into the classic rogue problem- what to do when you can't sneak attack. A strength based alchemist just running with Bite/claw/claw would do fine even in that case, since their attack stat is also their damage stat. To do the same with a dex build, you would need an agile Amulet of Mighty Fists (which is already very expensive, so this would delay you from getting proper enhancements just to do the damage STR builds do naturally). I am a bit wary of DEX builds on an alchemist, since that encourages you to make DEX mutagens, and thus you would suffer a -2 to WIS.....

I also would avoid this route since it need all this: IUS, Feral Combat Training, weapon focus, TWF, Improved TWF, weapon finesse, multiattack, and an agile AoMF. Overall, a huge amount of investment, none of which pays off at the level you are starting at. This approach also needs you to be a vivisectionist alchemist, which is nice, but you lose your bombs (which serve both as damage and a way to give area of effect debuffs with nasty save DCs).

Personally, I would just stick with normal bite/claw/claw at your level, since that combo dominates all the way through mid levels, and it is still decent at high levels (about as well as a gish like character in melee can be at high levels, anyway).

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