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Dead bird

lemeres's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,645 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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claudekennilol wrote:
2. Primary weapons stay that way until you actually use the daggers. Everything is secondary when you use a manufactured weapon
So to clarify, all natural attacks are secondary when used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon?

That is how it works, yes.

claudekennilol wrote:

5. No, it would not be TWF. That is only when you use multiple manufactured weapons at once. The only attack to suffer in that case would be the claw. Manufactured weapons are not really affected by natural attacks other than 'one sequence per limb' rule.

What is this quote referring to, then?

CRB wrote:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in

combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used
for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw
attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a
longsword. When you make additional attacks in this
way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary
natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus
5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modif ier on
damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and
Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce
these penalties.
So what about a bite combined with a monk's unarmed attack? Would the bite still be considered primary since the monk isn't using a manufactured weapon?

Unfortunately, unarmed strikes should generally be considered manufactured weapons for this, since they get iterative attacks. So your natural weapons would become secondary if you threw in a kick.

I should also note- the flurry of blows does not allow natural attacks to be added onto it. You can use something called Feral Combat training to get a natural attack to gain any bonuses to unarmed strikes and use it in flurry.... but unfortunately, that just means that it is a monk weapon, allowing you to only do the normal number of attacks.

Also, if you use TWF, its -2 penalty does not apply to any natural attacks you use. Outside of the 'one 1 attack set per limb' and the 'mixing causes natural attacks to become secondary', you can usually view them as in their own little world away from manufactured weapons

1. If it is a primary weapon, then yes. Primary natural attacks include: bites, claws, slams, etc. Secondary natural attacks include: pincers, tail slaps, talons, wing attacks, etc.

2. Primary weapons stay that way until you actually use the daggers. Everything is secondary when you use a manufactured weapon

3. No, you can only get 1 attack sequence per limb. That goes for natual attacks and manufactured weapons. For example, you can't use a greatsword, and then drop it and continue the full attack with a pair of daggers either.

4.Natural weapons do not force eachother into primary or secondary.You can have as many primary natural attacks as you can acquire.

5. No, it would not be TWF. That is only when you use multiple manufactured weapons at once. The only attack to suffer in that case would be the claw. Manufactured weapons are not really affected by natural attacks other than 'one sequence per limb' rule.

Suichimo wrote:
Isn't this basically what the Joker actually did with the Royal Flush Gang in the episode Wild Cards of Justice League? He had the majority of the Royal Flush Gang trying to stop the Justice League from defusing bombs in Las Vegas while he was really just waiting for the viewer count to rise to a sufficiently high level so he could have Ace make everyone go insane.

Admittedly, it is a fairly common tactic.

I'll say that it worked rather well in Die Hard because they used the connection of the antagonist with the one from the first movie (brothers) in order to make the whole thing look like a simple revenge plot, rather than merely as a distraction.

Essentially, have deeper motivations than 'screwing with the party'....but don't let the party in on that fact until things get dramatic. Of course, that doesn't mean that messing with them isn't a rather nice side benefit....

Third Mind wrote:
Murder's already covered but could be furthered in various ways, theft of personal items usually isn't fun for any PC or player. So I think humiliation ("public" if possible) and mental traumas (that would depend on the PC's personal history I think) is the only other acceptable thing.

Oh, you could also take a page from Die Hard: With a Vengeance: have the party complete come arbitrary puzzle or task, with harsh time limits, and threaten innocent civilians in the process (throwing one of the statues in might also help). Some form of time explosives are always good for this kind of thing(invisible creature covered in explosive runes that loses its invisibility in 10 the middle of the town square?) Make sure that the city guard are involved, also trying to stop the attack.

The whole time, the villain is simply using this whole display as a distraction for his real goal (theft of some important item or treasure, for example; even running off with the treasury can work rather well with type IV bags of holding). By sending you and the city guard on a wild goose chase, he leaves vital areas with weakened defenses (which allows him to use more subtle methods that are harder to use during full lock down).

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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

You are mistaken: "effect" is not a game term. It is an English Language word that can apply to almost anything.

And I never said anything about making claw attacks with your feet.

If I don't cut my toenails, I can definitely make claw attacks with my feet. :P

No, those are talons. Or a rake. Which is why no one wants to be the little spoon with you.

Odraude wrote:
Pugwampis. F%~#ing pugwampis.

No, use the proper term for them:

"45' across circles of no save, automatic, AoE misfortune hex".

Giving those things class levels so they don't die in 1 hit seems like the scariest thing you could throw into an encounter. Imagine if they ever teamed up with kobolds?

They are why the 'trap' option of the First Worlder archetype summoner could cause the GM to pull their hair out just as much as a beasted out eidolon or a Master Summoner horde. If you can work the rest of the party around the one escape clause of 'luck bonuses cancel it out', at least. But even without that, the party wizard could do some devastating Save or Die spells.

But Shadows and Shadow demons are close in there for me, since they are incorporeal and have nasty abilities (heck, the shadow demon is partially balanced due to a weakness to sunlight, which the GM can completely deprive you of with 'it was a dark and story night')

nosig wrote:
also realize that Shrink Item should also work on the "hostages" so the villain could carry a large number of them off... in his pocket. Let's hope he doesn't drop them!

"Oh my, it looks like you have me in a rather precarious situation. Here I am, on this rope bridge, over a pit of lava. You could just shoot me any minute"

*pulls out a tiny statue and hangs it over the side of the bridge*

"...and here I am with my butter fingers.... I hope nothing makes me drop anything important"


"Oh, easy come, easy go. I mean, these things are a dime a dozen"

*fills hands with statues, and hangs both over the sides*

The only way I see a Lucerne hammer messing with roleplaying is that it looks silly slung over your shoulder while you are shoot arrows.

But that is a problem I find with all polearms and spears. And that is largely just a personal aesthetic preference. Heck, I vaguely dislike the idea of having a bow over your shoulder too while you hit thing with melee weapon (at least visually; I like seeing characters actually being able to use both)

Anyway, in actual use, it seems perfectly fine to me. It is a weapon meant to stab and smash, and it is a medieval can opener, which made it popular in Europe as armors became more developed. What kind of inconsistencies does he find with this?

I personally would take the brawling armor, even if you could only grab a chainshirt.

I mean, that +2 to your punches means you don't need a +2 amulet of mighty fists. As you said, your funds are strained. Could you really afford the 36,000 gp where the AoMF starts getting really good (where it punches through DR/cold iron or silver, and thus 'worth it')? I mean, PFS only goes to mid levels....

By skipping the AoMF, you could also grab a cheap amulet of natural armor to boost your AC. You could easily afford a +2 with the money saved (almost a +3 by certain estimates). And were you planning on a ring of protection? If not, by cheap of both these items to get the most for your gp.

Also, another note- Do you know about the Irorian Paladin archetype? It was built around being a punchy paladin. It has some interesting flexibility with its code and can use its replacement for smite on any enemy. It also has an ability that allows you to add your CHA to DEX for AC when in no or light armor (but only 1 modifier per level...but that usually get maxed in 2-3 levels before you can afford +CHA headbands). Still, despite these changes, it retains lay on hands, the mercies, divine grace, and spells. So you could very easily go tanky without any problems.

Irorian Paladin also stacks with the 'Oath against fiends' archetype, which allows you to split the bonuses of divine bond between your weapon, armor, and shield.

captain yesterday wrote:
i thought Mythic Adventure was Paizo's answer for Epic Adventuring

I agree. I'm pretty sure that the whole mythic thing was them actively AVOIDING epic levels. Because it allows you to grab all those sweet game breaking thing at a potentially low level as long as your GM gives you the mythic tiers.

David knott 242 wrote:

Actually, that would be a reason to defer doing epic levels. If levels 12-20 have problems, then those problems only get worse at level 21+.

Further agreement

Generally, epic play is avoided since any disparities will only continue to grow. In normal play, I can get the right set of traits, feats, and stats together to make a fighter that has a will save that makes him more reliable than the wizard (Since he can also qualify for the reroll from improved iron will). Heck, since a lot of that stuff can be front loaded, he actually has the will save of a WIS-focused cleric until mid levels!

But after that, the ways to make up any differences (dex/wis/con boosting items, save boosting items, traits, feats, etc) become harder to come by. Thus, your bad save becomes unsalvageable, particularly with the more brutal DCs found in epic levels. The wizard will always die of poison, the fighter will always be dominated, and the barbarian will always be blasted with a nuclear fireball.

Making the crazy awesome abilities (yay swift warrior! yay mythic vital strike!) independent of the level system allows us to enjoy them while we can still make characters well rounded.

Imbicatus wrote:

Heavy Armor for AC. Or change your mystery to Lore, Nature, or Lunar for CHA to AC(and reflex or CMD) instead of DEX.

Noble Scion for CHA to initiative.

Irorian Paladin for CHA to AC up to class level. Also Paladin bonus to saves.

Belt of Mighty Hurling for STR on ranged attacks.

Irorian is interesting, since it adds CHA to your DEX bonus. But nothing necesarily means you have to even have a DEX bonus. Thus, CHA would technically replace it in that case (also, with CHA to save, it can do the same thing to reflex).

Of course, Irorians can only do the add CHA to DEX thing when they are in light or no armor. So not doubling up isn't entirely to your advantage early on (Since again, it only converts 1 CHA modifier per level; caps fairly early, often by level 6 with the highest starting CHA and a +2 headband, but that still doesn't help you 1st level)

Ascalaphus wrote:

If you have two enemies fighting each other and they have a hard time damaging each other, interesting things can happen;

- They resort to more maneuvers, even if not skilled in them (since the AoO isn't quite so scary anyway). If you tie up an opponent you can use Coup de Grace attacks...

- They become interested in recruiting a third party (read: the PCs) who are better equipped for this sort of fight.

- They start trying to use their more circumstantial SLAs and such to seek an advantage.

-they kill an angel (that they are built to fight) and use his sweet +3 Holy Cold Iron Longsword to turn their enemies into thinly sliced delicacies.

But yeah, DR is not something to simply get through. It represents that their flesh is tougher than that of a mortal man. I mean, would you believe that werewolves couldn't go around 'rough housing' with attacks that would kill a human?

Of course, going back to my point above- a werewolf with a decent level could take the eldritch claws feat, making their attacks count as silver. This would help to make them an 'alpha' among their peers, since their slightest grace tears through everyone else. Definitely something flavorful to put on a BBEG werewolf trying to keep control of a freshly infected village- he can keep the whole mystic of the 'dangerous beast' even when they are all the same creature.

Or the other werewolves could just grab the silverware. Certainly another story telling opportunity, since you have to ask why that werewolf you just killed needed so many silver arrows and daggers....

GM Xabulba wrote:
lemeres wrote:

I'm am just going to leave this here:


Thanks, my search-fu was weak.

Don't worry. The FAQ section can be rather difficult to look through in the beginning since it is listed by book (and you might not be sure the applicable book for how things interact), and it defaults to FAQ about the website itself, so you might not even realize that it has what you need.

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You could always suggest Archaeologist archetype bards for the rogue, since that archetype is a skillmonkey, sneaky, has access to the trap related stuff rogues do (I think magical traps might be a problem though; I forget if there are options to deal with that), and provides at least some arcane support.

But as Dr Deth said, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I also like paladin as a healer, because they have restoration as a first level spell. Besides raw damage (which they can take care of in spades with lay on hands and a wand of CLW), that seems like something that is often essential for keeping thing running smoothly. Of course, their mercy ability also helps to take care of a wide variety of conditions as well.

bigrig107 wrote:

No, if you multiclass out of Druid, it doesn't progress.

Now, Boon Companion would add four levels to your effective Druid level.
So, Druid1/Bard 4 would have a 5th level companion. Unfortunately, it can only go up to 5th, unless you start adding more levels of Druid on top of that.

There are other things that can add further, like the beast rider feat for half-orc, which gives new AC options and adds a +2 to the level.

But yeah, things like that tend to end up very situational, and still end up not covering everything.

But there is one solution-4 levels of cavalier and the Horse Master feat., which lets you use all your levels for effective druid level. And the fun part is that small cavaliers get wolves as their default mounts, and later dogs at level 4 (dogs have better strength compared to a wolf that was kept at medium size; most keep them medium so you can ride them in any place that your larger party members can go)

How do you like the idea of running around on a dog and swinging a lance about?

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I'm am just going to leave this here:


JoeJ wrote:
lemeres wrote:
You would want to buy/tame morepowerful creatures as you level though. A tiger might be worth considering at mid levels, even if you have to use actual actions to issue order.

You might have to go find your own tiger, though, whereas trained guard dogs should be available in any decent sized town.

Also, a tiger might not be allowed in to most of the towns you visit.

Fair enough. Not everything is available everywhere, and it would be unusual for Smallville to have a collection of T-rexes for you to buy.

I will say that there are set prices for a lot of stuff, but unfortunately, a lot of that gets a bit wonky balance wise. I mean, 1st level parties often pool their money together to buy Wands of CLW. But if they did the same to buy a CR 4 combat trained tiger...... for a lower price (500)? yeah, wonky.

Still, no reason why you can't play the necromancer's game and turn CR appropriate encounters into pets. This is particularly possible with the animal speaker, since it gets the wild empathy class feature as a performance, and it can also just straight up talk that T-rex out of eating you guys.

The 'something else' required for that would be needed for leveling making it an animal companion. I would not use it for combat, since again, it doesn't scale at all, and the fact that it isn't an animal companion means that you can't use handle animal as a free action to get it to do known tricks. As in, you need to spend actual actions any time you want it to do anything.

But other than that, yeah, it is generally allowed to keep animals and just use handle animal checks. You might question its usefulness at this point. Generally, it has a decent enough perception check, and scent allows it to detect things coming into 15-60 feet of it depending on wind (30 usually). So it is...pretty much what guard dogs are used for in real life. Just consider it a rather finicky piece of equipment that needs a specific skill to use.

You would want to buy/tame morepowerful creatures as you level though. A tiger might be worth considering at mid levels, even if you have to use actual actions to issue order.

If you are really interested in all this, you might want to consider the Animal Speaker archetype. It actually give you an option to speak with a specific type of animal (like the Speak with Animals spell) at will, and the number of types you can speak with increases with level. It also doesn't look like it replaces too many important things, and gives you summon nature's ally spells to your list (and spells known it seems?). And you get a performance to summon multiple rat swarms at a time....

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First of all, the vestigial arm discovery wouldn't really have anything to do with multiweapon fighting, since you cannot get extra attacks from those arms (a lot of threads and an eventual, very wordy FAQ about that). But back toy our general point.

Anyway, no matter how you argue 'how it should work', spell combat does explicitly say you can't use 2 handed weapons.

Spell combat wrote:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

While the rule was written under the assumption of 2 arms, it still says it quite clearly. For it to say otherwise would require an extensive rewrite for a scenario that includes fringe options and includes methods that the developers did not want in the first place.

You could still use 2 of your hands to 2 hand a 1 handed weapon though. Nothing really stops that, as far as I can see (I would not push the issue though; the devs will most likely shut any grey areas like this down, since again, they don't like it. You try dealing with people trying to twist the rules on this forum, and see whether you end up cheery)

It is possible in PFS, but as a ranger you need to be level 7 before you can do it, as well as a neutral character.

This is due to the feat called Monstrous Mount. This feat gives you additional options that include magical beasts.

Unfortunately, one of the prerequisites for the feat is an effective druid level of 4. That means you ether need to wait until level 7 where your EDL would by 7-3=4, or you need to take boon companion to make up the difference between you EDL and actual level.....and take up your only feat between when you can otherwise qualify for Monstrous mount and level 7....

Anyway, you can see the stats for the worg RIGHT HERE as long as you click the 'monstrous companions' tab. Unfortunately, it does not grow large in size, which is rather important for the whole trip thing they have going on. Its stats also end up a little worse than a large sized wolf's (I know I am comparing it a lot to a large wolf...but again, with the level problems, you would be able to get a large wolf first). It does get a 'fearful howl' 1/day, which is a 30' cone of the fear universal monster rule. That would cost another feat though.

LazarX wrote:
Someone once said that First World summoners can have their eidolon out while using their Summon SLA's but I haven't found the text to support it. Can someone point out where I missed that?

Yeah, I was confused about that before.

The best explanation I've found (which you can read RIGHT HERE)is that it replaces the normal summoner SLA, but does not go anywhere near the lengths to add in restrictive language, or even say that it 'otherwise works like the normal summoner SLA'.

So that means it defaults to rather normal summoning SLA rules- full round action, rounds/level, and doesn't care a lick about whether your eidolon is out or not.

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Tomos wrote:

Don't forget that if you summon Pugwampis that the GM should avoid metagaming them. Just like PCs, bad guys need to identify the threat before they reasonably change tactics.

An enemy isn't going to stop paying attention to the size-large Barbarian in their face to attack some little dog creatures for no reason. They need to know what a Pugwampi is and know that it has an aura of unluck to identify it as a threat. Otherwise, it's just a silly little dog-thing. How many bad guys have ranks in Knowledge: Nature? Not many I'd wager.

Eh, since you don't get the minutes per level, you have to summon the ugly little things at the start of the fight. So I would imagine that any intelligent foe would get suspicious if you bothered to summon 2-5 nonthreatening little dog people.

But that can actually be an advantage. Again, you are summoning 2-5 of the things, and the best tactic is to have them spread over the whole battlefield. That means that enemies have to actually waste their time chasing the buggers down and attacking them. They have to divide their own forces around the battlefield too. So that means that your party has time to attack and set up spells (Save or Suck Wizards rule in this environment).

You need to think of them less as combatants, but more like nodes to maintain a fantastic debuff spell. In the end, they are all EXTREMELY expendable, and should just spend their time running (can you ready action a withdraw?), taking pot shots with arrows, or doing something useful like flanking or aid another.

thejeff wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Historically speaking, the widespread deployment of the musket ended the usefulness of swords and armor. There was still a value in pikemen, until they invented staggered firing lines and paper cartridges, but only because pikemen were cheap enough to train.

It's that part that bothers me. Golarion gets around it by saying they weren't widespread, essentially just because. But then crams hundreds of years of military technological development into one small country in a short timeframe with no one outside bothering to care. And apparently no one ever actually using these things in war to see how effective they are.

Well, while it is possible for shoot a lot at once (with a lot of extra damage since you shoot so well-dex to damage), that takes several levels and feats (and that is just for pistols; you have to be a specialist to do this with muskets). Combined with their extraordinary cost, and it is hard to get very many people with that skill. So you mostly have people plinking 1d8 or 1d10 every other round (remember, it takes a standard action normally to reload 1 handed, and full round for 2 handed), and it only hits for touch at a rather close range. Past that, they are just terrible bows.

Now compare that to the various rays from casters can do. I use rays here, since they work somewhat similarly (touch AC, only works at a certain range, standard action, etc). Even bad wizards can shoot rays of frost infinitely (2 rays of frost means 2d3, or 3 damage over 2 turns, which is fairly close to a pistol's 1d8=4.5 and musket's 1d10=5.5, and it is completely free to use. And moderately good wizards (survived to level 3) can blast out Scorching Rays, which is a straight 4d6 or 14 damage. And those rays can have other purposes, such as the ray of enfeeblement.

And beyond that, casters have a much longer history of changing entire battlefields. It would take a very, very long time before guns could properly take a similar role on the battlefield, since it would require advanced firearms to both exist and produced at a cost that couldn't hire a whole darn army (Well, 4,000 would mostly get a crowd of peasants with maybe spears; still, it would wipe out 1 guy with a rifle).

So currently, guns are mostly the purview of specialist with extraordinary skills that can take on dragons by themselves. And a few people will find that cool, try to copy that, and most likely fail horrible (although a few will go on to become new specialists). Rinse, repeat, wait for someone to make better guns at reasonable prices.

Onyxlion wrote:
I love this paladin archetype, have you pondered any non-multiclass build ideas?

I'll personally say that I was a bit wary of why you can't just be a paladin in light armor with a 2 handed weapon. Sure, the offense is somewhat different, but this archetype allows a more flexible code and you can use your replacement for smite on anything (and spend ki to get through that DR). So it was a fair enough trade.

Divine bond looks nice (getting through some alignment DR without spending smite, great), but it is not a complete loss if you switch it to armor boosting with Oath against Fiends.

ChainsawSam wrote:

Having an Eidolon with crap hit dice and BAB.


Yes, someone else who truly GETS that joke.

Anyway, yeah, from the perspective of 'normal' summoner builds, it seems like a straight downgrade, since they rely so much on eidolons. And it certainly lacks the overpowering ability of the master summoner with multiple standard action summons.

But being able to completely shut down an entire battlefield with a low level summon? That is priceless. Pugwampis are a fantastic option since they are basically an Area of Effect, no save Misfortune hex. That you could summon 1d4+1 of with the right build.

The summoner itself can serve well as a caster with pugwampi support. Their spell list still has some of the regular battlefield control mainstays, and even the low level spells suddenly becomes more threatening when you suck at saves (grease, create pit, and glitterdust are fine examples of what you could use).

And interestingly, as an NPC, you could also throw in some of the low level monsters with 'pathetic' DC's along with the First Worlder and have them present real threat to the party. Remember all those creatures with Poison DC's at around 14? I wonder how many of those we can throw in while staying at APL? A dozen or two? I wonder how long it will take before they start rolling near 1's and just failing those saves.

And if you actually got serious, and tried doing things like summoning T-rexes with their high grapple checks and 'meh' AC for the inside of their gullets? Could you say that you could reliably avoid getting swallowed and missing your stabs to get out when you have to roll twice and take the worse result?

Lynceus wrote:

Ok, something I'm curious about is how these two features interact:

Confident Defense (Ex): At 1st level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, an Iroran paladin adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. This ability replaces his proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.


Prophetic Armor (Ex): You are so in tune with your primal nature that your instincts often act to save you from danger that your civilized mind isn't even aware of. You may use your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) as part of your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma, instead.

If I remember correctly, you usually can't double up on the same stat.

There are, of course, ways around it depending on the language. Dragon Ferocity, for instance, says that you "gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus". As in, you do not gain .5x your strength bonus, but a bonus that JUST HAPPENS to be equal to to .5x it.

Oh, and because I also love throwing monkey wrenches, Osyluth Guile also lets you add your CHA as a dodge bonus (unsure if it stacks here). And the fun part is that Iroran Paladins can lie and poison all they want, since they get to write their own code!

Actually, you might have a point with the oracle thing. It replaces DEX with CHA, and then adds CHA to DEX. My cautious side errs towards 'no'... but again, MONKEY WRENCHES!

Nicos wrote:
Scythia wrote:
CrazierLeech20 wrote:

So, I see pathfinder broke all semblance of realism with flintlock weaponry. 6 seconds to reload a a flintlock weapon is insanely fast by real world standards. Is there really no rule against free action early firearms reloading?

I know, right? They were doing so good realism wise, what with the guano and sulphur transforming into a firebomb, guys getting angry enough to grow horns and buying extra lives with a diamond. So sad to see them throw all that realism away by making guns useable.
They could have gone in the diferent direction, making, for example, one shot every 6 second to be something meaninful.

...and any concealment or blurr effects at all would render them completely useless.

Dragonflyer1243 wrote:
Sohei doesn't really optimize for an unarmed monk. It does allow them to get Brawling armor, but so do bracers of armor, and Sohei stops advancing the monk's unarmed strike at 4th level, leaving it at 1d8 damage. This is because the Sohei is meant to allow monks to use martial weapons, not their fists like most monks.

Not really....the brawling armor property specifically says this:

Brawling wrote:
The wearer of brawling armor gains a +2 bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, including combat maneuver checks made to grapple. Her unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. These bonuses do not apply to natural weapons. This special ability does not prevent the wearer's unarmed strikes from provoking attacks of opportunity or make the wearer's unarmed strikes count as armed attacks. The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor.

Unless the bracers of armor specifically say they qualify as light armor (which I do not see in their description), then only sohei can enjoy brawling. And that is why they can be just as great with unarmed strikes as they are regular weapons.

EDIT: Looked up the relevant supporting details. Here is Jason Bulmahn weighing in on the matter in a thread discussing the book where brawling came out.

Fomsie wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Sir Dante wrote:

Sadly then you lose the movement speed and wisdom to AC bonus, though armor usually is a lot better but in this case it's only light armor.

Almost might as well then go Brawler/MoMS :( but on the other hand still has some of the monk tricks left.

Mithral medium armor.

Still loses the movement and non proficient so the possibility of ACP being applied can be a problem.

Now Celestial (Chain) Armor is nice, sure you still lose the Wisdom bonus to AC, but you just pump your Dex over Wisdom anyway in this case, and you get the Fly 1x day. Assuming your DM allows you to upgrade named items, of course. (No joy in PFS in that case)

It is actually not hard at all to grab mithral medium armor. In fact, it only requires a single trait: Armor Expert.

This is due to the fact that the penalty for nonproficient armor use is to apply the armor check penalty to your attack rolls. If ACP is 0, then the penalty is 0.

Mithral reduces ACP by 3. Armor expert reduces it by 1. That means you can grab any metal medium armor other than chainmail or Four-mirror (which each have an ACP of -5).

Not sure if they qualify for brawling either though, even with mithral.

Depends on the source of extra arms, in part.

The most common way I know of for PC's to gain extra arms would be the alchemist discovery. But, due to a long and drawn out series of rule forum threads, a FAQ have been made that says you only get 2 arms worth of attacks with it (as in, sure, you can use it to attack, but one of your normal arms has to stay put during your attack)

But if you ask me for anything more in detail than that as a prerequisite for 'having to' use MWF? *shrugs* Where are you seeing all these 3+ armed characters?

Rudy2 wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
I wonder what races would be best choices? Aasimar could work of course, as could halfling. Halfling's a bit annoying in the damage output department but pretty great in the defence department.
I wouldn't consider halfling, to be honest; this guy's defensive capabilities (at least after the first few levels) will be high enough already. A Halfling version will be unkillable, perhaps, but he'll just be ignored by enemies. Need to pick a race for damage potential.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, since Risky Striker puts things more in the halfling's favor. With a feat that is basically a second power attack against large and bigger foes (which, quite honestly, are fairly common at higher levels since the design principles tend to think "High CR=Bigger" a lot of the time), they can be quite threatening.

Anyway, great catch on the Oath against fiends. While I am not entirely a fan of the armor boost (it is not as great as weapon enhancement), you are right that it does remove just about the only things shackling you to unarmed strike (not to say unarmed strikes are bad, but this archetype is just not equipped to make them 'great'). Makes this an excellent platform for a reach build (hey, they already have unarmed strike)

chaoseffect wrote:
I don't really see how a single medium corpse in a 5 foot square is really that difficult to maneuver around... you take one normal or slightly larger than normal step and you're past it.

Eh, as someone that works outside, even the 2 inch stub of some cut down underbrush can make difficult terrain (Well, when the whole place is overgrown so there are hundreds of them in the field). Basically, stepping on the arm, or the edge of the torso will make you stumble enough that you might not be able to charge.

I'll agree that you there should be some simple way to get over this though, since it mostly just takes a well placed step. Maybe an acrobatic check to get over such things when it is from medium creatures? It should be a small DC, but noticeable enough that someone with no ranks might roll badly on it (so they either take acrobatics, or they simply just assume it will be difficult terrain).

prototype00 wrote:
lemeres wrote:
The best unarmed monk in terms of raw damage? The sohei.

I respectfully disagree. The best pure unarmed monk in terms of damage is a Catfolk, or Human with Racial Heritage (Catfolk) monk with the Nimble Guardian Archetype.

Being able to self buff and turning yourself into a dire-tiger gives you the following:

1: 5 natural attacks on a charge, 4 of them claws.

This is great as with feral combat training, you are basically doing 4 unarmed strikes at full BaB, and you can tack on dragon style e.t.c.

And get this, they qualify naturally for improved natural attack. So bump them up even higher, damage wise.

2: Large Size

+4 to strength and +4 to natural armor is hard to argue with, and guess what, with large size, your unarmed strikes just increased their damage again!

So TL:DR, more unarmed strikes at higher BaB than a normal monk would get, higher damage unarmed strikes (not stopping at 1d8 like the Sohei, and you can buff it with improved natural attack)..

And you're a giant tiger. Just putting that out there.

Or you could just give in to the dark side and become a Monk/Druid like I keep suggesting to everyone. :)


Not saying your points of the build's effectiveness are not true, but is that still an unarmed build? Or is it a natural attack build?

Plus, while it can be awesome, I don't think most people are looking to be a tiger when they are going for a build built around punches and kicks (at least a nonanthropomorphic one; I might not like Kungfu Panda, but unfortunately, due to the relative scarcity of martial arts movies in the major market these days, I suppose that it would have a large place in newer generations).

The best unarmed monk in terms of raw damage? The sohei.

The sohei has two main advantages over normal monks that allow them to do tons of damage- they can flurry in light armor, and they have weapon training.

Firstly, I will discuss armor. Now, this seems like it would merely increase a monk's defense (well, in reality it only simplifies it; you don't have to be MAD in order to get decent AC, and as such you can focus more on strength), but in fact, it creates a new item slot that can give you a rather nice boost. This is because of the Brawling armor property.. While this was likely designed as 'a nice thing that monks can't have', the sohei is in the right position to take full advantage of it. This armor property adds a straight, untyped, 'stacks with everything' +2 to attack and damage. Another interesting facet of this is that the cost of +1 Brawling armor is about the same as a +1 Amulet of Mighty fists (although it gives you twice the bonuses to attack and damage, and even gives you +1 AC). But that is just a nice little side benefit that helps you tide yourself over until your funds increase.

The second reason why sohei can do a ton of damage is because they have weapon training. This weapon training closely mirrors the fighter's, and overall gives you a +3 to attack and damage in the first weapon group you pick (monk weapons in this case). But the advantages of weapon training do not end there. Because it is literally called 'weapon training', the sohei can actually use items meant only for fighters that use the term as a prerequisite. I listed weapon training after armor because armor frees up your hands slot (normal monks tend to use bracers of armor), which allows you to grab Gloves of Dueling. This item increases the bonuses of weapon training by another +2

As you can see, this archetype allows you to get a +7 to attack and damage ON EVERY HIT through class features and items that a normal monk will never see. On a class that focuses to have on the tons of attacks from flurry, this can add a lot of damage. This also means that even your standard action attacks using 3/4 BAB can hit extremely hard and hit very accurately.

The only downside I can think of with the sohei is that it loses stunning fist, and thus it must wait for FREAKIN' ever to qualify for Dragon's Ferocity (the one that gets you 1/2 of your STR as bonus on each hit).

Rudy2 wrote:

I only learned about this archetype the other day; it's the only archetype that isn't listed on d20pfsrd, probably for legal reasons with the name, which is probably why it's not well known. (Link for anyone reading who doesn't know what we're talking about)

It actually has a lot of potential, simply by dipping one level in Sohei, who can flurry of blows in light armor. It has even more potential if your DM allows levels between Monk and Iroran Paladin to stack to determine unarmed damage, due to the Monastic Legacy feat.

Try "Enlightened Paladin" as your search term.

But yeah, it is fairly decent. It even retains lay on hands, for extra tankage.

Not sure how well it does MAD-wise compared to a sohei, but yes, their AC can be fairly good. With a conservative 14 CHA at the start, and then seeking out a +6 headband (hey, it adds to saves too), you can be as sturdy as a paladin in full plate without any of the trouble.

Other than the fact that it is unarmed strike-centric (which might not rub well with some people), it is a fairly interesting archetype that allows a lot of flexibility (its replacement for smite works on anything, and you even write your own code) and still keeps a lot of what people love about paladins.

CrazierLeech20 wrote:

So, I see pathfinder broke all semblance of realism with flintlock weaponry. 6 seconds to reload a a flintlock weapon is insanely fast by real world standards. Is there really no rule against free action early firearms reloading?

Eh, but if it was realistic, it would take 60 seconds/ 10 rounds to reload (and you get it down to 20 seconds/~3 rounds with rapid reload/cartridge). They wanted something actually useful. And they stuck with flintlock, since they would rather not skip from 'bows and spells' to 'gatling gun' without any steps in between.

Tacticslion wrote:
Boiling water or even steam or gaseous water would work for chaos water under that paradigm.

Paradigm? Logic? Sense? No. Now it is all spilled milk. (edit- also no consistency with one's own words)

*tip milk* CHAOS FOR LIFE!

Suichimo wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:
This dude is becoming the new Drizz't pc....everyone wants to make one and soon people will start getting sick of it.
I have no idea who he is. I do have my own spear wielding badass to idealize though, Yukimura Sanada from Sengoku Basara. Unfortunately, I'll never play it because I hate the idea that I can't attack anything next to me and, at best, I would have to take a feat that allowed me to do so or, at worst, have to get a house rule to allow me to do so.

Eh, during your turn, it is a 5' step to get back into position (ie- about the same thing as if the enemy took a 5' step away from you), and out of your turn, you could easily just grab something like armor spikes (there was a lot of FAQ confusion about those a while back; general point, if I remember it- no, you can't use a greatsword and then TWF it with armor spikes. Using them to smack casters that want to get cute is still fine).

Anyway, it is a small price to pay to turn yourself into an obstacle 25 feet across. This is because you have 10 feet of reach on either side, and your own 5' in the middle. That 25' across circle is where nothing can cross without giving you a free attack. Either that, or they waste their movements trying to go around you. That can give you a lot of sway in controlling enemy movements.

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Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:
Arizhel wrote:

#44 - You are unusually short, granting you all the standard traits of a Small creature.

  • Small creatures gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. Although not listed under Small, under Fly you will find the small creature also gain +2 on their Fly skill.

    #53 - You possess the scent special ability.

  • The Scent ability is kind of long, so I spoilered it** spoiler omitted **...
  • Would the Small Size alternate ability cause a Tiefling's speed to be reduced to 20 feet? It is the default speed of small creatures.

    No, there are plenty of small races with 30 feet (goblins and grippili). The slow speed of the core small races was merely a design choice, as much as the speed for dwarves was.

    For the typical traits of a small creature, you can look here.

    Fromper wrote:
    Hmmm... I'm thinking the spell names could be Organize and Randomize. But obviously, they don't exist yet, so nothing for PFS.

    I also notice that one of the material components for these spells is (un)holy water.

    Unfortunately, that might be hard for the law/chaos axis. Lawful water is an ice cube, and chaotic simply involves you knocking over the cup.

    While there are probably many ways to increase your pool, and maybe even use thing that spawn such as shadows or vampires..... ultimately, a single person can't do this alone.

    That is what minions are for. The most obvious method would be simply to start an academy or necromancers or the like and churn out enough to challenge a proper army. Of course, that has the problem where you have to HIDE a secret academy of necromancers (which is hard, since most of the people who agree to join some illegal secret cabal are also the ones that, at some level, are least likely to have the restraint needed for such a cause). Going about this would require a lot of time as you used the most conservative (and often slowest) methods possible. Of course, you would likely aim to be a lich, so time is not exactly a problem.....

    Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. Even one of the most powerful necromancers in the setting, the Whispering Tyrant, had to resort to using living orcs as the bulk of his military power. Other compromises, like summoning demon lords/armies, making pacts with dark forces from beyond the stars, and the like are simply the kinds of things you would need to do in order 'win'.

    Bandw2 wrote:
    Rudy2 wrote:
    Bandw2 wrote:
    so the fluff on that guy punching me, was he punched me in the face, but it didn't phase me at all.
    I like your interpretation, but the monk AC bonus also applies against touch attacks, which doesn't work with that story.
    hit with a shocking grasp? nah just redirect the electricity around vulnerable areas. fire? you can sit on coals. a deadly curse? witch, i make my own destiny.

    I'm pretty sure there is a monk-ish paladin archetype that actually does that last one. It lets you ignore anything that says 'roll twice, take the worse result', which would be the misfortune hex and misfortune revelation for dual cursed oracles (other stuff too, but those are major character options there).

    The Iroran Paladin doesn't get enough love. The only bad thing about it is that it does unarmed strikes without flurry of blows/enough bonus feats to master TWF. Still has enough room to do rather large damage with that 'light' weapon though....

    Artanthos wrote:
    Vose wrote:
    I want to make a spear fighter around the spear dancer feat. Basically I want a oberyn martell like fighter, any advice on how to do this as optimal as possible.

    I have a spear fighter. He's currently unarmored but remeber, Sohei can still flurry while wearing light armor.

    A few modifications to add mithral medium armor + proficiency should give you what you are looking for.


    Of course, sohei monks always deserve some recognition when it comes to discussing reach builds.

    I would have gone with a more strength based build (I don't know the point buy used in the build, but 16(14+2)/14/14/10/14/10 is prefered for a 20 point buy). I also would have gone with armor rather than the bracers due to the fact that sohei can grab a rather nice item for that slot: Gloves of Dueling. That item, usually only seen on fighters, works for them since they have 'weapon training' and it is named as such for the purposes of items. That brings a straight +2 to attack and damage right there.

    Plus, having normal armor is always simpler than the stat, buff, and magical item dependent nature of unarmed monk AC (although it falls a couple of AC short at the higher levels). Removing that from the mix allows more focus on strength.

    Well for one, ninjas and monks have their ki pools scale with their levels. Both have 1/2 their level+some mental stat.

    Gunslingers only have their mental stat. Sure, they have a couple of ways of getting it back, but it still pales in comparison (especially against a hungry ghost monk, or any monk with ki leech).

    If you are going to try bring some kind of flavor justifications, then my answer would be that, as seen with the development of guns in magic-dead land of Alkenstar, necessity is the mother of invention. High level gunslingers develop ways to conserve their 'grit' because they have so little of it.

    Power attack and combat reflexes (obviously). Weapon focus and specialization (they are staples, and the focus is a prerequisite)

    Lunge is surprisingly effective for a reach build, although not in the way people usually envision it (since it only increases your threatened area during your own turn). You see, normally, when you attack with a reach weapon, enemies end up 10 feet away from you and just have to make a 5 foot step (which doesn't draw any AoO's) and full attack you. With lunge, however, enemies end up 15 feet away, which means they have to take a move action (so no full attacks unless they have pounce) and draw an AoO from you if they want to attack you. That is great defense right there.

    Plus, if you spend your 5' step, you can full attack the same kind of area with reach+lunge that a huge creature could if it didn't 5' step. That means you could end up doing a lot of full attack= a lot of damage for a melee character.

    You can never go wrong with save boosting feats as a fighter. Also, I tend to like going half-elf, since they have an option for getting +2 to will saves (and just grabbing the combat stuff I mentioned above +spear dancer, you would still have room, even if you aren't human). Half orcs are great too due to the sacred tattoo trait, which gives a +1 luck bonus to all 3 saves (maybe grab fate's favored trait to bring that to a +2 to all saves?). With a bit of investment like that, you could easily get a will save that is matching a high wis cleric's at early levels (a lot of this is front loaded), and still makes you more reliable than the wizard at higher levels.

    Artanthos wrote:

    Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Pin Down, Combat Patrol

    Nobody moves without the fighters permission.

    If you play a Lore Warden (they get up to a +8 to combat maneuvers) or a Brawler fighter (they get an ability that is basically Pin Down 2 levels early, and 1/2 their level as a bonus to Stand Still later on), then this is true, even if you are fighting big beefy dragons.

    Timebomb wrote:

    Well for one he would have to find a dead 18 HD creature to re-animate, any those aren't too common in civilized or uncivilized areas, dead or alive. Also remember that undead lose nearly all their nice abilities when animated.

    He also would have to be careful where he brings his horde/scary undead super-soldier. Necromancers happen to have a stereotypically bad reputation, and hiding a colossal skeleton is easier said than done. He would have to suffer the Role Playing consequences in an RPG

    As to what a Ice Linnorm would lose upon being animated, nearly everything. AC drops to 19 (7 dex, 10 NA, -8 size), DR drops to 5/bludgeoning, loses regeneration, loses SR, HP drops to 81, loses all skills and feats (except for improved initiative), loses all special abilites (yes, including the breath weapon), loses flight, BAB drops to 13, fort and ref become bad saves, claw attack damage increases to 2d8+str. That's all I think. In short bit becomes a pathetic shadow of it's former self (which his still terrifying to low level encounters, but much less so than and actual Ice Linnorm)

    Basically, it is the difference between a CR 17, 18 HD Ice Linnorm and a CR 9, 18 HD T-rex.

    That is the main balancing feature here- undeath causes a lot of the important, CR raising abilities to go 'poof'.

    Well, since the average party usually goes through this at least once or twice before they get to the point of plane jumping, could you have a psychopomp or two decide to fill their quota with people who have been 'skipping out' on the afterlife via raise dead/resurrection/etc?

    Of course, with the nature of a beaurocracy, a lot of them might be too busy with their own stuff for it to turn into a full out brawl with everyone in the room.

    Could you bribe some nosoi with candy and babbles to add to their tails? Always good for getting directions or info about where a BBEG's soul might be hiding while waiting for a resurrection as a Demon God (or whatever).

    Scott Wilhelm wrote:

    Realizing that it isn't possible to incorporate greatsword, slam, and claws into a full attack action, it might be worth considering the other avenue, that of dispensing with the sword and developing the natural attacks.

    If he has a slam, and he gets claws, then if he takes a level in Monk, since Monk Unarmed Strikes count as natural weapons, then he qualifies for the Multiattack Feat. He will get 2 claws, 1 slam, and 1 unarmed strike, 2 if he takes 2 weapon fighting, but then all his attacks will get a -4 instead of a -2, so he might not want to do that.

    If he already has Multiattack, now he might as well get a Mammoth Helm and get a Gore attack, that magic ring that gives you a Bite Attack, and a Tentacle Cloak that gives you a Tentacle Attack (2). So now his Full Attack Action is Slam, Gore, 2 Claws, 2 Tentacles, Unarmed Strike, Bite. They all get a -2 to the attack, and the damage is 8d4, for an average of 20 points of damage, which compares favorably with the greatsword.

    But, I am talking about the purchase of several magic items, and that might buy a lot of plusses to the sword instead. But with 8 attacks, even the ½ Strength bonus starts adding up, and when your Strength is augmented by items like a Bull Strength spell which stacks with an Alchemal Strength Mutagen, even ½ St Mod to damage adds up when applied to all those attacks. Also remember, 2 of those attacks get the full strength mod for damage: Slam, because it is the Vampires’ Primary Natural Attack, and the Unarmed Strike, because it’s a Monk Ability. Also, it was mentioned that plusses from the Amulet of Mighty Fists are more expensive than on a weapon, and this is the reason why. The enhancements on the AMoF apply to all 8 attacks, so this is an option that is worth considering.

    Also, there are other ways to get those Natural Attacks than through the cozening of magic items. Tieflings and Catfolk can get claws as racial traits, Half Orcs, Tieflings, and Goblins (to name a few) can get a bite as racial traits, and...

    A lot to deal with there

    1. I am not sure that unarmed strikes count for meeting prerequisites calling for natural attacks. They seem to mostly just get treated as natural attacks for effects that benefit them (greater magic fang, for example). I would need sources before I could accept that. And anyway, does he need to go for that? He has 3 natural attacks with the claws and slam, right?

    2. If you have that many natural attacks, it might just be better to skip out on the unarmed strikes. With multiattack, all of them would be hitting for the same almost the chance as the first unarmed strike, but only deal half of the strength and power attack damage. Hitting for full damage with the best hit chance seems more profitable to me. The only advantage unarmed strikes would have here would be to just have more hits (you didn't suggest anything like rogue or ranger though; classes with bonuses to each hit would be important for this, because otherwise it all falls on STR and Power Attack...which you are halving by mixing things up).

    3. While I agree the tentacle can be good (mostly as a single natural attack to get 1.5x bonuses; also for complementing reach weapon builds and even making alchemists viable grapplers), but why bring it up at all when it is useless to the thing you are suggesting?

    4. As far as I understand it, Feral Combat training is only useful for getting the natural attack to act like a monk weapon (you can flurry with it) and getting things like style feats or brawling armor to add benefits. I don't think it removes the penalties for secondary attacks during normal full attacks.

    Dazz wrote:
    As for prestidigitation being used to make a disguise...kind of. As you quoted, the materials it makes are pretty fragile, and so this this kind of disguise basically being facepaint, you could probably use it short-term as long as you kept anyone from getting too good a look at you. No specific rule though.. I think everything else you asked was covered.

    Well, there are still ways to use it for disguises. It can color objects, which can be rather useful.

    "Go and catch that guy in the red cloak! ....*umph*...oh, excuse me citizen. May I say that your yellow cloak looks fabulous?"

    It could also be useful since you could probably color dyes. Just grab a random jug of ink, and suddenly you can be sporting golden locks.

    You could also possibly fake veils and jewelry (well, the jewelry would be like...that plastic 'gold' stuff you buy kids; it would make you look poor, but maybe not as suspicious?)

    Let's look at the random weight and height table for the two races (only height figures shown)
    -male: 4 ft. 10 in. +2d10 in. (5 ft - 6 ft. 6 in.)
    -female: 4 ft. 5 in. +2d10 in. (4 ft. 7 in. - 6 ft. 1 in.)
    -male: 4 ft. 10 in. +2d8 in. (5 ft. 0 in. - 6 ft. 2 in.)
    -female: 4 ft. 5 in. +2d8 in. (4 ft. 7 in. - 5 ft. 9 in.)

    So overall, kitsune are about the same height as humans. Their weights are a bit lower, but that just means that their clothes might hang loose if they were fitted for their human for.

    My problem would be the tail personally. I'd imagine normal pants would be rather uncomfortable for that. And if you had pants meant to let the tail out, then there would be a large hole that made it look like you were preparing to show off a tramp stamp you were about to get.

    Skirts/kilts would solve that though.

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