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lemeres's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 3,216 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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What kind of sohei do you want to build?

Reach? High Power 2 hander? Unarmed? Finesse?

And are you going to go with archery style for the slayer, or TWF and just have the early game archery as a small back up? Of abandon that altogether and just grab something simple, like a 2 handed weapon.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Noble's Vigilant Pillbox has a serious ergonomic flaw (bolding mine):

"When activated, the white pearl detects poison in a 10-foot radius around the wearer, dulling to a dark gray if poison is within range. If swallowed, it grants the benefit of a delay poison spell."

AND

"The black pearl turns white if any invisible creature is within 10 feet of the wearer. If swallowed, it grants the benefits of see invisibility for 1 minute."

So if an invisible creature is around, the user has a big chance of swallowing the wrong pearl unless they memorized the locations or different sizes, and even then in the heat of the moment might get them mixed up. Plus, 10 feet isn't much range for warning of an invisible creature, especially since you probably can't be looking in your box all the time.

....because an invisible creature would be the best person to drug someone's drink.....

Heck, they could stash the supply of poison in someone's pocket later in order to frame them, which adds the just right kind of mayhem for assassination and politics.

The flaw also adds some fun, because the noble will then curse himself after taking the wrong pill, and he will then announce that 'someone suspicious and invisible is in the room' right after he turned invisible in front of everyone. Or he doesn't announce it, whatever, it doesn't change the outcome. People will immediately associate that noble with any invisible shenanigans that go on, and people would suspect that any protests from him was simply a poor ploy to throw off suspicion.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Well, that's up to the Game Master, of course, but the designer of that particular adventure series created a very humanocentric world and populated it accordingly. As he expressed it, "extremely unusual or monstrous races are likely to be troublesome. [...] It will be more difficult to infiltrate anything if you are travelling with a a minotaur, goblin, or serpent man for example. Tread carefully with these choices."
Ah, but while goblins would not be appropriate for the county in the setting, it can hardly be said that they are rare or uncommon in the world.

Huh? Sure it can. "Goblins are rare or uncommon in the world of Way of the Wicked." I just said it. It also happens to be true, as far as I can tell -- while there are some monstrous races that are rather common (and appear as recurring enemies of civilization), goblins don't get more than a passing mention.

Do not assume that Way of the Wicked is set in Golarion, or even that all Paizo products are set in Golarion. Paizo itself makes a very strong distinction between the Golarion setting and the Pathfinder ruleset. So the statement "Pathfinder is a game that is rather closely tied to its setting" does not ring true for me.

You never said that quote, that goblins are apparently rare in the WORLD, rather in the campaign's main country with its highly developed system of military and bureaucratic might (presumably- I don't know jack really). I just presumed that they were a plague in 'other places' based off of your statements so far and a vague memory of glancing over the player docs...like a year ago.

So alright, I am unfamiliar with this campaign, and I am allowing my knowledge of Golarion to bleed out too much. That still doesn't mean that there isn't room for creatures like tengu to exist (either that, or I am rooting for team evil since it is a bigger supporter of diversity. I'm sure hell could find a place for goblin orphanages, if only to use them as sweat shops).


Avatar-1 wrote:

I can't believe this hasn't been said yet.

BARBARIAN! RAAAAGE!

BARBARIAN ACT OUT WITH VIOLENCE ON HIS INSECURITIES THAT COME FROM THE FACT THAT PEOPLE TAKE HIS IGNORANCE ON ANOTHER CULTURE AS BEING DUE TO A LACK OF INTELLIGENCE

And more specifically, the savage dirty trick power could be both thematic and highly effective, since he literally uses cheap tactic in order to force the enemy into submission. It would be rather interesting to role play in a campaign focused around nobility, knights, and question on the nature of 'honor' and 'combat'.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Any class. Classes do not come with attached personalities.
I would just find it hard to play a character struggling with their weakness, who could solo the rest of the party at a moments notice while naked.

Plus, it is thematic. A person's way of thinking often influences the fighting style they choose. Will you rush forward and take care of the problem immediately? Will you hold back and bide your time until the enemy attacks so you can counter attack? Will you use mobility, stealth, and guerrilla warfare to protect yourself and your resources while making the other side waste theirs?

Your lifestyle has a major effect. The way that a knight fights is completely different from how a trained assassin fights, even if they have similar levels of skills and physical capabilities. Even looking at the classic 4 man line up, a wizard will crush with power, a fighter will get in, down and dirty, a cleric will bolster defenses and prepare them for a fight, and a rogue will try to find a way around the problem in the first place.

So choosing a particular class/build/role can help to reinforce the nature of the character, and helps to better get you into the mood of roleplaying that character. While the exact details are extremely flexible, trying to find a fit is important.

Also, some people like to create their characters in a different fashion- I love to just let my imagination run wild with a fancy class feature, and trying to imagine a guy that would use it. I am currently in love with the mutagenic warrior since it is born with a very obvious "Why?" Fleshing out the details from that is part of the fun of making character for me.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Well, that's up to the Game Master, of course, but the designer of that particular adventure series created a very humanocentric world and populated it accordingly. As he expressed it, "extremely unusual or monstrous races are likely to be troublesome. [...] It will be more difficult to infiltrate anything if you are travelling with a a minotaur, goblin, or serpent man for example. Tread carefully with these choices."

Ah, but while goblins would not be appropriate for the county in the setting, it can hardly be said that they are rare or uncommon in the world. It is just that the 'LG' nation has taken care of its 'undesirables'. I will acknowledge that Tengu might be troublesome in this adventure though, due to the notorious reputation of theft and trickery associated with them, which would lead to prejudice in such a humongous culture (plus, he has a face that is fairly recognizable...although I want to see a master of disguise tengu just slipping into noble parties and wooing the ladies without people realizing he is a bird person, which is oddly doable with the minor race penalty)

And I understand this is a 3rd party product, and that it may well not have anything to due with the game setting...it is still a compatible product, and Pathfinder is a game that is rather closely tied to its setting with a lot of its options (such as anything that had to be renamed on d20pfsrd), so the question of 'does it count?' can get muddied sometimes.

But with the general set up and background of the race, if the GM acknowledges that they exist, then to they should have at least have at least some decent geographical spread to them, both due to their noted racial character and some of their racial abilities. Sure, GM can decide to change those same details, or provide some extenuating excuse why they don't spread, but that is between the GM and players.


JohnHawkins wrote:

Personally given that the game is set in an alternate Britain and specifically calls out Oriental classes as not fitting in I would not play a Tengu it seems silly to me you would be the only one on the island which may also cause problems by making you easy to identify, I would use that and it would give you a lot of problems. But I am old fashioned and if it fits your group go with it.

Class any class can work, with those stats, as you say you don't know what the others are playing you can't fit around them. I recommend looking at the campaign traits seeing which crime inspires you designing a character idea which committed that crime and seeing which class fits the concept.

It is a good chance to play a Necromancer/Assassin/devil summoner which would not fit into a normal good aligned character

Are tengu that rare though?

Ignoring the fact that 'animal people' are everywhere, and crows are similarly everywhere (we aren't talking about lion men here), tengu have a relatively large presence in the 'pirat-y' areas of the setting (so they are not just an 'foreign' thing as you judge the monk), and they are noted as being adaptive survivalists that can easily adopt the culture of wherever they happen to be (heck, they even have a racial trait focused on learning languages, which seems to add to that).

So even if there is not a native population of tengu (and honestly, part of me wants to imagine that there is in fact clans that stick the the back alleys and ghettos), the character would not have any more trouble than say...a half orc.


boring7 wrote:
Honestly, I'm surprised you weren't just killed outright by the guards themselves. My first thought as a dumb guard who might get executed for failing in his duty is, "I better prove my worth by killing this mofo, presenting his/her head to the captain, and begging for my life."

At the very least, I would have personally seen to the fact that their knee caps were not in proper order.

I mean, there is a large warhammer RIGHT THERE. Even if they think it was better to rely upon a superior's discretion, there are basic precautions for these kind of things. Ones that are far more reasonable in a world with healing magic.


Pendagast wrote:
Froth Maw wrote:

The hammer was in a supply bag that also contained walnuts. If they had searched me, that would've been my excuse. They didn't search me though, because I have a 22 bonus on bluff and the ability that lets you re-roll once a day. Even if they had taken away my weapons though, I was a tiefling, so I could've just bitten her throat out and gotten the extra strength and power attack bonuses from only having one natural attack.

As far as escaping goes, there's political unrest now that the queen is dead, and anyone who wants to be in charge has a proven assassin at their disposal. The captain of the guard is probably going to break me out so that I can kill the council that stepped up in the queens place.

Also, I'd have used a dagger, but I wanted the extra crit, strength and power attack damage from the hammer for the coup de grace.

Ok now I want a video of you doing ANYThing with walnuts with a hammer THAT size… anything other than obliterating them that is.

If I remember, this was an elf queen in the original thread, right?

I am not saying nothing about elves specifically, but I would imagine that any guard that routinely has to deal with nobles would likely be used to unreasonable demands.

Again, sometimes, the Queen asks for things NOW, and damn the logistical problems. What does she care if it is not the right kind of hammer for her midnight snack. Just deal with it.

...although yes, the fact that this hammer was large enough to 2 hand might be at least a bit troubling. How did you even conceal that thing? Even I am stretched if you try to get me to bull some excuse for something like that. Surprise renovation?

Well, at the very least, you could fake desperation and incompetence to give a non-suspicious reason for 'why do you have a huge hammer?'. Whether they stop you, for your own good with the honest intention of helping you, is another matter.


Dual cursed oracle that uses oracle's burden to force others down to his level.

He feels a sense of superiority seeing others crippled by the conditions he has learned not only to live with, but to use as advantages.

It helps that it is a CHA caster with 4+int skills, which means it can do well enough on face skills like bluff.


I think that the reason why it was melee>caster is because one can still be a good caster with mediocre stats as long as you get the bare minimum to cast your spells (because spells are awesome), but mediocre melee stats means you are doing little to nothing (at least without using a ton of buffs that take time and resources while they could be applied to other party members, even if it is just your own animal companion if you took animal domain).

It also helps that a lot of cleric spells are things like buffs, summons, and healing. So they can easily be less reliant on things like DCs.

Also, wizards HAVE to be powerful to some extent, because without battlefield control, debuffs, and other things to act as deterrents, then they are going to get their bums handed to them by anything that gets close (at least with traditional wisdom). Clerics, on the otherhand, have armor, weapons, and a decent enough BAB that the words 'grapple check' still means that dice need to be rolled.

But onto the main thing of the thread- how about that fiendish vessel archetype for tieflings? While it is very obviously evil, but it only messes with with channeling and a single domain. In return, you get a free improved familiar at level 3. And two of the options are the ones that are favorites for this kind of things: Imps and Quasits. If nothing else, this method saves you on a bunch of feats.


The Indescribable wrote:
Alleran wrote:
FuelDrop wrote:
Hammers are vital for chiseling the gunk out of the bottom of the chamber pot. Nothing else will match that chiseled clean look for expensive china.

I'd call that "unlikely" and give out a -5 on the Bluff check.

What I'd do would involve taking a scroll of Shadow Weapon in with me, using it to manifest a greatsword or similarly large weapon that will do the trick, stab the queen to death in her sleep, and then dismiss the spell (essentially getting rid of a big part of the evidence). If somebody catches me afterward, I just babble something about how an assassin with a shadowy sword murdered the queen and if they hurry, they can still catch him. Or something.

I rather like this approach, nothing but the truth, though it would seem you'd be covered in blood in a room with only one entrance and exit... not that that's a particular problem for some classes.

Prestidigitation- Because Life (and other People's deaths) is all about the little things.

As I mentioned in the assassination thread up right now- prestidigitation solves a lot of the small but vital details important for assassins and serial killers.

-Cleans up blood
-Can soil things...presumably with that same blood from before- perfect for framing people
-Can change the taste of food and drink in order to hide less subtle but highly effective poisons.
-Can heat or cool 1 lb of nonliving matter- leave a 'warm' finger laying about in order to make investigators think that the victim was alive just a while ago. Perfect for alibis.
-Change the color of clothes. This is useful for quick disguises
-And much, much more!

And the part I love is that anyone can get this spell using the trifler trait, which gives it 3/day. And since the spell lasts for an hour, that is actually relevant. Heck, since it is an SLA, it is better than the regular cantrip in some ways since it lacks verbal and somatic components.

Also- I would have used a shadow pick instead of a great sword. Because A.)X4 crit for the coup de grace and B.) Because it retains the same WTF of a hammer assassination.


Pendagast wrote:
she wanted something fixed right now… with a hammer, while she was sleeping, by the maid, who told the guards she went in there to clean the chamber pot…. with a hammer.

Hey, I never said it was a good plan. It wasn't even my plan. And it is not like I knew the plan that was actually used. I am just saying that I could spin enough to justify the successful bluff check.

Plus, how are the guards supposed to know for sure that the queen is asleep? The queen might be lying in bed, unable to sleep because she is worried about the wobbly table that the chamberpot rests on.

Or the maid might have decided that she wanted to grab the chamberpot for disposal while she was going on to do some other task (maybe the queen complained about a raised nail in the floor boards of the ballroom that caught her dress). Honestly, as someone that has done menial labor while being overloaded with tasks, I can imagine a ton of ways to justify having a hammer while going into the royal bedchambers.


Pendagast wrote:
The Indescribable wrote:
less suspicious than a dagger.

On a maid??

Daggers are every where, they use them as tools, they use them to eat with…in reality a dagger is about as suspicious as a multitool is on a workman today.

a maid carrying a hammer?
that would be odd, and certainly not as concealable as a knife.

I don't exactly know what they ask of maids in this kingdom. I could possibly see the excuse that the queen made the unreasonable demand to fix a wobbly table leg RIGHT NOW.

Who would you be to argue based off of job description?

Anyway, going back to unreasonable demands- they could well have the right to make sure you don't have a dagger. Ignoring the obvious security issue, there is the fact that you shouldn't be eating on the job (since it is palace supplies).


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Lithoel wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Well obviously we are talking about werebear nobility.
An idea too good not to include. I have a mental image Beorn from the Hobbit appearing from nowhere and tossing opera chairs and attackers every which way...

For some reason, I feel that they should be Russian. Like....old Imperial Russian.

Which, given the way that the setting goes, could also mean a connection to Irrisen and that of course spells witches. So you could have an old, stern werebear noble that gained his position via military command and his wife, a winter witch.

Just throwing random ideas out there. I liked the images this all brought up.


Ignoring the legality issues, what are your thoughts on switching to hand crossbows and maybe grabbing some bolt slinger levels for dex to damage?

I am focused on hand crossbows, since they actually have rules for using them in TWF (they act like light weapons). In comparison, regular bows are called out as having -4/-4 penalties due to the rules set up by bow nomad.

Admittedly, as far as attack rolls go, it is 6 of one and half dozen of the other if you multiclass. The lost fighter levels restricts higher level mutagens and makes you lose the last bit of weapon training. So that is a net of -1 to attack in the switch.... in return for dex to damage with bolt slinger (which makes you a very SAD class).

You will also lose feats...but hey, you only need 1 vestigial arm for reloading with crossbows. Plus, I am fairly sure that you won't need double slice either, since bolt slinger just gives the bonus straight without any offhand language


kestral287 wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

The extra arm is not dominant, so it cannot be used to aim a bow.

Kasathas have four arms and they STILL need to take a specific archetype to use two bows simultaneously.

The extra arm is never aiming a bow. It's drawing and knocking arrows. The idea behind it being legal, in fact, relies on the fact that the extra arm not being dominant. It's never being used to make its own attacks.

Also, can you name or link the archetype you speak of? I can't find it

Yeah, Bow Nomad is a weird side thing because Kasathas are weird side thing. Because they are aliens, which, while perfectly fine to have them, are simply not that prevalent in a Golarion based setting due to simple logistics and how far the GM has to stretch to get them.

Plus, I don't know about you, but I find the practice of using a bow and arrow tends to require effort from both arms, particularly the long bow, which is infamous for requiring a lifetime of specialized training and conditioning.

I am not here to get into a big argument about handedness and how it interacts with TWF and specialized, near crippled limbs. I was just putting out the problems you could face as a possibility, and gave options (which might be even more attractive than regular bows) that would avoid this issue. If nothing else, the argument that spawned in this thread should serve as an example of the potential arguments it might cause.

And even if those arguments are not exactly fair....you have to admit that a GM faced with a flying machine gun might turn towards them. Don't give him the ammo.


Secret Wizard wrote:

The extra arm is not dominant, so it cannot be used to aim a bow.

Kasathas have four arms and they STILL need to take a specific archetype to use two bows simultaneously.

And their arms do not come with the ton of clauses and restrictions.

Anyway, I still think a mutagenic warrior 15/ bolt ace 5 is stronger, without any of the rules concerns.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
This thread is not about the magical defenses of a noble bear. I am disappointed.

Well obviously we are talking about werebear nobility.

So maybe have someone ready with versatile weapon to make everyone's swords act like silver.

DominusMegadeus wrote:
ReddestBaron wrote:
Bonus question: Would there be an equivalent of a metal detector (i.e. a person/entity checking out the magical properties of all items brought into the hall)?
A 1st level wizard could be hired on the cheap to detect magic all night. You'll probably want some stronger muscle (and magic) to back him up if anyone actually does bring in magic items though.

Wizard? No...a bard. Have the night's entertainment dedicate a song (with a selection of music to help create a code system) to anyone suspicious.


I am unsure if it is possible to TWF using bows using vestigial arms. This is because of a a FAQ that pretty much said 'no extra attacks' means 'no extra attacks'. While there may be arguments about the exact nature of this (are bows technically listed as 2 handed weapons?), it is at least safe to say that there is table variation.

Of course, that doesn't mean that all hope is lost for this general style. Switching to crossbows, particularly the hand crossbow, could allow you to do TWF, and then just have a single vestigial hand for reloading. Taking a 5 level dip into the new bolt ace archetype for gunslingers would allow you to get Dex to damage with those crossbows... which is pretty sweet in itself, and could serve as reason enough to switch builds even if your table allows twin bows.

Oh, and thanks secret wizard. I was wondering what feats to take for the reach fighter that I was planning which suddenly sprouted wings after ACG came out.


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What is not to get? They like the game balance shown in the early game, but they don't want to do E6 since they also want to play around with the cooler late game abilities you find with some classes.

Essentially, the reason why people want to do low magic is due to the fact that they are more used to the low magic nature of early levels.

Plus, while magic can be cool, a lot of people are in love with sword. Or axes. spears. just beating guys down with their bare hands. ETC.

And you can't discount the fact that you need more ingenuity and roleplaying to pull off crazy stunts without magic. It is a MacGuyver vs. James Bond thing. Sure, James bond always has some gadget to solve a problem....but there is just a romance to using only gum, string, and a nail file in order to make a jet engine.


Claxon wrote:
Undone wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Eh...thats not how I read Fortuitous functioning but I could be wrong. In either case I would still strongly suggest waiting on Fortuitous until you have a +2 Furious Courageous weapon. Honestly Fortuitious it still not that good even if you do immediately get to make a second attack since it requires an enemy to provoke an AoO in the second place. I don't know how your games are, but rarely does the enemy in the games I play perform an action that provokes an AoO. You would be reliant on forcing them to provoke by using greater trip or something similar.

That is how fortuitous works. I'm really not sure where you got it functioning like bad combat reflexes.

Or I'm reliant on simply... using a reach weapon... and going for the guy at the front. All the others provoke on their way toward me.

It's really rare (Large tall and huge creatures) to see a creature not provoke from a reach weapon unless they cast.

Or unless they just 5ft step, or use acrobatics, or ignore you and attack someone else.

There is a rather simple solution for the 5ft step bit. Just take lunge.

Normally, with a reach weapon, you end your turn 10 ft away from the opponent. That means they only need to take a 5' step to get to you. So they get their full attack and they do not draw an AoO.

With lunge, enemies end up 15 ft away from you. They have to move 10 ft to attack. That usually means no full attack, and they draw an AoO. It also reduces the number of monsters that can use their natural reach to get to you. So for the most part, any creature that wants to fight you pretty much gets hit with those 2 AoOs.

As a bonus, lunge with a reach weapon lets you full attack anything in a 45 ft wide circle. Even when you can grab pounce, that still sounds rather nice.

Anyway, for the original question- furious seems like the first priority, since it improves you attack rolls (which would be important for your AoO iterative..thing) and it allows you get a false +3 at a +2 price (since this is PFS, and level limits vs. available wealth at those levels are a large concern). After that, fortuitous, and then courageous.

Oh, and claxton- while having both CaGM and fortuitous eats up AoOs, I would imagine that a barbarian could afford at least a the basic belt of physical perfection by level 10. As long as you find some way to boost DEX, you can probably keep it at usable levels, getting up to 6 AoOs per round.


claudekennilol wrote:
Thanks, I wasn't asking so I could disregard the handle animal checks but rather so I could just talk to him and have him understand.

I think you can safely use simple commands and recognizable nouns.

"Fetch my sword"- when you are ambushed while you left your weapons in the other room
"Find Cathy"- A known, and possibly introduced, npc that has gone mysteriously missing (bonus since you might have to introduce everyone to your wolf- which makes you into an annoying dog owner. Good roleplaying).
"Eat the fat one first"- ambush my the lazy and corrupt local lord.

Stuff like that seems like it would not be too much of a problem. Just don't give it complicated commands or directions.


There are like....3-4....different kinds of outsider, all across the alignment spectrum, whose whole shtick is killing immortals.

Essentially, sure, you can mass produce immortality, but you can expect a whole host of inevitables, daemons, and psychopomps bursting down your door to shut you down. Throw in devils (due to aforementioned reasons, plus the fact that people signing contracts with devils definitely want a way out), and you have an entire corner of the alignment spectrum from the after life aiming for you.

Of course, you could technically say this is the modus operundi of the Whispering Way. They just believe only a few people of power an ambition should retain their free will while going on forever. Also, they don't care as much about the 'not rotting' part.


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Emmanuel Nouvellon-Pugh wrote:
lorenlord wrote:
Emmanuel Nouvellon-Pugh wrote:
lorenlord wrote:
How about assassinating someone 4 levels higher than you and then 'cleaning' the area by burning the entire complex to the ground?
Witnesses?
"Disappeared under mysterious circumstances" (immolated in said fire)
Good job. The only way you would be caught would be some sort of magical inquiry by what you've written, and speak with dead would be impossible if skeletal heat fractures are severe.

It would be particularly effective if you made the fire look like an accident, making all those deaths look perfectly natural.

It would be even better if the cause of the fire was faked to make it look like someone there (some one low level enough that no one cares, like a janitor) was doing something suspicious. The fantasy equivalent of a meth lab explosion, basically. The purpose of this would be to give anyone nosy a false conclusion so they would stop looking.

Obviously that method would not be possible with every assassination...but hey that kind of job has always been extremely circumstantial.

I don't have any particular stories of my own, but I know one interesting trick- prestidigitation seems like the duct tape of murder.

Seriously, think about it- it can clean up blood, it can soil other things (presumably with that same blood, in order to shift blame), it can disguise the taste of poisoned food, it can heat or cool 1 lb of matter (leaving a 'warm' finger behind so people think the person was alive a short while ago). Heck, it can even change the color of your clothes for a quick disguise and create cheap trinkets to leave as calling cards.

This spell takes care of all the little details...and successfully getting away with murder is all about the little details.

And anyone can grab it with the trifler trait. Although that only gives 3/day....that means 3 hours of these kinds of tricks. And the trait gives it as an SLA (no verbal or somatic components).


Sohei monks. This is due to the fact that they can flurry in armor, and they have weapon training (with the proper name and says that it works like the fighter class feature)

Armor might not seem like that big a deal for offense, but it is actually the key towards making the sohei a power house. The armor is an item slot in its own right, and allows you to move your AC enhancement (which would usually come from bracers of armor) into a different slot

First, there is an armor property, brawling armor, which should be a key tip for any unarmed build that can use armor. This property gives a straight untyped +2 to attack and damage on unarmed strikes.

Now, weapon training and the newly opened hand slot also goes together nice. This is because it qualifies you (due to its wording and confirmation from related FAQs) for gloves of dueling, which gives another untyped +2 to attack and damage.

Altogether that is a +7 to attack and damage (which makes the fact that their unarmed damage dice do not scale- static bonuses are almost always more important than dice). A fighter might get a +8 (since they have armor and weapon trianing too), but this has more saves, skills, and other tricks (for example, sohei have the ability to always act in the surprise round, even if they are clueless, and they get 1/2 their level in initiative).

Other tricks- Grabbing a spell like ability from Qinggong (ki leech is cool if you are ok with evil- it is a 0 ki sla that you can spam constantly and then use to get ki back from kills) qualifies you for casting feats like arcane strike (so another +1-+5 damage for a swift action). Of course dragon style is the choice for raw numbers, although pummeling style gives it to you more reliably.


Cap. Darling wrote:

A witch and her unicorn friend. There is no need for leadership feat the unicorn dosent need a Rules explanation to follow a NPC.

I would just assign the powers i wanted the maiden to have to her and put her on a unicorn with what ever stats i think the two would need. No need to look in the books for the rules to support somthing you know how should work.

True, leadership is more of a feat for players to copy the powers of a GM to a limited extent.

NPCs do not have to follow those rules, and they do not need to follow wealth by level either. The rules are there to show the constraints on random adventurers. You are using messiahs here. They get to bend a few rules.


BadBird wrote:
Bigguyinblack wrote:
If I am reading Sohei correctly they are losing a lot of Monk abilities in exchange for wearing light armor, keeping their mount alive, being able to use martial weapons, and getting Weapon Training. Weapon Training and gloves of dueling is sweet but it doesn't seem worth it. Especially if I have no interest in mounted combat. What am I missing?
A top-shelf weapon that gets Ki Strike, a nice little boost to combat prowess, and a big boost to initiative are worth an awful lot when it's all said and done. The mount stuff is like the monk stuff you give up for Sohei... it's cool, it can be useful, but in the end it's a sideshow. Whether it's worth it is up to you.

The only thing you give up for mount stuff is your fast movement (you couldn't get that anyway if you wear armor) and scaling unarmed strike damage (most sohei focus on weapons, and even the unarmed ones still gets awesome static bonuses from weapon training and the possibility of brawling armor and dueling gloves, for up to a +7 to attack and damage rolls).

At least, this depends on how you read the bonus feat thing. It was not written very clearly. It says you 'can' pick mount feats, but it doesn't give any structure to that. And the features doesn't say it replaces normal bonus feats. I've never been able to find a good answer for that. Consult your GM, I guess. If you can still get your normal bonus feats, then great. If not...then yeah, that part is a bit meh.

Anyway, most of the rest of the bonus stuff is replaced with: 1/2 your level on initiative and always action in the surprise round (stunning fist), spending 1 ki for 1 round of scaling enhancement bonuses (slow fall and abundant step), and weapon training (purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon).

And as it has been said, the weapons that get weapon training also get that nice little ability that lets you ignore certain DR. So after level 7, silver and cold iron weapons are just annoyances to you.


BadBird wrote:

I would guess a Sohei with a Nodachi would probably be the most effective straightforward monk; full two handed power attack and weapon training and a dangerous, simple to enchant weapon. Temple Sword until you can use a Nodachi at 6, light armor until wisdom + Monk AC + Bracers is the better option (or just light armor forever if you don't really have much wisdom). Anyhow a Human with dual talent works pretty nice - 18STR, 16WIS is quite doable.

EDIT: grabbing Scorching Ray with Qinggong should make it possible to stick it in a spell storing weapon.

Eh, why bother with the temple sword? And someone else said that sohei aren't good before they can flurry with their nodachi and such?

Are you all forgetting that the sohei can run around with a 2 handed 1d10 18-20/x2 weapon? In the early game, isn't that one of the best things- period?

Actually, do you even want to flurry before level 6? Early on, the -2 penalty from the fake-TWF is a rather large number, and your fake full BAB doesn't make up for it. So why not just use a regular 2 handed style (with the mighty nodachi) and just hold back on flurry until after your fake full BAB catches up and you have the nice little bonus from weapon training?

Anyway, I will say that sohei are an option for better offense than defense, even if you are going unarmed. The light armor mostly just makes early game more survivable. A tricked out unarmored monk (even with only a modest 14 wis) eventually begins to win out in AC come mid levels. But sohei still may find it better to use armor because of the simple fact that it opens up an item slot. Since they get their AC enhancement from armor, they can then possibly grab gloves of dueling for an extra +2 to attack and damage with your weapon training (not sure whether those are practical in PFS though due to price/availability). And if you use unarmed strikes, then you definitely want to try to grab brawling armor, which also gives an untyped +2 to attack and damage.

EDIT- Bigguyinblack- reach is always a strong style, and always right next to whatever big 2 hander people are pushing. The only real difference is taht you grab combat reflexes. Maybe lunge too at level 9 (that feat is perfect for positioning enemies right outside of your reach after you attack- they ahve to spend a move action and draw an AoO to get to you. Worth the -2 AC in terms of defense. Also, lunge lets you full attack anything in a 45' wide circle)


Protoman wrote:
What level do you start off at? Starting as level 1 Daring Champion is pretty slow going compared to Inspired Blade. Don't get all the nice deeds til level 4. Also, Daring Champion doesn't get as many of the deeds that the swashbuckler does nor Charmed Life, so doesn't really benefit from the higher Cha. And your current stat lineup is only getting you only 1 Panache point in your pool. Which you'd need to spend just to parry or leave it untouched for precise strike. If doing Daring Champion, can lower Cha to a 10 or lower and still have 1 Panache point (that you can still increase with Extra Grit/Panache feat) and free up stats elsewhere. Maybe Int for Combat Expertise if you're still wanting it.

...but the daring champion gets the 'use cha for int on prereqs' thing that the swashbuckler gets.

I will not argue that int might be a wiser investment, with skill points and all. Although having a few panche to spare can be cool. For example, you can double your precise strike damage using one point, so that means that a daring champion can get up to 3 times their level on an attack if they also use their challenge.


I just want to say: avoid the dex to damage feats, if only to avoid taking weapon focus as a feat tax.

This is because, due to the fact that swaschbucklers/related archetypes rely on a 1handed/1weapon style. This means that the agile weapon property much better for them compared to most dex builds, since those often go the TWF route (which means they have to pay for 2 weapons).

With the focus shifted on only 1 weapon, the comparison between the property and the feat becomes much more like the improved critical/keen debate...except for the fact that both dex to damage options requires a feat tax.

Fencing grace is fantastic for inspired blades though, since they automatically get weapon focus.


Nicos wrote:

THat is certainly posible. Unfortunately is one of hte less effective ways to fight, only a handful of classes do it right. Why you want that hand free?

Are you planning a strengh based or a dex based fighter?

I only know of 2 that make 1 handed/free hand 'work'- magus and swashbuckler.

Magus gets off the hook because it basically TWF with magic.

The swashbuckler, a new class from the Advanced class guide, is a melee class which relies heavily on a feature is built around the suggested style.

Precise strike is a deed that swashbucklers have. As long as they have one panche (it is like ki or grit), they can get their level as a bonus to damage when using 1 handed piercing weapons and not using their other hand (you can get this to also apply to longswords with the slashing grace feat, which also adds dex to damage).

Now, up to +20 to each hit certainly sounds very impressive, but actually is seems like the scaling is closer to making your 1 handed blow match a 2 handed blow (assuming you are compared to a full BAB character with decent strength for level and both parties use power attack or something similar). The class then adds in 'not really' weapon training so that your attacks are about on par with a longsword wielding fighter. After that, they get a lot of nice tricks like parry/riposte and getting their CHA to saves 3-7/day depending on level.

The only problem with swashbuckler is that it relies heavily on CHA...and you are a dwarf. Not entirely a lot cause if you are rolling for stats.... but still painful. There is an archetype for swashbucklers which also adds INT into the mix, but unfortunately that archetype also restricts you to purely rapiers.

There is also the daring champion archetype for cavaliers which trades away mount stuff for swashbuckler abilities. It is mostly notable because it has medium armor and it keeps the challenge ability (so you get twice your level as bonus to each attack).


This sounds like the quest of the kind that makes a few mad alchemist particularly 'infamous'.

I completely approve.


Zardnaar wrote:
Depends on your world view. In Rome a cheap prostitutes services was about the price of a loaf of bread. Going the other way the sky is the limit.

Particularly if you are talking about Calistria. I think she could trick someone into giving her the air domain.


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Aelryinth wrote:

fighters have no resources to cover that.

Characters have SOME resources to cover that.

It is a very important difference. You just used stat generation, race, trait, and general feat.

None of that comes from the fighter. Your 'fighter' expended nothing at all.

==Aelryinth

Ok, fighter gives you resources to do other things (like grabbing TWF or ranged feat, which are core to your character's playing style), which in turns frees up the resources that you get from the virtue of being an X leveled character to be used for more defensive options.

That is what you get from fighter- resources that lets you play your style and still have more flexible resources in reserve.


wraithstrike wrote:
Rambear wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
It's left to the GM. My suggestion would be to allow it for those who grew older before they became undead. You can say that being undead messes with your biology enough that it stabilizes any not-yet-applied ability score modifiers and prevents them from occurring. That's pretty much the assumption I've made over the past 10+ years of developing adventures with undead, after all.

But surely the design-choice with aging has been: You becme more frail as you get older (chest pains, sore joints ello!), but you also get smarter, wiser and a better leader (Ok, gray hair instills confidence) due to your life-experience and more time to ponder these things.

Simply because you turn undead does not mean that your mental faculties get blown to pieces, nor that you cannot learn anything new. So, the age bonusses to mental stats should stay. Iconic would be the Elder Vampire being smarter and more powerful than the young ones. Not just more powerful (class levels), but actually smarter and wiser. I would find it hard to argue that due to a change in biology undead would stop becoming smarter due to literally ages of experience they will gain.

You can even argue that although it does not kill you (undead ello!) that the sands of time do grind away some of the physical form of undead (Ancient Nosferatu being hideous and deformed and such, Lich becoming Demi-Lich). This would account for at least some drop in physical stats (but capping out and maybe not killing you).

So logically I could at least think of some reasons for just applying the aging rules for undead.

In 3.X once you become undead your ability to learn and adapt becomes almost becomes nonexistent. I am aware that is not a PF rule since they have not made an official stance at all. I am just providing precedent.

To answer the OP from a rules point of view there are no more age categories, however I would understand a GM making up something because it does make sense....

You have lost the ability to mature and grow...because you are dead.

You get to stick around as you are forever...but you are only what you are now forever. You do not grow, you decay. You rot. You erode. There is no building up, only the slow wear down of time.

Sure, you can accumulate experiences, and get more knowledge... but it doesn't ever really change you. You never gain new insight or revelations. You never quite figure out why your plans to take over the world always get thwarted ("why does this guy care that I am sacrificing kids? It isn't like I am sacrificing his children"). All you gain are new ways to do the exact same things you have always done.

And that is the key problem with undeath- there is no longer any room for introspection, since there is nothing left when you look inside of yourself.

Sorry, I just got into a little tirade there. I just fell in love with the narrative implications of all this. Not sure if it is how this really works in game, but I would completely run it this way, since it breaths new life (death?) into a worn out trope.


Athaleon wrote:

A Fighter's ability to improve his saves with feats is extremely limited. One feat grants a 10% increased chance of passing one saving throw. If he really pushed Charisma he could get Steadfast Personality, or if he somehow manages to have both 13 Wis and a good Charisma he might make a case to his DM to finagle Believer's Boon (Trickery Domain) into Divine Protection. As far as I know, that's it.

As for the Wizard comparison, yes you can get to par with one feat and one trait. But any class can take those because they are not limited by class. Sure the Fighter has more bonus feats than the Wizard, but he has to spend more feats on slightly different or slightly better ways to Use Iron On Badguy. The Wizard (or Alchemist or Bard etc) has most of this ability built right into the class, leaving them free to use feats and traits on other things.

My usual method is this

12 WIS/8 CHA
Half elf with +2 will save trait or half orc with +1 to all saves
+1 from a trait
+2 from iron will

Iron will also leaves room for improved iron will, which is a nice little reroll on the save the determines whether you start shanking the wizard or not. With half elves, there is also a racial feat that gives another reroll (but only against enchantment spells and effects..again, anti- friendly shanking tech). So while iron will itself is not much, it leaves room for much better defensive options.

All together, a lot of the stuff stuff I listed above can be front loaded, so early on you can put a pure caster, high Wis cleric to shame. Later on, you are on par with an uninvested wizard, and still more reliable than most with your rerolls.

While yes, others can take a lot of these options...their more finite resources make it harder to do so. Improve your already impressive will save, or do you take another metamagic feat that lets you cripple and crush more enemies? When a lot of class guides advise wizards to have 7 WIS, you are working under certain expectations of the 'average', even without high optimized team mates.

My goal is not to be the best, but to cover my weak point so that it isn't a crippling flaw. And fighters have resources to spare in covering that.


Lunge. That is my advice.

Lunge gives you +5' of reach during your turn, and only during your turn. It does not directly help with Attacks of Opportunity.

But it does let you set up the battlefield to your liking.

Normally, a reach fighter (I am assuming pole arms for a lot of this; little whip experience) ends his turn with the enemy 10' away. The enemy can get to him using a 5' step. This means the enemy does not draw an AoO, and it still gets its full attack.

With lunge, the enemy ends up 15' away. As in, they may have to move 10' to get into range. This means they draw an AoO. This means that they likely lose their full attack. That is a rather solid defense, and seems worth the -2 AC from lunge (if it is even used).

Also, with your 5' step included, you can full attack anything in a 45' circle. Getting your full attacks off fairly regularly seems like a fine advantage. It also means less moving to get those attacks off, which seems like an advantage when you are acting as the 25' circle of pain that prevents beasties from eating the warts off the witch's face.


Ssalarn wrote:

As someone once explained, the game can be chopped up into several categories, like lets say:

Social

Exploration

DPR

Control

Recovery

Non-AC Defenses

These are S, E, D, C, R, and N. Assuming that 0 is the minimum proficiency necessary to perform a function adequately, the most you can have in any given field and still have a balanced game is +3, so a Ranger might look like this:
S +0, E +2, DPR +2, Control +0 to +1, Recovery +0 to +1, N +1
Total net score: 6 to 7

So a pretty good spread divided evenly between the various game functions, with an emphasis on Exploration and DPR. Recovery and Control will vary based on spells prepared.

The Fighter looks more like this:

S -1, E- -1, DPR +3, Control -3 to +0, Recovery -3, N -3 to -1
Total net score: -7 to -9

Note that the Fighter can shift his Non-AC defenses up to a -1 (maybe even a 0) by spending feats, but doing so likely means he loses his spot as top DPR and drops to a +2. So, sure, the Fighter has a +3 in DPR, which is better than the Ranger, but he pays for it by being terrible in everything else. And the Ranger still has a +2, meaning he is two substantial steps above the minimum amount necessary to meaningfully contribute. For many enemies, there will be no functional difference between a +2 and a +3 because if trhey have 12 hit points, it doesn't matter if the Ranger is dealing 15 and the Fighter is dealing 18, the creature was defeated by both characters in the same amount of time and with the same expenditure of time and resource.

**EDIT**
I probably should have included "Armor Class" as one of the relevant factors, in which case the Fighter has A +2 and the Ranger has A +1, shifting out totals to 7 to 8 for the Ranger and -6 to -8 for the Fighter.

Eh, depends on the build for a lot of that. For control and non-AC defense, a good reach build could do a lot.

Besides the fact that your standard polearm turns you into a 25' circle of pain (ie- anything that tries to get around you to eat the wizard's kidneys get smacked), you can further how you control this using lunge.

Lunge gives +5 reach during your turn (and ends when your turn ends), and as such get underestimated in terms of importance for reach since it does help with AoO's. But it is in fact perfect- an enemy usually ends up 10' away when you hit it. They only have to take a 5' step (which means no AoO) and they can full attack. But with lunge, enemies end up 15' feet away, and they both draw an AoO and likely lose their full attack. You can fight against an enemy, getting full attacks without going into the usual 'A wails on B, B wails on A, wash rince repeat until we see who does more DPR'.

Also, when you include your own 5' step, lunge allows you to full attack anything within a 45' circle... which is always nice for a melee character. With that, I would hardly even need all these 'give everyone pounce' demands I always see on these threads....

Now, a lot of that stuff is available to pretty much everyone.... but fighters can grab that, and then grab a couple of other tricks along the way (I am now in love with ACG's riving strike, which is basically a 1 turn evil eye hex against spells; debuffing with a -2 to saves is always sweet). I also love the new mutagenic warrior, which gives you freakin' wings for long enough per day from the get go that you can do it every fight. You still need a wizard for long term stuff...but stabbing wyverns 100 feet in the air without any help still makes me warm inside. Plus it has extra strength boosts similar to rage...but hey, we all agree that DPR is not so much the problem here. I'm not saying no though, even if I would have traded armor training away for just the wings...

Anyway, I can certainly agree that fighters could use more skill points and better class skills (which would get themsomewhere out of the red with your point system), but I can be happy with what I can build. Saves...a bit troublesome, but you are just not trying hard enough if you can't make a character that makes the uninvested wizard look bad when your main resource is 'tons of feats'. So it is more of a resource sink that has to be dealt with than anything...


Pendagast wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:


I guess I could be missing something. I do agree that it is feat intensive. But a twf swash with sabres can do everything a one weapon swash can do twice with only a -2 to hit.

Well, you can't precise strike while TWFing.
so…you can use precise strike when you move, and TWF when you full attack, still versatile and useful.

It is hardly any more amazing than a fighter that grabbed a double weapon though (since those can be 2 handed).

My problem is that, while yes, a swashbuckler can do this. But does he have very much incentive to do so? It is not like he has sneak attack, challenges, favored enemies, or smite. Heck, even monks and brawlers (Whose flurries copy TWF) have the advantage of things like getting 2 handed power attack damage. There are not as many huge incentives to actually do TWF.

So the question is: What do you actually DO with TWF when you are a swashbuckler? At best, you have some weapon expertise and the swash buckler's weapon training. Nice, but not overly so. Especially since everyone seems so afraid to pile on other damage boosters like power attack.

EDIT: oh, kestral287- I am also in love with the warrior. Now there is a class/archetype that could take advantage of slashing grace for TWF (dex+weapon training+dueling gloves+mutagen+weapon expertise+power attack).


Krell44 wrote:

OK, how about Lesser Draconic Blood (Claws) and Lesser Fiend Totem (Gore). I do not believe the Draconic is considered a totem so in theory I can have one of each (blood and totem)?

Also, you say: I would not advise putting getting most of my natural attacks from barbarian. This is because, since you are doing it as a dip, your rage rounds are limited. So when you aren't raging, you only have the bite

I dont understand as I am not dipping any other classes. I am only taking Barbarian as a class.

And as I stated earlier I would take a reach weapon for when I am not raging, allowing me to attack from distance and gain the trip option.

Oh, I was going off the discussion of a snake bite brawler earlier.

...and honestly? With the reach weapon...I fear that you would abandon unarmed combat in favor for the sweetness that is 2 handed reach. Not to say that natural attacks aren't great...but reach gives you entire tactics and battle strategies. Also, regular weapons are easier to enhance.

Plus, planning to regularly drop your weapons always seems like a risk.


Count Coltello wrote:

She's already gave some input this morning likes the crystal look green glow wants it to do lightning damage

Oh and now a titan mauler so will be a two handed sword (she's a small char though)

Oh, maybe make it so the lightning is rounds/day when it is in the 'fairly normal sword, but well made' stage, and then constant during the crystal stage (and give it that shocking burst ability times/day, as a nice upgrade)

Obviously the rusted sword only gives you mild static shocks every once in a while.


Krell44 wrote:

Here is what I have worked up so far:

Half-Orc
Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager)
1st Level Feat: Extra Rage Power-Lesser Beast Totem

So, at 1st level when raging I would have: Claw, Claw, Bite as my attack.
At 2nd level I will add Lesser Fiend Totem as my rage power which would give me horns as a gore attack.

A couple questions I have:

1. Can my full attack be Claw, Claw, Gore, Bite? Or am I limited to the number of attacks I can make.

2. The Gore attack states that it is at my bonus to hit (no negative) unless I am attacking with weapons and then its at -5. Are claws considered weapons since I am not holding them?

While I am not raging I imagine I will take a reach weapon to keep me away from a mob and give me the opportunity to Trip.

2 things:

1.) You can only have 1 type of totem. Either you have beast totem, or your have fiend totem.

2.) I would not advise putting getting most of my natural attacks from barbarian. This is because, since you are doing it as a dip, your rage rounds are limited. So when you aren't raging, you only have the bite

So, for advice and answers:

A.) Yes, you get all the natural attacks you can physically make. That is the trade off: you do not get extra attacks at +6 BAB, +11 BAB, or +16 BAB, but instead you can make all nautral attacks at once in the same full attack, and they all hit at your highest BAB. There is only one restriction: You can't use a limb for more than 1 kind of attack. So if you got bite attacks from 2 different sources, you could only make 1 since you only have 1 head. (unsure on how gore and bite stack though; while they both use the head, there are monsters that use both at once, such as gargoyles)

B.) 2 levels of rangers gives you constant claws if you take the natural attack style and pick the aspect of the beast feat. You could then take 2 levels of barbarian and grab fiend totem. That would give you 3 natural attacks all he time, and 4 when you rage (which also gives a nice little damage boost).


Yeah, at what level does it become a +5 BLING blade?

Or more honestly: can you imagine the progression of this sword? Is it something like this-
1-5- Rusty->
6-10-Plain->
11-15-well made with fine engravings (may or may not glow)->
16-20- gaudied out with gold and diamonds and glitters like a 5 year old's art project (tasteful alternative: Crystal. Just make the blade look like it was practically glass, with glowing runes as decoration)

One interesting thing you can do with the first transition would be to have the blade lose its rust after it was coated in the blood of some power monster. Having it just happen suddenly could be a nice little surprise, and it can get the player excited for an encore.

Maybe make all the upgrades like this. It gives a nice benchmark for where you want the character to power up at ("When he can beat a CR X monster, he gets X upgrade"), and gives the character a better sense of fullfillment than if it was level based (since they might have accidentally leveled on a 1 armed blind goblin that gives 1 xp and just happened to steal his lunch).

Now, whether to make the monsters themselves particularly important, or whether just to have the sword eat mythical beasts is an important issue. While the 'defeat the 4 demon lords that threaten the land' is a common RPG plot....well.... it is just that the level difference between demon lords gets noticable. Why did the CR 20 Lord of Air team up with this CR 5 lord of earth? The air lord's lowest minion could wipe that guy out. I knwo they could be powering up during the campaign by breaking seals or eating angel babies (whatever)...still, it can be jarring.


London Duke wrote:

One thing I noticed about the Mutation Warrior, he doesn't get greater Mutagen until 15 and Grand Mutagen at 19, care to weigh in on that?

Do you think a character like this would actually be helpful in RotRL?

The warrior still has weapon training. They can still grab all the usual bonuses to damage.

No one ever accused the fighter of being bad at hitting stuff. While it is arguable that the vanilla fighter is not as nice as a barbarian armed with rage powers (pounce is always a tough act to follow), it is not like the fighter's damage boosting mechanic is bad, or that it isn't on a similar scale.

So you have a decent damage boosting mechanic, and then you have yet another damage boosting mechanic that you can use a certain amount each day to push things even further. That is still a default +6 to both attack and damage (+7 damage if 2 handing) at the higher levels, and it grows to +10 when you throw in grand mutagen and dueling gloves (+12 damage if 2 handing). Combined with the ability to fly, and the mutagenic warrior is doing fine.


I just want to add this in favor of gnomes:

Riving Strike is a new feat form ACG that requires arcane strike. In essence, it is a 1 turn evil eye hex on saves against spells when you smack someone with your glittered up weapon. Yes, that is a -2 to saves. Making yourself a debuffer is always nice.


As a dip, I would guess fighter, if only for the pure fact that it gets 1 more bonus feat and has better proficiencies.

But further than that, things become a bit dicier. Mutagenic warrior gets better discoveries (WINGS! WINGS! WINGS THAT LAST FOR MOST FIGHTS IN A DAY FROM THE SECOND YOU GET THEM!), with a small bit competition from the constant speed boosts and other special abiltities keeping the scales from completely tipping on that front.

The Mauler gets some nice bonuses to damage at 6th level....but the warrior is still a fighter that only traded out armor training. As such, they still enjoy weapon training by that point. That is a nice little +1 to attack and damage, and it qualifies them for dueling gloves for another +2 to attack and damage (brawlers can't get those since it is an ability based requirement, rather than a class specific one).

Brawlers are still rather nice overall as a chassis though. I mostly gravitate more towards the fighter since I originally was thinking of a reach build. But if you play with things like temple swords, then brawlers are excellent in terms of damage.

EDIT: And I don't find fighters too boring, as long as you know what you want from them. For example, that reach build I mentioned. I would stack a lot of useful things that would give it a lot of options. Reach+lunge= full attacks in a 45' circle, and enemies end up 15' away from you (So they have to draw an AoO to get to you, and they probably lose their full attack), and you still act like a 25' circle of pain that enemies don't want to cross (and thus you provide battlefield control). And ACG has given us all sorts of new toys like riving strike that gives you some decent debuff options that are similar to the witch's bread and butter that is the evil eye hex. It is all about knowing what you want and using your main advantage, a truckload of feats, to their full extent.

Now, admittedly, brawler's martial flexibility could give you a ton more options for doing cool tricks like that...but hey, we are discussing the archetype that gets rid of that ability.


Gnomezrule wrote:
lemeres wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

-Rapier. Optimal crit range, piercing, one-handed, however no Dex-to-damage option until Fencing Grace is released.

-Katana. Optimal crit range, higher damage than the Rapier, qualifies for Slashing Grace, but requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

-Cutlass/Scimitar. Identical to the Rapier, but qualifies for Slashing Grace for Dex-to-damage.

-Spiked Gauntlet. Piercing, light, doesn't interfere with other weapons, making it a good backup choice. No Dex-to-damage here either, but as a backup weapon that's less important. For an early game option, it's cheap to get one cold iron and one alchemical silver to bypass DRs. 35 gold for the pair.

Scizore is a total trap. Stay far away from it, it'll end up doing far less damage than any of the above weapons save the Spiked Gauntlet.

Well, for the normal finesse weapons, there is an existing dex-to-damage option: an agile weapon.

The good thing about swashbucklers compared to a lot of dex classes builds is that it is fine with just 1 weapon. It doesn't need TWF to keep up. So that means agile, which is usually prohibitively expensive with TWF, is more affordable for the swashbuckler. This turns it straight into a keen vs. improved critical argument of cost of enhancements vs. cost of feats.

Anyway, as far as general damage goes, it looks like precise strike is basically the same as a full BAB (with average strength for their level) using a 2 handed weapon. Which is a good thing, since that is kind of a standard of DPR.

The point of precise strike is that you get the swashbuckler up to the same playing field as rangers, paladins, and barbarians. With their weapon training thing on top of that, and a few nice tricks like parry riposte here and there, they make a fine melee combatant.

A swash with TWF and prof in Saw-toothed sabers can get dex to damage in both hands after slashing grace.

A relatively small loophole, and one that take a rather large amount of investment in order to take advantage of (EWP, weapon focus, and slashing grace; this is not even getting into the TWF feats that are needed).

And honestly? While that set up might be nice for other classes, I think it is slightly wasted on swashbucklers. Ignoring the fact that precise strike is lost (it is meant to put one 1 handed weapon on par with a 2handed one; this is just a classical 2 handed vs TWF argument), the swashbuckler does not have too much actually going for it as far as TWF is concerned. They lack things like sneak attack or challenges, so they mostly just have to rely upon their swashbuckler's weapon training. And as such, they fall behind even a regular fighter since the fighter can at least grab dueling gloves to get a nice +2 to attack and damage on each hit.

Overall, the twin saber build is nicer for Daring Champion archetype Cavaliers, who have their fantastic damage bonus from their challenge ability. The regular swashbuckler seems like it is much more of a chassis for non-TWF sword and board, as well as throwing.


There is also an unarmed style for rangers. Although that is more of a religion based style for Irori. And honestly, just grabbing a normal ranger and getting improved unarmed strike and the TWF style would probably be more effective.

Another piece of advice: there is a new style feat from the Advanced class guide called 'pummeling style'. This feat is easier for monks and brawlers to grab, but it is possible for other classes to get them as long as they get the BAB requirement (although that takes a few more levels to meet).

Pummeling style is interesting, since it is designed to to pool your entire full attack into a single attack. That means you only face DR once. DR 10 is basically DR 2 when it is spread over 5 attacks. Grabbing this feat at level 7 (since it needs BAB +6 for most classes) lets you ignore any of the problems unarmed strike builds can face with DR. The feat also has some craziness about how a critical threat from any attack causes the whole full attack to be a critical threat (resolved using your highest BAB). Yes, your entire full attack can crit.

Pummeling style is also awesome since it leads to the pummeling charge feat. That feat allows you to charge when using pummeling style....so it is pounce basically. Unfortunately, for non monk/brawlers, it's BAB requirement of +12 is a bit out of reach for PFS.

Overall, rangers are actually a rather interesting chassis for an unarmed build, whether you are punching or tear peoples throats out.


Unarmed strikes are basically just like normal weapons as far as doing iterative attacks, TWF, and such.

Natural weapons are their own little system that is mostly separate from normal weapons. You only ever get 1 attack from a natural weapon per full attack, but you can use all the natural attacks you have during a full attack and they all hit at full BAB and for full str and power attack damage (none of that TWF trouble). The limit of natural attacks you can have is the limit of limbs you have to stick them on.

So you could have a bite attack and 2 claw attacks, and then you could hit with all of them during your full attack. This is very useful depending on the level, since bite/claw/claw can be grabbed by level 2 (or level 1 if you are a tengu). So while it never gets more attacks (unless you find another way to grab natural attacks), it is still fairly comparable to TWF in terms of power, and it is very front loaded.

I will also warn you about secondary natural attacks. Some attacks (such as tentacles or pincers) are just considered 'secondary' by default. This means that they get -5 to attack and deal half str and power attack damage. This is usually not a problem for pure natural attack builds, since it is kind of hard to even get those kind of attacks. No, it usually only comes up with a side rule that all natural attacks become secondary if you use a manufactured weapon (such as a dagger or sword) during the same turn.

Anyway, if you are interested in a natural attack build, you can easily grab one by playing a half orc (which has an alternate racial trait that gives a bite) with the ranger class (they have a natural attack style, and one of the first feats is 'aspect of the beast', which can give you claws). For the level range of PFS, this bite/claw/claw will be more than enough for you to do decent damage.

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