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Verik Vancaskerkin

kinevon's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber. FullStarFullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 2,562 posts (3,717 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 23 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Wu Nakitu wrote:
kinevon wrote:

What choices and options does it take away? Bladebound Magi have access to the full Magus spell list. Bladebound Magi have a weapon that they can fully use their arcane pool points to empower. Bladebound Magi lose spell recall, but that can, easily, be covered by using Pearls of Power. Bladebound Magi have a lower personal arcane pool, but have access to a second arcane pool that they can draw off of, or use for additional abilities that a normal Magus does not have.

Unless something is stranger than I think it is, a Bladebound Magus has a base weapon that is close to the "normal" weapon enhancement of a martial character before they start adding enhancements to it from their arcane pool ability.

How many 5th level martial types are going to have a +3 keen weapon? Not to mention that they have more flesibility in their weapon than most martial types. After all, everything from their arcane pool point can be tailored for the current combat.

And, even though they start to get arcana late, they can still get mosty of them, including the ones that let them add ghost touch or bane to their weapon, as well.

Sure, you can't get agile, but you should know that going in, so you aren't going to miss something you knew you wouldn't have to begin with. And agile, IMO, is overrated. The best way to do more damage, obviously, is to do moah damage.

Then again, my kensai bladebound magus is str & int, not dex and int. Not a great AC, but no need to give up Power Attack, if he wants it.

Bladebound doesn't even cost you Spell Recall...it's the Kensai half of your build that did that.

True, my confusion. All my Magi are Kensai....

Spoiler:
Crandall is a level 7 Magus (Bladebound, Kensai); Bruno is my Fighter (Lore Warden) 8, who just took a level of Magus (Kensai)...

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

UDS: You only lose the feat from that slot at that time, you can take it again with another feat slot later.

Combat Reflexes, for multiple AoOs, is a good choice for a high Dex PC in any case.
Improved Trip/Disarm/Dirty Trick all have their uses.
Improved Initiative can bve useful, attacking earlier means getting your full Dex to AC qwuicker, and apotentially flat-footed opponent.
Blind Fight is nice...
Weapon Focus is simple, but it is the basis for a bunch of feats later.
Dodge can help with a lower AC, and it helps her touch AC.

Depending on her focus, as a Lore Warden, she might want to look, at third level, at non-Combat feats, maybe Dilettante or Cosmopolitan.

Part of it, of course, is where she wants the character to develop to, as well.

Knowledge with lots of damage? Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, etc.
Local area battlefield control? Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Imprved Dirty Trick, etc.

Multi-classing into a compatible class? Magus plays well with Lore Warden, IMO.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I didn't mean to suggest it was hate worthy, sorry. My actual response was:
Quote:
Are you certain on bladebound? The blade doesn't upgrade as quickly as a normal magic weapon, and not getting an Arcana until sixth level really hurts.

I don't personally like it that much for a few reasons, but it can be good if you are in a low magic campaign.

One: It delays your arcana. In your other thread you were making a hexcrafter, and they need arcana for hexes and for normal arcana. You can't take an extra arcana feat until you have an arcana, so waiting until 6th level delays one of the main magus abilities.

Two: It reduces your Arcane pool. This is a needed resource and it hurts when it's missing.

Three: The enhancement bonus of Black Blade is set by you level and is lower than what your would get if you had standard WBL allocated to a magic weapon. Depending on your game, this can be good because you have a guaranteed magic weapon, but in a standard game, it's weaker than having a normal magic weapon.

Four: Intelligent items are a pain. Bickering with your blade is not my idea of fun, and I was never really a fan of Elric, so having a powered-down Strombringer isn't appealing.

I'm the one who expressed the hatred for this archetype but I agree one hundred percent with your statements here.

My real issue with it is this is an archetype that takes away choices and options from the player all to save you a little cash which is the easiest most abundant resource in the game.
All taking this archetype does is save you a little cash up front in exchange for flexibility and power later in the game.

Add to that it really does lock you into a more martial style of play as opposed to magical. You are effectively trading your ability to bend reality over your knee and beat it to your whim for a hunk of pig iron that's a little easier to swing but acts like a stuck up girlfriend if you try to do what it doesn't think you should.
It's not a rationale trade.

What choices and options does it take away? Bladebound Magi have access to the full Magus spell list. Bladebound Magi have a weapon that they can fully use their arcane pool points to empower. Bladebound Magi lose spell recall, but that can, easily, be covered by using Pearls of Power. Bladebound Magi have a lower personal arcane pool, but have access to a second arcane pool that they can draw off of, or use for additional abilities that a normal Magus does not have.

Unless something is stranger than I think it is, a Bladebound Magus has a base weapon that is close to the "normal" weapon enhancement of a martial character before they start adding enhancements to it from their arcane pool ability.

How many 5th level martial types are going to have a +3 keen weapon? Not to mention that they have more flesibility in their weapon than most martial types. After all, everything from their arcane pool point can be tailored for the current combat.

And, even though they start to get arcana late, they can still get mosty of them, including the ones that let them add ghost touch or bane to their weapon, as well.

Sure, you can't get agile, but you should know that going in, so you aren't going to miss something you knew you wouldn't have to begin with. And agile, IMO, is overrated. The best way to do more damage, obviously, is to do moah damage.

Then again, my kensai bladebound magus is str & int, not dex and int. Not a great AC, but no need to give up Power Attack, if he wants it.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
MattR1986 wrote:

You can wear fire? I can't wait to see the fall collection from Armani of

"Girl screaming down a runway in a burning inferno"

Check out PFS PC Katisha, who tends to have a continual flame on the inside of her cloak, IIRC.

And, of course, real world stunt men, who tend to wear flames on the outside of fireproof suits for some scenes...

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Sarrah wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
DarkPhoenixx wrote:
RAW no undefined defined and the answer is no.
Fixed that for you. There's a big difference between the rules saying that you keep the full benefits of invisibility while visibly emanating light, and the rules saying nothing one way or the other.

Fixed it for ya.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/invisibility.html#_invisibility
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

So, if the creature is set aflame after it becomes invisible, the flames remain visible, unless and until the creature puts the flames in its pockets or under its clothing.

As long as the creature is burning, in the situation given above, its location would be visible, i.e. which swuare it is in, but it would retain the effects of total concealment, i.e. a 50% miss chance.

Similar to an invisible creature standing in a puddle, its feet would displace water, making an empty hole showing which square it is in, but not with sufficient clarity to guarantee hitting it solidly.

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Know your PC.

Really, please.

Oh, and have the rules for any unusual abilities ready-to-hand, even if it is Core.

Nothing worse than using something that is seldom done, and having the GM go, "Huh?" and not have the rules available immediately.

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Acedio wrote:

If there were special lines on the ITS explicitly for consumables, then my problem with it would go away entirely.

Really, something that's a combination of the wand tracking and normal inventory tracking lines could be used. Something tabular like this could do it:

Item Name | Cost/Unit |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
BOL Scroll| 1125gp |Purchased:[15][17][19][21][24][24][33][33]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
|Used: [16][18][21][23][24][33][33][ ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I might test that out and see how it goes.

EDIT: Sorry, formatting was lost. Just picture that the "Used" column lines up with the "purchased" column and it should make a little more sense.

You do know that you can create your own version of the ITS, including a section like this for consumables like alchemical items & potions.

So, one ITS for nominally permanent items, armor, shield, weapons, the Big 6 magiucal items, etc. That one might never get filled up completely.

Another ITS, especially for consumables savants, for handling/tracking consumables bought or crafted in "small" lots. Line X with a quantity box, a box for when they qty was bought/crafted, and a set of 10 or more checkboxes for tracking consumption of the items.

And, one last ITS, for those of us who use wands, arrows or other ammunition in job lots, with the 50 boxes for check off. For the "normal" PC, who only uses a few items like this, or small lot consumables, you can add a few of each line to a single ITS form, and not have different ITSes for different types of items.

And, yes, that will add some work, as you sort through your ITSes looking for the one you want to add something to.

Hmm. Makes me want to make a custom standard slot item ITS form for my PCs, with things like:
Armor:
+1 Enhancement:
+2 Enhancement:
.
.
.
+10 Enhancement:

And so forth...

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Gwen Smith wrote:
kinevon wrote:

Please take a look at the skill description again.

Move on a narrow or uneven surface. Move at half speed if successful.

Move past/through an opponent's threatened area/space. Move at half speed, do not provoke if successful, failing the move through is fall prone and provoke an AoO. Move at full speed by increasing the DC by 10.

Jump as part of a move. Long jumps and high jumps are referenced here only. No move half, but cannot exceed normal movement.

The PRD does not include some of the information on jumping and tumbling. It does not include the fall prone information on failing the move through an opponent's space, for example.

Where does the "fall prone on failing to move through an opponent's space" come from? I have never seen that outside of the messageboards, not in a rule book or in game play.

And the PRD is an official source--probably the best official source. It contains all the text of the listed sources with all the errata already applied. If the "fall prone when you fail to move through an opponent's space" isn't in the PRD, where exactly does it come from?

I have no idea where it came from, probably someone (mis?)quoting a JJ post somewhere. Just reread the PRD, and you are right, just fail and provoke.

I still learn something new on occasion...

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Shimesen wrote:
Yes Diego, that's what we said. At third level, you already have an arcane pool. Now you are changing that, and also replacing the 3rd level arcana. His question was weather the magus would get an arcane pool at level 1. Yes, it just doesn't get modified until level 3.

Wrong.

Arcane pool feature is modified when you get it, at level 1, not at level 3.

When an archetype change a class feature it change it from the moment in which that feature is acquired, barring specific text that this ability hasn't.

It don't matter that you get the black blade at level 3, the arcane pool feature is changed from level 1.

Diego, it is a battle which is not worth fighting, as, either way, the Black Blade's Arcane Pool is going to be the exact same size.

1st level: 1/2, min 1 is 1; 1/3, min. 1 is also 1
2nd level: 2/2, min. 1 is 1; 2/3, min. 1 is also 1
3rd level: 3/3, min. 1 is going to stay 1, and all agree that at third level it will be divid by 3 instead of 2.

And, up to that point, there is no functional difference to either side of the debate.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

@Rerednaw: By RAW, despite what some posters state, it works. Because some people read things a little bit differently, expect table variation.

Best option, if you think your Magus can afford it, is to go the whip route, since that will give you a weapon which you can use Spell Combat and Spellstrike with against any opponent from adjacent to 15' away.

You would probably want at least the Whip Mastery feat (although that comes at 3rd level at the earliest for a Magus), so you don't have to worry about the spell damage not being applied, though. Improved Whip Mastery, of course, adds in the ability to threaten areas both adjacent and 5' away from your PC, but takes a BAB of 5 to achieve.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.

So, no, since you can't use the Arcane Trickster's sneak attack dice to qualify for Arcane Trickster.

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

For clarity:

1) You can always buy anything on the Always Available list.

2) If an item is listed on a Chronicle, you can purchase it, even if you don't have enough Fame to unlock that level of gold access.

3) You can buy anything legal from Additional Resources that you own the resource for, that costs equal to or less than your Fame score unlocks.

Ex:
0-4 Fame is only Always Available and what is on your CHronciels for the PC.
5-8 Fame includes the above but adds access to anything that is legal that costs 500 gp or less.
9-12 Fame, as above, gold limit increases to 1500.
.
.
.

The items on the Chronicle are, usually, anything that is not on the Always Available list, and anything that is non-standard, like partially charged wands.

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

and the GM puts up his GM screen, and it is covered with skull and crossbones stickers...

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Please take a look at the skill description again.

Move on a narrow or uneven surface. Move at half speed if successful.

Move past/through an opponent's threatened area/space. Move at half speed, do not provoke if successful, failing the move through is fall prone and provoke an AoO. Move at full speed by increasing the DC by 10.

Jump as part of a move. Long jumps and high jumps are referenced here only. No move half, but cannot exceed normal movement.

The PRD does not include some of the information on jumping and tumbling. It does not include the fall prone information on failing the move through an opponent's space, for example.

So, moving through a threatened space, or through an opponent's square, is not a jump, it is a move.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
foolsjourney wrote:

Thanks Durngrun.

That's interesting, and great to know, as I've been reading the rules for Acrobatics differently.

My reading was that it can be used EITHER for evading an AoO when moving through a threatened or occupied square, OR for jumping high/long, and that they were distinct separate uses of the skill. When the ring description then said it applied specifically to the high/long, my reasoning was that it couldn't be applied to the jumping through a threatened or occupied square.

Wow. It's a very cheap item if it allows +5 to that too- it effectively negates the +5 to opponent's CMD. I think my player will like this news.

Ta muchly good sirs.

The acrobatics check to avoid an AoO is a tumble check, not a jump check. I think Durngrun was simply pointing out that the ring applies to any attempt to jump.

The item the PC probably wants are boots of elvenkind, that apply a +5 competence bonus to Acrobatics, in general.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

As designed and written, you can only identify the magical properties of an item using Spellcraft in association with either the detect magic spell, where you have to roll the spellcraft check, or with the identify spell, which gives you a +10 bonus on your spellcraft roll, and also allows you to take 10 on the roll if you so desire, since identify does not require concentration.

There are ways for a non-caster to get the ability to cast detect magic, though.

Simplest: One level of almost any full caster class, since most of them have detect magic in their cantrip/orison lists.

Less simple: Two levels of Rogue/Ninja, and take the minor magic talent, which lets you cast a 0 levbel spell 3 times per day.
I believe there is a feat that allows the limited use of a cantrip, similar to the Rogue talent.
Same for at least one regular race, like gnome with a Char of 11 gives them detect magic as a spell-like ability a limited number of times per day.

Campaign-limited: Requires your GM to allow wayfinders to be purchased, that you have a Prestige/Fame system rtunning, and the GM to allow the use of prestige costing wayfinder enhancements from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide or Pathfinder Society Primer, to get the discerning enhancement on a wayfinder, which allows the user to cast detect magic at will.

I am sure that there are other items and abilities that give those out, like the Lens of Sight or whatever it is called, that gives detect magic, usable for 10 minutes a day, in 1 minute increments.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
kinevon wrote:


And you look at your feet instead of ahead of you when you walk normally?

No.

Because I can see ahead of myself normally.

kinevon wrote:
Each person, in general, knows the length of their own stride, whether they can see where they are stepping or not.

Wanna put that to the test? Put yourself in the middle of a room. Close your eyes. Spin in a circle.

Have someone guide you somewhere just as you're suggesting.

You instinctively take smaller steps when you can't see.

But you are in a fog, where you can't see far, not in deeper darkness, where you cannot see at all. Big difference.

Blindness limits your movement rate, unless you want to use Acrobatics. Obscuring Mist limits distance vision, not the ability to see at all.

Now, if you moved at 60 MPH normally, you would move a lot slower in a fog cloud (or should, but real world idiot drivers is a different subject), but at the speed of walking, only being able to see more-or-less clearly for 5' is not a big limiter.

Do you also limit the movement rates of someone who is using a candle for light in PF? That has a 5' circle of illumination, too...

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I'm pointing to the location of my couch right now.

Do you see it?

Pointing out is not necessarily pointing at.

"Okay, class, I would like to point out for you a few of the differences between the Greek and Roman gods."

The speaker then goes on to descibe, verbally, the differences. No need for the class to "look" since the differences are being "pointed out".

Or, as mentioned, "Jericho, move 12' to your right, then 4' forward." which should also easily fall into 6 seconds worth of speech...

Possibly. It's harder than you make it sound, though.

How do you judge when you've walked 12 feet if you can't see more than 5 ahead of you? You probably can't even see your own feet unless you're quite short.

That would, at the very least, slow you even more than usual for being blind. 1/4 speed at best in my book while you try to figure out the exact distance by putting one foot in front of another.

And you look at your feet instead of ahead of you when you walk normally?

Each person, in general, knows the length of their own stride, whether they can see where they are stepping or not.

So, you would prefer, "4 paces straight ahead, then veer to your right for one stride."?

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:

I'm pointing to the location of my couch right now.

Do you see it?

Pointing out is not necessarily pointing at.

"Okay, class, I would like to point out for you a few of the differences between the Greek and Roman gods."

The speaker then goes on to descibe, verbally, the differences. No need for the class to "look" since the differences are being "pointed out".

Or, as mentioned, "Jericho, move 12' to your right, then 4' forward." which should also easily fall into 6 seconds worth of speech...

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

One thing to remember on this subject, is not skipping encounters, but paying attention to when you can just call it a wrap for an encounter.

IOf it becomes obvious that teh PCs are going to win, and that all that is left is a mook or two that are hit point pools, but unlikely to do much, if any, damage to the PCs, just call it. Maybe specify that the PCs need to spend a couple of extra CLW charges, but, generally, end the encounter when it becomes obvious that all that's left is grind or just time burning.

Also remember to, as mentioned, keep your players (and yourself!) focused on the game. I get distracted looking up rules that are not serious issues, sometimes, when I GM face-to-face.

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

But it also needs to include when breath of life brings you back alive with no penalties, and when it brings you back, but leaves you suffering from a permanent negative level.

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Chevalier83 wrote:

Got a question regarding Ocher Rhomboid Ioun Stone:

The item says activating an ocher rhomboid ioun stone is an evil act that shifts your alignment one step toward evil unless you receive the benefits of an atonement spell.

I think about GMing the scenario. Is it possible to give the boon to a neutral character and than atone him?

Yes. Just make sure you annotate it on the chronicle sheet.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Te'Shen wrote:
Taskmagus Black wrote:

What about teamwork feats? . . .

See everything gets better if you work together.

Inquisitors get free teamwork ske...er feats, and benefit from said feats via solo tactics. However, at eighth level, he can smite a succubus with his piercing judgement...

LazarX wrote:
You do understand the concept that one special UNIQUE case doesn't make it the norm?
After this thread, I don't know if I can imagine a succubus not being into BDSM, even one that's been tricked into a helm of opposite alignment followed with levels in paladin...

So, she is a Chelaxian faction Succubus Paladin, working on, er I mean for, Paracountess Zarta Dralneen...

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
James McTeague wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Doesn't seem that bad, unless there is a range limitation on either Cackle or the hexes themselves?

Hex, Cackle doesn't seem like a bad thing, really, from a Witch perspective.

And, from a GM perspective, extending an effect that was saved against seems like a bad thing. Just wait for the screams form the PCs when they run into a team of BBEGs with a couple of Witches doing this, along with a Barbarian or Magus to play whack-a-mole on the party.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:

kinevon,

In general, I support your position regarding how hard-core to make a scenario, but in this instance I'm half-way between your position and finlanderboy's. Please take the following notes in the spirit of inquiry rather than accusation.

1) Finlanderboy is right, when he says that a character playing above his tier needs to be ready for whatevern the scenario throws at him. That's exactly the situation where I don't choose to softball encounters. (Probably because I have too much experience with players always wanting to play up out of greed, expecting that I wouldn't want to "wreck the session" by dropping their PCs.)

1a) Did the party discuss letting that player run a pre-gen, maybe Valeros, and apply the credit to the 2nd-level PC when he reached 4th level?

2) Were other characters helping to take blows from the monster? Were casters summoning in meat shields for him?

In any case, the character was in a tight position, and a critical blow would have cost him his life. Were the other players likely to pay for that character's raise dead? If so, it might have been a great PFS experience for the new guy, to realize that, in terrible circumstances, the party would have his back and make sure he'd be ready to advanture another day.

But, in the end, you know what? I wasn't there. I wasn't reading the players' attitudes. You were, you made a call, and I'm not going to try to second guess you.

Actually, Chris, none of the rest of them could take the damage. They were all squishies. Sorcerer, Wizard, etc.

None of them had either the hit points nor the AC of the 2nd level Fighter. And they all were casters, so having them where they could cast "safely" was the right decision for the party.

A few points that seem to have been overlooked:
The fudge was specific to the player's situation.
The player was at her 4th PFS game session, and this was the first time she was able to play her own PC, she had been playing pregens at the previous three sessions.
So, I treated her as new to PFS, with not wanting to discourage her from coming back.

For regular players, especially ones with multiple PCs, I don't fudge. I pout, sometimes, when my dice suffer an epic fail; and I found that I dislike how one of the rules for Witches is written, as it makes succeeding at a saving throw irrelevant.

Cackle:
Extend the duration of a set of Witch hexes by one round. At least one of those hexes is written so that it affects the target, even if it saves. Being able to cackle and extend the duration of a hex that was saved against by one round is a bit... bad, if not into broken.

Makes a trip-lock look good, from what I have seen.

Cackle also doesn't make it clear if a single cackle extends all applicable hexes, or if each hex on each target needs its own Cackle...

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Don Walker wrote:
Not to spoil the party, but if you are on slow advancement everything gets halved - including Prestige Points.

As mentioned, Don, the prestige point granted by that boon wouldn't be halved by being on slow advancement, as it is in place of the PC's Day Job.

As a matter of fact, that boon is about the best reason to go slow track, especially since it costs 15 PP to buy it...

For those who want to know:
The boon is from the chronicle for the Fangwood Keep module.

Andoran ***

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Note: The only exception, which won't apply in this case, is partially or wholly used consumables. Anything used up is gone, and so is the money/PP spent on it. You do get to retain any remaining ammo/charges/etc., you just can't sell it back for full price, nor at a partial price.

I hope that made sense.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Finlanderboy wrote:

Warn them of the threat. That fighter played. That was her choice to play a character of tier.

You all convince me further that I would still be upset if played at that table. WHy even roll dice? Just describe to my table how we win sign my chronicle and let go home pretending I earned it.

I would have warned the player that I roll on the open table and everyone can see. If you play this adventure you could seriously die. Heck that is not the biggest threat in the adventure means. I would have said there is a noticeable chance these things can kill you in one hit even playing defensive. If all the other characters twice the level were that weak, I honestly think you are lying.

I have run other adventures when I have players unsure what to play or do.

I am sorry it is wrong of me to expect an honest DM. It is wrong of me to want to earn my win.

That is sad.

So, you want an "honest" GM. Define it.

As to your accusation that 4th level PCs can not be weaker than second level PCs, I invite you to consider a table consisiting of:
2nd level Fighter
4th level Wizard
3rd level Cleric
3rd level Rogue

Let's be kind to you and say that they all have at least a 12 Con, the Fighter a 14; and that they all spent their FCB on hit points.

F2: 10+6+2*2+2 = 22 hit points, AC 21-22
W4: 6+4*3+4+4 = 26 hit points, AC 16-17
C3 = 8+2*5+3+3 = 24 hit points, AC 17-18
R3 = 8+2*5+3+3 = 24 hit points, AC 18

That Fighter's hit points are well within the area defined by a fairly weell hit-point-optimized higher level group. And none of the other PCs were that well optimized for hit points, and those were definitely the AC ranges.

Then again, I have almost had a TPK to a swarm, and just killed off two first level PCs, in a sub-tier 1-2 game, because the group didn't have good tactics, and suffered for it. Oh, and one of those two PCs was a new (10 year old) player's PC. Hopefully, he took as well as it appeared he did, and he will be back.

And, yes, I hated having to kill the PC, but the situation made it impossible to avoid. Indeed, I ran the NPC's legal tactics hard to try and avoid the whole thing, but the party just weren't able to handle the combat in a way to prevent the deaths.

Spoiler:
6 2d6 negative channels available to an enemy cleric, in a sub-tier 1-2 game, and a stated tactic making using those channels a high priority, make for a very dangerous game for a party at that level, especially when they don't have a positive channeler in their party...

Andoran

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Oh, and back on the original subject:

Groups that have trouble with basic tactics. You know, things like focused fire, and going after the most dangerous target first.

TDWK, P1- SR:
The group I was GMing went after the zombie first, and had great problems with it. They suffered, greatly, including two dead PCs, because they did not pay enough attention to the negative channeling cleric behind the zombie. Ugly, just ugly.

Andoran

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phantom1592 wrote:

My annoyance with 'levels' in a game... is A) that its not as innate as it should be.

You can call yourself a 5th level wizard... but where did you get that rank? Who gave it to you? Did you go back to the tower and take a placement exam?

If you focus a lot on training rules, then that works just fine.... but I don't see anyone in any book referring to themselves as '3rd level fighters...' so i'm not a fan of it tossed in with casters either.

and...

B) It sounds kind of stupid. Claiming your a 5th level wizard is much more dumb sounding then claiming to be a master of the Fifth ring of the Order of light....

Means the same thing, but I don't know... I just don't care for 'level-speak'

I think in-game, we currently refer to spells as being of certain 'circles'. Our sorcerer can currently cast a single spell of the fifth circle...

It's petty, but we like it ;)

And that works fine, in a closed group, where you are metagaming the meaning. The instant someone new joins your group, you either have to step out of character to explain it, or you have someone who is totally confused, and probably not having a bunch of fun.

OGL core refers to a bunch of things by the word level. Many of us either have been using the term for years as Gary & Dave defined it, or grew up using it that way.

Remember that what your group uses if it is non-standard, is fine for your group, but you need to remember taht visitors and new members will need to be brought up to speed on it.

For PFS, since it is an open campaign, using the standard terms is not metagaming, it is playing the game as written.

Can your PC tell the difference between a Fighter, a Ranger, a Paladin, and a Samurai? At times, they can all look almost identical to a casual viewer.

Fighter with a bow
Ranged Ranger
Divine Hunter (I think it is) Paladin
Zen Archer Monk

Overall, from a distance, they will look very similar.

Andoran

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Finlanderboy wrote:
kinevon wrote:


** spoiler omitted **

When I think about it, I think wow if I were playing there I would have had my game wrecked.

You gave an example where a player is making bad choice after bad choice and you have to lower the bar to keep them playing.

I am sorry your example does not appeal to me only firms my stance. I want that challenge and threat. If I were you, I would have advised the player against the actions that could have caused that. As a DM of new players I say often hey I would advice against X and here is why. So they learn. You taught them they can play reckless with no threat. Again let them know when they are playing up how deadly it is, the threat involved. Say a pregen may be a good idea. If you really wanna play up, you NEED to play smart. Going toe to toe is a bad idea. You failed him letting a newbie walk into hat threat ignorant

Say what?

Did you actually read my spoiler?

Just as an FYI, a 2nd level fighter, which is what she was playing, has both better defenses and better hit points than most 4th level casters.

Spoiler:
High AC fighter, going total defense for additional AC. Creature needs a 16 to hit.
A 16.
So, 25% chance of a hit.
10% chance of a potential critical.
25% chance of confirming that 10% critical.
2.5% chance of that bad luck happening.

That is neither challenge nor threat. That PC was in good armor, doing the appropriate thing to survive. Your response is neither appropriate nor reasonable.

Additional, semi-relevant information:
The player had already been using pregens at a local con to get 2 of the 3 XP that this PC had. So you want her to play yet another pregen when she was p[laying a perfectly legal PC who was legal for the table?

2nd level PC, in sub-tier 3-4 of a 1-7 scenario.

As a matter of fact, other than "Don't play.", we, GM included, were giving her good advice.

Caryatid column:
Damages weapons when the weapon hits them, so don't attack.
If you aren't attacking anyhow, you should just go with Total Defense, to increase your AC, and reduce their chance of hitting you.
2nd level fighter with a base AC of 20, Total Defense made it 24. That is a good AC for APL4, not so?

The casters needed someone to block the advance of the columns, so they can get spells off to try and destroy the columns.

Oh, and her PC had both the best AC and the best hit points in the party.

So, other than "Don't play this scenario, or don't play the PC you have built, and play yet another pregen that is, at best, not the build she wants to use, what would your reasonable advice be?

Or would your advice just be to kill her PC, with an evil laugh, and drive yet another new player away from PFS?

Andoran ***

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Adamah wrote:
Cool, which scenario is that? Maybe they'll do a scenario next year to go along with the Numeria AP. I really only want it to have a legitimate reason to use this miniature. I know I could say his space suit is really just his armor, but it would be so much more awesome if he was actually wearing a pressure suit.

If the scenario is the one I think it is, and I am fairly confident of that, it won't be of much value for your desire to use that mini, anyhow.

Besides, IIRC, that scenario is older than Distant Worlds.

If you really want to see:
Pathfinder Society Scenario #2-05: Eyes of the Ten—Part III: Red Revolution

A Pathfinder Society Scenario designed for 12th level characters (Tier: 12).

You and your fellow Pathfinders are hot on the trail of the traitor to the Pathfinder Society as Venture-Captain Eliza Petulengro once again sends you into the Maze of the Open Road to track the traitors' co-conspirators. Stepping through a portal, you find yourself on the cold, red desert planet Akiton, fourth planet from the sun and Golarion's outward neighbor. You arrive in the midst of revolution, however, and are quickly embroiled in the politics of a new world. Can you survive the frigid, violent revolution of the alien Akiton and put an end to the Society's traitor once and for all?

Red Revolution is the third scenario in the four-part Tier 12 Eyes of the Ten campaign arc. It is the sequel to Pathfinder Society Scenario #54: Eyes of the Ten—Part II: The Maze of the Open Road and will be followed by the arc's fourth and final scenario, Pathfinder Society Scenario #2-22: Eyes of the Ten—Part IV: Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained.

Written by Joshua J. Frost

So, actually, your PC would be 13th level at this point, and have to have also played parts 1 & 2 to even get to this scenario.

Andoran

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Finlanderboy wrote:

A GM that softballs.

A GM that does not know the rules and does not wants too.

A GM that cheats, at all, even for the players. See softballing.

A GM that hates roleplay or combat, and avoids either.

A GM that starts the game off bashing the adventure. I am spending 4+ hours playing this do not start it on a bad step.

A GM that ignores people.

I softball, when it is needed.

Voice in the Void:
Running a group through at sub-tier 3-4. Only melee in the party is the 2nd level fighter, who has a good AC. And this is the player's first and only PFS PC, and the first time played at second level.

So, she is having her fighter going Total Defense, which increases her AC significantly. The caryatid column needs a 16 to hit at all.

So, she has already been hit once, took a small amount of damage during this combat. Her allies are using spells and ranged attacks to destroy the column. At this point, the column hits with a critical threat.

The PC can take a hit, and will be unconscious and dying. A critical, on the other hand, is virtually guaranteed to kill her PC. In the first room they have done more than get background in.

Is it fun for her or me if I then kill her PC, who, at this level, is not only dead, but probably won't be able to be raised?

Think about it.

Andoran ***

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@nosig:

What it sounds like his sheet shows, is a few lines in addition to the ones he quoted:

Liquid Ice (x2) 80gp [3] [_]
Antitoxin (x2) 100gp [3] [_]
Potion Enlarge Person (x2) 100gp [4] [11]
Alchemical Grease (x2) 10gp [4] [_]
Replenished 2 Liquid Ice 80gp [4] [4]
Replenished Potion Enlarge Person x1 50 gp [5] [5]
Replenished Potion Enlarge Person x2 100 gp [6] [6]
Replenished Potion Enlarge Person x1 50 gp [7] [7]
.
.
.
Potion Enlarge Person (x2) 100gp [13] [_]

Andoran ***

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As they happen 4 years before DotS, during Season 1, probably right after Rivalry's end, or just before it. They are 1-7s...

Andoran

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You really, really, really don't need a 20 in your primary casting stat in PFS to be effective.

You do need to be able to take a hit, whether it is spell damage or ranged attack, in PFS.

Be extremely careful when dumping Strength in PF. While normally getting it damaged/drained to 0 just knocks you unconscious, there are some things that can outright kill you with a Strength damage attack.

A 7 Str means that, on average, you will die after the second attack from a stock Shadow. Shadows are only CR3, so they are a legitimate, if difficult, opponent for even a 1st level party to run across.

I won't even go into all the issues I have seen with PCs with a Con of 7. Even at low levels, there will be creatures which will knock you into dying with a normal attack, and straight to dead from full health if they crit. And, at higher levels, spells cast at you that can kill you even on a successful save.

7th level Witch, Con 7 = 6+(4*6)-14 = 16 hit points, 23 with either FCB or Toughness, 30 with both. 9th level caster opponent, casting an empowered fireball, DC fairly high = 9d6 * 1.5, 9*3.5 for 31.5 average damage, + 15.75 empower, = 47 points damage or so average. If you save, for 23 points of damage, you are dead without either FCB por Toughness, staggered with either, and not feeling at all well with both, with 7 points left. Failing the save means instant trip to dead, even with both.

And I know of at least one PFS scenario with that exact opponent, with that starting tactic, at sub-tier 6-7.

Andoran ***

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You might also want to consider the The Devil We Know 4 part series, as some of the NPCs in there also tie into the Destiny of the Sands story.

Andoran ***

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Seth Gipson wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:
kinevon wrote:

Seth, what he is saying is that he would rather play the game, with the full alloted time, rather than have to worry that a GM is either going to be rushing the party through encounters to finish early, or have to call the game before the end, because he needs that last 20-30 minutes to do paperwork, rather than letting the game play at its own pace.

Would you rather play, say, The Blakros Matrimony in 3.5 hours, with a GM who is also making some of the players' play in a distracted fashion while they try to finish up his required paperwork before the end of the game, or have a full 4 hours time to RP that scenario, with all the players fully involved?

As with nosig, I would probably go looking for a table focused on playing the scenario, rather than focused on post-game paperwork during the game.

And what I am saying is that both he and now you are just assuming that the GM is going to intentionally do that. You should not be assuming that. You should assume the GM is going to give you a good experience with the game, and use as much time as necessary to do it (though still trying to get done within the time alloted to the scenario).

If either of you had played with Doug/other GM who says they are going to do the paperwork that way, that would be one thing, but from the way your posts are worded, you arent in that position. You are making assumptions about the play experience at a table you havent sat at.

How is the GM going to "use as much time as necessary to do it (though still trying to get done within the time alloted to the scenario)", while still reserving 20-30 minutes of that allotted time for paperwork?

Compared to another GM who doesn't reserve those 20-30 minutes and thus has more time to work with?
Lots of scenarios can take less than the full 4 hours to be able to complete, even with a GM that isnt rushing the party along, and a party who isnt hurrying.

And, equally, lots of scenarios can take more than the full 4 hours to be able to complete, even with a GM who is rushing the party along, and a party that is hurrying.

Please don't make blanket statements that aren't really blanketing.

Sure, some scenarios can run short. Some secenarios, even, sometimes, the same scenarios, can run long.

Get a group who aren't heavy into role play? 3-01: The Frostfur Captives might run in two hours or less. Another group, heavy into RP, and the same scenario can run to 5 or 6 hours, easily.

Last Sunday, the table next to us, playing Severing Ties, finished early. Because they got a TPK with a bunch of unlucky Fort saves.

Our table, running Among the Dead, ran close to the 5 hour time limit, including the fast-version paperwork, despite having a synergistic team.

Andoran

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Best armor, for a Fighter with a high Dex and still getting Armor Training, actually changes as you level up.

Initially, somethign that gives a fair flatfooted AC while letting you get as much of your Dex bonus is good.

Eventual target would probably be either Celestial Armor or, for a FIghter with Armor Training, Celestial Plate Mail.

Andoran

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Claxon wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Claxon wrote:
This is why literally no one should be without a weapon cord. There is no excuse for it except to keep disarm a viable tactic. They cost 1 sp. Every level 1 character who wields a weapon should have it. Sure, you get disarmed but you easily regain your weapon and it doesn't move away.
Wouldn't your opponent just sunder the cord before disarming?
Yes, but now they're burning two attacks instead of one and they'd need to have an additional feat to avoid the AoO. So even if this happens, it's far less common and more work to boot.

Exactly. They have to burn an extra attack and feat. Without the feat that take an AoO, and the damaged caused by it inflicts a penalty to your CMB to sunder. Making it a lot less likely to work.

Theres also no rule against having more than one weapon cord attached to your weapon. To me it's reasonable that if you've gotten your weapon disarmed once or twice you would take the very reasonable cost of 2sp to attach to cords to your weapon to make it twice as hard to take away.

One weapon cord won't let you use another weapon in that hand. Two weapon cords, under a potentially reasonable inference, would interfere with each other.

And I have never seen anyone using two sets of those mitten clips, which is basically what a weapon cord would be. Something tied around your wrist, then some cord that is tied to your weapon's hilt. Where do you find room to attach a second cord? And if it is too light, it wouldn't hold your weapon against a disarm attempt that can throw the weapon 15' away...

Andoran

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Wolfsnap wrote:
Claxon wrote:
This is why literally no one should be without a weapon cord. There is no excuse for it except to keep disarm a viable tactic. They cost 1 sp. Every level 1 character who wields a weapon should have it. Sure, you get disarmed but you easily regain your weapon and it doesn't move away.
Wouldn't your opponent just sunder the cord before disarming?

No, disarm, weapon dangling from arm, sunder, no AoO because he doesn't threaten without the weapojn in his hand.

Remember weapon cords are a move action, now, not a swift action, which means that they should provoke, since you aren't drawing the weapon, but retrieving an object.

So, given my absurdity:
Greater Trip the target.
Improved Disarm on the granted AoO from Greater Trip.
Iterative to sunder the weapon cord.

Given that my trip/disarm guy uses a reach weapon, he could sunder the cord first, likely without an AoO even without the Sunder feats.

And all I really wanted to do was verify if I could still just disarm into the square instead of disarm 15' in a random direction.

Oh, and for someone using a whip to do this type of thing, and the opponent doesn't have a weapon cord, or it has been sundered: with Improved Whip Mastery you should be able to use your whip to grab the fallen weapon and move it to you. Won't necessarily be an option with Greater Disarm, as that 15' could be behind the enemy, instead of behind you...

Andoran

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GM Lamplighter wrote:
I have the same pet peeve, to the point that I don't allow numbertalk at my table... In terms of hit points, skill bonuses, or any other number. Players should be able to describe their characters in the same terms as they would in real life.

So, do you letr them set up consistent equivalencies, or do you just enforce mumblety g*!&?

And what do you do when the real life descriptions would alreay be a number? "I am 5' 6" tall."

So, is a +9 Diplomacy good, mediocre, or excellent? Or would you just let me describe it as, "I can automatically assist anyone performing Diplomacy."?

Sorry, when a skill number can ligitimately range from -3 to +30 or more, not even counting ACP or encumbvrance, it is hard to force someone to use a non-numeric descriptor withotu a defining table.

Heck, even as a GM, I have to check the spell detect magic to give the proper aura strength reading...

Do Native Outsiders radiate their alignment at 1st level if they are not a Cleric/Paladin?

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Seth Gipson wrote:
nosig wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:
nosig wrote:
SO, I'll just ask to be excused from this table please. Perhaps you can use the time savings from having one less player the judge needs to do paperwork to get in a few minutes more of the fun stuff - you know, the gaming. I'll move over to the table where the judge uses those minutes to provide a little more story/plot/Role Play or heck even a little more Roll Play.

You are more than welcome to have your own opinions, but holy moly do I think that opinion is ridiculous.

You seem to be making broad accusations here that you somehow think Doug or any GM who would try their best to follow the rules in a similar manner arent worth playing under because you wont have as much fun under their table. Or that they will somehow hurry the game along, so they have more time for the bookkeeping aspect of it.

I cant sto you from feeling this way, and I wouldnt stop you from leaving the table if you wanted, but wow.

I am sure that Doug would do a great job of running the game, and it would be fun, I just would rather have 4 hours of fun than 3.5 hours of fun and a half hour of waiting for him to do paperwork for 5 other players.

But you are assuming that the game will be done in 3.5 hours because he is trying to make time to do the paperwork how he wants to. Perhaps the scenario is just short. Perhaps the party bypassed an encounter or two with solid tactics or Diplomacy? There are all kinds of things can influence the amount of time it takes to complete a scenario.

Stating you simply would prefer to have X hours of fun so you cant sit at GM Y's table is insulting not just to the particular GM, but to GMs in general.

Seth, what he is saying is that he would rather play the game, with the full alloted time, rather than have to worry that a GM is either going to be rushing the party through encounters to finish early, or have to call the game before the end, because he needs that last 20-30 minutes to do paperwork, rather than letting the game play at its own pace.

Would you rather play, say, The Blakros Matrimony in 3.5 hours, with a GM who is also making some of the players' play in a distracted fashion while they try to finish up his required paperwork before the end of the game, or have a full 4 hours time to RP that scenario, with all the players fully involved?

As with nosig, I would probably go looking for a table focused on playing the scenario, rather than focused on post-game paperwork during the game.

Andoran

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Shfish wrote:
AntediluvianXIII wrote:
I reckon of you've got Gtr Disarm surely as 'downtime' training you could make it your choice.. but the weapon being 15' is a tactical advantage
Not true, usually it's better to leave in their square and swat them as they pick it up. I had a whip guy that would do the disarm-trip cycle and really tick off the GM...expecially when I got greater trip and swatted them as they went down...(imp whip mastery of course)

Almost exactly. Yes, having the weapon 15' away is nice, but getting an AoO on them as they use a move action to pick up the weapon at their feet is sweet, too.

Especially since that would provoke from any of your allies who threatens them, as well.

Then they stand up, which provokes, and you get to disarm them again.

Then they pick up the weapon, so you get to trip them on that AoO...

Not quite a trip lock, but definitely a way to get someone to surrender without ever having to do much in the way of real damage to them.

Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, etc. When you have a high enough Dex to get 9 or 10 AoOs, it gets a bit sick...

Andoran

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Remember that your readied action can include a 5' step, if you hadn't already moved during the turn you readied, as part of it.

Lifat wrote:
Readying grants you a standard action but allows you to interrupt another persons action. Also... Readying likewise permanently alters your initiative to just after the person your readied action interrupted.

Almost right, but when triggered, a readied action moves you in the initiative order to just before the creature that triggered your readied action, not after.

Andoran

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N N 959 wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Note that that James Jacobs "clarification" is how he would rule it at his own table, and not for Paizo/Pathfinder in general.

That is incorrect. James is not offering a house rule, he's explaining to the poster how the rule works per RAW. Yes, JJ is not the official word on the rules. Which is why I point out that ALL of the special materials in Ultimate Equipment list ammo as "per item". This replaces the CRB use of "per missile" for some material and not others. You buy arrows in lots of 20. That is the "item".

While it's possible that per item is suppose to be per missile, that seems inconsistent with how all other special items are priced.

Unless there is a specific FAQ correcting this, JJ's clarification is consistent with how the most recent rulebooks read.

Quote:
Overall, you are mainly going to find that most GMs will charge you the cost for alchemical silver and/or adamantine per piece of ammunition, not per lot, whether 10, 20 or 50.
Yup, because in 3.5 it used to be "per missile". But the rules has changed. I've already had GMs in PFS acknowledge the correction.

And 61 gp for 20 masterwork adamantine arrows doesn't match the general pricing as given for adamantine items.

And could you point out where in the rules it translates one item into 20 individual pieces?

Andoran

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thejeff wrote:

Other thought: Is the Spellcraft check strictly necessary?

If you don't make the roll, but know or guess what he's casting anyway, can you counter?
Maybe he's yelled it out to his allies. Or maybe he's been casting the same blast spell for the last 5 rounds.

No, it wouldn't be necessary, if you are feeling lucky.

You can try to counter, and, if he is casting the spell you think he is, then you will have the normal checks involved in counterspelling.

If he has yelled it out to his allies, as long as you think he is telling the truth, you are golden. Maybe a Sense Motive check to see if he is telling the truth? Maybe he is just yelling the name of a fdifferent spell with the same area of effect. Same result for his allies, they get out of range, but the result is different for the targets in the area than they expected...

And, if he has been casting the same blast spell for 5 rounds, are you sure that he isn't out of those spells, and switching to a different one? "So, I've shot fireball at you 5 times. Do you think I have a 6th slot for it, punk? Do you feel lucky?"

Andoran

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Note that that James Jacobs "clarification" is how he would rule it at his own table, and not for Paizo/Pathfinder in general.

He is only responsible for official clarifications/FAQ for Golarion lore, not game design issues in general.

Overall, you are mainly going to find that most GMs will charge you the cost for alchemical silver and/or adamantine per piece of ammunition, not per lot, whether 10, 20 or 50.

Andoran ***

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Well, just added a second class to my FIghter (Lore Warden) PC, he is adding some sort of Magus multi-class. Not totally sure if he is going plain vanilla, or Kensai archetype...

Andoran ***

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mcruggiero wrote:

Maybe we are wandering a little bit.

I think the most appropriate question is:

Should the ITS be mandated?

While I do not like the ITS, I do not suppose to believe that players ought not use it. You like ITS, then ITS on my brothers and sisters.

I, however, don't like the ITS. I think it wastes time and, as argued above, I don't think it really aides the auditor.

Therefore, why must I fill out the ITS if I am carefully calculating my purchases?

If you use some sort of written documentation to keep track of yoru carefully calculated purchases, you can use that document as your ITS, as long as it tracks which Chronicle you bought the item(s) on, and which Chronicle, if any, any of the items got expended on.

So, if you have some sort of written documentation to support your "carefully calcuated purchases", you are on top of the game.

For those of you who want to use the back of your Chronicle to track purchases and items used, then that becomes your ITS.

So, what's your problem? If you trackl your purchases properly, you are using whatever you are tracking on as an ITS.

Now, for quick updates, and being able to tell at a glance what your PC has bought or sold or used recently, a separate ITS is better than the backs of Chronicles, simply because it offeres better organization.

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