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kinevon's page

Goblin Squad Member. FullStarFullStarFullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 4,547 posts (5,713 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 36 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Grand Lodge

Either way allows using that wand of CLW at first level.

Main reason to decide which one first would be backstory purposes.

@Rerednaw: Barbarian, Half-Orc, 20 Con, Toughness, and the feat or trait that gives a bonus +4 to Rage stats when with another such half-orc barbarian...

And then spend all your PP on retraining hit points.

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1 person marked this as a favorite.

Add in that trait that gives you a touch range version of Stabilize, which moves into Su or Ex, not an SLA, IIRC....

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I hope the games have not been reported yet.

It is a serious hassle, on both sides, to fix Core characters that got moved to Standard by reporting errors.

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Tony Lindman wrote:
Dorothy Lindman wrote:
But I'm sure those are just rumors.

Yep. Nothing but rumors. Nothing to see here.

One of my halflings has a Caravan vanity. Another has Profession (sailor) for getting folks downriver during an escape. Another has Profession (driver) to operate a large animal-drawn cart. Yet another has Profession (scribe) and occasionally writes seditious screeds or letters with veiled messages. One more has Perform (circus acrobat). He just performs, giving the circus its legitimacy. ;-)

The limit is really your own creativity.

(And if it appears I have a lot of halfling characters ... well, yes, I do. ;-) )

Remember, folks, the Circus D'Alembert is just a circus, with a family of performers! No spies, no secret agents, nothing at all to do with sedition or supporting the royal family....

Family D'Alembert:
Doc Smith and a posthumous ghost writer, 10 books, heavy gravity family circus of secret agents, using their circus skills to foil the bad guys...

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trollbill wrote:
This thread and Mike's response in it might give you some insight on this.

In addition, I can think of at least one scenario where you might encounter the town guards, and it explains their stats, and what happens when (not if) the PCs get captured if they don't get out of Dodge quickly. The guard encounters start out fairly easy, but have additional reinforcements coming in every so often, and those reinforcements, IIRC, get tougher each time.

scenario name:
It is one of the Shades of Ice series scenarios, the one where you have to go into Whitethrone. 2-17: Shades of Ice, Part 2: Exiles of Winter.

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FLite wrote:

James, he wasn't advocating that ruling, just explaining how people got to it. As it happens, I understand how they get to it, I just don't understand why they take that interpretation.

As I said, it is as if people were arguing that, for example tieflings say they have wings that do not grant them flight, and so people were arguing tha casting flight on them doesn't do anything.

Which also leads to contention over whether Infernal Healing (and Stabilize) stops bleed damage or not.

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John Compton wrote:

Regarding the Expanded Narrative boon, that's something I'm willing to explore making more commonly available. One advantage of convention boons is that they allow the campaign to test out an idea, use it more if it works, or discontinue it if it doesn't without causing too much damage. So far the feedback I've heard about the Expanded Narrative boon is "This shouldn't be a convention boon" or "This should be a GM boon," which by omission seems to say "Otherwise, this boon works fairly well with the exception of those issues."

Is that accurate?

No idea on how well it works, as I have never seen it, nor has it been available at any of the recent conventions I have GMed or played at.

I know someone was willing to offer almost anything for a boon I had, but they did not have that boon available for trade.

The convention I just ran for, and played at, had a set of 4 boons available. None of them were this boon.

Greater availability would be great.

Just as a data point:
I have spent all 4 of my GM Star replays.
One was on a scenario I had wanted to replay, as the original time I played it was a bust. TPK, and questionable GMing.
The other three went to replay Dragon's Demand, in PFS mode instead of campaign mode, but to help make the tables, and provide my support for the GM running it.

I am, I think, somewhere around 115-120 tables of credit, and only 3 Specials/Exclusives, out of 10 needed. Along with being in a place that insists on remaining a PFS backwater, it makes that 5th star for me unlikely, so...

Count me as being in favor of wider distribution of the Expanded Narrative boon.

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Hitokiriweasel wrote:
Congrats. If you're at GenCon, I may just have to buy you a beer. Or whatever it is that pirates drink.

Grog, although you may be able to substitute plain rum for it...

@BNW: Keep working on those swimming skills, that dinghy has a leak in it....

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Perform (Oratory), maybe? Make anti-slavery speeches...

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N N 959 wrote:
kinevon wrote:

Just ran a scenario last night where the PCs deliberately have to leave an evil NPC they confront alone, or suffer potentially serious consequences.

My players were not happy about that, but they saw why it had to be.

Right, they were not happy about it because they perceive themselves on the side of good, which opposes evil. Most players and their characters are motivated to wipe out evil. The Pathfinder Society is filled with do-gooders. OOC, players generally seem themselves as good. If you're going to help out evil, most players will try and stop that.

Oh, it wasn't helping out evil, it just was not the evil they were there to confront.

And the rest of the situation was very morally ambiguous. PCs caught by evil NPC after they have broken into his business while trying to track down a different batch of baddies. Evil NPC is part of local High Society, and dealing with his evil is both out of scope for the adventure, but also something that, from what the PCs find, is not easily provable, which would lead to a situation in a locality where the Pathfinder Society already has a bad rep.

"So, you broke into NPC's business, and murdered him. What did he do while you were attacking him? Oh, he tried to run away? Not armed, you say? And you don't have any real proof that he was responsible for anything more than running something that could just be a private temple to Calistria? Do you have proof that that was blood, much less human/humanoid blood in those dark brown stains on the floor?"

Yeah, real good advertising for the Society...

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Thefurmonger wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.

If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.

This would also not fly with me. I bring the books. not a laptop. So you could say you had anything on the flash drive and I couldn't tell if you were right or not.

While I usually have two tablets with me, neither of them is designed to connect or read a flash drive. And, as another poster mentioned, why should I risk the health and integrity of my tablet or laptop on someone else's flash drive?

Seriously, when you plug a flash drive into a laptop, and you use one of the more effective anti-virus programs, you aren't going to be able to do of anything for several minutes, until the drive has been scanned and certified clean. That is neither helpful nor time effective.

Please, if you do own the PDFs, print out the relevant portions, using "shrink to fit" so the watermark prints, and keep those pages with the character or characters who use them.

If many of your PCs use some options, keep those in a separate folder or pocket, labeled, "All PCs"; and keep stuff used only by one PC with that PC.

Heck, last night, while trying to find out how a player came with the modifier to damage for his Paladin smiting an evil creature, it turned out the player was wrong low, not having remembered to update his numbers/macro after he leveled up.

As a GM, if a number or result seems odd to me, I will ask. Hopefully, if you are prepared, it will only take a few moments to explain it, or pull out the relevant pages explaining the ability, so we can get right back to the game.

As a player, I keep crib sheets for things I commonly use, or hgave multiple options that can change things radically, like my high level archer and his bow feats. Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, this, that, and the other.

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Just ran a scenario last night where the PCs deliberately have to leave an evil NPC they confront alone, or suffer potentially serious consequences.

My players were not happy about that, but they saw why it had to be.

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jon dehning wrote:
spectrevk wrote:

...My point is that he actively anti-cooperates with positioning. I've gone as far as taking risks to tumble into position for flanks, only to have him intentionally move out of them to flank with the Wizard.

Yes, the Wizard.

I suggest you stop playing with this person.

If you have a group that "plays well together" you can have a rotating flank setup, where everyone around the opponent gets flanking on their turn, and 5' steps to either setup the next player's flanking, or 5' steps into flanking before their attacks.

Of course, the best way around this costs two feats, Combat Expertise and Gang Up, but if you know this kind of thing is going to happen, you can still get your flanking despite the ... uncooperative. It also helps when the enemy backs into a corner....

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It isn't that no one has come up with a decent alternative, is coming up with one that is feasible. One that protects Paizo's IP, the LFGS, PFS, and the consumer.

Check around, you'll see discussions about photocopies, using library books, sign-off sheets, putting in a special code for a PDF copy when you purchase a hardcopy book, etc.

On PDFs vs hardcopies:
PDFs have many advantages.
You can use them on any device you have a PDF reader on.
Paizo updates them in your Downloads area when they do another printing of the hardcover.
If you lose your device with the PDF on it, you can download a fresh copy.
Hardcopies have a few advantages of their own.
Easier to make notes in the margins when needed.
Can get them signed by developers and such like a fanboy. ;) (doesn't help if someone takes it, though)
They can be used to swat a fly or other irritant.

Sorry, getting silly there.

As mentioned, the online resources have their own limitations.
Paizo's PRD is, mainly, for non-Golarion materials
D20PFSRD has anything potentially in the IP area renamed. And they sometimes include questionable material from Paizo posts that is not official.
Archives of Nethys suffers from being a one-man operation. Errors sneak in, and he needs someone else to catch them, due to "I see what I expect to see." syndrome.
And, of course, things can change on PFS legality every time the AR gets updated. Removals, especially, have been known to sneak under the radar. I think there was a removal of some dinosaurs form AC legality that didn't get noticed for months, for example.

For the FLGS, I bought my 6th printing CRB and 4th(?) printing Bestiary there. But, mainly, I buy other stuff there, pawn boxes and sets, flip-maps, map packs, wet erase markers, and consumables (food and drink, real world style). Pathfinder sales will never equal MtG, for example. $16 per player for a tourney, with 30-40 players? That would be a lot more than a CRB or two, and that is just one Friday Night Magic event, not even counting card pack sales...

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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, this thread certainly derailed.

Welcome to the Internets.

And I am fairly sure this isn't the first time, nor will it be the last, that the thread goes sideways.

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Dhjika wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:

Admittedly I have *never* seen anyone attempt to counterspell in Pathfinder, so I'm pretty fuzzy on the rules. Can you counterspell a spell when you don't know the source of the spell, but only know that spellcasting is happening?

In most systems I've played in, I would say you couldn't.

** spoiler omitted **

I have a spell warrior character - I have done it occasionally. What I realized early on though, a lot of spells you can't counterspell with the same spell, because you have to be within range.

So if you want to counterspell invisibility with invisibility you have to be within range - which is touch. My spell warrior picked spells with long range to counter up with- but still it is a silly class because it is based on skald and when I have 3rd level spells to counter 2nd level spells, the bad guys are casting 4th and 5th level spells.

Well, the iconic spell for counterspelling, and it has range and works against just about anything, is dispel magic and its siblings.

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Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:
The links to the chat were sent last night (I'm GMing so it may have been GMs only) and have been posted on the Pathfinder Society Online Collective forum on Google on this convention's thread.

From an email from Arthur sent out about 3 hours ago:

In just a few hours, we will be closing signups on the warhorn; any further signups will be handled during the con at the IRC chat:

IRC Chat

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Da Wander wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Serisan wrote:
kinevon wrote:
DesolateHarmony wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.

Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.

So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster...

"I ready an action to counterspell an enemy spellcaster."

Completely reasonable surprise round choice. Alternatively, for this particular scenario:

"I ready an action to cast a spell if I hear spellcasting from an enemy." Fireball them in response. Force a concentration check.

First one: Spellcaster is laughing, loudly, like an idiot at the top of the stairs. All he does is laugh.

So, go ahead, make me a Perception check. Can you make me a 40+ Perception check?

** spoiler omitted **

When it's reversed, the NPC never even has to roll,he seems to just auto-detects me...

And that is one of the GMs that this thread is dedicated to.

Me, I try to do it right, both ways. Sometimes, though, and I try to explain it later, the monster has an ability that negates one or more of your bonuses to Stealth, like being able to see invisible. Which is why Gaseous Form, after a while, is a better escape option potion than Invisibility.

Monsters that can use Darkness or Deeper Darkness at will, with see in darkness and sneak attack dice.
Monsters with Scent, Blindsense, Blindsight, Tremor Sense, True Seeing, and so on.
Monsters who are always invisible, up to and including the equivalent of Greater Invisibility, so they don't appear even when attacking.

Or just with obscene levels of Perception, somehow.

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Yes, you can upgrade an Amulet of Mighty Fists to a total of +5 in enhancement bonuses. I don't think you can put the flat fee weapon enchantments on one, though.

Yes, magical items, especially from the CRB, are available for purchase with enough Fame. Items with a +X bonus can be upgraded through the cycle, +2 to +4 to +6. If the item gives such a bonus to multiple stats, though, it has to be upgraded on all the bonuses at once, rather than one stat at a time, as there are no +2 to X, +4 to Y items listed.

I suspect that you are confused by terminology. Armor does not, usually, have an enhancement bonus to any stat, but most armor, past the very lightest armor, has a cap to the amount of your existing Dex bonus you can apply to your AC while wearing that armor.

Chain shirt, for instance, limits you to using no more than +4 from your Dex as a bonus to your AC while wearing it. Full plate, on the other hand, limits you to a maximum of +1 from your Dex to AC.

Fighters, for instance, have a class ability, called Armor Training, that allows them to increase the max Dex allowed by armor by +1 at third level, with another +1 granted every 4 levels thereafter.

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GM Lamplighter wrote:

The rules need to be available to the GM. The GM can't be expected to know your character, and needs to be able to check the book if they want to. If there was a way of 1) proving ownership, so Paizo gets the marketing out of PfS that they want, and 2) have the rules easily available for the GM to reference, that would be great. Unfortunately, the only way they've come up with to do this is to have the player bring the rules.

Some combination of a sign-off by a VO on ownership, coupled with the allowance of an online rules source at the table, would fix the issue - but that's the probelm. Paizo's PRD doesn't contain Golarion materials; the two major online PRDs have errors since they can't be official; Hero Labs also has errors. So you really need a Paizo document with the rules, which only exists in the actual book PDFs.

I realize it's an issue, but there is no solution that addresses both the "too many books" issue and Paizo's needs for the campaign.


The reason for owning the material is Paizo's marketing.

The reason for bringing it with is to be able to make knowledgeable rules adjudications at the table when some things interact strangely, or to make sure that both the player and the GM understand how some of the odder results can come up.

As a GM, sure, I have a lot of the material in my own PDF library, but I don't, usually, have the time in hand to break the game to stop, start up my hot spot, turn on my tablet, and pull up the rulebook/splat book source during the game. And that is assuming the player actually has marked where the item/rule is from.

The down side, as I am sure you know, is trying to carry a ton of stuff on public transportation. I have to do it, too. I use a rolling backpack, which is falling apart, to carry my CRB & Bestiary, my dice box, my folios, my PC binders, my buff/status card decks, flip-mat(s), combat pads, wet & dry erase markers, scenario printouts with chronicles, etc.,, etc. etc. Getting it on and off the bus is a pain, and I can't, usually, make it to the upper deck of the double decker buses, so I have to stay on the overcrowded ground level of the bus for the entire ride. And that is with most of my Pathfinder books in PDF form.

Grand Lodge ****

Serisan wrote:
kinevon wrote:
DesolateHarmony wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.

Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.

So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster...

"I ready an action to counterspell an enemy spellcaster."

Completely reasonable surprise round choice. Alternatively, for this particular scenario:

"I ready an action to cast a spell if I hear spellcasting from an enemy." Fireball them in response. Force a concentration check.

First one: Spellcaster is laughing, loudly, like an idiot at the top of the stairs. All he does is laugh.

So, go ahead, make me a Perception check. Can you make me a 40+ Perception check?

Chalfon’s image continues to laugh maniacally at the top of the stairs. Being an illusion, he can’t carry on a conversation with the PCs. The real Chalfon hopes at least one PC will interact with the image, distracting the party so he can buff himself with defensive spells while his replica’s laughter masks the sound of his casting. Once the image dissipates, he attacks the nearest PC.

So, image making noise at the top of the stairs. Caster, invisible, not moving, casting somewhere else.

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Dave Setty wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Dave, please stop being intentionally obtuse.
Hmm, I hate it when people do that, and here I am doing it. Result of posting angry. I'm very, very sorry. More thoughts later.

My apologies in return, I was rude.

Sometimes things obvious to one person are not obvious to another. I should have been clearer in my original post, as well.

To be honest, I have been having more and more issues with GMing Standard PFS. I can do it, but the fun gets harder and harder to find. Core is easier on my poor mind, so it is easier to have fun, which makes for more fun at the table, on both sides of the screen.

Grand Lodge ****

We covered the open spell slots earlier, he was copying from an earlier list of spells prepared, from a previous game, at a lower level.

There are potential benefits, by the way, from leaving a slot or two open, especially if you have a way to prepare them quickly. They can help get the "perfect" spell for a circumstance that was unforeseen earlier. Normally, it tales 15 minutes to fill that open slot, but there are a couple of feats that can help that, reducing time to one minute with one, and halving it with another, for 5 rounds with both.

Of course, the more spells in your spellbook, or at least the wider the effects range, the better this works.

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DesolateHarmony wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.

Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.

So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster...

Grand Lodge ****

Something to remember, because it is easy to forget:
Adding a new spell to your spellbook is fairly cheap, depending on level.

Assuming you don't have a Blessed Book, so, new spell acquisition, outside of freebies form enemies, or from PC casters:

1st level: 15 gp (10 to scribe, 5 to purchase access from a generic NPC Wizard)
2nd level: 60 gp (40 to scribe, 20 for access)
3rd level: 135 gp (90 to scribe, 45 for access)
4th level: 240 gp (160 to scribe, 80 for access)

With a Blessed Book, of course, the cost drops to just the access cost, but the book costs 12k gp.
With the Cypher Script feat (I think it is), scribing cost drops by half, access cost remains the same.

There are a couple of other feats of note, too, like the one that lets you fill an open slot in one minute, instead of 15 minutes...

Grand Lodge ****

pH unbalanced wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
If an invisible spellcaster gets surprise, and uses their standard action in the surprise round to cast a spell, the verbal component of that spell doesn't nullify the fact that it is a surprise round, that the defender can't act, and that the defender is flat-footed.
That's true, but that doesn't equate to "can't react".
We must be doing that thing where we aren't using using words the same. Doesn't flat-footed = can't react?

Depends on Combat Reflexes with weapon drawn, or Uncanny Dodge.

And, in no case, would it negate the ability to try and make a Reflex save against the spell.

The issue, of course, is that even if you can make the Spellcraft check, with the penalties for the caster being invisible, and the explicitly loud noise from another source, that won't do anything to spoil your flatfootedness.

And, of course, this brings up the lovely issues with things like Diviner Wizards, who can always have a chance to act during the surprise round. Sometimes, it just isn't going to help.

"Okay, you go on 23. You see the <redacted>, laughing maniacally, at <redacted>. What do you do?"

Sometimes, being able to go fast is not, necessarily, a good thing. Sure, you may no longer be flatfooted, but it is hard to react to something that hasn't happened yet.

Sure, I'll let you go during the surprise round, but if you don't know what's going to happen, how does it help?

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Avatar-1 wrote:
Jesse Davis wrote:
You may also wish to checkout APCon 2015, which is an Online convention coming up next weekend. Session List Here
Where was that advertised (aside from

Well, Arthur posted something in the Online Play section here, then sent out a link to it on PFSOC, back on May 25th.

My copy of that email shows a thread length of 78 responses...

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Steven_Evil wrote:

How is it that I am only just now learning about this?!

How often do the online cons happen? I have been trying to find a way to play and GM in a con setting like that but couldn't find anything near me. Guess I'm going to go offer my GM services and see what happens...

As to just learning about it? Not sure. The Online Play section of the boards here has been around for a bit, and I know that the PSOC has been mentioned and linked for some time even before that sub-forum opened.

I believe that the first of the online conventions was after we got our first online VC, and, checking my records, I think they started, with a mix between online conventions and online game days, in 2013.

Since then, I have seen about 2 online cons a year, along with 1 or 2 VTT Game Days, IIRC.

Best bet, if possible, is joining the Pathfinder Society Online Collective, a Google group, as that is where a lot of the online convention stuff is promulgated.

Note: If you use the Fantasy Grounds II VTT, there is an active PFS section on their boards, and they also hold regular online conventions, FGCon, which usually includes PFS games.

Disclaimer: FG2 is a paid VTT, with a free demo which some GMs can allow you to use in their games, but many GMs don't have an Ultimate subscription, but instead a Standard, which only allows actual paid users to connect to.

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TetsujinOni wrote:

Marty: most of it is static content that doesn't require update more than annually.


Agreed. But it would be nice to be able to link to specific sections for answering our newcomers' questions. ;)

I should probably have put (wishful thinking) instead of IMO.

That, and some of the sections could be "living documents" for things like all the information on each faction as a whole; background, people of note, traits, ongoing desires/targets (faction goals for this season), special vanities, etc.

Don't mind me, I like to make other people work hard.

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The Morphling wrote:
kinevon wrote:

Sorry, fixed it.

** spoiler omitted **

I downed every single member of the party except the greater invisible, magic-jarring witch in that fight. Then the witch possessed the magus, slumber hexed the sorcerer, and commanded the others to stop fighting, saving the party.

Assuming you're referring to the same scenario.

No idea, since I would think your witch and sorcerer are party members?

Scenario name:
2-21 The Dalsine Affair

stuff gets spoiled:
The BBEG in that scenario is a Magus, and he is a single foe, so he, as the BBEG is set at sub-tier +3, it looks like.
Sub-tier 1-2, he is level 4.
Sub-tier 3-4, he is level 6
Sub-tier 6-7, he is level 9

And his opening move, in each sub-tier, is likely going to knock out or outright kill at least one PC.
1-2, opens with an attack from invisibility, with a shocking grasp on his rapier (18-20)
3-4, opens with an attack from invisibility, with either shocking grasp (5d6) or frigid touch (4d6+staggered), on his rapier (18-20) [I guess we should be happy he just makes his rapier +3, instead of +2 keen]
6-8, opens with a 9d6 fireball, empowerd. In this sub-tier, his rapier is keen, for his follow-up melee attacks.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:
DarkPhoenixx wrote:
It is applied to attack roll, but not damage roll (unless special conditions like agile weapon or swashbuckler grace or whatever its called).
Neither of those apply to ranged weapons though

But the fifth level Gunslinger ability does.

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Regarding Sielan, I am getting some different numbers for a few things, might be something I am missing.

numbers and stuff:
No ethnicity?

I would assume you realize you have a 3rd and 4th level spell slot open.

Skill points spent: 52 of 52, including 2 from Wiz FCB
Spellcraft, with 10 ranks, comes to +16, 10 ranks, 3 class skill, 3 from Int mod.

From Alertness, either Sense Motive is +9, or all 5 FCB go to hit points, so 112 instead of 110.

Feats: As you know, you have one unspent feat left.

Languages: Several short. Common for free, ethnic, if any, for free, 2 from Int, 1 preset from the headband.

Telekinetic Fist appears to do 1d4+2, since you are only a 5th level Wizard.

Also, and this is purely IMO, your spell loadout could be better. For instance, as a Transmutation spell, haste is useful, and is something that can benefit the whole party. Remember that extra speed or extra attack, and their effects, are part of your contribution. Just one example of a minor change that can help the whole party, and increase your sense of contributing.

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Dave Setty wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Dave, as mentioned, the problem is not figuring out how the Arcanist works, but the Arcanist [Zuvembie], with the Swashbuckler [Aurochs], the Fighter [Lore Warden], the Magus [Kensai, Bladebound], and the legacy Aasimar Oracle of Life

I've seen multiclass characters, but never one with that particular combination of five classes.

kinevon wrote:
who channels for 4d6+1.

Roll 4d6+1, heal everyone within 30' for the result. For more details, see the Cleric class description in the Core Rulebook.

kinevon wrote:

Core: 7 races, 11 classes, hundreds of builds.

Standard: 11+ races, 28+ classes, dozens (hundreds?) of archetypes, thousands of builds.

7th level Standard PC: 7 class levels (from between 1 and 7 classes), 4 feats, 2 traits.

7th level Core PC: 7 class levels (from between 1 and 7 classes), 4 feats, 2 traits.

Dave, please stop being intentionally obtuse.

That was a list of five separate PCs, since you are dealing with a table with 4-7 Pcs for a legal table, every time. That is 4-7 different sets of the 28 classes, plus any of the applicable archetypes for the class, plus any of about 20 races, counting boon races, plus racial traits, plus all the various feats from umpteen books, and spells from all of those book sand more.

1-7 different classes, each with 0-2 archetypes, each with its own set of feats, any caster class with spells prepared/known, plus spellbooks for prepared casters, or divine spell lists for divine prepared casters, and various FCB beyond the basic +1 hp/sp.

I have been GMing PFS since 2010, and it comes up, because you sometimes need to verify that character X can do unlikely thing Y, or has some way of being able to do damage in the googleplex range.

So, I listed a group of PCs, all with different classes, with those classes modified by one or more archetypes, one of them using a racial FCB to be able to use their ability at a significantly higher level of ability than normal for class and level.

And your comment about 7th level PCs? It is NOT just a SINGLE 7th level PC, it is 4 to 7 such PCs at the same time.
In Core, all the PCs fall within a set of 11 basic classes, from 7 basic races, using feats, spells and abilities primarily from one rulebook. So, 7 7th level PCs: 49 class levels, up to 56 feats, 14 traits, potentially adding some multiple of 2 to that.

In Standard, you get the same numbers, but the source is much wider, with the possibility of someone accidentally using something that is not PFS legal, or has been removed form legality (see dinosaur animal companions, Undead Lord, Synthesist, APG Summoner, etc.); and the interactions of all those things, including some that fall under the law of unintended consequences.

I have a Standard campaign Wizard who actually has two schools of magic that are forbidden to him, not just difficult to use, but, due to a single level dip, can cast spells from those schools without a problem. Figuring out what is going on, however, requires using multiple books and references, even before you get into his spellbook. At this point, and the reason I, as a GM, like to know what is going on, is because it is incredibly easy to get some of these pieces confused.

And we won't even get into the stuff that falls into gray areas, or requires GM adjudication. And, even in PFS, there are things that do so.

Is a fauchard a polearm?
Would a small Fauchard, wielded by a medium character, still give Reach?
Does a Reach weapon threaten on the corner diagonal non-adjacent squares?

Of those three questions, only one applies in Core.

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Well, my Oracle with the Tongues curse has purchased deathwatch eyes, just so he doesn't have to worry, as much, about whether anyone in the party speaks Celestial or Terran...

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Andrew Christian wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Eric Ives wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

I do not believe that was ever the intent, and I'm not going to hold anyone to it.
I doubt it was the intent, but it is the rule. Barring the rule changing or PFS specific ruling being made (which I would really like to see), ignoring it is technically cheating.
You know, it really is ok to take intent into consideration when interpreting a rule. Real courts and judges do.

Real courts and judges also create an enforceable precedent, and haven't been told repeatedly to stick to what the rules say to avoid table variation.

I think the rule should be changed, but I also don't think it's a good idea to have a VC saying it's okay to ignore a rule when it's inconvenient.

I'm not saying to ignore a rule. I'm saying that I'm taking intent into account.

And I'm tired of your constant insinuations to be honest.

This game is a game of rules, true. And largely the advice I give publicly on the boards is conservative towards RAW. However, at some point, you have to look at intent. If you are slave to strict RAW all the time, then this is no longer a roleplaying game. Its a computer simulation. I prefer to play a roleplaying game.

Oddly enough, I, for once, agree with Andrew.

But I would also like to remind everyone that Mike has mentioned that he wants to encourage the use of common sense, and I think this is a situation where common sense should override slavish, and, honestly, jerky, adherence to a rule that wasn't designed to handle this kind of situation.

Honestly, worse case scenario should be treating Unchained as an archetype for retraining purposes, or retraining class features, which should reduce the cost down, if necessary, as well.

1st level: Weapon finesse (bonus feat, Unchained, added)
2nd level: no differences
3rd level: Danger sense (trap sense+), Finesse training (Unchained, added)
4th level: Debilitating Injury (Unchained, added)
5th level: Rogue's edge (Unchained, added)

5 class features changed or added, but only one thing modified from CRB Rogue, trap sense to danger sense. So, 5 features, 5 days each, 25 days, 25 PP (still ugly), 1250 gp.

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Cerberus is just a name that Styx with you. (Bah dah dum)

Now, Cerebus, of course, is an aardvark (IIRC) of a different setting.

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Heh. Playing Of Kirin and Kraken the other day, 3 PCs plus a pregen.

Our PCs were:
Arcane Trickster 11
Rogue/Sorcerer/Something 10
Magus 8
Iconic pregen 7
APL 9, so lower sub-tier, no adjustment, as appropriate.

Our pregen, since we were all somewhat squishy arcane casters, was the Warpriest, to proivide both Divine casting and a sturdier melee type to the mix.
I ran him, not terribly well, and he was still walking us through most of the encounters, even though he was the lowest level at the table.
I will admit, however, that all the arcane castery goodness did have an effect on things.

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LazarX wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Since an evil outsider can achieve risen status, see at the very least Wrath of the Righteous AP, I can see an argument to be made against smiting any evil outsider and the same applies to chromatic dragons, I forget the term for good aligned ones. I even dimly remember there is a good aligned ghost dragon somewhere. So paladins should probably hold on the smiting until the critter in question does something the paladin can say is inarguably evil in his presence, like kicking a puppy.

Those are extremely RARE, in most cases UNIQUE cases. One redeemed demon in Wrath of the Righteous should not cause ANYONE, much less a Paladin to stay her blade against all of the others coming out of the Worldwound for any reason other than tactical. If you see a Red Dragon taking wing, it's still far from unreasonable prejudice to decide it's up to no good.

One redeemed individual does not redeem races with evil tendencies, much less those beings like demons who are chaos and evil INCARNATE.

Unless, of course, it happens to be an arcane caster using any one of the numerous polymorph spells that can make someone appear to be something totally different.

Form of the Dragon I-III lets a Wizard or Sorcerer, or anyone with enough UMD, to take the form of a chromatic or metallic dragon.

Giant Form I-II: Is that Giant a Hill Giant, or a polymorphed sorcerer/wizard?

Reincarnate: What type of creature did that Druid bring the dead being back as? (Just because PCs can't use it, doesn't mean that it is blocked from NPCs)

Shapechange, just so you don't know if that dragon you are looking at is the treant you just saw a moment ago.

Not to mention various Illusion spells that can make something appear totally different, including making nothing seem like something, or vice versa.

"Oh, look, it's a red dragon. Smite it! ... Oh, hey, where'd Ezren go?"

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Rei wrote:

Yes. The current legal races are the core seven, tengu, kitsune, nagaji, and wayang.

In the future, kindly make a new thread rather than necroing a thread from early 2012.

Heh. And if he hadn't, someone else would have complained about someone starting a new thread when there was a perfectly titled old thread on the subject to use.

No way to win for losing on this kind of thing.

Note that, to use tengu, kitsune, nagaji, or wayang in PFS< you will need to have a legal copy of the stats for the race, and any race-specific options you choose to use.

Also verify that said option(s) are legal in the Additional Resources document.

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Dave Setty wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

It's complex enough that I don't even question players when they bring new rules to the table. I just expect them to be right, and roll with it.

And when they DON'T know how the rules work, I have to examine and rule on them. That is far more complex than ruling on Core material that everyone has been playing with from the start. As opposed to figuring out how the Arcanist works at table.

Figuring out how the arcanist works is no more complex - in fact, considerably less so - than figuring out how the druid works. And figuring out how an entire class works at the table is not something the GM has to do - if there's some odd interaction between a particular part of a PC build and whatever the scenario is doing, you just read that particular rule, pick an answer and move on. It's just not that hard.

Dave, as mentioned, the problem is not figuring out how the Arcanist works, but the Arcanist [Zuvembie], with the Swashbuckler [Aurochs], the Fighter [Lore Warden], the Magus [Kensai, Bladebound], and the legacy Aasimar Oracle of Life who channels for 4d6+1.

It doesn't take much work on any one player's part to increase the complexity level. Add in another 2-5 players, and the complexity can go way up. Add in all the options in Standard play, and even saying, "I am playing a Rogue." becomes more complex. Core, Unchained, Scout, or other archetypes?

Core: 7 races, 11 classes, hundreds of builds.
Standard: 11+ races, 28+ classes, dozens (hundreds?) of archetypes, thousands of builds.

Not even counting the non-Core spells, feats, traits, and mundane & magic items.

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I also know of at least one faction mission (Old Taldan one, IIRC) which asks for virtually this set of actions from its members.

"Let X (and only X) know why he is being executed, then kill him."

CdG is not evil. If a GM uses it on PCs when it is uncalled for, it can be a jerk act. Especially at low levels when the PC isn't likely to have the wherewithal to afford a raise dead, yet.

Potentially, killing a helpless person can be an evil act, but is not necessarily one.

Killing a prisoner, someone who surrendered to you, is likely an evil act.

Killing someone who got knocked out, or stabilized, may not be an evil act, depending on the target. Jim Bob, Mook #3, might be redeemable, if shown kindness. Cassandra, the high priestess of Rovagug. probably not.

Location, also, has an effect. Inside Absolom, it is easy enough to deliver a prisoner to the lawful authorities. At the foot of the central mountains on the Kortos Isle? Not so easy, and could, easily, backfire, by allowing evil meanie to wake up and start negative channeling again while moving them for hours on end to get to some place with legal figures.

There is no cut-and-dried answer. None.

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Rules question, not PFS question.

And, IIRC, Fireball includes instructions on obstructions in the AoE, and what happens if the Fireball does enough damage to blow through the obstruction.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
The CN cleric of lamashtu that runs a home for orphan monsters also pings as evil.

Any XN cleric of an XE deity will ping as Evil, even though they are, themselves, neutral, and possibly even legal PFS PCs.

Not to mention that I have a CG PC who still pings as Evil, and probably registers as multiple sources of Evil, all on his own.

He has a mobile tattoo that pings as Evil, he has an Ioun stone orbiting his head that pings as Evil, and he might have other things on or about his person that register as Evil. He, however, is a worshipper of Cayden Caylean, and has even done some work for the temple, at one point, dealing with an infestation of Evil there, including a succubus...

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1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quadstriker wrote:

Did anyone link this yet?

Guide to PFS Organized Play

I'm still trying to figure how we (meaning Paizo and the community) can better make it clear that this document is the *first* resource to consult, and that it *really does* answer the questions you have.

Any thoughts?

No one had posted the actual link (and I linkified yours), but it was mentioned upthread.

Maybe add the suggestion to the discussion going on on how top make the Additional Resources link more obvious, and better named, that the Guide link should be enlarged to make it more obvious?

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Pink Dragon wrote:


Slots at on-line Cons do tend to fill up quickly, especially the prime time ones, and yes the bookings are normally opened up several weeks to a month in advance.

However, as more GMs offer to run tables, more tables are opened as the Con date approaches. The best advice I can give is to watch the boards regularly and sign up immediately if you see something you like open at a time you like.

Also, if you do sign up early and later find out you cannot play, it is polite to withdraw your sign up as far in advance as possible.

Also, don't hesitate to signup as an alternate, as sometimes people can't make it at the last minute, and the GM works their way down the alternate list to fill their table.

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thecursor wrote:
Steven Huffstutler wrote:

Pffft... Harsk is the best Pregen there is!

You're the funniest person in the world right now.

Heh. I have seen someone unable to get any mileage from some of the other pregens, while others play the same pregen to great effect.

Some have issues with the Arcanist at first level, claiming she has nothing useful for combat.
Ezren, of course, has a high chance of dying from rolling initiative.
Merisiel, as many will claim, is a Rogue!
I have seen Valeros take it early.
Kyra probably has the highest number of deaths as a pregen, although that is, in part, because she is probably also the most often used pregen...
I saw someone fumbling the Summoner the other day, in Fane of Fangs.
Equally, I saw someone who wanted to play Ezren, at 7th, not able to understand the difference between spellbook and spells prepared. Nor that, once cast, a spell was no longer prepared. Made fro an interesting game, especially when he wanted to cast, yet again, dispel magic, and the only spell active was my PC's ghostbane dirge on an incorporeal undead...

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UndeadMitch wrote:

There were two ideas hit upon that I thought made sense to me. The first is renaming the Additional Resources page to something that is a bit more intuitive to new people, like maybe "PFS Legal Material". Related to that, maybe separating it out of player resources wouldn't be terrible, it might make it easier for people to spot.

The second was including the Additional Resources in the GtOP. Personally, I think that would make the guide too long, but what about putting the PDF for the latest AR document in the same ZIP as the newest guide when it comes out each year. Is that something that could work?

Back in the early days of PFS, the Additional Resources were included as Page 30 (and maybe one or two more) in the Guide.

It was moved out, onto the web site, because it was too difficult to update for new releases as part of the Guide, and, additionally, because it rapidly grew too big for inclusion. Last time I looked, the Additional Resources PDF was something on the order of 32 pages, almost as big, on it sown, as the Guide itself.

And, as another observation, because of how infrequently the Guide is updated, it should just give the link to the web page with Venture Offer information, rather than include the current information at the time of publication in the Guide, since VOs change, sometimes rapidly. I believe there was a thread where someone had some issues contacting one of the VCs in the Guide, where it came out that he had since retired form being VC, which was updated on the web page but not, of course, the Guide.

Then again, IMO, most of the Guide should be moved online, into a multi-part web document, so that it can be updated or corrected as needed. And so that links to relevant information in the PRD could be added, like for stats and point buy for the character creation process, a whole, updateable section for the various factions and their traits,. etc.

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Minos Judge wrote:
trollbill wrote:

Player 1: What does your character bring to the table?

Player 2: I cast fireball.
Player 1: What do you do when fireball isn't a good choice?
Player 2: When is fireball not a good choice?

I am still waiting on an answer!!!!!! I usually prefer lightening based spells.

I can even see his puzzled expression.

Really did make me laugh out loud.

Answer: When everything but your party is immune to fire/lightning.

... the GM running a 1-7 scenario opens the conversation by asking the table, "So, do you want me to run the Confirmation or Wounded Wisp next session?"

Sorry, fixed it.

Played a game yesterday which spelled out the difference between a single BBEG Magus, and a BBEG Magus with minions.

Given Chalfon's initial start, he was much more effective, although he might not last as long, than the one with minions....

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Manwolf wrote:
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
What is the DC to jump over a Succubus grappling a (bare) bear druid?
Brown bear, black bear, or dire bear? Could be important.

Female mode succubus, female nekkid druidess. What more do you need to know?

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As written, while the Strength damage from a Shadow's touch attack can kill a PC, it is not a death effect, just a negative energy effect.

Under Death Effects, in the glossary of the CRB, it states that, no matter how you died, you have a hit point total equal to or less than your negative Con.

Since it is not a death effect, and dying makes your hit point total, if higher, drop to equal your negative Con, the PC is a legal target for Breath of Life.

Since, unless he has taken damage form some other source, the PC would also not have taken any other damage to his hit points but the drop to negative Con from dying, Breath of Life will automatically be enough to bring up to stable negative or even positive hit points.

So, the PC is no longer dead.

He is not in the process of being hit by the Shadow, so his Strength damage, at this particular moment, doesn't matter, other than rendering him unconscious, per the Glossary.

This leads to a conundrum, actually. Since he is no longer dead, will he still rise as a Shadow under the original Shadow's control, or no?

Equally, if you immediately hit him, after the BoL, with either Restoration or Heal, he would have his full Strength back, and no longer be unconscious. Even forcing a potion of Lesser Restoration down his throat should cure enough Strength damage to wake him up, at least.

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