kijeren's page

From the index looks like it's all in one place but I'm not sure where else it might be so it's hard for me to guess. Things like frightened are listed under Fear effects and Conditions both and the wording is slightly different due to context but it is consistent.

Quandary wrote:

I can groan about this, but I think I'll save it for Q&A with Jason later to constructively hear his design rationale. Even beyond this specific issue, I can tell alot of simplification of wording, to preclude the need for FAQs and the like, simply wasn't done. Confusing wording like retaining the recommendation for Light Weapons in Grapples, when they work exactly like 1Handed Weapons in Grapple is equally what I'm talking about.

I've never really had a lot of issues with vague wording in game. Seems to me the only place it's an issue is on the internet forums. If the wording were perfect people would find something else to argue about anyhow.

Hey - can someone tell me if they've still got the definitions for fear effects in two places?

In Beta, there was one section toward the back, and then a second set of definitions in the glossary, and they didn't match word-for-word.

OK, Here's one for everybody without the book:
Guess what this Feat DOES: "Unseat" (Combat)
Bathroom stall assaults? Grade-school chair-changing games gone bad? :-)

Gimme a harder one - something to go home and look up in... ~checks clock~ 40 more minutes. :-)

Why can't you people recognize my vague and unimportant throwaway statements. <places hand on forehead> Does that go back to this thread? :)

UPS says they left my box on my doorstep in Mountain View CA two hours ago.
~watches clock~
Can I go home and get it now? Pretty please?

When you add the subscription to your shopping cart, if you then go into your shopping cart you'll have the option to start your subscription with the next issue (the Pathfinder Bestiary).

I'd like to subscribe to the PF RPG, without getting another copy of the core book (I've already ordered three!)

Help?

Dark_Mistress wrote:

. . . The only downside i can see is it might be a bit of a pain finding stuff just cause the book is so flipping big. For that only time will tell . . .

I have to admit I love its big size.

I have also started to use > Post-It Flags < to help me organize.

:-)

Where oh where can I find the AC Size Modifiers?

Ultimate Goal: stat my sorc with Elemental Body 4 - Air.

Page 159 says, regarding polymorph: If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, combat maneuver bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. You ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Searching for "Size Modifier", I found that Page 132 lists the attack modifiers, and Page 151 has the "special" size modifiers for CMB (does that mean there's a normal, not-special modifier someplace?)
Searching for "Size Category" turned up stealth in the skills section on page 74.

But I can't find AC modifiers.

Help?

The most important issue, it seems to me, is whether many people are playing sorcerors and enjoying it all through and that's something that playtesting will tell (but judging the playtest feedback may be hard).

I've not participated in most of this conversation because we're using alternate rules for our metamagic feats (3 x per day, but it doesn't use a higher slot. I do have to have *access* to the required slots, though.) Since is my first "D&D" game (well, okay, third or fourth, but the first one that lasted more than three sessions) I don't have much to compare to.

We started as Alpha 2, converted to Alpha 3 when it came out, and we're slowly converting over to Beta as we read the book and see what's changed.

That being said - I'm not sure if its fair to call my post hyperbole - considering the skill in question takes up a full page and a half of test to remember and apply.

Giving each race various bonuses to each type of sese, is not much different than applying situationally different saving throw bonuses against something as simple as poison - as I described. Sure it can be justified and may be more realistic that certain poisons may be easier to resist than others - but is it really pragmatic to take something so simple and complicate it so?

You may have seen my response as hyperbole - and perhaps it was a bit - but I found the suggestion that likens a simple bonus to poison to the various senses bonuses throughout the book to be an unfair comparison by nature - which is what I was trying to illustrate.

I guess, what really stuck out to me, is that it just doesn't seem as hugely complicated as you feel it is. I agree that it's a little illogical to consolidate things and then split them out again... but it just makes *sense* to me that the halfling is the one most likely to taste the poison in the wine, while the half-orc is the one most likely to smell fire burning that-a-way. ~shrug~

For instance there are some feat that allow multi-classer the ability to increase their caster levels. So is the Bloodline power based on Sorcerer Levels or Caster Levels?

I would vote pretty strongly for it being Sorcerer levels, since it's, yanno, the source of thier magic rather than how well they use that magic.

Actually - now that I think about it... Arcane clearly states that wizard levels stack into the caster levels, so I would guess that means the others don't.

Craig Shackleton wrote:

I like these keen senses bonuses, and I don't find them any harder to apply than any other circumstance bonus, like Dwarves' bonus against poison etc. I think they add a little bit of colour to the game at minimal cost.

The Rambling Scribe

But that bonus to poison is always stagnant.

What if the dwarf's bonus was:

"The dwarf is a hardy individual and resistant to most poisons and toxins and usually receives a bonus to their saving throws against it. Against poisons from spiders, however the dwarf is not so lucky and receives no bonus. All other poisons that are injected, the dwarf gains a +2 to their save; unless the poison is a mentally incapacitating one, then he receives only a +1. If the poison comes from a magical source, he receives a +3 bonus. Poisons that are swallowed, the dwarf actually receives a +4 bonus due to their propensity for eating foods and drink that would bowl over most other people. Dwarves receives a +3 bonus to poisons that they breathe, due to their dimished olfactory department. All poisons not listed above would receive a +2 bonus to the save unless the poison comes from a plant, in which case it's a +3; unless the plant is from a tropical region, in which case, the bonus is +4."

Robert

I'll admit I've never DM'd, and I can see how it could get complicated to keep track of all the NPC bonuses. But as a player, when the GM asks for a fort save, I *always* as "is it poison?" (with a very hopeful grin!) and if it were only against tropical plants, I would ask for clarification there too. :-)

Gotham Gamemaster wrote:

I agree with the OP. There should be two skills: a Str-based physical skill and a Dex-based physical skill.

I would generally agree, but how would Constitution (endurance) based skills fit into such a structure?

You need a skill-check to jump across the alley or dive into the water or roll through the melee. But Endurance based things would be less skill-based and more ability based.

...I don't think I'm explaining very well. But it makes sense in my head anyway!! ~grin~

You're going off the assumption that everyone reading this book has played 3.5 though, and thus has that x4 mentality. If they aren't listing a multiplier, there's no reason to assume there is one. A new player would look at that and just think they get 4+int or whatever, not some x4 they've never heard of.

I've never played 3.5, and have no idea where 4x came from. I was just pointing out that the wording left some room for interpretation.

Montalve: No worries at all - not offended, just being a pedant.

edited for typo

i thought it was pretty clear in the fact that you get the skills (+int mod) mentioned in the class, since the fact that you only get max rank equal to your level.

this is only an issue with people who already played 3.5 (and i think most got the right idea, we actually liked it) but for new players it would be confused to state it any thing more clearly than its already...

at least that is how i see it

Beta page 52
Acquiring Skills
At first level, your character gains a number of skill
points dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence
modifier.

The Beta book does not say whether you get only the base number or a multiplier. "a number dependant upon your class plus int" is not the same as "the number listed for your class plus int". the first leaves it open to interpretation for the possiblity for a multiplier.

It wasn't spelled out in the book (not that I saw), so I figured I'd ask the question:

How many skill points does a starting character have? Is it the amount listed in each class or quadruple at first level?

Also, how many languages does a character start with? The same as 3.5 (1 per INT modifier)?

You might get an answer over "General Discussion".

Now Sorcerers have virtually as many different spells available to them at each level per day as a Wizard does and they can cast them more often. Oh yeah, and did I mention Sorcerers can now spontaneously Quicken spells they can cast as often as they want?

Wizards have spellbooks, and thus no hard limit on how many spells they can know. Sorcerers know nine cantrips, five 1st and 2nd level spells, four 3rd-5th, and three 6-9th, and one additional at each level for bloodline.

Sorcerers can’t cast quicken “as often as they want.” It takes a slot four levels up, which means you can’t cast it at all until you hit level 8, it’s not useful until level 10, and you can never cast it on a sixth level spell or above. That means you’re trading Fireballs for Orbs of Acid, or Cones of Cold for Magic Missiles.

I'll re-post when the classes chapter thread comes out - but so I don't forget:
Beta, page 20
Cleric:
Alignment: A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of her deity’s, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.

as stated this says that one alignment axis must be within one step of my diety, and the other can be anything. the section on alignment later in the book doesn't clarify it.

Better wording would be "A claric's alignment may be up to one step away from her diety's alignment along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis."

the 3.5 PHB has a whole paragraph example about you can be up to one step away on one axis and must match on the other. but with that language removed and nothing replacing it the field has opened way up.

I read that as "You can't use a magic wand or a scroll while using Bardic Performnce, EXCEPT for Comedy and Oratory. Because Comedy and Oratory are spoken, you are able to use magic-word-activated items such as wands."

Beta p. 388
Ability Score Bonuses:

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases whose duration is 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

It doesn't actually refer to "permanent" bonuses, only that they're no longer temporary, and in fact it notes that they might be removed.

The adept has Polymorph on its spell list! I know that since the spell no longer exists, this is a typo, but what spells should we use to replace them?

Polymorph gives you Alter Self, Beast Shape II, and Elemental Body I. (Beta page 256)

Fake Healer wrote:

The only thing I would add is maybe the starting letter of the spells at the page top or something. I also wouldn't mind if they were grouped alphabetically AND by level, but that would cause some funniness with spells that are one level for wizards but a different level for bards and such, so I could see that not working so well or requiring multiple printings of the spell in different sections(which is not that good of an idea).

These are actually pretty good suggestions. I concur, including with the reservations.

kijeren wrote:

What's an SLA?

Spell-Like Ability.

Not all Sorcerers get SLAs useful for this though. Arcane, Destined, and Fey all have non-agressive level 1 and 3 SLAs.

I think you guys made a good point, then missed it.

The weapon familiarities give races an edge in the middle ground classes, Monk, Cleric, Rogue, and Bard... they don't really affect fighters or spell casters.

They USED to affect spell casters at low levels, since they ran out of spells fast and can hit low level monsters with next to no attack bonus... but now that wizards and sorcerers get unlimited use SLAs, it's really not a big deal, they're going to go for the ranged touch at low levels, vs the higher damage of a martial weapon.

Roll 3d6 36 times, note the numbers in a 6x6 grid. Select any one row or column.

(I love love love rolling dice, so this method pleased me greatly. I would guess it's designed mostly for high-powered games.)

Tarlane wrote:

Ability score generation- Don't know if it could make the cut because it has a slightly different style, but what I use is a set of cards. Two each, from 4-9. Then you shuffle them up and deal out 6 pairs and those are your ability scores.

We do something similar, but our card system mimics standard 4d6 drop lowest. Use a card set with four each aces through 6s. Deal into six stacks, drop lowest card. Again, gives good randomness while keeping total stats relatively equal between players.

Another method of stat generation that is not mentioned is a standard array, e.g., 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 or the like.

~squeeee~

Thank you!

You SURE you don't want some cookies?

Kirth Gersen wrote:

So, if I understand you correctly, rulebooks should be as confusingly-written as possible, in order to set the bar higher for new player I.Q. requirements?

No. That's taking my statement as the extreme it is not. What I mean is that the terms used in 3.5 and PRPG are clear enough given context and application. I am not a proponent of RPG rulebooks that try to think for the player. I guess I am a child of 1E AD&D in the sense that I think RPGs can potentially elevate players and DMs to a certain level of responsibility as to the way they choose to use the rules, apply its precepts and extrapolate from there (unlike any other game, really), rather than letting them grow complacent by doing everything for them.

The books are not cross-referenced, the same words are used to mean different things, and the GM is often busy running the game.

This is my first game. I read the darn books - all the way through. But there is NO WAY a person can comprehend all the rules without a lot of experience - and if the GM has a less-than-perfect grasp of the rules, then what we ended up with are a couple of very confused and frustrated people.

mmm iw ould think its just work as if you added a new level, just began in level one... now that there is no x4 in initial skills its even less of a trouble

my only question is... the +3 in class skills goes to BOTH classes?

Probably (I'm waiting for the copy of the campaign setting I ordered to arrive at work.) but starknives made it in.

Um... I already printed mine.
Why do you think it is not printer friendly?

and the strange "flattening" which happens increases the spooling time by a whole lot.

But I'm VERY glad they straightened out the page numbering!!

(Note: I'm a noob, and would love clarification if I'm just misunderstanding something...)

Would it be possible to add "per day" to table 2-3, to read "Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells Per Day"
This was one of the things that confused me terribly during my first few levels. Several places mention "bonus spells", but this chart is specifically for bonus spells per day, right?

P7: Wisdom - There's an extra space between the bullet point and the word "Heal"

JUST GOT THE EMAIL THAT MY BETA SHIPPED!!!!

WAHOO!!!!! BETA BETA BETA

my email says "about to ship"...

WANT WANT WANT!!

I've been thinking I could make that version available also when the Beta comes out...

I *heart* duplex printing, and phamplets, and stuff. ~grin~

Horizontal orientation does save a lot of space, and it can also be folded in a little booklet.

I do have one suggestion: can you make a vertical version? You know, an 8.5 X 11 one that will fit in a notebook? The current horrizontal version requires one to keep spinning the notebook in order to read it. It's much less awkward to keep your 3 ring notebook open left to right at the table instead of top to bottom, so to speak.

But I wholeheartedly acknowledge that I'm weird.

As a suggestion for the next revision: Have you ever considered putting per-day checkboxes for racial and/or class skills? (Similar to spells and ammo)

Example: my sorc has Greater Ivis rounds/day. I've been penciling the invis into my cantrip checkyboxes (since I have infinite cantrips) so I can track how many I have left.

We also use the alternate metamagic rules which state that they're only usable 3/day, so I have those listed in my highest spell spaces.

I imagine these would also be useful for clerics (channels per day), and anyone else who has X/day stuff.

While I'm on "future revision" suggestions - perhaps allow more than three digits on the "misc modifiers" for skills? the line looks like it should allow closer to five...

Like I said - I'm coping fine. It was just a suggestion for future revisions. :-)

Thanks!

Hm, isn't the math of polymorphing a lot easier in Pathfinder rpg? Well, maybe space for them is still useful. So here you go!

Polymorph page for alpha 3 sheet

Is that even near something you wanted? It's fillable and should also be savable, now that I finally figured out how to do it...

And while I was at it, I also made my original sheet savable, if someone needs it...

Pathfinder RPG alpha 3 sheet, savable

I did all the math all by myself for those conversions, and only messed up one non-stacking-bonus-thing! I'm very proud of that.

Anyway - this is, in fact, EXACTLY and PRECISELY what I wanted!!!!
YAY!! Thank you SO MUCH!!

If you email me at kijeren at gmail dot com with a ship-to address, I will send delicious shortbread... ~checks calendar~ ...not later than Thursday. If you prefer something else, include that in your email.

Thank you again!!
(and thank you very very much for the savable version of the form!!)

kijeren wrote:

I've already pre-ordered it too, but I'm actually enjoying the loose-leaf binder. I can highlight and dog-ear the pages to my heart's content, something I would NEVER do to a bound book.

(I'm an RPG newbie, and also a fairly well-organized admin type. I used a lot of postits making chapter tabs, and marking every single spell I use, etc. ~grin~)

One of the things I really enjoy about having electronic access to the material is the luxury of being able to print out spellbooks for characters so you can have all the spells in an easy to reference format. It's just nice.

Yes! zomg, how I cannot wait for Beta when all my spells will be in one book!!!

That's actually really brilliant, I should put together a page of all the text for the spells my sorc knows, and all the things they reference.

Guess I'm really not gonna get any work done today. :-)

kijeren wrote:

This didn't work for my high-speed copier/printer... I ended up highlighting the pages I wanted, and telling it to print selection. :-)

Actually I think I sent it to the printer in batches of 30 pages at a time. My computer is a bit old and it was cooking the ram trying to send a single huge job.

I'm not going to mess with it on the Beta, I already preordered it. Having the rules in a loose binder is a PITA.

(I'm an RPG newbie, and also a fairly well-organized admin type. I used a lot of postits making chapter tabs, and marking every single spell I use, etc. ~grin~)

Jason Sonia wrote:

I know I mentioned it elsewhere, so I thought I'd let you know. My group really likes your sheet and one of my players (who does the Adobe thing for a living) modified your sheet (this past week in fact) to make it savable, added a bunch of drop-down boxes, made it so everything adds up automatically, and a bunch of other things that look really cool. If you want a copy of the modified sheet, please let me know. I can be reached at: jaye dot sonia at gmail dot com.

Cheers,
Jaye

Cool! I've meant to make the sheet calculate everything, but just haven't found time for it... Can you ask him if he's interested in making same thing for my Beta sheet once it's up? =)

Salama or Jaye:
I will send delicious homemade cookies* (shortbread is my speciality, but I can bake almost any cookie) to whomever** will make me the above page - extra cookies if the PDF is savable!

~Kiya

*Or my undying gratitude if you don't want cookies.

**Yes, I will send cookies to both, if they both make me one. :-)

hmarcbower wrote:

Yah, I complained about this, too - with the named pages, they can't even be directly referenced in the From-To line in Adobe. Just give me nice, simple page numbers. :) My original issue was that the cover was the front of a page, then the next page was also a front... since it was locked, I couldn't even add in a spacer page, and I couldn't print starting at PDF page 2 (which was Table of Contents, or something. PITA.

Why couldn't you check Print Range->Page from 2-162 then select Subset->Even Pages Only; then print the odd pages?

I'm a bit spoiled with a high speed duplexing color laser at w*rk and just tell it to print page 3-162

This spell causes plants to wrap around and grapple foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.

does this cause plants to grapple:
foes in the area, and foes who enter the area,
- OR -
foes in the area, and any creature - friend or foe - who enters the area after the initial cast

Changing the word "those" to either "creatures" or "foes" would clarify. :-)

I really think that Paizo should make Sorcerors use Spell Point casting as core.
It fits with spontaneous casting the most, and since Barbarians and Monks are both getting "Point Pools", it's no longer such an alien sub-system within the game.

I also think it would make sense with the Sorceror's "intuitive control of magic", to give them much better Metamagic usage (since magic is an extension of their being, not just a field of study, like for Wizards), especially as it's so easy to use with the Spell Point system, similar to how Rage Powers work...
Each Bloodline's Feat Choices now include a Metamagic Feat, so perhaps they would receive that Metamagic Feat automatically, and could choose others at higher levels... That would give each Bloodline a distinctive usage of MAGIC in a way parallel to the Wizard Schools. (Draconic Bloodline: Quicken, Fae: Highten?, Demonic: Contingency?)

And I agree, David, going in the direction of the Beguiler, but for each Bloodline, wouldn't be a bad design option (just alot of work to make a spell list for each Bloodline, though it'd be cool to grab them from ALL sources (+Druid/Cleric/Psionic?))

I'm not familiar with the Pathfinder point pools, but I've played Champions, and I've been begging my DM to let my sorc use a variable point power pool. It makes complete sense to me that if the magic is somehow integral to ME, then I should be able to run out of magic casting only the high level stuff, or only the low-level stuff, instead of "five of these and six of those".

{edited for grammar}

Quicken is listed as a bonus feat for Draconic and Fey Sorcerers...

But as far as I can tell, it's not allowed for spontaneous casters?

Am I missing something?

Any new character to the game should sit down and read the race and class section of the PHB. Both chapters, completely.

This will give them a good idea of the base options that are available.

There is an overwhelming amount of information in those chapters, much of which is not relevant, or contradicts itself. There's a whole lot in the book which requires you to have some existing knowledge, and no decent cross-reference system.

A "Guide" like you speak of could simply consist of the fluff portions of those chapters. (i.e. leave out the mechanics but just have 'em read the descriptions of each).

-S

I'm praying for a really *good* index in the beta book.

spelling: page 7 - CON - final sentence: "retroactively"

grammar: page 22 - Domain Powers - final sentence: "If you cleric is not devoted to a..." Change to "If your cleric" or "If the cleric".

formatting:
Thank you for adding the blank page to the back of the cover!! However... the benefit of this was entirely canceled by the addition of the Alpha3 page. :-( Please remove the blank page, or add a blank page between the Alpha3 page and the ToC, or move the page numbers throughout the book to the other corner.