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That's kind of the beauty of 5e, really. If it was D&D (or PF), it's relatively easy to convert, since you're mostly stripping stuff away.
Vic Wertz wrote:
So, what you're saying is, core rule books for D&D outsold Battleship. Not money generated by D&D was higher than money generated by Battleship, that the Player's Handbook for Fifth Edition outsold Battleship in units sold.
In 2015, Hasbro still sells more Ouija Boards and Battleship games than D&D.
Juda de Kerioth wrote:
Paizo is a pretty small company, actually. WotC is a subsidiary of a big company that sells tens (if not hundreds, considering all of their subsidiaries and licensees) of thousands of distinct products a month. Fifteen items a month, a few of which aren't anything but maps and accessory stuff, is hardly an overwhelming product release schedule.
Edit, just because: And, yeah, it's sad the talent actually wants to eat. If you don't want to be a money farming tool, make your own rules up and get your friends to play with you.
thejefff, D&D is a fantasy game. Make a good fantasy movie with the fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric combo working as a group to overthrow evil. Throw in some recognizable D&D monsters. That's it, all you need to slap "D&D" on it and make it a D&D movie. The general non-nerd raging public doesn't care how "accurately" any movie portrays any source material, and they're the ones that make movies profitable. Let's look at some other Hasbro owned properties that made a ton of money at the movies, GI Joe and Transformers. The only people crying about those two movies (all of which made lot of money, by the way) were people upset that the movies deviated from the Hasbro licensed thirty minute commercials they produced to sell action figures like hotcakes. Complaining about the accuracy of something based on a cartoon used to sell toys. The general public doesn't CARE.
See, the ONLY issue is what's good advice for a studio, as Hasbro will make all of their money on the licensing of the brand name. Hasbro does't sell movies. They sell toys. A movie isn't going to instantly revive the gaming hobby, there is a current edition that Hasbro is selling, so I guess I don't understand your perspective.
That's the one. :-)
Funny, every con I go to, the crowd is the same, with fewer and fewer new young faces every year. Some people who used to play might be coming back here and there, but it's an aging hobby. And, if you look past the frustrating parts of the 5e release and think like a bean counter, you know companies do not leave free money on the table. Hasbro knows the market, there's a reason the 5e release wasn't huge, with all kinds of bells and whistles. The 3x/4e thing proved one thing, D&D (whether you call it Pathfinder now or not) is the only game in town. Pretty much every other game that "competes" against Paizo is so niche as to be insignificant in the market.
Plus, you live near the birthplace of TTRPGs, and have long winters. Trust me, in Houston, gaming isn't nearly as big as it was when I moved here. The RPG shelf space in most stores is a small fraction of what it was in the late Eighties, with six or seven systems, not scores, represented on the shelf. The only TTRPG selling in any numbers that would make an MBA notice is Pathfinder.
The hobby is only truly supporting one system, with a few others being a labor of love for the publishers. That is a death knell.
1. This seems to be important to a lot of people. So I'll grant it is a "mistake".
2. Get over the OGL. It was a WotC thing that Hasbro wanted nothing to do with. It saved gaming a few years of decline, and created a scenario where the company lost market share TO THEIR OWN GAME. The OGL is a good thing for people who want all gaming to be resolved by a d20, but it was a poor business decision if just based on unintended consequences.
3. When they get the license stuff right, I'm sure HeroLabs (or whomever) will have one. It's obvious that Hasbro isn't really interested in 5e as anything but a placeholder, and are in no rush to develop much beyond the core. Paizo is carrying the torch now, the hobby is niche, and it doesn't need a strong D&D to survive, as it isn't a growth hobby by any stretch.
I think Hasbro probably understands the actual MARKET just fine, even if they don't understand the TTRPG market customers, as in, they know how small it is, they know that trying to grow it is a waste of money in the face of consoles and PC gaming (but the license for the video games is pure gold), and they know the name is bigger than the game by a long shot. That you dislike what they're doing is immaterial, they know exactly what they're doing, and are probably maximizing the profit they can get out of the flagship NAME in a shrinking market.
TTRPG had its moment in the sun, don't expect Hasbro to chase the nostalgia dollar.
Forever Slayer wrote:
Wizards was fine until they made mistakes with 4e and let Paizo take control of the market. Apparently someone at Hasbro doesn't think it is worth the fight to try to take that market back, and is happy going minimalist with a well received, well put together placeholder they can give some (if not nearly enough for the typical gamer) support for over time. It's a good core game they have in 5e, it just came out at a time when most of the fantasy RPG money is going to another company, and the market is too small for two huge systems that essentially cover the exact same ground (just one without mind flayers and displacer beasts).
captain yesterday wrote:
I loved the choose your own adventure books they put out for dungeons and dragons, can't tell you how many times I tried to kill off the hero in those by making obviously stupid choices. ah, good times
I loved those also! My favorite had an elf protagonist and a bugbear with a good one liner when he did you in if you chose wrong. Can't remember the name, but it might have been the second or third in the series?
Don't forget they're actually run by business people and not hobbyists.
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Unfortunately, video games blew up. Role playing games have been on a slow slide into irrelevance (market wise) since the Eighties. TTRPG isn't "building up" to anything. It's shrinking.
Vic Wertz wrote:
The statement was simplistic. I should have said "blame", I guess, as I don't "blame" Peter, you, Lisa, or anyone for turning down a bunch of money (some of which probably resulted in the start up needed to get Paizo off the ground). I was responding to the piling on Hasbro, a game and toy company that doesn't pay a ton of attention to a very niche market, and makes decisions accordingly.
Bill Dunn wrote:
I never blame. I'm just pointing out that it's a business, and gamers take it way too personally sometimes. Peter and his investors went with the best deal. Not for the TTRPG D&D, but for them.
Pathfinder pretty much pet 3.5 alive, and kept the hobby from completely falling into ruin. They're the top dog in the market now, and most of the smaller dogs support their product in one way or another, if not supporting Pathfinder being their entire business model. With the market realities what they are, Paizo would have to lose a lot of ground for Hasbro to see enough incentive to try and lap up the lost customers. Otherwise, fighting Paizo with a fantasy game based on D&D, using basically the same classes, races, monsters, etc. really isn't a smart use of marketing and branding budget. They put out a decent core for people that just have to have D&D on the book cover.
The fact that the games are tied to the same setting as the one D&D branded print product (the novel line) that actually is fairly popular outside of the gaming realm makes selling the video games to casual PC and console gamers that much easier as well. Hasbro knows what they're doing, and what they're doing is making money.
I wish they let WotC have more autonomy in the TTRPG market, but I think the bean counters are just ceding that to Paizo. I really dig what the talent came out with this time, and I am a little sad it won't get full on Paizo level support. But, Hasbro isn't a gaming company, they're a game and toy company. If I like what they put out, I'll spend a few bucks (5e), if they don't, I won't (4e). Either way, I'm not going to lament the state of the hobby. It had a good run and let some people live a dream and get paid to game, but it's pretty much going to keep becoming more niche until the only people playing are future hipsters enjoying a "bespoke, hand crafted" gaming experience.
Yep. Petey wanted to cash out. Blame him for Hasbro. But, had he not started WotC (and published M:TG) and made a ton of money, TSR was over. WotC pretty much kept TTRPGs relevant. Just be thankful Lisa and her crew, Pramas, Wolfgang, and a gang of others who were rejuvenated by the popularity of 3x, were there to carry the torch when WotC sold out and bean counters took over the decision making from the talent.
I can't say this enough. In the greater land, TTRPG is about as relevant as Nixon, other than as a source of imaginative people to make TV shows and stuff. It isn't a fad anymore. It's an aging hobby that gets smaller every generation. Not enough bells and whistles. Actually requires, to be done in its full glory, people to gather in one place and not look at their phones for four to six hours. It requires algebra homework level math to keep your character up to snuff. It's is full of opinionated a%$+%!#s with social issues. It has a lot going against it if you're looking for it to be what TSR had in the Eighties. Like, TSR competed with maybe fifteen channels and Atari, Paizo is a relatively small, but successful in its niche company that OWNS what is left of the TTRPG market, and thus can survive and expand. And they're competing against a company that doesn't really care about the TTRPG market (I'm sure the creative talent does, but the money men like money). Otherwise, their "competition" is either too unstable to matter (Shadowrun), niche (Traveller, whatever Hero edition they're on, GURPS), or not even playing the game (D&D). It looks like everything is hunky-dory if you're a Paizo fan, but, apparently you're too busy looking at the water gurgling from the ground to notice you're an oasis in a wasteland, market-wise.
Hasbro knows the name "Dungeons and Dragons" is FAR more valuable than the actual game. They don't give a crap about the game. They want to keep building the brand in the video game market. Any D&D video game will dwarf Paizo's sales. It's a video game. They don't need the game to carry the name and make money.
Black Dougal wrote:
Eh, 4e was just an attempt to make the game more visual with the emphasis on minis and movement. It definitely turned non-mini users like me off, as it added narrative burdens on my DMing if I resisted minis. The biggest problem with 4e, though, was the marketing campaign. It was really tone deaf and kind of messed things up before they got started, and a large part of the base, rightly or wrongly, was already in their feelings before the game was even released.
A lot of gamers would like more material, but I think WotC is trying to get the OSR crowd back into D&D a bit, and they're a DIY bunch. Less pressure on WotC D&D staff to perform could lead to better (if less) product in an edition (that Gorbacz I think has correct) is a "placeholder" to keep things breathing (if only just) until 2024.
The AP thing is pretty brilliant for the modern RPG market, though. Like i said earlier, it's an aging hobby with adherents with less prep time than ever (kids, jobs, other entertainment options like a wife that will take half your stuff if you game like a college kid), and having an entire career laid out for the players, with modules to fill the dead spots is probably the most useful thing Paizo provides for their customers. I mean, the rules really did just come to be to keep the AP thing going, and won't really become Paizo's until their second edition can put the vestiges of 3x compatibility to bed.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the Paizo think tank knew where the hobby was going and knew their market intimately when they settled on the AP model. It definitely paid off if that was the case.
They might be. They can build slowly on the 5e frame for a while to at least keep a game on the shelves and keep the brand relevant enough to try to make a splash on the big Five Oh. A bit longsighted by modern corporate standards, but it's a nice theory to consider.
About my comment concerning published adventures: As was stated, I don't truly believe that anymore, and was not insulting anyone. Right now I am running a 4th edition adventure that I have attempted to convert to 5th edition, and then will be moving over to the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure. So yeah, I don't follow that line of thought any longer. It was a mindset that was born during a time when my only responsibility was school. There are times when I feel dirty running a published adventure instead of something I came up with myself, but that's because it can be tough completely changing one's views about something.
That's the other thing, the hobby is a lot OLDER now. The average age of TTRPG players, I imagine, is much higher than it was in the Eighties. Adults don't have the time to DIY stuff any more, and they also don't have the money to burn like we did when we were kids, so they'll buy one or two well supported systems, instead of getting several systems and making stuff up themselves.
Smaller, aging market with bills, kids, and limited gaming time. Not a great scenario for gaming diversity on a large scale.
I hate to break it to everybody, but the Eighties are over, TTRPG isn't anything close to the market it was when D&D was a huge fad, and console/PC gaming is much more lucrative and enjoys way more adherents. Hasbro isn't going to waste a bunch of time trying to recreate something that was lightning in a bottle and thrived because entertainment wasn't "on demand" and available for a mouse click back then.
I think that one informs the other, though. When D&D was at its peak, it was, even with all of the modules and whatnot, a DIY hobby. Now people expect everything to be available for purchase and download, and, with the tidal wave of instant gratification entertainment available now, the time sink that is creating your own stuff (which was a big part of the appeal back in the day, I think, since we had less distractions) isn't a viable option for a lot of people these days.
Basically, a small number of people want way more content than the hobby can reasonably accommodate, and WotC is going to take a bit of a hit because Hasbro (correctly, from a business point of view) sees more value in the name than the RPG, and is going to concentrate on building the name, not the niche hobby game it came from.
It's sad, but I think gamers live in a little bubble sometimes and don't realize that (because main stream culture is so geeky and SciFi now) the TTRPG hobby that spawned a lot of the meekness is quite small, the market is limited, and, thanks to the mistakes they made during 4e, Paizo (and their supporting 3pp friends) has quite a bit of that market on lockdown. Hasbro isn't going to waste a bunch of money trying to take customers from Paizo. They released a game that feels like a modernized retro-clone and makes some 3x burnouts happy, is a bit easier to get into if you're new, and basically keeps the brand on the shelves. I'm sure they have no real dreams of recreating the 3rd edition (relatively brief) revival of the hobby, and are happy to put out a decent game that people who like to convert forty years of material or like to do their own thing can enjoy, and publish a small amount of supporting material to keep relevant for a while. The brand has some buzz right now, and that will help when they release the video game version of 5E, which is where they really think they'll make their money.
GM Tribute wrote:
I plan on running it more AD&D style, and downplaying the dice randomly deciding if you can figure stuff out, meta or otherwise. Just makes for a quicker game, and adds the element of letting players get away with being smart and stuff. Plus, I have the advantage of knowing none of the group I'm considering assembling have been through the module, so that'll keep the meta-gaming honest, so to speak.
Freehold DM wrote:
Before they started vomiting out FR novels like bulimic frat boy binge drinkers, mostly written by really, REALLY cheesy writers, the Zhents were a pretty scary Fascist group that used targeted assassination, propaganda, and deep moles to effect their insidious plans.
The horrible FR novel writers turned them into a combination of the Germans from Hogan's Heroes and KAOS from "Get Smart".
GM Tribute wrote:
I was just converting that to 5e. Damn, I guess I have to gain a hundred pounds, grow a beard, and stop bathing now.
I will say that the seeds for the whole "RAW/RAI" thing were sewn in the pages of Dragon back in the mid-Eighties, when the Forum and Sage Advice sections gained traction. The only difference was the contrarian replies were spaced months apart, and the moderation was brutally strict. ;-)
"Superior arrogant bigot with 'retro' glasses and a very unmanly beard" pretty much defines "hipster".
Probably because people are discussing parts of a gaming style, not several different ones. Nothing you list nullifies any of the others.
pH unbalanced wrote:
Yeah, the big "SECOND EDITION" on the covers was kind of a give-away that maybe it was a new edition. The sanitation so Christians would stop whining. Yeah, it wasn't just a new edition, it was pretty much a step away from a play style, and a move toward a younger audience (hence the sanitation - no half orcs and their "icky back story", no more calling demons and devils demons and devils, no more assassins). It was AD&D if AD&D were made by Disney.
I started playing in '79, both Moldvay basic and AD&D, and the only guys I consider "grognards" are the dudes with the painted minis, tape measures, and a sand box. Seriously, only the old school war gamers that were around before the three brown books probably actually merit the honor. Everyone else is a n00b, frankly. ;-)
And we care what Uchawi thinks because…?
Seriously, how does the players taking initiative and playing intelligently make something "not a sandbox"?
Vincent Takeda wrote:
Only twice as old? Whippersnapper! ;-)
They used to have things called "sages" and the like in earlier editions. People found out "what was around the next corner" by consulting them. If you go into the mountains and didn't bother to ask what might live in the mountains, and you run into the great wyrm that has lived there for centuries and everyone for hundreds of miles around knows it, it's on you for not asking.