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The chassis for 5e, and one of the reasons it is popular with a lot of older gamers, is built on game theory from thirty-six years ago. It feels like a modernized version of the AD&D game, as if third were more closely tied to the style of play promoted by AD&D rather than a revamp based on the same nomenclature, but with a lot of Rolemaster and Magic:TG grafted to the class and level system.
3x really changed the way D&D was played in a lot of ways. Character creation is so involved that high fatality can make the game a chore. 5e's focus on "at the table" play and quick character creation allows for an older style of play (more fatalities, less focus on "story" driven death, more game than cooperative story telling) without taking away the more story driven, scripted style.
3x focuses on "positive rights" so to speak (skills and feats define what you can do, and hard character abilities almost define what you cannot do), whereas 5e focuses on "negative rights" (skills and feats enhance what you can do, but nothing really defines what you cannot do, outside of class limitations (e.g. fighters don't cast spells, wizards don't wear full plate, etc.)).
Different games for different purposes, and neither does what the other does best well at all, to be frank.
Yeah, I saw some show based in NY and one of the participants was b%$%*ing about a three hour commute over a distance that takes me twenty minutes to drive in Houston, non-peak time, and probably forty five minutes at rush hour.
Gary rides a bike, so I'm sure he can cover more ground faster than most, usually.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Last Saturday all of the freeways were under construction around downtown. The ramp from 45 to 59 was closed, I-10 was closed at the 45 overpass, and they have a ton of stuff going on east of downtown.
Driving home from HWY 6 and Bellaire to Wayside and 45 took twenty-five minutes yesterday, without construction.
Freehold DM wrote:
I mean the Saturday morning '70s show that even non-geeks watched. Space Monkey Gleek and all that ;-)
Stefan Hill wrote:
Yeah, funny how people actually like this edition better than 4th. And pretty much everyone who liked 3rd better has Pathfinder. Win win.
Seeing as the whole thing about "New Coke" was switching from cane sugar to HFCS, basically, I'd say most Coke drinkers probably have. ;-)
Distant Scholar wrote:
You mean, Wizards of the Coast retained the name TSR used for the critter in the first edition Fiend Folio? The one submitted by a fan to White Wolf magazine in the Seventies? Just checking.
I didn't care much for 4e overall, but it did have some nice innovations. I'm glad a few of them made it into 5e.
First game in '79, o I am right there with you on the old school front. ;-)
That's kind of the beauty of 5e, really. If it was D&D (or PF), it's relatively easy to convert, since you're mostly stripping stuff away.
Vic Wertz wrote:
So, what you're saying is, core rule books for D&D outsold Battleship. Not money generated by D&D was higher than money generated by Battleship, that the Player's Handbook for Fifth Edition outsold Battleship in units sold.
In 2015, Hasbro still sells more Ouija Boards and Battleship games than D&D.
Juda de Kerioth wrote:
Paizo is a pretty small company, actually. WotC is a subsidiary of a big company that sells tens (if not hundreds, considering all of their subsidiaries and licensees) of thousands of distinct products a month. Fifteen items a month, a few of which aren't anything but maps and accessory stuff, is hardly an overwhelming product release schedule.
Edit, just because: And, yeah, it's sad the talent actually wants to eat. If you don't want to be a money farming tool, make your own rules up and get your friends to play with you.
thejefff, D&D is a fantasy game. Make a good fantasy movie with the fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric combo working as a group to overthrow evil. Throw in some recognizable D&D monsters. That's it, all you need to slap "D&D" on it and make it a D&D movie. The general non-nerd raging public doesn't care how "accurately" any movie portrays any source material, and they're the ones that make movies profitable. Let's look at some other Hasbro owned properties that made a ton of money at the movies, GI Joe and Transformers. The only people crying about those two movies (all of which made lot of money, by the way) were people upset that the movies deviated from the Hasbro licensed thirty minute commercials they produced to sell action figures like hotcakes. Complaining about the accuracy of something based on a cartoon used to sell toys. The general public doesn't CARE.
See, the ONLY issue is what's good advice for a studio, as Hasbro will make all of their money on the licensing of the brand name. Hasbro does't sell movies. They sell toys. A movie isn't going to instantly revive the gaming hobby, there is a current edition that Hasbro is selling, so I guess I don't understand your perspective.
That's the one. :-)
Funny, every con I go to, the crowd is the same, with fewer and fewer new young faces every year. Some people who used to play might be coming back here and there, but it's an aging hobby. And, if you look past the frustrating parts of the 5e release and think like a bean counter, you know companies do not leave free money on the table. Hasbro knows the market, there's a reason the 5e release wasn't huge, with all kinds of bells and whistles. The 3x/4e thing proved one thing, D&D (whether you call it Pathfinder now or not) is the only game in town. Pretty much every other game that "competes" against Paizo is so niche as to be insignificant in the market.
Plus, you live near the birthplace of TTRPGs, and have long winters. Trust me, in Houston, gaming isn't nearly as big as it was when I moved here. The RPG shelf space in most stores is a small fraction of what it was in the late Eighties, with six or seven systems, not scores, represented on the shelf. The only TTRPG selling in any numbers that would make an MBA notice is Pathfinder.
The hobby is only truly supporting one system, with a few others being a labor of love for the publishers. That is a death knell.
1. This seems to be important to a lot of people. So I'll grant it is a "mistake".
2. Get over the OGL. It was a WotC thing that Hasbro wanted nothing to do with. It saved gaming a few years of decline, and created a scenario where the company lost market share TO THEIR OWN GAME. The OGL is a good thing for people who want all gaming to be resolved by a d20, but it was a poor business decision if just based on unintended consequences.
3. When they get the license stuff right, I'm sure HeroLabs (or whomever) will have one. It's obvious that Hasbro isn't really interested in 5e as anything but a placeholder, and are in no rush to develop much beyond the core. Paizo is carrying the torch now, the hobby is niche, and it doesn't need a strong D&D to survive, as it isn't a growth hobby by any stretch.
I think Hasbro probably understands the actual MARKET just fine, even if they don't understand the TTRPG market customers, as in, they know how small it is, they know that trying to grow it is a waste of money in the face of consoles and PC gaming (but the license for the video games is pure gold), and they know the name is bigger than the game by a long shot. That you dislike what they're doing is immaterial, they know exactly what they're doing, and are probably maximizing the profit they can get out of the flagship NAME in a shrinking market.
TTRPG had its moment in the sun, don't expect Hasbro to chase the nostalgia dollar.
Forever Slayer wrote:
Wizards was fine until they made mistakes with 4e and let Paizo take control of the market. Apparently someone at Hasbro doesn't think it is worth the fight to try to take that market back, and is happy going minimalist with a well received, well put together placeholder they can give some (if not nearly enough for the typical gamer) support for over time. It's a good core game they have in 5e, it just came out at a time when most of the fantasy RPG money is going to another company, and the market is too small for two huge systems that essentially cover the exact same ground (just one without mind flayers and displacer beasts).
captain yesterday wrote:
I loved the choose your own adventure books they put out for dungeons and dragons, can't tell you how many times I tried to kill off the hero in those by making obviously stupid choices. ah, good times
I loved those also! My favorite had an elf protagonist and a bugbear with a good one liner when he did you in if you chose wrong. Can't remember the name, but it might have been the second or third in the series?
Don't forget they're actually run by business people and not hobbyists.
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Unfortunately, video games blew up. Role playing games have been on a slow slide into irrelevance (market wise) since the Eighties. TTRPG isn't "building up" to anything. It's shrinking.
Vic Wertz wrote:
The statement was simplistic. I should have said "blame", I guess, as I don't "blame" Peter, you, Lisa, or anyone for turning down a bunch of money (some of which probably resulted in the start up needed to get Paizo off the ground). I was responding to the piling on Hasbro, a game and toy company that doesn't pay a ton of attention to a very niche market, and makes decisions accordingly.
Bill Dunn wrote:
I never blame. I'm just pointing out that it's a business, and gamers take it way too personally sometimes. Peter and his investors went with the best deal. Not for the TTRPG D&D, but for them.
Pathfinder pretty much pet 3.5 alive, and kept the hobby from completely falling into ruin. They're the top dog in the market now, and most of the smaller dogs support their product in one way or another, if not supporting Pathfinder being their entire business model. With the market realities what they are, Paizo would have to lose a lot of ground for Hasbro to see enough incentive to try and lap up the lost customers. Otherwise, fighting Paizo with a fantasy game based on D&D, using basically the same classes, races, monsters, etc. really isn't a smart use of marketing and branding budget. They put out a decent core for people that just have to have D&D on the book cover.
The fact that the games are tied to the same setting as the one D&D branded print product (the novel line) that actually is fairly popular outside of the gaming realm makes selling the video games to casual PC and console gamers that much easier as well. Hasbro knows what they're doing, and what they're doing is making money.
I wish they let WotC have more autonomy in the TTRPG market, but I think the bean counters are just ceding that to Paizo. I really dig what the talent came out with this time, and I am a little sad it won't get full on Paizo level support. But, Hasbro isn't a gaming company, they're a game and toy company. If I like what they put out, I'll spend a few bucks (5e), if they don't, I won't (4e). Either way, I'm not going to lament the state of the hobby. It had a good run and let some people live a dream and get paid to game, but it's pretty much going to keep becoming more niche until the only people playing are future hipsters enjoying a "bespoke, hand crafted" gaming experience.