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With the release of Ultimate Magic and the variant 'Words Of Power' system, it occurs to me that there is a niche for some manner of application that would assist with the tracking/creation/rule conformity of this new system. Before undertaking such an endeavor, I am curious to know the following:


  • Would anyone even be interested in something like this
  • Would anyone be interested in contributing (data entry, programming, design/art, etc)
  • What features would you like to see in something like this?

My thoughts are to develop this from the beginning as a Open Source project (GPL license), if that matters to anyone but me :)

I wanted to measure interest in the project before I undertook a project that nobody uses, so don't be shy.


I realize that I'm a little late to the party, but has anyone been able to get a firm answer from the developers on the Human Sorc favored class bonus. It appears that they can use the FC bonus to grab an extra word, but I want to make sure because while an extra 'real spell' is powerful, every word you know exponentially increases your options - in a perfect world, at least.


Richard Leonhart wrote:

give the monk a fancy robe with arcane writings on it, a raven/rat/animal, and a big expensive book.

Then wait for the Orc who think "hm, robe+book=mage= I should target", and then pity the fool.

This is just...beautiful.


For what it's worth, I allow my players (by default) to add their CHA mod +1 per 4 levels to channel energy.
I have let them do this since level 1, they are now level 8.
I also let channel energy heal AND harm with each use, dependent on how positive/negative energy affects the character/NPC in question.
So far, none of this has caused any issues with either of my 2 groups - a 4 player group, and a 7 player group.


chopswil wrote:
h0rnman wrote:
Moebius wrote:
I think this looks great, but I'm running Ubuntu 10.10/Linux. Anyone got this working with Linux yet?
Yeah, not working yet because Mono doesn't support the .Net 4.0 framework. You will need to wait until they release Mono 3.0 (Release TBD), or see if the developer would be kind enough to try compiling the app using just .Net 2.0 (3.5 might work, but 2.0 for sure) :)
He does it in WPF so 2.0 won't work

Then I guess that is a 'no' :)

Us poor Linux users will just have to wait for Mono to implement WPF, and with 1800+ methods to go, I don't expect it anytime soon.
Sad Panda...


Moebius wrote:
I think this looks great, but I'm running Ubuntu 10.10/Linux. Anyone got this working with Linux yet?

Yeah, not working yet because Mono doesn't support the .Net 4.0 framework. You will need to wait until they release Mono 3.0 (Release TBD), or see if the developer would be kind enough to try compiling the app using just .Net 2.0 (3.5 might work, but 2.0 for sure) :)


I can't speak for the adventure path contents, but looking at your build, you may want to consider Combat Casting to fill that feat slot. You will most likely eventually want it, and you may as well take it now before you get to where you meet the prerequisites for the good combat feats and start having to make the hard choices


While you do need a specific enhancement to sunder, ALL weapons are just one 'Allfood' spell away from being sundered. I realize that it would require a bit of coordination with Dispel Magic, and a somewhat flexible DM, but every time someone mentions sunder, this scene plays out in my head:

Ranger: "I cast 'Allfood', give me a will save, Mr. Fighter"
Fighter: "Crap, I got a 12. What do you do to me?"
Ranger with an evil grin: "Om nom, nom, nom..."


Out of curiosity, do you have any plans of releasing source or making this an OSS project? I know a fair bit of C# myself, and would gladly contribute, as this is something I would most definitely use.


FWIW, I see preparing spells (Arcane spells, at least) as being like reading a really big number from a book (your spellbook). All that is left is for you to memorize the last 15-20 digits of the number, and say them out loud (you can alternately substitute words for numbers in this example) when you cast the spell.

All prepared casters get used to the concept of reading large numbers or long strings of words (this is your base number of spells per day) based on how much experience that have doing it, some of them become known by rote (as defined by the Spell Mastery feat - I know I can't be the only one who has his credit card number(s) memorized), and a high intelligence allows you to remember more of the 15-20 digit sequences (bonus spells), and extra sequences (known Spell Mastery spells).


Immediately, off the top of my head, I could see an argument for following the standard initiative order, but doing it in 2 parts. First, in initiative order, everyone makes their move action (or move action equivalent, including 5' step), provoking and making AOOs appropriately. Then, after everyone has done their move actions (or not, in the case of full round actions, full attacks, etc), you go through the initiative order and do standard actions/full attack actions/etc.

If you were to use this method, however, I would remove the DELAY option for initiative, as you would just end up with an endless series of delay actions because noone wanted to go first. Not sure how well this would play with HOLD ACTION, READY ACTION, or BEGIN FULL ROUND ACTION, but it could be a place to start.


One of my DMs tried running this for our group. It didn't go over well, but mostly because our group doesn't like dungeon crawls. That being said, most of the enemies faced in the dungeon were pretty lacking compared to our characters (4 PCs, 20 pt. buy).

I would suggest that either you rebuild the encounters using the new versions of the critters from the Bestiary/Bestiary 2, or, as a simpler option, apply the Simple Advanced template to each critter, then make sure you jot down their CMB/CMD totals


Human Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager Archetype)
STR 14 (12+2)
DEX 8
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 9

This could be played as a somewhat ignorant/antisocial beefy fighter type. Higher WIS helps with a lot of your class skills and will saves. 5 skill points/level is not bad (not great, but not bad). Favored class bonus to HP along with d12s, 15 CON, and Archetype DR really helps with survivability, and offsets some of the DEX 8 issues you are going to have. You're not going to be the hardest hitting guy in the world, but a slight focus on maneuvers can go a long way towards making sure you aren't ignored in melee (though a raging 18 STR at 1st level will make sure you aren't too far behind in the damage department). And, as always with Barbarians, toughness is handy. Your first stat buff into CON would put you at d12+5 / level HP (d12+7 in rage), with DR equal to half your level (more with feats/rage powers), and a bit of cold/fire resistance. Seems survivable to me :)


Cwylric wrote:
Flux Vector wrote:
I personally think a lot of the problem systemic, and not limited to witches: it's a problem with "save or lose" spells in general. It just hurts wiches more, near-cripplingly more, because the witch spell list and hex list both are heavily invested in "save or lose" effects. ... My opinion is that spell save DCs in general should probably be reconsidered, maybe to 10 + 1/2 caster level + primary stat bonus.

That's pretty much my feeling, as well. As you say, it's a problem for all spellcasters, but it's a crippling one for the witch, who has such a narrow spell focus. Not sure how I feel about the 10 + 1/2 caster level + primary stat bonus method. My gut instinct is that it should work well, since that's the mechanic most critters use, anyway (which just puts everyone on roughly equal footing). In a way, I'm surprised that didn't come up earlier as a viable option, during the move from 3 to 3.5 or 3.5 to PF. Still, it would have some pretty sweeping effects, so I'd have to ponder it a bit.

On the less extreme front, one of our GMs has already changed the Spell Focus bonus back to +2, as it used to be, pre-3.5, and I think I'll do the same, the next time I ref. It just makes sense, really, when you look at the other ability-based feats, e.g. Toughness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Dodge, etc. etc. All of them add a bonus, in one ability-related area, equivalent to what you would get if the ability was raised by either +2 or +4 (depending on the narrowness of the focus). Why should Spell Focus be any different? Really, if the bonus is only +1, it should apply to *all* schools. You could then have a School Focus feat that adds +2 for a single school. Seems kind of obvious, really. And it takes at least a small step toward fixing the problem we've been discussing - for everyone, not just witches.

I theorized a while ago in a different post that the Save DC curve could be corrected a bit by using 5 + 1/2 caster level + Spell Level + Ability Mod. Not sure if that would help or not though. I didn't get too many responses to my request to make a broken character with that method.


'Rixx wrote:

The only "power creep" I've noticed is with the fighter archetypes - but only compared to the original fighter. There's an archetype for each "fighting school", so if you were going to focus on one (like 99% of all fighters do), there's no reason not to take the archetype version - if you want to be a TWF fighter, you really have no reason not to be a Two Weapon Warrior. Though I do notice that just about all the Fighter archetypes ditch Armor Training, a very attractive option that remains the domain of vanilla fighters.

Of course, this sort of "power creep" is nothing compared to the torrential downpour of poorly thought out 3.5 material. The slight imbalance I'm noting here is indeed very slight - perhaps not even an imbalance at all.

That being said, I love the fighter archetypes so much. Whenever I pick a fighting style for a non-fighter character, I look back at the fighter archetypes and sigh wistfully at all the cool stuff I'm missing out on. Paizo did a really good job of making the fighter an attractive option.

Even in the case of TWF, there are options. I know that I, at least, have suffered the agony of indecision over the TWF archetype and the Weapon Master archetype when looking at a dual kukri or dual light pick build.


Evil Lincoln wrote:


Excellent thread title.

Thank you :)

Eric The Pipe wrote:


My group uses a 10 + half caster level with that spell + casting ability mod, this works great 20th level casters have a higher dc for 1st level spells than 1st level casters and getting +1 caster level to a type of spell means a little more. it also matches how most other class dc abilities work.

yes we have playtested it, in the last 6 campaigns, again, it works great.

Also, thank you for the feedback on this.

The higher saves for low level spells is more or less what I was after, along with some way for melee focused characters to have a few caster levels that actually amount to something, and I am glad that it has not been proven broken. I guess my ultimate concern is that there is some unforeseen Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, Fighter/Sorcerer/Oracle/Bard, etc., combo that would absolutely break this using the 1/2 total HD portion of the calculation.


I've been rolling this around in my head for some time now, and I want to see how bad this can get. I don't immediately see any enormous issues, but seeing some posts here make me think that there are some things I just can't predict. Assume, for a moment, that spell DCs are not calculated in the normal manner of 10 + Spell Level + Ability Mod, but are instead calculated as follows:

5 + 1/2 HD + Spell Level + Ability Mod
with caster level being
Number of spellcasting class levels + 1/2 other levels (or HD)

Now, with that assumption, show me your worst. Make me tremble in fear of the unthinkable brokenness of your single/multi class spellcasters that use this method. Show me that this is the worst idea I have ever had, ever.

I am not trying to inflame anyone here, or start a caster vs. non-caster war. I just want to know what the possible abuses or failures of this modification could be. All classes / levels / critters are welcome as examples.

Thank you in advance! :)


On the topic of Dervish Dance and broken builds, the wording of dervish dance is (emphasis is mine):

PFSRD wrote:


When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.

I can see the argument that your off hand is a weapon and therefore does not qualify you to use that feat if you use spell combat in the same round. I would say at the very least that using touch spells in this way might cause your off hand to be considered a weapon (you are considered to be armed while "holding the charge") and render this feat inoperable, at least for that round.

Thoughts?


Yesterday was my first game session since the playtest was released, and my GM was gracious enough to allow me to try the whole thing out.
My initial thoughts are that this is going to be a solid system. Currently, our characters are all level 2, so that may have something to do with it, but I did not notice any of the potential problems that some have raised (specifically that it would be too complicated or not versatile enough). I can say right from the start that the targeting options were a godsend. Even at 2nd level, the ability to fire off a 2d4 at 2 targets (via Burning Flash and the MASS target word) makes you feel useful as a blaster, not to mention the delight of being able to target specific critters rather than worry about that Cone that is going to catch half of your party.

Our characters being at level 2 did cause some option deficiency from a multiple effect standpoint, but I would imagine that this is to be expected from a game balance standpoint. That being said, it is still fun to be able to hit an opponent with a little bit of (crit possible) damage along with a small de-buff. Looking at the list of words as presented, it seems that Weapon Focus (Ray) would be an enormous benefit, as would Improved Critical (Ray).

One of my criticisms is that the Mass target word seems a little overpowered for just a +1. While it was enormously useful at this low level, and is probably less so at higher levels, it seems that +1 is just not quite costly enough. Unfortunately, I don't think overall that it is worth +2 either. It should be fine, but in my mind it is something that should be considered carefully when designing new words, as there could be some abuse there.

A second issue that I had with the whole system was the CL requirement on Word Burning. If this is a game balance issue, then so be it, but I found in a few cases that I was wishing I had one or two more points for something truly specific to the situation at hand. Given that you can only burn one slot per day to fuel this, my opinion is that it would not be gamebreaking to offer it with no CL requirement.

Finally, to end on a positive note, this does not seem like it will be as complicated and weird as some people think. As a 2nd level Sorc, I had 5 known 0 level words and 2 known 1st level words. All I needed to keep track of all my options was a simple text document that had my Words known, the cost of each Word, the cost of each Target Word, and the cost limits for each level. I had a spreadsheet containing all of the Word information (hopefully, at some point, this will be used as part of an application to help with cost/effect calculations) that I used to look up specifics, but I didn't find that remembering the Effect Word effects to be any more difficult than remembering straight spell effects (the same being for saves/SR/duration/etc.)

Due to the bi-monthly nature of our game, mandatory overtime for some of our players, and the holidays coming up, I will probably not have a chance to work with the system again until after the new year, but nonetheless, I had a good experience with it from a low-level standpoint and look forward to the final release.


This may have been answered elsewhere, but this raises a question I have had for a while. The text of the feat states that you:

Quote:


Roll the damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming),or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).

Does this include the weapon's flat +X enhancement? It isn't specifically called out in the description, and it (in my mind) isn't necessarily a weapon ability. I can see an argument for either case, so an official clarification would be appreciated, if one is available.


This site has been a source of great inspiration, wisdom, and more than a few laughs for me. With that in mind, I submit the following as contributions to the community. Hopefully, there are folks who will find these helpful:

Google Docs Link

Contents are:


  • The Paizo 'official' character sheet in editable, auto-calculating, restriction free format.
  • A 4 per page NPC sheet in editable, somewhat auto-calculating, restriction free format.
    **Note that this sheet's design was heavily borrowed from http://www.militaryfocus.com/dnd/index.htm
  • A spontaneous caster spellsheet and a prepared caster spellsheet in ODT (Open Office) format. They aren't
    pretty, but they are functional.
  • A single (for now) custom spell, with more hopefully on the way

All of these items will be periodically updated, when time allows.


Hexcaliber wrote:
Marshall Jansen wrote:
carn wrote:


In the real world no one, not even special force members with years of combat experience, can ignore a heavy crossbow even if its wielded by a child. That doesnt mean, that i would not bet on the soldier vs the child, but its still a serious risk for him.

Always when during play such a "Dont move or i shoot" situation comes up, its always a strain upon players. Because they know that in real life, they should take such a threat seriously and they know, that story expects them to do, but they know as well, that their char values say, that those heave crossbow bolts are a nuisance.

So why talk about realism in the rules, when some of the oldest rules (damage and HP) are already highly unrealistic?

Rolemaster had a nifty skill called 'Ambush', I believe, that I snagged and modified for D&D campaigns. Basically, any time someone 'gets the drop on you' and has a knife to your throat, a crossbow pointed at your face, etc, and you weren't 'combat ready', you've been ambushed. The person with the crossbow to your face/knife to your throat can hold you at bay. As soon as you make a move/roll initiative, they can resolve a Coup de Grace against you.

It's certainly not RAW, but it does allow for people to actually *threaten* you with deadly force in those situations, instead of you just saying 'I'll shrug that off!'

I also make a point of letting my players know that Hit Points represent stamina/skill in combat, and less 'death of 1000 cuts'. Getting hit doesn't mean you got hit, it means you are wearing out, more likely to make a mistake later that ends up with a spear through your lung.

Consider this stolen!

I will be adding the ability to break ambush just so players don't over-abuse it, but still, thanks.

Consider this stolen, twice!

Though I would probably allow for an initiative check against each threatening foe to escape the Coup de Grace.


I can see a reasoning for denying this as well, however. The 'pure' wizard would, it seems, spend a vast majority of his time researching magic. As his primary class feature, that is where the focus would lie. With a prestige class, you are branching out into other areas of study, which takes time away from your ability to independently research new applications of magic.

With Sorcs and Bards, magic is innate, not requiring research. Practice, certainly, but not the actual process of digging up 'forgotten' arcane secrets from dusty old tomes. Also, from a mechanical standpoint, spontaneous casters would have NO way of getting new spells if they didn't get them automatically. At least a wizard can always buy a scroll.


If nothing else, APG Page 17 has this line in the Arcane Training substitution feature for Half-Elves:

Quote:


Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class and it must
be an arcane spellcasting class. They can use spell trigger
and spell completion items for their favored class as if 1
level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels
in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented
racial trait.

Since a PC under normal circumstances is always at least 1st level, this would seem to imply that yes, that is allowed.


I usually prefer 4d4+2 myself, but I always leave the option open to my players.


Another aspect to consider is that, depending on character level, most devils have plenty of souls. What makes this one so special? As was stated earlier, the fact that a contract with an agent of evil is even being considered means that the character's sould is probably already lost.

Infernal powers have pretty much any physical object (souls included) that they could ever need. The bargain, IMHO, should be for something more undefinable. I like the idea of a 'favor to be named later', but it almost has too much of a goodfellas feel. More appropriate, I feel, would be to have the character engaged in a long term indentured servitude arrangement. Perhaps something along the lines of:

'...and the receiving party (hereafter referred to as the Agent) shall, on no more than two occasions per lunar cycle, be called upon by the bestowing party (hereafter referred to as the Bestower) to perform a single act that does not violate the ethical or moral tenets of the Agent...'.

In this case, a clever devil understands that the character is neutral (bordering on evil) and twice a month, can be 'called upon' (which may mean a message, a vision, or an outright teleportation effect) to perform something that would not immediately cause an alignment shift. That isn't to say that repeated acts would not cause the shift, only that any one act must not cause it. Perhaps it could be worded better (any ideas on that?), but you get the idea. Additional side effects may include RP/pseudo-RP effects (inquisitor domain changes to an Asmodeus domain, bonuses become Profane bonuses, all animals are 1 step more hostile towards the character, all social interactions are at a -1 penalty, etc...).

Also, remember to be specific on what is promised, but vague as to how it will be implemented (what? you said you wanted immortality, but you never specified that eating the carrion of sentient creatures was off limits. I'm just doing what I was promised, its not my fault you are too weak-willed to take advantage of it)
The recompense should also be something that can be twisted if at all possible. Let the player propose what they seek, but make them do it at the end of the session so that you have time to think on it. Devils don't make hasty decisions, and neither should you. Even the most innocuous request can be perverted and warped into something that the PC regrets. Again, to restate, evil is NOT fair. Evil will do whatever it must in order to justify its actions. Even Phenominal Cosmic Power(tm), like 1/day Wish, can be twisted and corrupted in the most entertaining ways


In my experience, witches seem to do well at most everything out of the box except for direct damage.
Especially nasty is the essentially free 'reach spell' granted by spectral hand. Spectral Hand + Cure Spells = Borderline broken.
The same holds true with a few other nasty touch range spells (Bestow Curse and Poison come to mind). Hexes are fun, and later on are good ways to deal with those pesky magic immune critters.


Looking at the core book, unless there has been errata for it, I see that Plane Shift (Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 7) has a Target of 'Creature Touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands'. So, in a sense, this already exists. It even offers a Will save :)


You can also 'tank' by ensuring that the bad guy pays dearly for every attempt to get by you. Combat reflexes is good, as additional AOOs are always a plus, but don't overlook the value of combat maneuvers. Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are good ways to make sure that the other guy pays attention to you, and not your casters, even when you only get one AOO per round.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

The "lose 2hp/HD" is the same drop as "drop to d8 hit die". Note that undead often have at *least* +2 charisma modifiers, meaning that this isn't really a nerf. In fact, for many undead (sorcerous liches/vampires especially) this is a huge buff. I had a party facing a final *full-mage* boss with nearly 300HP unbuffed at one point because he was a vampire. EDIT: He would have only had ~110 HP in 3.5 rules.

The stat-block you quote would change to (assuming they had old-style toughness for that +3):
Hit Dice: 4d8 + 11 (29)

And more than that, undead using racial hit dice now get medium BAB instead of slow BAB like they did in 3.5. In many cases, this is a considerable improvement.


I would suggest these. They may not be the 10 best for each class, but they are definitely good choices for learning.

Sorcerer/Wizard:


  • Summon Monster I
  • Shield or Mage Armor
  • Protection From ...
  • Charm Person
  • Burning Hands
  • Magic Missile
  • Disguise Self
  • Ray Of Enfeeblement
  • Enlarge Person
  • Feather Fall

Cleric:


  • Bless/Bane
  • Cure/Inflict Light Wounds
  • Detect ...
  • Doom
  • Cause Fear
  • Command
  • Sanctuary
  • Divine Favor
  • Shield Of Faith
  • Protection From ...

Druid:


  • Charm Animals
  • Cure Light Wounds
  • Entangle
  • Obscuring Mist
  • Summon Monster I
  • Endure Elements
  • Produce Flame
  • Faerie Fire
  • Shillelagh
  • Speak With Animals

There is some overlap here, but my opinion is that there should be some overlap to keep the idea that magic is somewhat constant, no matter the source. Of course, as with everything, YMMV


If you're going to go with 3.x material, you may want to give Sand Shaper (Sandstorm: p. 76) a look. You will loose 2 levels of casting, but in return, as a sorcerer, you get 43 extra spells known over 9 levels (and they're themed, too). Some are of questionable usefulness, but it almost doubles your base spells known.