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Oh, I understood. And as I understood, I acknowledge now that all that matters to be powerful is DPR.
Let's see if I understand: he can buy arrows, because it spends gold. He can't recharge a wand, or build it. But he can buy a wand, right?. I guess that means he can buy new arrows for his quiver, but he couldn't build them with Craft: Fletcher. Did that stop to make any sense to you? Because it did to me.In case you didn't note, "transform gold into arrows via a skill check" is exactly what he is doing when he builds a wand. He spends gold, make a skill check (Spellcraft, to be precise), and construct a weapon. Saying the simulacrum can't build wands is just a way to say "oh crap, this spell mess the game system so much that it REALLY should dissapear, but we can't, because we like it for NPCs and stuff". It makes 0 sense than the simulacrum can spend gold to build an Adamantine Great Sword with skill checks and time, but he can't spend gold to build a *cheaper* +1 great sword with checks and time. Zero sense.
So pretty much "powerful" means "dpr"
No its a RAW vs RAI debate. RAW you guys are absolutely correct, but no GM I know would allow it unless you took that elven archetype that allows oracles to cast sor/wiz spells.
That's not even a RAI debate, it's a "I'm angry you got too much power from that combo so Í'd ban it" debate. Forget the Paragon Surge Spell for a moment. Just look at Eldritch Heritage Feat. What DOES that feat DO? If it were intended to be used only by Wizards and sorcerers, it would say so in the description. It does not. Anyone can take them. Even a Barbarian can take them as long as he has CHA 15 and the Skill Focus. RAI, it's intended to give the bloodline power to your character whatever his class is. So yes, if you are a Dwarf summoner, or gnome bard, or halfling oracle, and you spend a couple feats in improved heritage and its feat taxes, you DO gain a spell added to your list of spells knowns. That's EXACTLY the RAI of that feat.
Now let's go with Paragon Surge. It's a spell that gives you a feat. That's exactly the RAI of the spell, as well as it's RAW. Combine the two. It's exactly RAW, and RAI. It's ludicrously powerful RAI, but it's RAI regardless. It's a "should die in a fire of nerfbats"-RAI, but it's RAI.
Recharging a staff don't make them any more powerful than replenishing an empty quiver does. Or accepting the staff, to begin with. Or a old fashioned sharpened sword, too. I'd argue than a simulacrum with a sword is more powerful than a simulacrum without a sword, so with your very very very broad definition of "grow in power", a simulcrum, who is built naked, can't even take weapons or don armor or use items.
Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Yep, the TSS gets an advantage vs Rays. The Stonelord is tougher in regular melee because of DR, has better saves (Because of good will save), several inmunities (like fear, charm, etc) and with the stalwart defender powers, you can get 2 will saves or free AOO or more inmunities. If your greater concern is rays, then the TSS with his Ray Deflection does get an advantage. In any other situation, the stonelord is just much more tanky.
Jacob Saltband wrote:
So how much should a daily Mink Blank cost. One charge daily.
If you are a spontaneus arcane caster, like sorcerer, 8000 gold.
Note that everyone with enough UMD can emulate being a Sorcerer. In my last campaign, our Ninja did so for his Vanishing trick.
Well, if Paizo's intention were to make Large Bastard Swords not available to medium characters, they wouldn't had created an ICONIC character who wields a large bastard sword, wouldn't they?
Well, the fact it's made of gold should also be taken in account. a colossal helmet made of *steel* would weight 300 pounds. A gargantuan helm of gold would weight 300 pounds as well, as gold is considered 50% heavier by PF rules.
Yeah, it's a bit absurd to be unable to buy a masterwork bow for the archer, but spend 7000gp in pistols :P.
Anyway, I agree qith A Man in Black. Some builds get hurt by the lack of magic bonuses much more than other. This is not a test to see which class do more damage, it's a test to pass some certain exam, and that's it. Just like "let's see which class can do more damage under sea" will finish with a lot of guys using harpoons and very little of them using warhammers :P
The Oracle doesn't need to be able to cast wizard spells to add fireball. It need to be able to cast 3rd level spells. You must be able to cast spells of the same level than the wizard spell is, not being able to cast the spell itself.
Orich Starkhart wrote:
I know this is fantasy, but I want a sense of verisimilitude.Then I guess you don't play Pathfinder. Because...
Looking a the Monk at 16th level. That's 7 attacks in the flurry, and fast movement of +50 feet;
This is becoming my favorite example for the verosimilitude debate in Pathfinder, over the fact most martials can drink potion as if it were Coke, or fall from the Eiffel tower with no chance to die:
Said monk has, at 16th level, the ability to trip, grapple and pin a rhinoceros, with no magic item.
CMB=16 Monk level+ 5 str (a 14 starting +2 for human and +4 for leveling) +2 improved trip (free feat) +2 fury's fall feat (with Dex 14) =+25 CMB for trip (Rhino's CMD is 24 for trip). Then ki throw means you make him land in any square adjacent to you, and binding throw means you roll for grapple as free action (which you also get with 2+, even with the -4 of not having two free hands, because you tied one of your hand to your back just to make the things more fun)
So, let's talk again about verosimilitude in pathfinder and monks. Starting by the fact such monk can take a rhino by it's horn, throw it over his shoulder and slam it into the ground, and then make a judo-like inmobilization *with a hand tied to his back*.
Well, yes, as we are talking about Pathfinder, I use the pathfinder definition of magic.
Supernatural effects are magical, but not 'spellcaster magical'. There's tons of extraordinary effects that are magical, and physically impossible, but simply transcend 'PF Magical Energy' that they don't detect as such.
I know a lot of people from diverse religions who would cringe at your statement that God's miracles are, in fact, magic.
Since it is a two handed weapon, you cannot wield a large version of the sword, regardless of EWP, unless you have another feat or power that allows you to do so. All EWP does, on its own, is allow you to use a bastard sword (of your size category) one handed.
Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Don't buy charisma then. Be a paladin with Charisma 5. The Stonelord archetype don't need charisma, has extra natural armor, and damage reduction. With a single dip in unbreakable fighter you could get DR 18 by level 10 I think if you fight defensively/combat expertise.I think giving up part of the touch atack AC is a good trade of for all those inmunities, better saves, etc.
What about archers?
cupido the angel archer:
Aasimar plumekith fighter weapon master 12
So he could be, say, a Paladin, and get Steel Soul and Glory of Old for close the same effect, but better Will Save in the long run, and a bunch of inmunities, and the ability to self-heal (or Stonelord, for crit protection, damage reduction, extra Nat armor, etc).
Using the same array of stats, at just 6th level the Stonelord would get Nat armor +2, which offsets the Tower Shield. He gets DR 3, he gets better Will save, 25% chance to ignore crit or sneak, fear inmunity, an aura for his teammates, can heal himself 3x per day 3d6 as swift action, has a flanking buddy, and gets the stalwart defender ability to use it when he thinks it is useful.
Williamoak: I'll throw that it, I was a little definitive there, I made that section after looking around on the rules forum, although I do believe thoroughly that you can do what I mentioned. The restrictions are as what Gustavo mentions, namely the abilities in question are as the quoted paragraph says. Can you talk, make somatic movements, and access material components?
Elementals do talk, so yes, you can talk. Somatic components are GM decision as we don't have anything that says yes or no. You can't access to material components unless you have a polymorphic pouch
Your qualification of 2h'ing on the character's turn is 'rules abuse' flies in the face of combat for every class and style for 15 years.
This part and...
And a handful of people are going to argue the same points which have been repeatedly shot down, and expect the broad mass that knows better to return it to the way it was?
this part, are put together for comic relief I guess.
If the way to "shot down" the points argued are backed with your 6 second time bubble, well, then your point is incredibly weak. Like "I wanna to spell-combat with 2h weapon" weak.
Let's try with
Stompy Tom, human Barbarian Wild Rager:
1 Power Attack
Beast totem rage powers x3
+6 str in Rage.
Total damage: If I haven't missed anything, 162DPR. Or 486 in 3 rounds.
EDIT: I guess I could get a ton more damage with a mounted barbarian and lance and whatever, but anyways
And if you want to crap all over the Vital Strike chain, then crapping all over the much better CW chain is completely up for grabs, too. It's a feat chain that is much more focused then CW, AND it's a monster standard chain, working excellently for them when PC's try to deny them full attacks. Except, you know, it doesn't work at all against CW.
It's crap, and once CW is nerfed, it's crap too. Being a slighthly better smelling piece of crap doesn't remove it from the crap pool. It's crap, and it'll always be, because of this game fatal flaw about full round actions and movement. The only way Vital Strike isn't crap, is if you rename it "pounce"
And Scribe scroll to fly doesn't kill a T-Rex at all. You still have to either expend a lot of spell slots, shoot a lot of arrows, and you have to be at least level 5 and pay out the coin. It also doesn't keep the T-Rex from getting at the other PC's who are beyond you cheering you on.
Crane Wing haven't defeated the T-Rex either. You still have to kill it, and it doesn't stop him and his gargantuan reach to go against others in the party.
It also makes you the preferred target of archers and casters, but that's a different topic
No no no, this. Exactly this. I like this topic, let's talk about this topic, don't diss it out.
YES, it's not overpowered because it makes you the preferred target of archers and casters. And that's what balance it.
Now... in that sentence, were we talking about fly? Or... Crane wing?
LOLLet's assume for a moment that this is valid, and not an absurd interpretation of the rules (which is the truth).
Then, again, it's not Crane Wing what's wrong. It's the ability to create 6 seconds bubles where you can do your full round and then go back to normal time, which is indeed powerful, not only because of Crane wing, but also because of Aldori swordlords, spellstrike, and other stuff.
What you have said is "hey, look, if we have the portable-hole-into-bag-of-holding nuclear weapon, Crane Wing is really powerful, because a Crane Winger can throw a portable-hole-into-bag-of-holding and provoke a nuclear explosion. So let's nerf Crane Wing".
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
That's why in game you don't make any grappler but tetori monks, because of inescapable grasp
EDIT: also, that's not different thn archers being useless if the target has Fickle Winds
Yep, without magic items some builds are more heavily penalized. With a 12th level WBL, you can pretty much autosucceed in CMB, because there are a lot of stuff that gives you high CMB bonuses for cheap. A single Wayfinder gives +2 for 500g, assuming you bought the Ioun Stone you were going to buy regardless. Gloves of maneuvering give +2 for 4000, armbands of grappler give +1 for 500, you add enhancement bonus, and so on.
In any case, the power of Grappling with a maneuver master or tetori monk is that you can pretty much tie him and then coup de grace.
Nobody argues that Vital strike isn't horrible. Using it as a standard, you'll get a lot of horrible feats. Deflect arrow and Missile Shield also shut down Vital Strike for ranged characters.
Sure, Crane Wing can, with a feat, defeat a Tyrannosaurus, and that sounds powerful. So does Scribe scroll->fly.
The real problem was the MoMS dip, not the Crane Wing
Human Monk (Maneuver Master/qinggong) 12
Relevant class abilities:
CMB 12 +5 (str) + 2 (improved)+ 2 (Greater) +1 (WF) + (conditional 3 (dex)+3 (Wis))
Swift: activate Meditative, move, attempt a trip.
Activate free Grapple through Binding Throw, for +26 Grapple (including prone)
Second maneauver from standard action =Grapple for damage (4d6+10 Non-lethal)
Second round: Activate Arcane Strike as Swift, "flurry" of maneauvers (3 maneuvers at +24/+24/+21 for 4d6+16
Third Roud: Repeat Round 2.
NOTE: Every time the other guy tries to break the grapple, he provokes AOO.
It's around 30d6+111 if everything hits, however, it's hard to make assumptions because it depends on what the other guy does (if he tries to break provokes, if he does break you need to start again, etc)
nate lange wrote:
gustavo- dwarves do have pretty solid stats for druids; i hadn't included any because in mind any dwarf that could would clank around in metal armor... that said, if you want to make some specific suggestions about a dwarven druid (or several) i'd be glad to consider them :)
Well, the full druid-party was just a joke because of the druid's awesomeness.
However, I think druids are nice for dwarves, not only because of the stats. Sure they don't fit with the standard Celtic-Gaul forest-dwelling druid, but there's an archetype about Cave Druids too. Or regular druids with Cave Domain or Mountain domain or Strength domain. Even Menhir Savant fits well. Druids are linked to nature, but nature =/= plants. Dwarves have fluff about conection with the earth itself, and a Dwarf druid which shapeshift into an earth elemental is cool. You have also badgers, wolverines, and bears, all of them quite "dwarvish"
Did the math without a bite he does 249.665 over three rounds. He still needs to spend the first round activating smite evil and the second two rounds doing litany of righteousness. Divine bond is a pretty huge buff, it's a +3 weapon as a standard action. So it actually wins out over full attacking.
But smite evil is swift action. He can smite evil and full attack in the first round. Without the +3 from divine bond, you get a +1 Mwk regardless, so the difference is slightly less than +3/+3
Assuming +23/+14+/+9 for 1d10+33 plus +12 bite for 1d6+19, but 5 rounds instead of 4 (because of the litany effect). Without going into the numbers, my gut feeling says I'd go with the unbuffed. Maybe I'd make the numbers late, gut feelins are often wrong :P
Actually by RAW, when you shapshift into anything that is not an humanoid, your items meld into your new form. This includes your pouch of components.
[...] I got all of the character sheets that will be playing and the setup is; wizard, sorcerer, sorcerer, witch, ranger focused on bows[...] It's a low magic world which they know and the way I see it going is: [...]
How are those two sentence possible at the same time? What do you mean by "low magic world"? If you mean there's little magic items, then your PC will be even more powerful.
I don't know how did they build they caracters. But if they did them right, and they planned together, they are a damn powerful set up, specially against humanoids, if the players are careful and veteran. First few levels will be somewhat hard, but they'll soon start to roflstomp things, specially if the NPC can't keep the pace because of low-magic world.
About being evil, there's a great 3pp AP called Way of the Wicked. It comes with a few solutions against the typical "evil group problems". The most important one: all the players have to sign a devil's contract with some NPC, and that contract has, among other things, a clause that say they can't betray each other, plot against the group, steal each other, etc. While this shouldn't be needed with a mature group, it IS a great deterrant for those who aren't.
A melee-focused druid sound nice for the "tank" spot.
As a bonus, you get 5 animal companion :P
Haven't done the numbers, but going by gut feeling, I think he'll able to dish more damage without activating divine bond. Just smite evil and full-round from the first round.
Depens om the enemy. For animals and monsters (natural attacks) that's so. For enemies with itterative attcks, not really.+4 dodge gives you an edge that can easily bump you into "only httable by 20s".
I tested this in game for the first time this weekend. We were fighting certain ghoul with class levels in rise of runelord. With the +4 applied to the main attack, I was hit only with 20s in the fight. Without it, it was a 16+ for the main attack. So the feat was useful, indeed.
this part is nice and all of that but...
Also-- as a GM with 30+ years of experience, I ALWAYS roll behind a screen. Of course, I'm the kind of GM who doesn't let dice rolls get in the way of a good story. I don't like to kill off a PC who was using sound tactics or trying to pull off something cinematic.
...this part is actually the key. If the GM isn't willing to kill the PC and fudge the rolls behind the screen, it doesn't matter if the party has 20 years experience or not. They are playing with safety net. We are also above 30, with 20 years of experience, and we TPK'd the other day versus Skinsaw. We were under the normal number of players (one couldn't come), so we were 3 vs Skinsaw and 4 ghasts. We failed our saves vs paralisys, and got coup-d'graced, and having experience didn't help that much. When you have to save vs DC 17, and you have +7 at best, it's a coin flip. If it goes tails, you roll a new character
And of course it lets you use a Wand of CLW. My character is just level 5, but with a +10 bonus (5 + 4 (dangerously curious) + 1), his +12 to use his wand of CLW makes it work most of the time. And a a rare wasted charge isn't that bad. Granted it is best of the Cleric can use it, but in a few more levels that will mostly go away
You don't waste charges on a miss.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge. from the PRD
Second best after perception :P
For wizards, there's a better trait, pragmatic activator . Dangerously Curious (or Underlying Principles, which does the same) gives you +4 (+1 trait plus class skill). Swaping CHA for INT might be as much as +10 if you dumped Charisma to 7 and have INT 26.