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You're still taking a -4 to hit on each of your attacks which is of dubious value. I mean it's better than grabbing agile on every weapon but not by that much.


Gulian wrote:

I feel victorious.

Besides, two-handed may do more damage, but this current build is more reliable in its ability to stay alive while doing so, and if you're running a legitimate two-handed build without reach weapons and AoO's in mind, you're probably going for that 18 STR sweet spot, meaning your AC is most likely not 2 less than this build, but a whole lot less than it. Possibly by at least 3 AC if we're looking at full plate two-hander vs breastplate sword'n'board. And that gap's only going to increase as the build starts getting armor training.

Would the Shielded Fighter be an archetype you'd want to take with this, or nah? Or just stay with classic fighter?

Honestly I don't see it. Yes you end up with slightly more AC which is nice but trading killing potential for damage isn't doing anybody else in your party a favor.


MATHIER MATH! But in all seriousness I would be shocked if we got a reply from a dev other than, "This didn't need to be answered."


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
If you want to ignore the rounding rules go ahead just stop rounding everything else instead and accept that you just wanted to make the game a pain in the ass.

There are no rounding rules to ignore in this case, because there is no fractional result involved. The results are 'yes', 'no', 'less than', and 'not less than'.

None of those words need rounding, therefore no rounding rules apply.

You do know that less than and greater than are math functions, yes?

X>Y is expressed as X-Y>0 or in this case X/2>Y => X/2 - Y >0 oh but that math is simple so you ignore that you're doing math and use a "yes" "no" system. Yes but you're determining that using math. If using math you need values if you're using fractional values you must round down unless told otherwise sooooo yeah not seeing it.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Clockstomper wrote:

(... a gm I know (who isn't me) says, if your question begins with "is it metagaming if..", then the answer is ALWAYS YES...)

In general, players shouldn't really be looking through the Bestiary, IMHO. Part of the GM's job is giving you things to be surprised about and have fun figuring out. They've bought Bestiaries to have material that's fun for you to encounter.

If you play a bunch, you'll have encountered a lot of stuff, and part of trying not to metagame is playing your character like you haven't fought that before... so why get ahead of that curve? (hence why GM's invent homebrews or tweak monsters... or buy other material to have neat stat blocks for you to enjoy fighting).

This is all valid, and I agree with it regarding reading large numbers of specific monster entries. But the original question was mostly about the Monster Creation section which is just some generic 'expect this by this level' stuff and not in the same category at all.

Looking at that or a few individual monster entries also doesn't seem like a huge deal. Especially the common ones.

I have to agree here. I mean most experienced players already have a decent idea what is a "good" to hit or AC or Will save by level X. As long as you aren't scouring the bestiary for special abilities and specifics on monsters, I wouldn't call this so much metagaming, as optimizing or build theorizing.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
I'm not saying you're wrong but if I ask you what is larger 2 or the complex value i you still need to evaluate the values realize that something does not exist in the same sphere of math as the other and then your calculation collapses because you're comparing nonsense to a number.

Absolute b#@%+%&s!

What is the value of Pi? Well...it's around 3.14159...but we cannot express the precise value.

According to you, this inability to have a precise figure makes it impossible to say if the integer '3' is smaller or larger than 'Pi'. According to you, if I try, 'then your calculation collapses because you're comparing nonsense to a number'.

The number '3' is less than the value of 'Pi', and we know this for certain even though we don't know the value of Pi for certain.

The number '2.5' is not an imaginary number! The value of 'i' is 'root minus one', and that number isn't on the number line. But '2.5' does exist on the number line, and '2.5' is larger than '2'.

This ability doesn't require you to have a creature with 2.5 HD; it asks if a particular creature's number of HD is fewer than 2.5.

The answer is either 'yes' or 'no'. Which don't need to be rounded.

Except pi isn't nonsense in normal mathematics it is a value a real value. In pathfinder 2.5 is not real it does not exist nothing in the game functions at 2.5 it is as real as "i" is in normal math, just because it exists on a number line outside of the game doesn't mean that it exists in the game. Why do you assume you're allowed to use .5 when nothing else in the game tells you you can? Am I allowed to take .5 levels because nothing tells me I can't? How about .5 skill points again nothing says I can't? Or how about .5 DC's on saves nothing says I round those before people make their saves?

If you want to ignore the rounding rules go ahead just stop rounding everything else instead and accept that you just wanted to make the game a pain in the ass.


You know this assumption that just because you're comparing you don't need to follow the associated math baffles me.

I'm not saying you're wrong but if I ask you what is larger 2 or the complex value i you still need to evaluate the values realize that something does not exist in the same sphere of math as the other and then your calculation collapses because you're comparing nonsense to a number.


@Malachi - Actually your assumption that PF in general doesn't care about using fractional values mid calculation on the basis of Hitpoints is inherently flawed because the chart which informs you how to calculate those average hit points expressly states that you round after multiplication not before which means that would be the case for hitpoints regardless of standard convention which is why using hit points doesn't really prove anything whatsoever.


If you're talking about the average dice rolls section that's intended for GM use in applying an average hp similar to what one would attain from rolling dice and more importantly it explicitly states in that chart to round down after multiplying.


fretgod99 wrote:

Did you miss the bolding?

Besides, you're skipping over the point alluded to in a few other posts that even if rounding is standard practice when establishing a DC for X ability or a bonus to Y skill (because an extra .5 doesn't change the outcome if comparing to an integer), that doesn't mean division = round, which is the point argued.

So again, *shrug*

Uhhhhh establishing DCs is incredibly relevant because it's the equivalent of adding one to the DCs because the person rolling wins on tie so 14.5 if used as a fraction is DC 15 if they can only use integer numbers on their saves.


For a further example of rounding without it ever being stated to do so. "Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5)" ... "Fireball Trap: ... DC 14 Reflex save ..."

Spell level for a fireball is 3, 3x1.5 = 4.5, DC =/= 14.5 clearly rounded down but never told that you should.


Happler wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
If only 25.5 got you more on a knowledge check than 25. :(
It might if the creature in question has a CR of 5.5 and you also don't round that! Which is why I said it's not an issue if you're consistent but if you inconsistently use the rules only to benefit yourself you're just being arbitrary and that is the most unpleasant kind of DM imo.

Okay, how about the trapfinding ability:

Quote:
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
So a level 5 rogue adds 2.5 to their perception skill? Being consistent here. It does not ask for rounding anything.

Indeed they ought to if you were to use that janky opinion on rules. I personally don't believe it's the right one based on the evidence I have seen but I'm not the game devs so I can't tell you for certain.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
If only 25.5 got you more on a knowledge check than 25. :(

It might if the creature in question has a CR of 5.5 and you also don't round that! Which is why I said it's not an issue if you're consistent but if you inconsistently use the rules only to benefit yourself you're just being arbitrary and that is the most unpleasant kind of DM imo.


fretgod99 wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
And what I am asserting is that any event in which you are told to take a fraction is the equivalent of being told to round.

Everybody is aware that this is your assertion. But as I mentioned earlier with another poster, you're begging the question. You're relying on your assertion to be true, then demonstrating why that assertion dictates that your position on rounding is uniformly correct. But you never actually go back and support your assertion. There is nothing in the rules that actually supports the position that division mandates rounding.

To be fair, there is nothing explicitly in the rules that says division does not mandate rounding. Hence the disagreement.

You're not going to find your support in the rules on the page. It's not there. Certainly the PDT could come out and say the presumption is division = rounding for the sake of uniformity. If so, we'd have a definitive answer. But as of yet, there's nothing of that effect in existence, so far as I am aware. So until then, I'm not going to eschew my experience with real world math simply because one line in the CRB might support it when divorced from context.

You're right but you're not going to find your rules support on the page either.

In fact looking through the rules on dealing damage it never explicitly states that you should be dealing rounded down damage when using two hands on a weapon but the stat blocks and examples provided throughout the rest of the game do so.

I'm making my assertion based on the fact that the rest of the game rules already in use only make sense if you assume that my assertion is true. Otherwise we should all be calculating half damages on spells and weapons, half hit points, half experience monsters for half levels, half squares for reach weapons, half squares for range increments etc.

The game never tells you to do any of that not even circuitously like my supposed "ah-ha" sentence does.

When in doubt use the least nonsensical answer if they release a FAQ that says otherwise then sure I'll play it that way but until they do so the way I've suggested simply makes more sense.


BigDTBone wrote:


Umm, no. Just because you create a new sentence doesn't mean that qualifier is lost. You don't have to re-qualify every subject and predicate in every sentence you write.

The qualifier isn't lost however you can't assume that everything in the same paragraph is qualified. If it were to be you should explicitly refer to the qualifier in a qualified statement. For example, if rounding half of 7, the answer is 3. Would be a better wording in the event that they wanted it to be qualified. And what I am asserting is that any event in which you are told to take a fraction is the equivalent of being told to round.

@Fretgod99 - Also the fact that they FAQ'd the post in which you commented earlier and the FAQ explicitly changed the language of the feat from +1/2xdmg to use 2x for Dragon Style implies there is a functional difference which means you would have to round, but the rules don't say that, it's implied within the game system.


fretgod99 wrote:


PRD wrote:
Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down.
PRD wrote:
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

Note that both of these lines indicate that the rounding occurs when you are directed to round a number, and not necessarily as a matter of course simply because you're dividing.

Is there somewhere else in the official document that this line you're citing appears?

Actually that's not true.

Due to the independence of the statements in the Rounding: section as noted by the use of periods each of those statements are separate "Occasionally the rules ask you to round ..." "Unless otherwise stated, always round down." and "For example, if you are asked to, 'Take half of 7, the result would be 3.'" are all independent of one another if they weren't the structure of the sentence would be different.

Which is why the rule is clear that taking half of something or dividing in general is an example of being told to round. As I noted nothing in the fireball, spell, or saves entries tells you to round damage and yet examples of damage dealt by spells clearly indicates you were meant to round. Why? Because it told you divide the damage.


noretoc wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Well of course, I mean despite the fact that Pathfinder says that you round in general,
It doesn't. Where does it say that? That line you quoted is under the heading "rounding fractions". Why would you think it applies when you aren't told to round fractions?

Because the example provided explicitly doesn't tell you to round and one very common occurrence where we know we are expected to round also doesn't tell you to round however uses the same wording?


Nefreet wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Because the rules say you round

You're ignoring the other side of the argument, though.

One rule says when you round, round down.

The other rule says when asked to round, you round down.

When determining Knowledge DCs, and regaining grit, you are not asked to round.

So, going by your rule, you would be correct.

Going by the other rule, you would be incorrect.

And so this debate can never be settled, without new or further information.

And yet when providing the example for when you are being asked to round the rule states "For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3." This is an example of being asked to round as far as the game is concerned.

The supporting evidence is clear that in the event of damage and the like you are expected to round and it does not explicitly say that any where in the book in fact the vast vast majority of things in the game do not explicitly tell you to round and the ones which do are usually exceptions stating either a minimum value or rounding up rather than down.

Which supports the fact that being told to take a fraction at any point is an example of being told to round.

You can choose to ignore the fairly obvious intent of the rules and do it your own way it's called houserules and there's nothing wrong with it if you're consistent but it's stupid and a headache and as noted most things in the game don't explicitly tell you to round.


Dave Justus wrote:

Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value.

That is the key in my opinion. Whenever you have to apply a bonus, or something similar, we have to have an integer.

In this case, there isn't any need to do that. The rules aren't asking us to get a value and apply it somewhere, the rules are asking us to make a numeric comparison, one which most elementary school students can make easily, even if one of the numbers we are comparing has a fraction in it.

If you aren't getting a number to apply somewhere, the rules don't ask us to round.

It never says that though. And as noted in the example in that very same block of text if it asks you to take half of a value it is telling you to round. The wording makes it pretty damn clear.


Prince Yyrkoon wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
kinevon wrote:

And, the way you people are arguing, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a first level Swashbuckler to recover panache, since there is no minimum 1 addenda.

So, would you rather round down, and screw the first level Swashbuckler, or take the fraction? Your choice.
This doesn't make sense.

It does, and his point is relevant.

If 5/2 = 2, then 1/2 = 0.

So, a 1st level Swashbuckler, which needs to kill a 1/2 CR creature, could never regain grit, as that 1/2 would round down to 0, if we use your analogy that 2.5 rounds down to 2.

Hit Dice not CR people. The ability is based on Hit Dice.

There are no 1/2 HD creatures in Pathfinder.

It's also worth noting that that point is also idiotic because the grit entry states that it can't be any "less" than a 1/2 HD creature since there are no 1/2 HD creature and you would round 1/2 HD to 0 anything with a higher hit dice than zero(aka everything) is a valid target to regain grit from.


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BigDTBone wrote:

The game is already stacked in favor of the PC's, not adding round rules that don't exist doesn't make you a dick GM.

You have to make the check, the DC is 10.125. You rolled a 10? You fail. You roll an 11? You succeed. There is no rounding there.

Riiiiight. Sorry I must have missed the part where the PC's have arbitrary control of the entire universe and everything therein. Also as noted in the rounding section it doesn't matter if it asks you directly to round the value "For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3." The example clearly indicates that asking you to take half of something is equivalent to asking you to round.

Additionally @Toz It actually matters 2 halves equal one damage and -.5 hp is unconscious and dying while 0 is disabled and a potential threat.

Also worth noting that nothing in the saves section explicitly states that you are expected to round down damage on a save however the examples provided in other sections clearly indicate that is the case which further supports the idea that being asked to take a fraction is equivalent to being told to round and that unless told otherwise you round down.


Nefreet wrote:

I've always ruled that, to identify a creature, you need 5/10/15+CR.

In the case of a goblin, a common, low-CR creature, that means a DC of 6.

5 (for being common) plus 1.

Even if the creature being identified is a CR 1/8, fractionally that's .125, and 5 < 5.125

Since the dice can only come up either 5 or 6, and nowhere in between, and 5 doesn't meet the DC, then 6 would be the next logical number.

I'm not going to round down its CR for Knowledge checks in the same way I won't round down for regaining Grit.

So I can round up my damage dice for half damage in your games right after all 16.5>16 that just makes sense.

Honestly I don't get what all the hub bub is about whenever you take a fraction you round and you always round down that's pretty much been PF's standard protocol if you want to always round up that's fine too but if you choose to only round up when it benefits you as the GM and force the players to always round down to their detriment it's more like you're just being an a~%$$@~.

As far as running half your level as a hard value, fine but from now on as GM you're obligated to roll on a chart determining the starting XP of every monster after all it just doesn't make sense that every monster starts exactly at a given level and it's only fair that you represent that and keep track of it for every single kobold out of that band of 30 because you made it relevant now.


Davor wrote:
Dual Wielding Large, Spiked, Bashing Heavy Shields with Shield Master?

A reason to fix Shield Master not a reason to ban this feat also you can't wear improperly sized armor so you lose the armor bonus from the shield which makes it pretty darn mediocre.


Well it's not actually that great in my opinion.

The -2 penalty to hit is a 10% damage reduction essentially, and the size increase on a weapon goes up by roughly 1.5 to 2 damage per die increased 1d4=2.5dmg 1d6=3.5dmg 1d8=4.5 1d10=5.5 2d6=7.

So lets say this lets you go from 1d10 to 2d8 you go from 5.5dmg to 9 dmg average. If you go from 2d6 to 3d6 you go from 7dmg to 10.5. That means in both cases you traded -2 to hit for 3.5 damage, based on power attack scaling that is sub par and most people only opt for power attack when they're getting -1 to hit for every +3 to damage. The value only decreases as your base damage increases since you can't do damage if you never hit.

Overall I'd say it's a neat feat meant for silly character ideas who don't want to take levels in Barbarian, but in terms of balance there is no pressing need to disallow the feat.


boring7 wrote:
Soft touch folks, 3rd party isn't automatic disqualification, it just has to pass an extra drug test.

For some tables yes for others no. If we knew that the players DM had okay'd the 3PP feats and ruled for him in the shady rules area of flanking attacks at range it would be fine albeit still not really Ew worthy just pretty good.


Snickersnack wrote:
So.. can I declare victory now? :P

If you weren't using a 3PP as proof for your pathfinder rules then maybe? Oh wait.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Pummeling charge only works on unarmed strikes.

Also, no pre reqs outside of BaB is kind of dumb, Steel Soul wont do anything for you since you don't have Hardy. Also, improved second chance doesn't do anything because you don't have second chance.

Marroar Gellantara wrote:
(assume feats integrate previous feat effects when needed)

Hardy still isn't a feat. And lets compare that to an average 20th level caster for a baseline?


No. Only your effective caster level is modified.


Because I played an Iksar in EQ and want to live out the glory days. Because I had a lizardman army in Warhammer and I need an excuse to use some of the models I have laying around gathering dust. Because everyone wants to be a dragon and lizardmen are a good base for a half dragon or cursed dragon character. Those are the ones that pop to mind first for me.


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Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Arnwolf wrote:
Personally I see multiclassing as just ways to min/max, has nothing to do with RP or character development. You should be able to build whatever you like with Class, Skills, and Feats.

You know, I was going to do a rather long post pertaining to this... But I just gotta ask....

What?

Seriously. Before I even begin to attempt a reply, I'd like a bit more explanation here. I can't even conceptualize how "Multi-classing has nothing to do with RP or character development"....

I'm going to have to agree with this one, yes my current character could maybe have been done using a single classed character frankly he might have been stronger(mechanically) if I'd done it that way but multiclassing is almost always the most effective way to fulfill a weird RP idea that you have if the game doesn't have a hybrid class that does it for you.

For example until the Magus was released the only way to make a magic swordsman was by taking two classes and then bumping into a prestige class to do it. Even now ideas like a bloodthirsty viking cleric of a war god might be played by mixing Barbarian with Cleric. Powergaming particularly in Pathfinder is usually not benefited by multiclassing and you straight up can't do what you like with feats and skills in a single class a lot of the time. Particularly because for some classes you just don't have skills or feats to spare. I have to just agree with "What?" because that just doesn't make sense.


The main reasons not to multiclass are pretty obvious.

If you're a caster, don't multiclass and lose caster levels.

If you're a specialized martial dependent on a scaling class feature like Barbarians, Monks, any sort of combat maneuver build etc. Multiclassing weakens you in general unless it's done as a dip into just the right class at the right time.

Some people find multiclassing to be an issue because you suddenly acquire skills. And to be frank that's a fair issue to have but the reason it's even an issue is because people are overpacing their campaigns. Not in terms of player time because obviously we don't all want to sit around and role play 6 months of downtime in depth. But the fact is at least at my gaming table we have pretty much no downtime built in. We've leveled 3 or 4 times and we've known each other for about a week and a half. It's up to your DM to manage this properly so that progression feels natural and while it's easier to look at a character go from almost an apprentice to an Archmage in the span of maybe 6 months in game time and just think oh well he was always just casting spells, that's not any more realistic than a Rogue who randomly picks up spellcasting one day.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:

.

Orfamay, there are no rules backing up your views on the restrictions of low int.
There are also no rules backing up your views that a d20 should have numbers lower than 20 written on it. I'm sure you'll consider it a tremendous improvement in your game when I literally never miss a roll again -- and I'm sure the rest of your group will as well.
What the hell are you talking about?

The rules for d20s simply say that a d20 has twenty sides.

They do not specify the numbers to be written on the sides, or that the numbers be different. There is no rule to back up what I assume to be your view that I can't write a '20' on every side of an icosahedron and use it as a d20.

Do the rules say anything about your players not beating you unconscious with their hard back rulebooks and finding a DM who isn't a t+%~?


Orfamay Quest wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Refusing an RP straight-jacket is not cheating.

Nor, according to the rules as written, is taking an icosahedron, writing a '20' on every side of it, and using it as a 20-sided die.

Nevertheless, we would not be sitting at the same table if you tried that. Nor if you played a character with a 4 Int stat as having average or better intelligence.

To be fair we wouldn't be sitting at the same table once you said "You're just going to have to play with that 4 that you rolled." That is pretty much a cue from a bad DM that I should flip the table toss a grenade over it and run.


Zhayne wrote:
gnomersy wrote:


Except you're wrong. Low intelligence is perfectly defined.

The entire paragraph following this is purely subjective and uses nothing but comparatives. it is very, very FAR from 'perfectly defined'.

I'll say it again.

Precise benchmarks for what each intelligence score can do that the one below it cannot. Not 'less likely', not 'more difficult', not 'might', but CANNOT. That is what 'perfectly defined' means.

Strength is perfectly defined. See that chart of carrying capacity? Str X cannot carry as much weight as Str X+1. Unless you can provide a chart with cold, hard, statistical data like that for INT, you got nothin'.

Intelligence is inherently subjective look up the theory of multiple intelligence's and read about how imprecise the use of IQ is to measure intelligence. When you find a way to provide a cold hard statistical chart for human intelligence come back, until then, "you got nothin'"


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Artanthos wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
So if you're saying a character must make a DC 10 int check or whatever to "make a judgement call" if he's dumping int, expect to have to make a DC 10 strength check just to move without a walker if you're dumping strength in my game.

How much weight you can carry is explicitly defined under RAW.

Low intelligence is not so well defined, which is why people are so eager to dump the stat. When sitting at the table, they are free to ignore their characters intelligence and can continue to come up with complex ideas and plans.

Except you're wrong. Low intelligence is perfectly defined.

A person with low intelligent has less breadth and depth of training in many skills, he or she is inherently more forgetful and has trouble recalling things that they may have read (takes a penalty to Knowledge skills), is more gullible or easily fooled as to the real value of an object(penalty to Appraise skill), lacks understanding of the craft of spell casting and how it is codified(takes a penalty on spellcraft), has a more difficult time planning and creating things (takes a penalty on craft skills), such a person is less eloquent and has more difficulty learning languages they weren't born into as well as having a harder time deciphering codes or ancient tomes (takes a penalty on linguistics).

Sounds like an awful lot of definition for the consequences of having a low Int score. Now just because you or your gaming group are too lazy to use or allow the use of those skills for anything of relevance doesn't mean they don't exist and don't accurately convey the penalty for having a bad score on their own.

That's like saying that because you ignore the weight capacity rules that Str scores aren't accurately covered and so from now on your character rolls DC10 Str checks to not collapse helplessly anytime he engages in physical activity.


Soul wrote:

not that i can think of off the top of my head, although if you're running with a reach weapon i could see some fun times in your future.

i think there was a ruling recently that as long as you started from concealment and ended in concealment any movement you take can benefit from stealth (someone back me up on this...?) and with spring attack and fast stealth that would allow you to get WELL within 15 feet (charge 10 feet, lunge with a spear, sneak attack, then retreat up to what... 50 feet? im probably missing some rule that makes that not work though. that would be awesome, so it must be illegal.

4th ed rules for the start and end in concealment stealth thing iirc.


Ravingdork wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
...making him spend hours going through pdfs, books, faqs, etc to audit your characters might just not be worth the time for him and that's fair imo.
Who would be so cruel as to make him hunt for things you've already found? Bring him the material yourself. No searching needed since you've already done it for him. All he has to do is glance it over and say whether or not it looks acceptable and why. Takes 10 minutes per character tops (and often FAR less).

With a new DM I'd say he'd hunt them down because he doesn't know if you're cheating or just wrong about the rules so he'd want to check them all.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Just tell your GM it's not a super death machine. If he's not willing to even audit your character, he's probably not that great a GM to begin with.

To be fair the DM is probably already putting in more time than the player into the game setup and the DM in question probably has a life outside of the game, making him spend hours going through pdfs, books, faqs, etc to audit your characters might just not be worth the time for him and that's fair imo.

Best bet is bribe the DM, give him some pizza or something to compensate him for his time and make him feel less bad about it. Also go through your stuff and note every book and page number which you take something from and when necessary provide him with the books in question if he doesn't have them on hand.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


If you want that done to your friend's (or even your own) body, fine, but many people would see it as a sign of disrespect to the person (or memory of that person), and just as well, the party thinks "Well, nothing happened before when we did this, why would this be any different now?"

@ Kwauss: It's not like Necromancers (or any wizard for that matter) don't delve in Divination magics. It's a common thing for all wizards who are BBEGs to invest in; Scrying, Clairvoyance, etc. is all important for you to make sure your lair is doing exactly what it should be doing.

To adventurers who take spells like Mending or Make Whole or what have you, those tactics would only serve as minor setbacks. To truly get the monkey on your back, you simply try and get him onto another subject's back; in this...

Uhhh and a lot of people wouldn't (cremation) and that's ignoring the fact that it's eminently practical in the universe.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Kwauss wrote:
I bet they notice if they don't have to carry the fighter because he/she's walking around. It would be devilish, almost to the point of metagamey, for the necromancer to animate the fighter and tell him to lie still. Very funny if you can justify it, though.
Hardly Metagaming. If the Necromancer is aware of this party, sees they went off to get something and come right back once before, sees them do the same exact thing again, and wants to keep them out, he'd simply do just that; even better, have the Undead rise up and attack his party members when the cleric finishes casting the spell. The best part? He just now most likely pushed blame at the one doing the resurrection, being convicted of blasphemy in the name of magic and all that is holy, perhaps even linked to the stupid Necromancer in the first place, and it will either be killed unjustly, chased out (along with the party), and simply serve as removing the one thing keeping those goobers from actually being alive in there.

If they're paying for true resurrection there is no reason not to destroy the body before hand so why aren't the priests doing that?


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Domestichauscat wrote:

Dm says: This merchant has every magic item in the game. But he is an ancient golden dragon. I designed him so that if you manage to kill him, you deserve all the stuff he has.

Dm means: Had to make a way so that you couldn't easily steal everything in a magic shop of magicness. If you want to, good freaking luck.

I don't know I'd opt for,

DM says: Are you sure you want to try to steal from this well established magical item shop?

DM means: I'm going to have all your characters get stabbed to death by the roving death squads they hire to keep this king's ransom of magical goods safe if you do this, just try me.


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ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

...(unless you're Ravingdork, who makes interesting concepts that are very effective).

I'm in LA for the summer and have friends who game in LA, so I'm hoping to run The Emerald Spire assuming schedules and interest line up. I'm assuming some people may want to play ACG classes, and some may want to play quirky concepts (dire bat riding halfling cavalier comes to mind). Say for example that there might be a shaman or druid, and someone plays an early-entry mystic theurge so the group has cleric spells. Assume wizard 2/cleric 1/mt X. The mystic theurge will be pretty underpowered until level 6 or 7, a high point buy makes it more workable. Or if a player wants to play a prestige class that is primarily an NPC prestige class- those have great flavor but are generally weaker than base classes.

No offense meant to Ravingdork I like a lot of his character concepts but I've definitely seen characters of his which I felt would not survive the climb to the level where they come into their own as well.

But yeah I can attest that with a higher point buy I'm more liable to play something that is either more MAD, more thematic, or more quirky. I was considering making a twf build that passes it's own crits to itself to use with a big multiplier weapon that I would never have bothered with if our PB wasn't so high. And I did infact go into Noble Scion which definitely would not have happened if I didn't know that the rest of our party wasn't optimizing and if our DM hadn't given us rather ungodly stats.

I think an array is better for this kind of thing than point buy though because it means that while you might have a crazy high PB equivalent you might force SAD classes to be a little more rounded whether they like it or not and it gives MAD classes more bang for their buck than PB might. But other methods work too.


Kwauss wrote:

It's true that it was a fundamental mistake to use so many weakly protected abilities to create the rogue's niche. But people would still be reliant on rogue levels if content hadn't crept for at least some of them.

The concept of 'rogue levels' should have been given as much importance as 'caster level' for things within their niche. Just as they should have protected the concept of 'fighter levels' as something special, rather than just giving away of their unique gifts to everyone and their brother.

If levels in Rogue were worth taking you'd see people taking them anyways like with fighter levels and all of their primary features having been passed around to other classes.

Note things like Magus, EK, Sohei, I think a Barbarian archetype etc all get access to "fighter levels" or things like Weapon Training and Armor Training.

I don't even think the fighter is that good but it's certainly more worth a dip than the Rogue is.

Frankly the real issue with the Rogue is that their only combat ability is situational and mediocre and conflicts with the lack of accuracy on the rest of their kit, and that Rogue Talents, unlike any other classes Feat equivalents, are pretty much universally worse than just having extra feats.


If you want to use an old EQ 1 example it's worth noting that often you had Wizards, Mages, Necros, Shadow Knights, Monks, Enchanters, and other classes infringing on their role as a scout and often those classes were valued more highly than the Rogue because of party dynamics(needed a tank, needed burst DPS, needed a puller, etc.)

And on top of that, that in EQ 1 Rogues were among the highest DPS classes in the game when they had good weapons on their hands, additionally EQ had an agro system which allowed "Tanks" to actually exist while they don't in Pathfinder and as such each Rogue can get pounded into a fine paste by an angry monster in each fight.

This isn't a solution to the Rogue's problems in Pathfinder, no offense. And they aren't unusually good at doing the other roles you specified, they have the same bonuses everyone does unless they are built to optimize for it in which case they have absolutely no value in combat unlike many other classes who can benefit from specializing towards that both in combat and out of it.


Deylinarr wrote:
Sushewakka wrote:
Lemme guess: Someone's playing an Inquisitor.
Which brings us to the next question......how can an inquisitor get MORE swift actions???

AFAIK he can't. The game doesn't support downgrading moves or standards into swifts so that isn't an option ... I suppose if he could get access to timestop somehow he'd have a couple bonus rounds to use swifts in but overall it's not an option unless I missed something.


A - E ) Yes you can always do your actions in any order you choose and you possess 1 swift one move and one standard per round a 5 ft step is a non action which is exclusive of other movement that round, and a full attack takes one move and one standard action, hence any combination of those is valid.

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round." (d20pfsrd.com)

You can also 5 ft step during your full attack should you choose if say you kill the enemy next to you and want to resolve the rest on a nearby enemy.

F) Probably? "A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."

G) Only one swift or Immediate they are called out in the core rules as being the same thing only the Immediate can be done outside of your turn and takes up your next round's swift action.

H) If they used another swift already or an immediate in the previous round. Or surprise rounds/ other times you lose actions.


I'm going to toss in my 2 cents I suppose.

For what it's worth I don't hate the idea of a healer in MMOs or videogames where a healer converts easily restored mana into HP at a far greater rate than it is dealt as damage and when often times you are controlling more than one character(at least for JRPGs or RPGs like Baldur's Gate etc.)

That being said, in said games a healer does outpace the damage dealt, and more importantly, post healing you generally need only to pop some potions or sit around for a minute to fully recover your spell pool. In this game you need to pull over the entire party for a solid 8 hours to recover your ability to heal and as such spam healing like in those games becomes a much less valuable thing.

In contrast I do really think spot/emergency healing is valuable depending on the circumstances and I think having a refill wand of CLW to top off post battle is important as well. But I am generally highly skeptical of someone who wants to go in right off the bat as a "Healer" or even worse if they say they want to play a "Pacifist" character because if you make the healing your primary role and don't pay attention to the other things a divine caster can do you are just shooting yourself in the foot and making things unnecessarily hard on yourself and your party.

TLDR: Having the ability to heal is great, focusing solely on healing is bad, and when you say you want to play a healer it's important to make sure everyone understands which of those you mean.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

@gnomersy:

All the things you list can do Rogue stuff...but none except Bard (and Ninja, I guess) are actually very good at social stuff specifically. Which was the point of the OP's request.

Hence my just listing Bard.

Fair I was actually just pointing out people who can do Rogue stuff and are superior at combat while being roughly equivalent at social stuff because they have the same amount of focus on Cha(roughly none). I'll admit I tend to focus on combat effectiveness since my DM is relatively unlikely to call for rolls on skills(he prefers us just acting it out) but the OP did ask for someone who could hold his own in combat as well.

So yeah Bard is choice number one I agree but I think the ones I listed are half steps towards the character intended if the OP doesn't like Bard for whatever reason.


If the rest of your party is playing anything of moderate levels of optimization or higher the Rogue is a bad choice if they aren't your DM can rebalance encounters down to make up for it.

Bard would be a superior choice almost always. Other options that I'd consider are Ninja(just a better Rogue if you don't need trapfinding and depending on your GMs policy on campaign traits you could trade one of those for it). I hear alchemists can do a Rogues job pretty well with the right archtype.

Trapper and Urban Rangers both can do what you want pretty well. Urban is stronger imo but Trapper is a better 1 level dip if you want a different class afterwards.

If you don't need trapfinding at all you could probably get there with a Lorewarden Fighter which also is one of the best choices to pull off combat maneuvers and if you're human you get a decent number of skill points to do what you want. If needed you could take the one level dip in Rogue or Trapper Ranger before swapping to this to round out your skills a bit but it's not really a great investment of a level compared to just speeding up progression as a Lorewarden.


Bandw2 wrote:
gnomersy wrote:

Sure you can, of course now the air is your foe, and as such you cannot move through it's square. And since there is no listed CMD for Air due to GM prerogative it now has a CMD of 99.

And since you can't occupy the same square as an enemy the air moves out of your square on it's turn, and you suffocate to death without being able to move. Congratulations on that Great Cleave though. Worth?

air has a CMD of 10 at best, it has no strength or dexterity... or anything, it's not even got hp so no matter how easily it is to hit it i can't kill it either...

edit: actually what if your had a burrow speed?

Show me where it says that in the rules? If you can't find it then the air has whatever CMD the DM decides it has. Likewise with burrow you would never be able to surface and therefore suffocate to death.

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