Been considering it. I really figured feats weren't so much a problem, as I can take combat feats with rouge talents. Though, I could take Fighter at first level, for the bonus feat, and go Rouge from there?
Well it's not necessarily a critical factor although iirc the feats for talents thing is only a one shot talent(technically 2 if your cheese it to pick it off the ninja trick list as well) but fighter brings some plusses and some minuses. Minuses decreased sneak attack dice on a knife master this could be important and decreased skill points are the primary downsides. On the upside you get feats equal BAB better/equal hp depending on where your fav. class bonus was going and if you went Weapon Master for 3 levels access to weapon training and thus gloves of dueling which is a pretty huge bonus.
Possibly Armor expert trait so you can go with Mithral Breastplate as you level up if you intend to stick with strength over pure finesse since free AC is always good.
Frankly weapon finesse is a waste of a feat with stats like yours. You can't go wrong with weapon focus for daggers particularly if you intend to TWF with them since it will help offset your to hit penalty it would also work for throwing them which makes it almost as good as point blank shot in a pinch although doesn't satisfy further feat pre reqs.
You'll also need quick draw if you intend to throw daggers regularly as you level.
It is worth noting that going into TWF does give you the best ability to guarantee your own sneak attacks once you get the buffed version of two weapon feint or whatever it is so that isn't the worst choice around you'd be hard pressed to get high enough dex stats for greater TWF without invesment but honestly at a -12 to hit on top of a rogue's 3/4 BAB that one was pretty much never going to hit anyways.
Honestly what you want to do seems somewhat feat heavy would you be willing to dip fighter?
Assuming STR 24 for a +7 which is pretty much the finite maximum at level 1 while raging. With power attack he's doing 1d12+13 for about 18 damage a round and that's about as cheesily optimized as you can get without outright cheating even as a DM and it still won't kill a player with a d8 hit die and a Con above 10 or a d6 and con 14 so yeah unconscious but no kills on average. Think it through.
Alternatively you could say that he's been hoarding scraps and bits of magical scrolls and artifacts trying to pore over them at night and learn how to cast magical spells in conjunction with his swordplay.
As for the druid technically he doesn't have to be beholden to a god to be an oracle. He simply receives power from one perhaps a nature god saw his work and wished to grant him unusual power or it could be supplied by a darker god of destruction hoping the fool will use his power unwisely and surrender his druidic ways.
James Risner wrote:
Either it is a heavy shield or it cannot be used for any purpose like it were a heavy shield in which case ignore shield focus ignore shield bashing because it isn't a shield ignore weapon focus shields and any other such feats and abilities.
It is in fact very clear that it is used as though it were a heavy shield it then gives you several specific exceptions to the general case of a heavy shield because it's magic, but if you want to ignore the rules you can do so.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Yes of course let us break the hands of all of our players then by learning to roll dice and do bookkeeping using their feet and mouths they will find true satisfaction.
I know this is silly but I'm just pointing it out to say that the opposite is also true just because something is hard for your players doesn't mean it will make the game meaningful or enjoyable.
I'm playing that dumpstatted Cha 5 dwarf and I'm still not sure I think the class is fine.
Clearly you forgot that any time the enemy sunders your gear they can sunder your body into two separate parts instead if they choose to. Aka the DM in question is god awful and any time you look at him rocks fall and everyone dies.
It looks good however I have some serious concerns about it being effective so long as it is saddled with the Amulet of Mighty Fists as it's only method to get it's class features and scaling enhancement bonuses. Either needs some kind of errata on the AoMF allowing scaling beyond +5 like every other weapon and making it cheaper since it's already a slot investment that no other fighting type makes or some kind of item option like the pre errata'd Brass Knuckles.
Except Mike has spent all of three and a half seconds in the camera he hasn't had time being played for his father's axe to have any significance and when it's destroyed his brother phil can step out of the ether with an identical copy of his father's axe because you decided so. For that matter as the DM you can decide that Mike actually had an extra axe from his father just sitting in his bag if you want players can't.
It's like saying there is no functional difference between losing a leg for a pro runner and a man who has already permanently lost the ability to use his legs, yeah it sucks for both of them but one of them loses an awful lot more if it happens than the other. Also I'm aware of how borderline offensive this statement could be and want to say ahead of time I'm sorry if this offends anyone it wasn't my intent and I hope you can respect the logic behind the statement.
Fair, but even assuming a +5 and x4 crit weapon that crit only added 20 damage onto the top from a +5 upgrade now maybe it helped him land the hits but cocky players and bad luck caused that not disarm vs sunder. Now maybe that +5 was the difference between a crit confirm or not but more likely than not it wasn't a +5 weapon compared to a non MW one on a BBEG henchman and more likely than not it didn't have a x4 crit range, they ran into some bad luck it happens it can happen with or without the fighter's sword that's how random rolling works sometimes you 1 hit ko the dragon and sometimes you get gutted by the minion and they go free.
But as I mentioned earlier players suffer more from lost items than a DM does since he has the ability to infinitely add or remove them from play for that matter he can give his characters and monsters whatever stats he wants it's pretty much the case that a DM can choose to make sunder do nothing to him any time he so desires. A player? A player has to live with having his gear sundered if the DM plays it that way.
Now that being said if your players use sunder all the damn time well fair is fair I can see that. Or used in moderation as a particular plot thing or an unusually hard event that makes the players wonder if they can actually beat the BBEG it's alright too but if you make it common it's much more punishing to the player than to you so yeah it's bad form.
If your entire back line got roflstomped by one BBEG minion it's probably not thanks to the weapon but thanks to them being s*&& at dealing with getting hit at all and making zero plans to avoid it, unless you made up an epic level item that doesn't coincide at all with the magic item rules, if it wasn't the +x weapon of shiny Y it would have been them getting stabbed to death by the +(X-a) weapon of mediocre W.
Let's assume you keep an item of +2 lower enhancement bonus than your current one on hand at all times. If the DM destroys your primary weapon he has immediately given you a long lasting 10% reduction to your damage coupled with an inability to get through at least one type of DR. This is huge and that's with a back up weapon of exactly the same type as the one you normally use.
If you are a weapon type specialist(say a whip master) and you never picked up a spare whip because your DM doesn't drop them and you had to special order the one you have in the city you left a week of travel ago. You may have dropped up to 4 to hit which is a 20% reduction to your damage to use a MW version of the item or switch items and go down by +2 for a 10% reduction and the loss of several of your feats like weapon focus weapon spec assorted weapon specific feats or pretty much lost your ability to use the combat maneuvers you relied on that is the worst case scenario.
This is why it's considered bad form to use on pcs because it is always a big deal for the players. On the other hand it means relatively little to the GM's npcs since they are either dead or non entities whenever the DM decides and can always magically come back with whatever he pleases pulled out of the ether.
Until you realize that a Vorpal sword requires a CL of 30 to repair and therefore you have a 0% chance of fixing it when destroyed in 95% of games.
Items CL is 3x the enhance so a +5 item has CL 15 you need double the items CL to fix it so you need CL 30 on that scroll since that is impossible under normal circumstances(excluding epic level rules) you will never fix that item. Likewise with a +4 item sitting at a CL 24 for your "easy to find" scroll.
As for the reality or surreality of the matter if we're looking at it objectively a bow is at worst 1 feat of investment for someone who doesn't have it to get Martial Weapon Proficiency in it. Assuming that is true it should be roughly 1 feat to make a crossbow equivalent should you pursue that path. And there is no reason that a composite bow gets strength bonuses and a crossbow can't it pretty much makes crossbows objectively worse even assuming you don't have the proficiency as long as you have a strength of 12 or higher.
Now I'm not opposed to having the light crossbow be a crappy little hunting crossbow with no strength mod or penalty but there is no real reason that a bow gets a strength mod and a crossbow wouldn't it's simple physics that the stored potential energy in the crossbow assuming it required more strength to crank would be identical to stored potential energy because you're holding the bowstring back.
Only because you assume it to be. If you consider a 5ft step to be some light shuffling/circling while staying in your "combat ready" stance while you consider movement to be something along the lines of a light jog it makes perfect sense that a 5ft step lets you make all your attacks and avoid attacks of opportunity while the jog makes it very difficult to do the same sort of thing even if you were to travel the same distance.
I agree with this although I do think some of the ruling could have benefited from more time spent thinking it over like that free action debacle.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Nonsense you're applying the hard grid based idea of tactical combat to the abstract sense of human movement, as pointed out earlier every square is 5x5 which means you could have moved .1ft or 9.9 ft by moving one square, as for moving on the diagonal that just makes sense it's a longer way to travel than a straight line.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Who ever said the universe has to be sane? I can sit on top of a bicycle but I will be unbalanced and fall and yet if the bicycle is moving I'm fine or if the wheels were sitting on an axle instead of lined up I fall. This is clearly shenanigans (Yes I know the basic physical laws which make sense of this but if you showed this to somebody who didn't know why it works that way they could still just understand that that is the way things work.)
You're right for us this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever because we exist in our universe with our own physical laws but in Pathfinder the laws of the universe are dictated by the rules anyone who lives in that universe knows that any further than 5ft of movement makes it problematic to do any more than swing once.
From our perspective it's gibberish but that's just the way their universe functions we can only assume that they know the basic laws of their universe and as such that isn't player knowledge that is separate from character knowledge.
Well I don't know about you guys but I definitely do have to agree that metagaming can be a problem.
So let's start by defining metagaming. To metagame is to use out of game player knowledge to effect in game character actions yes?
I don't think that people who optimize are more likely to metagame when given the chance than others though, however I think people who optimize may be more likely to have the opportunity to metagame than your average player. The reason why is that I believe optimizers tend to have more knowledge about the game so when I see a black dragon I know he breathes acid or whatever or that a demon has DR/good but my character well he doesn't so if I see that I need to make sure to stop myself from using that knowledge whereas someone who doesn't know it doesn't have to.
That being said I know that while I'm the player most likely to optimize my character I also do less metagaming than the other players (I'll admit I'm awful about staying in character at the table some nights though).
So he's fluffing worship of multiple gods while following the mechanical benefits of just one? I see no reason to not allow that. In fact nothing in the rules states you can't worship more than one god just that all your powers are granted by one god in particular who you have to answer to. As long as he isn't swapping his primary god for mechanical advantage I see no problem.
Cao Phen wrote:
Monster arrays don't necessarily follow the same rules that PCs do it just gets funny because all the natural attack rules got half assed tacked onto PCs for example it is possible to have claws not on your hands and rage power claws never specify they grow out of your hands so why couldn't you have foot claws from the barbarian rage power?
Well because it's almost definitely not supposed to be allowed but if you want to pull some shenanigans you probably could.
PCs are prohibited from using the same limb to make two forms of attack both gore and bite use the same limb therefore a DM may prohibit you from using such a thing.
While I certainly feel unfair saying so I'm going to go ahead and say the coreforge sheet is a menace imo.
It's a resource hog that frequently crashes or bugs out and on top of that each copy of their sheets takes up around 100 mbs while this may not be relevant for some of you in my group we tend to put up copies of our sheets in case somebody needs to take over a character and if you have shoddy internet or a low cap sharing service(like dropbox's free version) you'll hit it pretty fast with sheets that large.
I definitely have always gone with the old fill in the blanks sheets with some basic excel functions input by hand but that doesn't really fit the OP.
Sure you can and assuming he's not investing in the natural attacks by buying an AoMF or anything else it would work but your damage with those 3 attacks will be at half strength with no magic bonus and no way to get around DR at which point you pretty much just wasted the feat you used to get it.
I keep hearing this, but with 5 natural attacks all going off of your highest BAB? Sounds like you'll be hitting about 3 times as much, applying your (admittedly, pricier) bonuses a lot more. And lvl 10 is also when the beast totem barb (which you should be, since it gives you both claws and rage) gets pounce, so that should boost you back up.
Lets say you are a Beast totem barb and even assuming that you're allowed to use blood of the moon which I can't actually check on since it's not even close to a core series book and I don't have it.
You're still rolling at double the cost for the enhancement bonus on top of no amulet of natural armor which inherently gives you a to hit penalty and an AC penalty and you get half the value out of having haste that a Two hand weapon user gets you also don't get equivalent value out of power attack and the THF is getting 1.5 his str bonus on his attacks he can also easily get a 15+ crit range which means 1/4 of the time he's doing double damage and he gets around DR much more easily than you can and he actually increases his number of attacks as he levels while you will never go above 5+1 from haste.
IMO it's not nearly as OP as it sounds once you get past the early levels but this is just another reason to not allow splat books the balance is shoddy at best.
Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
Here's the thing WBL doesn't necessarily translate to CR with any reasonable degree of certainty at all which is why their isn't a table exactly relating the two.
And you're right neither CR nor WBL are hard rules but they are both linked aspects of the same idea which is that players prefer a game in which they are reasonably challenged not them steam rolling nor them being rolled.
In order to facilitate this idea the WBL chart and the CR chart are both relevant. Exceptionally well played/created parties will have a variance on what is a reasonable challenge but if you follow the charts you're in the right ballpark which makes the DMs life easier so if you ignore them you may find you TPK the party while you're still trying to zero in on their relative power level which is usually frowned upon.
It's decent of course you ignore that once you're level 6 or 10 or 12 you keep falling behind a player who can buy enhancement bonuses for half the cost of yours has bigger damage dice and more importantly crit ranges. So yeah it's a decent frontloaded combo that pretty much hits its maximum potential at level 2 onos?
I believe I can say with some surety that that was a really stupid thing to do when their version of a magic weapon for monks is like one quarter as good as just having a magic weapon if not worse than that.
Although the fact that the +x on fists costs 2x more than the +x on a weapon and caps out at +5 instead of +10 like any other single weapon in the game or a cumulative +20 as it would if you were using 2 weapons to fight is really confusing.
23 or 24 AC at level 10 isn't really that good...
For touch attacks it is.
Edit: Note that Bruno had a touch AC of 21, Malkov's Barb. had a raging touch AC of 8 and Simple the fighter had a touch AC of 13. Also the iconic wizard sits at 14 and the iconic Cleric at 15 so it's roughly 8-10 points above your allies meaning anything with even odds to hit them would be very unlikely to hit you. Now does that mean you won't have trouble against a touch attack thrown by the big boss? No of course it doesn't She has a to hit bonus on her touch attacks of something like +12 which gives her around 50/50 odds of getting you but she hits your friends on like a 3+ so in comparison it's good.
True although nominally the Monk would have the highest touch AC out of the party probably. Sitting somewhere around a 23 or 24 depending on build even without fighting defensively or crane style or using ki points to buff it up. This gives him a bit of an advantage but the enemy can pretty much 1 shot him with a harm spell and some luck so that's more what I'm concerned with.
Honestly considering how bad the monk seems to be doing I might just say go with a twf Ranger with 3 level of Fighter for weapon training and then run around with brawling armor and Gloves of Dueling for a +5/+5 on your to hit and damage then pick up an AoMF for an enhancement bonus on your fists and you should be sitting pretty although your will save suffers a fair bit compared to a Monk but what can you do?
Hmmm she certainly does. On the plus side she doesn't really have much to effect her AC or become invisible.
So 11 5 hd ones, or maybe 3 10 HD undead and then 5 with 5 HD regardless a decent number of enemies.
Lets say we're running around with Bless Prayer and Haste since this is the big bad, and she has SR, Magic Vestement, and Protection from Good, as well as freedom of movement, air walk, divine power, and a wind wall spell up.
The DC 19 Fear save is negligible as the monk passes it on a 4+ with the buff advantage or a 6+ normally.
She tosses down Flame Strike round 1 as a readied spell for when they come through the door maybe? DC 22 vs a +16 Ref save means the monk dodges it entirely on a 6+ and takes half even if he doesn't.
The monk could dodge the minions via a fly potion/spell but having that many of them rolling up on him from behind would be bad for his health so I'd imagine he'd engage the minions but without ACs and whatnot I don't know how he'd fare.
Lord Twig wrote:
For buffs on the party side what do you say to Haste cast by the wizard on the whole party, and Prayer by the cleric. As for the brain eating horde what sort of configuration are we looking at? Is their space to walk through/around them or are we going to slog through the minions as they're a wall of meat in front of us?
Edit: Also might help to know the CMD for the faceless horde to evaluate the effectiveness of trying to use acrobatics to get through.
Don't we all? T-T
EDIT: In a to hit bonus related sidebar can the Weapon Master Fighter Choose unarmed strikes as his favored weapon? Because it might be worth it to sidebar three levels to get weapon training and gloves of dueling access instead of some of the later monk levels.
Ah but if Bob's stunning fist lands then the dragon is out for a turn, which is a help for the party. So we finally have an answer to what a monk brings to a party in terms of group utility, a melee 1 round duration single target control effect. Hard to imagine how a group could manage without that.
A single target 1 round control effect with low odds of success let's not forget.
If Twig doesn't mind me subbing in my own monk into that encounter and in addition to assuming Haste we'll assume someone got off the Bless spell before we go charging in valiantly maybe we did it because we got scouts out maybe because we had another recent encounter or maybe the cleric has a metamagic quicken rod who knows, but it's pretty standard fare for a cleric or other divine caster to have bless or even on 3/4 or 1/2 casters.
So we have +2 to Hit, +1 to AC, +1 to Ref. Saves and 1 extra attack on full attacks.
Lets assume my monk uses his first round to go into Dragon style use a ki point for +4 to AC and Charges at the dragon(I think dragon style lets him ignore the underbrush unless you're counting it as something other than difficult terrain) suffering an attack of opportunity. His AC will be 29+4+1-2 for a net 32 the dragon swings at a +21 for 21 points of damage so he needs an 11+ to hit for say an average of around 11 damage on his AoOp. The Monk has a single attack at +14+2+2 for +18 he hits on a 9 up for around 18 damage averaging around 9 or 10 damage. But the monk almost certainly doesn't get through the mirror image on his first turn so lets start at the second turn assuming he manages to make his save vs the fear which is fairly likely although not guaranteed. Lets say for the sake of simplicity that between the monk and the fighter they clear the images on turn one but do no damage to the dragon.
The dragon (full hp) starts turn 1 in melee with the monk (107-11=96hp) assuming it slacks off and simply trades full attacks against the monks heightened AC of 32(34 after the monks round 2) he averages around 30 dpr meaning the monk can stand up for 2 maybe 3 whole rounds as long as he isn't particularly unlucky and uses his ki for defense instead of offense and I didn't flub the math. The Monk is swinging at +17/+17/+12/+12/+17 on his full attack against the Dragon's shielded AC of 31 for an average dpr of 15 which is pretty damn atrocious. Over the 3 rounds it would take for the dragon to kill him the monk maybe puts out around 45 damage. This puts him at around 25% of the damage dealt to kill the monster which is pretty bad considering he is one of the two primary melee combatants and we're doing this in relatively favorable circumstances.
My drunken master monk above does have the ability to charge into the woods to hit the dragon but on the negative side the dragon would butcher him in prolonged combat. Even assuming haste was up and shield got dispelled the dragon lands hits on a 9+/14+ to the monks 11+/16+ on full attacks, with shield up the monk is landing hits on a 15+/20 at which point he's boned in terms of dpr.
Drunken Master Face Puncher Monk:
Dwarven Monk, Qinggong, Drunken Master level 10 (20point pb)
Str-16 +2(lvls) + 2(enh.) = 20
Dex-14 +2(enh.) = 16
Con-14 +2(Race)+2(enh.) = 18
Int-9 = 9
Wis-14 +2(Race)+2(enh.) = 18
Cha-7 -2(Race) = 5
62k WBL- Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16k) Bracers of Armor +2 (4k) Ring of Protection +2 (8k) Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (16k) Quickrunner Shirt (1k) Jaunt Boots(7.2k) Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4k) Cloak of Resistance +2 (4k) total 60.2k Spend the remaining 1800 on Alcohol, a flask to be held in hand at all times, and probably 40 shurikens of each necessary variety(cold iron, mithral, etc.)
Traits - Heavy Hitter, Defensive Strategist
Qinggong Powers at 4,5,7 for Barkskin, Scorching Ray, and Power Attack.
To hit on single melee attack - +14 to damage 1d10+13
3 Skills per level = 30 points
This just a variant of my own character toned down from our higher point buy but I think it's not absolutely terrible. My item choices are probably sub par but I haven't really researched what I want for a higher level monk so it'll have to do please feel free to correct me on any mistakes I've made.
He can hit the dragon in the air on a 1+ with scorching rays but has a bad shot of getting through SR. However it is better than nothing and his ability to land hits with shurikens is negligible.
In hand to hand the Dragon lands 3 hits on a 8+ and 3 hits on a 13+ while the monk can only land his first 2 hits on a 12+ and 2 hits on a 17+ which is bad news bears for the monk if he isn't gaining any bonuses from spells or abilities or the dragon isn't suffering from penalties.
Edit 2: He also has a decent shot of ignoring the fear effect and a 50/50 shot of getting hit by the breath but if he succeeds he takes 0 damage due to evasion.
Sure you can but this assumes that the face smashing barbarian can't do that. If by take an enemy out of an encounter for x rounds you mean grappling him the barbarian does it better in general(tetori may be a corner case but the trade offs are much larger for it when it can't use grapple than for the barbarian) Stopping the enemy from casting a spell? How is your monk doing that by getting in his face? Well the Barbarian has increased move speed that stacks with haste/enhancement bonuses so he's doing that just fine, alternatively he can take spell sunder and literally cut magic spells to pieces.
While combat isn't just DPR which is the easiest measurable context to how useful you are in combat, most of the things which monk supporters claim to be how they know monks are more useful than other classes isn't monk exclusive and most often the monk isn't even the ideal choice to do what they claim.
So I agree that combat isn't just DPR(although DPR is important since monsters need to die one way or the other) but if you think that accounting for non DPR things makes the monk good you're fooling yourself.
Lord Twig wrote:
While the race isn't necessarily bad, I'm playing him at level one and a lot of the payoffs are coming later for example I get the bonus speed at 3 the high point buy lets me keep wis, dex, and con fairly high while keeping Str capped and even let me dump a few points into Int for an extra skill point per level.
It's true that I could just dock points off of strength for the pb and do up the build as a 10th level character it would feel disingenuous since doing that would hurt me pretty notably in the lower levels when I'm having a tough time landing hits and can't afford magical anything to get around it. It also doesn't help that my build is making some pretty mechanically bad choices in order to get access to fast drinker so that he can spam ki mid fight as much as he wants at level 7 but yeah it's hard managing the trade offs for a monk that's all that I can say.
Personally if I were min maxing I'd probably rather be human all things said though. Sure I'd lose a +2 bonus(and a -2 penalty) but I'd gain the option to put the remaining +2 where I please and the bonus feat would be roughly worth another +2 equivalent in Con if I took Toughness also I'd get a +1 skill point per level for free which would let me dock points out of int without really suffering. Stupid humans being mechanically good. I'd also get 10ft more movement all the time which would be notable earlier although I give up +2 to all my saves which is bad but certainly less bad on the monk than on any other class barring paladin.
I kind of agree having access to style feats as monk bonus feats would be huge and not just because their bonus feats are pretty god awful either. Hell if they had just added them to the bonus feats list but limited it so they couldn't ignore the pre requisites on them that would still be a big buff to the monk.
Even with Invuln. Rager it's not the only option to make a strong Barbarian I've seen plenty of builds around Urban Barbarian or whatever it's called and other archetypes as well as builds using just the core barbarian. I've seen plenty of different archetypes used for fighters and rangers, I mostly ignore paladin threads but I'm sure other archetypes are used for those.
But Monks? A good monk uses one of two archetypes by default, Qinggong or MoMS. They may stack on some archetypes in addition to those but one of those will pretty much always be included and the only time Qinggong isn't stacked onto Monk is if the Monk class is just a dip hence MoMS. Now let's ignore MoMS for a second because it's a whole different beast and is often used for dipping cheese.
What is it that Qinggong lets you do? It gives you the option to trade out abilities the core monk has for spells(SLA's technically but whatever), and feats for the most part. Now it is worth noting that the Monk abilities are so bad that the ability to cast a single specific spell constrained to a number of times per day equal to his ki pool's allowance and also limited by how much he need to use the bonus ki attack on his flurries is still mostly better than the ability he would get normally. This is pretty much proof positive that the Core Monk is weak.
Now lets look at the classes like say the Barbarian or Fighter or Gunslinger. How desirable is it to trade out their core abilities? How many barbarians would give up rage increases or rage powers for a single 2nd level spell that used up 10-20% of their daily Rage per use?