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Soft touch folks, 3rd party isn't automatic disqualification, it just has to pass an extra drug test.
For some tables yes for others no. If we knew that the players DM had okay'd the 3PP feats and ruled for him in the shady rules area of flanking attacks at range it would be fine albeit still not really Ew worthy just pretty good.
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Hardy still isn't a feat. And lets compare that to an average 20th level caster for a baseline?
Because I played an Iksar in EQ and want to live out the glory days. Because I had a lizardman army in Warhammer and I need an excuse to use some of the models I have laying around gathering dust. Because everyone wants to be a dragon and lizardmen are a good base for a half dragon or cursed dragon character. Those are the ones that pop to mind first for me.
Artemis Moonstar wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with this one, yes my current character could maybe have been done using a single classed character frankly he might have been stronger(mechanically) if I'd done it that way but multiclassing is almost always the most effective way to fulfill a weird RP idea that you have if the game doesn't have a hybrid class that does it for you.
For example until the Magus was released the only way to make a magic swordsman was by taking two classes and then bumping into a prestige class to do it. Even now ideas like a bloodthirsty viking cleric of a war god might be played by mixing Barbarian with Cleric. Powergaming particularly in Pathfinder is usually not benefited by multiclassing and you straight up can't do what you like with feats and skills in a single class a lot of the time. Particularly because for some classes you just don't have skills or feats to spare. I have to just agree with "What?" because that just doesn't make sense.
The main reasons not to multiclass are pretty obvious.
If you're a caster, don't multiclass and lose caster levels.
If you're a specialized martial dependent on a scaling class feature like Barbarians, Monks, any sort of combat maneuver build etc. Multiclassing weakens you in general unless it's done as a dip into just the right class at the right time.
Some people find multiclassing to be an issue because you suddenly acquire skills. And to be frank that's a fair issue to have but the reason it's even an issue is because people are overpacing their campaigns. Not in terms of player time because obviously we don't all want to sit around and role play 6 months of downtime in depth. But the fact is at least at my gaming table we have pretty much no downtime built in. We've leveled 3 or 4 times and we've known each other for about a week and a half. It's up to your DM to manage this properly so that progression feels natural and while it's easier to look at a character go from almost an apprentice to an Archmage in the span of maybe 6 months in game time and just think oh well he was always just casting spells, that's not any more realistic than a Rogue who randomly picks up spellcasting one day.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Do the rules say anything about your players not beating you unconscious with their hard back rulebooks and finding a DM who isn't a t!&%?
Orfamay Quest wrote:
To be fair we wouldn't be sitting at the same table once you said "You're just going to have to play with that 4 that you rolled." That is pretty much a cue from a bad DM that I should flip the table toss a grenade over it and run.
Intelligence is inherently subjective look up the theory of multiple intelligence's and read about how imprecise the use of IQ is to measure intelligence. When you find a way to provide a cold hard statistical chart for human intelligence come back, until then, "you got nothin'"
Except you're wrong. Low intelligence is perfectly defined.
A person with low intelligent has less breadth and depth of training in many skills, he or she is inherently more forgetful and has trouble recalling things that they may have read (takes a penalty to Knowledge skills), is more gullible or easily fooled as to the real value of an object(penalty to Appraise skill), lacks understanding of the craft of spell casting and how it is codified(takes a penalty on spellcraft), has a more difficult time planning and creating things (takes a penalty on craft skills), such a person is less eloquent and has more difficulty learning languages they weren't born into as well as having a harder time deciphering codes or ancient tomes (takes a penalty on linguistics).
Sounds like an awful lot of definition for the consequences of having a low Int score. Now just because you or your gaming group are too lazy to use or allow the use of those skills for anything of relevance doesn't mean they don't exist and don't accurately convey the penalty for having a bad score on their own.
That's like saying that because you ignore the weight capacity rules that Str scores aren't accurately covered and so from now on your character rolls DC10 Str checks to not collapse helplessly anytime he engages in physical activity.
4th ed rules for the start and end in concealment stealth thing iirc.
With a new DM I'd say he'd hunt them down because he doesn't know if you're cheating or just wrong about the rules so he'd want to check them all.
Just tell your GM it's not a super death machine. If he's not willing to even audit your character, he's probably not that great a GM to begin with.
To be fair the DM is probably already putting in more time than the player into the game setup and the DM in question probably has a life outside of the game, making him spend hours going through pdfs, books, faqs, etc to audit your characters might just not be worth the time for him and that's fair imo.
Best bet is bribe the DM, give him some pizza or something to compensate him for his time and make him feel less bad about it. Also go through your stuff and note every book and page number which you take something from and when necessary provide him with the books in question if he doesn't have them on hand.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Uhhh and a lot of people wouldn't (cremation) and that's ignoring the fact that it's eminently practical in the universe.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If they're paying for true resurrection there is no reason not to destroy the body before hand so why aren't the priests doing that?
I don't know I'd opt for,
DM says: Are you sure you want to try to steal from this well established magical item shop?
DM means: I'm going to have all your characters get stabbed to death by the roving death squads they hire to keep this king's ransom of magical goods safe if you do this, just try me.
No offense meant to Ravingdork I like a lot of his character concepts but I've definitely seen characters of his which I felt would not survive the climb to the level where they come into their own as well.
But yeah I can attest that with a higher point buy I'm more liable to play something that is either more MAD, more thematic, or more quirky. I was considering making a twf build that passes it's own crits to itself to use with a big multiplier weapon that I would never have bothered with if our PB wasn't so high. And I did infact go into Noble Scion which definitely would not have happened if I didn't know that the rest of our party wasn't optimizing and if our DM hadn't given us rather ungodly stats.
I think an array is better for this kind of thing than point buy though because it means that while you might have a crazy high PB equivalent you might force SAD classes to be a little more rounded whether they like it or not and it gives MAD classes more bang for their buck than PB might. But other methods work too.
If levels in Rogue were worth taking you'd see people taking them anyways like with fighter levels and all of their primary features having been passed around to other classes.
Note things like Magus, EK, Sohei, I think a Barbarian archetype etc all get access to "fighter levels" or things like Weapon Training and Armor Training.
I don't even think the fighter is that good but it's certainly more worth a dip than the Rogue is.
Frankly the real issue with the Rogue is that their only combat ability is situational and mediocre and conflicts with the lack of accuracy on the rest of their kit, and that Rogue Talents, unlike any other classes Feat equivalents, are pretty much universally worse than just having extra feats.
If you want to use an old EQ 1 example it's worth noting that often you had Wizards, Mages, Necros, Shadow Knights, Monks, Enchanters, and other classes infringing on their role as a scout and often those classes were valued more highly than the Rogue because of party dynamics(needed a tank, needed burst DPS, needed a puller, etc.)
And on top of that, that in EQ 1 Rogues were among the highest DPS classes in the game when they had good weapons on their hands, additionally EQ had an agro system which allowed "Tanks" to actually exist while they don't in Pathfinder and as such each Rogue can get pounded into a fine paste by an angry monster in each fight.
This isn't a solution to the Rogue's problems in Pathfinder, no offense. And they aren't unusually good at doing the other roles you specified, they have the same bonuses everyone does unless they are built to optimize for it in which case they have absolutely no value in combat unlike many other classes who can benefit from specializing towards that both in combat and out of it.
AFAIK he can't. The game doesn't support downgrading moves or standards into swifts so that isn't an option ... I suppose if he could get access to timestop somehow he'd have a couple bonus rounds to use swifts in but overall it's not an option unless I missed something.
A - E ) Yes you can always do your actions in any order you choose and you possess 1 swift one move and one standard per round a 5 ft step is a non action which is exclusive of other movement that round, and a full attack takes one move and one standard action, hence any combination of those is valid.
"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round." (d20pfsrd.com)
You can also 5 ft step during your full attack should you choose if say you kill the enemy next to you and want to resolve the rest on a nearby enemy.
F) Probably? "A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
G) Only one swift or Immediate they are called out in the core rules as being the same thing only the Immediate can be done outside of your turn and takes up your next round's swift action.
H) If they used another swift already or an immediate in the previous round. Or surprise rounds/ other times you lose actions.
I'm going to toss in my 2 cents I suppose.
For what it's worth I don't hate the idea of a healer in MMOs or videogames where a healer converts easily restored mana into HP at a far greater rate than it is dealt as damage and when often times you are controlling more than one character(at least for JRPGs or RPGs like Baldur's Gate etc.)
That being said, in said games a healer does outpace the damage dealt, and more importantly, post healing you generally need only to pop some potions or sit around for a minute to fully recover your spell pool. In this game you need to pull over the entire party for a solid 8 hours to recover your ability to heal and as such spam healing like in those games becomes a much less valuable thing.
In contrast I do really think spot/emergency healing is valuable depending on the circumstances and I think having a refill wand of CLW to top off post battle is important as well. But I am generally highly skeptical of someone who wants to go in right off the bat as a "Healer" or even worse if they say they want to play a "Pacifist" character because if you make the healing your primary role and don't pay attention to the other things a divine caster can do you are just shooting yourself in the foot and making things unnecessarily hard on yourself and your party.
TLDR: Having the ability to heal is great, focusing solely on healing is bad, and when you say you want to play a healer it's important to make sure everyone understands which of those you mean.
Fair I was actually just pointing out people who can do Rogue stuff and are superior at combat while being roughly equivalent at social stuff because they have the same amount of focus on Cha(roughly none). I'll admit I tend to focus on combat effectiveness since my DM is relatively unlikely to call for rolls on skills(he prefers us just acting it out) but the OP did ask for someone who could hold his own in combat as well.
So yeah Bard is choice number one I agree but I think the ones I listed are half steps towards the character intended if the OP doesn't like Bard for whatever reason.
If the rest of your party is playing anything of moderate levels of optimization or higher the Rogue is a bad choice if they aren't your DM can rebalance encounters down to make up for it.
Bard would be a superior choice almost always. Other options that I'd consider are Ninja(just a better Rogue if you don't need trapfinding and depending on your GMs policy on campaign traits you could trade one of those for it). I hear alchemists can do a Rogues job pretty well with the right archtype.
Trapper and Urban Rangers both can do what you want pretty well. Urban is stronger imo but Trapper is a better 1 level dip if you want a different class afterwards.
If you don't need trapfinding at all you could probably get there with a Lorewarden Fighter which also is one of the best choices to pull off combat maneuvers and if you're human you get a decent number of skill points to do what you want. If needed you could take the one level dip in Rogue or Trapper Ranger before swapping to this to round out your skills a bit but it's not really a great investment of a level compared to just speeding up progression as a Lorewarden.
Show me where it says that in the rules? If you can't find it then the air has whatever CMD the DM decides it has. Likewise with burrow you would never be able to surface and therefore suffocate to death.
Sure you can, of course now the air is your foe, and as such you cannot move through it's square. And since there is no listed CMD for Air due to GM prerogative it now has a CMD of 99.
And since you can't occupy the same square as an enemy the air moves out of your square on it's turn, and you suffocate to death without being able to move. Congratulations on that Great Cleave though. Worth?
Or until you get Butterfly Sting and pass off those crits to the x4 Scythe weilding 2handed meathead who slices their torsos in half.
As far as to hit vs damage +1 to hit is a 5% increase in average damage so anytime 5% of your damage per hit is greater than 1 it's a win assuming you never hit the bounds of the equation. For a 1d4 weapon that point would be at roughly +17 damage per hit. Not impossible but quite high for a twf of course this ignores the possibility of critting which skews the numbers a bit since you do double damage 25% of the time(assuming improved crit) so average damage is up to 125% which would drop that break point number to 13.6 which is not hard to get to with a +5 from strength and the odd buff. Still that definitely is going to be advantageous only later in the game not in the first few levels.
As far as daggers being more versatile ... eh. Yes they give you more damage types and can be thrown but thrown weapons suck so I don't really think that's super valuable.
Edit: Damn I've been ninja'd
Urgh retraining. For what it's worth at my table we have never and will probably never use that rule because it's a damn mess.
And yes Racial Natural Armor as well as Template based ones since anything you put in the game in general is available to the DM as well and some spells give you NA (no not Barkskin I know that's an enhancement).
Sooooo you want to balance the Rogue's combat ability with the best line of Barbarian rage powers which incidentally blocks out about a dozen other options when you take it and is gated by a level and a pretty bad pre requisite power?
Edit: Also Natural Armor doesn't stack unlike dodge.
1) Is pretty overpowered +5 dodge bonus to AC for 1 feat equivalent?
2) Is okay I think balance on it might be better if it was switched to 1 round per 1d6 sneak attack dice you have but including a fort. save with DC 10+1/2 rogue levels+(Str or Dex whichever is higher).
3)Is okay depends on what the X ends up being but it's certainly not bad.
4) Ugh just no. Still bad. Making it a 1/day ability blows and is absolutely not worth a feat imo. Make it 1 plus one per 6 levels +(Int or Cha) at the absolute minimum or make it a freebie that gets added in at level 6 or something.
Also I'd add:
6) Sharpened Eyesight - Gain Darkvision - 60ft
Not really. The reason Rogues don't focus on defense isn't because they need to focus on offense but because they need to focus on just getting sneak attacks this doesn't alleviate that issue which means all it does is make the Rogue more inconsistent between when he's sneak attacking and when he's not.
In general I find inconsistency in my character to be annoying at best and intolerable at worst but not everyone agrees with me.
To cap it all off the ability doesn't really make sense in context either since thick hide and being literally made of steel apparently make it no more difficult for the Rogue to find a good place to stick you but only when he sneaks.
The touch AC while sneak attacking wouldn't help much the Rogues issue is one of consistency and getting killed when trying to take advantage of sneak attack more than the damage when they have the ability to sneak attack. I'd opt for either Full BAB or offer them significantly more durability maybe both.
Personally I think the Rogue could do with Full BAB a d10 hit die and a strong will save(strong willed and shifty minded makes more sense to me than hearty constitutions) will he get it? No. But Paizo would never give them the touch attack thing either so we're already talking houserules at this point.
Dance of Blades is solid and bumps you up to average human speed even in heavy armor. Armor mastery is okay early if you put points into dex or later after you pick up stat bonus belts maybe. I like Iron Skin and Iron Constitution is a better version of Great Fortitude after it caps out at 14.
I'd dump either Wis or Int to pay for extra Str, Cha, or Con.
I also don't really see the point in going for Combat Reflexes on such a character, you'll be spread too thin and I find the feat to not be that good unless you're going full on with it and trying to pull off something special like say a Trip+Reach build but YMMV.
As far as feats I like Furious Focus + Power Attack and Weapon Focus on a combat oriented Oracle for the first 4 levels PA+FF is pretty much a straight +3 and for the next 3 levels it's +6 to damage for 2 feats which isn't bad. After that it's value drops a bit because of secondary attacks but even then it's like having Vital Strike in that you're a bit more effective when moving than otherwise.
If you are going for a maneuver build with reach those feats would be necessary as would Combat Reflexes and the Steel Scarf Revelation ends up pretty neat.
Other decent feat options include Eldritch Heritage feats to get Orc or Abyssal I think which have Str bonuses built in and in theory your Cha is going to have to keep up at around that level if you intend to cast higher level spells.
If the DM doesn't want you to have money you're not going to have money it doesn't matter what you do.
Just scratch off the gold section of your character sheet and pretend there's no such thing when anyone asks you about gold or pay, start spouting communist propaganda at the table. I'd say 50/50 odds the DM gets sick of it and asks you to stop, then explain that communism is perfectly reasonable when there are no reasonable rewards for exceptional work already, and if such rewards were available your character might care more. If he continues his obstinate behavior begin killing and redistributing wealth in the populace to bring down the Bourgeoisie.
This may or may not get you booted from the group though so there is that.
How much do they sleep with? Completely up to them.
How much can they sleep with? Pretty much everything.
How much would I have my character sleep in? Well given that the game doesn't have a discomfort mechanic outside of armor I'd say all of it.
If we were being realistic though probably rings are on and maybe amulets, possibly a body/chest slot depending on the item would be worn as a nightshirt of sorts, headbands are probably on, belts would probably be a no although because of the rules I would never remove it so I'd say that's a yes, boots are off probably, gloves are probably off but that's a maybe, bracers are probably off, eyes are almost certainly off. Light armor might be on depending on how militant/wary the character is.
There can never be a weakest class because I'll ban hammer anyone who infringes on the weaklings roles! Sounds like some quality DMing.
Sorry mate but I think you need to recheck the definition for just."based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.
"a just and democratic society"
I think a more accurate statement would be "It's not fair, but it makes the game more fun for the other players." or "It's not fair, but it enhances game balance for the players who put in less effort in character creation."
But most certainly it is neither just nor fair. It is in fact punishing a player for putting effort into the game/knowing the rules.
Eh I'm inclined to disagree not on 3.5 vs PF because I don't care to try to look up the 3.5 rules.
But Skill mastery explicitly calls out stress and distress as the things it negates and UMD flat out states it cannot be taken 10 on. A generous reading of the rules might allow you to do it but it's definitely a gray area.
Yep. Still neat for people with heavy armor proficiency who don't want to wear full plate for some reason like say too much dex or trying to keep your acp low.
K177Y C47 wrote:
Lets ignore the Rogue for the moment because he's a big old bundle of s!**e and we'll ignore mythic because mythic has never been intended to be balanced, does that seem reasonable?
Lets say you're running a party of 5 characters, with 20 point buy, and lets assume commonly banned content is banned aka the Summoner. Let's also assume the DM rather than providing content he intends for you to steamroll is pushing the envelope of your ability to kill things by providing high AC high DR and high Saves on the mobs. Now which of these classes can maintain an equivalent to hit score as a Full BAB class when said full BAB class is buffed by a Bard(5th man), a Cleric, and perhaps the odd spell from a wizard and equipped properly.
I think the real issue is many of these classes can't stack spells, clerics, oracles, and inquisitors all share buff spells. Bards, Alchemists, and Summoners, mostly share spell lists with Wizards although with a few exceptional ones they keep to themselves/get early access to. So at a certain point unless the personal spells alone make up the difference you're not really getting value out of adding extra casters in a combat enhancement sense.
Eh I don't really agree with this one unless you're talking about a party of 3 or fewer people.
There are a finite number of good spells for any situation and generally you can cover them with 3 or so casters, so then it devolves to who is better at dealing the HP damage to cause the being dead condition after that.
Admittedly we also run concentration rules differently than most groups so casters get a hefty nerf in combat for us.
But even so Martials are more effective damage dealers than spell casters in most situations over the long run particularly if the enemy is incapacitated or the allies buffed due to friendly spellcasters.
Chengar Qordath wrote:
While I agree that player disparity can make a huge difference in overall power for a character and can easily bridge the gap, the fact remains that if both were optimized and played to the max a caster has more options and is more effective than a fighter.
That being said I have opted to play a Caster in 2 out of our last 5 or 6 games with one game where I had a caster cohort because a player fell ill and had to quit and we needed somebody to fill that role, and I would say that it is true that I min max my characters fairly well and a Full caster that is 2 levels behind can still be quite effective in a party whereas it's hard for a martial to do the same.
I have also very much opted for support casters rather than showy casters because I think it's more fun for everyone that way.
That being said in our current campaign everyone is a 6 level or 9 level caster excluding me.
Sir Thugsalot wrote:
What's the name of the ninja who dissed the 'blockbuster' wizard?
A. Nobody knows because he was invisible and stabbed the wizard repeatedly in the head and killed him while he had invisible blade. Just saying Evasion is way less than it's cracked up to be and is available as a master trick at 10+.
Except everyone in this universe has theoretically been doing things for umpteen years a dwarf rogue for example could has spent 100 years disarming traps magical and mundane but if I say have him walk over a horrible deadly trap without mentioning that I'm searching for traps and it kills me I'm not allowed to retcon it because my character totally would have done this! I don't think letting the DM do that makes any damn sense either.
I hate DMs like you just fyi.
Walter Leeuwen wrote:
So a char got killed at level 18+ most encounter can and probably will kill party members, there are spells te repair and prevent that, if they dont use those than it is the party's own doing they get snuffed
So a DM incorrectly used the rules and killed off a party member what a bunch of babies for feeling like that's a s~@%ty thing to do ...
Summoner is best. Synthesist is an unholy abomination that works. Alternatively a bard archer could work with these stats get a race with dex and cha as racial mods and the rest is manageable. You won't be great but you can still buff people to the gills.
Seems neat I like what I saw I always felt like all of the prereqs/investment kind of killed a lot of the feat chains for me. might show it to my DM as a possible change to our house rules for our next campaign.
3 levels in Weapon Master archetype Fighter would be well worth it to get you weapon training with scimitars(and access to gloves of dueling) and heavier armor proficiency although you'll probably never pick up anything heavier than celestial armor or a mithral BP if you're going dex focused.
It would also net you a few feats and a stronger fortitude save. As far as the feats if you're worried about dying too easily consider taking Toughness and maybe Iron Will yeah they're kind of boring but it can do the job in a pinch.
Now admittedly most of these are longish term fixes the first level of fighter at best with a mithral BP(if you had 5-6kgp sitting around) nets you +2 AC which isn't stellar the same hp unless you've been using your favored class bonus on skills 6 less skill points and a bonus feat that gets you maybe 8hp.
Frankly it might be easier to go into bard but you'll always be behind the 8ball with the Rogue levels slowing down your access to the good spells and the scaling on inspire. Check to see if your DM would let you change your class levels in Rogue for Bard straight across?