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Melee Tactics Toolbox, p. 8 wrote:
I wounder if that's applicable here?
Wow, I guess that I'm bad at creating riddles then. :/
I was going for the first letter of the first word in each of the phrases spelling "ounce" (first impressions speak volumes)
and the first letter of each second word makes three (amount to revelations)
Oh well. Maybe if I had provided a better mechanism for the "ounce" portion.
The Sphinx says "It has been Ages since I have had a proper cup of tea. Nobody serves it the way I like. Pour for me, and I shall let you pass."
The service consists of a teapot and 2 cups, one marked "5" and the other marked "2". On the serving tray is engraved:
Only the Strong survive / Unless he who is Wise can see / No riddle may bar his way / Certain even unto Death / Every entry is meant for him
If it takes more than a minute or two, Linguistics check (or Int, or Wis) to figure the answer. Alternatively, a Diplomacy check to as the Sphinx "How do you take it?" could give them a hint.
Look into the feat Binding Throw. Since you can replace a single attack in your Full Attack routine with a trip attempt, you can burn a swift action to initiate the grapple. Of course, this doesn't help in subsequent rounds (unless you are a Maneuver Master Monk), but it is rather nice to inflict the Prone and Grappled conditions while getting extra attacks.
I recommend a single level dip into Devilbane Priest Cleric (of Erastil or Gozreh). This will get you Heavy armor prof., and, more importantly, access to the Plant(Growth) subdomain. Swift action Enlarge is smokin' hot. Also, the classic Divine Favor + Fate's Favored is very strong.
While these builds are reasonably tasty, you *COULD* step your control game up with Whirlwind Attack. I know that eats a TON of feats, but....Having a control area the size of a Stone Call spell is NASTY.
I really like 1/2 Orcs for the Toothy alternate racial. Sure, it's piddly dice, but you get Str x 1.5 and 3->1 Power Attack on it, so it stays competitive when you need damage (before you get Advanced Weapon Training, anyway) Sacred Tattoo is very nice as well, especially with Fate's Favored.
...Actually, that Sorcerer won't cast Confusion until level 9, when he actually gets it (unless he chooses to learn it regularly at level 8). The spell that he gets at level 3 is the 1st level spell Lesser Confusion. Make Whole comes at 5th, then Shrink Item at 7, and eventually Confusion at level 9.
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that there's no "Bard build that you would use in place of literally any other class."
Human Bard (Arcane Duelist) 1
Traits: River Rat, Reactionary
Feats: Arcane Strike (Class Bonus), Lingering Performance (1st Level), Improved Initiative (Human Bonus)
Skills: 1 rank each in Climb, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception, Perform (Oratory), Spellcraft, Stealth, and Swim.
Gear: Buckler, Chain Shirt, Dagger (x2), Sling (w/ 20 bullets), Spell Component Pouch, 50 ft rope, Backpack, 1 Acid Flask, 2 gp, 8 sp remaining.
While this guy doesn't hit like a Power Attacking Barbarian, he does respectable damage (enough to drop most enemies at Level 1), has decent AC, can do some healing and/or battlefield control, has a decent skill array, is very fast, and can use his buff ability all day long.
Just don't let them use the pregen Harsk.
In all seriousness though, I really like the idea of having a Bard in there. More PCs is tantamount to a more effective bard. Also, having just 1 other person who can cast CLW once or twice a day is pretty clutch. When the Cleric goes down because the goblin with a d4 got a crit and maxed damage, how do you recover from that? Bard to the rescue.
Having a bard is also nice for adding a +1 that everyone has to remember. The Cleric won't always bless, the Rogue can't always flank, but the Bard can almost always Inspire Courage. Having this aspect will prepare the kids to remember other situational bonuses that can become crucial, since they will have frequent exposure.
I'm also in agreement that having a Ranger with a pet can bog down the game, and that the pet usually will be more of a hindrance than help in combat. Just watch any episode of Critical Role.
The rest of the basic party composition seems very balanced.
To actually build the party, I'd limit it to Core and APG only. That should give a vast array of customization, without being overwhelming. The individual character builds might take a page out of the Guide to the Builds. Just take the 20 point buy suggestions, maybe modified slightly to give some flaw or additional flavor to the character. Perhaps take a point out of the primary stat and put it into Wisdom or Con. That should add durability at the expense of raw power and still give a solid character. For Feats and Skills, you're pretty limited at first level, so there really shouldn't be much dithering over the choices.
Yeah, we had our Bloodrager almost die THREE times in one single combat tonight because he kept getting healed. The poor sod never even got a turn until the battle was over. Stabilize would have kept him alive, while burning Cure Moderate charges bumped him back to being a primary target.
Stabilize is a decent pick when you have FOUR orisons. If you have eight at your disposal, it becomes a no-brainer. Much like Cavall seems to be saying about Channel Energy, taking Stabilize is another option that you have. Maybe I can channel just enough to get my buddy back up and kill the monster. Then again, maybe my turn is better spent killing the monster myself. Or, I can Stabilize my buddy, move in to cover him, and deal with it out of combat. There are situations where each is the best option.
Also, Guidance is a solid pick from 1 to 20. +1 on almost any d20 roll is always nice to have in your back pocket.
Something that people seem to be omitting is the text of Whirlwind Attack, wherein it is stated that you make one attack at your highest BAB against all foes within reach. Threatening has nothing to do with it. That will matter for AoOs and determining Flanking, but has NOTHING to do with Whirlwind Attack.
I can see where you're coming from, however, the PDT has specifically stated that FAQs apply only to what is specifically mentioned. Thus a Cleave FAQ has no bearing on Whirlwind Attack, even though it cites reasoning that should apply universally. Another thing to note, though, is that Cleave is a special action (not attack action, full attack action, etc.), whereas Whirlwind Attack is specifically a full attack action.
I've got a whip-and-trip master in PFS that does this religiously. If it's able to be tripped, he trips it. If it's unable to be tripped, he hits it. The swift action usage is very nice, as he took a level dip to get the Plant(Growth) subdomain, so he can swift action Enlarge 4x/day. This gives him an area of effect almost as large as that of the spell Stone Call. It's really good stuff. To more succinctly answer your questions;
1) Sure, he can sub trip, sunder, or disarm attempts for any attack
2) Yes to all.
3) If an opponent becomes within your reach during the course of your full attack, you have the opportunity to make a single attack against them. This can be applied to 3a, 3b, 3c, and/or any other situations that may cause an opponent that was previously out of reach to come into your reach.
4) AoO is not part of the full attack action, nor is it an extra attack. It occurs outside of a normal turn and has it's own special set of rules. Feel free to make any AoOs that are provoked. However, I will almost always forgo the initial AoO, saving it for when they stand up from prone, as I enjoy having a 20% better chance to hit.
It sounds like the PC in this case has been "training" for this trait for at least 3 levels and 3 months real-time. That seems like a reasonable investment of time to me.
When he gets back to the Pathfinder Lodge, have him undergo a "formal training ritual" with expensive material components worth at least 1,000 gp. He will need to formally forsake his past (lose Rich Parents and pay the material component cost) and embrace the values of the Society (gain new trait and pay the prestige point cost).
To all those who think that Rich Parents is overpowered - It's nowhere near as good as a +1 to AC. The cheapest variety other than a trait that this comes in is 1,000 gp or a feat.
I can see the reasoning behind allowing the extra 2 missiles. It's whoop-dee-doo stuff. It's hardly game-breaking, and if you want to blow a metamagic feat/slot on it, I'll totally allow it...In my home game. However, the targeting line and the description seem to imply that it caps a 5 missiles. Not Damage dice. Unless I've missed an FAQ or Errata, or some other official word. Totally not a big deal, though finding 7 creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart, might be a bit tricky.
I'll cop to the bit about no size limits, though. That part IS nice. Of course, most Gargantuan+ sized foes have pretty nasty CMDs...but a natural 20 always works, right?
So this Wizard is spending his feats on what again? The baseline for a Toppling Magic Missile is just about the same as the Fighter's baseline (Full CL = Full BAB, High casting stat = High Melee stat). How is the Wizard boosting his CMB?
You seem to be right, though that the CL would still go up to 20. However, the # of missiles would cap at 5, as the damage dice can go up by 5 levels, but no other aspect of the spell is increased, so no additional missiles. At least, as I read it.
BTW, that Fighter has a 40 foot radius centered on a grid intersection. Sure, it's effectively Close range, but it can certainly hit more than 5 targets, no 2 of which may be more than 15 feet apart. Besides, if the enemy is that bunched up, and that far away, Stone Call is a MUCH better spell anyway. More damage, no SR, can't be blocked by Shield, creates difficult terrain, etc.
Also, you're bothering to worry about 1d4+1 damage by the time you're at CL 9+? Seriously? It's kind of a cool trick in PFS at Lv.1, where you can get Spell Spec. and Toppling Spell, so you can hit and trip 2 foes with one action, but it doesn't seem to scale all that well.
You seem worried that the Fighter is blowing all of his feats on being a trip monster; you're right, he is doing exactly that. However, there are plenty of nice weapon alternatives in the Flails weapon group. Not to mention the new Advanced Weapon Training that allows the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage. Oh, it's a Gargantuan creature? Cool, I'll just lay some smack down on him with my Power Attack while I trip all of his buddies. What's more, they'll all provoke on their way down (and back up), so there's that.
I find it interesting that you're bringing up the Ring of Wizardry. That item allow you to maintain your ability to do what the Fighter can do all day, every day.
I'm also intrigued that you're suggesting that a full caster stoop down to the level of martials in the first place. If a Wizard REALLY, REALLY wants to do something, I'm pretty sure that it'll happen. You're certainly not going to need to convince me of the martial/caster disparity....
Maybe I'm missing the point? Is it that you're saying that a Wizard who happens to invest in Toppling Spell and no additional specialization is better than, say, a Ranger who happens to similarly invest one feat in Improved Trip? If that's the case, then I 100% agree.
Hey, what gives? I was under the impression that this thread is about Evocation, not Necromancy...?
Also, since we're bringing it back up (a move that provokes, no less), I'm at a loss as to how the Wizard is even close to being better than a trip-focused martial. Static modifier is CL (caps at 15 w/ Intensify) + casting stat (maybe +9 or so). I guess we could throw on Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Fury's Fall for good measure. Top end on this static mod is Low 30's at level 13. That's using almost every feat the Wizard gets to focus on tripping. My PFS Lore Warden (with a dip for Growth subdomain) is getting similar numbers at just over half the level. Also, Whirldwind Attack with a whip gives me a control area equal to Stone Call. It's pretty nasty.
It looks like Startoss Style is totally the way to go here. It's not like Weapon Spec gives ANYTHING over Startoss Style. If you happen to ALSO use the later Startoss feats, then it's akin to Cleave/Great Cleave, but that damage bonus is ALWAYS active as long as you take the swift action to activate the style.
Dude, Enlarge Person is HOT. Double reach, increased damage dice AND a Str boost? What's not to like? I mean, sure, it's not for everyone (finesse characters, casters, etc.), but if you're Str-based, it's golden. Especially if you've got an odd Str modifier.
Ummmm....The race restriction actually INCREASES the chance of having a darkvision race (considering core races only). The only other race with darkvision is the Dwarf, so you're going from a 2 in 7 chance to a 1 in 3.
That being said, does low-light vision apply here at all? If my torch illuminates 5', does that mean that low-light races can see 10' (dim light)?
Poor Humans...They've got it so rough.
We can get this at level 2. Here's the process:
Lv.1 Human Maneuver Master Monk
At this point, your full attack consists of 1 attack and 1 maneuver. However, you can substitute a Trip maneuver for that attack. When you successfully trip, you can initiate a grapple as a swift action. Since you've still got the additional maneuver from Flurry of maneuvers, you can make another grapple check (with the +4 from the enemy being prone)
as Far as Flanking/adjacent, the question is improperly worded. While you do not need to be adjacent, you DO need to THREATEN. This is kind of important, as you're other questions mention a PC with reach.
I'm a big fan of the deity Erastil. Community domain is great for removing fatigue (downside is that it takes a standard action), Plant (Growth) subdomain is AMAZING. Swift action Enlarge Person? Yes, please. Alternatively, Animal domain and Boon Companion is pretty strong combo.
Hey, everyone. Thanks you all for the quick responses!
@ N. Jolly
@ Dave Justus
I'm having an issue in a home campaign. I've got a 1/2 Orc Bard with a solid chassis, but I'm stretched pretty thin.
Str 16 +2 racial
So, I'm pretty pleased; I should be able to make basically anything. I could even have chosen to play a Monk! (Core APG and Unchained books are what's allowed) However, the other 3 players are:
So, being the last one to join, I figured that I'd just fill in where ever needed...However, it seems like there is quite a bit that is needed. That Paladin switch might help out in the healing dept. later on, but right now it's just me and my 2 spells per day (I took CLW and Grease). I didn't really know what else to do, so I just grabbed Combat Reflexes as my feat, and now we're off!
Ah, this thread. It's been a long time, old friend.
I'm just going to put out this sample build...
1/2 Elf unchained Rogue 4
Str: who cares?
Weapon - Elven Branched Spear (Fortuitous when you get the cash)
Rogue Talents - Minor Magic: Acid Splash, Major Magic: Grease
Strategy: You're all about offensive defense. You ready an action to cast grease when the enemy moves to within 10 ft. Whether they make their save or not matters little. The area in front of you is now difficult terrain. But, even better, when they move through the grease, they use acrobatics, meaning that they are denied their Dex. Happy sneak attacking! Keep readying actions to attack when they move closer to you.
Hmmmm... Hit points, better attack and damage, not much loss of skill points....Sounds like you want an Unchained Barbarian. Grab 2 levels for Beast Totem, so you'll still have your claws. Take Extra Rage if you intend to go Slayer the rest of the way, otherwise dip 1 level of Unchained Rogue for Finesse and Sneak Attack, then take Accomplished Sneak attacker. Continue the Barbarian path until you get Greater Beast Totem and Greater Rage. Also, enjoy your DR/- and temporary hit points while raging. If you can get the Amulet of Mighty fists, that's great. Agile is really nice. Also look into Vicious.
Swashbuckler 1 and Combat Reflexes make a very nice low-cost layered defense. You can look into the Mobility feat (requires 13+ Dex and Dodge feat) to boost AC against AoOs.
You can also go Monk, as was already suggested, to use Dex and Wis for AC (helps with saves, too). Master of Many Styles is a favorite way to get all of those nice style feats that either boost AC or use AoOs rather well. Panther and Snake are nice styles, I'm sure there are plenty of others, too.
Yeah, the only reason that I was picking up Combat expertise and the 13 INT required for it was that it's a prereq for Pack Flanking....And I just realized that I wouldn't get Outflank as a bonus feat because I'm an INQUISITOR not a HUNTER. D'oh! Looks like Pack Attack is just as good!
So, for the stat array, are you basically just suggesting that I drop INT to 10 and pump CON to 14?
On the plus side, my GM says that the Inspired Rage from the Skald counts as a "rage class feature." So I could take another Domain/Inquisition if I was so inclined. Or would you recommend sticking with Anger to get a better rage?
Don't forget the Dodge feat as well...the tradeoff IS better with Crane Style, but it's got too many requirements for my liking. With Combat Expertise you at least open up decent feat chains/additional options.
I'm looking at joining a RoW game in a month or so... The character concept that I'm wanting to play is a 1/2 Orc Skald who later goes into Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor at level 5. It's 20 pt. buy, 1 campaign trait, 1 other trait.
I'm thinking about:
Str 15 (+2)
Does this sound reasonable? Am I forgetting something important? Any other considerations? Thanks in advance!
Wow, this thread is back! In POG form!
Seriously, the answer to the question posed by the OP has the same answer in this thread as it did in the previous ones....Flanking requires only what it is stated to require. Awareness doesn't enter into it.
This was a 2 post thread.
Unbreakable Fighter 1 / Invulnerable Rager X
Take Combat Expertise at level 1 or 3. Pick up Stalwart at 5 (that's the feat that turns dodge bonuses into DR/- that stacks.) For extra fun, the Dragon Totem line of rage powers grants bonus stackable DR/-. At level 11, go ahead and upgrade to Improved Stalwart. Enjoy having DR/- that equals or exceeds your character level.
For bonus points, pick up a vicious weapon - you weren't using those d12 HP for anything else anyway.
So, on a somewhat related topic: I'm sure we've all heard about (or used) Heighten Spell on a Continual Flame to overcome (Deeper) Darkness spells....But can Shadow Evocation also mimic Continual Flame as a 5th level spell? Is that legit?
I'm currently playing a whirlwind tripper with a whip. It's pretty damn sweet. Only problem is it's INCREDIBLY feat intensive. I went with 1/2 Orc for the City-Raised and Toothy alternate traits, so that I can still threaten early game. I took a single level in Druid with the Plant(Growth) subdomain. This could easily be swapped for Cleric or Inquisitor, I just chose druid for flavor. Anyway, the rest of his levels have been in Fighter with the Lore Warden archetype.
This guy is fantastic at crowd control, but he can't really capitalize on it, as he lacks Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. He's Str-based so that I don't have to worry about Weapon Finesse, plus it's got synergy with Enlarge Person.
If you're looking at Bloodrager, you might consider the Primalist archetype. Abyssal bloodline gets you claws and Demonic Bulk (which is just great!), then grab Fiend Totem (Lesser) and another really nice rage power of your choice at level 8. You might not get pounce, but you do get another primary natural attack (and a pretty darn good one at that), plus spells, full rage, and free enlarge person. It's pretty tasty.
If you stick with Barbarian, invest in a Vicious Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Pounce at lv.4? how is that? They get style strike at 5th, right? I mean, I'm presuming that you're talking about Flying Kick....Which is basically an extra 5 foot step at 5th level, and only really becomes useful at 6th.