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FullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 679 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 8 Pathfinder Society characters.


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as Far as Flanking/adjacent, the question is improperly worded. While you do not need to be adjacent, you DO need to THREATEN. This is kind of important, as you're other questions mention a PC with reach.
Example: 2 PCs are in a 5 foot wide corridor, a Rogue in front, and his Bard friend right behind him wielding a longspear. Suddenly, An Orc charges the rogue in the surprise round! Everyone rolls initiative; the Bard goes first, then the Rogue, and last the Orc. The Bard readies an action to trip the orc when the Rogue gets into flanking position, and ends his turn. The Rogue successfully uses acrobatics to tumble through the Orc's square at CMD + 5. The rogue and Bard are now flanking the Orc, even though the Bard is not adjacent. The Bard will now attempt to trip the Orc with his readied action at a +2 for flanking, rather than a -4 for soft cover from an ally. Once the Bard uses his action, the Rogue can now sneak attack the (possibly prone) Orc.

I'm a big fan of the deity Erastil. Community domain is great for removing fatigue (downside is that it takes a standard action), Plant (Growth) subdomain is AMAZING. Swift action Enlarge Person? Yes, please. Alternatively, Animal domain and Boon Companion is pretty strong combo.

Just hit Lv.2 tonight, went with the Arcane Healer archetype. So far, so good...Thanks for the help!

Hey, everyone. Thanks you all for the quick responses!

@ N. Jolly
That's kind of what I thought initially. Inspire Courage is pretty straightforward; throw in a couple of additional buffs and I can get a Ron Popeil endorsement.

@ Azten
Which archetype is that? It sounds pretty good, but of course, it makes me wonder what the tradeoff is... If it's from one of the more recent books, the GM will likely be unfamiliar with it, and we're kind of limited in books, as both the Ranger and the Rogue players are brand-new to Pathfinder. But it certainly doesn't hurt to ask ;)

@ Smallfoot
Yeah, I have no real clue what the availability of magical gear will be. I'm considering taking some crafting feats, just so that I will be absolutely sure that everyone will have access to the essentials. Of course, this is a down-the-line prospect.

@ Dave Justus
While I know that archery is considered to be one of the more powerful approaches to combat, it's also very feat intensive. I'm not quite sold on the viability of becoming a competent archer. If there is a way to make it work, it certainly has appeal.
I'm totally with you on the whole in-combat-healing-is-a-waste-of-time thing. So, what does the cleric do for battlefield control? What would his plan of action be at low levels (specifically 1 and 2)?

@ Jodokai
Oh, I'm sure that he'll focus primarily on archery. I think that Power Attack and a Greatsword will be the extent of his switch-hitting. Of course, I have no idea how long it takes to level up in this campaign (I'm used to PFS, where it's super easy to see where you should be at any given point)

I'm having an issue in a home campaign. I've got a 1/2 Orc Bard with a solid chassis, but I'm stretched pretty thin.
Stat generation method was roll 4d6, drop the lowest, assign in any order. I got:

Str 16 +2 racial
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 9
Cha 16

So, I'm pretty pleased; I should be able to make basically anything. I could even have chosen to play a Monk! (Core APG and Unchained books are what's allowed) However, the other 3 players are:
1) Switch hitter Ranger
2) Unchained Rogue
3) Cavalier (although this will be switched to Paladin)

So, being the last one to join, I figured that I'd just fill in where ever needed...However, it seems like there is quite a bit that is needed. That Paladin switch might help out in the healing dept. later on, but right now it's just me and my 2 spells per day (I took CLW and Grease). I didn't really know what else to do, so I just grabbed Combat Reflexes as my feat, and now we're off!
I just feel like this character is trying to cover too many bases at once. He's got a great stat array, but I feel like he's the weakest character at the table. I'm pretty sure that I can get him changed up for next session, but what do I change him into? Or is he actually solid, and I'll see major improvement once we get some gold? Where do I go from here?

Warpriest gets sacred weapon right from level 1. While not technically a static increase, you do get larger scaling damage dice.

Oh, cool, I wasn't aware of that feat. Sounds like a winner.

Ah, this thread. It's been a long time, old friend.

I'm just going to put out this sample build...

1/2 Elf unchained Rogue 4

Str: who cares?
Dex: a truckload
Con: some
Int: 13+
Wis: some
Cha: who cares?

Weapon - Elven Branched Spear (Fortuitous when you get the cash)
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise (or whatever, really)
Later on, we'll pick up Lunge, Improved Trip and Greater Trip.

Rogue Talents - Minor Magic: Acid Splash, Major Magic: Grease

Strategy: You're all about offensive defense. You ready an action to cast grease when the enemy moves to within 10 ft. Whether they make their save or not matters little. The area in front of you is now difficult terrain. But, even better, when they move through the grease, they use acrobatics, meaning that they are denied their Dex. Happy sneak attacking! Keep readying actions to attack when they move closer to you.
Assuming that you actually do trip them to start with, which is pretty likely, given the +2 from Elven Branched Spear and the Dex denial, you'll keep your foes locked down very well. Subsequent rounds are even tastier, since you get to tack on Debilitating Injury. When you're not getting sneak attack damage, you're still getting Dex-and-a-half damage at a +4 to hit (at least), as they are prone.

Hmmmm... Hit points, better attack and damage, not much loss of skill points....Sounds like you want an Unchained Barbarian. Grab 2 levels for Beast Totem, so you'll still have your claws. Take Extra Rage if you intend to go Slayer the rest of the way, otherwise dip 1 level of Unchained Rogue for Finesse and Sneak Attack, then take Accomplished Sneak attacker. Continue the Barbarian path until you get Greater Beast Totem and Greater Rage. Also, enjoy your DR/- and temporary hit points while raging. If you can get the Amulet of Mighty fists, that's great. Agile is really nice. Also look into Vicious.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

This is what the Scar hex is for.

I'm none too clear on the tie-up portion of the grapple rules (is anyone really?), and I would love some clarification there as well.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Defender of the Society trait for +1 AC in Medium or Heavy armor.

Swashbuckler 1 and Combat Reflexes make a very nice low-cost layered defense. You can look into the Mobility feat (requires 13+ Dex and Dodge feat) to boost AC against AoOs.

You can also go Monk, as was already suggested, to use Dex and Wis for AC (helps with saves, too). Master of Many Styles is a favorite way to get all of those nice style feats that either boost AC or use AoOs rather well. Panther and Snake are nice styles, I'm sure there are plenty of others, too.

Yeah, the only reason that I was picking up Combat expertise and the 13 INT required for it was that it's a prereq for Pack Flanking....And I just realized that I wouldn't get Outflank as a bonus feat because I'm an INQUISITOR not a HUNTER. D'oh! Looks like Pack Attack is just as good!

So, for the stat array, are you basically just suggesting that I drop INT to 10 and pump CON to 14?

On the plus side, my GM says that the Inspired Rage from the Skald counts as a "rage class feature." So I could take another Domain/Inquisition if I was so inclined. Or would you recommend sticking with Anger to get a better rage?

Don't forget the Dodge feat as well...the tradeoff IS better with Crane Style, but it's got too many requirements for my liking. With Combat Expertise you at least open up decent feat chains/additional options.

I'm looking at joining a RoW game in a month or so... The character concept that I'm wanting to play is a 1/2 Orc Skald who later goes into Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor at level 5. It's 20 pt. buy, 1 campaign trait, 1 other trait.

I'm thinking about:

Str 15 (+2)
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 13

Alternate Racial:
City Raised
Shaman's Apprentice
Toothy or Sacred Tattoo - I'm favoring the Tattoo right now.

Failed Winter Witch Apprentice
Community Minded

1) Skald's Vigor, Bonus: Scribe Scroll
3) Combat Expertise
5) Boon Companion
6) Bonus: Outflank
7) Pack Flanking, Bonus: Amplified Rage
9) Diehard???
10) Bonus: Precise Strike???
11) Stalwart???

Does this sound reasonable? Am I forgetting something important? Any other considerations? Thanks in advance!

Wow, this thread is back! In POG form!

Seriously, the answer to the question posed by the OP has the same answer in this thread as it did in the previous ones....Flanking requires only what it is stated to require. Awareness doesn't enter into it.

This was a 2 post thread.
Post 1: Hey, do they flank?
Post 2: Yes they do.

Unbreakable Fighter 1 / Invulnerable Rager X

Take Combat Expertise at level 1 or 3. Pick up Stalwart at 5 (that's the feat that turns dodge bonuses into DR/- that stacks.) For extra fun, the Dragon Totem line of rage powers grants bonus stackable DR/-. At level 11, go ahead and upgrade to Improved Stalwart. Enjoy having DR/- that equals or exceeds your character level.

For bonus points, pick up a vicious weapon - you weren't using those d12 HP for anything else anyway.

So, on a somewhat related topic: I'm sure we've all heard about (or used) Heighten Spell on a Continual Flame to overcome (Deeper) Darkness spells....But can Shadow Evocation also mimic Continual Flame as a 5th level spell? Is that legit?

I'm currently playing a whirlwind tripper with a whip. It's pretty damn sweet. Only problem is it's INCREDIBLY feat intensive. I went with 1/2 Orc for the City-Raised and Toothy alternate traits, so that I can still threaten early game. I took a single level in Druid with the Plant(Growth) subdomain. This could easily be swapped for Cleric or Inquisitor, I just chose druid for flavor. Anyway, the rest of his levels have been in Fighter with the Lore Warden archetype.

Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Whirlwind Attack
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Weapon Focus: Whip
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Greater Whip Mastery

This guy is fantastic at crowd control, but he can't really capitalize on it, as he lacks Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. He's Str-based so that I don't have to worry about Weapon Finesse, plus it's got synergy with Enlarge Person.

Only when swinging across a 10ft. pit on a scorpion whip.

If you're looking at Bloodrager, you might consider the Primalist archetype. Abyssal bloodline gets you claws and Demonic Bulk (which is just great!), then grab Fiend Totem (Lesser) and another really nice rage power of your choice at level 8. You might not get pounce, but you do get another primary natural attack (and a pretty darn good one at that), plus spells, full rage, and free enlarge person. It's pretty tasty.

If you stick with Barbarian, invest in a Vicious Amulet of Mighty Fists.
If DR is your big thing, invest in Diehard, Stalwart, and Combat Expertise. You can pick up Endurance through an alternate racial trait (Shaman's Apprentice, I think).

Pounce at lv.4? how is that? They get style strike at 5th, right? I mean, I'm presuming that you're talking about Flying Kick....Which is basically an extra 5 foot step at 5th level, and only really becomes useful at 6th.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm just interested in how my twink build can get some additional modifiers...Circum-Size bonus, anyone?

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Perhaps I've missed an FAQ or Blog post, but how exactly does Slashing Grace prohibit full Dex damage on off-hand attacks?

Also, the whole "all Dex-to-damage options preclude 1.5x on THF!" argument is pretty bogus, since ALL of the feats that allow it deny ANY Dex-to-damage on THF. The only other way that I'm aware of is the Agile weapon property, which specifically states that THF gets 1x dex.

So, the only precedent for getting Dex-to-damage AT ALL with THF is the Agile weapon property from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. That's a pretty flimsy basis.

The real question that we should be asking is why on Golarion would they bother to take up extra word count in Fencing Grace by including the line "when wielding a rapier one handed..."
Who THFs with a rapier?

@ Onyxlion

Right here

A wand of Protection From Evil (regular or communal) should serve you well. Bonuses to saves, immunity to charm/compulsion, and the ability to walk right past summoned creatures is very nice indeed.

@ Michael Hallet

The problem with this interpretation is it's scope. So, you're saying that the Str mod to damage gets multiplied....What happens if your wizard friend cast Bull's Strength? Sure, it's "Your Str mod", but you don't usually have Bull's Strength. Yet, it still multiplies.

It doesn't really matter WHERE the bonuses come from, the fact that you are taking advantage of them is what counts. The quibble over the "usual" designator is kind of fallacious as well. When I use a Flaming sword, I "usually" get +1d6 of fire damage added to my attacks, but it ceretainly doesn't apply on crits. If you're traveling with a Bard, they would "usually" start Inspiring Courage when a battle starts, wouldn't they?

Bonus damage of most types (Str, morale, luck, competence, etc.) will be multiplied on a critical hit. Types of damage that DON'T get multiplied will be explicitly called out as such, the 2 most common being extra dice and precision damage.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I prefer "save or lose" to mean what Inigo Montoya Kobold Cleaver uses "save or suck" for.

"Save or suck" is least bad (weakest) of the "save or ____" line.

There are typically 4 save types:
Save or die (actual death! Phantasmal Killer is the earliest this really becomes a term.)
Save or lose (this happens from level 1, as previously mentioned Sleep, Color Spray, etc.)
Save or suck (again, level 1 entry)
Finally, save for half (This one has no special "save or ____" entry. It's usually just elemental damage.)

Wait, wait, wait....the Slayer has a problem? Seriously? Is it a case of "too much buffet, not enough plates..."???

For [insert deity of your choice here]'s sake, they won't let the NINJA get the Unchained goodies, why would they possibly hand them out to an entirely separate class?

If you want your Slayer to have the Unchained Rogue's Finesse stuff, then just take 3 levels in Unchained Rogue! Welcome to multiclassing!

My favorite part is where Unchained Monks get Flawless Mind "for free, they don't have to select it!" as a class 19th level.

@ DinosaursOnIce

The Unchained Rogue's Debilitating Injury starts at -4 at 4th level (pretty significant, I feel), then advances at 10th and 16th level, effectively granting accuracy within one point of full BAB (with a +2, or better, cherry on top). However, the effects only last for one round, with further instances of Sneak Attack extending the duration by 1 round each.

Of course, with the new Unchained Rogue, who's NOT going to TWF? Especially with Kukris and the Knifemaster Archetype. That 1 round duration will likely be extended indefinitely.

Yep, called it.

...You haven't seen the last of Barbados Slim! Now, goodbye forever!

Also, trading insult-laden barbs (however well-deserved) will likely just get your posts flagged.
That being said, +2 is generally considered to be about 10% of a d20. Having that as a bonus sounds pretty good indeed. Having as a penalty is pretty bad. Having the ability to apply it to my meat-and-potatoes is gravy.

@ Mark Seifter

In your post (other thread) referencing the APG's text on archetypes, I was initially confused, as it talks about "alternate class features"....It's yet another one of those things that is misleading because of the same word/phrase being something distinct in official rules jargon while being used as descriptive text explaining something (possibly) unrelated. I, at first, read "(alternate class) features", as opposed to "alternate (class features)"... If only grammar and syntax could be as simple as mathematical equations!

Also, I completely agree with your assessment, though it does make me wonder why John Compton states unequivocally that there is "No Unchained Ninja" in PFS. Don't get me wrong, if that's the way that PFS is, that's fine, it just struck me as "of course it's this way!" kneejerk response type thing. Like it was accidentally omitted from the Core rulebook blog post; usually there's some sort of explanation/background on PFS legal rulings.

On an unrelated note, I am really enjoying the frequency with which you post and the tone used when you do so. It makes me feel like you care. Keep up the good work!


@ Long-staff

Holy thread necro, Batman!
This issue was addressed in the FAQ about 6 months ago. Yes, you can use Grab if your AoO hits. Similarly, the Trip, Push, Pull, and Rock-Catching abilities can be used when it is not your turn. Of course, the relevant attack still has to hit.


Agreed. Simple questions/answers are likely the best bets. It's just unfortunate that the Scorpion Whip is so ambiguous.

Yeah, I thought 118 was bigger than 74, but I'm thinking that more people PROBABLY want to take 10 on knowledge checks than want to use scorpion whips. Personally, I want to do both, but still...

@ Lone Knave

I am unaware of the 3.5 version.

All I have is Paizo material.

Grease (official):
PRD Home / Spell Index / Grease wrote:


School conjuration (creation); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (butter)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one object or 10-ft. square

Duration 1 min./level (D)

Save see text; SR no

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.

The last line indicates to me that they are indeed flat-footed when they use Acrobatics (to move at half speed without falling prone) to move within or through a Greased area. Another bonus is that they have to make ANOTHER Acrobatics check if they take damage while moving, or fall prone.

But, perhaps I'm reading it wrong?

I suspect that if Iomedae is watching, she's probably less than pleased. Ragathiel would be highly intrigued however, as this is totally the sort of thing he'd take a personal interest in.

Grease + Longspear = No enemy movement.
March up to the enemy, staying 10 feet away (or back up 5 feet from the enemy if they have already advanced on you) and cast Grease on the 10 foot square directly in front of you. With luck (Archaeologist's or otherwise) they'll fail their Reflex save. Even if they DON'T you've still set up the battlefield significantly in your favor. When they stand up, they provoke and burn a move action. When they advance on you, they become FLAT FOOTED (using acrobatics to move through the Grease), provoke, and burn a move action. If you can afford Combat Reflexes, this is gravy. When they move toward you, use your AoO to trip them. They just lost their entire turn, while you got to hit them for free, and even got a bonus on your attack.

Then the next turn rolls around, and you get to full attack them.
And the cycle repeats.

Of course, this will only work on things that you actually CAN trip, and don't also have reach, i.e. humanoids. The idea is solid, but you likely won't have the attack bonus necessary to consistently pull it off at higher levels. But hey, at least you'll stop the enemy from charging you, and you'll still get at least one or two AoOs, plus they'll be flat footed, and we're only talking about a level 1 spell.

So, what I'm saying is: even if the save is low, your spells are still plenty effective. Don't think of them as offensive spells, think of them as circumstance alterations that have a chance to create an Extra, bonus effect.

A Magus may be well served by picking up the Wand Wielder Arcana to use Blistering Invective with Spell Combat. Makes for pretty decent action economy.


That's still 23 points...?
And you're going to drop Cha by 1 to raise Dex by 1, that's cool. But...where are the 3 extra points coming from?

Cover prevents AoOs. Even soft cover.

Just to be safe, the Cleric probably should have cast before moving, but that's just SOP.

So, the point buy was:
10 for 16+2 racial = 18
2 for 12
10 for 16
0 for 10
2 for 12-2 racial = 10
-1 for 9+2 racial = 11

Do I have that right?

Glad to see that you're getting some extra Dex. A +3 modifier by midlevels should be good.

@ Kestral

Exactly. That's why I was dissatisfied with the answer. I can accept an answer of "No, and here's why (insert logical explanation)", or "Yes, it does not conflict with the rules" but getting an off-topic answer was pretty frustrating.

How about a Toothy 1/2 Orc Urban Barbarian with the Fiend Totem (Lesser) rage power?

The last time I asked this question, I got the "Tricky thinking TWF" answer.

@ Helcack

You do realize that you only gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC once per round, right? This is supported a couple of ways.
1) The feat says "equal to or greater than..."
2) Bonuses from the same or similar source do not stack.

I strongly favor Bloody Minded and Highlander.

With a lower Dex and Cha, Bloody Minded helps in areas that the Barbarian is weak, so it's a solid pick.

Highlander is just thematically cool. Plus, and this is personal pet peeve of mine, whenever the group as a whole needs to sneak in, there's ALWAYS one guy who is wearing heavy armor, has low Dex, and didn't invest in stealth at all. Don't be that guy. This trait is effectively better than a feat (Skill Focus doesn't get you a +4!) and requires only minimal investment to pay off. One single rank in Stealth gets a +8 modifier. It's really not bad at all.

Other thing: you may want to consider boosting that Dex.... And by more than just 1 point. Enlarge Person is a perennial favorite of Barbarians everywhere and is available as a serious buff from level 1. If your Dex mod is 0, having Combat Reflexes is pretty pointless. Plus, there's all the other benefits of having a decent Dex: AC, ranged attacks, reflex saves, etc.

That being said, is that a 23 point build? I'm not familiar with the AP's character creation guidelines, so that may be intentional, but it's not a standard point buy. Unless, of course, those stats are pre-racial, in which case it's 30 points?

Realistically, being a Bladebound Magus saves you 8k and costs an Arcana and an Arcane point-and-a-half. The vast majority of your play will be very minimally affected by the loss of the Arcane point. Until lv.4, there is NO DIFFERENCE in your Arcane pool points. From 4 onward, you're down 1 point, until lv.8, when it's 2, then 1 again at 9, then back to 2 at lv.10.

The GP cost savings are 2k at lv.3, 8k at lv.5, and 18k at lv.9.

The sad truth is that you're likely not going to care about having more than a +1 on your weapon. Most Magi will be more than satisfied by spending 11k on an Adamantine +1 keen weapon. They will start with just the +1 Adamantine for 5k, and when lv.5 rolls around, they use their arcane pool to enhance it with keen and another +1 ability, just the same as the Bladebound. The difference is that the Bladebound has +1 attack and damage, while the vanilla magus can bypass hardness. Sure, maybe the Bladebound has another cool magic item (jingasa of the fortunate soldier, maybe?), but the vanilla Magus has +4 initiative from his familiar, or Arcane Accuracy, or even, yes, Wand Wielder.

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