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Pathfinder Society Member. 667 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 8 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Swashbuckler 1 and Combat Reflexes make a very nice low-cost layered defense. You can look into the Mobility feat (requires 13+ Dex and Dodge feat) to boost AC against AoOs.

You can also go Monk, as was already suggested, to use Dex and Wis for AC (helps with saves, too). Master of Many Styles is a favorite way to get all of those nice style feats that either boost AC or use AoOs rather well. Panther and Snake are nice styles, I'm sure there are plenty of others, too.

Yeah, the only reason that I was picking up Combat expertise and the 13 INT required for it was that it's a prereq for Pack Flanking....And I just realized that I wouldn't get Outflank as a bonus feat because I'm an INQUISITOR not a HUNTER. D'oh! Looks like Pack Attack is just as good!

So, for the stat array, are you basically just suggesting that I drop INT to 10 and pump CON to 14?

On the plus side, my GM says that the Inspired Rage from the Skald counts as a "rage class feature." So I could take another Domain/Inquisition if I was so inclined. Or would you recommend sticking with Anger to get a better rage?

Don't forget the Dodge feat as well...the tradeoff IS better with Crane Style, but it's got too many requirements for my liking. With Combat Expertise you at least open up decent feat chains/additional options.

I'm looking at joining a RoW game in a month or so... The character concept that I'm wanting to play is a 1/2 Orc Skald who later goes into Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor at level 5. It's 20 pt. buy, 1 campaign trait, 1 other trait.

I'm thinking about:

Str 15 (+2)
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 13

Alternate Racial:
City Raised
Shaman's Apprentice
Toothy or Sacred Tattoo - I'm favoring the Tattoo right now.

Failed Winter Witch Apprentice
Community Minded

1) Skald's Vigor, Bonus: Scribe Scroll
3) Combat Expertise
5) Boon Companion
6) Bonus: Outflank
7) Pack Flanking, Bonus: Amplified Rage
9) Diehard???
10) Bonus: Precise Strike???
11) Stalwart???

Does this sound reasonable? Am I forgetting something important? Any other considerations? Thanks in advance!

Wow, this thread is back! In POG form!

Seriously, the answer to the question posed by the OP has the same answer in this thread as it did in the previous ones....Flanking requires only what it is stated to require. Awareness doesn't enter into it.

This was a 2 post thread.
Post 1: Hey, do they flank?
Post 2: Yes they do.

Unbreakable Fighter 1 / Invulnerable Rager X

Take Combat Expertise at level 1 or 3. Pick up Stalwart at 5 (that's the feat that turns dodge bonuses into DR/- that stacks.) For extra fun, the Dragon Totem line of rage powers grants bonus stackable DR/-. At level 11, go ahead and upgrade to Improved Stalwart. Enjoy having DR/- that equals or exceeds your character level.

For bonus points, pick up a vicious weapon - you weren't using those d12 HP for anything else anyway.

So, on a somewhat related topic: I'm sure we've all heard about (or used) Heighten Spell on a Continual Flame to overcome (Deeper) Darkness spells....But can Shadow Evocation also mimic Continual Flame as a 5th level spell? Is that legit?

I'm currently playing a whirlwind tripper with a whip. It's pretty damn sweet. Only problem is it's INCREDIBLY feat intensive. I went with 1/2 Orc for the City-Raised and Toothy alternate traits, so that I can still threaten early game. I took a single level in Druid with the Plant(Growth) subdomain. This could easily be swapped for Cleric or Inquisitor, I just chose druid for flavor. Anyway, the rest of his levels have been in Fighter with the Lore Warden archetype.

Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Whirlwind Attack
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Weapon Focus: Whip
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Greater Whip Mastery

This guy is fantastic at crowd control, but he can't really capitalize on it, as he lacks Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. He's Str-based so that I don't have to worry about Weapon Finesse, plus it's got synergy with Enlarge Person.

Only when swinging across a 10ft. pit on a scorpion whip.

If you're looking at Bloodrager, you might consider the Primalist archetype. Abyssal bloodline gets you claws and Demonic Bulk (which is just great!), then grab Fiend Totem (Lesser) and another really nice rage power of your choice at level 8. You might not get pounce, but you do get another primary natural attack (and a pretty darn good one at that), plus spells, full rage, and free enlarge person. It's pretty tasty.

If you stick with Barbarian, invest in a Vicious Amulet of Mighty Fists.
If DR is your big thing, invest in Diehard, Stalwart, and Combat Expertise. You can pick up Endurance through an alternate racial trait (Shaman's Apprentice, I think).

Pounce at lv.4? how is that? They get style strike at 5th, right? I mean, I'm presuming that you're talking about Flying Kick....Which is basically an extra 5 foot step at 5th level, and only really becomes useful at 6th.

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I'm just interested in how my twink build can get some additional modifiers...Circum-Size bonus, anyone?

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Perhaps I've missed an FAQ or Blog post, but how exactly does Slashing Grace prohibit full Dex damage on off-hand attacks?

Also, the whole "all Dex-to-damage options preclude 1.5x on THF!" argument is pretty bogus, since ALL of the feats that allow it deny ANY Dex-to-damage on THF. The only other way that I'm aware of is the Agile weapon property, which specifically states that THF gets 1x dex.

So, the only precedent for getting Dex-to-damage AT ALL with THF is the Agile weapon property from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. That's a pretty flimsy basis.

The real question that we should be asking is why on Golarion would they bother to take up extra word count in Fencing Grace by including the line "when wielding a rapier one handed..."
Who THFs with a rapier?

@ Onyxlion

Right here

A wand of Protection From Evil (regular or communal) should serve you well. Bonuses to saves, immunity to charm/compulsion, and the ability to walk right past summoned creatures is very nice indeed.

@ Michael Hallet

The problem with this interpretation is it's scope. So, you're saying that the Str mod to damage gets multiplied....What happens if your wizard friend cast Bull's Strength? Sure, it's "Your Str mod", but you don't usually have Bull's Strength. Yet, it still multiplies.

It doesn't really matter WHERE the bonuses come from, the fact that you are taking advantage of them is what counts. The quibble over the "usual" designator is kind of fallacious as well. When I use a Flaming sword, I "usually" get +1d6 of fire damage added to my attacks, but it ceretainly doesn't apply on crits. If you're traveling with a Bard, they would "usually" start Inspiring Courage when a battle starts, wouldn't they?

Bonus damage of most types (Str, morale, luck, competence, etc.) will be multiplied on a critical hit. Types of damage that DON'T get multiplied will be explicitly called out as such, the 2 most common being extra dice and precision damage.

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I prefer "save or lose" to mean what Inigo Montoya Kobold Cleaver uses "save or suck" for.

"Save or suck" is least bad (weakest) of the "save or ____" line.

There are typically 4 save types:
Save or die (actual death! Phantasmal Killer is the earliest this really becomes a term.)
Save or lose (this happens from level 1, as previously mentioned Sleep, Color Spray, etc.)
Save or suck (again, level 1 entry)
Finally, save for half (This one has no special "save or ____" entry. It's usually just elemental damage.)

Wait, wait, wait....the Slayer has a problem? Seriously? Is it a case of "too much buffet, not enough plates..."???

For [insert deity of your choice here]'s sake, they won't let the NINJA get the Unchained goodies, why would they possibly hand them out to an entirely separate class?

If you want your Slayer to have the Unchained Rogue's Finesse stuff, then just take 3 levels in Unchained Rogue! Welcome to multiclassing!

My favorite part is where Unchained Monks get Flawless Mind "for free, they don't have to select it!" as a class 19th level.

@ DinosaursOnIce

The Unchained Rogue's Debilitating Injury starts at -4 at 4th level (pretty significant, I feel), then advances at 10th and 16th level, effectively granting accuracy within one point of full BAB (with a +2, or better, cherry on top). However, the effects only last for one round, with further instances of Sneak Attack extending the duration by 1 round each.

Of course, with the new Unchained Rogue, who's NOT going to TWF? Especially with Kukris and the Knifemaster Archetype. That 1 round duration will likely be extended indefinitely.

Yep, called it.

...You haven't seen the last of Barbados Slim! Now, goodbye forever!

Also, trading insult-laden barbs (however well-deserved) will likely just get your posts flagged.
That being said, +2 is generally considered to be about 10% of a d20. Having that as a bonus sounds pretty good indeed. Having as a penalty is pretty bad. Having the ability to apply it to my meat-and-potatoes is gravy.

@ Mark Seifter

In your post (other thread) referencing the APG's text on archetypes, I was initially confused, as it talks about "alternate class features"....It's yet another one of those things that is misleading because of the same word/phrase being something distinct in official rules jargon while being used as descriptive text explaining something (possibly) unrelated. I, at first, read "(alternate class) features", as opposed to "alternate (class features)"... If only grammar and syntax could be as simple as mathematical equations!

Also, I completely agree with your assessment, though it does make me wonder why John Compton states unequivocally that there is "No Unchained Ninja" in PFS. Don't get me wrong, if that's the way that PFS is, that's fine, it just struck me as "of course it's this way!" kneejerk response type thing. Like it was accidentally omitted from the Core rulebook blog post; usually there's some sort of explanation/background on PFS legal rulings.

On an unrelated note, I am really enjoying the frequency with which you post and the tone used when you do so. It makes me feel like you care. Keep up the good work!


@ Long-staff

Holy thread necro, Batman!
This issue was addressed in the FAQ about 6 months ago. Yes, you can use Grab if your AoO hits. Similarly, the Trip, Push, Pull, and Rock-Catching abilities can be used when it is not your turn. Of course, the relevant attack still has to hit.


Agreed. Simple questions/answers are likely the best bets. It's just unfortunate that the Scorpion Whip is so ambiguous.

Yeah, I thought 118 was bigger than 74, but I'm thinking that more people PROBABLY want to take 10 on knowledge checks than want to use scorpion whips. Personally, I want to do both, but still...

@ Lone Knave

I am unaware of the 3.5 version.

All I have is Paizo material.

Grease (official):
PRD Home / Spell Index / Grease wrote:


School conjuration (creation); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (butter)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one object or 10-ft. square

Duration 1 min./level (D)

Save see text; SR no

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.

The last line indicates to me that they are indeed flat-footed when they use Acrobatics (to move at half speed without falling prone) to move within or through a Greased area. Another bonus is that they have to make ANOTHER Acrobatics check if they take damage while moving, or fall prone.

But, perhaps I'm reading it wrong?

I suspect that if Iomedae is watching, she's probably less than pleased. Ragathiel would be highly intrigued however, as this is totally the sort of thing he'd take a personal interest in.

Grease + Longspear = No enemy movement.
March up to the enemy, staying 10 feet away (or back up 5 feet from the enemy if they have already advanced on you) and cast Grease on the 10 foot square directly in front of you. With luck (Archaeologist's or otherwise) they'll fail their Reflex save. Even if they DON'T you've still set up the battlefield significantly in your favor. When they stand up, they provoke and burn a move action. When they advance on you, they become FLAT FOOTED (using acrobatics to move through the Grease), provoke, and burn a move action. If you can afford Combat Reflexes, this is gravy. When they move toward you, use your AoO to trip them. They just lost their entire turn, while you got to hit them for free, and even got a bonus on your attack.

Then the next turn rolls around, and you get to full attack them.
And the cycle repeats.

Of course, this will only work on things that you actually CAN trip, and don't also have reach, i.e. humanoids. The idea is solid, but you likely won't have the attack bonus necessary to consistently pull it off at higher levels. But hey, at least you'll stop the enemy from charging you, and you'll still get at least one or two AoOs, plus they'll be flat footed, and we're only talking about a level 1 spell.

So, what I'm saying is: even if the save is low, your spells are still plenty effective. Don't think of them as offensive spells, think of them as circumstance alterations that have a chance to create an Extra, bonus effect.

A Magus may be well served by picking up the Wand Wielder Arcana to use Blistering Invective with Spell Combat. Makes for pretty decent action economy.


That's still 23 points...?
And you're going to drop Cha by 1 to raise Dex by 1, that's cool. But...where are the 3 extra points coming from?

Cover prevents AoOs. Even soft cover.

Just to be safe, the Cleric probably should have cast before moving, but that's just SOP.

So, the point buy was:
10 for 16+2 racial = 18
2 for 12
10 for 16
0 for 10
2 for 12-2 racial = 10
-1 for 9+2 racial = 11

Do I have that right?

Glad to see that you're getting some extra Dex. A +3 modifier by midlevels should be good.

@ Kestral

Exactly. That's why I was dissatisfied with the answer. I can accept an answer of "No, and here's why (insert logical explanation)", or "Yes, it does not conflict with the rules" but getting an off-topic answer was pretty frustrating.

How about a Toothy 1/2 Orc Urban Barbarian with the Fiend Totem (Lesser) rage power?

The last time I asked this question, I got the "Tricky thinking TWF" answer.

@ Helcack

You do realize that you only gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC once per round, right? This is supported a couple of ways.
1) The feat says "equal to or greater than..."
2) Bonuses from the same or similar source do not stack.

I strongly favor Bloody Minded and Highlander.

With a lower Dex and Cha, Bloody Minded helps in areas that the Barbarian is weak, so it's a solid pick.

Highlander is just thematically cool. Plus, and this is personal pet peeve of mine, whenever the group as a whole needs to sneak in, there's ALWAYS one guy who is wearing heavy armor, has low Dex, and didn't invest in stealth at all. Don't be that guy. This trait is effectively better than a feat (Skill Focus doesn't get you a +4!) and requires only minimal investment to pay off. One single rank in Stealth gets a +8 modifier. It's really not bad at all.

Other thing: you may want to consider boosting that Dex.... And by more than just 1 point. Enlarge Person is a perennial favorite of Barbarians everywhere and is available as a serious buff from level 1. If your Dex mod is 0, having Combat Reflexes is pretty pointless. Plus, there's all the other benefits of having a decent Dex: AC, ranged attacks, reflex saves, etc.

That being said, is that a 23 point build? I'm not familiar with the AP's character creation guidelines, so that may be intentional, but it's not a standard point buy. Unless, of course, those stats are pre-racial, in which case it's 30 points?

Realistically, being a Bladebound Magus saves you 8k and costs an Arcana and an Arcane point-and-a-half. The vast majority of your play will be very minimally affected by the loss of the Arcane point. Until lv.4, there is NO DIFFERENCE in your Arcane pool points. From 4 onward, you're down 1 point, until lv.8, when it's 2, then 1 again at 9, then back to 2 at lv.10.

The GP cost savings are 2k at lv.3, 8k at lv.5, and 18k at lv.9.

The sad truth is that you're likely not going to care about having more than a +1 on your weapon. Most Magi will be more than satisfied by spending 11k on an Adamantine +1 keen weapon. They will start with just the +1 Adamantine for 5k, and when lv.5 rolls around, they use their arcane pool to enhance it with keen and another +1 ability, just the same as the Bladebound. The difference is that the Bladebound has +1 attack and damage, while the vanilla magus can bypass hardness. Sure, maybe the Bladebound has another cool magic item (jingasa of the fortunate soldier, maybe?), but the vanilla Magus has +4 initiative from his familiar, or Arcane Accuracy, or even, yes, Wand Wielder.

True, it doesn't have quite the same number of prereq feats as Whirlwind, but.... it's 2 racial feats + 2 combat feats,'s only 1 feat cheaper than Whirlwind. Also, if you're looking at getting Greater Trip (which the build is kind of predicated on), you're getting the 5th prereq feat for Whirlwind anyway (Combat Expertise). Also, Whirlwind is at your highest BAB, and doesn't require any particular attack to hit to keep attacking. And the whole Whirlwind chain is generally useful.

I guess that it's better for action economy, so that's something.

The real wrench in the plan is having a high enough Dex to actually MAKE all of those AoOs.

Sounds like you've got it right. Just about the only action they could perform WITHOUT provoking would be the Withdraw action. Of course, they've only got a single move's worth of speed left (since they stood up) and they're in difficult terrain, so they won't get far. Also, have your caster Enlarge you. Withdraw only stops the AoO on the FIRST 5 feet of movement.

@ Grijm

What does Cleaving Sweep have to do with any of this? It's basically Whirlwind Attack, but only with trips, different prereqs, and a much later entry. The only ways that cleave is related are that 1) it's a prereq and 2) both feats start with the same 5 letters.

You can ALWAYS substitute a trip (or disarm/sunder) maneuver for a melee attack.

Bob Bob Bob does raise good point though: maneuvers succeed, attacks hit. Since you make a maneuver IN PLACE OF an attack, it's iffy. However, to attempt a maneuver, you make an attack roll, so...??? I would personally allow it, but a generic PFS GM? That's an entirely different story.

@ Malag

With Whirlwind Attack, Greater Trip, Combat Reflexes, and an absurdly high Dex, he could in fact get 3 attacks per enemy within reach. 1 for Whirlwind, 1 for Greater Trip, and 1 for the little boy down the lane ...No, wait, I mean for flinching ....for standing from prone.

If you're using a reach weapon (of COURSE you are!), try setting up a Wombo Combo by having your Druid/Wizard/Magus friend cast Stone Call centered on you. Sure, you're eating their dust (and 2d6 points of damage), but all your enemies are in difficult terrain, so moving anywhere at all will provoke ANOTHER AoO, which you can then Greater Trip them with....

Enjoy your new-and-improved, 100% totally legal triplock (Now with AoOs!)

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@ UnArcaneElection

My 1e/2e lv.3 Paladin does not agree. The rogue is happily wheeling and dealing hundreds of gold (NOT electrum) at a shot, meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out how the hell I'm going to pay for the inn tonight.

62.)Odd numbers in stats actually mean something other than "oh, that's what I'll bump at lv. 4"

Yeah, my Lore Warden trip build uses Whirlwind Attack with Greater Trip and a whip. I also dipped a level to get the Plant(Growth) subdomain. It's pretty nasty when, at level 7, everything within a 30' burst is prone and provoking AoOs. However, the caveat with this guy is that I didn't take Combat Reflexes, so I only make 1 AoO per round. I usually just wait until someone stands up.

Funny thing is, he's level 9 now, and 8 of those levels are Fighter. In the last PFS scenario that I played him in, he didn't deal a single point of damage. I just played him like a controller Wizard, only I stood in the front.

Whipmaster? Ha! Grab Whirlwind Attack and come play with the big boys. When you're tripping everything in a 30' radius, not to mention making them provoke AoOs, it's like the more reliable version of Haste and Slow combined!

Seriously though, cool guide, I'm glad to see it!

I second the notion of Pearls of Power. They give you the flexibility of a Wizard and the spell slots of a Sorcerer!

@ Marcella

[snark=jk...but not really] You'll definitely want Trapspotter since it looks like you've already failed to find the trap in the "classes" section of the CRB...[/snark]

No, all derision aside, Rogues can be fun to play while being surprisingly effective. Don't let anyone discourage you from playing what you want to play. Many people WILL make derisive comments about "how bad the Rogue is..." and all that, but they will likely offer suggestions as to how be a more effective character while still retaining your Rogue flavor. If you do end up building, say, a Slayer, but you call yourself a Rogue, nobody is going to take issue with that.

That being said, several people have given good answers to your questions. Now here's my take:

1) Your HP will be low. This isn't really something that you can fix. It IS, however, something that that you can avoid dealing with. The 2 biggest threats to your HP are Attack rolls and Reflex saves. As a rogue, you are pretty much the undisputed master of making reflex saves. Even the people who say that Rogues are the worst at everything ever will grudgingly admit that, in this one particular instance, Rogues are actually pretty good.
However, that still dovetails in to the second part of our problem, and the second part of your question. Low AC. You're a Rogue, so you're limited to light armor. That is a bit of a handicap, but it can be worked around. Keep in mind exactly what proficiency actually means: when you are proficient with a weapon, armor, or shield you don't take penalties to your attack roll for using it. The penalty for non-proficiency with a weapon is a straight -4. The penalty for armor or shield use is equal to the Armor Check Penalty (ACP) of the armor or shield. This means that ANY shield made of Mithril will impart absolutely NO penalty. A +1 Mithral Heavy Shield will cost you 2020 GP and give you +3 AC. It is the absolute cheapest way to get a boost to your AC. Also consider buying Mithral Kikko armor. It is initially a little bit expensive at 4030 GP, but enchanting it will be cheaper than getting a similar armor bonus out of chain shirt, plus it's an "always available" item, so you don't need to have a high fame score, just the cash.
The third part of your defensive line is your saves. We've already established that your Reflex save is pure gold. However, your Fort and Will saves are not hot at all. As others have said, Fort means save-or-lose (or die), reflex means save for half damage (or none since you're a Rogue, yay!), and Will means save or kill your teammates (or lose, or die). The biggest problem facing you is that your ability scores that boost these saves will not be all that high. Sure, you might get a +2 in Wisdom (but it's probably only a +1), and your Con score is more than likely only 12 (another +1), so you're really dependent on that d20 roll. The easiest way to boost these saves is by taking a dip in a class that gets good Fort and Will saves. There are also feats (Great Fortitude and Iron Will) that help, and of course the ever-ubiquitous Cloak of Resistance (which you absolutely should buy, and at as high a level as you can afford! They're expensive, but still better than a Raise Dead and 2 Restorations) We will re-visit this topic later...

2) Yes.
After that wall of text response to your first question, I thought that brevity may indeed be the soul of wit. Just take Trapspotter. It's expected by your fellow Pathfinders and you will not regret taking it.

3) You should focus on being able to hit. Even with minimal investment into Int, you'll have more skill points than anybody else. Seriously, you just will.
As for archery vs. TWF, I'd just pick a style and stick with it. However, as many folks have said, it's very difficult to make full use of either style, as both are feat-intensive, require full attacks to use efficiently, and are notoriously bad at using with sneak attack. The exception to this is when you KNOW, absolutely beyond a doubt, that you will have a flanking partner ALL THE TIME, no exceptions, then TWF becomes decent.
The 2 biggest concerns are 1) getting sneak attack and 2) making contact. At the lower tiers of play, an unmodified d8 is lethal. hitting consistently is far more beneficial than hitting hard. If you're able to do both, that's great! But if you were to have to choose between accuracy and power, choose accuracy EVERY TIME. Pay no attention to the Power Attacking Barbarian, yes, I know he hits like a truck, but he's still more accurate than you, so don't be fooled by all the penalties to hit that he's willing to take!

4) No. Pure and simple. If you happen to have a decent Str score (at least a 14 or so), AND you get Martial proficiency for free, AND you have a really good Dex (which you probably will, after all), then sure use the Elven Curve Blade. But, honestly, you're not doing yourself any favors by spending a feat on just being able to use a weapon without a penalty.

5) As addressed in point 3, a bonus to attack will trump a bonus to damage every time. Until you're able to hit the enemy on a 5 or less, keep piling on to-hit bonuses instead of damage bonuses.

A couple of things to consider in addition to the questions asked here:
What kind of stat array are you looking at?
Are you interested in multiclassing at all?
Are you playing CORE, or are later books available?

If you're staying CORE, it's tougher, but still doable.
If you're open to multiclassing (even just a single level dip!), you can get some really good synergy, combat prowess, and most importantly, boosted defenses (especially saves!).
If you're sticking with Elf as your race (which I kind of presume), you'll just want to boost Dex, get as much Con as is reasonable (i.e. spend either 5 or 7 points to get a 12 or 13), put a couple of points into everything else (like literally 2 points).

A generic stat array might be:
Str 12 2 points
Dex 17 7 points
Con 12 5 points
Int 14 2 points
Wis 12 2 points
Cha 12 2 points

Of course, you may feel that you don't really need all those skill points, or perhaps you really want better social skills, so it's pretty easy to change it to your specific tastes.

Feel free to tell us exactly what you want to do, and we'll be more than happy to help. Happy gaming!

Yes! Yes! And then...

Well, you know...

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This notoriously chaste paladin's most famous adventure involved a group of his fellow knights on a quest given by his deity to recover a legendary artifact, said to hold the power of life itself.

@ Gisher

It's answered on page 3.

Good Call OlkSkoolRPG. He can easily have Stalwart in his earlier line of feats for an extra +5, getting a staggering DR 20/-

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