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So, on a somewhat related topic: I'm sure we've all heard about (or used) Heighten Spell on a Continual Flame to overcome (Deeper) Darkness spells....But can Shadow Evocation also mimic Continual Flame as a 5th level spell? Is that legit?
I'm currently playing a whirlwind tripper with a whip. It's pretty damn sweet. Only problem is it's INCREDIBLY feat intensive. I went with 1/2 Orc for the City-Raised and Toothy alternate traits, so that I can still threaten early game. I took a single level in Druid with the Plant(Growth) subdomain. This could easily be swapped for Cleric or Inquisitor, I just chose druid for flavor. Anyway, the rest of his levels have been in Fighter with the Lore Warden archetype.
This guy is fantastic at crowd control, but he can't really capitalize on it, as he lacks Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. He's Str-based so that I don't have to worry about Weapon Finesse, plus it's got synergy with Enlarge Person.
If you're looking at Bloodrager, you might consider the Primalist archetype. Abyssal bloodline gets you claws and Demonic Bulk (which is just great!), then grab Fiend Totem (Lesser) and another really nice rage power of your choice at level 8. You might not get pounce, but you do get another primary natural attack (and a pretty darn good one at that), plus spells, full rage, and free enlarge person. It's pretty tasty.
If you stick with Barbarian, invest in a Vicious Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Pounce at lv.4? how is that? They get style strike at 5th, right? I mean, I'm presuming that you're talking about Flying Kick....Which is basically an extra 5 foot step at 5th level, and only really becomes useful at 6th.
Perhaps I've missed an FAQ or Blog post, but how exactly does Slashing Grace prohibit full Dex damage on off-hand attacks?
Also, the whole "all Dex-to-damage options preclude 1.5x on THF!" argument is pretty bogus, since ALL of the feats that allow it deny ANY Dex-to-damage on THF. The only other way that I'm aware of is the Agile weapon property, which specifically states that THF gets 1x dex.
So, the only precedent for getting Dex-to-damage AT ALL with THF is the Agile weapon property from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. That's a pretty flimsy basis.
The real question that we should be asking is why on Golarion would they bother to take up extra word count in Fencing Grace by including the line "when wielding a rapier one handed..."
A wand of Protection From Evil (regular or communal) should serve you well. Bonuses to saves, immunity to charm/compulsion, and the ability to walk right past summoned creatures is very nice indeed.
@ Michael Hallet
The problem with this interpretation is it's scope. So, you're saying that the Str mod to damage gets multiplied....What happens if your wizard friend cast Bull's Strength? Sure, it's "Your Str mod", but you don't usually have Bull's Strength. Yet, it still multiplies.
It doesn't really matter WHERE the bonuses come from, the fact that you are taking advantage of them is what counts. The quibble over the "usual" designator is kind of fallacious as well. When I use a Flaming sword, I "usually" get +1d6 of fire damage added to my attacks, but it ceretainly doesn't apply on crits. If you're traveling with a Bard, they would "usually" start Inspiring Courage when a battle starts, wouldn't they?
Bonus damage of most types (Str, morale, luck, competence, etc.) will be multiplied on a critical hit. Types of damage that DON'T get multiplied will be explicitly called out as such, the 2 most common being extra dice and precision damage.
I prefer "save or lose" to mean what
"Save or suck" is least bad (weakest) of the "save or ____" line.
There are typically 4 save types:
Wait, wait, wait....the Slayer has a problem? Seriously? Is it a case of "too much buffet, not enough plates..."???
For [insert deity of your choice here]'s sake, they won't let the NINJA get the Unchained goodies, why would they possibly hand them out to an entirely separate class?
If you want your Slayer to have the Unchained Rogue's Finesse stuff, then just take 3 levels in Unchained Rogue! Welcome to multiclassing!
The Unchained Rogue's Debilitating Injury starts at -4 at 4th level (pretty significant, I feel), then advances at 10th and 16th level, effectively granting accuracy within one point of full BAB (with a +2, or better, cherry on top). However, the effects only last for one round, with further instances of Sneak Attack extending the duration by 1 round each.
Of course, with the new Unchained Rogue, who's NOT going to TWF? Especially with Kukris and the Knifemaster Archetype. That 1 round duration will likely be extended indefinitely.
...You haven't seen the last of Barbados Slim! Now, goodbye forever!
Also, trading insult-laden barbs (however well-deserved) will likely just get your posts flagged.
@ Mark Seifter
In your post (other thread) referencing the APG's text on archetypes, I was initially confused, as it talks about "alternate class features"....It's yet another one of those things that is misleading because of the same word/phrase being something distinct in official rules jargon while being used as descriptive text explaining something (possibly) unrelated. I, at first, read "(alternate class) features", as opposed to "alternate (class features)"... If only grammar and syntax could be as simple as mathematical equations!
Also, I completely agree with your assessment, though it does make me wonder why John Compton states unequivocally that there is "No Unchained Ninja" in PFS. Don't get me wrong, if that's the way that PFS is, that's fine, it just struck me as "of course it's this way!" kneejerk response type thing. Like it was accidentally omitted from the
On an unrelated note, I am really enjoying the frequency with which you post and the tone used when you do so. It makes me feel like you care. Keep up the good work!
Holy thread necro, Batman!
Yeah, I thought 118 was bigger than 74, but I'm thinking that more people PROBABLY want to take 10 on knowledge checks than want to use scorpion whips. Personally, I want to do both, but still...
@ Lone Knave
I am unaware of the 3.5 version.
All I have is Paizo material.
PRD Home / Spell Index / Grease wrote:
The last line indicates to me that they are indeed flat-footed when they use Acrobatics (to move at half speed without falling prone) to move within or through a Greased area. Another bonus is that they have to make ANOTHER Acrobatics check if they take damage while moving, or fall prone.
But, perhaps I'm reading it wrong?
I suspect that if Iomedae is watching, she's probably less than pleased. Ragathiel would be highly intrigued however, as this is totally the sort of thing he'd take a personal interest in.
Grease + Longspear = No enemy movement.
Then the next turn rolls around, and you get to full attack them.
Of course, this will only work on things that you actually CAN trip, and don't also have reach, i.e. humanoids. The idea is solid, but you likely won't have the attack bonus necessary to consistently pull it off at higher levels. But hey, at least you'll stop the enemy from charging you, and you'll still get at least one or two AoOs, plus they'll be flat footed, and we're only talking about a level 1 spell.
So, what I'm saying is: even if the save is low, your spells are still plenty effective. Don't think of them as offensive spells, think of them as circumstance alterations that have a chance to create an Extra, bonus effect.
So, the point buy was:
Do I have that right?
Glad to see that you're getting some extra Dex. A +3 modifier by midlevels should be good.
Exactly. That's why I was dissatisfied with the answer. I can accept an answer of "No, and here's why (insert logical explanation)", or "Yes, it does not conflict with the rules" but getting an off-topic answer was pretty frustrating.
You do realize that you only gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC once per round, right? This is supported a couple of ways.
I strongly favor Bloody Minded and Highlander.
With a lower Dex and Cha, Bloody Minded helps in areas that the Barbarian is weak, so it's a solid pick.
Highlander is just thematically cool. Plus, and this is personal pet peeve of mine, whenever the group as a whole needs to sneak in, there's ALWAYS one guy who is wearing heavy armor, has low Dex, and didn't invest in stealth at all. Don't be that guy. This trait is effectively better than a feat (Skill Focus doesn't get you a +4!) and requires only minimal investment to pay off. One single rank in Stealth gets a +8 modifier. It's really not bad at all.
Other thing: you may want to consider boosting that Dex.... And by more than just 1 point. Enlarge Person is a perennial favorite of Barbarians everywhere and is available as a serious buff from level 1. If your Dex mod is 0, having Combat Reflexes is pretty pointless. Plus, there's all the other benefits of having a decent Dex: AC, ranged attacks, reflex saves, etc.
That being said, is that a 23 point build? I'm not familiar with the AP's character creation guidelines, so that may be intentional, but it's not a standard point buy. Unless, of course, those stats are pre-racial, in which case it's 30 points?
Vanilla Magus with wand or Bladebound Magus with Pearls of Power: what allows for more spell recall in PFS?
Realistically, being a Bladebound Magus saves you 8k and costs an Arcana and an Arcane point-and-a-half. The vast majority of your play will be very minimally affected by the loss of the Arcane point. Until lv.4, there is NO DIFFERENCE in your Arcane pool points. From 4 onward, you're down 1 point, until lv.8, when it's 2, then 1 again at 9, then back to 2 at lv.10.
The GP cost savings are 2k at lv.3, 8k at lv.5, and 18k at lv.9.
The sad truth is that you're likely not going to care about having more than a +1 on your weapon. Most Magi will be more than satisfied by spending 11k on an Adamantine +1 keen weapon. They will start with just the +1 Adamantine for 5k, and when lv.5 rolls around, they use their arcane pool to enhance it with keen and another +1 ability, just the same as the Bladebound. The difference is that the Bladebound has +1 attack and damage, while the vanilla magus can bypass hardness. Sure, maybe the Bladebound has another cool magic item (jingasa of the fortunate soldier, maybe?), but the vanilla Magus has +4 initiative from his familiar, or Arcane Accuracy, or even, yes, Wand Wielder.
True, it doesn't have quite the same number of prereq feats as Whirlwind, but.... it's 2 racial feats + 2 combat feats, so...it's only 1 feat cheaper than Whirlwind. Also, if you're looking at getting Greater Trip (which the build is kind of predicated on), you're getting the 5th prereq feat for Whirlwind anyway (Combat Expertise). Also, Whirlwind is at your highest BAB, and doesn't require any particular attack to hit to keep attacking. And the whole Whirlwind chain is generally useful.
I guess that it's better for action economy, so that's something.
The real wrench in the plan is having a high enough Dex to actually MAKE all of those AoOs.
Sounds like you've got it right. Just about the only action they could perform WITHOUT provoking would be the Withdraw action. Of course, they've only got a single move's worth of speed left (since they stood up) and they're in difficult terrain, so they won't get far. Also, have your caster Enlarge you. Withdraw only stops the AoO on the FIRST 5 feet of movement.
What does Cleaving Sweep have to do with any of this? It's basically Whirlwind Attack, but only with trips, different prereqs, and a much later entry. The only ways that cleave is related are that 1) it's a prereq and 2) both feats start with the same 5 letters.
You can ALWAYS substitute a trip (or disarm/sunder) maneuver for a melee attack.
Bob Bob Bob does raise good point though: maneuvers succeed, attacks hit. Since you make a maneuver IN PLACE OF an attack, it's iffy. However, to attempt a maneuver, you make an attack roll, so...??? I would personally allow it, but a generic PFS GM? That's an entirely different story.
With Whirlwind Attack, Greater Trip, Combat Reflexes, and an absurdly high Dex, he could in fact get 3 attacks per enemy within reach. 1 for Whirlwind, 1 for Greater Trip, and 1
If you're using a reach weapon (of COURSE you are!), try setting up a Wombo Combo by having your Druid/Wizard/Magus friend cast Stone Call centered on you. Sure, you're eating their dust (and 2d6 points of damage), but all your enemies are in difficult terrain, so moving anywhere at all will provoke ANOTHER AoO, which you can then Greater Trip them with....
Enjoy your new-and-improved, 100% totally legal triplock (Now with AoOs!)
My 1e/2e lv.3 Paladin does not agree. The rogue is happily wheeling and dealing hundreds of gold (NOT electrum) at a shot, meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out how the hell I'm going to pay for the inn tonight.
62.)Odd numbers in stats actually mean something other than "oh, that's what I'll bump at lv. 4"
Yeah, my Lore Warden trip build uses Whirlwind Attack with Greater Trip and a whip. I also dipped a level to get the Plant(Growth) subdomain. It's pretty nasty when, at level 7, everything within a 30' burst is prone and provoking AoOs. However, the caveat with this guy is that I didn't take Combat Reflexes, so I only make 1 AoO per round. I usually just wait until someone stands up.
Funny thing is, he's level 9 now, and 8 of those levels are Fighter. In the last PFS scenario that I played him in, he didn't deal a single point of damage. I just played him like a controller Wizard, only I stood in the front.
Whipmaster? Ha! Grab Whirlwind Attack and come play with the big boys. When you're tripping everything in a 30' radius, not to mention making them provoke AoOs, it's like the more reliable version of Haste and Slow combined!
Seriously though, cool guide, I'm glad to see it!
[snark=jk...but not really] You'll definitely want Trapspotter since it looks like you've already failed to find the trap in the "classes" section of the CRB...[/snark]
No, all derision aside, Rogues can be fun to play while being surprisingly effective. Don't let anyone discourage you from playing what you want to play. Many people WILL make derisive comments about "how bad the Rogue is..." and all that, but they will likely offer suggestions as to how be a more effective character while still retaining your Rogue flavor. If you do end up building, say, a Slayer, but you call yourself a Rogue, nobody is going to take issue with that.
That being said, several people have given good answers to your questions. Now here's my take:
1) Your HP will be low. This isn't really something that you can fix. It IS, however, something that that you can avoid dealing with. The 2 biggest threats to your HP are Attack rolls and Reflex saves. As a rogue, you are pretty much the undisputed master of making reflex saves. Even the people who say that Rogues are the worst at everything ever will grudgingly admit that, in this one particular instance, Rogues are actually pretty good.
3) You should focus on being able to hit. Even with minimal investment into Int, you'll have more skill points than anybody else. Seriously, you just will.
4) No. Pure and simple. If you happen to have a decent Str score (at least a 14 or so), AND you get Martial proficiency for free, AND you have a really good Dex (which you probably will, after all), then sure use the Elven Curve Blade. But, honestly, you're not doing yourself any favors by spending a feat on just being able to use a weapon without a penalty.
5) As addressed in point 3, a bonus to attack will trump a bonus to damage every time. Until you're able to hit the enemy on a 5 or less, keep piling on to-hit bonuses instead of damage bonuses.
A couple of things to consider in addition to the questions asked here:
If you're staying CORE, it's tougher, but still doable.
A generic stat array might be:
Of course, you may feel that you don't really need all those skill points, or perhaps you really want better social skills, so it's pretty easy to change it to your specific tastes.
Feel free to tell us exactly what you want to do, and we'll be more than happy to help. Happy gaming!
This notoriously chaste paladin's most famous adventure involved a group of his fellow knights on a quest given by his deity to recover a legendary artifact, said to hold the power of life itself.
I don't even know how there CAN BE more bloat! I mean, for Erastil's sake, we already have a class literally named the BLOATMAGE How do you get more bloated than that!?!?
Also, I suspect that the New Rogue will be so underpowered, inefficient, and generally useless that people will be begging to switch back to the old version. Paizo will now issue reprints of the CRB featuring "Rogue Classic", the messageboards' most popular class ever.
With respect to religion in Pathfinder, the Gods are NOT all-powerful and inviolate. In fact, some of them were mere mortals who later attained their Divine Rank. While their dogma may be in error, in this particular instance, might does indeed make right. Divine Right, that is.
For instance: Lord Gozreh hath decreed that only Rainbow Squids can fly. Ok, great. It's immaterial because obviously other creatures have the power of flight, there are no Rainbow Squids, and there are no flying squids either. Just don't point it out, or somebody might just happen to mention it to Lord Gozreh, and he might just take an active hand in enforcing his policies, perhaps by sending wave after wave of flying Rainbow Squids to smite the heretics.
Just because the religious principles may be illogical or just flat out wrong there's no reason to rock the boat. Facts hold no sway in the face of belief.
Careful with that generalization, now. The subtle distinction between being tripped and falling prone is what makes Greater Trip function in conjunction with Vicious Stomp. I'm sure that you know that, but I don't want others to be confused. Ah, the vagaries of the English tongue!