|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
Sort of agree with op.. I always found the bard underwhelming I agree the archetypes help a lot but you always give up something good.
For a suggestion (surprised this wasn't mentioned) a decent wis based conversion inquisitor meets the criteria and then some.. wis to monster check, to init and social skills along with bonus teamwork feats that really help. Honestly I have a level 8 archer inquisitor and nobody has complained how effective he has been.. well maybe the complaints have been about how quick he kills things
I agree a occultist would be cool for low magic. Have you already looked at a archeologist bard? Rogue like ability with spells take fates favored and you would be getting +2 hit and damage at level 1. Infusions will help but if you can't get a wand it might not be enough or worse you will be giving up the buffs you need. But I have another question if he is limiting magic items what is the rule for leadership?
Planning to do some deeper work on the str based. Sort of still looking at the dex based... with opportune parry and riposte along with weapon trick (stylish riposte) along with a hit in will vs the int hit so longer studied along with possibly more reliable counter attacks. Really need to do some solid number crunching on the two. The str seems solid no denying it something makes me hesitant.
I was trying to get the con to 14 to make up for some hp but tanking both wis and cha sits kinda ill with me...bringing it up to a wis 10 and a 17 str sounds nice (up to 18 at 4 but that -1 hit and damage will hurt the first few levels)
The trait to lower the acp is nice and was leaning towards it but the 4200 cost means it might take a couple levels to gain it (which might be better spent on a magic weapon. Though the half elf sounds nice.
Sort of looking at if i go half elf take the skill focus umd and spend another 2 pp for a wand of shield (already picked up a wand of cure) I would have a umd of +11.. one of my hesitation is with the mutagen you take that -2 to int hit doesnt that hurt skills? Taking the armor feat means that i wont get reflexes until level 5 (power attack is definite level 3) A potion of heroism costs 750 but level 5 duration for a level 2 spot isnt bad. Sorry if im rambling tinkering with the character and trying things out.
Keep wondering about the pros and cons of dex vs str the level slow down sucks but does is make up for itself?
I agree bard should for the concept but I find them underwhelming. I am leaning towards the swashbuckler. I'll do another flame though at the bard, that's why I went skald.
Chess how did you do your stats and what race? I'll revisit it but not sure.
It will be a week or two until I play but it's locked in so want to be positive
I'm avoiding range this time around since my main is already a archer.
Think that is my issue with the str build seems too...squishy. 18 str, 14 dex, 13 con, 16 int, 7 wis and 7 cha... feat was wrong at combat reflexes and traits are fate's favored and student of philosophy. Took sacred tattoo and shaman's apprentice. With a chain shirt i have a 16 ac. Had a shield and enlarge prepped regretted enlarge though.
I would probably go elf for the swashbuckler/investigator... work with a rapier... higher armor and seems a bit a more balanced but there is that a level hold back.
Occultist would probably go half elf with skill focus linguistic and orator at level one
Yeah the last party I was in only myself and the animal companion would have benefited from the skald... but to get it up to +8 would put him slightly above a barbarian at level 2 at least. I actually tried a strong investigator last session asks wasn't impressed but it could have been the build. The dex base seems to get better each level. The battle host seems pretty consistent
That is one thing I'm worried about, I really like the investigator but it takes awhile to get going...hoping the level in swashbuckler would make up for it but really since this is pfs you never know if someone can use a wand and my umd would be really useless until level 3 level 4 I could get mutagen and then it will just keep going from there. Skald would have a similar issue but with the level of bloodrager out of the way it wouldnt be as huge of a bump (but i wonder if he would basically peak at level two)
So I'm hitting level 2 for my back up and trying to figure out which way to go since PFS locks the character in at 2.
Option one is a Inspired swashbuckler/Investigator the rest of the way.
Options Two is a Bloodrager/skald rest of the way
Option three is a Battlehost occultist
They are all a scholar/warrior type and they each seem pretty solid.. the investigator would be dex based and seems like each level would make him more and more complete (semi rough start though)
The skald would have a familar and as a half orc I would benefit from augment rage...so in combat he would have +8 str/con and by level 3 would be looking at some level of fast healing
Occultist would be more of a fighter-ish type gaining some nice bonuses and with transmutation
Here is my thought on the dual talented human... you only get the +2 to a additional stat but you lose the feat and a extra skill point. While the favored class bonus is nice it isn't earth shattering.
Elf gets you the same bonuses but -2 con... but you get low light vision, immunity to sleep, a +2 vs enchantments, +2 to perception, if you give up elven magic and weapon familiarity you can take Forlorn and get skill focus (I would say umd) If you want the favored class bonus grants you +1 inspiration point every 3 levels..... not bad for a -2 con
Half elf is pretty strong but I kinda think the elf takes the cake on this
So very curious why you went dual talented. Seems like you give up every bonus for being human for the extra +2, why not just go with a elf seems like you would gain more, even with the -2 con.
I would down the long terms buff when in a dangerous spot and keep the nice combat buffs rolled up in the admixture vial for actual Combat. Not sure if inspired gives up a buckler but I would still keep one for emergencies.
Level 3 also gets you heroism which is awesome +2 hit, +2 to all saves and +2 to all skills and it stacks with the above. Lol some cool stuff already i didnt know before. I've been trying to decide if a level of swashbuckler is needed
Depending on the gm and the amount of potions available I would say 2-3 towards alchemical allocation, it could be abused pretty easily by having a bunch of potions on hand. Espcially ones you dont have on your list.
A small thing but i would move wis up by at least two since you are losing 2 points from the mutagen. This is pretty close to what i was looking to build didnt know about stylish riposte...that is pretty darn sweet dont know if it stacks would opportune parry and riposte...probably not but still. Trap spotter might be too nice to give up and combine extracts might be nice too. The formula Alchemical allocation is too good to pass up especially when you start running into very nice potions
Actually when you said "An Ideal character, not an idea for a quicky build. I was asking if it was possible using current classes. Look back at the original post. Its basically a perfect Jack-of-all-trades. As much as the Troll got to me, yeah, its a character with no weaknesses. Its a Bard 2.0." You literally said a perfect jack of all trades. As was mentioned before a jack of all trades will never master all..but sometimes they become more than their parts... a fighter will always be a better fighter than you and a spellcaster will beat you to a pulp... but how many of them can cast a spell AND hit someone in the face.
As I mentioned before for a level dip in inspired swashbuckler the investigator is everything you are looking for. Pick up a mutagen for dex and quick study for studied target than all the wonderful formulas that can be learned. The level of swashbuckler will give you finesse and focus for the rapier (all you need is fencing grace to add dex to damage) then of course you cant go wrong with combat reflexes and opportune parry and riposte.. you will probably be better at skills than even the wizard and on par with the rogue picking apart traps
Ok I really think you just want something powerful and not a jack of all trades (in so far as you want ALL the perks and no/little downside) I actually have a character pretty close to your example (level 8 PFS)
Inquisitor of Erastil (Sanctified Slayer, Feather domain) Stats are meh at 14 str, 20 dex, 10 con, 12 int, 16 wis and 8 cha.. HP 50 and 22 AC
So continuing the oracle idea, curses are really not a big deal and when you level up they usually make up for themselves... worse case take one that wont have too much of a effect on you...like legalistic. I'm sure the number crunchers would have a better idea but you have a bit of flexibility.. Str could be 16/17 (divine favor will pick up the slack) dex around 12..in the beginning it might hurt until you pick up heavy armor to make up for it. Then something like 13/14 con 13 int wis 10 (closest thing to a dump stat) then 14 cha...go battle and warsighted...that will give you a floating feat. Cha doesn't need to be the highest since you would be mainly doing buff spells and maybe summons that don't require saves. Limited spells but you dont have to prepare them ahead of time.. obviously in later levels you probably would be casting more. Summons are nice for a jack of all trade too
I think many people have attempted to help you...you just keep getting in your own way. I agree with the above poster, you are quick to offer objections to ideas but you seem to ignore most of the options.
As previously noted a battle oracle would be pretty nasty with full casting and many extra feats. (believe you disagreed due to it being cha based...even though it met most of your requirements)
The lore warden is a very awesome jack of all trades (I was really looking at that route) Yeah you cant cast spells but you can use wands pretty reliably.
Heck even my suggestion of the swashbuckler/investigator was shrugged due to a level dip (forget that the one level actually keeps being useful and creates a unique route)
There are of course a lot more...so what IS your idea?
Been following this since I love jack of all trades. I'm gonna agree with the investigator with a single dip in swashbuckler (currently building one for my backup)
The dip into a inspired swashbuckler means you will be dex based (can keep str down) and with a min 1 panache from cha and bonus to int you can have a decent start...you get buckler and all martial weapons...even though you are focused on rapier you could still pull out a bow and be pretty decent.
Then on to the empiricist investigator... being able to add 1D6 to any trained knowledge, spellcraft and linguistic to start is always nice not to mention trapfinding bonuses... at level two you can add int to many skills and you can pretty much be the face of the party with 0 cha (pick up student of philosophy) Personally I've tinkered with taking the feat for divine obedience to irori and get +4 to all knowledge skills since there is so much to take and only so many skill points. at level 3 pick up mutagen (seriously who would want +4 dex and +2 ac sadly -2 wis though) then get quick study for studied target.
So a character that would be pretty decent in melee...soso in range...able to compete with a bard and can pick a trap like a rogue... Sadly no spells just alchemy (chemical spells) but you can get a decent UMD pretty easy) For point buy mainly worry about dex and int maybe 12 in wis and a ok con but go to town from there
Hey all I'm working on my alt and have kinda tossed back and forth on this. Really wondered if there is a official ruling. But to spell it out Bloodrager with valet familiar and then skald the rest of the way...by level 3 I would have skald's vigor...The question is do I get fast healing 2/6/8? I could see the argument that the bloodrager's +2 would not apply to it but the morale bonus for amplified seems ok. Also I was thinking about a small familiar that the character would carry with him...would that count as adjacent in regards of amplified? This is for PFS so trying to get a solid idea
Yeah not a point in umd :( I did debate on a wand of shield of faith.. What about the rod of lesser extend? Giving heroism to myself and the cat for 80 mins a day sounds pretty nice (animal and me split it in half) which also gives me +2 to saves.. So the boots are a must it seems was gonna wait a level or so... So boots, a +1 buckler, handy haversack, efficient quiver and rod of lesser extend...with about 1500 in the bank (think i bought the haversack before the 19k) Downside to this character is trying to get the pet up to be competitive while keeping myself up
Yeah really havent run into too much with dr yet so hoping i can make it to 9 (3 sessions) without the need...granted my arrows are doing about 1D8+11/12 before bane (deadly aime and divine favor+ weapon)
Boots of speed are nice but worried that i should shore up some weak spots first. (Ac21 and hp is 50)
Hey all only took like 3 months to get to level 8 (been playing this inquisitor every so often in pfs for some 4 years. I did retrain a year or two ago to the sanctified slayer) So first question...I get a slayer bonus at level 8...taking Combat trick to get a bonus feat... doing archery and debating on manyshot or clustered shot.. I'll take the other next level at 9. Feats right now are point blank, precise, rapid, deadly aim and boon companion (yes i took the feather domain)
Other question is I have 19,364 gold I have a +1 seeking composite bow(+2 str) +1 mithril chain and a mw buckler..gear is belt of dex +2 cloak of resist +1 a wand of cure, potion of mage armor, 2 of enlarge person and 8 scrolls of endure element...animal companion has amulet of mighty fist +1 and +1 mithril chain shirt.
my thought right now is to possibly go with a +2 dex and con belt (I have a 10 con which i really regret, but as a archery it has rarely come up) leaning towards a rod of lesser extend (Use heroism and heightened awareness and just picked up magic weapon greater) was gonna break down and pick up a handy haversack...was debating on at least tweaking armor or a better cloak...but 19k will go fast
Wow you really hit on a obscure point... had to go back and look at the whole channeling thing...honestly it was nice but not a factor.
To compare the two..this is assuming both are reach so both need to take combat reflexes and power attack...then really the evangelist has a sort of feat tax for lingering performance...because who wouldn't take that...meanwhile the herald doesn't have to take spell focus conjuration and gets augment summon and superior summon for free...hands down in feats the herald caller is superior...skills 2 vs 4...seriously? A evangelist loses the ability to cast cure spells for some dominating spells...a reach cleric's wis is not top notch so spells that require a opponent to make a save is not a good idea...so spontaneous cure is a another win for herald...oh wait I can spontaneously cast summons too!? (seriously no contest there) As to channel...granted the variant might be better but the herald has is uninterrupted while the evangelist loses it at 1/9/15...added effect I can heal my summons too from any distant (to variant or not to that is a question and probably nullifies the advantage of it being uninterupted)... Now granted the thing that makes me jealous of the evangelist is the inspire courage Hands down that is a win...but with the herald caller crushing in all other areas you have to wonder if it is worth it. Now if you are trying to compare a reach cleric type to a non-reach cleric type then we are doing apple and oranges at that point.
The one thing that I'm worried about is full round actions means I cant use attacks of opp...which kills the reach aspect.. I need to look at the build a bit more sounds like he might be along what i was thinking (not reach but still)
Sorta disagree there Renegade... I looked at the Evangelist and while most play the heck out of it.. I felt it was weak. As I mentioned in the opening post 2+int for skills just isn't enough...granted it is a preference. So you get inspire courage...which is very nice...you still lose the med armor/shield and only one domain...oh and you lose the ability to spontaneously cast cure...granted you usually shouldn't need to use a cure...but when you need it I've found it to be important...herald caller gets you 4+ int the ability to spontaneously cast cure AND summons..as well as some bonus feats. initial thought is to maybe move them to skill focus linguistic and orator...in the long run I could see the character being able to do more than a singing cleric :)
But really to get the build up and running I really need to get standard summons but Sacred summons is somewhat limited so would be nice to have a way to gain something every level to summon. A bit annoying that a lot of other classes can seem to get the standard summons except this one
Yeah can't use it, otherwise i would. I would love to make some kind of reach build with standard action summons. Looked at the summoner but it is married too much to the eidolen... the monster tactician is right up my ally...
Agreed leaning towards travel but I'm open...considered tactics. Not sure Renegade, it seems like if you subtract so much what is the point of playing a reach cleric...might as well play a Arcanist as a Occultist. Playing by PFS rules so no evil.
Is there any feats that expand the summons list for the sacred summons?The elementals would be nice but the full round will hurt
Sorry I keep going back to this class...was gonna go with a skald but been iffy. I've always wanted to work on a reach cleric but I was never a fan of the 2+ int skills...so a herald caller sounds good to me for the 4+ int skills along with some bonus summoning feats...One thing I keep going back to is a dip into fighter to gain back my armor prof as well as a bonus feat... I am also leaning towards either human or half elf and taking skill focus: linguistics then orator...get combat reflexes and power attack asap and sacred summons by lvl 5 or 7... Domain atm is travel but not 100% sold stats are Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 int 12 14 wis and 10 cha...gonna try to put 1 point into con and then wis rest of the way. Not sure how the expanded summonings work... but thought atm is he would be a decent face while spreading his skills a bit and still be pretty nasty in a fight...later levels he would start summoning regularly
That is the issue with the build Padawanchichi some will say amplified stacks and others say it doesn't for skald's vigor... Honestly that has me reconsidering my build.... but a 6 fast healing at level 3 would offset the +8 con while raging imo. I don't want to get to a table though and find out my fast healing is only a 2 because that is how that gm rules it. I'm with you in believing you would get the +6 fast healing...but as this thread just showed...there is a issue in the ruling... so tread carefully
I've been leaning towards the build #1...different rage powers was thinking superstitious, witchhunter and improved dr.
One thing to keep in mind is if the amplified rage counts towards skald's vigor...I've heard arguments both ways. That makes me nervous because you never know what a gm will lean toward and you might not have the same one everytime
Yuri...the bloodrager dip is probably for the valet familiar so he could reliably have it up
Yes read that. Things are very slightly different but same idea. If you dont read it the basic point of the guide was to start off as a decent melee and make a easy transition to full caster mode. Herald caller is pretty nice since you gain a lot while losing a little (except the domain a level dip would put you back in even better shape) but 4+ int skills and the ability to give up a spell for either healing or summons is pretty solid (not to mention your summons understanding you and augment and superior summons for free). Dumping anything on a cleric is really hard...while not great i did a human herald caller (travel domain) Stats are meh at 15 str, dex 14, con 13, int 12, wis 15 and cha 10...in hindsight better to do a 16 str and then a 14 wis then 1 in con at 4 and the wis the rest of the way.
Sounds like everything you are looking for imo
Maybe I missed something but a reach cleric is a solid choice. Meant to be a fighter early levels and then move to caster mode. Herald caller with maybe one level of fighter night be worth it... yeah multi-classing is bad but that might be one time it would be worth it
Agreed I would agree with the song bonus instead of the rage.... since the song is still granting something. But the way augment rage is worded I could see it working with skald vigor. But then I could see the argument the other way. With pfs this becomes a gamble due to table variation
Hmm was this that contested? "you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides" is from the feat (nothing about str modifier...so assuming straight str)
So deep researching right now (aka picking every word) Inspired rage gets a tad murky "based on her own ability and level instead of those from the skald" which implies that even if I get the +4 str from raging due to being a bloodrager...it isn't really changing what the song is actually providing. BUT amplified rage states "your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4." It would appear that in terms of skald's vigor at level 3 would grant me fast healing 6. Granted this is getting very fine and it might be a hassle at the table.
With PFS and changing gms this might be a issue if there is no real official word... worse if there is a errata and it gets clipped. (been out for a awhile so doubtful but still)
For offense it would still be pretty solid...add in power attack and he would pretty much be done for offense...losing the fast healing 8 for 6 would be tolerable...2 would make me reconsider skald vigor until later levels Or maybe if I skipped bloodrager it would be the level 1 feat :P
I'm actually aiming for a scholar warrior type route. I plan to worship Irori... deific obedience would grant me +4 to all knowledge skills (Which i plan to sprinkle points here and there so that would be a huge boost)
I did see the battle song of the people's revolt... planned to give the whole party amplified bloodrage...forgot about the percussion or wind...not sure how i can grant that and still smack things around. I will have to add discordant voice into my arsenal.
Lot of things to debate on...half orc vs human and dip vs straight. The half orc does get me sacred tattoo with shaman's apprentice (with fate's favored) I'm rocking +2 to all saves along with endurance...not to mention darkvision... Human does give you +1 skill (which yes is a big deal to me) as well as a extra feat. The dip in bloodrager gives me a familiar, with valet I gain alertness (pfs rule to replace able assistant) along with the familar gaining any teamwork feat i have (ahem augment rage) I could reliably get +8 str and con by level 2...level 3 with skald's vigor I will have +8 fast healing..faster running speed helps..granted slower to get everything but he would be a decent front liner
A witch with healing patron would really cover most of it. Worst case do a hex channeler.
Not to seem bitter towards the shaman.. I keep trying to get it to work but it is very rough.... Go solid life.. bump your wis to max, cha decent along with int and con...str is sadly your only dump stat dex you probably want something...get ant haul asap to lift your armor.
Spirit talker was torched to the ground...only works for a hour after you spend time on it. So wandering lore you can pick up the arcane spells you might need. On the bright side life link works like the oracle now (hence why you might want a decent con)
There is always Cayden Cailean's Blade and Tankard for a fighting style...two weapon fighting with a rapier and tankard... smacking people with Cayden's holy symbol... courage in a bottle could be very nice. Drunken brawler too..not to mention the trait fortified drinker... Be drunk the whole adventure!!
A reach Herald caller is a very strong path. Honestly I was leaning towards that before. One thing I was debating on was the one level of fighter. But the extra summoning feats work well for getting better armor
I think BobTheCoward you are perhaps misleading about not having a preconceived notion of what you are looking for. Namely You are mandating by your opinions that he remains a long sword/ short sword user. Which plainly doesn't work very well. Do two short swords but keep it the same...that way you can just pick up weapon focus and specialization along with the same weapon training..that would suddenly make you a better Valeros. Getting the feats to stack like that means you are suddenly hitting at +2 and +3 to damage on each hit
So played the first session but I ran into questions. First thought is what to pick at level 3. Skald vigor is my first choice but power attack or deific obedience foot+4 knowledge is nice to. I just started the level one as a bloodrager but was bored might change to skald at 1 then bloodrager. Stats are tight was leaning towards 16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 8 wish, and 14 cha... he is spread out