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Pathfinder Society Member. 495 posts. No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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I agree if you arent sold on the witch, why make one? I think the witch actually is better but it really comes down to what you are looking for. A witch is more a spellcaster..she really only needs to get her int up to a decent level everything else is just nice.. spell wise you can get more debuffing spells. Dont get me wrong I love the shaman and I keep trying to make one but then you find out it is a really mad class almost on par with cleric...maybe worse. They both have a role..the shaman is more combat oriented and the witch is a caster


Sorry Pale king not trying to hijack your thread. I've been tossing around if i was gonna pick up the book...looks like I will be. You lose a lot but really you are gaining some interesting options.

@Axial No clue who that is gonna check into it.

@Drahliana Moonrunner I actually love that type of character, the idea of a shining knight fighting evil and never being touched by it becomes a stretch after awhile. I was tempted to quote Nietzsche but I'll skip that :) I do think it is a stretch to start at level 1 as such but I'm not gonna complain.


Lol I have to admit I got a huge grin on my face when you mentioned dwarf Ventnor. When I was playing 4e I made probably my favorite character to date..Granted it was a dwarf fighter, but it was the build where he kept getting temp hp. Based him off of Gotrek character in warhammer. This might be a good fix... probably take Steel soul at level 1 and power attack at 3...then extra lay on hands after that :)


There is a lot more to it than that. You gain a hit and deflection from smite at +4 (so it was like you had 18 cha) 4+int to skills along with some really nice skills. Losing divine grace and detect evil is really rough though. Alone in the dark is a built in oath of vengeance and second chance! Aka "I'm about to fall unconscious let me cast lay on hands before I do" It is actually a interesting archetype (sorry just seeing it :P) You give up the team aspect of a paladin but you become a grim slayer of evil type.


Str is nice, I actually tried it but had no luck. Between str draining effects and fellow players getting in the way of the spear I just wasnt feeling it. Granted groups vary, some people will work with you and others might not realize in their rush to get in front... While enlarge is nice you are also losing 2 to dex (so your ac actually goes down 2)and another to hit...which is offset by the +2 str... still kinda hurts at low levels


@wise old man.. I actually thought about two weapon fighting but I decided to go the route most have pointed out. I really would like toughness but just having a tough time picking it up...actually my first physical enh item is a toss up between dex or con.

@D@rK-SePHiRoTH-...holy cow that fortuitous looks pretty nice..as it stands my plan is to take weapon trick at level 5 (quick study at level 6) Was debating if the weapon trick was worth it but with that enhancement it seems to be. But it is back to wanting all these things on the weapon...the scabbard will be a must at this point. I do plan to use long arm extract to increase my range by 5ft. probably starting next level or maybe level 4.

@Avr.. prestige points are still kinda iffy to me but as you go up you can use it to haul your corpse back and for res as you go up. You basically get 2 pp on a good run. For this plan though you can use 2 pp to purchase 1 item 750g or below so the level 1 wands fall just in range. I'll probably will end up with the wands for most of the adventures. (Most people will bring a spare wand to be used on themselves but if i tank the roll I plan to substitute. Come level 3 I'll be in better shape At +12 umd ... think i could burn a inspiration point for another 1D6 if i roll a one...so close.

As for the knowledge checks and getting the one point in each add in +4 for deific obedience, +2 heroism, +2 heightened awareness and +1D6(+1 or 2 later on) I'm looking at roughly 15+1d6 for knowledge rolls...that is one feat, and one skill point in each...heroism is a must and I like the vibe of heightened awareness so min (i think) investment to become a book on top of his other skills


Personally I have a level 2 swash/investigator. The one level dip is a hassle but you get all those feats along with riposte which kinda stacks as you level. I have a post going right now you might want to look at for some ideas. If you go mutagen for dex I would move your wis up to 12. I found saves are always needed so going the whole fate's favored and sacred tattoo for the +2 to all saves might be a good idea.


Obviously next level my skills get a major boost switching some important ones to int. Then for Feat I'm getting combat reflexes. My favored bonus is going into the 1/4 to add to inspiration rolls.


@Wise old man...agreed I was half awake but wanted to get some ideas asap...though with the tropic storm it might be a wash this weekend.

Unnamed Hero
Male half-elf investigator (empiricist) 1/swashbuckler (inspired blade) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 56, 100, 125)
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +4 Dex, +1 shield)
hp 16 (2 HD; 1d8+1d10+2)
Fort +3, Ref +9, Will +4; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk rapier +7 (1d6+4/18-20)
Special Attacks deeds (derring-do, dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte), panache (4)
Investigator (Empiricist) Extracts Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +4)
1st—shield (2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 15
Feats Fencing Grace, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits forlorn, student of philosophy
Skills Acrobatics +5, Bluff +3 (+8 to lie (as a result of using Int instead of Cha)), Craft (alchemy) +7 (+8 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +3 (+8 to persuade others but not to gather information (as a result of using Int instead of Cha)), Disable Device +8, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Linguistics +7, Perception +8, Sense Motive +5, Spellcraft +7, Use Magic Device +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Ancient Osiriani, Common, Elven, Goblin, Infernal, Orc
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +1), elf blood, inspiration (3/day), inspired panache, trapfinding +1
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds, alchemist's fire (3); Other Gear chain shirt, buckler, mwk rapier, cloak of resistance +1, alchemy crafting kit[APG], backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, ink, inkpen, investigator starting formula book, masterwork thieves' tools, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 38 gp, 1 cp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemy +1 (Su) +1 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Deeds
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Fencing Grace Use Dexterity on rapier damage rolls
Inspiration (+1d6, 3/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Inspired Panache (Ex) Gain no panache from killing blow, only from rapier crits.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.


So playing my inspired swash/empiricist investigator (level 2) in the pfs sat and I'e kinda realized that all the nice things I've been looking at are starting to add up. General concept is he started as a swashbuckler but he found he had a better knack and deconstructing things/people. So I'm already pinched on skill points, even with a 16 int... So 9 skill points per level but craft alchemy, disable device, perception, bluff, diplomacy sense motive and umd are tied up each level...leaving 2 to spread out each level..plan to get at least a point into each knowledge and picking up deific obedience irori to get my knowledge to a decent level. Obviously extracts will be mainly self buffs with no real plan to take infusions. But I'm realizing I kinda need a lot of things...right now I have one wand of cure light, but I'm paranoid I would roll a one so leaning towards another backup and then a wand of shield. So prestige points are bleeding but right now planning to keep wands there. Anything you guys would recommend.. just picked up a cloak of resist, mw thieves tools, a mithril chain shirt is up there on the list. Even my rapier is conflicted at looking at a +1/inspired/keen/and the only that gives you the huge bonus to riposte. Am I trying to cover too many bases?


Agreed but in terms of craft she already has alchemy (for dayjob check). Trying to help her with advice due to having only so many skill points per level. I'll admit I have no clue of the factions I've just done silver crusade and grand lodge. So if it is a choice between a more useful skill (say diplomacy or disable device) and profession eh for role playing having appraise, diplomacy, sense motive, bluff and knowledge: local make you a merchant not a skill point. Agree with you that maybe profession helps to run a business but by background she only helped run.


To me profession is kinda redundant...you have all the other skills to be a merchant, why spend one more point to say that you are a merchant? When I was playing this character, the first couple adventures involved str draining attacks... I watched the character crumple under the weight of his gear. I still cant decide if preparing the extract is worth it (there are a bunch of other things I'd rather prep) What is truly amusing to me is your background could almost be applied to my character, you went the merchant route and i went the more magically fascinated route :P

Some items on my list (for ideas..*is for taking a closer look)Eyes of the Eagle, Boots Striding and Springing, *Golem Bane Scarab, *Swarm Bane Clasp, Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf, Wand of cure light (x2), Wand of shield, Plume of panache (x?), Handy haversack, *Potion of heroism (splurge on this!!) +1 inspired Rapier (keen?), Mithril chainshirt, *Cloak of resist (second magic item I bought after the wand of cure), headband of vast int, Belt of incredible dex, and finally Shield: fortification. There is a lot there which adds to the str worries (I only went 10...kinda regretting it now) Any questions on the item or reasoning let me know.

For extracts to look at: ant haul, heightened awareness, shield, comprehend language and cure...the higher you go the more important heightened awareness is imo. At level 2 barkskin and **alchemical allocation


Ant haul is a extract (or whatever it is called) basically a spell you can prepare that lastshe 2 hours per level. A potion would be 50g for two hours.


Mw backpack, along with always prepared ant haul... handy haversack asap. Do not assume you can bring a pack animal. Midst times you won't be able to. Keep you load light, those penalties will kill you


Left field idea bard had the arrowsong. minstrel you get a ton of skills, ability to buff and cmon you get gravity bow. Haven't planned it out but it seems like a interesting idea


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Didn't consider your response to be that impolite..I've known similar people like you and as your previous response shows I was dead on. Sadly you want advice but really only want it to a certain point and when the vast majority point out that your logic is flawed you will use the sacred roll-player vs role-player argument or just say "maybe this isnt the game for me." As a courtesy realize how much time and thought others have put into the responses to explain their logic. Your opening post specifically states you are new to pathfinder...hence everyone is explaining their experience in pathfinder and the very mechanics of the class. (since you are newer to rules) I think all the responses have been spent explaining it to you, at this point you are in a lock-down mode and there is no point to argue. I'm amazed that as a "role-player" you are locking your character down so much. Personally I have a concept pick the class to match and then play...after a session or two I realize the concept isnt matching the mechanics..luckily the developers realized the same thing. Keep your mind open is the big thing, otherwise you will be trying to force your concept to mechanics and wont be happy.

Now I've read your background multiple times mechanically that isnt your character. First and foremost you grew up in "Akorians Emporium of All Things Magical." you were surrounded by magical things at all times..it was your parent's lively hood...and you took skill focus: perception!? Seriously I understand from a power gaming perspective perception is king.. but that should be use magic devices hand down. With no interest in boys/girls or just flat out not realizing...that places cha down below average so 7-9. To note also for the fencing lessons..the core class includes the proficiency...taking finesse will seal the deal... no reason to take swashbuckler based on the story..unless you actually are putting a focus on the fencing in which case a master would just barely notice you at a 14 dex.

Now all these numbers really do mean something besides mechanics. Remember that 99.9% of people will have stats ranging from 10-11..that is the normal. Einstein would have had maybe a 18 int and he is considered to be by most one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...your character may be smart but is she of Einstein's level... A 14-15 would put you as very bright..not the wizard's int able to manipulate reality or physics-type smart.


Sigh ok I'm done with the thread. As mentioned previously IF the swashbuckler wasn't a priority then I would skip it. (Go back up and look) actually look at the facts of my post they are not assumptions. It is advice I've learned while playing (hence advice forum) so last bit of advice is go out and play,you can change everything until 2,then come back and reread this thread.


Wow you would actually gain a lot...seriously you tanked str!? First and foremost you are NOT a wizard. You need the armor and gear... at 7 str using just a chain shirt and a rapier you are at a med load giving you a max dex of 3 and another 3 armor check penalty...you will hit heavy as soon as you add gear meaning a max dex of 1 and -6 acp you cannot afford to tank str.

Sorry that shocked me. As mentioned previously a 20 int suffers diminished returns and my whole speech on hybrid classes goes into it. So here is a shocker: Bring int down to 15 (no bonus to it) yeah yeah shock and awe...you need a 16 to get all the major benefits from it (aka extracts) now we have 10 points which is first bringing str to 11..yeah it costs 5 points but you need to be able to hold your things...next we bring your wis to 12 (ill explain in a min) get con to 13 and add your bonus +1 to dex bringing it up to 17 Honestly if i could bring cha down to a 9 I would make str 10 and con 12 and bring dex to 18.

Now to add reasoning to this: Dex is actually your main att...what do you gain from it? Initiative, armor, bonus to hit, damage, attacks of opp from combat reflexes and a ref bonus. You need to carry gear and it adds up way too quick to ignore it. Con for hp fort and when you get to -hp it keeps you alive. Wis 12 will is really important but lets face it what is more important is having it up to 12 so when you lose two from the dex mutagen (gaining another 2 to hit/damage and +4 ac)

You are gaining way more than losing dropping int that is why everyone is saying you should move it down


Character is not solid until level 2. They give you a chance to make changes if you see it isn't working


Last add on before work so you don't think it would be just a combat character..I wouldn't worry about buffing you would be bringing a lot more to the table.. I would put skill focus in umd,the ability to use any magic item is impressive on top of that I've seen parties with no healer or ability to use a wand of cure. Disable device is very uncommon,last game I was in the gm was about to skip that roll until I let him know I could disable said trap. Being the face and all the knowledge of things you know. That is where the investigator excells


If you are dead set on the 20 int I would skip out on the level of swashbuckler...just pick up finesse at level 1 and worry about leveling the investigator up. The swashbuckler adds more combat to you, if it isnt a priority there is no reason to go there. Stats I would prioritize dex and then int...str I would keep at 10 and wis/con at least 12 in the front line a d8 isnt gonna cut it...I have a archer with a 10 con and I get all runny when someone gets close to me. Basic feats for swordplay(if you are going swashbuckler dip) I would take fencing grace (so now dex is to hit and damage) and then combat reflexes (so you can do multiple riposte in a round) Mutagen (at 3)would be a very solid talent to pick up along with quick study (at 5) after that you could move towards rounding out the character..like at 5 take the extra talent feat for infusion. The investigator has a long start up but what is nice is you can see them progress each level


The thing you need to keep in mind is you are planning a jack of all trade..or a hybrid. As such you should look at most hybrids there is a reason most do not have spells past level 6... you need to have the ability to cast the spells but also keep up your fighting ability. That said a 20 int is very contrary and ineffective to the build...most points have gone into int and you really are getting nothing from it. You should really spread the stats out. Although really you could play a wizard with that...you would have all your points.

As mentioned the bard is the same idea...being a buffer you dont have to worry about the opponents making a save...a 13/14 is very plausible by 10th level the bard would get +5 to knowledge and you could take 10... you would be a decent face and nobody beats the bard for buffing. Granted you need to perform.

Don't get me wrong, I love the investigator, spent probably too much time thinking about it. But really I wouldn't try to buff everyone you just dont have enough resources (maybe at later levels) Covers all your bases but your support would be in killing things quick(-ish)


I know there are tiers, never bothered to learn them. Your preference towards buffing above all else is where the bard comes from. Heck they even get a rapier to boot. Spells like haste and good hope..added to inspire makes you a really good buffer. Everyone benefits.. the investigator can do that but only one person will get the benefit per spell..so it is 1 vs your level in targets. We realize you don't want to play a bard but we are just saying "you want a apple This is a apple" classes are like people what defines it is the character. You can play a bard with no skill in instrument nor a singing voice and still be effective. Heck some archetypes don't even need that


I suck at the quotes and such but you said "If it's impossible to play a dedicated social char, with buffing as her major contribution to the fight. And decent at the rapier to kill of the mooks once buffing is done... If that's impossible please just say so that I can delete my PFS account." THAT is a bard.
Now my previous suggestions were mainly about where I was going by no means was it directing you to go in that direction (mainly it was "here is some cool things I found" take it or leave it) That said I agree with Drahliana...play a bard that is what you want...dont let the singing or playing get in your way go oratory and tell a tale or a chant. A "buffer" investigator is possible and they can give out some decent buffs...all like 2-3 of them and you really need to hope you gave the right potion to the right person at the right time. Like I mentioned previously some of the most powerful buffing spells effect the whole party...you are still just effecting one person. A bard starts off at level one giving the whole party +1 hit and damage, that is your bread and butter...it helps everyone and yourself. With a decent cha and the skill points a bard is a definite face in the party.

Online would be a good place to play, you can go to the store but you might run into people like me. Old farts with a wife and baby that is out just for the 4 hours set aside to get my fix in. Don't get me wrong I'm all for RP but I wont sit there for 30 mins to talk some goblins out of robbing us. (Not saying that is your style but I've seen it...and 5 mins later all the goblins are dead when I said fudge it) PFS is a mixed bag as was previously mentioned some lean towards combat/fluff and others are a nice mix. Sorry if this was rushed need to go back to work vaca is over


At first i was gonna say how much more expensive bracers of armor were compared to normal armor...but that has changed (maybe I'm thinking 3.5) I still find it to be a attempt at forcing a square through a circular hole. Fact is you would still want many shot and you cannot get it without point blank or rapid shot...which doesnt work with the monk's flurry. Your Ac would still be a tad lower you also wouldnt be able to use a buckler AND you would have to wait one more lvl to get to the awesome abilities. Lets face it the inquisitor might have one less shot to the monk but the arrows will hit a heck of a lot harder...and he would be more accurate


Friendly fire maneuvers along with solo tactics negate that issue at level 3...of course that requires point blank and precise.

Honestly the best and easiest thing to do is just go human...this is one of those builds that it just makes more sense you really want the 3 feats by level 3...i remember just firing the one arrow until level 3...it sucked but all of a sudden the group was looking at me saying HOW much damage?? Really at this point i would go a Sanctified slayer over the zen archer any day You will a lot harder and more reliably..and lose maybe one arrow..but then i went feather domain and now have a large cat pouncing on everything..which i give my divine favor to for 5 rounds...gm got really upset when i cast invisibility purge on myself and the cat :)

Anywho, betryer a good spell to keep ready is honeyed tongue..rolling diplomacy twice is very nice


But manyshot still requires point blank. Seriously i know zen sounds good on paper...but really you will regret it later on.

@Dave Justus, I agree with steel refrain I think he is looking for a face but really he wants a archer going...bard would have the same issue as the inquisitor...maybe worse since you dont get the teamwork feats to help a bit


I'd rather worship a god of knowledge than put my head in a vice and deform it :)

For me my feats/investigator talents are more combat related at first. I see him evolving first from a swashbuckler. So level 1 racial skill focus to umd (really want to be reliable at using a wand...rolling a 1 and failing means you cant use the wand) along with fencing grace...you now can hit and do damage based on dex. Level 2 is the first level of investigator...currently i have two extracts of shield prepped. At level 3...now we get to have some fun..pick up combat reflexes...you can now parry and riposte up to you attacks of opp as long as you have panache...that and parrying means you wont get hit so a plus-plus :) Level 4 is a big one for me..i started with a 15 int and now get it up to 16... First talent would be mutagen get +4 dex and +2 AC at -2 wis for 10 mins per..level 5 is the tough level..you get studied combat which is really nice, but a move action...you could use a feat to get the extra talent for quick study..or wait until level 6...my plan is to wait and pick up weapon trick (one handed weapon) for stylish riposte...if a opponent misses me by 5 or more I can use a attack of opp to hit them (use one time per day per opponent) not a big deal since i could pretty much have a ac around 29. Stats are str 10, dex 18/con 14/int 15/wis 12 and cha 7...lol i havent even gotten into gear but that is my main feats/stats until level 5..6 would of course bring quick study


But Zen is so bad... unless you have a high wis and dex your AC will be horrible, you cannot wear armor and flurry...on top of that manyshot requires rapid shot. Holding off on inquisitors means you have to wait that much longer for teamwork feats (seriously bypassing soft cover at level 3 is awesome) and bane...bane is a game changer with archers.

Read my above post..go human and sanctified slayer...save a non-human for a non-archer. If dead set against it save precise until level 5 and swallow the 4 penalty that you would normally get from soft cover =/ Go human and at 5 you could be taking deadly aim to stack on top of bane


I like deific obedience with irori you would have to wait a couple levels but getting +4 to all knowledge is nice. The penalty to elongated makes me nervous. When I have a few minutes on the pc I'll do some research. I'll try to give you a idea where I'm going with mine. The one thing that sucks about the dip is you do not get the int change to skills until level 3.. I like taking it at 1 for survival and I feel it is more organic to start in one class and then move to the next


Not sure of that bard archetype. I'm just suggesting the bard since you mentioned your primary role would be buffer, bard does that pretty well. I agree the class is meh but it has merits. Investigator is awesome and is a very strong self buffer. but falls very short in buffing the party. For example, haste is a awesome spell since it works on multiple targets.. investigator will only be able to buff 1 person. It really comes down to what you are looking for.


I took first level as a swash, figure better to survive, but favored class is investigator. Traits were Forlorn (+1 fort which i really felt i needed) and student of philosophy.

Hmm a buffer, a investigator isn't great in that regards, you can do self buffs sure but group buffs would involve you getting infusions and honestly it might be more hassle than it is worth. Personally I dont plan to buff anyone other than myself so not worried about that aspect...yeah I'm a horrible person :)

If you are looking for more ranged/buffing I would actually look at Bard, maybe the arrowsong minstrel. Take lingering performance and you should be able to reliably give the party +1 hit and damage while hitting opponents with arrows...you lose a spell every increase which sucks but you get some arcane spells (say gravity bow) Sadly a little less scholarly sadly.. a straight bard could do some things similarly but not quite as good. Basically if you like the idea of a elf-ish character using a bow and casting magic it is pretty nice. Also you can use a wand of cure without having to umd. Sorry playing PFS i always take a character that can do as much as possible since you dont know who will be in the party each time. Anyways later on casting haste for the entire party and such comes in handy, you could focus on dex and a bit of str then cha


Oh for a god I went for the god of knowledge Irori and in a few levels taking deific obedience... it would grant all my knowledge checks +4


Very cool that you found the empiricist investigator, I meant to recommend it but life took over. Ovoid compression is nice but personally there are other feats that might be needed first.

I ended up making a half elf empiricist investigator but I took the one level dip into the inspired swashbuckler. Only time i would recommend a dip since the abilities (namely parry and riposte) stack as you level... Probably will never take another level of it but getting finesse/focus along with panache (opening you up to take fencing grace) at level 1 is pretty nice...at level 4 I plan to take mutagen for a dex boost...kept the skill focus for umd...probably should have went with the will bonus but since we need to roll umd to use a wand it was needed.

Flavor wise I see him basically with a rapier in hand, potions strapped to his chest and wands at the small of his back (leaning towards two wands of cure (in case I roll a 1) and a wand of shield. Spent way too much time debating on this character and getting advice...any help/advice let me know


Think that is a age old question. Really no good answer, best i can say is check the places you have and let people know at the pfs know you are looking for private games...some people use pfs as a screener to see if people are ok enough to invite into their home.

As for the gms following your post..hmm i hope not but then they could and just didn't tell me...same could be said of a private game though too.


I'm gonna be that person and say...go human. Archery is very feat intensive and you really need every one you can get...on top of that you will find yourself wishing for more skill points. I'm playing a level 8 archer inquisitor (sanctified slayer)with the feather domain. You lose judgement but you can study targets for +1 hit/damage and +1 to bluff/knowledge/perception/sense motive and survival. As a move action until 7.. at level 8 take combat trick and pick up manyshot early.

By level 3 you could have the basic 3 of pb, rapid and precise...on top of that your first teamwork feat could be Friendly fire maneuvers... which means allies no longer provide soft cover from the enemy (basically improved precise shot at level 3...take coordinated shot next and it just keeps going. add in long spells like heroism, heightened awareness and magic weapon greater...along with the before mentioned divine favor with fate's favored...honestly a monk wishes he was so good at that point...not getting improved point blank does suck but luckily we have litany of sloth in a emergency. The admited downside is all the variable you need to keep track of. But honestly people do a double take when i fire off a round and each arrow is doing about 1D8+13 (without point blank) add in that i have 4 of them coming at the opponent (5 with hasted boots) At a min +16/+16/+11 (another +16 with haste and that isnt counting point blank or coordinated shot...actually that isnt with bane either)..cluster shot around the corner at least. Level 10 will be nice when i pick up invisibility greater...flat footed opponents for -dex and then +3D6 damage from sneak attack.

Lol sorry for the rant...anyways go human and go straight inquisitor (recommend sanctified slayer) Later on you will regret the zen dip


Hmm don't forget combat reflexes. With bodyguard you could add ac to almost all the attacks. Low levels you can easily add 4 to ac for 4 or 5 attacks and that is no gear


Here is a basic idea which might or not be a tad better...this is a quickie and not overly optimized but is pretty nice. 4 Levels of swashbuckler (bare with me) Without any special gear.. 20AC (saves are kinda poor at 3/8/1) Str 10, dex 19, con 14, int 10, wis 10 and Cha 14...technically you could drop int or str but im wary of that. Inspired might be a better choice and dump cha but kinda so so there. Anyways onwards! +6 init (8 if you take reactionary trait) Feats are combat reflexes, extra panache, weapon focus scimitar, and slashing grace scimitar (inspired would be rapier and you would have a extra feat which might really be worth it) So at 4 you would be at +9 hit and 1D6+4+4(precision) crit on 18-20 so on crit the +4 isn't doubled. now where we get a bit tanky is with the combat reflexes added to opportune parry and riposte..basically you give up a panache to try to beat the attackers hit...if you do you negate the attack and then you can make a attack against him. Add in menacing swordplay to make a attack and as a free action make a intimidate to demoralize the opponent (+9 intimidate)... Level 5 just keep it going.. you get +1 to hit and damage along with crit going from 15-20..I would probably take piranha strike to take a -2 hit but +4 damage which is doubled in a crit. Oh for the heck of it I took dangerously curious to get umd and at 4 I was +10 to use a wand


Why the level in brawler? I know it is the character but no flexibility? Hmm story wise why? (If it is flavor there might be options.) But the thing is you want to be on par with casters it won't happen.


Thought about it but feats are really tight in the beginning...plus it's a tumor


I'm looking at doing a bloodrager with a familiar (greensting scorpion) with amplified rage planning to take skald from here so to get the scorpian rage so i can benefit from amplified rage. So my understanding is that the scorpion with valet benefits from it. But here is my questions... CAN a scorpion take valet? Also my plan was just to keep the scorpion on my person all the time (kinda like riding the shoulder) is that considered to be adjacent to it?


I plan to still bump up UMD but a +6 vs guaranteed is a bit better and since it is already a factor I might as well use it. Right now my feats with that character are a premium Augment rage at level 1, then power attack followed by skald's vigor... So far I have the character made as a dex based investigator or the skald.

I agree Dragonchess the occultist does hit a lot of marks... I would probably have to go a straight occultist...even though the battle host would fit more.


Right and the skald/bloodrager idea, with one level of bloodrager could I use a wand of shield without umd?


Just saw the bloodrager gets shield on how spell list.. that said could I use a wand of shield or still need to umd?


@badbird pretty nice, plan to use a potion of longarm but my potions (or whatever they are called) is limited.

@chaosticket, what paradozen said. I'm with you on the brute fighter, which is why the skald idea is appealing. My worry with it is the ac and it seems front loaded. The occultist seems pretty cool but I worry he might be too much, and I want to understand the mechanics a bit better... really need to get a physical copy of the book.. easier to browse. I like the investigator but feeling a tad overwhelmed with options atm... not a bad thing but still.


So one more night to figure this build out. I'm really thinking about taking the one level dip into inspired swashbuckler...it might not do as much damage as a spear user but I kinda like the idea of a smart guy using his wits and reflexes to take someone down. So level 3 would be the big boost in my skills switching to int based. I've debated on taking arcane training (or really at this point if switching from half elf to full elf might be called for now)

At level 2 I would have 16hp and AC19 Rapier would hit at +7 and do 1d6+4 +4 init and 3Fort/9ref/4 will (cloak of resist +1) Stats are 13 str (for power attack) 18 dex, 12 con, 15 int, 12 wis and 7 cha... Umd would be down to +6 which sucks but next level it would be up to +11

Level 3 he would have a big boost picking up combat reflexes...add that with his 3 panache and I can use opportune parry and riposte often..at level 5 I see him really nasty I would have to burn a feat on extra inv talent for quick study (or maybe wait until 6th) brainstorming and trying to get him to a skill monkey/duelist flair


I know reach is probably the better way to go and really two weapons would be cool but costly. My original idea was to go with a dip in swashbuckler and go rapier..focus on opportune parry and riposte pick up weapon trick for stylish riposte a bit later. So would it be worth going just with a str build with a rapier, picking up stylish later on


At level 5 I could have a potion of heroism going granting me another +2 to hit/ saves and skills...so 5 fot/9 ref/ 7 will along with +16 umd. Thing I'm looking at though Badbird is the character seems like he will need a lot of gold and a second weapon might be too much...that and i need to keep in the investigator weapons for later. Obviously the cloak of resist will be a priority to me. The second wand should give me enough breathing room until my umd is at a spot that a 1 shouldnt effect it (at 5 on a one my inspired bonus (for emergency) would mean i would need to roll 2 or more on the d6


Yeah I officially hit level 2 and might be playing this fri The arcane training is interesting.. would hate to lose the FCB but might be worth it. I'm just nervous of hitting a 1 on the cure wand and suddenly not be able to use it...hmm silly question, if i carried a second wand I could still use it though?

Part of me is kinda thinking about that artful dodge and going a two weapon str/int investigator..probably too much though since I need to be able to access wands or potions

At level 5 The investigator would have +14 UMD (emergency I could add 1D6+1 to it) But a downside to me is saves would be at 3 fort/7 ref and 5 will.. AC would be nice but those saves...

I'll probably glance at the alchemist but not sold on bombs, what is the general opinion on the occultist?


At level 2 right now and +10 umd..if need be I could use a inspiration for +1d6.. but that is as a half elf using my skill focus. Just annoying that they pointed it or like that, normally I see why but I disagree with this one. (Yeah was excited when I saw the alchemist ability and assumed for a min.) Could go alchemist but so so on bombs and liked the investigators flavor

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