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Skylancer4 wrote:

Well to be fair, DSP has been VERY busy with completing thier kickstarter for UltPsi. I got an update for it on March 21st. A background generator might be nice for some but, they have had their hands full for quite some time and I don't recall them ever mentioning anything like it being on the planning board.

From what I have read about their plans, you might better off looking for a fan created list or some such at the moment.

A fan-created list would be just fine. Maybe I'll make my own. If u see one, please let me know.


Katina Mathieson wrote:

Hi there,

I'm sorry for the delay but we are still waiting to receive these books from Dreamscarred Press. As far as I know, they have been delayed with getting their products sent out, so we do not know when we will be receiving them in our warehouse. We'll be following up with them to see if they have any updates for us, but right now we don't have any more details on the delay or when we may get the books.

If you'd like to cancel the order, just let me know and I should be able to help out. Again, I am very sorry for the inconvenience of the wait, but I will be glad to help out in any way that I am able.

Thanks!
Katina

Ok, let's cancel the order for the book then. you have been very prompt and helpful but this is too long to wait for a book that I thought was in stock.


Katina Mathieson wrote:

Hello eggplantman,

Thanks for letting us know about this! It has taken us longer than we had originally expected to receive the Psionic Bestiary hardcovers from their manufacturer. While we have not received them yet, they have been order and should be reaching us any time. Once we have received them, our warehouse will make a point to get them into orders and sent out as quickly as they are able.

If you would prefer to cancel the order, let me know and I will be able to assist you. Otherwise, I believe that your order should be on the way to you within the next week or so, depending on when the books arrive.

Please don't hesitate to let me know if there are any further questions or concerns that you may have in the meantime, and I'll be happy to help.

Thanks!
Katina

Anymore news on this Katina? I would like this book but I really don't want to wait much longer as this order is WAY overdue at this point.


Has anyone seen a class background generator like that found in Ultimate Campaign modified for the psionics classes and races? I've been looking and find it hard to believe someone hasn't cobbled it together yet or that there is no official table from the folks at Dreamscarred.

Any links would be appreciated.

Thanks!


sorry to intrude. I don't have access to the playtest but I wanted to request one thing if possible. Could you make a table for class background generation like that done in Ultimate Campaign for the occultist class? I'm pretty sure there was one in the second book but I want to make sure it makes it into the grimoire.

Thanks.


I placed this order in november for the pdf/book combo and I have not received the book yet as it says it is not in stock. When will this product be in stock? If it is any longer, I would prefer a refund.


Seems legit to me. Make sure there is no more than one swift action a round and releasing grip and regripping something is a free action I believe.


Please count me in! I'd love a copy.


nunchaku?


I've got a ton invested in PF and it continues to please so I'm happy to stay.

Now, I have looked at the 5e books and they are nice. The MM is especially appealing for it's great art but not appealing enough for me to start over with something new.


I remember the orcish shot-put from 3.0 as well. An OP weapon to be sure. There does need to be a few additional racial weapons.

Kind of surprising that the complete equipment didn't have some additional options. As it stands now, each race has maybe one weapon associated with it (dwarves have two). That's not really a lot to work with.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Thanks for reviewing us, eggplantman!

Happy to do so! Really enjoy the products and the effort put into them. I do miss the goetian spirits though I see that yours are a little more approachable while the goetian ones from ToM are quite monstrous.

If you ever come up with a supplement that tackles them as spirits, please let me know.


I did see a player try and play a fighter that focused on the dagger and unarmed combat in 3.5

He tried but it was not working out really well and he was being overshadowed by mediocre characters.


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I really do not want to start over. I'm still enjoying making up characters and playing as much as ever and new books only add to the enjoyment such as the Ultimate Campaign.

Do I tweak a few things? Sure, but I really don't want to invest in a restart.


I always take half as the minimum you can get on a roll for hitpoints. I made this rule because I'm terrible at rolling for hitpoints so I usually end up with a very average hit point character.


Nobody? I thought it was a neat idea despite the fact my "s" key kept sticking.

Anyone have any ideas how the NPC classes can be made more interesting? I just wish there was a little more to them. They are simple so they should almost be used before adding a PC class to a monster or something.


I came up with these just for fun and as a way to better justify the NPC classes' utility and make them more attractive, perhaps even almost desirable for a player character to take a level in them. Please let me know what you think.

Adept: This class represents divine or arcane practitioners who are not quite powerful enough to be adventurers. The class does not progress past level 10 and does not gain the call familiar ability (but see below). At first level, the choice is made wether the adept will be arcane or divine.
- arcane adept: choose spells from either the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Also, choose one class ability from either sorcerer or wizard. The adept gains that class ability but it progresses at half the normal rate (if at all). Arcane adepts cast arcane spells of course and keep spellbooks they follow the rules for wizards for initial spells and spells added to the book over time.
- divine adept: choose spells from either the cleric or druid spell list. The divine adept chooses and casts divine spells from this list. He also gains one 1st level class ability from the chosen class. The ability advances at half the normal rate (if at all).

Aristocrat: Maximum 20 levels. The main ability of the aristocrat is to grant honor and fame (see Ultimate Campaign). The aristocrat can grant +1d6 honor at first level to any person or allied group within a few minute of time. The bonus can be granted only once until the target has achieved a new level. The bonus increaes by an additional +1d6 at every odd level. Likewise, the aristocrat can increase fame in a similar manner by adding an amount of additional fame equal to 1/3 the aristocrat's level (minimum 1). Thi takes a few days of spreading fame and can be used once until the target gains a new level. In addition, aristocrats gain honor and fame at double the normal rate and spend fame in increments of 1d4 intead of 1d6.

Commoner: Maximum 10 levels. This class is humble but works together well with other. At first level, a commoner can use aid another to grant a +3 bonu instead of a +2. This further increases to +4 at 5th level and +5 at 10th level.

Expert: Maximum 20 levels. At first level, the expert chooses one of his class skills to gain a +5 competency bonus. At 5th level, and every 5 levels after, an additional skill gains this bonus and another increases by +5 which may the be same skill or the one just gained.

Warrior: Maximum 10 levels. Warriors are not the most skilled but they are tough. Warriors gain +3 hit points per level. At 3rd level they gain endurance as a bonus feat and gain die hard as a bonus feat at 7th level.

Just some ideas to make them more interesting.


a bard is an excellent choice I think to get a lot done as far as spreading your fame and handling a lot of the charisma skills your wizard may not be great at.

Leadership is problematic for some GMs but I've never had an issue. Allow the GM to roleplay him/her but you level them and make the decisions on what the character is like as far as personality. That is a suggestion but regardless, you need to work with your GM to decide on a way to handle this feat.

As far as kingdom building, using ultimate campaign is a good idea. Read those rules as they are the only ones I know of. Make the rest of your party involved in your kingdom idea. That is how it is supposed to work so everyone is involved and it fills a lot of holes in rulership and is more fun for everyone.


it has not come up yet but I would call male witches by the class name and save the name "warlock" for the class from 3.5 in case I ever saw a version of that I really liked.


I would say yes as a GM but some may argue that technically it would not be possible.

I'd still say yes. It's awesome and hard to argue with.

BTW, I had an alchemist / barbarian once. Never got to play him up to high levels but the potential for a +8 to strength at second level was very attractive. With this option, he could do it even faster and have it going on the first round and attack!


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I don't recommend this fix. Doing that gives the rogue an edge that can be exploited by taking a one level dip from other classes. You always need to consider this.

Granted, the rogue needs some help but this idea may be too far out there to be practical from all perspectives.


I've done the combo with barbarian and alchemist and it is very satisfying. +8 to strength at 2nd level. I highly recommend it.


Here is the rogue upgrade my group has been using with good results. It involves a big change to sneak attack and a minor change to AC.

Sneak attack - First, instead of d6's, use d4's. This is because your rogue always does this damage with any attack. In addition, certain conditions give you sneak attack advantage or disadvantage which adds +1 or subtracts -1 point of damage per die of sneak attack. This result can end up being as low as zero. The conditions should be familiar and include:

opponent Flanked +1
opponent Surprised +1
Opponent denied dex bonus +1
Opponent grappled or entangled +1
Opponent helpless +4 (not cumulative with other effects)
Immune to sneak attack / precision damage -1
Opponent outside normal sneak attack range -1

So, for example a 5th level rogue will always do 3d4 sneak damage in melee combat with each attack. If he is flanking, it is 3d4+3. If he is attacking an elemental, he does 3d4-3 (cannot be flanked and immune to sneak attack). All ranged attack add +3d4 unless he is beyond 30' when they will do 3d4-3 is all.

The second boost is similar to the monk's AC bonus that goes up with levels. It only applies if the rogue is wearing light armor, not heavily encumbered and the rogue does not add his intelligence or wisdom.


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I've been following the thread for a time and once I got past the idea that you were not after homebrew fixes, I liked the challenge.

For one thing, I think you need to look at just the core book to determine if rogues can work. Secondly, you need to see if rogues can work at every level and for most races.

My opinion is that the rogue can work fine but needs a lot of effort on the part of the player to pull it off well. The player has to really think like a rogue by pulling on every advantage and really thinking ahead. Also, the rogue needs to pick a specialty or two and work with it.

The challenge is then to show rogues of various levels and race combinations that work in some fashion and would be fun to play using the core book only. If you can't do that, the rogue needs some fixing.

This build is not the best but I'll give it a try.

Halfling rogue lvl 1

Weapons: longspear, dagger, light crossbow, tanglefoot bag
Armor: studded leather
Feat: Skill focus - stealth

Skills: acrobatics, Climb, Diplomacy, disable device, Escape artist, perception, Sleight of hand, stealth, use magic device

Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 12

Tactics (without this, the rogue suffers): Avoid detection at all costs, Use longspear in melee if possible and fight defensively if allies are unavailable and run at first opportunity. Use ranged attacks first by always carrying a dagger in hand or light crossbow if trouble is expected. Climb to a safe position and snipe if possible.

Rough, I know but this is how the rogue has to be approached. If thrown into an arena, they do not do well and that's why they should never let that happen. This is my contribution.


TarkXT wrote:

I really should have put down that this is in the interest of using optimization to work out how to make them effective.

Not in creating home brew rules.

Oh... I thought that was the whole point of your post. My bad.

There's lots of ways to make them effective. It's just harder to make them as effective at one thing as many other classes or make them the jack of all trades they are supposed to be and not be overshadowed by the bard/ranger/inquisitor/wizard every time. Sometimes this quest is even impossible some might say.

I have seen very effective rogues. The ones that do use all the resources at their disposal every time and play it smart (tough to do sometimes) by using their strengths and applying them well.

Some ground rules to remember to play your rogue well.
1. You are squishy. Remember this and always try to create and keep an advantage. Do not go in without a plan.
2. Sneak attack takes planning so have a plan. No plan = no sneak.
3. Skills are another strength. Learn all you can about getting the most out of them. Scrounge for every advantage.
4. Do not ignore use magic device as a skill. I have seen rogues dominate with careful application of this skill. Again, it takes a lot of planning and investment.
5. Mundane alchemical stuff can open up a lot of options for the clever rogue such as gaining concealment so you can stealth and tanglefoot bags and so on. Be creative.

You may notice from my above list that there is no "build" mentioned. The build is not as important as the approach to the class. The rogue has no innate magical ability nor does he have the hardcore martial training that other classes do so he has to work harder and play smarter than almost any other class. In the end, that is the challenge and reward of playing a rogue well IMHO.


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Here's something I tried. Look to the ninja for some inspiration.

First, the rogue gets a pool of points at 2nd level I've been calling a "wits" pool. The pool is equal to half rogue level plus intelligence modifier and allows the rogue to do the following as a swift action.

1. gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC or reflex saves for one round
2. treat an opponent as vulnerable to sneak attack for one attack only (even if the target is not normally vulnerable to sneak attack)
3. Gain a bonus to a single skill roll or ability check equal to half rogue level (minimum 1) for one round.

Next, I really revised all the rogue talents. They need a lot of help but have potential. Some do not need changing but almost all need a revision of some kind. They should really give rogues an advantage they could not have just by gaining feats. I made the rogue talent "finesse rogue" not only grant the feat but the rogue deals damage with finessable weapons based on dex as well.

That's what I tried.


There are several curses and spells that have greater effects if you have the target's blood. There is a Witch's hex that involves making a waxen image that uses a drop of blood (complete magic maybe?) and the tupilaq construct can be made more deadly with a drop of blood as well.


I have not read all the previous comments but I'll try.

First, I don't like the GM telling me what my actions/reactions are. Please tell me what is happening and maybe what I might assume from what I see but I want to be in control of what I do.

The ever-smoking bottle is a neat idea with a skirmishing character. I assume the villain has blind-fight or the improved version? Without that he has a hard time landing consistent hits.

The bleed damage can be stopped with any application of healing. It can stack but is stopped and has to restart when healed.

With all of that assumed, here's what I might try as a player.

Readied action of any kind whether a spell or sword or anything. The rogue cannot sneak attack because he cannot see him (there is a feat to get around this though. This would be most players immediate strategy. Only if it looks like the party will actually be killed in this manner will we think about running and that will take a long time as the healer gets to go as often as your dervish. I don't see the pressure necessary to make the characters run from the chasm early on if that is your goal. The party will eventually defeat this guy with readied actions unless he if far above their level.

You could add extra pressure to this by giving your dervish some minions with the blind fight, dodge, mobility, spring attack feats. He comes in with the bottle, bleeds everyone and the minions sprint in and attack each party member as well. Puts some extra pressure on them that might be enough for the party to say "we gotta get out of here, we're being cut to ribbons!" Again, if that is your goal.


I understand a lot of your points. The balance to some of them is that the rogue can burn through them really fast. I want the rogue to have some options when he is alone as the main vehicle of SA is flanking so unless the rogue can drop an enemy in the surprise round (unlikely) they will likely be doomed. I've made some modifications. Please let me know what you think.

Wits Pool (Ex): At 2nd level, a rogue gains a pool of points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the rogue's wits pool is equal to 1/2 her rogue level + her Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1). As long as he has at least 1 point in his wits pool, he is treated as having the improved feint feat. By spending a point from the wits pool as a swift action a rogue can gain one of the following benefits:
• One additional weapon attack at highest attack bonus when making a full attack (maximum of one additional attack)
• Treat opponent as being vulnerable to sneak attack for one round
• +4 dodge bonus to AC for one round
• +2 competence bonus to one skill roll, attack roll or saving throw. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every six levels after to a maximum of +5 at 18th level (bonus to saving throws can be used as an immediate action)

The wits pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.


Dabbler wrote:
Is it me or does "wits" look like a better version of "ki"?

It's definitely modeled after the monk and ninja Ki pool.


I've seen a lot of talk here on the problem with rogues and I've thought long and hard about a simple solution to help bring them up to standards of at least some of the martial classes. Please let me know what you think on the suggestion below.

Rogue Class Changes
Concept: a simple addition to make the rogue more viable in combat and to be the skill monkey and jack-of-all-trades it claims to be.

Wits (Ex): At 1st level, a rogue gains a pool of points to represent his ability to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a rogue's wits pool is equal to 1/2 his rogue level + his Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1). As long as he has at least 1 point in his wits pool, he is treated as having the improved feint feat. Uses and costs are detailed below.

1 point – free action
• One additional weapon attack at highest attack bonus when making a full attack (maximum of one additional attack)
• Treat opponent as being vulnerable to sneak attack for one round
• +4 dodge bonus to AC for one round
• +4 competence bonus to rogue class skill rolls the rogue is trained in for one round (bonus increases to +8 at 10th level)
• Weapon attacks are treated as touch attacks but they only deal sneak attack damage, no weapon damage or bonus damage from abilities or feats.
• +2 competence bonus to weapon attack rolls (+4 at 10th level)
1 point – immediate action
• +2 bonus to any saving throw (multiple points can be spent at one time for cumulative bonus)

The wits pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest; these hours do not need to be consecutive.


Queen Moragan wrote:

Interesting, you've put a lot into it.

It does seem a bit complicated at first with 12 Knacks, but is still fairly simple.

It begs a new feat, Extra Rogue Knack.

I also like that they are not Talents, IMO rogues need more Talents.

It's a lot of options but similar to the number of domains, wizard schools or bloodlines and that was the goal to make it kind of like a rogue chooses a specialization.

Extra rogue knack might be OK but hard to juggle and potentially very powerful, like having two bloodlines.


Mr.Alarm wrote:
Dire Weaponry is really really strong. Con hits mixed with any kind of poison would make a really deadly combo. Plus, you don't have now this ability interacts with Pressure Points. This ability struck me as far and above better then anything else you've written.

I agree a little that it could be the best one. According to how I have it written, the effect would stack with pressure points but a dread rogue could only use this ability once per any combat round no matter how often he delivers sneak attack. I made the dread rogue as a good villainous type. I did not see it as that incredible for players but I guess it still could be.

Any suggestions?

I'm always amazed at just how much better the ninja tricks are compared to the rogue talents.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
I like the idea of it. I would have gone a little more general by removing intelligence from Sure Strike.

I thought about that but intelligence seems to be the default secondary rogue mental stat and there are several other rogue abilities that do revolve around it such as master strike so I thought it best to keep with the team and reward smart rogues.


SuperUberGeek wrote:
Interesting stuff

Thanks. Any suggestions?


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I have been noting a lot of talk about the rogue needing something but there is a lot of difficulty in deciding what to do without wrecking everything else.

I have tried to come up with a solution that changes nothing and adds just the right amount of extra flavor, power and versatility to this class. Feedback is much appreciated. I have included a googledocs link and the bulk of the file itself. At the end are the rogues from the NPC codex with their chosen focus and the results of that conversion.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZqnxjDDxkrIU1HzwsZsOxRS75xnu--Hy59M9-vH PmNk/edit?usp=sharing

Additions to the Pathfinder rogue class.

Sure Strike (Ex): At 2nd level all rogues gain the ability to focus their attacks for greater effect. As a swift action, the rogue can add +1d6 damage to any attack. The extra damage is not limited by range and it is not precision damage so creatures immune to critical hits are affected normally. The rogue can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 plus his intelligence modifier. By spending a feat or a rogue talent, the rogue can increase the number of daily uses by an additional 3. At 8th level, the rogue can spend two uses of sure strike as a swift action to deal +2d6 damage and this increases again at 15th to 3 uses for +3d6 damage. Sure Strike damage stacks with sneak attack extra damage.

Roguish Knack
All rogues must choose a specialty at 1st level which offers some options and alters some aspects of the sure strike ability.

Brilliant Rogue -For brilliant rogues, their wits are as sharp or sharper than their blades.
Know thy enemy (Ex): at 1st level, the brilliant rogue can select all knowledges as class skills and gains a +1 competence bonus on any knowledge skills he has ranks in. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): The brilliant rogue can spend a use of sure strike as a swift action for an additional +4 bonus on any knowledge skill check. The number of uses and bonus increases to two uses for a +8 at 8th level and three uses for a +12 at 15th level. When used in this way, the brilliant rogue can make knowledge checks untrained.

Brutish Rogue - Subtlety is lost on these rogues who hit harder and delight in the pain of their enemies.
Bloodthirsty (Ex): at 1st level, all sneak attack dice gained from rogue levels deal +1 point of damage for every d6 but only for sneak attacks delivered with melee attacks.
Sure Strike (Ex): The brutish rogue can spend a use of sure strike to ignore 5 points of a targets damage reduction. The cost and bonus increase to two for 10 points at 8th level and three for 15 points at 15th level.

Charming Rogue - Charming and lucky, these rogues use their good looks and golden tongues to defeat foes.
Natural Charmer (Ex): at 1st level, the charming rogue gains a +1 competence bonus on bluff, diplomacy and intimidate skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): The charming rogue can spend a use of sure strike as a swift action for an additional +4 bonus on any bluff, diplomacy or intimidate skill check. The number of uses and bonus increases to two uses for a +8 at 8th level and three uses for a +12 at 15th level.

Confounding Rogue - These rogues attack in strange manners to keep their opponents off balance.
Unorthodox Attack (Ex): at 1st level, the confounding rogue gains a +1 attack bonus with either unarmed strikes, exotic weapons, improvised weapons or splash / alchemical weapons (choose one). This bonus increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): The confounding rogue can spend a daily use of sure strike as a swift action to trick any opponent within 30 feet and catch them off guard. The opponent gets a will save DC equal to 10 plus half the rogue’s level plus intelligence modifier or they are treated as flat-footed against the rogue’s next attack. The ability is sight-dependent, mind-affecting and can only affect a target once in any 24 hour period..

Dastardly Rogue - These scoundrels use dirty tricks and take advantage even more than regular rogues.
Whatever works (Ex): at 1st level, the dastardly rogue has a +1 competence bonus to his CMD for attempts to perform either the disarm, dirty trick, steal or trip combat maneuvers (choose one). This bonus increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): Instead of using sure strike to cause extra damage, the dastardly rogue can reduce a target’s base speed by 10 feet for a number of rounds equal to 1 plus the rogue’s intelligence modifier as part of a regular attack. The target can resist this with a fortitude save (DC=half rogue level plus intelligence modifier) to reduce the duration to one round. This penalty increases by 10 feet at 8th level and 15th level and the cost increases by one daily use each time.

Deceptive Rogue - The deceptive rogue is mysterious to the extreme and a master spy
Shadow training (Ex): at 1st level, the rogue gains a +1 competence bonus on bluff, disguise and stealth skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): The charming rogue can spend a use of sure strike as a swift action for an additional +4 bonus on any bluff, disguise or stealth skill check. The number of uses and bonus increases to two uses for a +8 at 8th level and three uses for a +12 at 15th level.

Dread Rogue - Dread rogues give other rogues a bad name for inflicting the worst afflictions on their enemies.
Dire weaponry (Ex): at 1st level, whenever the dread rogue deals sneak attack damage he can also deal one point of ability damage to strength, dexterity or constitution. Multiple strikes stack with each other and other effects but the rogue can only deal this damage once in a combat round no matter how many attacks he makes. The amount of ability damage increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level. This effect cannot be used with two-handed weapons.
Sure Strike (Ex): Whenever the dread rogue uses sure strike, the enemy receives a will save (DC = half rogue level plus intelligence modifier) and if they fail they are shaken for one round plus one for each point of intelligence bonus the rogue possesses. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Elusive Rogue - Defense is paramount for the elusive rogue who frustrates his enemies by avoiding all attacks.
Light foot (Ex): at 1st level, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 competence bonus on stealth checks. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): The elusive rogue can spend a use of sure strike as an immediate action to gain a +2 competence bonus to one saving throw or as an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC. The number of uses and bonus increases to two uses for a +4 at 8th level and three uses for a +6 at 15th level.

Fast Rogue - A fast rogue is a blur on the battlefield and uses speed and quickness to overcome enemies.
Quickness (Ex): at 1st level, the fast rogue gains a +1 competence bonus to initiative checks and a +5 bonus to base speed.. This bonus increases by +1 and +5 feet at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): As a swift action, the rogue can spend a daily use of sure strike to move 10 feet. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity but otherwise the movement is conducted normally and is treated as an additional move action. At 8th and 15th level an additional use can be added to increase the distance of this move by 10 feet.

Finesse Rogue - These rogues have learned to use agility and even small size to their advantage.
Flick of the wrist (Ex): at 1st level, the finesse rogue has a +1 competence bonus to damage rolls with any attack that can benefit from the weapon finesse feat or any ranged attack. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): Finesse rogue can spend a use of sure strike to gain a +1 competence bonus to one attack roll that can benefit from the weapon finesse feat or any ranged attack. The number of uses and bonus increases to two uses for a +2 at 8th level and three uses for a +3 at 15th level. If the rogue is fighting an opponent larger than himself, the bonus doubles and also applies as a dodge bonus to AC until the rogue’s next turn as well.

Sniper Rogue - Masters of ranged combat and unseen attacks. Snipers take down foes from a distance.
Ranged Expert (Ex): at 1st level, range at which the rogue can deliver sneak attacks increases by 10 feet. This distance increases by an 10 additional feet at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): The sniper rogue can use the +1d6 from sure strike as either an attack bonus or a damage bonus with ranged attacks.

Thieving Rogue - Even in combat, the thieving rogue cannot resist separating foes from their possessions.
Rogue’s focus (Ex): at 1st level, the rogue gains a +1 competence bonus on disable device, perception, sleight of hand and stealth skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th, 12th and 18th rogue level.
Sure Strike (Ex): The charming rogue can spend a use of sure strike as a swift action for an additional +4 bonus on any disable device, sleight of hand or stealth skill check. The number of uses and bonus increases to two uses for a +8 at 8th level and three uses for a +12 at 15th level.

NPC Codex Rogues
Cutpurse - Thieving rogue
Disable Device +8, Perception +4, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +8
Skulking Brute - Brutish rogue
Sure strike twice a day for +1d6 damage or ignore 5 points of DR.
Sneak attack 1d6+1 with melee attacks.
Skilled Sniper - Sniping rogue
Sneak attack 40 foot range
Sure strike four times a day for +1d6 damage or +1d6 attack rolls with ranged attacks.
Charlatan - Charming rogue
Bluff +13, Diplomacy +11
Sure strike four times a day for +1d6 damage or +4 to bluff, diplomacy or intimidate skill check
Guild Initiate - Fast rogue
Initiative +9
Speed 25 ft.
Sure strike three times a day for +1d6 damage or a 10ft move action with no attacks of opportunity
Cave Stalker - Finesse rogue
Melee mwk short sword +6 (1d6+3/19–20)
Ranged+1 light crossbow +9 (1d8+3/19–20)
Sure strike three times a day for +1d6 damage or +1 attack on ranged/finesse weapons (+2 vs large or bigger opponents +2 dodge)
Freelance Thief - Deceptive rogue
Bluff +11, Disguise +11, Stealth +16
Sure strike four times a day for +1d6 damage or +4 on bluff, disguise or stealth
Trapsmith - Elusive rogue
AC 21, touch 16, flat-footed 15 (+3 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +3 dodge, +1 size)
Stealth +20
Sure Strike five times per day for +1d6, +2 to a saving throw or +2 to dodge AC. Maximum two uses for +2d6 or +4 bonus.
Deadly Spy - Charming rogue
Bluff +18, Diplomacy +16
Sure Strike five times per day for +1d6, or +4 to a bluff, diplomacy or intimidate skill check. Maximum two uses for +2d6 or +8 bonus.
Dancing Dervish - Fast rogue
Initiative +10
Speed 40 ft.
Sure strike four times a day for +1d6 damage or a 10ft move action with no attacks of opportunity. Maximum two uses for +2d6 or 20ft move action.
Contract Killer - Dread rogue
Sneak attack deal an additional 2 points of strength, dexterity or constitution ability damage maximum of once a round.
Sure Strike four times a day for +1d6 damage. Maximum two uses for +2d6. Sure Strike causes the shaken condition unless opponent makes a DC 16 will save.
Dilettante - Brilliant rogue
Knowledge (local) +22, Knowledge (nobility, religion) +19
Sure strike seven times a day for +1d6 damage +4 to any knowledge skill check Maximum two uses for +2d6 or +8 bonus.
Guildmaster - Thieving rogue
Disable Device +22, Perception +21 (+23 to notice unusual stonework), Sleight of Hand +15, Stealth +23
Sure strike four times a day for +1d6 damage or +4 to any disable device, sleight of hand or stealth skill check. Maximum two uses for +2d6 or +8 bonus.
Chain Mauler - Confounding rogue
Melee+2 vicious spiked chain +22/+17 (2d4+5/19–20 plus 2d6)
Sure strike four times a day for +1d6 damage (maximum two uses for +2d6) or once a day per opponent make an opponent flat footed within 30 feet unless he can make a DC 18 wil save.
Unseen Archer - Sniper rogue
Sneak attack 60 foot range
Sure strike three times a day for +1d6 damage or +1d6 attack rolls with ranged attacks. Maximum three uses for +3d6.
Mage Slayer - Brutish rogue
Sure strike three times a day for +1d6 damage or ignore 5 points of DR. Maximum three uses for +3d6 of 15 points of DR.
Sneak attack 8d6+8 with melee attacks.
Masked Lord - Deceptive rogue
Bluff +24, Disguise +24, Stealth +30
Sure strike five times a day for +1d6 damage or +4 on bluff, disguise or stealth. Maximum three uses for +3d6 or +12 to skill.
Dagger Master - Finesse rogue
Melee +1 wounding dagger +19/+14/+9 (1d3+5/17–20 plus 1 bleed), +1 dagger +19/+14/+9 (1d3+5/17–20) or +1 wounding dagger +21/+16/+11 (1d3+5/17–20 plus 1 bleed)
Ranged mwk dagger +21/+16/+11 (1d3+4/17–20)
Sure strike five times a day for +1d6 damage or +1 attack on ranged/finesse weapons (+2 vs medium or bigger opponents +2 dodge). Maximum bonus is +3d6 or +3 to attack (+6 to attack and +6 dodge bonus versus medium or larger opponents)
Death Whisperer - Dread rogue
Sneak attack deal an additional 4 points of strength, dexterity or constitution ability damage maximum of once a round.
Sure Strike four times a day for +1d6 damage. Maximum three uses for +3d6. Sure Strike causes the shaken condition unless opponent makes a DC 21 will save.
Blade Lord - Dastardly rogue
CMB +18 (+26 with disarm (+4 from feats, +4 from whatever works ability)
Sure Strike six times a day for +1d6 damage. Maximum three uses for +3d6. Sure Strike causes opponent’s speed to be reduced by 10 feet per use of sure strike for four rounds (one round if DC 23 fortitude save is made).


I agree with another poster that using several lower-level minions would be better than having one fighter as a partner. The party will focus their tactics on what they see and their action economy will likely wear him out no matter what.

My advice is the give the party so much to handle that they become divided and then dispatch them.

First, set the Inn on fire while they sleep. That's great but also make it so they are torn about saving their own lives or the people who are still sleeping.

Second, minions wait outside and I mean right outside ready to swarm every party member so spellcasters do not have the safety of being left alone.

The rogue uses a scroll of greater invisibility and poison plus bleeding attack and anything else you can think of and he goes after the ones that can likely do something about him, namely the major spellcasters. take them out with a full-attack sneak barrage ASAP and it would probably be best to focus on the healer until he is out of the picture. When the healer is down, move onto the arcane spellcaster. Hide while invisible and make full attacks whenever possible. Don't give the party any details other than they just took a ton of damage.

You could make him a two-weapon fighting rogue. A two-weapon rogue with greater invisibility is a monster.

So, the party wakes up in a burning building, might not even have time to don armor or prepare spells (especially if you wear them out the previous day), they are divided upon saving their own lives and the people in the inn and are immediately set upon by minions who seek to harass each party member while something they cannot perceive is doing horrendous damage to their spellcasters. Very exciting.

This has great potential to kill a lower-level party or really frustrate them if they don't figure out something fast. Have a contingency plan for the rogue's escape cause once they figure out what is stabbing the crap out of them, they will focus everything on him. Keep them divided and vulnerable.


I'd say it is good but so conditional that it is never "great".

I have seen encounters with creatures that add fire damage to every attack and since they made multiple attacks, the fire resistance was golden saving tons of healing. However, when the enemy is not using fire, it's no use at all.

I kind of agree with some other posters in that innate resistance is nifty, but if I can find a way to get it from a spell, I'd rather have something that is always helping me such as a combat feat or other ability.


I have heard from the boards here that the tiger is an exceptional CR 4, maybe one of the best in straight up melee combat but there may be some errors in what you have listed.

First, a tiger can pounce and deliver two claws and a bite but It only gets the option to rake if it can first establish a grab successfully and I don't think it can even do that on the round it actually establishes the hold. If the grab is successful, then it can continue to apply grab damage and the two rakes in following rounds.

Tiger animal companions do not necessarily get all the advantages of tigers. Don't assume they have rake and pounce (I'll have to check).

Same for wild shaping into a tiger. Do not assume they get all the advantages, though at later levels, the wild shape improves and they obviously will.

Still, tigers are awesome and some of the best out there. Overpowered? probably not. The best for their CR in melee combat? Possibly true.


I wouldn't worry too much about it really. My players discovered this a long time ago and have used it in every party since D&D 3.0. They all agreed to split the cost of the wand equally (even though the front-liners use it more but they protect everyone else so it works out I think).

Most parties will try to heal up to maximum after each encounter if possible. If they do not use wands, they will use scrolls or simply a butt-load of potions but they are going to try and find a way to keep those front-liners at near max before the next encounter.

My advice is to not change a thing unless you sense the need to, that is things are becoming way too easy. The wand changes some things in that the party does not need to rest as often so you can have more encounters per day. Also, the party has invested a lot of money in those wands so they should have some benefit from it.

What real problems do you anticipate with the wands? They won't make encounters easier, especially at higher levels but if they do, you can bump them up a bit.

Bottom line of the advice I can give you is that the main change it will make is that the party will want to stop and rest (i.e. regain healing spells) less often, so they may travel faster. This might be the only major consideration.


We encountered it in a desolate area in an oriental themed land and we barely managed to teleport it to another plane of existence where the damn thing is now somebody else's problem.

It was a D&D 3.5 instead of PF but we were not prepared anyway so we did not really bother fighting it and trying to get it out of our lives ASAP.


Lately, I feel totally underappreciated as a DM. My last session may have been my last.

I GM for a large group. Starting the game was not my idea but I agreed to GM every week with my only request being that one of the teenage players coordinate everyone to make sure we can play.

She turned out to be a terrible coordinator. She only thinks of it when we are together for something else.

I level up half the characters. One time, I showed up and half of the rest of them had not leveled up after a two-week break and it took hours when we had only an afternoon to play with.

They talk on their phones, they go into the other room to watch TV if it does not involve their character and they are barely aware of what is going on. I have to remind them what their characters' names are when I call on them.

I put forth several hours at least a week and I own most of the books I use but they are just not interested. They don't read the books to see what their options are and half the time they forget what their characters can do. I have a player with an inquisitor character who so far has mostly just shot a crossbow; he's never used bane or a judgement and I have to remind him about detect alignment.

I also bust my ass trying to make detailed counters and full-color pictures of their characters because I can and I enjoy it but I think I have run out of patience. I can't be the only one at the table that give a crap about the game. I don't know their reasons for playing and I understand if they are not as obsessed as I am but A LITTLE EFFORT OR INTEREST IS ALL I'M ASKING FOR!

I could continue this little rant of mine for a long time now. Most of my players are my family and they have apologized but it really doesn't change anything. They just don't care about the game like I do. I'd love to find some new friends, heck they don't even need to be friends if they would just focus for a while.

Sad. I love the game but can't continue with the people I play with.


Jon Cary wrote:
I recommend seeing if there's a local Pathfinder Society group. It gives you an opportunity to play and network with other Pathfinder players in your area.

thank you. That might work as there isn't even a gaming store in my town.


I might need to find some new players for PF since I never know when my current group can play or self destruct.

Does anyone have any advice on the best way or sites to drum up interested players?


These are cool. GRRR! I want this product but I want access to everything in the bestiary 1 in this format and in a format so I can make as many of the pawns of a given creature that I want.

I have already been scanning the pictures from the bestiary and using them as counters but the full-body pawns are very nice indeed.


I've got some suggestions to help bring the rogue class up to the standards of the many other classes. Sometimes I miss things so I wanted all of your opinions as well.

My goals were to give the rogue something of its own (debuffing), to give it a little more "punch" without relying solely on sneak attack and to make sure not to tie it to a particular ability score.

In doing this, I have borrowed some mechanics from the paladin and the fighter. All of the following are additions. Nothing has been removed.

Deft Strike (Ex). At first level the rogue learns how to make a carefully planned, exceptionally brutal or amazingly precise strike for maximum effect on any type of opponent. Once a day, the rogue can declare a Deft strike before the attack roll is made on any opponent within 30 feet. If successful, the rogue adds double his sneak attack dice as extra damage to the target. For the purposes of Deft strike, this damage always applies even if the target is not currently vulnerable to sneak attack or precision damage. If the attack is unsuccessful, the use of Deft Strike is wasted. The extra damage from Deft Strike does not stack with normal sneak attack damage and like sneak attack damage dice, they are not multiplied on a critical hit.
At fourth level and every four levels after, the rogue can use Deft Strike on additional time per day.

Armor Class Bonus: Much like a monk, the rogue learns how to avoid getting hit whenever possible. The Rogue adds a bonus to his armor class equal to one-fifth of his level. This bonus applies to all attacks but is lost if the rogue loses his dexterity bonus because of being restrained or unconscious.

Sapping (Ex): Rogues can be frustrating opponents and one of the reasons for this is their ability to hinder an opponents best efforts of defenses with their attacks. At 3rd level, the rogue chooses an target ability to affect with his sapping attacks. Therafter, as a standard action the rogue can make a melee or ranged attack and if successful that ability takes a circumstance penalty of -2. The target can spend a move action to rid himself of the penalty but otherwise it lasts until the end of the rogue’s next turn.

Every three levels thereafter, a Rogue can select one additional area that the rogue’s sapping affects and can increase the penalty of any sapping by an additional -1 (even the one just selected). A rogue can only affect one ability with each attack and use of sapping though. Sapping can be combined with Sneak attack or Deft Strike.

- At 3rd level, the rogue can select from the following abilitites: Armor class, Attack rolls, Speed (in feet, round down new speed to increments of 5.)

- At 6th level, the rogue can select from the following abilitites: Ability checks, Dexterity, Intelligence, Skill checks, Strength, Wisdom.

- At 9th level, the rogue can select from the following abilitites: Caster Level Checks, Charisma, Constitution, Damage reduction, Saving Throws, Spell resistance.

The main concerns I have is with the sapping ability in the order that additional sapping targets are gained. I feel this could be a little more elegant but I'm not sure.


GeraintElberion wrote:
eggplantman wrote:

This idea is way overdue and I like a lot of the implementation but the product is limited in a few ways.

First, it does not have every single monster from the main book. No gargantuan or colossal monsters? Unacceptable.

Next, I'm limited in my numbers of monsters. What if I need two manticores or 20 orc warriors? I'm not going to buy multiple boxes.

Paizo needs to make a PDF that has all the monsters from the Bestiary books at the right sizes and perhaps even available as separate downloadable jpg images so they can be printed individually. You could even sell a CD of all the images.

Fiery Dragon is a company that has done just this for 3rd and 4th edition. They made it so you could get all the files in JPG format or custom build a sheet from the images and print it out. When I started playing pathfinder, my major gripe was that a lot of the monsters if PF were not in their product so I had to scan them from the Bestiaries and I did to the best of my ability.

However, if Paizo makes this product with all of the monsters in jpg or pdf format I will buy them right now. That way I would have Paizo's awesome artwork at my fingertips and I could print the encounters as needed. Wouldn't that be grand?

Go here for paper minis, this is a line of tokens.

Tokens are a cheap alternative to minis, you get however many seems reasonable, you will always have to be adaptive when using an unusual range of enemies.

It seems like you might want to lobby Fiery Dragon to do the same good job they do for 4e for the other big RPG as well.

To be honest, it seems quite arrogant and unrealistic to be telling an experienced and succesful company that their approach is 'unacceptable' and explain what they 'need' to do.

My experience is that manners and respect opens doors and opens minds, it would both be more succesful and more pleasant if you suggested alternatives which you thought might be...

Not trying to sound arrogant, just trying to offer a suggestion on how to approach the pdf download. Sorry if it came off as a bit abrasive.


This idea is way overdue and I like a lot of the implementation but the product is limited in a few ways.

First, it does not have every single monster from the main book. No gargantuan or colossal monsters? Unacceptable.

Next, I'm limited in my numbers of monsters. What if I need two manticores or 20 orc warriors? I'm not going to buy multiple boxes.

Paizo needs to make a PDF that has all the monsters from the Bestiary books at the right sizes and perhaps even available as separate downloadable jpg images so they can be printed individually. You could even sell a CD of all the images.

Fiery Dragon is a company that has done just this for 3rd and 4th edition. They made it so you could get all the files in JPG format or custom build a sheet from the images and print it out. When I started playing pathfinder, my major gripe was that a lot of the monsters if PF were not in their product so I had to scan them from the Bestiaries and I did to the best of my ability.

However, if Paizo makes this product with all of the monsters in jpg or pdf format I will buy them right now. That way I would have Paizo's awesome artwork at my fingertips and I could print the encounters as needed. Wouldn't that be grand?


loaba wrote:
eggplantman wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Fix Fighters, they're way too powerful.
(Sprays soda on computer screen) Really? A lot of people say the opposite even after all the Pathfinder upgrades. I honestly don't know if you were being serious or not.
You've been Gorbacz'd... You can try to wash it off, but I hear that the smell lasts for weeks.

D'OH! I was wondering if he was serious or not.


My one gripe right now is that the rogue needs some help. Especially if you look at the Ninja from ultimate combat where the description basically says "yeah, this is a better version of the rogue"

We need more classes that get by without any inherent magic and the rogue should be that class. Lots of situations shut down the rogue's class features and it is no longer the super skill class as bards honestly do most of its jobs better.

That's really my only gripe. I just feel bad for the rogue.

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