Dr Grecko wrote:
ahh right, my mistake
but if we stop arguing we'll never get to 2000 posts
nah man, i understand. also i wouldn't mind if a crafter just crafted for himself. to me, that's what the FAQ ruling says...
talk about absurdist arguments. fees cause TPK! no fee crafting it will kill off your group!
btw, i'm just kidding, just wanted to make a little fun of myself
Dr Grecko wrote:
BTW, i lol'd a little when you wrote "I just flagged you for the truth"
it depends what kind of game you're having. if it is a constant heartpounding combat game, the fighters and cleric are going to wind up ahead. if its a more RP heavy, then its the person with charisma and social skills. if its a normal game, there is a good chance that there would be a TPK because the wizard won't memorize battlefield control spells because someone's going to say that's not contributing, they're going to get into an argument, someone will get dominated... then there will be a good bloodbath
Dr Grecko wrote:
our group pools for consumables like teleports and does free crafting because we're constantly facing 3 or 4 APL +3 monsters. nothing unites a party like the constant threat of death. we have LN, NG, CN bordering on CE, CN, and another LN. because we have all been targeted, we have to stick together or die apart. its a pretty effective party unity tool
Dr Grecko wrote:
yes, i do agree that exaggeration can be a valuable debate tool for exactly the reason you stated, same with attempting to put the other's position in your own words. when i'm having trouble understanding, i attempt that not to put words in someone's mouth, but to see if i'm missing the point.
though in your above situation, it depends who's character's abilities are most needed at the time who will come out ahead
the problem is, the crafter probably isn't the only one who handles selling loot. and probably isn't the only one with appraise. both of those ways could tell you the cost of an item. I've said before, that if i were playing a BSF (big stupid fighter, which really is my favorite character. "hey, you gonna eat that orphan?"), I certainly wouldn't know the difference. I wouldn't even be good with money so i'd probably ask one of my party members to take care of my share of the gold just for fun.
but at some point, the crafter will do something at cost or talk to someone about something at cost, or some of the other players will discuss it with an NPC. there are plenty of ways to find out IG how much things cost to make. so while i understand that everyone doesn't know inherently how much magic is worth, I would rule (as a GM) that you could figure it out with spellcraft, knowledge arcana/religion (for magical knowledge) or appraise.
i've never advocated for holding a crafter hostage. according to RAW, the only way a crafter can make a profit is by selling to the party (excluding hedge magician and any GM who allows a diplomacy check to give you a better price). that's just absurd saying we're holding the crafter hostage...
no more than 1/2 dozen people have said that, and when i said it, it was in jest then to illustrate to the whole, 'its what my character would do' thing cuts both ways.
I really don't mean to be a dick even though this kind of sounds prickish, but i'm not that kind of gamer who won't have fun if you don't play it my way. i'll enjoy a game because i like to game
.... must... fight... urge.... to... digress....
this is incredible. thankyou so much
well, most things aren't dangerous on the other side of a wall, but when it comes to damage potential...
seeking bow negates the obscuring mist and the darkness. but if we're going to talk PVP? it comes to who has initiative and if the wizard has time to prepare.
but if we're talking killing bad guys? archer wins
okay... bunch of stuff here.
assuming again that the crafter isn't grateful enough for his friends disarming/setting off traps that could have seriously ruined his day to give them things he can make at cost, or that he's just ran into a whole new group of adventurers where they really haven't been in that much danger yet together.
In-character - Fee crafting is still a good deal as you point out. but it also brings up as to how much profit one should be making on things you do to help out the other people. if the crafter says he needs a profit, why not the other guy who's researching enemies or trying to get contacts so they can sneak into the nearby castle to grab the macguffin? In character and out of character fee crafting brings up a group dynamic that can be toxic if you're not prepared to deal with it. If your group doesn't care or likes it? GOOD! have fun :)
Out of character there are rules that say you are the only one who can benefit from your craft feat in regards to wealth (this is a paraphrasing, please don't say that they meant for you to charge because you gain a wealth benefit). crafted items count as creation cost for WBL calculations, while non crafted items count as full market cost. Mistwalker has pointed out that this is RAW, and while i don't like it, it is the rules and we have to argue (again as mistwalker has pointed out) from RAW or RAI instead of from how we houserule our own games.
To complete the Above metagame-balance thought - charging allows your character to accrue wealth above the others and suppress theirs. again, if your group doesn't care, great. I always want there to be a level playing field between the characters because no one can feel cheated.
healing is more crucial when you need it than crafting, so it is more easily able to extort money. if you're down to 1hp or 1wisdom or 1str, it is pretty easy to get a high price from some of those healing spells especially if there's still combat yet to come.
the rogue can take some treasure without letting the others know and thus gain 'compensation' for his/her services. the tank/direct damage monkey gets the most screwed because their roles are straight forward. the only way they're going to get paid for their services is if they let the monsters kill their friends and loot the bodies after cleaning up. it has been made abundantly clear that no one is willing to pay for charging up into the face of death to keep it's attentions from squishies or cutting it into ribbons, so the only recourse is to strike at the moment needed, or find someone else who appreciates the labor.
this turned into a longer post than i intended....
I tend to make the most powerful characters in my party too, doesn't mean you'll not need them at some point. either that or you're playing with some severely unoptimized characters. if you take a decent archer, they will outdamage a wizard like no one's business in basically every way possible.
if your party isn't pulling their fair share, it is probably in your best interests to make them more competent than take the whole burden onto yourself. one unlucky roll and the whole adventure is screwed (hold person or icy prison)
but yeah, not to be a dick or anything, but this is beside the point. if you're running the whole show, it doesn't matter whether you do things one way or the other
Dr Grecko wrote:
one was being intentionally provocative and should be flagged.
when we attempt to breakdown eachother's arguments it is to illustrate our understanding of the concept, not to intentionally exaggerate to absurdity, that's not constructive.
Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
alot of this is also assuming the crafter is a wizard, which I made my crafter be a fighter. fighter's don't really lose much crafting cause they have tons of feats.
I think the point AD is making is that if you start charging for something, why can't someone else charge for something else? if he's not making that argument, how does fee crafting compare to the slippery slope argument? cause i'm sure the guy with the out of combat healing could have most of the group by the balls if he says, "give me 50g or i won't heal you."
Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
actually in our current game, this is how we're playing. pool everything we get and then split it up.
the other players are really glad for this cause i've been making a hundred thousand a month, and am about to multiply that by 3 with a couple choice items. so instead of my character being VASTLY stronger than the rest, i'm splitting it evenly with the party. but before the game we decided we would share everything
it depends at what level. craft rod, at its level, can equal out that metamagic feat. craft wonderous items can equal out toughness almost when you get it.
craft wand isn't worth it (as i think selgard put it: it is like balling up loot and throwing it at a target).
now as you level up and you have more wealth feats do become less replaceable, but their bonuses become less consequential. especially when you have untyped bonuses like orange prism ioun stones
okay, attempt 2.
I understand that feats are important. I am currently working on a build of a high level air mage and i have 4 item creation feats. 1 is cause of concept, and the other 3 because they're just too strong to not have. it is kinda painful when I don't have the elemental substitutions i want, and other metamagic feats that i really enjoy, but looking at the character, any less effective wealth, and I would drop in effectiveness a load. (wow, does that sound like feces to anyone else?)
2nd, i'm pretty sure the FAQ says that crafted items count at 1/2 wealth for WBL calculations. I don't remember if it says for the crafter or not full disclosure. i'll look for it later
3rd, the other party members that don't need the feats do get to shine a little more in combat, but if no one had the feats, the whole party would shine less, but that's if your GM allows your group to benefit from your crafting feat. But i don't see that as a problem, because i like giving other people the spotlight. not meaning to imply that other people don't, I just happen to be a veteran at a table where there are few others. I enjoy thrusting the newer or other players into the forefront. Even if we're in an evil game where the other players could backstab me, i think it would be more fun to let them do it and say, "why? i trusted you..." as i die.
I don't see any group playing out the day to day activities of their characters over a week, maybe a day, but not for much longer. GMs I know say, "what are you doing?" and then we RP important events or if the players want something lax we can throw a party or sit at a bar and RP that
yep, we have a fundamental disagreement. I didn't mean to sound rude if I did
well, if you give the crafter all the wealth, isn't that better because he's much stronger now?
action economy is my answer to that. you need 5 people doing strong actions instead of 1 character doing very strong actions
there's an error in your math, everyone gets the same powerup by the crafter taking 1 feat. but that's just how I play, and it is not RAW that everyone can get the same benefit.
crafter is not weaker, everyone else is stronger. And if we're going to start arguing now about the GM negating every bonus you'd give the party, that's a completely different can of snakes
argh! internets ate a long post i had.... it will be a bit before i am willing to retype that
We did this in our recent game. until i got followers and cohorts :) now i do all the crafting for everyone
I think he's saying that there are other RP forms of 'payment.' you don't need to charge money, especially if you're in a group that doesn't like the concept of paying to craft. but that's a group dynamic thing, and i'm not going there
Wealth should be a factor in how encounters are built, but show me a GM that knows exactly how much wealth the party has and then designs the encounter, and i'll show you a GM that has recently done an audit, or has players that tend to write down more items on their sheet then they get.
crafters who charge do get extra WBL. in the math you showed me, the party would have about 1/2 the wealth because crafted items count as 1/2 when it comes to WBL.
I did say that i'd kill the crafter under some circumstances where the crafter's death would benefit my character, or satisfy him in some regard. But that would be if we were playing one of those competitive games where the party isn't three-musketeery. if i don't like the crafter charging and everyone else does, i'll make my own crafter. I love crafting
did i mention i love crafting? cause i really love crafting
and I don't know where you're getting that crafting makes you less strong somehow. even if you craft all wealth for everyone in the group, that doesn't make you less strong than any of them, it makes them stronger.
example: sir phillip and his buddy ortho have been travelling and fighting together. sir phillip notices that ortho's sword isn't as good as it could be and ortho has money. phillip creates a new sword for ortho with that money and now ortho can cleave things a little better than phillip can. that's okay because phillip is a trip build and they both have paired opportunist causing their storm of attacks of opportunity just that much more effective and them to become a fighting force our GM now fears
except for the fighter crafter i've been playing...
a blacksmith farmer's son who has taken up adventuring
Dr Grecko wrote:
.... I really don't like that FAQ ruling...
you do gain a benefit, but if you don't think you gain a benefit from crafting for your friends i don't think you need to keep in this discussion. the MOST IMPORTANT thing in pathfinder is action economy. the SECOND most important thing is wealth. crafting gives you a huge benefit, and are you now arguing it doesn't? no offense intended but i'm done... I can't argue with someone who has a fundamental disagreement about the usefulness of crafting
but with higher encounter level with reference to the party does equal more experience. so if the DM is rebalancing with stronger monsters, that equals more experience
crafters aren't weak. even if they craft for the whole party, they don't end up being weak, at least from my experience. but again, if the GM balances the challenges, then would you rather gain levels faster than slower? as that's what the GM is doing when he rebalances the challenges.
from an IC perspective the parties strength =/= your strength, you have no way of knowing if these people will betray you, get dominated, mind controlled, turned to the dark side, become undead, die, etc. The more of your personal power you funnel into them the less likely your own survival becomes in the long run.
sounds like you're playing a competitive game within the party, which isn't the type where you want the rest of the party to be stronger than you and they can steal. I can have fun with that, but that's not the type of game i wanna play
but if you're cooperative gaming, you can do something to help with those dominates, like a protection from evil spell, or save bonus stuff
yeah, I remember all of that "kill the fee crafter" talk. i did it at some point but that was after talking to the player, talking to the GM, and the crafter IG making my character feel cheated. Otherwise i'll enjoy the game
why do you think a stronger party = weaker crafter? I don't get it. I've always played crafters because crafting makes you much stronger. of course taking all the crafting feats does gimp a character, but one or two is fine.
I don't like charging for any feat or ability... it just sets up a bad precedent.
lets see if i can address everything
for a team you don't want stronger, then you don't have to craft for them. if you craft for all of them, each can benefit from the crafting feat. but the operative word is can. if you don't like your team, then you can have them buy their stuff from someone else, there's lots of good excuses as to why you can't craft for them.
according to the FAQ, the only benefit your party is supposed to get is the custom items, no WBL benefit. but if you selectively apply the crafted items should be included in WBL at cost, then you can have the math add up anyway you want it to.
your adventuring party being stronger is a benefit for the crafter, not just for the other party members unless there's PvP, because everyone is able to pull more weight. the benefit to the crafter from a stronger party is the ability to take on stronger challenges, thus gaining more wealth and power for him/herself.
fee crafters can do what they want. if its cool with your players, have fun! as long as your gamers like it, then go for it. but it is dipping into the loot, and charging your other characters for using a feat, no matter if it takes up your character's time, like charging people extra for rez or anything else that takes a lot of time. downtime is handwaved anyways. Everyone contributes, and even if crafting is by far the most powerful feat in the game no matter how you interpret it, we don't tend to split loot based on how much someone contributes. unless you support that, which is fine, i just wouldn't play that way.
Did i address everything?
Actually, he has somewhat lax with other players, dropping items randomly that benefits them specifically. He claims he randomly rolls, but there is a subtle favor to other characters. I told other players, but they assumed I was paranoid.
I assumed as such. but whatever, if it becomes worse, you can take a hiatus from that game. but if you can enjoy it...
sadly you're going to have to learn to have fun with him trying to negate you, if what i assume is going to happen
the crafter gains no benefit in relation to the rest of the team, but gains a huge benefit
with my interpretation of the FAQ, WBL remains the same, crafted items count as their crafted price for wealth calculation. that's still a big benefit to the crafter
now in my games? crafters can craft for whoever they want, whenever they want, which is a bigger benefit
Ring of protection
This ring has a perverted sense of love imbued in its heart. this was a wedding ring from a noble lad that he lay on his commoner love. a sweet story of forbidden love, as his family forbade it eventually, the head of his family, the grandfather, disowned him, and renounced his inheritance. Disgraced, he left the town with his love hoping to have a lovely life. but he was not a strong man, nor particularly adept with his fists, and any money they were able to acquire soon was out of their possession. but his love had a different vision of the future. she sold her ring and was ripped off, and this was the last straw. she torched the shopkeeper's home while he lay in bed and walked into his shop to get her ring back. and evil glint now in her eyes, she was the protector of her once noble patron. somehow she was able to kill hardened soldiers with ease, and with her newfound power, they had an idea to get his family's wealth. together the returned in the night and slaughtered his whole family and took control over all the possessions. no one dared to question him as he claimed his family's name and it's prestige as all who did died. they lived happily ever after.
a robber robbed the tomb they were buried in many many years after they died so this came into circulation
Ring of the Beast Backstory
this ring once adorned the companion of a young elven princess. this small girl kept many animals, but this was the marking she put on her favorite Wolf, Kinsly. She bought him from a cruel carnival and tamed him from a savage beast into a loving Guardian. she gave the ring as a token of her love and devotion to the animal. then, tragedy struck her line. A drow raid at night took the lives of most of her family, and her retainers fought to keep her safe. but as the drow neared her room in the tower, the wolf grabbed her and ran. as they jumped off of the 50ft high balcony, it seemed like the wolf grew. miraculously surviving the fall, the wolf took off with the young princess dying from exhaustion and wounds as it got to the next village. having nothing but what she had on her, the princess was forced to sell the ring, not knowing the noble spirit of her animal left some of his essence behind making it magic
wow... I don't know if it would work. i'm sorry. this dude obviously is angry about his character dying or has had a chip on his shoulder about you for a while.
first off, you can ask your other characters to help you get your items.
2nd, you can tell him that if it is a personal beef, y'all can work it out. you killed him after a long talk with other people who thought you would be okay with it. you can ask him what would make it better
3rd, if he really thinks your a powergamer, then either your other characters aren't very effective, or, again, your GM has it out for you. one of the ways I have dealt with it, is talking to the GM about how the challenges and your character interact. a powergamer would have bonuses way above normal level.
lastly, you can take a break from the game until he cools down
sure your math looks fine. but since we differ on our interpretation of the FAQ, we are going to have to agree to disagree
yes, very much so. i'm all for rewarding RP, i think that crafting is super powerful though
the intent of the FAQ is that the crafter have more wealth than the rest of the party. and I think the FAQ says that crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL, and i think that applies to all crafted items, not just for the crafters
custom items are worth it, don't get me wrong, but my objections are generally of a meta origin