I think I'm with what people have said before in that the biggest problem with the shaman right now is that it hasn't really defined itself in terms of what it brings to the table that I as a player cannot get from other classes. As it stands I remember seeing this class prior to release and thinking it sounded like a niche I was already filling with the witch, oracle, druid, various cleric builds, and even the adept when I needed an NPC one. After the launch the description gave me this awesome image of a unique shinto priest style class focused on dealing with spirits and as people have talked this interesting caster who has less power of their own and more are acting as the vessel for the powerful spirits that they commune with. Unfortunately as of right now though, the class still feels too much like an oracle and as such still feels like it hasn't stepped up to that image the playtest has presented us with.
I'm with people on the witch list. As it stands it has the most appropriate spells, is one of the composite classes, and could just have some of the options added in. As it stands spells like haunting mists and mad hallucinations fit much better to a spirit caller then flame blade or good berry. After that all that would be needed is to just add some of the extra spells in that it's missing like animate dead and the protection spells which even exist in a lot of the patron options and could just be either ported over into the list proper or wrapped up in the spirits you choose.
The other thing is that using the witch list would help tie the shaman back into its 2 parent classes since as it stands right now the shaman is basically related to the witch in name only and has more in common with a cleric/oracle & druid.
Anyways I was working on an encounter list for my current weekly game and started reading up on the glyptodon, basically a massive armadillo with a scaled tortoise shell and started to wonder if one could make a suit of full plate from the scales collected from one and if so what would be the differences?
Any ideas from people would be greatly appreciated.
Actually they do get wild empathy, but at second level which feels really odd for a class so focused on animals and its animal companion. It feels like something they should not only get at first but something that should be vastly better then the regular, maybe allowing them to use it more then once per day on a creature or as a bluff or intimidate check as well.
I'm talking about including the teamwork feats on top of the improvements I've discussed above. As it stands the teamwork feats we have aren't that substantial and the design team has already talked about adding more. I would love to see us not only get some more feats that allow hunters to fire into the mayhem their animal companion is in but maybe also allowing them to treat others as if they have their teamwork feats in order to activate them.
I like the idea of it being the spirit who does all the work while the character is basically the vessel they use to interact with the physical world. Makes for a very interesting character dynamic with the character being interestingly subservient to these "other" entities. Like besides the standard idea of the shaman I could totally see some other interesting options like shamans of Zon-Kuthon who become possessed by the spirits of shadow in order to aid their community or mad shamans possessed by the dark dreams of dread Cthulhu or maybe even Desna.
Add on to that more abilities to control and handle "Creatures of Nature" i.e. animals, fey, aberrations (native animals of alien ecology's), and undead along side throwing out outsiders and we'd have something really cool.
I believed I mentioned this earlier but a name change to something more evokative of an animal trainer (aka beastmaster) converting the character to a more support role while making the animal the combat heavy is also something people seem to be digging.
Also since people seem to be digging on it now I'm going to say it again, magical beast, aberration, and dragon options that have 2 Int. Let them have those special abilities like a basilisk with it's gaze or a drake with some breath weapons would be awesome. Hell even letting normal animals take like half dragon templates would be cool. On the new creatures front the initial page cost wouldn't be too bad since they wouldn't have to reprint the old growth sheet for animal companions since they have mentioned before that they are assuming customers already have the PFC. All you have to do is print out about a dozen simple magical beast stat blocks like they did in the pfc for normal ACs and mention that you use d10's, a Fighters BAB, and the changed saves and you're fine.
Hey just catching back up on the conversation but wanted to talk about the spells list discussion again for a minute.
What is the reasoning behind not just giving the shaman the witches spell list? As it stands that spell list seems to have most of the spells mentioned before as being essential to the class like the protection spells and some of the nature based ones as well.
And that's part of what I think is the great detriment of it all, that it's so easy for us to picture evil outsiders meandering about anywhere and everywhere and yet the good ones are just so hard to see doing anything.
Right now I'm flirting with the idea that they might run into one that is just visiting. Imagine a Monavic Deva who has come to the material plane as part of his route to protect good and has finished his work early so he decides to go visit the grand canyon or another unique and majestic landmark of the area just to soak in its beauty.
Maybe there's one that stops by to help his favorite pet civilization, like he has whenever he has the free time for thousands of years. Now the natives think he's god giving them divine inspiration but in reality his antic protecting them and leading them towards better lives are just his hobby rather then his job, like a big version of an ant farm.
Finally you could have collectors or hunters, angels who look for great beasts of evil to hunt and kill for both honor and glory or just great hunts. I mean Cernnunos is the god of the hunt so their have to be angels out there who do enjoy it and most likely do go on hunts periodically.
James Jacobs wrote:
So what like groups of 4 or so?
Also do you see them as hunting together? As it stands they are pretty nasty beasties in their own right and not much on the material plane would be able to stand against them.
Right now there aren't nessecarily a lot of demons per se it's more like they are around and rare, sort of considered evil spirits of the land that can bring misery and woe. Think like classic representations where they are like primordial spirits, wandering the material plane and doing whatever they want really until humans roll around they want to mess with.
Now I wonder what angels and other good outsiders do on their free time and are on the material plane? What things would interest them here besides helping people?
Do you see Athachs as predominately solitary creatures with them gathering only rarely or as more social creatures like people, with their survival dynamic built around social groups and needing said social as an integral part of their survival?
I'm working on a random encounter table for my current game and I'm thinking on adding angels to the list along side other outsiders as rare and terrifying encounters to run into on the open road. The problem I'm having right now is thinking up multiple interesting ways for these types of encounters to go. On the one hand I want them to be angels but I also want them to feel equally terrifying and inscrutable for a lowly caravan of PCs to run into similar to if they ran into a Vrock or other demon or daemon. The other thing I'm wondering is what does a good outsider do on the material plane if not on a specific mission from heaven or one of the other outer planes? With the evil outsiders it's usually easier since mayhem and suffering are their bread and butter but what about the good ones, especially if they are roaming around an area that is sparsely populated?
Any advise or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
When you guys build encounter tables how do you gauge when you have hit the maximum number of possible encounters on it?
When you think of random encounters does anyone else break them into "themes", i.e. by what kind of tone you want to take with these creatures during an encounter or by what types they are?
The plan is to build it as a Gnoll tribe leader that I can use as a leader for a random encounter of gnolls.
Am I the only one who wants to see a bit more diversity in the hexes and lower level abilities granted by the spirits? As it stands I feel like every option I've read so far gives me,
1.) a 1d6 touch attack that does one of the base energy damages 3+Cha times per day
2.) a debuff that throws a status condition on a target
3.) a ward that grants some sort of defense buff.
Now don't get me wrong having those can be nice but when I sit down to read it and try to get inspired to build a character it makes all those options blur together and feel samey. I would love to see some more different options outside of the above 3 if for nothing else then to help make each spirit option more distinct from its contemporaries.
So just got done reading this a little while ago and I have to say really am digging on the skald.
My one question is is there any way to increase the Perform options for their bardic abilities? As it stands I don't know if I could convince them to allow a Skaldic wardancer but I would love to be able to build an orc war piper, trundling into battle with a set of bag pipes under his arm and playing the war tunes of his people.
I feel like the other thing this class really needs is something unique that makes it stand out from it's parent classes. As it stands the hunter still plays and feels a lot like a mash up of its parent classes and is pretty much described in terms of them (i.e. it is a toned down hunter or ranger or a nerfed version of an inquisitor with the animal domain etc.) and I feel like that is where the big issue is. If we really want this class to stand on it's own 2 feet the classes main theme needs to become more prominent and unique like those of the revised arcanist or the swashbuckler which should help it a lot.
Some of the things I would really love to see is maybe converting the hunter to a more support character in combat while the animal gets to do more of the heavy lifting possibly through giving it some more buffs or allowing things like animal Int level magical beasts as options or some other ways to buff its stats. Meanwhile the actual hunter should have more options that allow them to be this support/field control monster, maneuvering around the battlefield and placing traps and field control that force their targeted prey to engage their monster the way they want them to.
Just my 2 cp on this.
Also has anyone from the Dev team talked about the possibility of having new Animal Companion options that include certain magical beasts, aberrations, or other animaly monsters with 2 Int?
Just some stuff off of the top of my head. Please critique and comment.
Kickin' em' to you!: You and your cohorts have trained in repositioning enemies, learning how to maneuver them and push them into your allies assaults.
Fast ball special: You know how to use your raw strength and your allies small stature to get them quickly where they need to go.
Hey I don't know if anyone brought this up but has their been any talk about expanding the options for weapons that can grant panache? As it stands I saw this and totally thought this would be a great class to use to represent an african stick fighter.
Also on Opportune parry couldn't they just put that this penalty only affects targets who's size is smaller then small or larger then medium? that way small characters wouldn't be adversely affected by this penalty over medium sized swashbucklers?
Pathfinder Adventure Path #77: Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth (Wrath of the Righteous 5 of 6) (PFRPG)
christos gurd wrote:
why trade spellcasting for traps, why not just give them traps too
That's kind of what I was suggesting but I would want them to expand it and make sure to release more trap options to go along with the class. At the very least I would want them to reprint the new traps we got in kobolds of golarion.
As for alongside spellcasting I think I would either want the casting list to be shortened down some more to say 4 levels or removed as a way to help further draw the class out of the shadow of the druid and ranger. Also without them it gives the devs more room to go nuts since you don't have to balance the Animal companion teamwork thing against also having casting ability.
The black raven wrote:
The magical beast AC is a very good idea per se, but it will need the Devs to stat many of these as AC, which can be quite time and space consuming IMO. Not sure it will make it into the final version, even though that would be great.
I don't know. Considering the amount of focus this class has on the whole animal companion abilities and how they seem to already be taking advantage of the fact that this book is an add on by not reprinting material that is in other books like the CRB I could see them fitting it in.
Now that being said, I couldn't see them remaking all the magical beasts as options but cherry picking a few classics from literature and favorites from gaming history would be very in their wheel house. Taking something like Owlbear, Hydra, Basilisk, Rust Monster, and maybe another 6-10 more and they would have a nice roster to give players plenty of character combinations. Then all they have to do is just make sure to give a small section where they mention the swaps of HD from d8s to d10s and the changed saves and they are golden. With that they should still clock in at a page count at about that of the Druid, maybe less.
The idea of a class that breaks magic to their whim and pulls it apart as a core concept works so much better and does really make it feel like a profession in and of itself.
Now am I the only one who can see a character that learned the arts of the Arcanist through the horrible scrawling of the elder things and their understanding of the Universe a la At the Mountains of Madness?
I like that latter point. What about making the DC start low and scale up with each successive attempted knockout blow? Also maybe the brawler could get it earlier but instead it causes the nauseated and then the staggered condition?
I think one of the things that would help a lot is a name change and a bit of rebranding for the class. As it stands the Hunter title runs pretty close to something players have already been making with rangers, inquisitors, and even some druids for years instead of what it sounds like it's supposed to be, a power team of a well trained animal handler and his custom reared beast companion. So why not change its name to something like the Beastmaster and play up how they search the world for the perfect breeds of various animals in search of crafting the perfect breed of specialized beast.
Honestly I love the idea of having traps here in place of or in some modification to the druid spell list. Having the character act as this support, trapping, ranged character while the Animal companion works as the heavy lifter in direct combat would be very cool and provide them an interesting and unique form of field control and support that doesn't just leave them sidelined while the animal companion fights and he sits in the back. Also it could add a lot to the trapper concept we already have so mores the merrier.
Another thing we could get would be something like a bonus on attack and damage rolls against targets your animal companion is running down, have it represent their synergy in combat.
Finally I would love to see some feedback on the idea of granting them low Int magical beasts or other creatures as animal companions on top of the standard animal and vermin options. Nothing would differentiate them more from their parent classes then the option of having more fantastical beasts at their sides and the increase to HD and BAB would help a lot in allowing the creature to be the heavy. Could even say that it's part of what distinguishes them from the druids and rangers since they say lack the same code of ethics that would prevent the former class from taking on such unnatural animals and have the focus, dedication, and skill at training the beasts that the latter might lack due to more focused training in other areas.
But this assumes that all fighters are the leaders of men type, fighters are meant to be the best of the best at their particular form of combat not necessarily the one leading the men, developing the tactics or leading the army. That role is something far better filled by classes like the cleric, cavalier, or even bard who have more of the skills and background in leading men and standing back and seeing the big picture. That being said though you can still do that with them if you want you just invest in something like profession (soldier) to get them the skills to run those skills without need to invest in all the other social skills.
as for the other crazy things they do those abilities are matched by buying the magic items they were going to buy anyways. You need to scale that ledge or climb that wall? potion of spider climb. Jump chasms? boots of striding and springing gives you the flat bonus you need or you can just get a potion of jump or a scroll of it and have you wizard cast it on you and you are ready for all the jumping you need.
In the end the need for the extra points really doesn't matter, they get all the points they need and their investment in solid equipment and proper use of teammates gives them everything else they need.
Less Lawful, More Good wrote:
I don't know. I wouldn't say that the fighters low skill points means he's dumb, it just means that he and his class are focused on combat over those other skills. As for outside of combat, just because they lack ranks in the various skills doesn't mean they cannot participate in diplomacy, intelligence gathering, or any of the various other things you do when not stabbing monsters. Most social interaction checks against normal people are pretty easy considering the low to average Cha of most common folk and even if that isn't the case rolling to aid is only a DC 10. As for other things like intelligence gathering and all that they can still tag along and participate, acting as muscle for the party face, pretending to be the silent warlord that the bard is speaking for, showing the rogue how to carry himself and his weapons when in formal attire and not look like an idiot, the list goes on and on. Really I've found that usually what stalls out the fighter in out of combat scenarios has little to do with his class choice and more to do with them either not wanting to be engaged in the encounter or having other players not want to co operate with them.
Yeah I feel like that is a typo they will have to be correcting here at some point.
Actually the favored enemy thing is something that a rangers animal companions already get as part of their class.
As for the rest I'm with you on the aspects but feel like they need WAY more options that are more interesting and viable as you move along then what we have right now.
As it stands I would love to see them mess with the animal companion thing more and maybe even give them more animal companion options like 1 or 2 Int magical beasts, aberrations, and dragons.
Climb and Swim are both class skills that can be done untrained and are strength based which is something a fighter is already pretty good at.
Survival is a skill that can be done untrained and getting along in the wild is a DC 10 and assuming you only put 1 rank in it allows you to determine where north lies in relation to you. Combine that with a map and you've got your food and how the hell to get home.
Knowledge of any given location is a skill encompassed under various skills such as Knowledge local or geography and knowing the basic knowledge of those places including local laws, rulers, and popular locations is a local check with a DC of 10 which you can do untrained.
As for creatures there are some creatures that can be classified as so common that they are treated as having a DC of 5+CR allowing said fighter to hit their DC with ease.
As for your assertion of preschool level understanding I'm sure that still puts him ahead of a lot of other common folk and his skill with a blade would more then make up for his inability to tell the exact way in which a seps poison dissolves your blood vessels. On top of all this he would likely look for companions who to travel with who might be able to fill in the gaps he has in his knowledge who would also benefit from his various skills including his willingness to run headfirst at a dragon and skill with cleaving it's skull off.
Now I think I have gotten most of the skills you mentioned but if I missed some feel free to point them out.
Anyways the real point is that the fighter and brawler are fighters first and foremost, they are men, women, and smizmars who make a living beating the living tar out of people and honing their skills with various weapons up to and including their own bodies. They are in a profession where their office is a battle field and their garbage bin is a charnel pyre, they hire men and women with greater knowledge of the various species and outsiders when they need to put down said creatures and use the knowledge of those people to be more efficient at that job. In essence if they wanted to be better bakers or potters or swimmers or rock climbing lumberjack historians they would be that, but they chose to wake up every morning and go to work with a battleaxe or whatever they use asking themselves who am I going to have to fight today?
I'm actually surprised with how much I'm digging this class considering how reticent I was about it prior. The class manages to fill this nice niche in between Sorc and Wizard and doesn't really overshadow either thanks to it not being able to completely do the various specializations or bloodline abilities each class has. On top of that it makes for an incredibly interesting metamagic master down the road and I'm actually a fan of the fatigue from over use of blood power since it creates a nice risk reward to going all out with your new shiny ability and helps keep them from being able to use those bloodline powers as often as their sorc brethren would.
As for story I see the arcanist as the guy who's blood wasn't powerful enough to grant him spellcasting on its own so decided to learn wizardry as a way to force it to the surface. The Arcanist is the true master of arcane magic because he has it buried deep down in his blood but had to learn the basics of actual magical theory in order to even be able to tap into it. He is the mage who sees his destiny laid out before him and will not be denied by anything even not having a strong enough blood connection to a powerful force as an obstacle to stop his rise.
But that's not the case at all considering that many of the skills you mentioned above are skills the fighter can and is often already pretty good at without dropping a point into by the very nature of their build (Swim & Climb) and are things that any class can do untrained. Basically the fighter comes with plenty of juice to already do most of the skills you mentioned very well without needing to invest a point in them so you are left to invest in those skills that either require a point to use or are things they aren't really good at usually like Cha based skills.
See I like it as a way to differentiate classes and though I agree with you on the rogue thing I find that most of the classes (Save the Cleric) have more then enough skill points to get what they need to get especially by the mid game. This is compounded by how many easy ways there are to get skill points and get decent bonuses with the class skill bonus and the favored bonus easily giving you the few errant points you usually need for those unique skills that your fighter might need without harming their other functions. I mean looking at the brawler the only 2 essential skills you might want to keep maxed are Acrobatics and Perception which leaves you with that free favored point to drop into whatever errant skill you would like to invest in for your brawler assuming you are playing a non human and only have a 10 or ll Int.
So would you prefer that all 2+Int skill point classes just be bumped up to 4+Int?
If so doesn't that just take away from some of the other classes as we move along by shrinking the gap between the amount of skill ranks various classes get or begin to step into the territory of other classes or archetypes that are more focused on being good at a wider range of skills and having a lot of points to do that with?
So quick question, can a witch take any of the shaman hexes as part of their natural progression?
Also when a shaman with the bone spirit uses their shedding soul ability do they leave their body behind or does all of them just become ethereal?
So initial impression upon starting reading is that the shaman is either meant to be something akin to a Shinto priest-drawing power from a belief in concept that everything has a spirit and appealing to them might bring them power- and the most round about way to make a druid (a divine spellcaster that draws power from the natural elements of the world and created from the oracle and witch class).
Why not? For what reason would a Brawler NEED to consistently have 4+Int skill points outside of the optimization reasons? It's not a class that i think people will be running to for its wide variety of skills, this is the class you play when you want to make that dude over their to learn what the inside of his skull tastes like when you drive your fist through it and don't care about whether you learned it from a monastery holy man or from fighting tooth & nail on the nasty streets of the puddles in Absalom.
I didn't say to drop hp just skill points. As for the focus on history it feels off considering that the brawler seems to very much be modelling that classic archetype of the barroom brawler who beats the living crap out of you with his bare hands, the tools of his trade, or whatever is available. The brawler is like the rock in stand tall, wolverine (mostly) in X-men, leg breaker thugs, or maybe even Riddick; they don't think of going to school to understand the history of combat or the academia of it all, they are guys who have learned to fight with their bare hands or the tools of their job and realized they were really good at it.
Another thing I would love to see is that change to the weapons list to give us more proficiencies like that with brawlers getting brass knuckles, greatclubs (can anyone say baseballbat?), hatchets and handaxes, icepicks, and some carpentry hammers. Like the idea of playing a baseball bat wielding brawler who can also slap on some brass knuckles or grab a guy and bash his enemy through a table and then kill his associate with his own carpentry hammer would just be so awesome.
Now the argument could be made that this is also the Luchador/professional wrestler/Sumo type who has learned their skills through their training at a school for such skills but that knowledge could just as easily be represented by taking something like profession (wrestler) or knowledge local which has more of a focus on local customs what not which would be where knowledge of the local fighting styles would be most likely stored if not in something like the aforementioned Profession (wrestler).
Also, like knockout and awesome blow but they should show up much earlier. Would love to shariuken or knockout punch people around mid way through my brawlers progression rather then near the end. It also creates a really distinctive fighting style for them with that image of a brawler knockout punching people through walls and stuff something that would get players excited to level up into that nice mid range of powers and then follow it up with more insane options as well as helping separate them from their monk origins.
Also there needs to be more to separate it from the monk proper since as it stands now mechanically the whole "Monk without it's mysticism" thing basically means a monk with a lot of mechanics fixes and keeping its best abilities regardless of their association with ki powers (lookin at you flurry and brawlers strike).
I think the skill points should also be dropped to 2+Int and the knowledge history dropped or replaced with something like knowledge local. These guys are supposed to be the hitters and punchers of the martial world and less the learned and erudite characters that the monks are and would work fine with the lower point score. Also the knowledge history thing doesn't really make much sense considering what we have been told about the class that the learning and understanding or history or even dungeoneering would make much sense as cornerstones of the classes education. On that though I could totally see them having knowledge local which gives them info on humanoids and knowledge of local laws and customs, which a streetfighter/wrestler/back alley brawler would probably have more use for in this profession.
Using it as a tactic to defeat an enemy and disable their most powerful items and leave them less viable to harm you? Totally valid
Using it as a way to habitually torture your PC's and take away their loot, bad.
Basically just make sure that, like any creature, character, or build you have thought out the mentality of the characters using said techniques, their reasons for using it, and how they and/or the people they work with plan with it.
I mean I can easily see an Ogrekin fighter built to break all the things who is teamed up with a thief who just skirts around the field, granting flanking and stealing things off the target that he thinks are valuable while his big friend distracts them.