delvesdeep's page

Funk wrote:

Shackled City Resource:

www.therpgenius.com

Only one you'll need

Sorry my friend, but after searching through what is one of the slowest sites I've found, I got a big fat zip on EBERRON. The nearest I found was a conversion to FR, which doesn't help at all.

Anybody else got any good links to decent Eberron Conversions of SCAP? PLEASE? PRETTY PLEASE?

Gray, I understand your frustrations but please don't take them out on a site that many people here have used to help assist and shape their SCAP game. That site was put together by a fellow DM as a location for DMs, like yourself, to post up helpful information to help run the SCAP.

While I realize you were hoping for a quick fix for your conversion problem, while I'm sure it was not your intention, you come across as being flipant and condescending to therpgenius.com site.

No matter how slow it is, it is still a fantastic location to get thousands of useful maps, potraits, documents and most of all, ideas you can use in any world you choose to play SCAP in...

...yes, even in Eberron ;)

Delvesdeep

Dedekind wrote:

When the PCs defeat Vhalantru , they uncover his desk and all his research on the Cagewrights, giving them a +10 bonus on research related to the Cagewrights.

That's another good idea.

I'm leaning towards doing at least some of the replacements as Delvesdeep suggests, but one of my main concerns--apart from it being a lot of work ;)-is that knowing my group, the minute they get a name, they're going to be howling for blood. I foresee all the Cagewrights dead in their tracks long before the end of the AP if I make them too obvious.
I've played with these guys for the past seven years (though not as DM), and one of the group's major problems is that they don't back down. Ever. And I'd hate to have to kill them all off...

--Fang

Dedekind's idea definitely has merit, whether you use my structure or the original number of Cagewrights.

In terms of workload I plan on posting a document on everything written here on RPGenius once we have finished discussing all the intricaties.

At the moment though there is little changes you will have to make. I'll include a few Foreshadowing ideas below.

In regards to your over suspicious, eager and bloodthirty party. If a few Master Cagewrights get killed before they are 'supposed to' then I can't see any harm. If they are smart enough to see through lies and disguises then they should be rewarded with the evil villians death.

But if they bite off more than they can chew...then the same is try the other way. As Koramado stated, it would be a good lesson to not take on every NPC they disagree with or who upsets their sensabilities.

The death may cause an uproar initially and a lot of tantrum throwing, but it will give the message to them from that point on that you will not protect them and if they upset the wrong person then they will have to pay the consequences.

If you are really nice just have a true resurrection scroll in their possession at the time or make readily available. Either way the point will be made and they may be more agreeable to NPCs in the future ;).

Here are a few foreshadowing ideas you may choose to employ sooner rather than later whether you use the smaller cagewrights numbers I have wriiten up above or the original version.

Hope the ideas help.

Foreshadowing

The below Cagewrights are not foreshadowed in the SCAP at the moment so hear are a few ideas to make the them more memorable to the party.

Khyron Bonesworn (Apprentice) & Alurad Sorizan (Master)

Khyron is the clerical leader of the Necrocants and apprentice to Aluizid the Blackguard slayer of adventurers.

Possible Foreshadowing for these villains could involve –

Chapter 4 or earlier
The party here from a reliable source (possibly Meerthan) that a group of adventurers known as the Red Riders were ambushed on the road to Cauldron by a group known as the Necrocants. The Necrocants were lead by a handsome man with yellow eyes who wielded a skull caped mace and a shield adorned with a white skull. Only one member of the Red Riders survived the attack.

Chapter 5
At the beginning of Chapter 5 the ‘Strider’ of the party is contacted by Meerthan, urgently summoning them to the Drowning Morkoth. When they arrive Meerthan is prepared and quickly tells them that Fario, Fallian and Shensen were ambushed by the Necrotaunts are hiding in the jungles a few miles from the Lucky Monkey.

Meerthan teleports them to the Striders and find Fallian unconscious and the other two badly injured and out of spells. Within a few rounds the Necrotaunts find the party and Striders and attack.

The Necrocants are Khyron (see HC write up), Ranita (8th level Wizard/Necromancer), Malruin (6th level human ghost rogue), Sir Hellin (Swordwraith) & Dralan (Frost Giant Mummy).

Khyron retreats after things start to turn against his group and Meerthan commands the party and Striders to let him go hoping to magically trail him back to his Cagewright Master.

Later the same day Meerthan asks the party to come to the Drowning Morkoth to help him scry for Khyron and to try and remember everything they see in case his scrying is discovered and what they see is the only clues they have to locating the Master Cagewright and the other Masters.

Meerthan produces a large ornate silver mirror and begins to chant. The reflection begins to waver like a pond disturbed by a stone before the image becomes clearer and the party find themselves looking at a the ruins of a dark temple.

A figure clad in spiked armour climbs the stair of the temple which is easily recognizable as Khyron. The dark cleric walks through the shadow filled hallway, his footsteps echoing off the ancient walls before approaching the dimly lit altar.

Stooped over the altar with his back to Khyron, is a man wearing a cloak made of human skin covering his shadowy full plate armour. Shaggy black hair protrudes from his scalp and a great bloodied sword sits at his side. A huge red badger sits atop the altar snarling at the clerics approach.

‘I have failed Master’ you hear Khyron say breaking the silence, ‘the Striders still live….’

The man spins around, anger blazing in his bloodshot eyes. In his blood covered hands he holds the torso of a man who he has carefully begin to tear the skin from. His face is covered in a pattern of blood-red tattoos and hanging around his neck is a necklace of fresh hearts.

Khyron quickly continues -‘They called for help and we..’

‘Silence!’ the dark man raises his hand in fury, ‘and you came straight back here?! I said never to seek me out unless I summon you!’ he screams in anger at his cowering apprentice.

The crazed looking Cagewrights looks about the room until his eyes stare directly at the party. ‘And now you have brought them to me!’

‘Meerthan. I know where you are now. I will come to take your heart soon!’ he cackles before casting non-detection and ending the scry.

After the scry Meerthan sits stunned for a moment.

In a trance in whispers to himself - ‘He was meant to be dead, my leader died killing him’

Pulling himself out of the introspection Meerthan tells them the man is Alurad Sorizon, crazed adventurer slayer and sadistic blackguard slaughter of the Cagewrights. When the Striders attacked the Cagewrights Alurad had cut sway through many of their strongest members before Meerthan’s leader finally slew the man with his final breath.

Meerthan devotes his attention over the next chapter in finding Alurad.

Chapter 7
Khyron has been disfigured when they see him at the party. The skin of one half of his face has been torn off in payment for his mistake. The party will combat Khyron once again at House Rhalandi and likely kill him.

Shebeleth Regidin (Master Cagewright – Spiritual Leader)

Shebeleth, Spiritual Leader of the Cagewrights and High Priest of Adimarchus, abhors other faiths and the hope they provide to the future agonized slaves of Canceri and his master – Adimarchus. He is determined to wipe all potential spiritual resistance from Cauldron before he initiates the evil ritual that will turn it into a permant planar gate to the Prison Plane.

Chapter 3 or 4

The High Inquisitor and Arch Bishop of the church (either St Cuthbert or the party clerics church), His Divine Holiness, Shebeleth Regidin arrives in a white and gold carriage to help the faith in its dire of hour. Shebeleth is adorned with a high peaked cap and long white and gold robes. He walks with a golden staff.

The party may see the coach or just meet with the High Bishop at his request. Jenya, Asfelkir, Kristof or the leader of the party clerics church should be respectfully thrilled by the arrival of Shebeleth and be very keen to introduce the party to him. Shebeleth tells them he was wriiten to by Jenya/Askelkir/Kristof about the troubles in Cauldron and has come to help. He asks the party about their adventures and listen to their thoughts, worries and suspicions. Shebeleth gives the party each of minor magical item to help protect the church and defeat the evil that seems to be washing into Cauldron.

Items: Necklace of Fireballs (Type 1), Hand of the Mage, Phylactery of Faithfulness* and Eyes of the Eagle.

* The Phylactery dictum is a little different – far more militant and tolerant of other faiths including other ‘good’ faiths.

Shebeleth encourages the party to work to help the Cauldron community in any way and return with any information about the evil that Jenya/Asfelkir/Kristof had written to him about and he will personally reward them.

If they seems suspicious about Shebeleth he questions them directly about their concerns and even asks them to detect his alignment, read his thoughts etc and uses his remarkable trickery spells and abilities to twist them.

Chapter 5
Shebeleth begins to make some changes to the church, ‘encouraging’ more acolytes to be trained (hand picked and loyal to him), more funds to be used to train more holy soldiers/guards to protect the faith and go out and bring the faith into the homes of the needy and frightened. He uses a great deal of his personal treasury to help fund the improvements and uses some of his wealth to help repair the church petitioner’s homes which were damaged from the floods and riot/s. Shebeleth says he is becoming concerned with the other churches connections with the corrupt government and nobles

In reality these improvement are being used to buy loyalty, eat up the churches funds and prepare for an attack on the other good churches.

Chapter 7
Shebeleth has asked the church leader (Jenya etc) to step down because of past incompetence’s and the new direction of the faith at the start of the Chapter.

If the party resist this Shebeleth says he will give the leader one more chance but only if they openly take actions against the evil that is building in the city hidden in the churches themselves. Holy defence and strong resolve is required immediately.

If the party tell Shebeleth where they are going he makes sure he warns Fetor of their potential arrival before beginning to gather his flock and manipulate, mass charm etc them into a religious fever.

When the party travel to the Demonskar, Shebeleth gathers the church faithful and new holy defenders to attack the evil hidden in the Church of ….(Pelor, Kord or other). The ensuing conflict kills many needlessly and damages both churches.

When the party kill Fetor and discover that Shebeleth is his Cagewright Master that will return to the city to confront the evil cleric.

Shebeleth greets them with his headgears off revealing the ruby eye embedded into his forehead. He cackles insanely as they approach saying – ‘The damage is already done my pitiful servants. The churches will never recover in time before the Cagewrights terror is unleashed upon Cauldron. You have been little more than gullible pawn I’m afraid…’

He then uses time stop to summon 2 Fasastu and 1 Kelubar Demodands to finish off the party and then Word of Recall to return to the Fiery Sanctum.

Delvesdeep

I've been reading all of the posts above with a lot of interest. Our group is only about a third of the way through Flood Season, so I have time to make changes if I want to.

But here's a thought--if a shady organization (the Cagewrights) is operating in the area, and has recently come to the area because it happens to be one of the few places where they can perform their ritual...doesn't it stand to reason that the PCs aren't necessarily going to have had contact with many of the bad guys before the finale? I mean, realistically, the Cagewright masters are busy prepping their ritual for most of the campaign anyway, so they aren't going to be that visible. I'm not sure that the PCs killing a bunch of bad guys that they haven't personally had contact with is all that anticlimactic. And if the Cagewrights are only in the area for this ritual, I can't see them being that bothered (or having time) to get that involved in the local scene.

Just my thoughts.

--Fang

The Cagewrights are meant to be the ultimate manipulative masterminds behind all the evil that befalls Cauldron and the party throughout the Path.

Vhalntru is a mere ally of this organisation (according to the offical HC).

Which confrontation do you think your party will
(1) eagerly anticipate more?
(2) remember afterwards?
(3) be most motivated to seek?

My strong guess in the final battle with Vhalantru and the reasons are simple - because they know him, his evil work and how he has personally manipulated and wronged them.

Conversely the party know there is an evil organisation who is determined to turn Cauldron into a gate town to Canceri. They march off to face the terrible bad guys and come across the first of them and ask - 'Are you a cagewright?'

A bit of a let down don't you think? You could throw anyone in that dungeon and say they were Cagewrights. In face throw in a few townspeople and the party would probably murder all of them assuming they were the terrible Cagewrights. In fact the Cagewrights may have further manipulated the party by sending them to a dungeon full of a rival group and the party would never know.

In my opinion evil needs a face or the party loses motivation and focus. When they face whats meant to be the ultimate evil orgaisation of the game they need more of a reason than - "Go kill them they are the bad guys'.

They need to feel personally affronted -

Vhalantru has manipulated you and the city from the start using you as a puppet all while pretending to be you ally

Shebeth is not the Arch bishop of your faith... he is a Cagewright who has driven your church and the city to the brink of insanity

Embril has been a Cagewright from the start and has used her church to destroy the rest of the faiths in Cauldron and sent assassins to kill you

The Fish is the Jester of the Last Laugh and killed (Skylar, Jenya etc)

Alurid has systematical killed every adventuring party that has tryed to help Cauldron including the Stormblades..

Gau is the general of the Cagewright army and commander of the Blue Duke.

You probably won't have to remind the players of any of this because they will remember and would be determined and motivated to kill most of this group anyway even if they weren't the Cagewrights.

Much better motivation than -they are the Cagewrights go kill them...

Just my opinion of course as always

I onlt just got Dungeon Magazine Issue #139 yesterday! :) So I'm guessing my group will be playing STAP going on their current pace in 2010.

And that is if we don't play AOWAP first!

Thanks for the compliment but you seem to have plenty of good ideas yourself.

I take your point with your campaign and the Cagewrights. Too may villians is too hard for any group to follow especially if you are attempting to foreshadow them this late into the SCAP.

I am very hopeful though that my structure above has reduced the villian focus suitably. Onlt time will tell though.

Delvesdeep

Last Laugh/ The 'Fish'
DMTodd I can appreciate you situation. It sounds like you are fairly advanced in the Path so foreshadowing another LL Leader might be difficult. If you are vaguely interested you may wish to have things work a round the opposite way to most of the assults (ie House Rhalandi, Oblivion, Wee Yas) and have the Last Laugh assult the party.

The players could recieve a urgent sending from Jenya saying the church is under attack. The players may gather forces etc and rush to her aid. When they arrive she is bewildered to the message she never sent it.

'Rufus' is in attendence and say coldly - 'No I did!' and promptly attempts to assassinate Jenya or a party member as the Last Laugh flock in(size/strength depends on party level). The Fish may fight to the death or if the parties allies arrive or he is getting beaten, he flees with what's left of his forces.

The party will probably kill him right there but if he does manage to escape they may assult the Last laugh Headquarters directly and finish the organisation off for good.

If they do nothing the Fish will turn up disguised as another of their allies and attempt a direct assissation attempt on them.

Alternatively the Fish could start to turn up as any number of disguised allies before making attempts on the parties life and just fleeing and/or the LL could pick up their efforts and begin to directly assult the players holdings/friends.

This would be enough to motivate and foreshadow this Cagewright for your party. In the end though you know what you want and what works best for your party and your game.

Number of Cagewrights

With the structure above I've reduced the number of Cagewrights from (potenially) 27- 13 Apprentices, 13 Masters and 1 leader to 13 all together.

On top of this many of the apprentices and masters are prominant figures in the Path and written adventures already so foreshadowing is less of an issue.

For example -
Apprentice Appearances/Encounters

Fetor (appears in Secrets of the Soul Pillars)
Ike (appears in Secret of the Soul Pillars)
Thifirane (appears in Party at House Rhiavadi)
Blue Duke (appears in Party at House Rhiavadi)
Jil or Velior appears in Brass Trumpet or House Rhiavadi)
Kyron appears at House Rhiavadi

So from these apprentices/villians 2 will be killed during Secrets of the Soul Pillars (already foreshadowed), 1 at the Brass Trumpet (already foreshadowed), Blue Duke during the tax riots and Invasion at Redgorge, Thifirane throughout the Path and Kyron at House Rhiavadi.

Kyron is probably the only one you would need to foreshadow and as I've written him up as Aluids apprentice he, as his party, the party would have heard that he had assulted parties and may have even seen him in action previous to this.

Cagewright Masters - require more foreshadowing

Vhalantru - Lords of Oblivion
Embril - 13 Cages or new adventure
Shebeleth - 13 cages
Nulin 'Fish' - Last Laugh Headquarters/13 Cages
Alurid - 13 Cages/new adventure
Gau - 13 Cages

So out of these 2 are already included adventures and foreshadowed throughout the path(Vhalantru & Embril) while the remaining 4 need some foreshadowing.

Overall though this is a huge reduction in numbers and work on the DM. Players will already know 5 of the Apprentices and 2 of the Master Cagewrights so this leaves only 5 villians to foreshadow instead of almost 26.

It will make the final encounters with the group much more memorable and satisfying for the party and DM a like.

I don't think there is now too many Cagewrights or bad guys....do you think they need to be reduced further?

Anyway thanks for your comments and good luck with your game.

Delvesdeep

Here are my justifications/motivations for choosing the following NPCs as Master Cagewrights -

Master Cagewrights

Vhalantru (Cauldron self appointed 'Mayor')

Is there a bigger, more memorable villian in the SCAP?! Tieing him in with the Cagewrights seems a no brainer for me.

My only reservation is that why he is extremely well known to DMs as the master manipulator behind most of the earlier adventures the party only have contact with him in either form(according to the HC)in Life's Bazaar, Zeniths Tajectory and finally in Lords of Oblivion.

Embril Aloustinai (High cleric of Wee Yas)

Embril is another villian who is very familiar to the party and is active from very early in the Path. Embril is already a Cagewright in the original write up so included her is not a difficult decision.

The party do not really meet Embril(again according to the HC) at any stage (unless you play the Demonskar Ball) but hear a great deal about her as they progress.

Shebeleth Regiden (Spiritual Leader of Addimarchus)

Shebeleth is the strongest link of the Cagewrights to the arch evil villian of the SCAP - Adimarchus. He is a sinister and manipulative figure who is responsible for the creation of the Tree of Shackled Souls and much of the ritual. As such he also links with the Loremaster Fetor who discovered the secrets of the ritual of planar junction initially.

IMHO he one of the most influential and memorable evil figures of the path.

Nulin 'Fish' Wiejeron (Assassin & Last Laugh Jester/Guildmaster)

As I've stated a few time now the Last Laugh is a very visable evil presence in Cauldron and secretly behind many of the evil missions that occur there. When Jil dies so it seems does the organisation which personally I always found a bit of an anti-climax.

I always felt that the guild should be attacked by the party and their headquarters breached.

The HC mentions that their is numerous guildmaster but they were never written up. As such I felt it would be an easy transition for the Cagewright Assassin 'Fish' to fill such a role.

If the party were to attack the Last Laugh Headquaters before they meet the 'Fish' during Thirteen Cages and kill the Jester it give the party tremendous satisfaction and sense of closure. It would also prove a significant blow to the Cagewrights in general.

Non-essential/easily trensferable choices

Alurad and Gau are probably (again in my opinion) the least notable and influential Cagewrights in terms of the plot so are therefore the easiest to swap with another of the Cagewrights.

Alurad Sozizan (Blackgaurd/cleric)

The sadistic slayer of adventurers who dare attempt to come to Cauldron rescue, Alurad is bound to come across the party at some stage. Ideally I would love to organise that Alurad attacks the party sometime after Vhalantru orders their demise and the Wee Yas Assassins fail. Perhaps instead of the Half dragon/half minotaur attack? Ideally he will escape the attempt but if he dies I may swap him in the 13 Cages adventure with one of the Wizard Cagewrights....???

Gau Kleeoch (Minotaur Fighter)

I have written Gau somewhat to be the General of the Cagewright forces and to be more tactically intelligent than written up as in the HC. I included Gau to be fill the brawn role of the organisation which is otherwise missing.

These are my justifications and added to the foreshadowing and reasons I mentions in my first post I hope, if you intend on using the structure, it helps you adapt it to your game.

Thanks for your interest

Delvesdeep

Sorry DMTodd my last post was a bit confused with a mixture of your last post and my written reply. I'll repost just my reply again to help unjumble my previous post and make it clearer for you to decifier.

You posted yout reply too quickly for me to go back and edit my original post after I realised my mistake!

Repost
I never picked Jil as the leader of the Last Laugh just more the 'face' of the organisation. I can't see any harm in swapping Velior for Jil as a Cagewright apprentice but I don't think the Last Laugh should die with Jil.

My initial thoughts on foreshadowing Velior was to have him directly refered to by Jil during the Brass Trumpet encounter. Thinking about it now though I think replacing Velior with Jil would be a better fit and require less changes and work in terms of foreshadowing.

As far as having Jil the ultimate leader...I find that a bit harder to imagine. I'll try and explain my reasons I used 'The Fish' as the Jester/Last Laugh Guildmaster in my next post but foreshadowing him should be relatively easy (I hope ;)).

The Blue Duke is a very notable and identifiable figure but as far as being influential, well, he doesn't really fit the bill. But saying this I still chose him to include as a Apprentice because of his role in the Path.

Anyway thanks for your support DMTodd

Delvesdeep

I'd would just say that for each of those guys, you have to find a way to foreshadow them. How do you foreshadow Bonesworn? He jsut appears out of nowhere.

>> Velior Thazo (2nd in charge of the Last Laugh

My players had a solid hatred for the Last Laugh and Jil. Her defeat was a highlight, in fact, they solidly persued her and I had to move the Brass Trumpet encounter up before the Demonskar.

I never picked Jil as the leader of the Last Laugh just more the 'face' of the organisation. I can't see any harm in swapping Velior for Jil as a Cagewright apprentice but I don't think the Last Laugh should die with Jil.

My initial thoughts on foreshadowing Velior was to have him directly refered to by Jil during the Brass Trumpet encounter. Thinking about it now though I think replacing Velior with Jil would be a better fit and require less changes and work in terms of foreshadowing.

As far as having Jil the ultimate leader...I find that a bit harder to imagine. I'll try and explain my reasons I used 'The Fish' as the Jester/Last Laugh Guildmaster in my next post but foreshadowing him should be relatively easy (I hope ;)).

The Blue Duke is a very notable and identifiable figure but as far as being influential, well, he doesn't really fit the bill. But saying this I still chose him to include as a Apprentice because of his role in the Path.

Anyway thanks for your support DMTodd

Delvesdeep

To defeat Jil and then say "oh, but she wasn't the leader, the leader is some random guy you haven't heard of" would be bad. Even foreshadowing a different leader would be bad in my mind. Let your players accomplish something by defeating Jil and have that be the end of the Last Laugh.

>> Blue Duke

That's an NPC the players know about and enoucnter frequently (or at least hear about). I don't know why you'd remove him.

Assuming that some people are thinking of using this structure and possibly changing some of the members I included (Zeal did a good job with his adaptation), I thought I would write down the Cagewrights I feel that are important to keep and those that could be easily substuited -

Apprentices
All thirteen of the original Cagewrights had the potential to have an apprentice and many of them did. The only one I can remember off hand is Thifirane and she still remains an apprentice in my version too.

Important/Essential Apprentices

Thifirane (Cauldron Noble -Apprentice to Vhalantru)

Thifirane is Vhalantru's right hand girl - she even ends up with one of his eyes!. She is a very visable figure in the Path and plays a crutial part in letting the players know the plans of the Cagewrights. Her link to the Cagewrights and the ultimate plot can not be under estimated. For these reason alone she seems to be the quintessential Cagewright Apprentice.

Fetor Abradius (Loremaster - Apprentice of Shebeleth)

Fetor is the reason that the Cagewrights learnt the Soulweavers secrets and ritual to help them realize their evil plans. He is also a corrupted follower of Adimarchus which ties him nicely to Shebeleth. Fetor is another impotant step towards the Cagewrights and was (and perhaps still is) paramount to their plans.

Ike Iverson (Wee Yas 2nd in command - apprentice of Embril)

The Church of Wee Jas has a very visable sinister presence in the Path for almost the entire scope of the adventure series. Being second in command, the man behind the assassination attempt and, most importantly, the 'protector' of the 14th cage Ike deserves his place. His obvious ties to Embril also doesn't harm either.

Velior Thazo (2nd in charge of the Last Laugh - apprentice of Nulin 'Fish' Wiejeron)

Another very visable sinister force in the city for the entire Path is the Last Laugh. Unfortunately after a big built up and a great deal of behind the scenes work, the Last Laugh fades into oblivion with not even a whimper. In fact after Velior makes a presence during the Party at House Rhalandi the organisation is never seen again...

I think this is a waste so this is why not only Velior becomes directly involved in the Cagewrights but why also his new master gets a place also.

Non essential/replacable apprentices

Zarn Kyass (Blue Duke - apprentice of Gau Kleeoch)

Zarn could easily be replaced, exchanged or used as written. The reason I included him is because he plays an important role as second in command of the gaurd (before assuming Teresongs position after desposing of him during the Invasion at Redgorge). He is another visable sign of evil change in Cauldron and leads the half-orcs that filter ino the gaurd to signal that things are changing for the worse in Cauldron.

The Blue Duke also links beautifully with Gau and monsterous fighter types, a rarity in the campaign.

Khyron Bonesworn (Leader of evil Adventurers - apprentice of Alurad Sozizan

Khyron is included because IMHO he is an extremely interested NPC. The fact he wield a skull mace, wears his dark armour and is the leader of the Necroaunts is enough to make him stand out and be remembered by any party.

I like the idea of him linked with the Blackgaurd Cagewright -Alurad and will use them to despose of adventures in and around Cauldron until they meet the party before or during the Party. Zeals idea of allowing the party to see them attack a group of adventurers (perhaps a band thye had only recently met and befriended) would be a great foreshadowing tool.

I'm sorry I was going to do the Master/Full Members now but home calls.

For those interested I'll post the rest up later.

Does anyone have any arguments why any of the apprentices should be swaped and alternatives that they could be swaped with?

Thanks for your interest

Delvesdeep

Assuming that some people are thinking of using this structure and possibly changing some of the members I included (Zeal did a good job with his adaptation), I thought I would write down the Cagewrights I feel that are important to keep and those that could be easily substuited -

Apprentices
All thirteen of the original Cagewrights had the potential to have an apprentice and many of them did. The only one I can remember off hand is Thifirane and she still remains an apprentice in my version too.

Important/Essential Apprentices

Thifirane (Cauldron Noble -Apprentice to Vhalantru)

Thifirane is Vhalantru's right hand girl - she even ends up with one of his eyes!. She is a very visable figure in the Path and plays a crutial part in letting the players know the plans of the Cagewrights. Her link to the Cagewrights and the ultimate plot can not be under estimated. For these reason alone she seems to be the quintessential Cagewright Apprentice.

Fetor Abradius (Loremaster - Apprentice of Shebeleth)

Fetor is the reason that the Cagewrights learnt the Soulweavers secrets and ritual to help them realize their evil plans. He is also a corrupted follower of Adimarchus which ties him nicely to Shebeleth. Fetor is another impotant step towards the Cagewrights and was (and perhaps still is) paramount to their plans.

Ike Iverson (Wee Yas 2nd in command - apprentice of Embril)

The Church of Wee Jas has a very visable sinister presence in the Path for almost the entire scope of the adventure series. Being second in command, the man behind the assassination attempt and, most importantly, the 'protector' of the 14th cage Ike deserves his place. His obvious ties to Embril also doesn't harm either.

Velior Thazo (2nd in charge of the Last Laugh - apprentice of Nulin 'Fish' Wiejeron)

Another very visable sinister force in the city for the entire Path is the Last Laugh. Unfortunately after a big built up and a great deal of behind the scenes work, the Last Laugh fades into oblivion with not even a whimper. In fact after Velior makes a presence during the Party at House Rhalandi the organisation is never seen again...

I think this is a waste so this is why not only Velior becomes directly involved in the Cagewrights but why also his new master gets a place also.

Non essential/replacable apprentices

Zarn Kyass (Blue Duke - apprentice of Gau Kleeoch)

Zarn could easily be replaced, exchanged or used as written. The reason I included him is because he plays an important role as second in command of the gaurd (before assuming Teresongs position after desposing of him during the Invasion at Redgorge). He is another visable sign of evil change in Cauldron and leads the half-orcs that filter ino the gaurd to signal that things are changing for the worse in Cauldron.

The Blue Duke also links beautifully with Gau and monsterous fighter types, a rarity in the campaign.

Khyron Bonesworn (Leader of evil Adventurers - apprentice of Alurad Sozizan

Khyron is included because IMHO he is an extremely interested NPC. The fact he wield a skull mace, wears his dark armour and is the leader of the Necroaunts is enough to make him stand out and be remembered by any party.

I like the idea of him linked with the Blackgaurd Cagewright -Alurad and will use them to despose of adventures in and around Cauldron until they meet the party before or during the Party. Zeals idea of allowing the party to see them attack a group of adventurers (perhaps a band thye had only recently met and befriended) would be a great foreshadowing tool.

I'm sorry I was going to do the Master/Full Members now but home calls.

For those interested I'll post the rest up later.

Does anyone have any arguments why any of the apprentices should be swaped and alternatives that they could be swaped with?

Thanks for your interest

Delvesdeep

I agree with Sean....and DMTodd & Ogre_Bane. :)

The Cagewrights I have chosen were done so because I believed they were the most important and interesting villians in the Path. They also linked well and were easy to foreshadow making the final encounter with each of them memorable and emotive.

But I can't see a problem with changing one or two of them to better fit your game, interests, style and players. As both DMTodd and Ogre_Bane eluded to - too much of a good thing feels contrived. One villian with connections to the party or who is a characters 'opposite' is probably more than enough.

If I was going to change one of the six 'masters' it would be either Gau (female minotaur fighter/general) or Aluzid (blackgaurd) and perhaps change either one with one of the Cagewright wizards. But in saying that I think I'll still include the wizards but they may take on Demodand or (as DMTodd suggested earlier) Salamader form :)

Anyway this thread is just my possible solution to a flaw I felt that could corrected.

Just ideas

Delvesdeep

The keyboards a smoking with this topic. :)

I wouldn't mind things going the opposite way in which the PCs start on the outer plans and the events there are going to revolve around the happenings on several Prime Material planes. The PCs then travel to several different worlds... could be tie ins to Greyhawk, FR, DarkSun, etc., etc.

Sean Mahoney

I was thinking exactly the same way before I read your post. I would enjoy a more otherworldly campaign where the party treks through the planes on a mission of some sorts.

While there has been plenty of evil outsiders in the other adventures a campaign based around a Formian Invasion would contain the WAR-theme people seem to be interested in and also build a huge array of planar based adventure locations.

Alternatively I like the idea of a war-based Adventure Path using the more traditional races. You would have to add some variations to the races to make the game interesting but I would enjoy the more mundane feel of the campaign.

Just my preferences though

Delvesdeep

Delvesdeep,

One way that i have planned to foreshadow Alurad Sozizan is that at one point the players hear a rumour that a crazy looking, tatooed warrior and a fiendish dire badger (I think thats the correct description - dont have the magazine with me right now) had ambushed a part of adventurers travelling between Sasserine and Cauldron, leaving only one survivor to make it to town (and generate the rumour).

Later in the campaign, the Striders will call back to Sasserine for re-inforcements (sseing that events in Cauldron are getting worse, or thinking that they may be closing in on the Cagewrights), and once again this group will be attacked by Alurad, leaving only one survivor to straggle into Cauldron and tell the Striders (and the PCs) about it.

I like your idea. I may use that myself. Though I will throw in that it was Alurad who killed Todd and the party can find this out by talking to the remaining members of the Stormblades (assuming they are on civil terms by that stage;)).

Delvesdeep

This is good stuff (as always)! I guess I would make a few comments...

First, you are cutting out 1 1/2 adventures, I am very curious to see what your plan is for replacing these (though I think it is a good idea, since those specific parts bog down in just a repetitive mash of combat). If you don't have a good alternative (and I think there will be one) then there really isn't a reason to drop 1/2 the thirteen.

Second, foreshadowing Dyr'ryd can be done as other leaders are taken out. Most of this would take place during the adventure he appears in, so it wouldn't foreshadowed too much, but things like dying curses and such could be used for him. Additionally he really could drive home the themes of madness and carceri.

Sean Mahoney

I plan on replacing the Cagewrights that I have excluded in Thirteen Cages with powerful followers - perhaps more Demodands or other villians the party have faced and perhaps not conquered yet.

I may use the other members that I have written out from the Strike on Shatterhorn adventure still but just not as Cagewrights. Perhaps they are allies of the cause or powerful followers of the Smoking eye cult that is beginning to spread throughout Cauldron and perhaps as far as Sasserine.

Perhaps in place of the Shatterhorn adventure the party can hunt down Embril who has risen the undead Kopru army from the lake necropolis in the Haunted Village or assembled the Forst Giants of Jarls Hold to destroy Cauldron once and for all.

The mass sacrafice of lives is the price she has bargained with Adimarchus captors to release him and their spirits will forever be trapped in the torturous walls of Skullrot. Whether the bargain is kept is irrelevant.

The party would have to stop Embril and her cult members (read unused Cagewrights) to stop the impending invasion. Perhaps a vision of Adimarchus will be seen by the adventures which threaten to sends them insane beckoning them to release him and revealing to them the spread of his influence, madness and power around Cauldron unless they stop him. It may prove a better catayst ofr their final trek than what is currently provided.

Anyway this is all just off the top of my head and I haven't thought through the ramafications of the adventure or whether to use the missing cagewrights in it at all.

Overall though I still believe reducing the number of ultimate villians and the players focus to just a few powerful figures is more meaningful to the party and overall plot of the Path.

Delvesdeep

I would use Seans theory also. The Darkstalker can be found in a room full of broken jars, ceramics, bottles etc which I believe was once a lab of some sorts. The Darkstalker most likely would have attempted some of the potions he found here or potions that his minions brought to him from alternative locations in the dungeon.

If your party need an answer to the Darkstalkers contagion I would go with that one.

You are right though, there is no explaination given in the adventure but I guess they felt that a party would be unlikely to care or discover the answers to such a question.

Have fun

Delvesdeep

The Striders of Fharlanghn are a great way to foreshadow the members of the Cagewrights and their motivation... you can also give them some information about the power level of the group... Meerthan can tell them that his superiors have all been killed during the last time they foiled the plans of the Cagewrights. They were mowed down by Dyr'Ryd and his other cronies... this should discourage them to take direct actions against them, until it is already nearly too late after "Foundation of Flames".

Perhaps Meerthan dies during the fiery cataclysm and the PC's find his notes and conclusions about the organization he has followed for nearly all his life.

I've already started to use the Striders for this exact purpose though I have limited the information flow until the Path progresses further for my party.

So far Meerthan has only revealed to the 'Strider' of my group that the organisation followed a powerful evil organisation to Cauldron in an attempt to learn as much as they can about their motivations and attempt to fraught them. An all out assult would be disasterous due to their small numbers.

I also told the member (& therefore party) about the last assult the Striders made upon the organisation and the disaster that ensured after their attack turned into an ambush which almost wiped out the Striders altogether.

As far an the evil organisations name, motivations, members etc I would prefer the party learned these from the half fiend in Test of the Smoking Eye before Meerthan begins to reveal more of his secrets.

But in saying that I think you are right Oliver in that Meerthan and the Striders in general would provide an excellent method of foreshadowing Sha'ator (sp?) and other cagewrights.

Delvesdeep

I'm a Melbournian. From the northeast suburbs - think Doncaster, Eltham, Greenborough and you are getting close.

I had the same group for 20 years or so but would like to invite another one or two into the mix if anyone is vaguely interested and willing to travel to my parts.

Delvesdeep

P.S. We're currently playing SCAP.

I never thought I would find another DM from Melbourne on these boards.

I'm running the Shackled City AP with a group in the Northern Suburbs. Where are you playing?

Delvesdeep

I was intending to post this up on Riptide777's thread about Cagewrights but I was concerned about ambushing his thread so...

As others have mentioned many times over one of Shackled Cities greatest weaknesses is the main villians - the Cagewrights.There are 13 of them! Most of theses villians are never seen until the final few adventures just before the party desposes of them. They may as well be random monsters for all the feeling, anticipation and closure the encounter gives to the party.

SO...

I'm changing the whole make up of the Thirteen to 6 members, 6 apprentices and 1 leader.

Here are my 'Thirteen' and when they are encounter by the party -

The Apprentices-Most are present during the 'Party at House Rhiavadi' plus a few other guests

1. Zarn Kyass (Blue Duke - apprentice of Gau Kleeoch)

2. Fetor Abradius (Loremaster - Apprentice of Shebeleth)

3. Khyron Bonesworn (Leader of evil Adventurers - apprentice of Alurad Sozizan

4. Ike Iverson (Wee Yas 2nd in command - apprentice of Embril)

5. Velior Thazo (2nd in charge of the Last Laugh - apprentice of Nulin 'Fish' Wiejeron)

6. Thifirane (Cauldron Noble -Apprentice to Vhalantru)

Full Members/The Masters

1. Vhalantru (Cauldron self appointed 'Mayor')

2. Nulin 'Fish' Wiejeron (Assassin & Last Laugh Jester/Guildmaster)

3. Shebeleth Regiden (Spiritual Leader of Addimarchus)

4. Embril Aloustinai (High cleric of Wee Yas)

5. Gau Kleeoch (Minotaur Fighter)

6. Alurad Sozizan (Blackgaurd/cleric)

Leader

Dyr'ryd

Clarifications

1Fetor will most likely be killed during the Secrets of the Soul Pillars chapter but the party will find correspondance to and from Shebeleth to let them know of their connection.

Similiarly Ike will probably be cleaned up during Secrets of the Soul Pillars. If both these events occur then by the Party at Rhiavadi there will be only 4 cagewright apprentices left plus other potential evil allies.

2During the Party at House Rhiavadi the party will have an excellent opportunity to despose of almost all the Cagewright apprentices. Other powerful evil allies have also been invited to the party (Mhad, Vervil Ashmantle, Adrick Garthun etc. Thifirane is the longest serving apprentice and closest to full membership and therefore spokesperson of the leaders.

I will have to change Thifiranes speech a small amount and foreshadow the meeting as a collection of apprentices and allies but other thean that little will have to change I hope.

3I will need to come up with another adventure/side trek after Thirteen Cages to make up the players XP they will need to face Adimarchus but this should not be difficult.

4 I am changing Nulin 'Fish' Wiejeron into the Guildmaster of the Last Laugh and only Jester. I realize the HC states that there is more than one leader but they are never written up anywhere so, as mush to tie up loose ends as anything else, I will make 'Fish' the Cagewright assassin the ultimate leader and have Velior Thazo (the Jester mentioned in the Party at House Rhiavadi) his second in command.

The party may attack the Last laugh headquarter before the latter chapters so 'Fish',and therefore one of the Thirteen, may be killed early. Otherwise they will face him during 'Thirteen Cages'. The party will hear of Fish and may even see him earlier in the path to help foreshadow this villian.

5I will (DMTodd has inspied me here) drop the Strike at Shatterhorn adventure altogether and move Embril elsewhere - either to Thirteen Cages or back into the Cauldron (Church of Wee Yas?)

Shatterhorn to me is a huge waste of time and the Embril encounter seems like the only memorable and important portion of the whole adventure.

Cagewright Foreshadowing

Shebeleth High Bishop of my clerics order but he can be a visiting High Bishop/Church Leader of St Cuthbert or any other church. At first if he appears generous and kind, even offering gifts to to the party and community this will help alevate suspicions. Later he may return demanding changes to the church etc. When the party uncover his true identity and motivations it will be a shock.

Nulin 'Fish' Wiejeron Guildmaster/Jester of the Last Laugh. The party may meet the dangerous villian when they interupt a meeting he is having with Vhalantru, when they attempt to hunt down Jil and/or when they attack the Last Laughs headquaters.

Gau Kleeoch Gau is the General of a great army who waits to invade the frontiers lands after the Canceri gate is opened. The Blue Duke commands a division of this army who she sent to Cauldron as the strike team of her forces. When the Blue Duke dies she seek to meet with his killers (disguised) and attack them before she looses her temper, changes form and attacks before fleeing when Vhalantru appears to rescue them (part of his manipulations & efforts to keep the Cagewrights plans in place) or the Striders/Chisel.

Alternatively perhaps she is seen by the Chisel on the battlefield after the Invasion of Redgorge. She may even issue a threat to send out the Blue Dukes heros or destroy the town on her own before leaving in a rage.

Later research may reveal her identity...?

Alurad Sozizan Blackgaurd and sadistic killer of any adventurers attempting to aid Cauldron in the past perhaps Alurad was seen by the party murdering an adventuring party who enters the city. Perhaps he was the one who killed Todd before her came to be left in the Cathedral of Wee Yas?

Vhalantru - takes care of himself

Embril - takes care of herself

Dyr'ryd – does he need foreshadowing???

Questions
Can anyone see any problems with these changes?

Should I swap any of the apprentices or masters with other NPCs?

Anyway just the way I'm leaning at the moment.

Delvesdeep

I'm running the SCAP in slow motion. Basically I am halving all the XP awarded in the adventures to double the encounters required to advance a level. The reason for this has to do with previous campaigns where I felt my party never had the time to become accustomed to their new abilities/powers etc before they were getting new ones.

Also I found that they had far fewer opportunities to develop allies and roleplay relationships out before they were already powerful. It was a bit like the 6 foot 10 year old who doesn't understand his own strength.

This has also allowed me to insert a lot more side treks relating to the characters backgrounds, interests and whims inbetween each adventure. This has proved a great success to date.

Another major change I have made is to insert the Smoking Eye into many of the adventures and villians of the SCAP. I also have another plot running alone side the main path to do with a planar exploration, retrieval of spheres of power and overall to do with a 'wizards' goal to draw the extraordinary power from the flickering spark of a dead gods soul which is drifting in the Astral Plane. So overall I think thats a fairly divergent theme to insert into the SCAP. :)

Delvesdeep

Great ideas rokeca! That would have set up the Stormblade rivalry beautifully. My party would have bee fuming :)

You could say that the while he Malchite Hold would be on alert they would not all spend their entire time just sitting around waiting for the party to appear.

-Guards would be set and possibly doubled.
-Traps may be erected to both harm and alarm
-The polymorphed 'ogre' would be more prepared and probably
join the gaurds at the base of the elevator.

but..

- Kozy (the half troll) would be determined to sell the slaves quickly after organising the slaver to meet with him for that time. He and Prickles woulf therefore be still in the sale yard. He would demand more gaurds to protect him though.

- The gaurds have a great series of traps set up perhaps they would just barracade the other alternative routes to ensure any trespasser would have to travel through that area.

-The Stone Spike is not controlled by anyone (as far as I know) so it would stay where it is)

If you are really worried send the Striders in as soon as things look grim (thats what their written in for).

Other than that you will be surprized by what happens. I'm guessing the next time you write the party has waded through the Hold with barely a scratch :)

Delvesdeep

I agree with you all. The Cagewrights are just a mysterious group of no named villians who the paper eventually kill like common dungeon monsters during the final few chapters. There must be a better way to foreshadow the (suposedly) No 1 villians (if you don't count Adimarchus) of the whole AP!

Now I don't have my book infront of me yet but as far as I can remember there are some of the Cagewrights that are visable but the majority of them are not.

I think the best way to foreshadow the group is a similiar way as the AP handled Vhalantru - having the party meet the members without realising there true motivations.

While I'm sure you can't do this with every one of the 13 I think we should put our creative heads together and come up with potential ways we can foreshadow as many of the members before the party finally face them in Chapter 10 & 11.

Any takers?

Embril is a visable member of the Cagewrights and the players will/may mmet her on a number of occasions during the path (possible during the Demonskar Ball, Flood Festival, any investigation into earlier adventures etc)

I've got the religious head of the Cagewrights covered (sorry can't remember his name off hand). I've played him as the Arch-Bishop and spiritual leader of a knights order in which one of my characters is a member of. He is corrupting the organisation and when he is revealed later in the Path the knight will be both shocked and determined to find him and despose of him.

As to the others....well any ideas I'm sure would help everyone.

Delvesdeep

Its often the way though - the big villian goes down like he was a over ambitious kobold and then a regular mook comes in and, a few good rolls later, cleans up half the party. Damn dice!

Delvesdeep

Fangs idea about Todd is a good one. Todd would be an arrogant, inexperienced and ineffiectual leader who Vhalantru may be more than happy to have lead the troops. The whole Stormblades may be deputised for the invasion. Vhalantru would reason that if they succeed - he wins if they get themselves killed - he wins. If the party has made enemies of the group it would not take much for the Stormblades to join up if they knew the party were on the other side.

Another idea is to have the advanced doppleganger from Zeniths Tajectory make another appearance this time as a 'reborn' Blue Duke. Many of the half-orc will have already fled after the real Dukes death but the remainder are reunited when the Blue Duke meraculously reappears.

The reborn Duke has no idea about tactic or warfare for that matter and again proves a ineffectual leader. After a time the half-orcs grow increasingly suspicious as the new Duke is nothing like the old Duke. When the party kill or reveal the doppleganger for what it is the rest of the half-orcs would flee altogether.

As I have mentioned earlier, I would have the city forces divided into the half-orcs and the city gaurd who is lead by Skylar. If the party can convince Skylar of the truth of the invasion he will lead this contingent back to the city.

Is the demon General dead and the rest of his troops disbanded?

Did you get a chance to run any of the invasion like you hoped ie battle plans, demon raid, seige engines, battle at the gatehouse etc

Delvesdeep

A good balance of classes is always important IMHO but I know that some groups have gone through the entire AP without a thief but with plenty of trap finding devices/potions.

You need a two or three fighter types and definately a wizard to thrown in those vital big damaging spells particularly later in the Path.

A ranger whose enemy is either goblins and evil outsiders would be a great character to have around.

A big thing would be to ask your DM to ensure that while making your characters that he/she ties their background into the city of Cauldron itself. The Dm would also be wise to use the Character Trait section at the back of the hardcover to assist linking your characters to the Path also.

Any more advice than this I fear I will reveal too much.

Probably the biggest advice I can give you is to ask the Dm to tell you a bit about the SCAP background, Cauldron and the general feel of the campaign so you can use this basic information to not only choose your classes but, more importantly, develop your characters personalities and backgrounds to fit with the over game.

Good Luck, it a sensational series of adventures and now do yourself a favour a stop reading the other threads on this boards lest you ruin all the big surprizes of the AP.

Have fun

Delvesdeep

I just thought I'd pipe up and say that I have pretty much thought in terms of adventure paths for as long as I have been DMing, which has been a long time. I have always run the long epic story arch with the big bad at the end. Just now, Dungeon has given it a name. I guess that's why i like them so much.

Also,I have used most of the suggestions in this thread in one way or another to create my campaigns. In the end it seems to work best to use a combo of whatever gets the job done, but they are all good ways to get going.

I'm the same as you robert in this regard. I've been writing up my own campaigns/adventure paths for decades now. The difference is though is that in the past, simply because of the length of time to reach the ultimate conclusion of these paths, my previous adventure paths have changed to suit the players and/or my own interests & whims.

The highests level I have ever taken a group is 16th and this was while playing 2nd Edition after 12 years with the same characters. So while I've never completed a Adventure Path I've always played my game using the same basic premise of one.

I think having a path or direction for a group to follow is essential to a long term campaign. Otherwise players quickly grow bored of meaningless adventures that have no relation to each other or them in general.

I'm currently using the Shackled City AP and have been doing so for a few years now. I'm hoping that for the first time I can actually play the campaign all the way through!

Delvesdeep

Are you a player or a DM or both?

The answer will determine how the rest of us advise you. I wouldn't want to give away the plot if you were a player.

Delvesdeep

I haven't planned this section yet either so my advice is untested :).

As long as you have a clear idea what is occuring and how it plays out the event should run smoothly.

Break the events down even further onto a small running sheet so, during the excitment of the event, you don't forget any part or NPCs role.

Use a lot of description rather than rules/checks. Figure out how things will most likely evolve and the way your players will most likely react.

If you know what will happen if the party was not even there during the riot it makes the event much easier to play out and alter depending upon what the characters actually do.

With a busy event such as this try and break the events down to what is important and what is not.

Good luck and let us know how it goes

Delvesdeep

Delves, those lists of pre-made magic items were great. If you could do some more of them, you'd make me (and many other lazy DM's) VERY happy people.

OK. I'll see what I can do.

I'm busy writing up a side trek for my party at the moment and also have plans to write up the Seige of Redgorge but I'll try and write up Chapter 7 (with notes on what happened to Skies during Chapter 6) after the side trek.

So probably in the next few weeks depending on my other great great distactions - family and work.

Delvesdeep

I used Skylar.

In my game Skylar was secretly betrothed to Triel before she murdered the other gaurds in her patrol when they inadvertantly discovered her involvement with a small hidden cult of Hextor within the city.

Skylar had been investigating the events surrounding her disappearance in an attempt to reunite with his lost love who he would not believe could commit such a crime.

Months a go Skylar was contacted by an alleybasher informant keen to accept the reward Skylar was offering for any information on Triel.

Since this time Skylar has been attempting to follow her movements and has become convinced that she has been caught up with the same cult that once influenced her to murder the other gaurds.

Skylar contacted the party in secret and was willing to help the group on the understanding that he was coming along for the voyage and that they were not to harm Triel.

As the adventure progressed the party became closer to Skylar and eventual learnt her was once engaged to the suspected murderer. This also assisted in foreshadowing later adventures where Skylar was directly involved (Demonskar Legacy).

It also made the battle with Triel even more dramatic as she coldly told a weeping Skylar that he was pitiful and that her love for him was but a laughable memory. She struck him down before a much heated party charged in determined to kill the Triad leader.

Now Skylar is a close NPC ally to the party and I intend to use him again during the Seige of Redgorge after the Demonskar Legacy when he is part of the invading forces lead by Teresong.

All in all though the above posts provide an abundance of alternative suggestions to inform the party of the larva tub and Triel so the hard part now is choosing. A great problem to have in my opinion.

Have fun

Delvesdeep

I'm thinking I'll have to purchase the Lords of Madness book now or drop the idea for the adventure all together. I know which options cheaper!

I've heard something similiar about beholders and their form. I also understand that it is in their nature to loath others of their kind and attempt to kill each other on 'sight'.

I'm gald to hear the 'Mother' type can create a cache and control others of her kind. This would fit into my basic story.

What about the elder orbs though? Are they as power as one of these 'Mothers'?

Thanks for all your help

Delvesdeep

I was unsure whether to post this up here or on the SCAP forum but I thought my question was more generic so here it goes....

Beholderkin -

What types are there?

What are their differences?

Are they all underpowered versions of the original?

What types and how many would be found in a cache of the creatures?

Potential Side Trek
The motivation behind the questions is to create an adventure where the players investigate the disappearance of Cauldrons Lord Mayor which leads them to Sasserine (my own SCAP version) and Vhalantru's original beholder cache.

The idea is that, before his untimely demise, the Lord Mayor had grown particularly suspicious of Vhalantru and sought to personally investigate the mysterious nobles past. Rather than hire someone and risk betrayal the Lord Mayor forged a letter from a family member urgently requiring his to travel to Sasserine.

Under this guise the Lord Mayor travelled to Sasserine and attempted to discover more about Vhalantru. Ultimately his investigation leads to the discovery that Vhalantru is an imposter and the real noble went missing years a go.

Finally following the real nobles last movements before his disappearances led the Lord Mayor to the Beholder Cache where he managed to flee. Unfortunately for him, the beholders were able to warn Vhalantru of the discovery and when the Lord Mayor returned to Cauldron he was quickly desposed of before he could recount his discovers to anyone...

Anyway this is just my basic thoughts at the moment.

Any help with the Beholderkin or the side trek in general is more than welcome.

Delvesdeep

Fang - I think I remember reading that Sacrem could not be raised because his tongue was removed leaving him not 'whole' and thus not meeting the spell requirements.

Resurrection is an option but not from any of the clerics in Cauldron other than Embril. Jenya would be loath to seek out another churches aid especially the Church of Wee Yas.

An option though could be that she keeps a small portion to have Sacrem resurrected in Sasserine at a later date when she acquires enough funds.

It never came up in my game but if it did I probably would have explained it away by stating that Jenya had spoken with dead and used the Star of Justice to see if Sacrem wished to be returned to the world but he did not. He had felt the mantle needed to be passed to Jenya and that he now knew that his passing needed to occur to awaken her strength and to eventual save Cauldron from evil or something like that...

Delvesdeep

Delvesdeep-

Your Demonscar Ball material was AWESOME! I am using it in my SCAP campaign. They are in the middle of the ball right now. A PC just won the Song of Heaven competition. Literally, my players were so geeked about this that I actually had fighters taking ranks in perform (dance) just so they didnt embarass themselves at the ball, and a ton of dance and etiquitte lessons.

This has really been a model for me for the "pure roleplaying" encounter. It is really really great. If Necromancer Games ever does an Adventure Path, I am giving you a call for suggestions :)

Clark

Thanks Clark! I'm glad I posted it up in the first place. Initially I was just going to use it just for my group and not bother placing it on the RPGenius website. I really didn't think many people would be interested.

Vendle - a possible adaption you could make at the end of the Ball before (or during) their trek towards the Kopru Ruins is to have the Stormblades find out about the missing wands and have them hunt them down too. It would then make the adventure a race as well as a mission.

Imagine if the Stormblades found the wands first......:)

Delvesdeep

I had the clerics planeshifted to Occipitus where they were left on the Plain of Cysts by Embril. I reasoned that her plane shift went 'astray' (she was unconsciously influenced by Adimarchus dreams) and she decided to place them with the fallen angels as an ironic burial.

The players may find the bodies which would reveal the lies behind their deaths but still not pin point their actual killer/s.

Perhaps the meer face that they were not raised/resurrected by the Church of Wee Yas would further spark suspicion. If the party investigated their graves and found them empty the alarm bells would be defeatening...

Delvesdeep

That's interesting. I've always played that the curse is similiar to a highly infectous disease similiar to mummy rot. I've never heard the infection differiated like that.

You could have a ball with this one and twist it any way you prefer. Perhaps because the Wererat was not natural his infection is not as strong therefore not effecting the character as strongly or not bestowing all of a wererats typical powers.

Perhaps the character gains some of the Wererats benefits but misses out on the alignment change. Perhaps he grows more hairy, twitches his nose continuously and gains the ability to change into the hybrid but not a giant rat.

You could have a lot of fun with this if you went down that path.

Alternatively, if the curse is going to cause you too much work and divert the party too far from the task at hand, you could simply rule exactly as the people did on the thread you mentioned about Tongueeater - that the wererats were afflicted so therefore do not pass on the curse at all.

I don't know about you but I find that ruling a bit hard to believe. If you get a disease then surely you can pass it on...but thats just me.

Good Luck

Delvesdeep

Drakthar proved a real challenge for my party when they entered his lair many moons a go. I had him ambush the party, hit them hard and then flee in gaseous form approximately 5 times before they eventual killed him and found his lair to complete the job.

I'm a big fan of Mhad. I enjoy the imagery of her and the wraith cloak she wears. I would like to foreshadow her more before the actual encounter during Lords of Oblivion.

I'm toying with the idea of having the party undertake a side trek to retrieve the Earth Weird and then travel to the Haunted Village to retrieve an ancient kopru liches skull from beneath the lake. Perhaps I can have Mhad make an appearance her.

If I set the mission to the Haunted Village after Lords of Oblivion then I may attempt to ensure that Mhad escapes the encounter so that I can use her in this side trek. I'll have to think more about it.

The Necrotaunts (sp?) would also colour this side trek as well.

In any event I have always enjoyed vampires if they are used sparingly and as main villians rather than simple encounters. Mhad could prove a great recurring villian or, depending on the circumstances, a valuable alley...

Delvesdeep

Having the Ball at the start of the festival would work just as well. You may have to slightly alter some of the accolades the players recieve because saving the city from the floods is one of them.

Rufus never made it to the Ball im my write up but Koramado is correct having Jenya there may prove a dramatic end to the night. You would have to figure out how she interacts with the other nobles, where she is seated, if she plays a roll in the festivities etc.

I would most likely use Foundation of Fire as a guide and more specifically the election of the new Mayor. She is described as being overwealmed by the event, quite and unsure of herself. If you do include Jenya have her as a background figure who approaches the party initially when they arrive and then once again when they recieve their prizes. You could then use Koramados advice and have her recieve the sending in their presence.

Alternatively she could be waiting outside as you suggested or gatecrash the events during the final dance (after the awards) to inform them.

I'm not sure whether Jenya would approach the Stormblades over the party given her assumed relationship with the group. What may happen though is that a Stormblade may overhear and offer their services as an alternative. This will motivate the party to get moving even if the sending does not.

The Stormblades may even arrive to save the day during the battle with Tongueeater and take great pleasure in telling the city then how they rescued the party and defeated the villians.

When the party returns they may hear how the Stormblades are seeking the wands as well and the adventure may become a bit of a race.

Anyhow just a few random ideas

Ultimately when and how you run the Ball is up to you. As long as you and your players have fun.

Delvesdeep

I just read through the Hard Cover last night and it mentions that the Earth Weird has retreated to the Elemental Plane of Earth. Now if this is the case I may have the party enter the Eaths Dormant Pool (with assistance of the Foreman) and attempt to find her.

One possibility could be that she has been 'captured' by Earth Genies (sorry I have forgotten there names) and the party will need to work their way through the great tunnels and caverns of the plane, battling some of its natives, before attempting to bargain for her freedom. Perhaps they decide to send the party off to battle a particular troublesome creature, retrieve an item or even have them help brooch a trade deal with the local uncooperative dwarves.

When she returns she will be very greatful but will need the dust of a kopru liches skull from the Haunted Village before she can regain her strength/foresight ability.

She will then foretell Cauldrons Doom etc - see Olivers post above.

What do you think?

Any problems/advice?

Delvesdeep

Hey, Delvesdeep, nice work with the Demonskar Ball and Skie's Treasury and all the other stuff you've posted on RPGenius. You've really helped make our game a lot more alive--and inspired me to do even more. Thanks for sharing!

--Fang

Thanks Fang! I'm currently writing up the Haunted Dreams and a few side treks specifically for my game. Following this though I then plan on writing up the Battle of Redgorge and another side trek about retrieving the Chisel's Earth Weird before the disaster. Both of these I will post up on the RPGenius site if you are interested.

I'm glad you have enjoyed my work. It's always nice to hear what you have done is appreciated and not a waste of time.

Thanks

Delvesdeep

The Demonskar Ball

I'm a bit biased but it is a good roleplaying side trek that is designed for the SCAP to be played before the Demonskar Legacy.

Delvesdeep

I did it exactly the same way as Koramado placing the Ball directly after the Kopru Ruins but before Zeniths Trajectory. It seemed to be the best fit with a little bit of downtime for the party to prepare for the event.

You could fit it in before the trek into the Kopru Ruins but I think the party would be too distracted hunting down Triel and locating the wands as the water increases in the city to give the Ball any justice.

You could even fit the Ball in after Zeniths Tajectory if required just as long as it is run before the Demonskar Legacy it should lose none of its focus and fun.

Hope it works out well

Delvesdeep

This information would have been very useful to me a week before I played this section. As it turned out though the party wiped the wet floor with the cleric with two criticals as he attempted to lock the door and flood the chamber. I had predicted that they would have had a huge problem even just hitting the armoured koa-toa but it just goes to show - you can't predict anything especially when chance is such an important factor.

Thanks for the errata though. The party have just cleaned up Ashanna, the Spearmaster and the whips & soldiers in the shrine. Any errata about the remainder of the complex would be more than welcome.

Thanks

Delvesdeep

I think, the Earth Weird disappeared upon the successful creation of the first Soulcage, this should be only a few weeks or days prior to the group arriving in Redgorge.

I like your reasoning but why did they disappear? Is it part of their own prophesy - something like: 'Hope will reclaim the earth before the truth of the hollow mountain is revealed' or something like that/another reason?
(Hope=party, earth=weird, truth=disaster, hollow mountain=cauldron)

Where to?
Perhaps there is an additional shrine dedicated to the Earth in the southern parts of the mountains surrouding Cauldron (I'm thinking about a castle on the top of a mountain).

So if I guess correctly you are refering to Jarls? This would be a good method for bringing the Hold and Frost Giants into play. Unfortunately for me I have another side trek planned where the players travel to Ysgard and battle Frost Giants so, even though it is a sensational idea, I don't wish to double up.

What about in the Haunted Village and a lost Kopru Ruin to the elements perhaps even beneath the lake? This would probably work better with a Water Weird but perhaps the temple is hidden beneath the village or was devated to all the elements?

Another option is to have the temple hidden on the outskirts of Sasserine in the dinosaur infested deep jungle. Or perhaps the Earth Weird is entrapped in the guidhouse of the Last Laugh or even in Lord Taskerhills manor (though this may give too much away to the 'neutral' NPC)?

A prediction of a mountain in flames and an assault on Cauldron from the powers of madness, what a better way to foreshadow the archvillain of this campaign? This way the player's will certainly make the connection between Occipitus and Adimarchus.

The prediction would prove very dramatic particularly if it occured just before the event. If the party learned earlier of the impending disaster perhaps they may attempt to evacute Cauldron earlier and locate the Cagewrights which may impact on the Foundation of Fire adventure so timing maybe an issue.

How would they make the connection between Adimarchus and Occupitus?

I have been trying to foreshadow this with dreams about occipitu and its fall into the Abyyss, that haunted caracters that failed saves against disease...

I've also been using the Haunted Dream trait to foreshadow Adimarchus, the Smoking Eye and Occupitus. Infact my 'dreams' have been more about snapshots of his life and a how he fell into darkness. I've thrown in a few instances of madness when particularly upsetting memories transpire in the dreams but as a whole I've used to more as a foreshadowing tool that as a random/incomprehensable jumble of insane thoughts. I just thought this would be a better method and tool to make Adimarchus more of a prominant villian/personality as the path progresses. Obviously you have planned along similiar lines.

A few more questions of my own -

What do you think the prophesy would be?

What gift would the Weird demand for the prophesy?
I was thinking something like the dust of a liches skull or a rock untouched by light possible found in the Haunted VIllage (see I knew I would involve the Village somehow :))

When should the side trek take place?

Thanks for your help

Delvesdeep

In the description of the Chisels Headquarters - The Hall of Carvings - in one section it discusses an Earth Pool in which a Earth Weird once dwelled.

Now I haven't got my Hardcover with me but if I remember correctly the Weird was brought there by Sundabar but recently disappeared.

I'm toying with the idea of sending my party on a mission to find the weird and bring her back for the Chisel.

Here are my questions -

Why do you think the weird disappeared?

How long a go did she vanish

Where did she go (Earth Plane, Elemental Ruins near Sasserine, etc)

Is it unbalancing to the game to bring her back - I believe Earth Weirds predict future doom

Any advice/discussion is extremely welcome

Thanks

Delvesdeep

There were several "accidents" that were caused by the Cathedral of Wee Jas.

I described it as two separate accidents -- the previous high priest was unfortunately crushed beneath a large stone block being winched into place during repairs to the town hall. The other high priestess accidentally drowned during a Flood Festival 2 years ago when she accidentally fell into the lake while wearing her armor. Conspicuously, Ike Iverson was present both times.

(PS - nice avatar!)

I really like the falling block explanation. Why not take it a bit further and have the block fall from the Cathedral of Wee Jas. When the party talk to the remaining cleric of Pelor he can tell them that his superiors were on their way to meet with Embril to complain about the construction when the accident occured. This will certainly raise suspicions towards Embril and Ike but not enough to act upon.

Great idea Archade. Sometimes I wish I could have my time again...

Delvesdeep

In my game I actually had the thief witness the assassination of the clerics by members of the Last Laugh lead by Jil during the first adventure. Soon after the party heard the sooriful tale of the two priests dying when they attempted to rescue a trapped family from a burning home.

In your case though it sounds like you are just about or are playing Flood Festival so that option may not be viable.

My advice is to have the party find out that they were murdered and not involved in some type of accident. Concrete proof is not available and besides a dubious Jenya, no one believes the party after all there were witnesses, they can show you where the 'accident' occured etc

Telling Tereson just rises his ire -

'I have no time for such investigations. The city gaurd is undermanned as is and looking into such an incident on the basis of someones hunch or word alone at present would be fansical. If you are convinced that the deaths were no accident, which I serverely doubt, return when you have stronger evidence or the murder in hand otherwise I have work to do.'

Good Luck

Delvesdeep

Its all good :)

I'm really looking forward to playing the STAP too, unfortunately I think that will be in 2012 judging by the pace of our SCAP campaign to date and after playing through the AOWAP. You will have to let me know if the STAP is so good that it warrants skipping the AOWAP altogether.

Delvesdeep

Not to quibble overly much, but...

I love it when people do this. It's like 'I'm sorry but..' or I agree with you 100%, but...' - you may as well not said the first part at all because as soon as you throw in a BUT in practicularly discounts what you have said up to that point. Not to quibble though....;)

..the main villain in the SCAP was Adimarchus, Demon Prince of Madness not Vhalantru. Orbius Vhalnatru was at best a lackey of the Cagewrights, and not even that high up in their organization. He was a good recurring Villain but certainly not at the top of the food chain.

I guess I should have clarifyed this a bit more. While Adimarchus is the ultimate villian and the cagewrights the group running the show from the shadows they are not the most memorable nor interesting villian. Vhalantru stands head and ...well he doesn't have shoulders but a long way above both these villians.

Vhalantru spends most of the campaign in a completely different guise possibly even 'assisting' the group while pulling the parties strings and manipulating the city towards the goals of his faceless leaders (who only become known just before the party kill them).

Of course this is all my opinion and you are intitled to your own and it seems clear that you are an Spawn of Kryss through and through. All I am really saying is that many people like to believe that the SCAP is AOWAPs poor cousin because it came second and that the writer learned from the first paths mistakes. And while I do believe they created improvements in the second installment I don't think they did so in every instance. To me the setting city of Cauldron is the biggest strength of the SCAP. I also believe that the work created by Dms to support the AP on such sites as RPGenius is sensational and I would even agree, I match if not better than what was presented in the Dragon magazine to help support the AOWAP.

I agree with you about the Hardcover, but disagree that it had the largest quantity of people running it because it was first. The reality in my mind is that far more people have run AoW because the idea of the AP had been around for a bit by then and people who subscribed to the magazine but didn't do anything with the SCAP decided they would give the AoW a go. That is sort of what...

The Hardcover is a huge strength and drawcard for the Path. The AOWAP just doesn't have it, plain and simple. They probably will eventually and I will be snapping it up when it is available but, as was shown with the SCAP, they make mistakes with the adventures in the magazines and iron these out when they compile them.

All in all though the Adventure Paths are a sensational concept and a great pulling card for DMs and players alike. I think they all have their own strengths and weaknesses but I find it too easy to say that each path will be better than the previous one in every way. They are all different, with different moods, feels and elements.

My advice is to play them all :)

Delvesdeep

I think both paths have there strengths and weaknesses but in my opinion Shackled City AP is the better adventure. Cauldron is such a rich vibrant city with a huge array of interesting recurring NPCs. Roleplaying is extremely easy with sucha backdrop and the players form a strong link with the location not just the task at hand.

Another strength of the SCAP is the main villian - Vhalantru. The fact that the party meet him in the first adventure and then, unbeknownst to them, have him continuely manipulate them for a long period of time in another guise before finally clueing into his superfudge is fantastic.

Another great plus for the path is that it has already been compiled and put into a Hardcover. This has made running the campaign very easy and enjoyable with everything together.

Finally becasue it was the first path with the largest quanity of people playing it, there has been a huge stockpile of resources, maps, pictures, side treks, support material etc written by DMs to help run it. A site called RPGenius has been put together containing hundreds of free downloadable material to help run the adventure.

Either way it sounds like you have already made up your mind but when you do finish the AOWAP make sure you run through the SCAP - it is a sensational campaign.

Delvesdeep