cp's page

It's an immaterial touch attack delivered via spell. It functions "as a scimitar" but is not a scimitar. It is one-handed and you are considered to be casting a spell, not wielding a weapon and therefor proficiencies don't enter into it. It is not a light weapon--it is an immaterial touch attack. You cannot hold anything in the hand that is wielding a flameblade.

Should be ok for weapon focus, yes?

You can buy and use a wand of cure light wounds because it's (a) on the cleric spell list and is (b) on your spell list.

All expendable items that use spells are assumed to have been made by a cleric or a wizard unless the spell in question is NOT on either of those lists. If the spell is not on either of those lists, then it is made as an item from the appropriate class and spell list. This prevents lesser restoration wands going for 750 gp.

Hey Joshua:

I think perhaps your rule maybe overly broad. Is the problem really druid spells, bard spells, witch spells etc, or is it simply the wand of lessor restoration? How about a few alternate approaches:

1. Just errata that Wands (etc) of lesser restoration cost: X, and Y prestige.

-0r-

2. That for purposes of availability, and prestige purposes (etc) that caster's level is the level at which they actually receive their first spell, not counting bonus spell levels.

I wouldn't bother spending money on magic on the armor. Rage, you're going to get hit.

how about making your weapon vicious, merciful? have a spike gauntlet, make it spell storing with a cure serious.

sooo any round your vicious merciful damage (not to mention the regular lethal damage from your opponent) - use a secondary or tertiary attack to hit yourself with the spiked gauntlet.

You'll cure your 3d8+3 regular damage, and a 3d8+3 nonlethal. Plus even without a cleric in the party, you can store your own spells...

Best first level?

Beat this, I dare you:

Gnome Oracle,

Stats:
Con 14ish.
Chr 18+2 = 20.

Mystery & Revelation: Pick what you like; Awesome Display.
Spells: Whatever.
Spell Focus: Illusion
Equipment: 4 scrolls of Color Spray. Or go chain shirt and shield.

So you'll have 5 ish clw. 10ish hp. And 4 color sprays that can knock even 6th level bosses out with a DC 17 will save.

ElyasRavenwood wrote:

Thanks for your answers this has been helpful. So strictly speaking the answer would be no, but there is room for interpretation.

I disagree that strictly the answer would be no.

Paizo has made SLA into almost the same thing as spells, and I don't see how this would be any different.

-James

Spell immunity can make you immune to sla's. (Read spell description).

Still, I would bet it wouldn't fly at least 1 time out of 3....

Let me second James advice.

Max the charisma, both for umd and diplomacy. You are completely forgetting about your summon spell ability; which you will be wanting maximum free uses of per day.

Seriously look at aug summoning. Although clear it with your ref first as there is table variation on whether the feat can be applied to a sla.

Seconded on the spell points bit. I've yet to ever see a system of that I really liked, but still, I'm open to see it attempted.

More Sorceror bloodlines, Cleric domains, and the like.

Level adjustment rules for more powerful PC races!

Racial substitution levels for all classes/races.

And a plethora of feats.

+1 on spell point system. Good spell point systems have been around for 30 years. Why not bring them mainstream.

Failing that, some metamagic feats for wizards (energy substituion)

A CMD feat that scales with levels and/or skill.

Allow CMD specialization: So a user can choose to take +1 vs grappling and a -1 vs sunder, for example.

Gish prestige classes.

Rather than + 3 weapons, how about vicious, merciful.
Tap in a cloak of the manta ray, or a +1 spell storing sap with 3rd level cure spell if you want some defense, or negate the penalty from vicious.

Instead of making the DC of a spell equal to the DC of the spell level,
add the casters level.

So instead of scaling at Level/2 (current) it scales at level.

So for example

First level wizard, casting a spell DC = 11 +stat mod.
10th level wizard casting a spell DC = 20 + stat mod.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Also, personal opinion, the penalty for metamagic feats are WAY too strong.

As a rough suggestion, instead of boosting the spell level, I'd subtract from the effective caster level.

So, for example, if you are a 7th level wizard and you want to empower the a fireball (2 levels adjustment isn't it?) you cast it as an effective 5th level caster.

Same idea if you wanted to widen it, etc.

Instead of adding +1 per die, I suggest making the dice open ended die rolls.

Rolling the max on the die means rerolling and adding dice. Your choice whether damage is still capped at 10 dice.

Ellington wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

And yet another silly rules exception will be born.

I don't get why people are always complaining about the rules exceptions of the Eidolon. It's better to have a lot of complicated exceptions than a broken class.

It's better yet to have something fit within the rules.

One of the strengths of 3.5 is that it builds a framework for things. Look at HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, ... they all fit into a framework.

The summoner and eidolon have cludgy 'fixes' that sacrifice this framework to avoid perceived issues that could be fixed in other ways that would not require trashing the current rules to achieve.

It's poor game design to need to have this many 'exceptions' and reflects badly on Paizo,

James

James,

Imagine if you were starting a game that had only fighters.
you might then argue that grafting magic use onto it 'was poor game design that required lots of exceptions'.

I don't think the features of the eidolon, nor the exceptions reflect poorly on paizo. But I do think the inability to see that the class was broken; and the number of iterations does reflect on the designers a bit.

Ravingdork wrote:

And yet another silly rules exception will be born.

I don't get why people are always complaining about the rules exceptions of the Eidolon. It's better to have a lot of complicated exceptions than a broken class.

Why have one when you can have *both*!!!

Well phrased. :-)

Seconding last poster - I don't think the different every time would seriously hold water anyway. I haven't ever seen any of our eidolons dropped....

I wouldn't buy a wand at all. Save your money for non consumable items. Pearls of power for example.

I *really* don't think you guys have any idea how nerfed casters under pathfinder.

I am generally terse, I try to suggest points rather than explain them.. but I'll expound in this instance.

There is no concentration skill.

If you are a wizard

Forget casting a spell in a web spell (10 + 19ish) concentration check.

Forget casting a spell while grappled (even if it has *no* material or somatic components).
Forget casting a spell on a rocking ship. Or any other distraction, like rain.

Forget casting a spell if an opponent has a reach weapon and a spiked glove. Yes even a spiked glove d3+4dam.. will make spell casting mostly impossible.

Prepare to have your spell casting shut down every time - when you're opponent readies an action "Ready for spell casting".

Forget casting a spell when damaged over time - like lava, or heat. Or underwater.

Or with an opponent that has "step up".

Or an opponent that tosses a handful of thunderstones... or while you're on fire from a simple alchemists fire.

Prepare to really have your casting crimped when your opponent sunders your spell casting pouch...

Without buffs, a 10th level archer can completely shut down a 20th level wizard "Ready for spellcasting". Name another class where that is anywhere near as probable.

..................................................................

Many have compared PFS with 1rst or 2nd edition. I too, liked the variety of surprise dice, the variances in intiatives. I liked that spells could be interrupted if you attacked the wizard while he was casting.

However, in 1/2nd edition, spells were about twice as powerful as currently. Spells have been nerfed every release. Check the changes to sleep spell, fireball (damage capped, hitpoints of opponents increased), polymorph, arcane armor, the various orb spells.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving to the current pathfinder campaign, wizards cannot craft...
a major strength of the class under 3x
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I play a wizard. The optimal build is a summoner. No other build comes anywhere near as close - and if you want to be a summoner - why put up with a wizards hp, ac, and useless stat (Int).

Instead - play a druid, with a pet.
Play a summoner with an eidolon.
Hell, play a fighter with 5 bags of tricks.
Play a cleric.

Doubt it? Summoning an Auroch does more damage than a fireball, can repeat damage , and sits around as an hp sponge.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

On the rare occassion that you aren't summoning - a wizard's raison d'etre is buffing other party members. He's become the 3.0 cleric.
Run a few totals. I would bet that the average fighter kills WAY more critters than the average wizard, decides way more encounters.

Do I even need to mention skills?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The rallying cry at most tables of course is "protect the wizard" (because the wizard certainly can't protect himself). But sotto voce who really needs a wizard at a table.

I know - because nobody plays one.

So what that story illustrates is that any casters will scream and holler that you are weakening their poor underpowered characters to an absurd degree. So ultimately the idea...

Put me in that camp.... I haven't seen a single other wizard over 4th level. As opposed to tons of fighters, clerics etc.

I'd be interested in the breakouts of #of characters by class....

Minor issue with Arcane bond wizards:

Its entirely possible that a wizard might spend significantly all of his money in the mid levels for the purchase of his arcan bond items.

However, under casual observation, it doesn't appear as if he can sell the item to pay for resurrection etc; the item is not magical and does not work or anyone else.

Sooo advancing to 6th or 7th level - and dying seems... with untouchable money tied up in your arcane item sounds kinda.. sucko.

Could this be errata'd so the wizard can sell back for purposes of death at the creation cost?

cp wrote:

There is no way I'd take toughness. Many, many choices better. For example Stoic....

Not available in a Pathfinder-only campaign like PFS Network play.

Stoic *is* legal. Check pathfinder society rules.

There is no way I'd take toughness. Many, many choices better. For example Stoic....

The only nerf arcanists got was to their spells, which gives me free reign to nerf stuff from the spell compendium (!)

No offense, but you're nuts. Here's just a few nerfs to spell casters:

1. Increased hit dice.
Your opponents hit dice increased in size. Your spells didn't.
Neuters blast type spells.

2. No concentration skill.

Welcome to grapple. You're dead!
Welcome to 'ready my bow to shoot the wizard when he starts to cast'.

3. Step up - and a number of class features that give similar abilities.
No more 5ft and cast for you!!

4. Yes the spells have been nerfed. Take a look at black tentacles, move earth, glitterdust to name a few.

5. Relative importance of skills. Used to be skills were one of the areas a wizard shown. Watch as the ranger and rogue snicker.

Take a look at D20 Pro. You can get a free trial.

Great battle simulator, good character modeler and compatible with herolabs.

Mul wrote:

8th Level Biped

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
BAB: +6
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Test this on a party of 5th level characters and let me know how it goes. Now don't forget to add the invisible buff buddy that comes with him.

Sure, I'm game for this discussion. To the sake of brevity in my response I've eliminated some of the superfluous statistics in your post. It doesn't really matter what his stats are beyond those above for the sake of the discussion.

Your monster has a 50% chance of saving against a 3rd level spell targeting fortitude, a 25% chance against one targeting reflex, and a 35% chance against one targeting will assuming the caster has a 20 in his casting score (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +2 magic item). Deep slumber effectively ends the fight 65% of the time, while slow cripples him for a round (until his summoner buddy can haste him to counter it). Ray of exhaustion which he fails against 50% of the time seriously limits his offense and defense (-3 attack, -3 damage, -3 AC, no charging, half speed).

Glitterdust (which you'll note also ruins his buddies invisibility) he fails against 40% of the time. IT does bad things to him, costing him 3 points of armor class and causing him to miss on half of his attacks. You can freely assume that after the first round he's failed a save against one of these effects. Take your pick as to which.

The fighter hits roughly 55% of the time without buffs (5 BAB + 4 Strength + 1 Weapon Training + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Magic Weapon) for between 9-22 damage, depending on how he is spec'd. A Two handed fighter will do more, while a sword and board will do less.

In return you will connect 35-85% of the time, again, depending on how the fighter is built. As an AC focus you'll hit less, while as a damage focus you'll hit more. Assuming you hit 3 times in a round you're likely to drop the fighter into...

Sorry. Way too many ways to abuse the eidolon. Standard buffs via umd at the least would include invis on eidolon and summoner.

Start of combat... summoner summons d4+1 to attack enemy rear (wizard).
(As its not an attack..... remains invis). Eidolon engages fighter. Eidolon drops fighter. Repeat.

Or Summoner casts haste or invis.

Vs a druid - umd a touch of idiocy.

A. Suppose your bonded object is a ring, aka invis.
Can climbing and swimming be added to it? Under 3.5 the answer was yes, additional enchantments could be added.

I believe the answer is yes, and at 2x cost. Comments?

B. Is their a feat to gain a familiar. Aka you're an arcane object wiz and you wish to have a familiar. Possible?

So the biggest impact is pre-combat buffing, post combat healing and the fact that the summoner can have summoned creatures available and active in the first round of combat.

And 8 per day....

Sorry. Summoners are just crazy broke.

Sat in a PFS mod. Two summoners soloed the whole mod.
Fireballs (bisons).
Healing (CMD)
Crowd control (summon).

Admittedly, the loss of the hit dice helped (a little). The loss of attacks. But .........

Hahah yeah I greased James Jacobs's character on Saturday after he got himself grappled. His character's a neat freak, too, so that was doubly fun.

As for reports, they have all been reported, so I wonder if perhaps a hand-writing issue is at play here. Email me the list of sessions you played in and include the following information:

GM Name/GM Number
Time/Date
Scenario Name/Your Pathfinder Society #

Then I can go through the sessions and see if some numbers were transposed or incorrectly entered. I've corrected a few of those in the last couple of weeks, so I wouldn't be shocked if this was the same issue.

Er I'm actually fairly novice on the paizo boards. How do I email you?

Okay so lets try this with some suggested changes

Brawler

d12 hit die

Brawlers progress at full BAB. Good saves are Fort/Reflex.

Brawlers gain bonus feats as a fighter except they gain no feat at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th level, 16th and 20th level

Proficient in simple weapons and light armor.

Class features
- 1rst Level: Gains IUS and Improved grapple as bonus feats.
- 2nd Level: Gains Grab (Ex): A Brawler becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Whenever the brawler makes a successful attack with an unarmed strike, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the brawler grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the brawler or smaller.
- 4th Level: Beast Grappler (Ex): The Brawler is considered large size for the purpose of initiating and maintaining a grapple, he gains a size bonus to his CMB checks to Grapple as if he was a large size creature. At 12th level he is considered huge size and his bonus becomes that of a huge creature.
- 8th level: Wrestler Moves at 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter the Brawler gains a wrestling move selected from the following list.

Choke Hold Every round a grapler maintains a pin the target must make a fortitude save DC= to 10+ 1/2 Brawler level + plus Dexterity modifier (to introduce a little MAD)

Arm Bar A brawler may add Arm Bar to his list of actions performable in a grapple, if the grapple check is succesful the target is disarmed.

Body Slam A brawler may add body slam to his list of actions perfromable in a grapple. a body slam deals 1d6 non-lethal damage + 1d6 for every 5 by which you beat the targets CMD to the recipient. The target is prone and the grapple is ended.

Fierce Slam A brawler may choose to deal lethal or non-lethal damage with his body slams. The recipient must also make a fort save DC = 10 + 1/2 brawler class level + dexterity modifier or be dazed for 1 round. A...

Wow this is really excellent! I'm actually not wedded to any particular concept - this looks like a good improvement.

What do other people think.. would this make a brawler a valuable party addition?

Also, can how does a 20th Brawler now compare with a fighter
(brawling and non-brawling).

cp wrote:

It is in *no way* similar to double bab.

First, adding class level to grapple does not increase iterative attacks.

There's no such thing as an iterative grapple. All there is is the grapple manoeuvre, which is a standard action (and, of course, every grappler will, sooner or later, get to maintain it as a move action, meaning two grapple checks per round).

You're making my argument for me. One of the posters said adding classlevel to bab was akin to double Bab.

I was making the point - there are no iterative bab attacks. So adding classlevel to grapples scales much less well.

Increasing BAB for a fighter increases a to hit chance, as well as increases frequency of attacks, qualifies for feats. Class level to bab does *none* of those things.

As for size modifiers, I was overgenerous the total modifiers could be -8 +8 for a difference of 16. But I concede that a net of +8/9 is all thats likely to be seen.

A grappler would have a reasonable chance to grapple a lot of things; Conversely a lot of creatures have opportunity to get out of grapple. Blink, Dimensional steps, countergrapple.

As for patronage:

The class weapons (cestus, spiked gloves, etc), will never appear on ARs; so the patronage is meant for the brawler to choose one item that will allow him to mitigate/enhance some of the effects of the class.

Perhaps an amulet of natural armor. Bracers of dexterity. +1 flaming gauntlets. It is also meant to simulate the effects of a patron and the slave pits - having little need of money they gladiators were profligate giving to their friends (party companions).

Class skills: 2+Int Jump, Acrobatics, heal

KaeYoss wrote:

cp wrote:

Brawler.

- Adds class level to Grapple.

Way too powerful. It's basically "double BAB". It might be "just" for grappling, but with that rule, you make it unlikely that anyone can withstand your grapples.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I don't think anyone would ever make a class that gave anything more than full BAB seriously.

It is in *no way* similar to double bab.

First, adding class level to grapple does not increase iterative attacks.

Secondly, in a usual fight magic weapons increase both chance to hit and to damage. Grappling, they do neither (there is a long caveat I'll discuss if it comes up).

So essentially a grappling character's abilities do not scale the way a figher's does, because of the inability to apply weapons.

Before you say that the class is overpowered (and perhaps it is, I like the feedback) compare a 20th level grappler with a 20th level fighter, as a means of making extreme example.

I think you will find that the grappler excels at grappling - but in all other ways would be very inferiour as a general fighter.

Finally, it is almost impossible to grapple advanced, huge enemies. Those that have images of Conan grappling the mighty snake - its simply not possible without this class.

Giants (and others) will have strengths in the 40's, size modifiers of 12+, and full bab on top of that. So even with class to bab a grappler would ordinarily have no chance. Hence the reason to lessen size modifiers.

Okay, this right here? This is what we call a critical design flaw.

Observe: Fighter has full BAB (check), d10 hd (check plus), good fort (check plus), a bonus feat at first level an every even level (check), a scaling (to +4) bonus when using weapons and armor (no check) and NOTHING ELSE AT ALL. This is all they get. ever. period. And they are the single most effective melee combatant in the game. No one else can match the damage and AC of a fighter.

Your class gets everything they do, except for a +4 ac, attack, and damage, but in exchange gets more hit points, better saves (which by itself is probably enough) and then a whole bunch of already overpowered stuff on top of it.

Hellooo...

I think you forgot the bit about .. essentially NO armor and only simple weapons. Weapons and armor are probably the definitive mark of a fighter, and the proposed class would in no way match a fighter.

However, what do you think of adding the following verbiage.
"While wearing no more than light armor, and armed either with {cestus, spiked guantlet, or his bare hands} a grappler gains the following abilities..."

Unlike a monk he does not get to treat his strikes as weapons, either.

Quote:

3rd Level: May treat an opponent as one size larger or smaller for the purposes of movement and grappling. May not be decreased or increased greater than the size of the brawler. For every three levels, the brawler may add an additional size category.

...okay. A couple problems.

First, the class can grapple a dragon with absolutely zero penalty. That's nuts. That's completely insane. Now, make it so he gets a bonus equal to 1/2 the difference in special grapple size modifiers, and you've got something. Maybe bump it up to equal the bonus at 20th level. But just flat out ignoring the dragon's size bonus doesn't make sense. Making so he gets a matching bonus that effectively does a partial negation works within the system and the setting, without causing my brain to...

Quite a bit of criticism, all quite quickly, so I'm just going to answer some of the more salient.

The class *cannot* grapple a dragon with absolute zero penalty.
I'm suggesting at third level, the grappler can treat a Large opponent as medium.

At 6th level, he may treat a huge opponent as two sizes smaller, etc.

Brawler.

- Adds class level to Grapple.

Class features
- 1rst Level
- 2nd Level: Gains Unarmed grapple
3rd Level: May treat an opponent as one size larger or smaller for the purposes of movement and grappling. May not be decreased or increased greater than the size of the brawler. For every three levels, the brawler may add an additional size category.
- 8th level: Blinding Speed. Once per day, the brawler may execute two grappling actions in an attempt to pin, as part of one attack. 1 additional attempt per 4 levels.
-10th Level: Patronage. A Patron grants an item for use, of a type useable by the character. Value up to 10000gp +2000 gp /level over 10.

Proficient in simple weapons and armor. 12/hp level.
Brawler levels stack with Barbarian levels (for rage)
OR with monk levels for Movement, and AC bonuses.

Brawlers progress at full BAB. Good saves are Fort/Reflex.
Gains feat as a fighter.

cp,

I tried looking through your sessions to get an idea of what scenarios you played and it appears that none of your GMs are reporting their sessions. Which is disappointing.

What scenarios did you play in? If every single one of them felt like the Wizard wasn't very good in them, that will give me a set of scenarios to re-read from a Wizard perspective.

My primary character for Pathfinder Society playtesting purposes is a Wizard--sure they run out of resources, but you can be very effective without resorting to just damaging spells. Invisibility + monster summons + augment summoning = amazing org play Wizard. :-)

That *is* frustrating. I was told the dragon con reporting was done. Another thing to check on. whats the best place to email you a list of scenarios. Happy to oblige.

As for non direct damage spells - I couldn't agree more. Wizards are primarily crowd control or 'get out of jail free' specialists.

By which I mean - grease for the grappled fighter. Phantom steeds when you're in a hurry. Fly... etc.

-Improved animal companion; stackable. Adds +2 to Rangers animal companion effective level.

-Spell trigger. Wizard/Sorceror may have a prepared spell that goes off on a specified trigger. (Fat chance).

-Spell stack: (Stackable feat)
Wizards may stack one spell per occurrence of feat. These represent spells that are cast but not completed that the wizard keeps ready by force of will.

Casting a spell from the stack is a swift action. For each spell in the stack the wizard receives -1 to attacks, skills, and saves, due to the mental strain of keeping the spells active.

Each time a wizard fails a save he must make a concentration roll(s) as each spell in the stack may be cast on *him*. Check until he passes the concentration roll.

A wizard must safely discharge the spells before sleeping. Any condition that interferes may cause one or more of the spells to discharge.
(slept, shaken, feared, nauseated, ...)

- Advanced spell mastery....

-Spell specialist. Casting of this spell does not cast against daily uses.

I wouldn't mind Fighters receiving more skill ranks per level (4 + Int modifier instead of the current 2 + Int modifier, or maybe even more), and allowing this versatile Fighter to add any 2 skills to his class skill list.

Oh please. Fighters (Hit it with a stick) get the same skill ranks per level as wizards - you know the guys that are supposed to know things about arcanum, and history, and planes and....

Since most groups carry some type of bag-of-holding, put a portable hole trap in the floor for them to fall into. *poof*

For even more fun, have whoever setup the portable hole stand a door or pedistal with a ruby or something similar so that the group just thinks they need to head into the "pit" to keep going.

Awww he stole one of my favorites =)

Players usually outgun encounters. However they *rarely* chose to specialize in movement the same way.

archers (arcane casters) that fire - and move away, will require limit fighters to single attacks vs full attack routines.

a spell caster with spell resistance may well ignore his own silence.
And can, for example ignore his own illusion.

So the party is walking down the hall, toward an (illusionary) door. The rakshaksa spell caster with a silence pebble sees them coming and buffs as they check the door for traps (will check) listen at the door (will check), open (wtf???!) the door.

Combat begins with the door (snicker) shut and a darkness going off.
Then a black tentacle.
Then a fireball.

Very few scenarios have to be completed on a timer. For those scenarios that do, I endeavor in development to make sure found items and encounter balance is favorable to folks who need to rest to reset their cannons. For the OP, are you running with the same GM or with different GMs? In my experience, if you need a rest, then most GMs will figure out a way for that to happen unless, of course, you're in one of the few timed adventures.

Thanks for responding Joshua;

Four adventures at cons, three different judges.
Remainder at game days, three different judges.

The refs and the adventures both during play and after seemed deliberately slanted to require no resting.

To answer some of the other comments:

I play a bonded specialist. 20 int, getting the bonus specialist spells, the bonus int spells, the bonus item spell. Fourth level

So, I have roughly around a dozen spells plus 8 acid arrows. We have 5-6 combats totalling something like 28 rounds. Yes this module is rated as a killer - but I'm playing with a bunch of power gamers as well.

At the end of the mod, I am out of spells, scrolls, acid arrows, tanglefoot bags.

It isn't a question of squandering resources. 28 rounds of combat means that *any* wizard character is out of useful resources, well before the end.

I don't care if this happens occasionally; in fact I appreciate it.
However, I am stating an opinion that it has been overdone - and joshua I can provide scenario numbers if that would be useful.

Obviously there is variance in tables, and geographically. However, in 8 tables, I have seen one other arcane caster.

I would be interested Joshua in the breakout by % of the registered classes, specifically straight classes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Morphing the discussion,

Wizards have been nerfed quite a bit:

a) There are several conditions that make spellcasting nigh impossible.
An archer readied; grappling; violent movement. The lack of a concentration skill renders a wizard useless, often. And while it may be good for balance it occurs too much to be really fun.

b) Increase in hp vs no increase in spell damage. (both increases in hitdice and increase in max neg for most people). Bonus hp due to favored classes.

c) Feats like step up; improved counterspelling.
d). Bonded item specialists spell failure without item in hand.
Disarmed. Asleep. In jail, etc.

These things are easy to write into encounters and so occur so frequently that they represent another defacto nerf.

I understand the requirement to balance wizards; however I would make a couple of assertions:

that the core arcane suffer especially in comparison to later additions such as witches, and oracles.

that the 'fill in' abilities of wizards, acid arrow for example, and or the 8th level abilities gained by some specialists are too 'light' to be of practical use; they scale insufficiently.

Some suggestions:
a). Allow an arcane (sorceror) to pick one spell two levels (one level) below his top spell, that he may cast freely.
b). Give a better special ability. For example, enchanters may cast charm person at will. At 9th level they may charm monster at will.
(if thats too strong, downlevel it somewhat, applying a -2 penalty to DC, or 1/2 damage or..)
c). Allow a caster to cast in an emergency, treating the pages of his spell book as a scroll
d). Incantationist feat: By taking 2xlevel of spell damage, and making a spell craft check, and incantationist can cast a spell using his body as a spell focus.
Either the spell isn't exhausted, or some other advantage such as may remove V, or S, or F. (or by paying 6xlevel, may remove all three).

etc.

a. 110 ft deep pits.
b. fireshields (etc) where the eidolon takes damage on every attack.
c. DR
d. AAAAAAGH a monster! Kill it! (panicked townsfolk).
e. For a home game, have one game where you have to return to the eidolons planet - and every encounter they face is an eidolon tricked out even better than he has.
f. A really good grapple.
g. Outsider aligned weapons. Rangers specializing in outsiders.
h. Setup a situation where the summoner and the eidolon want to switch places. Have delay teleport - where the eidolon is now out of the combat for a few rounds....
i. IF its not an eidolon with pounce... running battles where the opponents are using missiles or spells.
j. Through the looking glass.... everyone reduces to size tiny.
8x1d2 attacks is a whooooole lot less impressive.
k. Ray of Enfleeblment. Or slow.
l. Porcupines.
m. Poisoned porcupines.
n. Telekinetic thrust to throw him 150 feet.
o. Have them on a different plane. They have to cast dismissal to get home. Combat encounter when they arrive (minus the eidolon) optional.

We reached no such well reasoned conclusion.

Look, fundamentally whats going on is this.
You have several kinds of actions. You have move actions, std actions, swift actions, full round actions.

Usually you either take a std action (attack) and a move action, or a move action and a standard action. So you either attack at the beginning OR end of your move.

What spring attack lets you do is take a move action and an attack action - and let your attack be at any point in your move action.

Ignoring the case of an adjustment, as soon as you move you are EITHER taking a move action or a charge action.

Charges are not moves, moves are not charges. A charge is a special full round action that lets you incorporate an attack as part of the full round action. As soon as you TAKE a move, you *cannot* charge.
Look at the chart on page 183 where charge is NOT listed as a move action.

Your argument boils down to .. because I am moving while I charge, I should be able to make a spring attack.

By the same logic, becasue I am moving while my mount makes an overbear (free hoof attack) I should be able to make a spring attack.

I have played 8 scenarios with a wizard character.
7 of these same scenarios had plot constructions that REQUIRED the the scenarios to be completed in one day. AKA No resting.

In contrast, I have encountered ZERO scenarios that have required fighters to to fight without weapons.

I get that spellcasters are supposed to be nerfed. I get that judges want to speed the game.

But really its getting to the point where it becomes black humor. Guess-the-idiotic-plot-hook-that-will-require-you-to-finish-it-in-24 hours-THIS-time. Its like a 24hrs the Fantasy RPG.

Puhlease!

Additional Questions:

1. The Errata says that an eidolon may use a shield. Can this be chosen by the armor evolution? Can it be chosen via feat?

2. The Reach ability says:

"One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet."

Give an eidolo with 4 pairs of claws. I would rule that only 1 claw has the extended reach.

Comments?

In several places regarding the eidolon it states that the eidolon must have appropriate appendages, to use an evolution pool.

Usually I would say - arems are necessary. However if you have a tail I would probably allow some weaposn to be used.

So I talked to the DM. I told him all that transpired here. He said for a total of 5 feats (3 from the Eidolon, and 2 for me) that I can pull my move off. as long as i move no more than 40' on the eidolon and suffer the benefits and penalties of charging, i can ride by attack/spring attack a target. :)

I'm surprised he doesn't let you fly, and shoot arrows out of your nose.

This is my group’s playtest of the Cavalier, Inquisitor, Summoner, and Alchemist. First, I will list their stats, then how the game ran, and then the group’s thoughts and feelings.

Characters:
First, the group also had a Swashbuckler and Warlock from WoTC’s Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. Halfway through, the Swashbuckler died, and was replaced with a Cavalier. I will not list the Warlock’s or Swashbuckler’s stats unless you want them. Each character had 20 points to generate their characters with using the core book’s point buy chart. All characters are 3rd level. I will only list the skills and 0-level spells of the characters if you want me to.

-Inquisitor:
-Race: Shifter (from Races of Eberron book. I took liberties and said that the Shifter receives a +2 to Wisdom and Constitution to bring it up to speed with other Pathfinder races, in addition to the other positive and negatives to stats the race receives.)
-Stats: Str: 14, Dex: 15, Con, 14, Int: 12, Wis: 16, Chr: 8
-Options: Choose Rune Domain.
-Feats: Dodge, Combat Reflexes
-Weapon: Glaive +1
-Armor: Chainmail +1
-Spells: Cure Light Wounds, Bane, Shield of Faith, Magic Weapon

-Summoner:
-Race: Human (+2 Chr)
-Stats: Str: 10, Dex: 12 Con: 13, Int: 14, Wis: 10, Chr: 16
-Feats: Dodge, Magical Aptitude, Rapid Reload
-Weapon: L. Crossbow
-Armor: Studded Leather
-Spells: Shield, Protection from Evil, Magic Fang
-Other: Amulet of Natural Armor +1

-Summoner’s Eidolon:
-Build: Serpentine
-Stats: Str: 15, Dex: 17, Con: 13, Int: 7, Wis: 10, Chr: 11
-Evolution Options: Limbs (2, Arms and Legs), Claws
-Feats: Multiattack, Dodge

-Alchemist:
-Race: Dwarf
-Stats: Str: 14, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 16, Wis: 12, Chr: 8
-Feats: Medium Armor Prof., Dodge
-Weapons: Warhammer, L. Crossbow, Acid Flasks
-Armor: +1 Chainmail
-Extracts: Cure Light Wounds, Shield, True Strike
-Notes: Didn’t own any poisons.

-Cavalier:
-Race: Halfling
-Stats: Str: 14, Dex: 14, Con: 10, Int: 11, Wis: 12, Chr: 16
-Class Options: Order of Sword, Oath...

Sorry Goblin: These you posted in the summoners thread that you did a pbp comparison of summoners v other classes.

This is NOWHERE near an optimized eidolon build.

Uh, guys.

This class is hands down the most broken class there is. Yes post-nerf.

And its not broken one way - its broken three different ways from sunday.

Sure, you got rid of armor. Irrelevent. Armor exists to manage the loss of hitpoints due to combat. Since an eidolon is resummonable its equivalent to adding an additional fighter to the party.

The summoner manages to exacerbate the problem of the druid:

The eidolon is as good as any fighter at the table - and on top of that casts spells arguably better than sorcerers, due to available spells.

Secondly, the class scales very poorly, either as a pc or as an npc.
Create a party designed to abuse this: Bring animals, bag o tricks, have familiars, and other summoners (conjurers, druids...) and start whipping out the mass buffs .. and watch as the table dissolves under sheer weight.

Lastly... With three summoners alone I can break 80% of the mods out there. Why play anything else?

The possibility of cheese is.....beyond belief. Take 8 claws - and rend. 11 tentacles. Have the summoner cast enlarge person on himself, sharing it via link to his eidolon.

My proposed fix: Forget the spellcaster. Just let eidolon be a new race / class. Its still WAY strong; you might have to add vulnerabilities. (also cool if the player could choose vulnerabilities).

For example: dimension instability: Creature takes 2d6*level from movement spells (teleport, move earth). Suceptibility to fire.
Imperfection (randomly each day: club foot, defective arm etc).

Eidolon gets evolution points that can be spent either on evolutions or removing defects...

mdt wrote:

Lord oKOyA wrote:

rmbrodeu wrote:

5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...

For what it is worth, James Jacobs replied to a similar question in this thread Why Are Weapon Energy Effects Command Word Activated with this:

James Jacobs wrote:

While it's a command word to activate or deactivate a weapon like a flaming or a frost weapon... once activated it stays on. Sheathing it suppresses the energy automatically, and when you draw the weapon later it's ready to go. You'd only want to turn off the energy effect, as a previous poster said, when you're facing something that using that type of energy against is a bad idea.

Other than via antimagic, dispell magic where is this hypothetical suprression documented?

Also suppose you had flaming caltrops... and you dropped them. Is it really a good idea to believe they could *never* be picked up again?

Rings, etc activate for caster-level rounds. It seems a far more reasonable approach.

Would you allow said paladin to make a quick dismount as part of a charge when attacking an opponent on the ground?

*if* the charge resulted in a valid attack vs an opponent, and if a dismout is a free, or swift action due to ride skill, I would allow the dismount after the attack.

A charge action is a special action where the movement and attack are integral.

I would not allow the dismount before the attack, aka to increase movement or get reach for an attack.

Paladin specifically says he can lay hands on him self, as a swift action.

Laying on other people takes longer.

Further questions:

Can a wizard use a Necklace of Fireballs as a bonded item.

I would say yes. Why or why not? Does the logic apply to any item worn in the neck slot?