Yes, LG = Living Greyhawk. The thing that was cool about LG was there were mods composed on the local level, the regional level, and then at the national level. Meant there were a lot of cool plot lines, a lot of personality. Some regions were evil - and it was hard to play a paladin. Others focused on dwarves or elves. Generally, I would say the writing was better than current, and there were hundreds of mods released every year.
More FAQ's, errata's. More unique items available in interactives. Retained or replicated the LG system for local / regional / national game play. Better Organized Play environment. (not criticizing anything but the premise. Pathfinder society centralized control - but it also prevented richer and faster development of the game world.)
Scott, 1. Paizo writes game rules not legal contracts. They are often interpreted in different ways. Nonetheless, game designers introduce these rules. Games are played. And how things work becomes canonical. Cevah, Ferious, I telling you how things are is evidence -of what canonical play is and is reprrsentative of what the op will face if they attempt your suggestion. 2. Our previous grapple thread, where after ridiculous number of pages you finally conceded you were wrong,suggests you don't understand grapple rules. 3. I quoted the rule to you. "If you do not release the grapple" & ff. For your understanding of the rules to be correct, you are saying the designers contradicted themselves in the same paragraph. 4. Of course one can make multiple grapple checks. No one disputes that. The usual mechanic is this: Grapple.
Yes,feats change the type of action. No one disputes that either. 5. What is incumbent on you, is to find language that defeats the existing language: Specifically:
Ie wording that allows you to break the standard condition on the type of action a grapple check is, says nothing about getting multiple checks in a round to maintain the grapple. It is the second rule you must find a rule quote for, and you have not. Another thing you must find
"On subsequent rounds..." So please quote the rule exception that allows you to break these two conditions. The rule that gives you +5 to grapple in the same round, and the rule that specifically allows you to make multiple attempts to maintain. And thirdly, mate, if you fail to maintain, the victim becomes ungrappled. You don't get another attempt to maintain the grapple. You may, with the appropriate feats attempt to grapple again.
Yay. Another 40 page grapple thread with Scott. Suffice it to say, if you plan to run with Scott's interpretation that it will not work at most tables. Hair is a natural attack. Only one creatute may be kept in a grapple per limb. Second: progressing a grapple (to pin etc) isnt the same as maintain. Maintaining the grapple is done one time at the beginning of the round. The grapple feats change what kind of action you have remaining ". If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)." **A** check,
cuatroespada wrote:
I didn't omit quotes. So I am left wondering what the hell you are talking about. Regarding the rest of it. You are truly amazing. Somehow you can read my mind, what I understand about your argument. And you can interpret my reticence to want to get involved in a long rules discussion with someone who posts condescending and snide posts as not understanding. Bully for you. Quote:
Wow, so now you're an expert on what everyone else thinks, as well. Truly wow. Pleased to meet you God.Quote:
Yay! Quote:
And here you demonstrate the inability to separate fact from your legendary (in your own mind) opinion. Quote:
No it suggests I was careless in the former case and subject to automatic word completion in the second. I understand that *you, oh god" believe that non-lethal damage as well as ability damage - are all types of damage. Yay! I would however point out the text of chill touch: Spoiler:
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level. An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level. Here's the money line: "An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort." Categorically saying that there are more than one kinds of damage, and that the undead will take no damage of either kind. Now, getting back to the crux of the argument. Pathfinder uses short hands and colloquialisms all the time. It is not a "rigorous" definition. Almost every single time that pathfinder refers to "damage" it is referring to damage that gets subtracted from your hitpoints. (Lethal damage). However, since that is the kind of damage more than 95% of the time - the lethal gets dropped and is understood. According to your argument - ability damage is a type of damage.
No so it clearly isn't "damage". Thus blowing a whole in your rhomboid argument. Ability damage - doesn't reduce hit points - it therefore cannot be a subclass - it is, indeed a parallel class. A different type of damage. {Watertank, Battle Tank} ∉ Tank.
No one I know allows dazing to work on calcific touch. If you wish to allow dazing calcific touch at your tables: Go right ahead. Its insane, but hey, its your game. So, we've established:
And finally: No amounts of insults or condescension on your part is going to persuade me; and I doubt I will persuade you. So instead of making character attacks or whatever - why not just state your case and leave it there. Do we really have to argue about it for 22 pages?
Atalius wrote:
AVR always gives good advice. Adding to it: You have almost the equivalent of a frontline fighter in your animal companion, which can be used as a blocker to block trouble, or as a mount to evade trouble. You have two good saves, saves being the thing that kills most non frontliners. IC is mostly a money sink: if you wish to avoid it you need to incorporate other methods of minimizing hits. Blink, Mirror Images, or a very good mischance.
Put me in the camp of "I will not play." This is a losing move for Paizo. You've been losing market share every quarter for 14 quarters. So.. whats management do? Fragment your existing user base. Brilliant. As I predicted a year ago - paizo would continue two trends:
So here is how all this is going to pan out. Paizo is going to create a huge disenfranchised group that will not move to 2nd edition. Paizo will not attract any new users to replace its old users? All those supposed new users are already playing 5th edition. Nothing in this will attract new players. Nothing says I want to play more than - oh, yeah. All your old investment is hosed, go out and purchase $300-$400 dollars worth of crap. What Pathfinder needed - rather than a rules reboot, was a better campaign. Micro transactionalize certs, to give paizo a slice, and then let independent judges set up a compelling world.
Omnius wrote:
Where? Where exactly are Fighters and Wizards promoted as equally viable adventurers. Because I've searched the literature and I don't see it.
Spoiler:
Adventure Awaits! Welcome to a world where noble warriors battle mighty dragons and powerful wizards explore long-forgotten tombs. This is a world of fantasy, populated by mysterious elves and savage orcs, wise dwarves and wily gnomes. In this game, your character can become a master swordsman who has never lost a duel, or a skilled thief capable of stealing the crown from atop the king’s head. You can play a pious cleric wielding the power of the gods, or unravel the mysteries of magic as an enigmatic sorcerer. The world is here for you to explore, and your actions will have a profound inf luence in shaping its history. Who will rescue the king from the clutches of a powerful vampire? Who will thwart the vengeful giants who have come from the mountains to enslave the common folk? These stories wait for your character to take center stage. With this rulebook, a few friends, and a handful of dice, you can begin your epic quest. My! Not a word about equally viable, or balanced, or fair.
I thought my basis for making a flat earth comment was fairly clear.
And the fact that they are willing to post means absolutely nothing. The style of argument is called reducing to the absurd. Mathew claimed that the fact that a dozen and a half people posted pointed to the severity of the problem; I reduced this to the absurd by making an analogy. Thousands of people claim the earth is flat. That doesn't mean it is. So yes, on the one hand I am comparing this comment to flat earthers. And, no, I am not commenting on posters (or even their position),at all. And I dislike your insinuation.
Matthew Downie wrote: But it's clearly a bigger problem than the people who say things like "disparity is a myth perpetuated by wizard-haters" believe. Fallacy of self selection bias; small sample size; and about half a dozen other problems. The fact that a disparity exists doesn't mean there's a problem.
If you play axis and allies - the allies almost always win. In neither case is it a problem. Just because a dozen people (out of hundreds of thousands) make a comment - doesn't mean.. A THING. You can get thousands of people to agree the world is flat. What does it mean? Not a damn thing.
Power builds break games, martials or casters.
Cooperative play means setting up your team members to contribute rather than glory hogging. Call it keeping something in reserve so you don't have 15 minutes work days or what have you. Martials dominate levels below 9. Casters dominate above 9. Means that for about 80% of PFS life, martials dominate.
Low will saves are survivable low levels. 5+ they are dangerous. However, rather than magic circle, or prot e, I prefer charm monster or similar. The duration of charm monster is days per level. Charm all your (low will) party members before going into the dungeon. Its a more predictable result (opposed domination effects) rather than the save or die. Toss in nostalgia oil.
Hardly hosed. One missile is hosed. Out of 5 on your quickened spell. In the very rare times someone has it up. And it is *very* easy to raise the DC of one spell. Which still lets you cast your standard action. As for shield.. Chain Lightning, shocking grasped is nerfed by mirror image. Hungry Darkness with 60'radius and virtually guaranteed to nuke your own party. And is an 8th level spell. Dazing ball lightning is beaten by a lot of choices - EFS, Resist 20, dimensional slides. Dazing Tar pool does half damage compared to fire ball until you're over 10th level; and still does less damage, at 7th level compared to 4. Chains of light doesn't do dmg and so isn't qualified for dazing. As for the DC Spell Focus, GSF
Getting high DC's isn't really an issue - especially since theres a lot of party debuffs madness domain, prayer, evil eye, misfortune, rerolls
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Silly Wolf. Efficient quiver is for wizards. Meta magic rods, wands, staves, scroll cases. And yes.. we need the weight savings.
Mark Seifter wrote:
What, like "that was a real Turkey?" Thats because you were a Russia-n too much. But.. if you're Hungary for more punishment, C'mon back.... Spoiler: A pun is the lowest form of humor... unless you thought of it first...
I don't think you understood what I said. The rules say what is required.
So if you are grappled, the penalty is -10. Boom, youre tied.
Essentially its Grapple - you win.
Gah! I knew I should have stuck to my guns. But I couldn't remember why. But perusing another thread - This question has *already* been answered by the Design Team. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qsrb&page=3?Amulet-of-Mighty-Fists-and-Gra ppling-Can-We#135 Quoting: "The answer is no. An amulet of might fists "grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons." [bold] You make a combat maneuver to grapple.[/bold] Not an attack - a combat maneuver.... So. Despite that you can take Weapon Focus: Grapple; despite the fact that humans make a grapple attack with empty hands or take a -4 to the check; despite the fact that hands are either natural weapons or unarmed strikes: Making a grapple with them is a combat maneuver, and not an attack (or the AOMF would apply).
Paranoia The troubleshooters come down the escalator into a subway station, where they are to board a subway to start their mission. Two cleaning bots are mopping up. Of course its a setup and the bots manage to kill 5 of the seven party, not however, including the fellow who had the huge, experimental area affect plasma weapon. He and his remaining buddy are nervous; wondering if they can trust each other; will more bad guys appear. I tell them there is a wooshing and a light coming down the tunnel. Without even a moments hesitation he opens up with the plasma weapon. At which I turn to the 5 players who were returning via subway to join their fellow troubleshooters... "Go ahead and add one to your clone numbers..." fnord!
Comments on Vigilante 1. I believe the class to be strong, but possessing inordinate amounts of fluff.
Double tapped, because all players should be able to be vigilantes. And the struggle to maintain secret ID's should be role played - not handled mechanically.
I'm Ezildor-Arcanist of the third Golden Circle.
One of these things is not like the other - and even by just a title has sort of spoiled the immersion.
Zombieneighbours wrote:
There is no defense for an intruder being in her home, and I detest your attitude. As far as I'm concerned this woman protected her family and her children and my only regret is that she did not kill him. You posit all kinds of noble intentions on behalf of the intruder. Lets posit some other ones. Suppose he had run off and broken into another home. Suppose he had raped her. Paul Ali Slater was a repeat offender. His experience with the justice system taught him to burgle houses and removed any deterrent affect the law may have had. Until he met mama. I sincerely regret that this man was shot. I sincerely hope that he will be able to rehabilitate and choose a better path for his life. But condemn this lady? Not on your life.
I notice a great deal of items that are game breaking.
Those I vote down, regardless. After that - pricing bugs me, because effects which occur too cheap are almost the same as game breaking. Subsequently I look for items that are useful. Wrap it all up with formatting, and good writing.
Instead of saying things we don't like, perhaps we can have one thread of things we'd like to see... Potion master: this may be chosen multiple times. Each time it adds one to the level of spell that made me made into a potion or infusion.
Clock Work:
Craft Understanding : Is unaffected by cursed items, and may at his option turn a crafting failure into a cursed item. Prior to UMDing a device or using a rod of wonder, may pre-roll the result. If he chooses not to accept the roll, may use not use the device for 1 round.
Magic Resistance: Can be taken multiple times. First occasion gives SR 11. Each subsequent give SR +4. Stacks with existing SR. Cannot be taken with Demonic Lucubrations. Demonic Lucubrations: Pick one school of magic. Gain immunity to that school, and susceptibility to an opposite school. Your visibile aura reveals your immunities. Friends in low places: Choose an outsider. Outsiders of that type start friendly, and will not attack unless you directly attack. Racial Paragon
Mythic Luck: Add +1 to all saving throws. You no-longer auto fail on a 1. Mythic wildshape Mastery: Choose one shape. Assuming shape does not count against uses perday, and can be changed into as an immediate action. Blood of Giants: For one use of mythic power, increase your size as a swift or immediate action. May be taken multiple times. Each time you may increase your size one category. Uncanny knowledge: Increase the crit range of a weapon by +1. Mythic Necromancy: Increase HD you may control by 4, per instance. Animating undead requires no material costs. Additionally, with each repetition you may animate greater undead: wights, wraiths, vampires.... Willing Avatar: You may confer a measure of your abilities and appearance on a willing agent. Agent receives mythic tier 1, and level abilities -2. You may observe your agent as a move action, at will. Avatar may call summon you as a swift action, which ends the effect and you may choose to answer the summons or not.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I don't understant your proposed solution: In order to enfranchise the Palestinians you want to disenfranchise the Israeli's? How is that a solution? The Israelis and the Palestinians can not live in peace together now, so your solution is let the Palestinians take over Israel - and you think that will result in greater peace how? The Israeli's have a functioning nation, with a working democracy. The have political and economic systems FAR greater than any other nation in the area. Their system of government has the best empirical results of any in the area. And you want to replace it with.. what?
The wish should have been twisted upon asking. I would not twist it because he killed the demon. For example: The demon might say - I have granted your wish - but in order for it to occur - you must eat the flesh of a living, sentient being. Then - once the player does that.. he finds out that the bonus is temporary.. it has to be renewed .. daily. Now that is the way a wish is granted from a demon - spreading pain and destruction..
Benrislove wrote:
There is nothing theoretically impossible about designing a mod to please both average and top players. Marathons segregate by age; bridge players segregate by skill level. So its certainly not impossible. But I think the mindset is for solving "uber" players is wrong. Uber players don't really care about the mod, and are probably more individualistic than average. They care about dancing on the edge of disaster - and the recognition that they have skills. So for example - like chess - they'd like to get ranking points. Just because pathfinder has no system in place to accurate rate challenges or character strength - doesn't mean it couldn't be done. With that done - you improve your ranking by winning the scenarios - the lower your power rating when you win - the more rating you gain. Death, of course, reverses that. Go that route - and you take pressure off the mod writers to be in an arms race with splat books and optimizers... .02
Feather fall and Emergency Force Sphere are the only two spells that come to mind as immediate actions. Immediate actions interrupt the normal turn flow and take place in the split second before the triggering action. So, in this case, featherfall is triggered before the falling condition is acquired. So, in that split second - you are not violently moving- in fact if you are considered to be moving at all you are moving at much less than the usual daily distractions of walking in a dark, dank creepy dungeon etc.
This is both RAI and RAW. I submit to your consideration that I have been reffed at official paizo events and this is how the spell has been reffed in these events.
But if this isn't enough, a bit about RAI:
a). We agree that the spell is *very* strong. The event in question however is called the cheesegrinder. Bring all the cheese you can find. So discussions about banning aren't conducive to the question. The question really is what do the rules allow. Lets look at other examples: Character A has a readied action that will interupt b's action. How do you adjudicate. (These are, for all purposes, the same as immediate actions). 1. Archer readies to shoot caster on casting. Caster starts casting. Archer shoots him. Don't you rule that the caster must make a concentration check due to the damage? Do you let him take a different action? 2. Barbarian charges 40 feet in a straight line vs a mage that has a contingency spell - ddor 400 feet up on a charge. Barbarian charges. Mage teleports. The barbarian was charging to a specific spot. Do you let the barbarian redo his turn because the mage tported away? Or has he used his turn? 3. Cleric readies a silence upon bard starting to sing. Bard announces he will use one use of bard song. Cleric casts spell. Bard fails save. Would you let the bard *not* sing - thus wasting the clerics silence? Immediate spells and readied actions *interrupt* another action. This means that the action announced continues after the immediate or readied action. Its not relevent what the cost of the interrupting action was - whether it was a readied action, a contingency, or an immediate action. In fact, the costs of an immediate action (and EFS) are quite high since it burns your swift action for the next round (which could be used to cast a quickend fireball) and it consumes a valuable spell slot. When you cast a spell, you announce the spell and the target. Neither of these things can be changed after the interruption, RAW. "You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action. You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round." People often confuse an announced action with a desired result.
The wizard teleports away, (readied action) just as the fighter swings.
The line " assuming he is still capable of doing so" refers to being incapacitated during the turn. So, for example, fighter A readies a spear against a charge. Fighter B charges him. Fighter A will roll his to hit against fighter b using Fighter B's lowered AC. He will do double damage on a hit. Only after the resolution of A's readied action will B then be able to complete the charge attack, if his is still capable (ie., not dead, unconscious etc).
GâtFromKI wrote:
Nonetheless Gat's comments are mostly *right*. I also made a few comments, after an attempt or two I quit trying to persuade the writer.I *often* take a 12 con with a wizard. And it isn't the hitpoints I worry about - its the fort save. So to say that toughness is blue - is just wrong. No less than Monte Cook said that toughness is a trap feat. If one of the architects of 3.x says a feat is a trap feat, I think you should consider revising your opinion. Gat is also more or less right on his ranking of persistent, & quickened. I don't really go for fighting oracles, personally I thinking fighting is for fighters - so I will leave the defense of persistent to him. Personally I suspect a rod of persistent is probably better than the feat. While a soundburst cannot be persistent (nothing instaneous can be) it can be quickened. Gat is also right about combat maneuvers. Combat maneuvers are COMPLETELY a waste at high level - and to my mind they get that way starting around level 10. It isn't only that your non-humanoid opponents are essentially immune to them- its that your humanoid opponents should have counters to them as well. Lets look at the counters to grapple: Grease + alchemical grease. Contingency, ring of blinking, FoM, conjuration school, Familiar with any of a variety of wands, Stilled spells... and the list goes on. So you are spending feats for something that I wll have a counter EVERY time by level 6. And the story is virtually the same for trip. To start off with - as a caster - I don't *care* if you trip me. And honestly - nor will a lot of fighter builds. Sunder deprives the party resource - and bull rush and overrun are NEVER more than situationally useful. Once every 5 games - maybe? Now one thing I do agree with the OP: Bouncing spell is definitely a good meta feat - and often overlooked. The game often comes down to action economy- you can't afford for your action to be of no consequence. Bouncing gives you a chance to affect the BEBG with a safe out if it fails. I do however agree with GAT as well that dazing is not as good for clerics as it is for wizards - whether it retains an blue or green rating is debatable. Fundamentally, Oracles lack magic missiles or a good 0th level orizon with an elemental trait and a reflex save. I tried to suggest that healing is also MUCH better than people realize - and that stacking healing has ABSOLUTELY changed the game. I have essentially retired a Cleric/Oracle because he broke the game. A couple of level dip of oracle with the ring/armor/headcap of mystery (being facetious) combined with the healing domain is very strong - and there are a lot of very strong combinations besides that one. When you are tossing out 90 pts a round of AOE healing that STACKS as temporary hp - NO combat based on hp is going to matter. Anyway I still applaud the writer for the effort it takes to write a guide.
Great guide, but a few suggestions. 1. Heavens: Dazzling display is so cool its broken. Get Heighten spell and boost your charisma - (and keep boosting it) you will be ending combats left and right. Your charisma is doubly leveraged - subtracting hd and adding DC. VERY powerful. thanatopic spell to let you affect undead. Moonlight bridge is *blue*. Need a forcecube to protect a party member - check. Need a ladder, stair, slide? Check. Need to block a door? Check.. Need the the slide to disappear while the enemies are on it? Check. Barrier to arrows.. check. Cmon man. Its a forcewall at ridiculous low level. 2. You have underrated Deaf. Deaf is freaking awesome. First there are a lot of ways around the down sides... read lips, telepathic bond, detect thoughts - hand languages. Second... you are immune to wail of the banshee. sonic lance. Silence.
You can use a silence spell with impunity - not to mention thunderstones. 3. Miscellaneous You are, if anything understating how much healing an oracle can do. Usually healing is a losing idea. However, when the extra healing stacks as temp hp.. its soundly ridiculous. Toughness on the other hand should be orange or red. 1 HP a level just nothing to right home about. Step up & Strike .. disrupt .. is not going to work with a caster worth his salt. Familiar activates a wand of mount then caster steps back - and you cannot step forward. Great guide.
True strike + Combat maneuver for the win. -or- quickened true+strike + magical lineage + Combat Maneuver. -or- Eggnog Monk (quiggnog) monk + true Strike +combat maneuver Or True Strike + Share spell with familiar + Combat maneuver (if you want action efficiency) -or- human Cleric with Saurian domain + luck domain with boon companion with
There are .. lots of ways to make combat maneuvers useful...
Ashiel wrote:
YW. Use it in good health. Thanks. This is my 4th or 5th most powerful build; made it as soon as UM came out. Been preaching it a lot with not too many believers. but you can fairly easily expect to lockdown 8-9 opponents in one round if you have need. Feats are not put in the order I would select them. I'd probably put Improved Init first. Being an Elf, you also have +2 to penetrate CL.
Even slightly stronger (in my opinion) is Rime.
Combine that with magic missile+toppling+elemental + lesser rod of quickening: you have entangled, prone opponents. Or Combine toppling magic missiles with stinking cloud.
Ravingdork wrote:
Ravingdork, I competed in the Cheesegrinder olympics and did VERY well using a dazing wizard. This is just encounter after nonstop encounter - and these aren't just CR level encounters - a party of 5 11th level characters can face CR 16, 17 or higher. You're wrong about the DC's not being competive, for three reasons.
I posted the builds and the DC's before. But here's an example at Level 11: Elf Diviner 11
1. SF
Traits: Magical Lineage: Snapdragon Fireworks
If you wish, some refs may allow additional traits to take magical lineage: Magic Missile, and lore seeker (three spells gain +1 CL). Equipment: Less rod of quicken 35K
So you're about 6500 K under cap. So init is : +5 Diviner, +4 Improved init, +5 Dex, +1 Ioun Stone = +15 Each round Toss off: Dazing, magical lineage Snap dragon, quickened with lesser rod.
Heightened Elemental Magic Missile
This is at 11th level. The snap dragons fireworks will daze for 1 round - but it recycles with a move action. Magic Missile potentially dazes 5 opponents for 6 rounds each. Once your opponents are doing nothing -your fighters can do the hp damage to them at no risk to themselves, at their leisure. And, unlike a blaster wizard, I'm unaffected by fire resistance or immunity as I have changed the damage type to cold or sonic, and, in the case of incorporeal since I am still doing 1/2 force damage - affect them as well. And Daze is not a mental effect.
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