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cnetarian's page

1,030 posts (1,037 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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If you can use a synthesist summoner the archetype requires a little tweaking to meet the concept, say change the summoning ritual of the eidolon to drinking a mutagen and with a bipedal eidolon and STR attribute increase at levels 1,7,13,19 you should have the following stregnth progression when merged:

  • level 1 STR 18
  • level2 STR 19
  • level 5 STR 20
  • level 7 STR 23
  • level 10 STR 24
  • level 12 STR 25
  • level 13 STR 27
  • level 15 STR 28
  • level 17 STR 29
  • level 19 STR 31
  • level 20 TR 32

  • Where money is on the line (casinos) dice are only allowed to be used for a limited time, usually 6 or 8 hours. But those dice get a lot of use and money is on the line. 6-sided dice shouldn't normally be a problem but 20-sided dice, especially if they see heavy use, should be replaced when they roll like marbles instead of bounce like dice.

    I reuse characters, because after too many years of gaming I've done pretty much everything possible so a new character concept is hard to find. Redoing them however never happens, they each develop differently because the role they fill is always different and they need to do different things.

    Take the two started identical straightjacketed sword&board pally front-line pallys I've played, they had identical stats to start but one went into melee (party had a bard, druid & wizard while the campaign was demon related) while the other became a more clerical type (party had a barbarian, wizard & rogue (maybe the last two were a witch and ninja but I was the only possible for a divine caster) and the campaign was more neutral opponents). Redoing a character can only work if doing the same things again with the same party, and I just don't have that happen.

    ElementalXX wrote:
    I actually complain about the dagger doing less damage than a greatsword. I believe players shouldnt be penalized for wanting to play an specific trope.

    It isn't as if there is a major difference between the two, a +3 holy bane dagger wielded by a smiting paladin using power attack in two hands for 1d4 + 40 + 4d6 does on average about 93% of the damage a similar greatsword similarly wielded for 2d6 + 40 + 4d6 does; and the dagger is easier to throw, lighter, and can do slashing OR piercing damage. Sure at lower levels there might be a difference between the dagger and the greatsword but comparisons were only valid at level 15+. /sarc

    Skyth wrote:
    If you want to fire more than once per round you need to pack multiple pistols. I wouldn't be adverse to upping the damage a little bit though (Give gunslingers a bonus to damage based on level?). However, same as I don't complain that a greatsword does more damage than a dagger, I wouldn't have a problem with a black powder weapon firing slower than a bow.

    You're kidding, right? A non-rapid shot/no haste level 6 musket master to have 5 rounds of combat effectiveness would have to carry 9,000 GP (and 54 lbs) of muskets just to make as many attacks as any other full BAB character wielding a greatsword while doing less damage? And the other martial character should have a magic greatsword, isn't spending 7gp/round in ammo while risking misfires, and doesn't have to worry about a GM putting a limit on how many weapons can be in a location where they can be quick drawn.

    I have this image in my head of a halfling gunslinger who ends combat in a circle of discarded pistols and them mutters lovingly over them as he reloads and polishes them, but much as I like the idea of a gunslinger who doesn't reload in combat, it just isn't practical.

    No real need to ditch buccaneer if it fits what you want, but without it I very strongly recommended the iron will feat, and also consider improved iron will. Without something to increase will saves (wisdom for instance) fighters have a glaring vulnerability, although a few levels of juggler bard would be a great help too.

    sound striker would be my choice, and it appears to stack with juggler. not sure how to use juggler though.

    Skyth wrote:

    I think the biggest problem with the firearm rules is the reloading. Downgrading time works as full-round->Move->Free when it should be Full-Round->Move->Swift.

    That would fix a lot of the issues right there :)

    except it makes level 3+ gunslingers absurdly weak. Without free action reloading a gunslinger is stuck at one shot per round, cannot use rapid shot, make an AoO with snap shot, and needs to expend a grit point to use deadshot just to have near the damage a similar level barbarian does with a greatsword on a charge. Free action reloading is one of those things that falls into the same category as weapon cord cheese did, not something gunslingers wanted but something necessary to make a build work. Unless you are also making deadshot free on all attacks or increasing gunslinger grit by a massive amount (2 per level + WIS?) then getting rid of free action reloading cripples the class.

    BTW, despite having been burned many times by misfires, I still like it as a mechanic. I like the unreliable DPR aspect of things, being great when everything comes together while knowing that a streak your own bad luck can shut you down (as opposed to the SOD magic types who get shut down by a GM's good luck). There is something exciting about how every attack roll by a gunslinger can change the balance of a combat from easy to epic.

    Is there a mechanical reason/RP necessity to go bucaneer over pistolero or vanilla gunslinger? Fighter and gunslinger are both weak in the will save department and the bonus from wisdom being the second attribute is kinda useful.

    For Revolver Ocelot I'd look at blind fighting => ricochet shot for feats.

    deadly aim is always useful. Snap shot & combat reflexes are rarely useful by themselves, improved snap shot changes that but prior to improved snap shot there are darn few times you are going to get even one AoO chance. Forget about improved critical, even with all those bullets flying around firearms just don't crit often enough to make it worthwhile.

    LuniasM wrote:

    A 6-BAB archer is likely getting 3 attacks at full-BAB and one at -5 that likely won't hit, so they probably won't bother with the 4th arrow. Though that does make things slightly more balanced for multi-shot archers and the like, it simply doesn't work in the first place - the spell copies arrows up to the material they were made with, but does not copy added effects from alchemical weapon because they are not inherent to the ammunition being copied. Special material types, sure, but not added effects. If you have any relevant FAQs I'd love to see them - I want this to work (my character would love the boost) but I just don't see how.

    With the extra damage per arrow it only makes for a 6 BAB archer to be using rapid shot and multishot which is 4 arrows although only 3 attacks or be a zen archer making 4 attacks as a flurry. Doesn't apply to crossbowman or slinger or other ranged weapons, but does to bows which is why dedicated ranged characters use bows (or are gunslingers). Throw haste into the mix, which is not unlikely, and an archer is using 5 arrows a round. This is why some people think archers are overpowered.

    As for AA, the spell description gives no indication that the replacement ammo created by the spell is any different than the ammo used, and the rules for spell enhanced ammo specify that the magic enhancement is cast on ammo created by the spell:

    When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell.

    Any non-magical ammo taken out of a container with AA on it should be replaced with similar non-magical ammo - take a masterwork arrow out and it is replaced with a masterwork arrow, take a silver arrow out and it is replaced with silver arrow, take an infused arrow out and it is replaced with an infused arrow. If the replacement arrows created by the spell were different than the ones used then the spell would specify that.

    As for why all archers don't take it, it takes rounds of preparation and costs money, an archer without concern for prep time and money can use a scroll of greater magic item written by a level 8 wizard to put +1 bane on their arrows which adds +3 to hit (although each does .5 points of damage less than the Artokus's fire/acid infused arrows) which lasts for 8 hours and affects more arrows than the infusion. Dedicated archers who don't mind spending money and can take several preparation rounds before combat have better options.

    LuniasM wrote:

    Also, don't expect your DM to allow the Abundant Ammunition thing to work - the spell targets a container and only copies spell effects targeting the container. It should not clone non-magical enhancements affecting the ammunition, such as the Alchemical Weapon bonus. Otherwise you'd see a lot more archers dipping a couple levels for the 3d6 bonus damage per hit (artokus's fire + acid via a hybridization funnel and a wand of AA makes a 50gp consumable that requires only 1 round of buffing for 9+ rounds of death).

    AA replaces non-magical ammo in a container on a per round basis. A purpose built archer is likely firing a least 4 arrows a round at 6 BAB. Using 4 arrows per round requires infusing 4 arrows before casting AA on the quiver for every arrow to get the +3d6, or the equivalent of a 465 GP consumable (4 x Artokus's fire @ 100 GP, 4 x acid flask @ 10 GP, 1 x scroll of AA @ 25 GP). And this would take 4 rounds of buffing to pull off, so that the first infusion would off after 6 rounds of combat.

    An archer looking to maximize DPR regardless of cost in buffing rounds could find 2 levels of grenadier a worthwhile dip but it isn't all that easy for archers to make work. It works fine however for keeping the grenadier infusion ability worth something after the first few levels.

    If planning to use some sort of steam tech then a charging time is certainly appropriate, and even without steam tech it might take a character a few rounds to adjust to the suit.

    Instead of charges per day mechanism consider making it so that the suit requires maintenance/replacement of parts/replenishment of fuel which is taken care of when the player is in a reasonably technological location. Have the player keep track of how many times they take certain actions and assess a GP cost for the maintenance. Feel free to have the suit break down if the player seems to be deliberately avoiding maintenance.

    nothing is said about the alchemical concoction having to be in a hand either, so presumably it could be in your backpack at home. the only time it came up the consensus was that the act of infusing including drawing the alchemical mixture from a ready bandolier. in actual use the grenadiers (?was there more than one?) I've played with have gone the pre-buff/buff round route with abundant ammo which negates the action economy problems - a scroll of AA costs 25g and the cheapest alchemical concoction for viable infusing (acid) is 10G.

    all the monster codex entry means is that writers felt that there should be a place to find archetype other than the PFS Society Field Manual. There is nothing in the monster codex entry listing it as a hobgoblin only archetype.

    I'd like to say "yes" and the answer was "yes", but I am unaware of an official ruling on grenadiers getting an INT bonus when using splash weapons which don't splash because they are infused into a weapon or piece of ammo.

    Unless the orc toddlers were committing evil acts, then the killing of them for coming from an evil race (even if no other alignment is possible for orcs) is an evil act. Babies and toddlers cannot be evil in PF terms, they lack the capacity to make moral decisions and are thus considered neutral ("Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral.") This doesn't mean killing them is necessarily an evil act (killing them because they come from an evil race is) but the reason has to be closer to "even though the orc toddlers are not evil, they present too much of a threat to others to be left alive." Keep in mind that the PF/D&D morality system is intentionalist not consequentialist, so why an action is taken is what is important, not the results of the action.

    goldomark wrote:
    -A death cult actually manage to briefly summon a vestige of Atropus Harbinger of Death, siphoning the live force of everyone in the city in seconds.

    completely forgot that one, time to dust it off and throw it in somewhere.

    The savage technologist might make this work better, unless you are planning to make use of crowd control or skills while raging. I dislike giving up the will bonus, and the savage technologist keeps it. Just because you can use firearms there is no reason you have to.

    516.Fun With Alchemy Using Common Household Ingredients: no author. this awkwardly sized 11&3/4" by 12&1/3" volume comes with a hard(ish) cover made of laminated paper which is delaminating, the pages were probably bound with the disintegrating glue of which remnants are found on the edges of some pages, and the printing was done in an ink which ran and makes it hard to read. The text purports to contain directions for simple experiments like model volcanoes. The book does provide some amusement in imagining what household would consider the white from a medium sized roc egg, the drool from the middle mouth of a 3-headed dog, the shadow cast by bat during a gibbous moon, the leaves from an ancient mandrake plant or similar to be common ingredients as these are to found in every formula. Attempting to follow the directions for any of the experiments results in an unhealthy looking thick brownish liquid which:

  • 1) permanently gives any surface coated with it a tacky & greasy feeling which does nothing except make those who touch the object think it would be a good idea to wash
  • 2) makes anyone who drinks it feel queasy, which can be quite a novel experience for goblins or otyugh, but has no other effect
  • 3) never becomes solid no matter what is done too it
  • 4) if ignited will produce a thick smoke which causes -2 to all rolls for the next 24 hours made by the person who ignites it, no matter how far away from the liquid they are when they ignite it as long as they are on the same plane.

  • While I could second the note which says "I prepared explosive runes today" a level 3 druid casting fire trap is cheaper, albeit the spell does only 1d4+3 damage versus the 6d6 of explosive runes. You could also use the trap rules to create a trap, but a trap would likely be more expensive than fire trap/explosive runes/symbol of death spells (well not symbol of death).

    Devilkiller wrote:

    I can understand people’s arguments that misfires can be a problem at lower levels. I don’t like accepting that the wheels must fall off of game balance at higher levels though, especially since 13th level is one I’d expect to see in every AP. Even if there are a million ways to break the game I think that trying to fix as many as possible seems like a better approach than just letting everything slide.

    Anyhow, I feel like there’s a problem with guns and perhaps touch attacks in general, especially at higher levels as touch AC fails to increase on pace with other defenses. I think the Gunslinger class gets “singled out” since:
    A - Gunslingers almost always use guns, so the intersection between Gunslingers and gun use is very strong (unlike say Fighters or Paladins even if they might be able to inflict a lot of gun based DPR too)
    B - Guns include a lot of drawbacks such as misfires and slow reloading, but Gunslingers can overcome many of those restrictions (especially when using certain archetypes)

    @wraithstrike - The OP’s complaints about a PC from actual play (and mine for that matter) involve double barreled guns. They also both involve the Pistolero. I’d expect that using those and a little effort you could boost the DPR significantly.

    @ElementalXX - I don’t like to compare stuff which works against all foes to Paladins since Smite Evil only works against Evil foes. DMs can and often will make enemies Neutral, and even APs run straight from the book sometimes have a lot of non-Evil foes. I also happen to think Litany of Righteousness might better be called Litany of Ridiculousness since it seems crazy powerful to me. Obviously I'm more impressed by DPR than some folks, but flat out doubling damage seems nuts.

    The wheels don't have to fall off at high levels, it is merely that there are many ways to make the wheels fall off. Even then there are usually ways to shut down one player who has created a super build, my favorite with gunslingers is to place an opponent with reach and combat reflexes right next to them - make a choice, move and make one attack or stand and eat a face full of AoOs. And it is easy for GM to make it very hard a gunslinger to get close enough to make touch attacks - with a distance enchant, using a deed AND a feat a pistolero only has a 60' range for touch attacks with a double pistol.

    As I've written before, I'm not so sure that using double firearms with the damage bonus to both attacks is the intent of the rules, or that the rules are being interpreted correctly. The rules really are not clear, and if a GM feels that using double firearms that way is causing problems there are ways of reading the rules which cut the damage output of double firearms (only one double attack per attack or full attack action or something like the 3.5 volley rule).

    the problem with alchemists is the limited number of bombs, after which they have no attacks a commoner doesn't have. Not that alchemists are useless, but they would best function in special units which don't see constant combat.

    With the concepts given I see two dominant forms developing:

    1) Dragoons (infantry who ride/fly into battle) and fight with firearms would most likely be fighters or rangers - the early feats make them more effective at the 2-5 level range and not having to spend feats to fight from a mount makes them even deadlier. With combat cabale mounts, the dragoons could land and form a ground line and then unleash their mounts to drive opponents into the dragoon line.

    2)Wand using ranged cavalry. Effective ranged weapons fighting from a mount takes a lot of feats, but anyone who can use a wand can be an effective mounted ranged fighter.

    3) (not so effective and probably rare and not dominant) cavalier heavy cavalry which charges in with lances.

    archer/crossbowmen rangers to fire from a range beyond that of musketeers, alchemists using bombs for raiding groups which don't need sustained firepower, arcane wand users (bard/magus/summoner).

    Given the prices of firearms in PF, the only military units to receive them would be for intimidation purposes. Did I miss a new feat which lets "any martial class can get itself Dex to damage with firearms"? Otherwise we are looking at level 3 trench-fighter, level 5 gunslinger, level 5 savage technologist and such for that ability.

    wraithstrike wrote:
    I would personally suggest acid or electricity to avoid coming up against some monster that is immune or highly resistant to the elemental damage.

    to handle resistant beasties scrolls of greater magic weapon written by a level 8 wizard (600GP each) should do the trick, cast on ammo to create +1 acid or +1 electric bullets as needed.

    immune beasties that is, resistant beasties just get hit with dead shot.

    with 15,ooo GP left I'd upgrade the belt to +4 dexterity, giving +1 to hit & +1 to damage and making the left over cash 3,ooo GP.

    There is nothing in the description of the throwing shield which indicates it makes an attack as a free action, only that it can be thrown (non-attack) as a free action. Since a blink-back belt only recovers the weapon once an attack is resolved and there is no attack from a free action throw the throwing shield just sits where you throw it.

    The phraseology of the description is surely only to ensure that GMs don't insert a requirement to take an action to unclasp or re-wield a throwing shield used for an attack. A rule has to be interpreted with the developers' intent in mind. When the developers' intent is unclear there are problems, but unless the devs intended to create an item which would allow any character to make a number of attacks in round limited only by their carrying capacity (and not even by that once the blink back belt was introduced) the intent was not to allow free action attacks with a throwing shield.

    wraithstrike wrote:
    I have not tried to crate any throwing builds yet, but I am curious as to how they will do.

    Poorly. I've tried everything possible with a throwing build and the best I can come up with is some that don't suck. the big problem with throwing builds is that either they use a ton of weapons (the returning weapon quality happens at the end of the round, so a returning weapon can only be used once a round) or the blinkback belt (which takes up the belt slot) or they use shiruken which are inferior to using a composite bow. There are a few odd builds which can be superior in the short term (a Vishkanya bard using abundant ammunition on shiruken to make multiple sleep poison attacks was quite successful at being most useful character in one group for several levels) but in the long run throwing weapons is at best a gimmick. A bomb throwing focused alchemist is technically a throwing build, and quite powerful but still not going to top the DPR Olympics.

    Lune wrote:

    All of what you say is correct. anyone talking about singling out the Gunslingers? Perhaps I missed it.

    Well since the original post was about gunslingers being overpowered, then yes, the original poster (moreso Judokai) is singling out gunslingers.

    The only objection I had with your post was that you too easily dismiss misfires, which do cut down the power of gunslingers. Misfires are a significant issue for gunslingers (especially double barreled gunslingers) until such levels that the are power builds with teleporting fighters, TWF lance wielding barbarians riding giant bats, druids changing into humongous rhinoceri & summoners with armies.

    Lune wrote:
    There is also the mitigating factor of misfires, but that can be circumvented. I think that when it is circumvented that it makes Gunslingers close to the same power as Zen Archers ... which, I believe the boards agree are OP.

    It really is not all that easy to circumvent misfires, greater reliable is a +3 enchant so you're looking at level 11 or 12 before it is affordable while the two major archetypes can avoid misfires at level 13, oh and the slate spider is only 10,000gp and thus available much earlier but a double barreled firearm might need two of them and that's one combat per day. At level 11 a (pick 3/4ths or full BAB class) 8/Horizon Walker 3 can Dimensional Savant themselves across a ravine, make a full attack with flanking (for sneak attacks) on all but the first attack, and Dimensional Savant back across the ravine to be safe from counter-attack - and let's not talk about the rage pounce lance barbarian. Once the game gets to the point where misfires are not an issue the game has gotten to the point where there are so many ways to make overpowered characters that singling out the gunslinger is absurd.

    wraithstrike wrote:
    If the rule was not changed then it seems to be the same rule to me. I don't think the 3.5 volley rule exist as a general rule in Pathfinder at all. That is why manyshot specifically says only 1 arrow can crit. If there was a general rule that would not have to be called out.

    1)IDK if the rule was changed, if someone still has a copy of the UCombat round 2 playtest rules and can look up to see if the description of double barreled pistols is the same as the released version or not the applicability of the dev post from the playtest can be determined.

    2) there is no 3.5 volley rule in PF. If there was a volley rule then how to resolve 1 attack with 2 attack rolls (to hit rolls) would be clear, apply bonus damage once to the total. Gun training/deadly aim/sneak attack damage/whatever provide bonuses to damage rolls. So what is a damage roll with a double barreled weapon, one roll with a dX for each hit, or is each dX a separate damage roll? If the 3.5 volley rule is applied to double barreled firearms then most of this mucking about over double barreled firearms being overpowered would disappear.

    BTW there is a dev post from the playtest which specified that double barreled pistols could fire both barrels as a single attack, but it is a playtest post and not necessarily applicable to the rules as released.

    A larger part of the problem with double barreled firearms is how to apply bonus damage. No where is it specified whether a double firearm uses the 3.5 volley rule procedure or not. If the 3.5 volley rule is used then two hits from a medium double barreled pistol do (1d8 + 1d8) + damage bonus, while if the volley rule isn't used then two hits from a medium double barreled pistol do (1d8 + damage bonus) + (1d8 + damage bonus), a big difference when a gunslinger has a damage bonus of +20.

    Here is a framework that can explain Slayers as a separate class.

    Slayers don't learn how to be slayers, slayers are created (born?) and then learn skills which help them to kill things.

    Most sentient beings find violence a distasteful and unpleasant necessity (yes most members of even the goblinoid species feel this way) and after a period in the army or militia or street gang can leave it behind happily to take up farming, tailoring or some other peaceful profession. However there is a certain percentage of sentients who, when forged on the fires of violence, discover in themselves something which needs the violence to satisfy them. Some crave the feeling which comes from a lack of constraint in battle and feed that rage to become barbarians. Some enjoy the adrenalin rush that comes when life and death are inches apart and take up the craft of the fighter. And then there are those others, those who are addicted to the feeling which comes from extinguishing life, the feeling of power which comes from knowing that every living thing you see only continues to live because they have not chosen to end it yet, the slayers.

    For the assassin life is trivial and providing death is merely a task they are willing take on for money. For the ranger life is important and killing is an unpleasant necessity which sometimes has to done. For the slayer life is the most important thing and killing is pleasure undertaken for it's own sake.

    Malwing wrote:

    Sorry if this is a derail but just how powerful is a dual-wielding Gunslinger?

    Between ammo costs, misfire and needing to get into charging range to pull it off going nova with multiple pistols always seemed like a bad idea to me. Being within 30 ft is kind of a biggie for me. I can't trust ranged tactics that bring me that close to the action, I've seen it go badly too often.

    I ask because I rarely see a Gunslinger in play and when I do it's always a rifle build. The one dual pistol build I've seen didn't fare too well

    The TWF pistolero with double pistols is potentially very powerful, but the build is not reliable. Prior to level 13 (and no misfires) a few bad rolls moves the character from DPSer to deadweight. After level 13 if the character is in the right spot at the right time they are phenomenal (but at that level so are most martials which are in the right spot at the right time) and otherwise they are good but not great DPS. From a GM standpoint the TWF pistolero can be a problem because if everything comes up right for the character then they can blow through a very tough encounter, but that type of luck is about a 1-in-50 chance.

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    (heh, was writing this post before your last but went to bed instead of posting it)

    I recommend banning the TWF double pistol pstolero or stating at the beginning of the campaign that such a character may have to be retconned at higher levels( 13+) because of GM necessity. From an actual DPR standpoint gunslingers (even the much maligned TWF double pistol pistolero) are not OPed, however when the positioning is just right, the sun is entering the House of War and the dice gods smile upon the gunslinger; when that happens a gunslinger's damage in one particular encounter can trivialize the toughest encounter. The thing to remember with gunslingers is that while they can do high damage, and occasionally amazing damage, it is unreliable damage (less reliable the wild surge sorcerer of old).

    When GMing gunslingers, the class really only shines in gold rich, magic-mart style campaigns. A gunslinger is pretty much shooting gold at their enemies and gunslingers can easily find themselves spending more on ammo for a fight than they get in loot. While a great axe oriented barbarian can easily make effective use of a found +1 flaming halberd to overcome DR, a gunslinger doesn't have that same ease of using found gear - a gunslinger pretty much needs the gear she needs and has difficulty making use of anything else.

    Mark Hoover wrote:
    blackbloodtroll wrote:
    Are actually having problems making touch attacks?
    I am, but it mainly has to do with some profane enchantment called a "Restraining Order".

    Well played, sir, well played.

    If you have access to the exotic sling ammunition from Halflings of Golarion go with the stonebow, otherwise the light crossbow has a bit of an edge with fire and acid bolts.

    Unless you are planing to dump strength, in which case the light crossbow is the choice because you will have problems carrying the ammo to feed the stonebow.

    ElementalXX wrote:
    you cant reload with a tail, most problems of teh gunslinger come from poor knowledge of the basic mechanics of the gunslinger
    You don't reload with the tail, the tail holds one of your pistols so that you have two hands free to reload with. The details depend on the specifics of your tail: example, a tiefling with prehensile tail, quick draw and grasping tail has a routine like this:
    • start with main-hand pistol in hand and off-hand empty
    • fire main-hand pistol, free action reloading with off-hand which is empty
    • free action drop main-hand pistol on the ground
    • free action draw off-hand pistol
    • attack with off-hand pistol, reloading with main-hand which is empty
    • swift action recover pistol from ground with tail, holding it in tail
    • ROUND 2
    • change handedness, so that the hand currently holding a pistol is your main-hand
    • make main-hand attacks, reloading with off-hand which is empty
    • free action drop main-hand pistol on the ground
    • free action switch grip on off-hand pistol so that it is no longer held in your tail but is in fact in your off-hand
    • make off-hand attacks, reloading with your main-hand which is empty
    • swift action recover pistol from ground with tail, holding it in tail
    • ROUND 3+
    • repeat round 2 sequence until combat is over

    While it is certainly possible to make wearable jewelry type cipher rings (send 10 boxtops to...), the one's in the ACG are more likely Alberti style cipher wheels, since no one thought of cipher rings until the 19th (maybe 20th even) century. That said there is nothing particularly difficult about making cipher rings and 60G for a pair should be fine - pay more if you want something fancy like having the letters engraved instead of painted.

    101 Uses For A Dead Gnome - this thin softbound book features 101 not-very-humorous uses for dead gnomes, such as draft excluder and footrest. It does, however, accompany each with an excellently done woodcut demonstrating the use and is often collected for the woodcuts, even by gnomes who find the text rather revolting.

    Elbedor wrote:

    For those of you with experience playing gunslingers, is 5 Grit enough to work with? Or should I aim for 6, 7, or even 8?

    I would want 1 in reserve to perform certain tasks and would spend the rest mostly for Quick Clear but also occasionally for Deadeye, Dead Shot, Targeting, and Ricochet Shot Deed.

    5 grit should be enough as long as your party does not deny you kill shots - gunslingers are easily able to finish off the weak, being ranged with multiple attacks.

    the weapon enchant you really need is distance.

    A level 8 gunslinger might be preferable to level 7, 8 gives a bonus feat and +1 to your strong saves - might be, not definite.

    Looking to add another class to your musket master, consider inquisitor. A wisdom based class with level 1 swift action spells which work fairly well for a gunslinger (litany of sloth can be a lifesaver). The combination of cunning initiative & gunslinger's initiative on a dexterity based character is not too be dismissed.

    ElementalXX wrote:

    1. It's Radney-MacFarland, not McFarland

    2. This is presumably the post you are referring to

    3. That post dates from the playtest of Ultimate Combat and doesn't give us an answer about where the balance wound up after testing.

    4. The answer Stephen Radney-MacFarland gave was that it is one attack with two attack rolls, with no indication of how many times precision damage is applied.

    ElementalXX wrote:
    Devilkiller wrote:
    The Gunslinger I've observed in play was a 15th level Pistolero who jumped into a campaign fully formed as a replacement PC for one who died, so she never suffered from a misfire chance. Initially the player was also adding precision damage to both shots in a volley and using weapon cords to reload both guns (since the nerf hadn't been issued yet)
    A high level gunslinger not suffering from misfire is as outrageus as a high level barbarian not suffering from fatigue (or hits). Precision damage does apply to both attacks, there is no such a thing as a volley for a gunslinger. The cords were nerfed indeed to probably his chars dpr may be cut by half unless he had taken 3 levels of alchemist or trouth the use of a feat(dont remember the exact name now, something like guns juggle)
    ugh. the wording of double barreled firearms is not consistent:
    • "This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack." same attack so precision damage added to an attack is only added once. of course gunslinger training type precision damage is added to damage rolls, not attacks, but sneak attack damage is added to attacks...
    • This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. same action but are they the same attack? can precision damage be added twice?
    • This twin-barreled shotgun can be shot either one barrel at a time, or both together as one attack. A double shot that fires bullets is inaccurate, and takes a –4 penalty on both attacks. A double shot that fires bullets targets only a single creature and increases the damage of each barrel to 2d6 points (Small) or 2d8 points (Medium) for a total of 4d6 or 4d8 points. so we have one attack which consists of both attacks (wtf?) and seemingly only one damage roll.

    We cannot divine the intent of the author of the rules from the simple language of the rules when the rules are such a mess. AFAIK there is no clarification from the game designers of whether firing both barrels of a double barreled firearm should be treated as two hit rolls with one damage roll or two separate hit and damage rolls. 3.5 had the volley rule which covered this type of double attack and only allowed precision damage to be added once, but PF doesn't have the volley rule. Either reading is consistent with the language from the description of double barreled firearms, but importing the volley rule from 3.5 keeps double barreled firearms from being overwhelmingly powerful so I recommend doing so while acknowledging that doing so might not the designers' intent.

    And yes, high level gunslingers (with the right archetype) not risking misfire is pretty strong, but it is far from the only problem high level characters have - for instance a level 17 barbarian gains tireless rage and doesn't suffer from fatigue anymore.

    Devilkiller wrote:
    At high levels Gunslingers get some abilities to avoid or suppress misfires. If a PC were using Quick Draw to cycle through multiple guns in the off hand for TWF I'd expect those guns to be either non-magical or of fairly low enchantment levels. Obviously this would be less problematic than the twin +5 double barreled pistols I saw in play before the weapon cord nerf, especially if the Gunslinger in question failed to pick up Clustered Shots.

    At level 5+ a mysterious stranger archetype gunslinger can ignore misfires CHR/day while at level 13 Musket Master and Pistolero archetype gunslingers only gain the "never misfire" ability with their respective weapon specialties. A level 11 gunslinger gains the deed expert loading which costs grit and prevents a broken firearm which misfires from exploding, however it still misfires, remains broken and the chance of misfire increases. Dwarven gunslingers have a FCB to decrease misfire chance and is thus the default race for organically grown (not created with levels) double barreled firearms using gunslingers. Other than that the ways to avoid/suppress misfires are magic like the reliability enchantment or the glorious slate spider (no misfires for only 10,000 GP, once per day for one minute, a double barreled firearm seems to need two of them - buy one for your favorite gunslinger because they darn well cannot afford to buy them for themselves).

    but even if the gunslinger has a 21,050GP reliable +1 flaming musket, the weapon will misfire on a 1-3 when using alchemical cartridges, and that doesn't really fit the concept of "[t]he goblin has several double-barreled guns." not that the calculation is wrong (although misfires should be factored in) but the means is wrong - the goblin would be better off to carry several non-magic double firearms, when one misfires drop it and grab another to avoid weapon explosions, while loading +1 flaming bullets (only 166GP a shot). expensive but doable if the cash is available.

    DarkPhoenixx wrote:
    Let me guess - Pistolero with Up Close and Deadly as Signature Deed?

    signature deed requires 12 levels of gunslinger, so very unlikely at level 11.

    And a non-dwarven gunslinger using double pistols and alchemical cartridges should have big problems with misfires until level 13 (and then only if a pistolero or musket master). Don't ignore that each misfire increases the chance of misfire of later shots by +2 cumulative until the weapon can be repaired. Using alchemical cartridges a double barreled pistol will misfire on 1-3, a double barreled musket will misfire on a 1-4, and it goes up with each misfire - by the end of 3 rounds of combat the gunslinger should misfiring about half of their shots. The increased misfire rate can be bypassed by using magic ammo and carrying a boatload of firearms while not reusing them, but at 1,750 or 2,500 gold a pop for base weapons this is a pretty expensive proposition.

    shroudb wrote:

    ehhh how many free actions per turn would you need to fire 8 shots like this?

    if they are a lot i foresee a great deal of table variation

    10 free actions: make all attacks with main hand pistol using free action reloading, free action holster main hand pistol, free action draw off-hand pistol, make all attacks with off-hand pistol using free action reloading. 10 free actions might seem like a lot but is the same as a level 16+ ninja using flurry of stars and probably some other cases. Heck, a hastened archer (not zen or other archetype or prestige class, just a vanilla full BAB archer) at level 16+ using the bog standard multi-shot and rapid shot feats takes 7 free actions a round to work.

    Serisan wrote:
    What happened to the Weapon Cord cheese?

    recovering a weapon with a weapon cord has been changed to a move action.

    you miss out on gunsmithing, deeds except quick clear and signature deed by going trenchfighter though, not to mention the gunslinger advantages to initiative and AC which a build as DEX heavy as the TWF pistol wielder really does make use of.

    taking the gun twirling human gunslinger (pistolero) build isn't much worse:

    lvl 1: rapid reload
    lvl 1: rapid shot
    lvl 3: weapon fous
    lvl 4: dazzling display
    lvl 5: quick draw
    lvl 7: gun twirling
    lvl 8: TWF
    lvl 9: ITWF
    lvl 11: GTWF
    lvl 12: Signature deed (up close and personal)

    you lose PBS, precise shot, Imp. precise shot and fighter weapon training at level 12 so have a greater miss chance but get a significant boost to damage (3d6 -1 per hit) and even cause 3d6/2 damage on misses. No armor training for trenchfighter so the gunslinger would have +3 AC dodge bonus and + 2 initiative bonus.

    Not a bad build but I think the gun twirling pistolero build has an edge since the thing a gunslinger can most afford to sacrifice is hit chance.

    ---- edit----
    didn't notice deadly aim, the pistolero build at 12 with DA factored in gets 3d6 -9 damage on a hit relative to the trenchfighter. Of course the pistolero can pick up deadly aim at level 13 and improve damage while the trenchfighter can never get signature deed.

    Inquisitors are not just about the heretics, they are about all enemies of the faith both internal and external, and they are big on potential threats too. Once you realize that threats from outside the faith are part of the inquisitor's job it is hard not be able to find a way to justify adventuring inquisitors.

    DESNA: travelers, anything which molests travelers is a potential threat to the faithful of Desna. night stalkers, Desna's faith teaches the night should be a time of wonder not fear, anything which hunts in the night is fair game for an inquistor of Desna. Lamashtu attacked and killed Desna mentor god, even without Desna having sworn vengance on Lamashtu, this is a threat which any inquisitor of Desna (or just about any god other than Lamashtu) cannot ignore and even the slightest hint of Lamashtu's involvement is worthy of being investigated. The Gossamer King sends out disguised clerics to small communities to infiltrate and corrupt them to Ghalunder worship, some inquisitors of Desna make a point to check on small communities for these infestations before they can take root. Gamblers, Varasians, musicians, and even thieves - many of them are worshipers of Desna and an inquisitor could find herself investigating a too efficient thief-taker as a threat to the faith.


    The majority of those who follow Cayden Cailean are simple people who seek simple pleasures in life. Those who brew and sell alcoholic drink often revere the Drunken Hero, as do those who partake of such fare. Adventurers seeking to promote goodness often find a sense of kinship with the deity, their goals of freedom and adventure mirroring those of the god of bravery.

    Well since nothing ever presents a threat to the faithful of Cayden Cailean, inquisitors of this faith might have problems. I suppose the GM could create some completely fantastical story about orcs attacking an inn to get an inquisitor of CC involved. /sarcasm

    From a mechanical standpoint a fighter can come into their own as martial feat focused characters at lower level than other classes (although many can be met by a Ranger almost as fast). The whip/trip extended reach build is still so feat heavy that fighter is the only class which can realistically use it, and the sword&board TWFing style is best handled by a fighter (although, again, rangers are not an inferior choice if you don't need the AC of the fighter build).

    For rogues I got nothing.

    Not that I could play one, but the most effective build I can think of that meets the reqs would be a monk 1/synthesist summoner. Make the monk a martial artist if lawful alignment is a deal breaker because the only reason to pick it up is for the WIS to AC. Use a big-arse sword in the hands with eidolon claws on the legs and maybe some extra-biting heads at higher levels. Synthesists can dump physical stats and still concentrate on WIS for AC, INT for spells while having a decent CHR. With 18 WIS a biped eidolon based monk/synthesist taking imp. natural armor and ability increase (dexterity) evolutions when available can keep AC at respectable levels: 26 at level 6 (10 + 4 base + 4 nat armor +2 shield bonus +3 DEX +4 WIS), 35 at level 11 (10 + 8 base + 6 nat armor +2 shield +5 DEX +4 WIS), 44 at level 16 (10 + 12 base + 8 nat armor + 4 shield + 6 DEX +4 WIS). Of course if you consider wearing an eidolon to not fit the naked requirement this fails the reqs.

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