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cnetarian's page

1,345 posts (1,362 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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The normal 'dip' is five levels of gunslinger for DEX to damage, which even a warpriest would find useful. If not using advanced firearms (revolver is advanced) then amateur gunslinger is pretty essential for non-gunslingers, need the quick clear deed. If using 2H firearms then there is no sure way around 3 levels of Musket Master and using a musket to get free action reloading, a GM ruling could permit free action reloading of an advanced 2H firearms either through rapid reload or metal alchemical cartridges (the rules for reloading advanced firearms are incomplete and the rapid reload feat actually slows down the reload speed of advanced firearms).

My halfling barbarian used to dress up in a wizard's robe over her armor and even carried a spell pouch. She provided quite the surprise for anyone who thought she was easy pickings in melee combat. She started with it because she dyed her skin blue and everyone mistook her for a gnome, and since even halfling barbarians know that gnomes are all magic users she just went with it, but it is perfectly viable to present to the world as a class you are not.

Nagaji doesn't work because they cannot qualify for racial heritage (a human feat) to qualify for scaled discipline (a kobold feat). Unless scaled discipline has made it into some new book, this isn't PFS legal as nothing in Kobolds of Golarion is PFS legal.

The easiest fix if you want to change the firearms rules is not to ditch touch AC entirely but to only allow it at short range. Early firearms with touch AC at 1 range increment and range increments of 20'/40' work fairly well to give you a concept of what ranges might work. "Reward" the player with touch AC attacks when he gets into the right position and "punish" him with normal AC attacks when he is too far from the front line.

Move a creature with reach and combat reflexes next to his character - he can either eat an AoO for each attack he makes and every time he reloads or he can take a move action to move more than a 5' step and not take a full attack action. Air elemental is my first choice.

Terrain & spells like wall of ice can also shut down ranged characters (like the gunslinger) pretty easily if they don't stick with the party. For that matter an occasional ambush on isolated party members (like the lone gunman) by a second group of baddies is not an unfair thing if the party often gets split up in combat.

non-existent. there may be some cants different groups come up with for situations where silent communication is necessary, but there should be no actual language. there is just too much magic to have a significant deaf population when one can buy a 3rd level cure blindness/deafness scroll(375gp) or hire a cleric (150gp). throw in a world where spells like telepathic bond and detect thoughts exist and there is no need for a full sign language to be created, most mutes will just use the written language and spells/scrolls/magic items when writing won't work.

Only if your opponent has the teleport tactician feat.

Tarondor wrote:
So assuming I'm not doing 5 levels of gunslinger but that I am doing some, am I better off as Pistolero 2/inquisitor X or as Musket-Master 3/Inquisitor X?

If those two are your only choices go MM3/InqX.

If you can, going vanilla gunslinger1/InqX who uses a pistol would be better. deadeye is a better deed than up-close-and-deadly.

Vanilla Gunslinger beats the pistolero for dabblers in firearms, it isn't until the pistolero has some levels in the archetype that it takes off in daamge dealing. There isn't enough advantage in taking 2 levels of pistolero (vanilla) to make it worth delaying inquisitor abilities coming online.

you mean "reloading as a free action", using an alchemical cartridge you can reload a musket as a move action at level 1 when you get rapid reload (muskets).

reloading as a free action is important when the number of attacks per round exceeds 1, because otherwise you cannot make more than 1 attack per round. Most characters which use guns try to get this as soon as possible by using rapid shot, but since bane is arguably a better choice than a second musket attack, the gunfighter/inquisitor can go musket master for one level then inquisitor for five levels then musket master for two more levels hitting +6/+1 BAB as a MM3/inquisitor5.

I think the extra attack of rapid shot is worth more than bane. An extra musket attack does 1d12 + static bonuses for -2 to hit while bane is just +2d6 to damage and +2 hit and hit bonuses aren't as important for gunslingers as other classes. Further if you go MM3 then Inquisitor with rapid shot you will have BAB +6/+1 at level 7 and be making 3 attacks per round because gunslinger is a full BAB class while inquisitor is a 3/4th BAB class.


All that said, you're probably better off going vanilla gunslinger 1/inquisitor X if your character is intending to be a firearm using inquisitor. There is no real advantage to going pistolero 2 instead of gunslinger 1, nimble is nice but not worth delaying and weakening just judgement, and the up close and deadly deed is going to be less useful than the deadeye deed.


Also if you are doing Iron Gods/Reign of Winter with their firearms which don't need to be reloaded every shot and longer ranges then the necessity of free action reload becomes less important.

Bah, someone spends years in a lab drinking whatever strange chemical cocktail they created at 4AM after being up for 6 days and people have to expect that it might have the odd side-effect like the rubbery bones. If people thing the occasional tentacle growing out of someone's forehead is "creepy" then I shudder to imagine what they think of an alchemist who grows claws and fangs while suppressing their intelligence. Just because an alchemist spends his time talking to alternate personae is no reason to call him "creepy". An alchemist is just another character trying to survive as a murderhobo, if you cut him does he not bleed (warning the blood of some alchemists has been known to induce nausea)?

meh, wall of force scroll for 1,125gp around the vamp to keep him from escaping topped off with a few sunburst scrolls. Admittedly they're 3,000 gp each and off the druid list, but someone should have a decent enough UMD to have good chance to roll a DC 35 check, and if they fail just use another scroll (there's also dust of emulation). 3 should be enough. If you're using a patron's resources there is little reason not to bring out the big guns.

If high level scrolls are off the table, use a scroll of resilient sphere(level 4 wizard spell, is he more than 7' tall?) to contain the vampire for 7 minutes. During those 7 minutes you can use the scrolls of gaseous form and trace and such to prepare to follow the vamp to his coffin, being ready to go when the wall of ice wears off and perhaps crush some garlic to give you one round of free action while he recoils from the garlic. If you're like me however, you use those 7 minutes to use a scroll of stoneshape (level 4 wizard spell) to enclose the vamp in a resilient sphere in an outer airtight stone sphere. 2 hours latter when the vamp cannot return to his coffin he is dead instead of undead.

Realistically longsword is off the table until level 5 so you have some time to figure it out, you could decide at level 3 by taking weapon focus then or can put it off and taking weapon focus & slashing grace at the same time at level 5. IIRC the increased crit chance of a 1d4/18-20X2 results in a greater average damage in the long run than 1d6/19-20X2 but I might be wrong as it is a long time since I've actually checked the math. Regardless of which weapon does more damage on average in the long run, I favor the increased critical chance with magni because it seems to increase the effective damage more (although this might just be an observer effect due to criticals with a spell doing outrageous damage).

Hmm, if magic item crafting is on the table then the obvious choice is a singing sword because they are so cheap to create.

A temple sword with bells would seem probably be a good base, if your GM will let you consider it to be a musical instrument. The Hurrican quarterstaff is designed to whistle when swung and should be able to qualify for musical instrument status.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

For the first, I do mean heavy crude, that sinks in seawater after the lighter stuff has evaporated (probably somewhat similar composition to the bitumen you are thinking of).

For cooking oil, I have never seen cooking oil (or solid grease) that failed to float on water, as long as it wasn't stuck to whatever surface was under the water.

But I accept that if you have trouble convincing yourself that vegetables are food, we might be thinking of different things, and might even have mutually alien metabolisms . . . .

It's a definitional thing, once crude oil gets to the same density as water (actually little higher) it ceases to be heavy crude oil and becomes bitumen. As for the milk thing, it was a too subtle (judeo-christian) biblical joke, sometime maybe 5,000 to 6,000 years ago a religious injunction forbidding cooking an animal in it's mother's milk came into effect, which I spun into the "modern fashion" of using oils for cooking instead of milk.

The best way to up damage as a musket master is to fire more, and that means staying a musket master. At level 3 you should take the rapid shot feat, which combines with rapid reload (muskets), fast musket deed, & alchemical cartridges to fire twice per round - this will result in a much greater increase in damage than any class will give you. At level 5 you get DEX to damage on each hit, which also should be a bigger damage boost than 2 levels in any class can give you.

The decent set of early feats for a musket master is:

lvl 1: rapid reload(musket) free for being musket master, point blank shot
lvl 3: rapid shot
lvl 4: deadly aim
lvl 5: precise shot

After level 5 the musket master can do well by changing class, but the musket master still has a few 'tricks' to increase damage. Musket training increases damage by +1 every 4 levels and then there are deeds. The level 7 deed 'dead shot' is not to be overlooked against creatures with DR or which are really hard to hit, and at level 11 a MM can combine signature deed with the bleeding wound deed to add DEX bleed damage to every attack. Admittedly these are nothing compared to the pistolero who can take signature deed with up close and deadly, but they have to be factored into the value of taking a new class. Personally I find 'dead shot' too valuable to ignore and would never switch class until level 7, but others might not find that to be true. When taking another class consider the effects of the BAB on the number of attacks made, a musket master 5/fighter 6 gets 4 attacks/round while a musket master 5/rogue 6 only gets 3 attacks/round which can result in less damage per round.

WRT to the DR 10 golems, a musket master is one of the few able to do any damage with a ranged weapon at level 1.

If you think the DM is going to keep tossing high DR encounters your way then you can invest some gold in special materials for bullets (adamantine should have worked against the iron golems), I recommend combining them with level 1 scrolls of abundant ammunition. You ought to buy some special materials to make into bullets anyway (make them with gunsmithing, do not buy them premade - 61G for an adamantine bullet is just too expensive), but usually it is something which isn't needed for the first few levels.

Silent Saturn wrote:
cnetarian wrote:
Don't be silly, heavy crude is lighter than water, are you thinking of the extra heavy sludge (bitumen) which comes from coal sands, because that isn't really crude oil. I use the oil that is so good it is sinful, I use milk of the animal as my cooking oil - cow milk for beef usually. As for French fries, I gave up long pig as it has too many chemicals in it. Unless you are talking about french fries made from plants dug out of the ground, which might be interesting if I could find a potato oil to cook them in and were wiling to accept that vegetables actually are food.

So when you say "cooking oil", you're talking about milk? Because I just checked, and my dice sink in milk also.

I actually asked my roommate (a materials engineer) about it when salt water failed for me, and when I suggested milk, he said that milk is the same density as water-- the minerals and substances dissolved in it that make it milk are of equivalent density as the water itself (which is why it doesn't separate in the jug).

Heavy cream, on the other hand...?

Milk's (specific gravity @1.03( a hair denser than water (specif gravity 1), skim milk (SG @1.07) is denser too but salt water (SG @1.03 sea water but can be as high as SG = 1.20 at saturation) is considerable denser. --edit-- heavy cream(SG@.98) is actually less dense than water.

If you have saturated salt water (somewhere between 1/3rd & 1/4th salt) you can pump the density up to about SG1.28 by dissolving sugar into the salt water until the sugar saturates the solution (you can dissolve more sugar than salt, but it increases the density less). That's about the limit of kitchen physics. From what I remember of my *cough*cough* year old physics, dish soap varies in density by brand, but because of the way it plays games with surface tension dish soap can float heavier objects than saturated salt water, however don't mix soap and water (the soap dissolves in the water and plays a whole different set of tricks with surface tension).

UnArcaneElection wrote:
cnetarian wrote:

{. . .}

on a more serious note, better to change to a denser fluid than changing the salt in the salt water. if you feel like going all out, switch to glycerin (cheaper than caesium chloride too) but cooking oil or liquid soap should do the trick for most dice and does not require a trip anywhere but the grocer.

completely forgot that what most people use as cooking oil these days is less dense than water. why people would want to cook perfectly good food in light oils is beyond me, but it is the fashion.

Wait, you cook in heavy crude or halogenated hydrocarbons? I'm not eating your french fries . . .

Don't be silly, heavy crude is lighter than water, are you thinking of the extra heavy sludge (bitumen) which comes from coal sands, because that isn't really crude oil. I use the oil that is so good it is sinful, I use milk of the animal as my cooking oil - cow milk for beef usually. As for French fries, I gave up long pig as it has too many chemicals in it. Unless you are talking about french fries made from plants dug out of the ground, which might be interesting if I could find a potato oil to cook them in and were wiling to accept that vegetables actually are food.

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Lakesidefantasy wrote:

There was an experiment done a few years back where d20s were rolled 10,000 times and the results recorded. The experiment was to compare the randomness of Chessex dice against GameScience dice. It was demonstrated that the GameScience die rolled more true than the Chessex die.

However it has been pointed out that a typical d20 is more egg shaped than round, with the flattened axis being aligned through the 1 and the 20. If you look at the bar graph of the Chessex die in the link above you will see that the numbers that came up less often were the 1, the 20, and the six other numbers that share a side with them (2,7,8,13,14,19). The numbers that came up more often were those along the "equator".

Because of this shape it makes sense that the 1 and 20 would come up more often in the saltwater test, but I would expect the same thing to happen when they are rolled, contrary to what the data show.

The saltwater test will not detect a die which is 'out-of-true' shapewise, only one which has poorly distributed weight. The saltwater test demonstrates the heaviest side 'sinking' to the bottom resulting in the rotating die stopping with it's lightest face (or vertex if the weight is really off) on the top. If the weight in the die is evenly distributed then the shape of the die is irrelevant in the saltwater test and the die won't roll to any favored side.

Just because a die passes the saltwater test doesn't mean it is fair. Also one shouldn't expect too much of a die in the saltwater test, what one should really look for is how long it takes to come to rest after being spun than what number it comes to rest on, the faster a die comes to a stop the more unequally the weight is distributed.

How long does it really take to memorize spells? 1 hour for everything, and 15 minutes for 1/4th. If the party can give the wizard just 15 minutes with his book, then he can replenish 1/4th of his spell slots, so he can still replenish a goodly amount of power fairly rapidly (provided he had 8 hours of rest).

Also I have no idea how the unchained summoner plays but the original was far too good to be used for anything but an NPC boss. Ran a few of them and they tended to dominate with an eidolon able to match or surpass martials at fighting with the summoner able to do most of the battlefield controlling while also acting as party face.

EpicFail wrote:

Part of summoning optimization involves meta preparation like color-coded dice, note cards or other retrievable hard copy* data, and approaching your turn with a militantly mindful desire to be as quick as possible. I've seen this issue both ways, and it's not pretty when the unprepared or even partially prepared wallow through their turn at the table.

That said, I'm in the dark on Unchained Summoner. Is there a link to it somewhere??

*One had better be an absolute wizard if one fumbles thru their tablet or smart phone for the info on their critters. I've only seen this done badly and it's painful.

The SRD site has the rules for the class.

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Wait, so you throw your dice in the water, and if the water accepts them and they sink then they are safe, while if the water rejects them and they float then they are cursed? I'm sure I've heard of this trick before.

on a more serious note, better to change to a denser fluid than changing the salt in the salt water. if you feel like going all out, switch to glycerin (cheaper than caesium chloride too) but cooking oil or liquid soap should do the trick for most dice and does not require a trip anywhere but the grocer.

completely forgot that what most people use as cooking oil these days is less dense than water. why people would want to cook perfectly good food in light oils is beyond me, but it is the fashion.

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Wizards are kept impotent by use some magical item,probably a special collar. This would also work with spontaneous casters, so any PF prison would probably have developed such a device.

Despite the fact that wizards (and magni) in the prison are unable to cast spells, over the years the prison underground have developed a small library of magical 'spellbooks'. Most prepared casters use these spellbooks regularly because otherwise when released they would have lost the mental discipline necessary for spell casting and have to relearn it. The players have tapped into the prison underground and have access to a few spells, a poor selection true, but if the wizard and magnus can get their collars off they can cast spells.

I should mention that by giving the wizard a weird selection of spells to memorize you get to see how creative the wizard is without his/her usual selection of spells.

Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.


Weapon Finesse (Combat)

You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.

Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

As long as the weapon fits the category "light or one-handed piercing melee weapons" (for swashbuckler's finesse) and is "a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain" (weapons usable with weapons finesse feat, and thus subject to the agile enchant) then a swashbuckler could gain the benefits of swashbuckler finesse and the agile enchant at the same time. Basically this limits the agile enchant using swashbuckler to rapiers (and light piercing weapons but a light weapon is usually a poor choice). As an alternative to the agile enchant there is the slashing grace feat

Slashing Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

A slashing grace swashbuckler can get the benefits of swashbuckler's finesse dexterity to hit and the agile enchant dexterity to damage with a one-handed slashing weapon (dwarven waraxe, klar, whip, scimitar, longsword and so on).

A dexterity based swashbuckler is certainly viable by taking the slashing grace feat, but if you want to use the iconic swashbuckler weapon, the rapier, then you have to get the agile enchant.

I'd advise against spending feats and/or arcana on something that can be replaced with a magic item (page of spell knowledge, ring of wizardry etc). Most magni can just use a scroll collection to expand the range of available spells enough to not even need to bother with pages of spell knowledge because even at level 12 there are only half-a-dozen spells which make up 99% of their casting.

---- end should be clarified to 'in combat casting when using a scroll is impractical.'

DM_Blake wrote:

This doesn't exactly work.

If I pick a corner, then pick a destination corner that happens to be in a perfectly straight line following the grid (no diagonals; my "line" follows perfectly down an existing grid line to the destination), then your rule that it doesn't count if it only touches an edge means that my line, which ONLY touches edges, is incapable of hurting anything, even if it passes directly between two adjacent targets.

That's not right.

Congratulations, you've just chosen to waste your attack. Since the caster (or dragon or whatever is making the line attack) gets to choose the starting and ending corners, if they wish to do damage they should not pick two corners which lie along the same line of the grid. The rules could include a clause to handle this situation, but as someone once said "if you make something idiot-proof they just make a bigger idiot."

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The best 'trick' I've found to maintain horror is difficult to describe how to do. The GM has to give the players the sense that there is something important he knows that the players don't. It starts with attitude, ignore any concept of the game being a cooperative endevor, the GM needs to think of himself as an impartial observer who is simply watching the players' fate unfold.

Random die rolls, a quick meaningless check of notes, taking one player aside all help during the game but can backfire if overused.

A technique that can help (not just with horror), although it might be tough to get right in a few days, is gradually dropping the volume of your voice. If you start talking in a normal tone and drop it just a hair every so often, the players start to lean in just to hear what you are saying and they assign more importance to it. If a player cannot hear or complains then go back to a normal voice, but if you can pull it off it works well at creating a low level of tension.

[humor] In a similar vein you could get a tape of noises in the 13-14 HZ range and let the traffic noises cover it, good old infrasoundt will keep the players on edge.[/humor]

From a mechanical standpoint the best option might be to start with 5 levels of samsaran witch using mystic past life to get dimension door from the summoner spell list as a level 3 spell (and thus qualifying for dimensional agility) if feat retraining is not allowed. Going that route I strongly recommended going into one of the arcane casting full BAB prestige classes (edritch knight is a good choice), at least until your spell casting covers more than 1 or 2 DDs per day.

FLite wrote:

Trekkie, I think you missed the point up above where Scott demoed a build with seven grabs in a full attack.

So round two looks like:

Claw Attack 1 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict + armor spike dmg (if successful)
Claw Attack 2 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict + armor spike dmg (if successful)
Kick Attack 1 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict + armor spike dmg (if successful)
Kick Attack 2 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict + armor spike dmg (if successful)
Bite Attack 1 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict + armor spike dmg (if successful)
White Hair Attack 1 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict + armor spike dmg (if successful)
Gore Attack 1 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict + armor spike dmg (if successful)

Or my eventual Protean Build:

AMF Cruel + Final Embrace Horror
Bite Attack 1 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict dmg + shaken (if successful)
Tail Slap Attack 1 dmg + sickened + grab (no dmg) + constrict dmg + frightened (if successful)
Tail Slap Attack 2 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict dmg + panicked (if successful)
Tail Slap Attack 3 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict dmg (if successful)
Tail Slap Attack 4 dmg + grab (no dmg) + constrict dmg (if successful)

You get them pinned. I make them drop everything they are holding and take no action and take -4 to saves.

That is why people are worried about this.

You should go up a level since most builds compare at level 10 or 20 instead of level 9.

FLite wrote:
do you mean the rounds of rage are useful or useless?

erg, insert 'not' before useless.

Gwen Smith wrote:

Since the grappled condition is a really effective debuff and since the creature can continue its full attack after the initial grab, I can't rationalize how a creature would ever figure out that "grab-release-attack/re-grab" could do more damage than "grab-attack with an advantage". Until I see just one example of an animal that evolved that strategy naturally and uses it in actual hunting, I won't use it. Whether it's operating as intended (different argument), the animal would have to somehow stumble onto an anti-intuitive strategy and then experimented to discover it was better. (Related note: Does anyone know the Int score required to have object permanence?)

Yes, animals will grab-release-grab when they are playing, but that's because play is practicing how to catch things: when they actually want to catch the thing, they don't randomly let go. (They also go out of their way not to kill the prey when they're playing, even giving it a head start before catching it again, but I don't see anyone suggesting that monsters adopt that strategy.)

Note that I have no problem with any creature that class levels using this strategy, because the levels represent training, which means practice, experimentation, and reviewing results across different techniques. Instinctual play does not have that level of abstraction.

Terriers (and many other dogs) use a grab-shake-release-grab-shake-release-grab... attack routine. When chasing prey a terrier is usually only going to be able to bite into a leg or the hindquarters, shaking can break a bone or at least disorient the prey, allowing the terrier to shift their grip and continue the routine until the terrier gets a grip which, when shaken, breaks the neck or spine.

kestral287 wrote:

Only if it's magical underwear. Mundane underwear has no problems.

Unless you're a Synthesist, then the eidolon takes up your underwear slot.

That's not quite correct.

Hmm, how to phrase this, umm, you'll never see a synthesist get out of their eidolon to use the bathroom.

Athaleon wrote:
Run away screaming in the other direction, and take the Gunslinger feat instead. Sword and Pistol is awful.

seconded. personally I like the barbarian savage technologist archetype for not provoking in melee, and a few rounds of rage with bonus DEX and will save is entirely useless even if a 2 level dip prevents it from being the always on in combat rage of a true barbarian.

FLite wrote:

For the sake of intellectual honesty, I did just work out a way for a 9th level eidolon to get 5 constricts. (or three rends for that matter.)

5 constricts requires a protean (Unchained) eidolon, which gets a free grab on it's tail slap, and a second free grab attached to whatever attack type you want (in this case it's free bite.)

Give it 3 more tails + tail slaps, and constrict. (8 out of it's available 7 points, unchained eidolons have a lot fewer evo points.) 4 grabs are going to be secondary, but at 9th level, it just got multistrike, so who cares.

3 rends, take any quadruped, give it 3 tentacles + grab + rend. 7 points. Doable even in unchained. Again, secondary vs primary, but it's only -2 to the attack.

So far that is the best legal 9th level build I can come up with (best as in most attacks.)

for the quad rend build using APG & UM you can go

bite free
3 x head 6 points
3 x bite 3 points
rend 2 points
grab (bite) 2 points

13 evo points

= 4 rends on bites

no secondary attacks, but they are all pretty weak.

Samasboy1 wrote:
FLite wrote:
Only works for APG eidolons. Unchained eidolons count manufactured weapons and iteratives toward their max attacks.

And Unchained Eidolon is an optional rule. The standard rule is that they don't count.

But we seem to be moving the goalposts here.

FLite and I were discussing the problem of game time. I was illustrating plenty of things cost equal amounts of time.

Now we are comparing builds only possible using extra evolution points from FCB.

I don't see any reason why the "free" bite would not count toward the Max Attack limit.

It was just an example build to see how to fit in a large eidolon, if the 'free' bite evolution doesn't have to be included in the maximum attacks there is no need for the FCB. It's one of those questions about eidolons that never got answered, while the 'free evolutions' cannot be traded do they have to be taken? I'm only taking grab twice to see what happens using the most adverse rulings of eidolon construction. If the bite has to be included against the maximum attacks, and grab can only be taken once, and the claws evolution has to take up 2 of the maximum attacks when taken; well then level 9 is the worst level for the rake build after level 4. Even using the most adverse rulings, it can still be done at level 9, even the large size, by using evolution surge and/or the extra evolution feat and/or the half-elf FCB.

Samasboy1 wrote:

A Bipedal Eidolon can't have Rake, period.

It requires a Quadruped base form.

And would only work on creatures Small or smaller.

You could consider that another cost for these builds based on Grab, you pretty much HAVE to buy size increases for them to work.

True, missed that in my like for the idea of the biped clawing it's way through people. The large evolution is only 4 points, not that hard to squeeze out with the extra evolution feat and/or the half-elf FCB, but it does double the cost of the increase ability (strength) evolution. SO let's try the large quadruped.

head 2 pts
bite 1pt
grab(bite) 2pts
rake 2pts
grab (claw) 2pts
claws (legs) 1pt
large 4 pts
energy attacks (acid) 2 pts

15 pts, which requires 8 half-elf FCBs or 2 extra evolution feat or 4 FCBS and 1 feat.

2 bite attacks +13 (1d8+1d6acid+8), 2 claw attacks (1d6+1d6acid+8)
each hit results in a grapple attempt at +15, each grapple success results in 2 rake attacks +13 (1d6+1d6acid+8). Can a level 9 fighter compete?

note that the head and bite were chosen just to avoid argument about the 'free evolution' bite attack of the quadruped. If the 'free' bite attack doesn't have to be counted against the maximum attacks of the eidolon then the head and bite can be replaced with arms and claws while grab (bite) can just be dropped.

oops the grapple attempts are at +19, forgot that grab adds +4

Samasboy1 wrote:
Heck, a Fighter with GTWF, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp could have 4 attacks from BAB, 3 from TWF, plus AoO's for tripping the opponent AND for the opponent falling prone. That's the potential for 21 attack rolls in a single round. Without Haste.

At level 9 a biped eidolon can have

claws (arms) free
claws (legs) 1pt
grab (claws) 2pt
rake 2pt

and have 8 evolution points left for
improved damage (claws)1pt,
improved natural armor 1 pt,
2 x ability increase (strength) 2 x 2 pts,
energy attacks (acid) 2 pts.

(If the summoner uses the half-elf FCB or takes the extra evolution feat then more evolutions can be taken.) This results in an eidolon which is making 4 claw attacks at +14 to hit which do (1d6+1d6acid+7)x2, each hit giving a free grapple at +14 to hit, each grapple giving 2x rake attacks at +14 to hit doing (1d6+1d6acid+7)x2, at level 9, with no magic items, no buffing spells, and no feats factored in. Can a level 9 fighter match that even with feats, magic items and spells buffing them? A pouncing quadruped should usually make a better choice but I like the biped. Constrict is a way to go, and in some ways superior, but the rake build is better able to take advantage of static bonuses to damage (energy damage, STR, AoMF, etc) while none of the attacks being iterative means the eidolon has a pretty high hit chance with it's rake attacks.

Right, I used claws as a quick stand in for actually building an eidolon. To spend a few minutes building eidolons for a level 9 summoner a build might look like:

seprentine base form


1x head = 2 points
1x bite = 1 points
grab (bite) = 2 points
limbs (arms) = 2 points
claws (arms) = 1 point
grab (claws) = 2 points
constrict = 2 points

12 evolution points.

attack sequence 2x bite (bite + grapple + constrict), 2x claw (claw + grapple + constrict) tail slap = 8 primary attacks + 1 secondary attack


quadraped base form


1 x head = 2 points
1 x bite = 1 point
1 x claws (front legs) = 1 point
grab (claws) = 2 points
grab (bite) = 2 points
rake = 2 points

10 evolution points

attack sequence 2x bite (bite + grapple + rake + rake) 2 x claws (claw + grapple + rake + rake) for 12 primary attacks.

The quadraped is superior (not just because of pounce and fewer evo points, it also has a higher base strength and speed) but both are making too many attacks for a level 9 pet.

other notes, constriction is a 2 point evolution & the 1 point claws evolution gives 2 attacks.

FLite wrote:

Well, there is a.) a minor diffence in scale, as you noted. (12 attacks vs 8) B. one is defined as a natural attack and counts against the creatures max attacks, while the other is a special attack.

Would you suggest that if an eidolon can only rake once a round, it can only use it's acid add on once per round?

"This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon's maximum." is not the same as saying it is one attack, in fact an eidolon rake is two attacks whenever triggered. If the evolution description said "each time the rake attacks are made, it is counted as one natural attack toward the eidolon's maximum" (the houserule we adopted) then it would be less powerful, but the description doesn't say that. Also, by RAW, a level 9 serpentine eidolon with the constrict evolution, 3 pairs of arms with claws, and the grab (claw) evolution would be able to make 10 attacks/round versus the 12 of the quadreped eidolon using grab & rake

FLite wrote:
cnetarian wrote:

Dunno if it was intended, but it is legal. Note that players can get the same attack sequence using the anaconda's coils belt slot item and a binding blade, which can make for impressive barbar damage.

Went through a worse situation with an eidolon using grab and rake [strike]abilities[/strike] evolutions which at level 9 had an unbuffed no feat attack routine of 4x(claw +14 (1d6+1d6acid+7), on hit grapple attempt +14, on successful grapple 2x(rake +14(1d6+1d6acid+7), release grapple). 12 non-iterative attacks/round is probably too many for a level 9 pet.

Okay, not sure this is legal. Consensus so far is that rake is a natural attack, and therefore can only be used once per round per the rules on natural attacks.

Please FAQ here so we can get an answer.

I don't believe a general rule about limbs being used for natural attacks once per round can overrule the specific rule that rake attacks happen whenever a grapple occurs. If a ruling is made that eidolon rake cannot be used twice in a round then same ruling should be written to prevent the grab-constrict-release-grab-constrict-release... routine, even though there is no 'limb' associated with the constrict attack.

I should mention that the situation was resolved at the table by invocation of Wheaton's rule (IMO an essential houserule). I think Wheaton's rule would also apply to most uses of the grab-constrict-release routine, but it isn't used at all tables.

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Dunno if it was intended, but it is legal. Note that players can get the same attack sequence using the anaconda's coils belt slot item and a binding blade, which can make for impressive barbar damage.

Went through a worse situation with an eidolon using grab and rake [strike]abilities[/strike] evolutions which at level 9 had an unbuffed no feat attack routine of 4x(claw +14 (1d6+1d6acid+7), on hit grapple attempt +14, on successful grapple 2x(rake +14(1d6+1d6acid+7), release grapple). 12 non-iterative attacks/round is probably too many for a level 9 pet.

have you looked at the word casting rules from Ultimate Magic?

Haven't played with the PF version of power word magic, but it looks like it would create versatile sorcerers.

78) I was told that chicks dig a man who is confident enough in his masculinity to wear a dress. Admittedly this is not true, but once you learn the dominate person spell, you can say goodbye to spending Saturday nights at home alone.

I think I used a few dragons back in early 3.X, but they just don't work anymore. Either the party stomps the dragon with the advantage of numbers or the dragon is effectively invulnerable to the party and completely destroys it. The PF system (post 2.0 AD&D it seems) doesn't work well with a party against a single opponent, it's much better suited for group versus group combats. I suppose a group of dragons could work, or a dragon with cohorts but neither of those fits my idea of a dragon so I just ignore dragons as opponents.

As a player there was a dragon back in 2012 or maybe 2011 or even 2010. Don't even remember the color, but the fight went something like this. Dragon went first and s/he MCed the ranger(?splatbook class?) archer (prolly the best best choice as that archer could do some hefty damage) on round 1 and in response the party petrified the ranger and took 75% of the dragon's HPs away with two spells Round 2 she used breath weapon for minimal damage and tried to fly away and in return my pally charge smote resulting in a dead dragon as well as a druid & a sorcerer upset they didn't get a chance to play with a dragon. Dragon just wasn't a challenge, s/he spent an entire round and sidelined one player from the combat and one from the round leaving half the party free to attack. The age of dragons ended with that battle I haven't seen one since.

As long as the natural attacks are different weapons they can be taken in any order. AFAIK the only way to get multiple attacks with the same natural weapon is with an eidolon, an eidolon above level 9 with less than 3 natural attacks gains a secondary natural attack with a natural weapon at -5, this would presumably follow the highest to lowest restriction of iterative attacks. If this eidolon rule is not in effect. natural attacks are made at full BAB (primary weapons) and BAB -5 (secondary weapons). Whether an attack is primary of secondary is not determined by the number of natural attacks made but by the natural weapon used. Bites & claws are usually primary natural weapons while wings & tails are usually secondary weapons, a creature with an attack routine of 3 primary bite attacks makes all of them at full BAB and a creature with an attack routine of 3 secondary tail slams makes all of it's attacks at BAB -5. A combat maneuver replacing a secondary attack would be at BAB -5, one replacing a primary attack would be at full BAB. The rules granting a character natural attacks should indicate whether the attacks are primary attacks (full BAB) or secondary attacks(BAB -5), AFAIK there is no rule granting a character a natural attack which doesn't specify whether it is primary or secondary.

Makeitstop wrote:

70. Because I can't stand the sight of blood, but I love the smell of barbecue.

Bravo, sir, well played.

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66. My father was a sorcerer, his father was a sorcerer, his father was a sorcerer and so for 65 generations. The family estates are mine if dear old dad doesn't disinherit me. My features bear a strong resemblance to those of the family gardener ... .

tough to beat the classics:

60. I wanted to travel to new lands, meet strange exotic people and turn them into cinders.

kestral287 wrote:

The next question.

Does not wearing underwear grant a bonus against Touch spells, or a penalty?

I dunno, but a bad touch cleric should get +4 to hit when not wearing underpants.

1) witch

2) if you're running out of spell slots you're not using enough scrolls. a scroll with dozen CL1 spells of identify will cost you 300g( half if you write it yourself), save incredible amounts of hassle, and justify your charging the other players for the spell if they insist on knowing now instead of when detect magic succeeds. a properly filled scroll box is a worthwhile tool for making a full caster a major factor in combat at the lower levels, even those who are not the sole caster in the party.

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