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You can argue there needs to be changes made but as long as Paizo continues to make money and be successful with their current strategies, that's not going to happen; Regardless of your opinion.
I'm sorry, but the tone of your post is very much "if you don't like how things are, shut up, because they aren't changing" and I just can't agree with that. Customers can and should offer feedback, whether you agree with that feedback or not. In the case of play tests, Paizo is explicitly asking for feedback.
I think you are mistaking fanbase with forum-base. The only people that talk about PF problems at PFS are forum goers IME. The folks that just show up to game are quite happy with PF and its direction.
Right up until they're not, and they just stop showing up. And no, many of those people don't come to the forums...they just go away. In fact, many people refuse to come to these forums because this isn't a friendly place if you're even perceived as being at all critical of Pathfinder. But that's another thread.
Its possible that you and yours are not, but I urge caution in trying to make a case for the majority. It might just be the case you and Paizo/PF are not a good fit. Though numbers wont lie despite making the same mistakes over and over, PF remains successful and popular.
Yes, Pathfinder is popular. So is McDonald's. Personally, I play Pathfinder in spite of the rules, not because of them. Neither of us has any idea how many others feel the same.
Southeast Jerome wrote:
It would also be easier to use at the table, which to me is a paramount concern.
...and with the PHB officially released yesterday, still no PDFs. In fact, they seem to be pretending PDFs don't exist.
Lame, lame, lame. This is a fear-driven decision that does nothing to reduce piracy while completely eliminating PDF revenue. Frankly, this is tone-deaf enough to make me re-think the entire edition.
13th Age in PDF? Check
And somehow I have still purchased EVERY SINGLE ONE (in both formats, for heaven's sake!)
Irrespective of whether such flaws exist, the Core Rulebook has presentation and organization issues that could be addressed without actually changing any rules.
Matthew Koelbl wrote:
Except we are explicitly talking about Wizards who do spend time training with weapons. That's the point of them being proficient! Whether they spent a feat on it, or have a racial benefit, the idea is that this isn't some random scholar who just picked up a sword, but someone who actually has spent time and effort learning to wield a blade. Why shouldn't they be perfectly capable of swinging the sword with skill, if they have the stats and proficiency to do so?
Because that's not how D20 games work? Seriously, it really isn't. The game is designed so that the majority of one's ability is defined by class; ergo, if you want to be good at fighting, pick a class that's good at fighting.
I'm not saying that's good or bad...it just is. Fighting the design of system seems like an unnecessary headache.
Since you asked: Pure, unadulterated bloat. There isn't a single archetype within that I couldn't already realize without the book. Worse, much of it is demonstrably more powerful than what came before. The Arcanist in particular seems obscene.
However, as a PFS GM, I am expected to have access to this resource. The fact that the PDF price is so reasonable makes that a lot easier to swallow.
Just so I don't sound like a total downer: I really liked the art in this book. The anti-paladin is priceless. :)
I hereby sick my RageHate ClawBeast of Rage on you. ;-)
Well the dinosaur names are back (i.e. Allosaurus, not Sharp-tooth meativore or whatever). So that is a good sign.
I do think WotC went a little overboard at times, but I never really understood the disdain that gets heaped on the use of "in-world" names, at least not for dinosaurs. After all, it seems unlikely anyone would refer to them by genus in a world largely devoid of the scientific method.
It's already its own thing, since APG. And there's nothing wrong with keeping a game for 3.5 players alive, forever.
The organization of the core rule book sucks. Sorry, but it does. It comes from essentially taking the 3.5 PHB and gluing the 3.5 DMG to the end of it.
In my opinion, Pathfinder needs to be completely re-written in the vein of the Beginner Box. Not with an eye toward simplicity, but with an eye toward clarity, consistency, and usability.
A reaction to another company's release(s) is not good business for said reactionary company. Paizo is doing fine the way they are. To be successful, Paizo should keep doing what they're doing and not be concerned with any other company.
On the other hand, being caught flat-footed because you ignored the competition isn't fantastic, either.
Wizards and Sorcerers no longer share a spell list -- the wizard list is larger. I'm assuming you know how prepared casters work from basic. Sorcerers still know a very limited number of spells, but can always cast any of them as long as they have the slots...basically, they're all always "prepared." This bit is pretty much unchanged from 3E.
Meta-magic is now solely the purview of the sorcerer. Rather than taking higher level spell slots, meta-magic is powered by a new resource: Sorcery Points. You basically get one sorcery point per sorcerer level (starting at 2nd), and use these to power meta-magic (among other things...like creating extra spell slots on the fly). Sorcerers are all about flexibility when it comes to magic...they can mess with spells in ways wizards cannot.
On one hand, I like that the wizard and sorcerer are more distinct. On the other hand, I still don't personally feel the need for two (or three if you count warlocks) full arcane casters. In fact, if they were going to bring over a class from the 4E PHB, I would have preferred Warlord to Warlock. Warlord healing would have fit in perfectly with 5E's hit point and healing paradigm.
I haven't had time to more than skim it, and there's quite a bit of material on enworld.org, but if you have specific questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
Many spells seemed to have been combined. For example, prismatic wall and sphere are now the same spell, you just choose the shape. It looks to be a strict super-set of basic -- nothing is more complicated, there are just many more options. Some chapters -- equipment -- appear to be identical, just with art.
Speaking of the art, it's pretty fantastic. It reminds me of the original 2E books w/ the full color plates; many non-battle scenes, just showing fantasy characters doing cool stuff. Also plenty of ethnic and gender diversity. I recognize some WAR and William O'Connor...overall a very diverse mix.
They may not put out all that much once the initial books are out.
I'm sure this will strike some people as crazy, but that would be fantastic. Contract out ongoing adventure production to people who specialize in adventures, keep the rules releases to an absolute minimum.
I can hope. ;-)
Of course, every new generation is lazy, selfish, and entitled according to the generation that preceded it. Society is always going to hell in a handbasket.
You know like you can't really point out anything specific about something that you don't like, but you end up really disliking the whole? That kind of feeling.
At the end of the day, preferences are feelings, and they don't have to be logical (not to imply that yours aren't). We like what we like. All too often I tend to forget that (my wife is convinced I'm half Vulcan).
For myself, I was drawn to Paizo during the Dungeon era because they were by far the best source of material for my ongoing campaign. The fact that the mechanics they used were all core was the ideal situation for me -- very little additional crunch (which I tend to dislike), but tons of first-class creativity. This situation persisted through the 3.5 adventure paths. Alas, nothing lasts forever. And in fairness to Paizo, I don't think that was a sustainable business model once 3.5 went out of print.
When 4E was released I embraced it wholeheartedly, only to watch WotC make a series of bad decisions that I believe ultimately doomed what I found to be a very promising set of rules.
As 5E approaches, I find I (again) like the rules, but revelations about organized play (you can't play the adventures at home, for example) have made it unlikely that I will be leaving PFS. PFS is by far and away the best-run OP campaign with which I've ever been involved (PFS>LG>LFR imho). So while I'm of mixed feelings about the Pathfinder RPG rules (I prefer something more rules-light, especially as I get older), I have other reasons to stick around.
My sincere hope (which is often enough to invite curses here :P) is a cleaned-up, simplified 2nd edition of Pathfinder in the next few years. I simply don't care about spending $50 or $100 for new rule books, because the time and effort saved are more than worth the expense (assuming improvement, of course). Something with the clarity, simplicity, and organization of the Beginner Box would be fantastic.
Scott Betts wrote:
So a business shouldn't have the ability to determine who gets to distribute their product? That's wrong, to you?
That's extremely disingenuous of you. There's a big difference between "decide who distributes their products" and "make unavailable something that has already been paid for."
Furthermore, this is precisely the sort of argumentation for which you're constantly taking others to task.
Overall, I think WotC made some legitimately bad choices during the 4E era. Personally, I liked the rules, but they made it increasingly difficult to support them as a company through what I believe were increasingly customer-hostile actions.
As for 5E -- Once again I like the rules, but I harbor some doubts about WotC. I do think it is worth noting that many of the people behind D&D have changed, and so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt by assuming they have learned their lesson. However, the silence on PDFs and the OGL do not bode well.
I'm buying the 5E core. Beyond that? Wait and see.
It like this was made for you.
When I first paged through 4e at the book store it looked to me like a video game rather than an RPG.
Completely agree. Except for the lack of a controller, display, and graphics of any kind, it was just like a video game!
Pardon the sarcasm, but this little bit of edition warring needs to be taken out behind the chemical shed.
So I ran my first session of 5E over the weekend. We began the Starter Set adventure using the basic rules.
The game moved along well. We spend a total of five hours, which included character generation and dinner. During the ~3.5 hours we actually spent playing, we got through five combats and wrapped up the first section of the adventure. It reminded me of "reset" 3rd edition with many of the corner-case rules removed. I particularly liked the "hybrid" prepared/spontaneous spell-casting model shared by the cleric and the wizard. Someone at the table described it as a "D&D greatest hits," which I think was very appropriate.
We tried going map-less for a combat, but it just didn't feel quite right. Then we tried a grid with minis, and while that was close, it felt a bit "fiddly" for the rules-moderate nature of the game. We decided next time we're going to use minis and maps, but without a grid, and just measure distance with string. That should offer a visually appealing tactical representation without the restrictive feel of a grid. Since the rules don't assume a grid, it seems like the best balance. It also seems appropriate given D&D's war-game roots.
One thing I noticed was the need to read and re-read the basic rules. With several iterations of D&D and Pathfinder rattling around in my head, it was really tough to keep everything straight.
Naturally the lack of customization in the Basic Rules was very confining, but the experience left me really wanting to see the Player's Handbook. I still fear WotC is going to make bone-headed mistake at the last minute, but I'm excited in spite of myself: 5E might end up being close to my "ideal" D&D. If so, it will become my "go-to" game for fantasy role-playing, but it seems highly likely that I'll be sticking with Pathfinder for organized play unless most of my friends switch (thanks, network effects!).
I've been offered copies of Paizo PDFs with the watermarks removed on multiple occasions. I didn't accept. Not because I'm incorruptible or righteous, but because Paizo PDFs are legally available for a fair price, and I want to support the people that make them so they'll keep making them. On the other hand, refusing to offer legal PDFs hurts only customers, as those willing to pirate are not stymied. I had simply hoped that the powers that be at WotC would have figured this out by now. Heck, I had hoped that they'd have figured it out years ago.
In any event, even if all discussion of piracy related matters is forbidden, care should be taken before accusing people of advocating piracy (which no no one in this thread has done).
In short, I don't take well to being accused of things I haven't done. :-/
Charlie D. wrote:
Yes, but...my point is that the decision on PDFs should have already been a firm "of course."
Chuck Wright wrote:
I was having an interesting discussion. You don't have to click on the link, my friend.
I didn't click on the link. What I did do was get a hostile PM from someone in this thread ("intelligence is obviously your dump stat").
OVER A FREAKING GAME.
So while I'm glad you find it interesting, I'm tired of the edition war bickering. I'll leave you guys to it.