paizo.com Favorited Posts by brassbaboonpaizo.com Favorited Posts by brassbaboon2016-01-10T22:45:10Z2016-01-10T22:45:10ZRe: Forums: Advice: Advice on players doing rolls that don't really effect anythingAdamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t6bw?Advice-on-players-doing-rolls-that-dont#152015-12-11T03:28:38Z2015-12-10T18:44:03Z<p>Renata, and that is a major reason I roll random dice. My players get used to me rolling dice, and eventually, after so many times that I roll the dice and nothing happens, it just becomes background to the game, so when a truly important roll happens, they don't notice.</p>Renata, and that is a major reason I roll random dice. My players get used to me rolling dice, and eventually, after so many times that I roll the dice and nothing happens, it just becomes background to the game, so when a truly important roll happens, they don't notice.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2015-12-10T18:44:03ZRe: Forums: Advice: Advice on players doing rolls that don't really effect anythingAdamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t6bw?Advice-on-players-doing-rolls-that-dont#92015-12-10T19:29:16Z2015-12-10T17:53:08Z<p>For things like sense motive and stuff, the player really shouldn't roll anyway, since if they roll a "1" they'll "know" they blew it. So what I do is I just randomly roll dice all throughout the session.</p>
<p>Then when something like this happens, I can just say "I rolled your sense motive and..."</p>
<p>It's also fun to just every now and then roll your d20 two or three times, raise your eyebrows and then roll a bunch of d6s.</p>For things like sense motive and stuff, the player really shouldn't roll anyway, since if they roll a "1" they'll "know" they blew it. So what I do is I just randomly roll dice all throughout the session.
Then when something like this happens, I can just say "I rolled your sense motive and..."
It's also fun to just every now and then roll your d20 two or three times, raise your eyebrows and then roll a bunch of d6s.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2015-12-10T17:53:08ZRe: Forums: Miniatures: Toys as MiniaturesAdamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s718?Toys-as-Miniatures#82015-06-02T01:24:47Z2015-04-25T01:53:14Z<p>Man, I've got so many toys I use in my games, it's silly. Here's an example of taking a toy and turning it into a Beholder:</p>
<p><a href="https://rpgobsessed.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/dollar-store-beholder/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Dollar Store Beholder</a></p>Man, I've got so many toys I use in my games, it's silly. Here's an example of taking a toy and turning it into a Beholder:
Dollar Store BeholderAdamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2015-04-25T01:53:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: New GM with a question..Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgkb?New-GM-with-a-question#82013-12-16T15:17:22Z2013-12-16T03:55:55Z<p>Asakura, I'm not attempting to rebut the advice you've been given about not starting with your own campaign world. It is a lot of work and if you don't have a ton of free time you will probably end up with some large gaps in your campaign.</p>
<p>But having said that, I was running my own campaigns in my own campaign world within a few weeks of being introduced to the game, and I'm still running campaigns in that same world today, using many of the same maps and content.</p>
<p>It can be done, it just requires a certain sort of compulsive dedication to doing it, and the time available to spend on it. I used to work as a night drive up teller and would draw maps and write up campaign notes as I was between customers.</p>Asakura, I'm not attempting to rebut the advice you've been given about not starting with your own campaign world. It is a lot of work and if you don't have a ton of free time you will probably end up with some large gaps in your campaign.
But having said that, I was running my own campaigns in my own campaign world within a few weeks of being introduced to the game, and I'm still running campaigns in that same world today, using many of the same maps and content.
It can be done, it just...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-16T03:55:55ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1422013-12-16T00:12:45Z2013-12-15T15:36:20Z<p>As I said Viv, when you are desperately searching for misogyny under every rock, you'll find it even where it doesn't exist.</p>
<p>As I also said, this sort of thing is a deadly insult, the sort of personal accusation that generally reflects more on the accuser than the accused.</p>
<p>I always try to be polite and rational in my discussions on these boards and try my best to keep things from being personal</p>
<p>But you are an unmitigated ass.</p>As I said Viv, when you are desperately searching for misogyny under every rock, you'll find it even where it doesn't exist.
As I also said, this sort of thing is a deadly insult, the sort of personal accusation that generally reflects more on the accuser than the accused.
I always try to be polite and rational in my discussions on these boards and try my best to keep things from being personal
But you are an unmitigated ass.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T15:36:20ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1352013-12-15T12:41:33Z2013-12-15T03:45:42Z<p>LOL Jaelithe, when you call "sentient irredeemable" an oxymoron, what am I supposed to conclude other than that you have an inability to imagine it? It's NOT an oxymoron to me because I CAN imagine it.</p>
<p>And the 8 years thing... LOL, I just said that it's fascinating to watch Vivianne, not that my analysis was clinical. I stand by that analysis anyway because I'm not delving into motivations or morality, I'm just pointing out what is being done right there in public.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that it is you and Vivianne who are passing judgment on people for playing a game where you fight sentient irredeemable monsters, because you simply can't accept that sentient irredeemable monsters can exist <i>anywhere</i>. You've both said it enough times that I hardly think calling that an inability to imagine is an indefensible position.</p>
<p>But it's time to let this rest.</p>LOL Jaelithe, when you call "sentient irredeemable" an oxymoron, what am I supposed to conclude other than that you have an inability to imagine it? It's NOT an oxymoron to me because I CAN imagine it.
And the 8 years thing... LOL, I just said that it's fascinating to watch Vivianne, not that my analysis was clinical. I stand by that analysis anyway because I'm not delving into motivations or morality, I'm just pointing out what is being done right there in public.
The bottom line is that...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T03:45:42ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1292013-12-15T11:32:24Z2013-12-15T02:21:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Vivianne Laflamme wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Adamantine Dragon wrote:</div><blockquote>What you are asserting is that YOU are the judge of what IS valid. </blockquote><p>Yes, I do believe that the things I believe are valid. If I didn't believe they are valid, I wouldn't believe them...
<p>Are you upset that I think the judgements I make are valid? Why wouldn't I think that? </blockquote><p>It's your naked willingness to shout your beliefs from the mountaintop and accuse those who run afoul of your prejudices and biases of horrible crimes that is the problem Vivianne.
<p>Go ahead and believe what you want. But it would be nice if you didn't let that lead to you publicly calling people names and questioning their moral character.</p>
<p>Believe me, I have lots of biases and prejudices that I could turn into accusations and zealotry if I wanted to myself.</p>
<p>The difference between us isn't that I don't have those biases and prejudices, it's that I don't let them overrule my common sense and humility.</p>Vivianne Laflamme wrote:Adamantine Dragon wrote:What you are asserting is that YOU are the judge of what IS valid.
Yes, I do believe that the things I believe are valid. If I didn't believe they are valid, I wouldn't believe them... Are you upset that I think the judgements I make are valid? Why wouldn't I think that? It's your naked willingness to shout your beliefs from the mountaintop and accuse those who run afoul of your prejudices and biases of horrible crimes that is the problem...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T02:21:18ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The propriety of PC vs. PC: Never, *without* exception?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgf4?The-propriety-of-PC-vs-PC-Never-without#232013-12-15T02:54:26Z2013-12-15T02:18:21Z<p>I used to play in a group where the player who played the party battle cleric liked to assert that his character was the most powerful character in the party. We had some good-natured discussions about whether his cleric or my druid would win in a PvP duel.</p>
<p>Neither of our characters would ever do PvP, so we just sort of kept ribbing each other about it.</p>
<p>Until the GM handed me a note out of the blue that said "You believe your allies are your enemies".</p>
<p>After the dust had been settled, half the party was dead, the battle cleric and the party rogue together, between them, managed to finally subdue my druid.</p>
<p>So there are ways to do "PvP" without true conflict in the party.</p>
<p>My druid would have wiped out the entire party too, if that dang cleric hadn't rolled a lucky save on a very high fort DC...</p>I used to play in a group where the player who played the party battle cleric liked to assert that his character was the most powerful character in the party. We had some good-natured discussions about whether his cleric or my druid would win in a PvP duel.
Neither of our characters would ever do PvP, so we just sort of kept ribbing each other about it.
Until the GM handed me a note out of the blue that said "You believe your allies are your enemies".
After the dust had been settled, half...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T02:18:21ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1272013-12-15T02:26:15Z2013-12-15T02:10:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Vivianne Laflamme wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Adamantine Dragon wrote:</div><blockquote>Vivianne, reading your posts is a fascinating exercise in practical psychoanalysis.</blockquote><p>What happened to spending 8 years in school, with years of clinical study?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Adamantine Dragon wrote:</div><blockquote>You continue to assert that your interpretation of things is the only valid one, and that you are the only one who can judge the morals of the people you view.</blockquote>I've not asserted that. I've asserted that <i>some</i> perspectives are invalid, but that's different from saying <i>all</i> perspectives but mine are invalid. ∃x φ(x) is not the same as ∀x φ(x). </blockquote><p>You don't even know what you are asserting.
<p>What you are asserting is that YOU are the judge of what IS valid.</p>Vivianne Laflamme wrote:Adamantine Dragon wrote:Vivianne, reading your posts is a fascinating exercise in practical psychoanalysis.
What happened to spending 8 years in school, with years of clinical study? Adamantine Dragon wrote:You continue to assert that your interpretation of things is the only valid one, and that you are the only one who can judge the morals of the people you view.
I've not asserted that. I've asserted that some perspectives are invalid, but that's different from...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T02:10:54ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1252013-12-15T11:31:38Z2013-12-15T02:09:07Z<p>Jaelithe, your inability to imagine "sentient irredeemable" monsters is not my problem.</p>
<p>Your insistence (and Vivianne's) that since YOU can't do it, it can't be done, is my problem.</p>
<p>Imaginary worlds can be whatever the imaginer wants them to be. Even if that means things are possible there, that aren't possible HERE.</p>
<p>Like, magic.</p>Jaelithe, your inability to imagine "sentient irredeemable" monsters is not my problem.
Your insistence (and Vivianne's) that since YOU can't do it, it can't be done, is my problem.
Imaginary worlds can be whatever the imaginer wants them to be. Even if that means things are possible there, that aren't possible HERE.
Like, magic.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T02:09:07ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1202013-12-15T11:29:34Z2013-12-15T01:58:14Z<p>Vivianne, reading your posts is a fascinating exercise in practical psychoanalysis.</p>
<p>The assumptions you make. The motivations you accuse. The grand sweeping generalizations you apply. All in the service of biases and prejudices that you wear on your sleeve like a neon tattoo... It's really stunning sometimes.</p>
<p>You continue to assert that your interpretation of things is the only valid one, and that you are the only one who can judge the morals of the people you view.</p>
<p>I've said it before, but it is a quite stunning performance of self-actualized judgment of others based on a remarkably narrow and focused world view.</p>
<p>Nobody has said that they want to build worlds where horrible actions are "the virtuous choice".</p>
<p>The ONLY thing anyone has said here is that it is possible to imagine and therefore play in a world where there are sentient irredeemable monsters, and that doing so allows players to engage in combat simulations without getting tied up in moral knots.</p>
<p>Everything else you have asserted is some sort of weird compulsive perception that you insist on applying on other people based on your own biases and prejudices.</p>
<p>"Hey, I know, let's play a game where we get to be heroes who protect the world from rampaging goblins!"</p>
<p>"You genocidal bastards!"</p>
<p>It's absolutely fascinating to see.</p>Vivianne, reading your posts is a fascinating exercise in practical psychoanalysis.
The assumptions you make. The motivations you accuse. The grand sweeping generalizations you apply. All in the service of biases and prejudices that you wear on your sleeve like a neon tattoo... It's really stunning sometimes.
You continue to assert that your interpretation of things is the only valid one, and that you are the only one who can judge the morals of the people you view.
I've said it before,...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T01:58:14ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1092013-12-15T11:25:43Z2013-12-15T01:06:53Z<p>Oh, and I do think your example is probably pretty common in the overall community Vivianne, so yeah, I think it's a pretty poor idea to make judgments of people's moral character based on their current role playing situation. For anyone. It is simply too easy to let our own biases and prejudices get in the way of our objectivity. As has been demonstrated here I think.</p>Oh, and I do think your example is probably pretty common in the overall community Vivianne, so yeah, I think it's a pretty poor idea to make judgments of people's moral character based on their current role playing situation. For anyone. It is simply too easy to let our own biases and prejudices get in the way of our objectivity. As has been demonstrated here I think.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T01:06:53ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1042013-12-15T11:24:21Z2013-12-15T00:55:07Z<p>Vivienne, I'm saying that you have demonstrated poor judgment in judging the motivations of people ON THESE BOARDS, so stating that you are able to read the secret motivations of your fellow gamers is something that I feel is worth challenging.</p>Vivienne, I'm saying that you have demonstrated poor judgment in judging the motivations of people ON THESE BOARDS, so stating that you are able to read the secret motivations of your fellow gamers is something that I feel is worth challenging.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T00:55:07ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=3?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1022013-12-15T11:23:48Z2013-12-15T00:50:56Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jaelithe wrote:</div><blockquote> I didn't think she was addressing anyone directly, but instead speaking in general—that though some behaviors are innoucuous, others are, indeed, indicators of our essential selves. </blockquote><p>And people spend 8 years in school, with years of clinical study to be able to make a wild guess at which is which in pathologically disturbed people.
<p>To think a typical gamer is able to discern motivations of other gamers is, well, a pretty monstrous conceit.</p>Jaelithe wrote:I didn't think she was addressing anyone directly, but instead speaking in general—that though some behaviors are innoucuous, others are, indeed, indicators of our essential selves.
And people spend 8 years in school, with years of clinical study to be able to make a wild guess at which is which in pathologically disturbed people. To think a typical gamer is able to discern motivations of other gamers is, well, a pretty monstrous conceit.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T00:50:56ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=2?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#1002013-12-15T13:37:48Z2013-12-15T00:44:23Z<p>Quite judgmental. It sets you up to be judge and jury of people based on your own prejudices and biases. Based on an innocent statement I made about women and children being flagged as 'misogynistic' I'm pretty sure your reaction to other things is just as questionable and will result in other accusations against other innocents.</p>
<p>But hey, it makes you feel superior, and that's what counts.</p>Quite judgmental. It sets you up to be judge and jury of people based on your own prejudices and biases. Based on an innocent statement I made about women and children being flagged as 'misogynistic' I'm pretty sure your reaction to other things is just as questionable and will result in other accusations against other innocents.
But hey, it makes you feel superior, and that's what counts.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-15T00:44:23ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The propriety of PC vs. PC: Never, *without* exception?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgf4?The-propriety-of-PC-vs-PC-Never-without#152013-12-15T02:53:47Z2013-12-14T23:49:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jaelithe wrote:</div><blockquote> Would you petition the DM for permission for (further) player vs. player if such occurred, AD? </blockquote><p>It would be a character based decision. I haven't actually even played a rogue in Pathfinder, all of my rogues were played back in 3.5 and earlier versions. If it was one of my truly evil rogues who had a chip on their shoulder, ESPECIALLY when it comes to magic users, then yeah, I'd probably petition the GM to allow my rogue to teach the witch a lesson. Maybe a permanent lesson. It would depend on how embarrassing the situation was when the rogue was hexed.Jaelithe wrote:Would you petition the DM for permission for (further) player vs. player if such occurred, AD?
It would be a character based decision. I haven't actually even played a rogue in Pathfinder, all of my rogues were played back in 3.5 and earlier versions. If it was one of my truly evil rogues who had a chip on their shoulder, ESPECIALLY when it comes to magic users, then yeah, I'd probably petition the GM to allow my rogue to teach the witch a lesson. Maybe a permanent lesson. It...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T23:49:33ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The propriety of PC vs. PC: Never, *without* exception?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgf4?The-propriety-of-PC-vs-PC-Never-without#132013-12-15T02:53:32Z2013-12-14T23:03:32Z<p>Ellis, I'd say that for quite a few of my rogues, if you fired off a "sleep hex" because my rogue was "shooting his mouth off" you might find that you have just encountered a pretty significant risk of death.</p>Ellis, I'd say that for quite a few of my rogues, if you fired off a "sleep hex" because my rogue was "shooting his mouth off" you might find that you have just encountered a pretty significant risk of death.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T23:03:32ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The propriety of PC vs. PC: Never, *without* exception?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgf4?The-propriety-of-PC-vs-PC-Never-without#102013-12-17T04:09:17Z2013-12-14T20:33:43Z<p>It has been my experience so far that the desire to PvP is generally expressed much more strongly by one player at the table than the rest. That alone is a potential problem.</p>
<p>If everyone at the table wants to do it and can deal with the consequences, then fine. It just has rarely, rarely been my experience that everyone at the table wants to do it and can deal with the consequences.</p>It has been my experience so far that the desire to PvP is generally expressed much more strongly by one player at the table than the rest. That alone is a potential problem.
If everyone at the table wants to do it and can deal with the consequences, then fine. It just has rarely, rarely been my experience that everyone at the table wants to do it and can deal with the consequences.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T20:33:43ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=2?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#832013-12-14T18:20:42Z2013-12-14T18:15:53Z<p>In my world probably the closest thing to a truly irredeemable sentient species is my version of the ilithids. They eat living sentient brains to survive. I've never yet put a baby ilithid in my game, but if I did and a PC killed it, I wouldn't turn that into an alignment threatening activity. Killing something that has to eat living sentient brains to live seems to me to be a pretty defensible action.</p>In my world probably the closest thing to a truly irredeemable sentient species is my version of the ilithids. They eat living sentient brains to survive. I've never yet put a baby ilithid in my game, but if I did and a PC killed it, I wouldn't turn that into an alignment threatening activity. Killing something that has to eat living sentient brains to live seems to me to be a pretty defensible action.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T18:15:53ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The propriety of PC vs. PC: Never, *without* exception?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgf4?The-propriety-of-PC-vs-PC-Never-without#32015-05-07T19:26:15Z2013-12-14T17:31:47Z<p>I rather intensely dislike PvP situations. The number of times it has happened and not devolved into personal disputes in real life have been so few as to be not worth discussing. Even when the players pretend to be OK with it at the table, I almost always start getting offline messages about how the game isn't fun anymore from one or the other, if not both.</p>
<p>So I discourage it very strongly in my games.</p>I rather intensely dislike PvP situations. The number of times it has happened and not devolved into personal disputes in real life have been so few as to be not worth discussing. Even when the players pretend to be OK with it at the table, I almost always start getting offline messages about how the game isn't fun anymore from one or the other, if not both.
So I discourage it very strongly in my games.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T17:31:47ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=2?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#652013-12-15T13:38:52Z2013-12-14T17:24:11Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Vivianne Laflamme wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Adamantine Dragon wrote:</div><blockquote>Is it OK then to have orcs or goblins be "unrepentant, irredeemable monsters" because then you don't have to deal with the repugnant idea of cutting down cute little green babies? </blockquote>In that case, replace "killing babies" in my comment above with "genocide". If you set out to make a game world where genocide is the morally correct decision, then, yes, that does reflect upon you. </blockquote><p>Ah, so now you come right out and say it. So don't pretend anymore that you aren't judging people who play differently Viv, you just judged them all as morally bankrupt.
<p>Just my own personal opinion, but if someone wants to run a game where the players can confidently expect that every monster they run into is a legitimate target just because that group enjoys the concept of battle tactics, I'm not going to call them morally bankrupt because they just don't want to turn this game into a morality simulation. They just want to have some fun killing monsters.</p>Vivianne Laflamme wrote:Adamantine Dragon wrote:Is it OK then to have orcs or goblins be "unrepentant, irredeemable monsters" because then you don't have to deal with the repugnant idea of cutting down cute little green babies?
In that case, replace "killing babies" in my comment above with "genocide". If you set out to make a game world where genocide is the morally correct decision, then, yes, that does reflect upon you. Ah, so now you come right out and say it. So don't pretend anymore...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T17:24:11ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Killing NPC's and monsters in games… Is it considered murder?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py9d&page=2?Killing-NPCs-and-monsters-in-games-Is-it#532013-12-15T13:39:07Z2013-12-14T16:43:37Z<p>It is clear to me that many people simply cannot accept or understand the notion of "unrepentant, irredeemable monsters."</p>
<p>Because the first thing that people say is "well, if you raise the babies right, you can redeem them. So killing them is murder."</p>
<p>This is a definitional problem. The DEFINITION in play is that the babies are irredeemable.</p>
<p>When you argue that those irredeemable babies can be redeemed, you are arguing that the concept of "unrepentant, irredeemable monster" is impossible.</p>
<p>It is not impossible. It is a game design decision. If someone wants to create a world with monsters who cannot be redeemed, then that's their prerogative. To then say, "well, it's still murder because there is some possibility that SOME of those monsters could be redeemed" is to essentially say "I know how your world works better than you do."</p>
<p>However, it is clear that the folks who have not understood this concept until now are not likely to do so in the future, so I'll just hope that the majority of lurkers reading this understand the concept of "unrepentant, irredeemable monsters" and recognize that if someone wants to run their world that way, well, it's their world.</p>
<p>And yes, it is also fine to create a world and define certain races that way JUST TO ALLOW players to have targets they can kill without remorse or moral quandary. Because it's a GAME that is fundamentally designed to allow just that.</p>It is clear to me that many people simply cannot accept or understand the notion of "unrepentant, irredeemable monsters."
Because the first thing that people say is "well, if you raise the babies right, you can redeem them. So killing them is murder."
This is a definitional problem. The DEFINITION in play is that the babies are irredeemable.
When you argue that those irredeemable babies can be redeemed, you are arguing that the concept of "unrepentant, irredeemable monster" is impossible.
...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T16:43:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Profession (Murderhobo)Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfre&page=6?Profession#2812013-12-14T01:38:36Z2013-12-14T01:20:48Z<p>Finlanderboy,</p>
<p>So now your argument is that people shouldn't do what you don't like because if they do, then they are controlling you.</p>
<p>Love that. That's just as good as the first one.</p>
<p>The reality is that the solution to this is that people should apply simple common sense and decency.</p>
<p>If someone playing a gunslinger bothers you, but gunslingers are allowed by the rules and are approved by the GM, then yeah, you should probably find another table because it would be a tremendous imposition on the player in question, the GM and the rest of the table to remove the gunslinger and create another character from scratch.</p>
<p>If someone objects to using the world "murderhobo" on a character sheet, all it takes is an eraser and a new word to resolve the situation amicably.</p>
<p>It's a cost/benefit ratio thing. The cost is low, the benefit is high, and the group overall benefits.</p>
<p>Again, sure, you don't have to do it. You can be the guy the rest of the table looks at and says "Seriously? That's his line in the sand? The right to use 'murderhobo' at the table? Okey-dokey..."</p>Finlanderboy,
So now your argument is that people shouldn't do what you don't like because if they do, then they are controlling you.
Love that. That's just as good as the first one.
The reality is that the solution to this is that people should apply simple common sense and decency.
If someone playing a gunslinger bothers you, but gunslingers are allowed by the rules and are approved by the GM, then yeah, you should probably find another table because it would be a tremendous imposition...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T01:20:48ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Another one bites the dust...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qbuk?Another-one-bites-the-dust#482013-12-18T21:11:41Z2013-12-14T00:54:10Z<p>Jason, as a GM who runs campaigns exclusively in my own custom campaign world, let me respond.</p>
<p>1. If a player doesn't want to play in my world, that's fine. I don't want to run a published module, so it works out for both of us. They can find another game with another GM, and I might even join them.</p>
<p>2. So far I've never had a single player in over three decades say "nah, I don't want to play in your campaigns anymore." Quite the reverse in fact.</p>
<p>3. When you say "everyone thinks their homebrew world is better than it is" do you recognize that you are making not only a blanket generalization, but that it is an insulting and condescending one to boot?</p>
<p>4. You constantly refer to the homebrew issue of "pet NPCs." I am assuming you mean NPCs that overshadow the party and steal their spotlight, not NPCs that provide a challenge. Assuming that is true, I am very sorry that you have had to play in the homebrews you have if that's how they are run. I have an ironclad rule in my own games, well more than one, but THIS ironclad rule is "no GM run "PC" will steal the spotlight from the players." When I do introduce a GM PC (which is rare) that character is always no more powerful than the least powerful PC in the party, and is generally deliberately less powerful.</p>
<p>5. You repeatedly state that homebrew campaigns are an exercise in GM ego. Of course they are. Most creative efforts require an ego, because it's a lot of hard work and that sort of thing doesn't happen without an ego. Sometimes that ego drives someone to a greater effort and a more creative result.</p>
<p>Finally, you do realize that all those commercial products are created the same way for the most part. The difference is exactly the same as any other professional vs amateur effort. Frequently those professionals became professionals because they were amateurs whose egos drove them to such levels of creativity and quality that their gamer friends said "dude, you should totally do this for money."</p>Jason, as a GM who runs campaigns exclusively in my own custom campaign world, let me respond.
1. If a player doesn't want to play in my world, that's fine. I don't want to run a published module, so it works out for both of us. They can find another game with another GM, and I might even join them.
2. So far I've never had a single player in over three decades say "nah, I don't want to play in your campaigns anymore." Quite the reverse in fact.
3. When you say "everyone thinks their...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T00:54:10ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Profession (Murderhobo)Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfre&page=6?Profession#2712013-12-14T00:38:01Z2013-12-14T00:35:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>As I said, I don't find most uses of "murderhobo" offensive. I find it stupid and immersion breaking, but that's a different thing. Much like building other pop culture references into characters. </blockquote><p>this
<p>While truly offensive behavior is universally recognized as being unwelcome in a group, it is also generally understood by most people that constant annoyance, while not equally outrageous, is still enough to ruin people's fun.</p>
<p>"Hey, that sort of bugs me."
<br />
"Well, that's not enough of a reason for me to stop it."</p>
<p>OK, sure. That's a great way to win friends and influence people.</p>thejeff wrote:As I said, I don't find most uses of "murderhobo" offensive. I find it stupid and immersion breaking, but that's a different thing. Much like building other pop culture references into characters.
this While truly offensive behavior is universally recognized as being unwelcome in a group, it is also generally understood by most people that constant annoyance, while not equally outrageous, is still enough to ruin people's fun.
"Hey, that sort of bugs me."
"Well, that's not...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-14T00:35:08ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Profession (Murderhobo)Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfre&page=4?Profession#1852013-12-14T01:38:37Z2013-12-13T17:52:50Z<p>I find it interesting that the argument that if something offends someone, it should be treated with respect and compassion is all well and good until people think "well, that <i>shouldn't be offensive!</i>" when suddenly its perfectly OK to not only do it, but do it deliberately to offend.</p>
<p>Interesting world we live in.</p>I find it interesting that the argument that if something offends someone, it should be treated with respect and compassion is all well and good until people think "well, that shouldn't be offensive!" when suddenly its perfectly OK to not only do it, but do it deliberately to offend.
Interesting world we live in.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-13T17:52:50ZRe: Forums: Movies: The Desolation of SmaugAdamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qg30?The-Desolation-of-Smaug#262013-12-15T19:07:44Z2013-12-13T16:21:21Z<p>I am probably as much of a Tolkien fanatic as there is on the planet. I have read "LotR" at least two dozen times. I've read 'The Hobbit" at least ten, including reading it to my children. I read the Silmarillion before most people knew the book had been published. I decorated my dorm room with LotR paintings and purchased every calendar for over a decade.</p>
<p>I found the LotR movies to be epic and awesome. While I personally was quite angry with how Peter Jackson depicted some things (Frodo turning on Sam, Farimir bringing Frodo to Denathor and a few other scenes), taking the movies purely on their own, they were incredibly good fantasy movies.</p>
<p>I am appalled at what Jackson has chosen to do with "The Hobbit" from a purist perspective.</p>
<p>But I enjoyed the first Hobbit movie. In terms of just watching a fantasy movie with no preconceived notions about the story or the characters, it was, just like LotR, a really fun and well-done fantasy movie.</p>
<p>I suspect that will be my take on this movie and the final Hobbit movie. Great fantasy movies. I won't begrudge my spending money on them, and I will tell myself that just the fact that the movies are being made, and made well, people will actually pick up the book and read it, and the large majority of them will like the book more than they expected to and might become Tolkien fans themselves.</p>
<p>It's just a movie. I am going to see it tonight and I expect to have a good time.</p>I am probably as much of a Tolkien fanatic as there is on the planet. I have read "LotR" at least two dozen times. I've read 'The Hobbit" at least ten, including reading it to my children. I read the Silmarillion before most people knew the book had been published. I decorated my dorm room with LotR paintings and purchased every calendar for over a decade.
I found the LotR movies to be epic and awesome. While I personally was quite angry with how Peter Jackson depicted some things (Frodo...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-13T16:21:21ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Campaign Settings, whoa, good gawd y’all, what are they good for…*Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qg6m&page=2?Campaign-Settings-whoa-good-gawd-y-all-what#632013-12-13T16:31:42Z2013-12-13T16:12:32Z<p>My campaign world has been heavily impacted by the PCs who have adventured in it.</p>
<p>Towns are named after famous PCs. One of the PCs was lifted to demigod status and has actual temples and worshippers. Songs are sung about them. Some of them have become integral NPCs after the player had to move away or for some other reason no longer plays.</p>
<p>I take the whole "collaborative story telling" meme very seriouusly.</p>My campaign world has been heavily impacted by the PCs who have adventured in it.
Towns are named after famous PCs. One of the PCs was lifted to demigod status and has actual temples and worshippers. Songs are sung about them. Some of them have become integral NPCs after the player had to move away or for some other reason no longer plays.
I take the whole "collaborative story telling" meme very seriouusly.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-13T16:12:32ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=7?The-Murderhobo-slander#3092013-12-15T13:39:26Z2013-12-13T05:55:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jaelithe wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Adamantine Dragon wrote:</div><blockquote><p>I looked at it and thought "waitaminute... If there's a frigging BATTLE in this room, the whole DANG DUNGEON is going to hear it..." Then I looked at the skeletons in the room next to the goblins and thought "Why aren't the skeletons attacking the goblins?"</p>
<p>So I threw the whole thing out, instituted what I called a "dungeon ecology" and redid the whole thing starting with the concept that whatever the PCs found had to <i>make some sort of sense</i> from an ecological, cultural and physical law sense.</blockquote>So <i>you're</i> the one! :) </blockquote><p>Heh, it gets worse. At that time we had minis and used them to represent our characters, but we didn't use battle grids or do detailed tactical deconstruction. We mostly did what is now called "theater of the mind". But my brothers are also analytical and logical like me, so we found ourselves in a number of debates about the dynamics of a battle here and there. One day the party found itself on the shore of a river which was blocking their path to find a dragon cave they were looking for (by now they were pretty high level and the "Dragon Wars" had begun). The area was patrolled by chromatic dragons and as they looked across the river, one of the party spotted a couple of specks in the distant sky.
</p>
"Dragons!" they cried.
<br />
They quickly retreated into the trees lining that side of the river and waited, watching the dragons as they got closer and closer. Finally they realized the dragons were following the river and if they continued to do so, they would fly right past the party. Eventually they got close enough that the party could tell they were not red dragons, I don't remember what color they were, probably blue because the red and blue were the primary dragons I had rolled up.</p>
<p>Well, as part of their loot from an earlier fight, they had recovered a bag full of gems enchanted with the fireball spell. At that time the mechanic of the gems was that you threw them, and when they hit something, or exceeded 120 feet from the thrower, they blew up. Each gem was like a 6d6 up to a 10d6 fireball. These were things I just made up, and I was still a raw GM, it hadn't occurred to me that they would ever have a desire to throw them all at one time.</p>
<p>But that's what they decided. They quickly climbed a tree and said "As the dragons fly by, we toss the whole sack full of fireball gems at them!"</p>
<p>I looked at them, visualized the scene in my mind and realized that this was something that could turn into a major, major argument if I wasn't careful. So I did something I had never done up until then.</p>
<p>I drew a battle map. I drew out the river, the trees and drew them with a grid to allow them to place their miniatures. I also used bottle caps or lifesavers or something to provide a third dimension. At the time I was studying Physics in college, so drawing out objects moving around and calculating distances, velocities, intersections, etc. was second nature.</p>
<p>Then I explained to the players that this was going to be done one step at a time, with every detail of the fight worked out according to the rules of the game and the laws of physics that should apply.</p>
<p>So I calculated the speed the dragons were flying, then worked out the speed the handfuls of gems would be thrown, pre-determined the path and height the dragons would fly and worked out the size of the dragons (squares they occupied) and the radius of the fireballs.</p>
<p>Then I said "OK, the dragons are moving down the river at a very fast pace." I gave them the speed in terms of how fast they typically moved, I don't remember exactly but it was like "they are flying four times as fast as your party marches". Then I put some origami birds on the map to represent the dragons and said, "Here we go, tell me exactly when you throw the gems" and started moving the dragons one square at a time.</p>
<p>Well, they miscalculated slightly. The dragons ended up moving slightly further than they expected before the thrown gems detonated. It ended up knocking one dragon out of the sky, but the other was merely injured and circled around to fight.</p>
<p>We worked out the entire fight that way. The downed dragon couldn't fly, but it could still walk, so they had to fight two wounded dragons and we did the whole thing on the map. It took like a dozen pages of paper that I frantically taped together as we played out the fight.</p>
<p>Finally, it was over. Half the party was dead, but so were the dragons. My brothers looked up from the fight, both of them with a sort of stunned expression on their faces and said "Oh my god that was AMAZING!"</p>
<p>And I have been using battle grids ever since.</p>Jaelithe wrote:Adamantine Dragon wrote:I looked at it and thought "waitaminute... If there's a frigging BATTLE in this room, the whole DANG DUNGEON is going to hear it..." Then I looked at the skeletons in the room next to the goblins and thought "Why aren't the skeletons attacking the goblins?"
So I threw the whole thing out, instituted what I called a "dungeon ecology" and redid the whole thing starting with the concept that whatever the PCs found had to make some sort of sense from an...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-13T05:55:40ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=7?The-Murderhobo-slander#3052013-12-18T15:29:41Z2013-12-12T22:40:41Z<p>zylphryx,</p>
<p>My very first try at being a GM was with my older brothers, one of whom had been playing D&D for a couple years on ship before leaving the Navy. I was a rank beginner who had been so focused on school and work that I hadn't even HEARD of D&D before he introduced me to it.</p>
<p>Anyway, I do what I always do, which is I looked up all I could on the subject (not so easy in the late 70s...) and went to a store that sold the stuff and read through some "modules" a couple of which were simply xerox copies of typewritten originals.</p>
<p>So I laid out my first dungeon and it had a fairly standard "monster progression" with some of the standard monsters and after laying it out I looked at it and thought "waitaminute... If there's a frigging BATTLE in this room, the whole DANG DUNGEON is going to hear it..." Then I looked at the skeletons in the room next to the goblins and thought "Why aren't the skeletons attacking the goblins?"</p>
<p>So I threw the whole thing out, instituted what I called a "dungeon ecology" and redid the whole thing starting with the concept that whatever the PCs found had to <i>make some sort of sense</i> from an ecological, cultural and physical law sense.</p>
<p>So then the PCs (my brothers) come into the dungeon. They narrowly survive the first encounter (which was, don't laugh, I think a rat swarm or something silly today that was quite lethal then) and move on to the next room.</p>
<p>Which was empty. They searched it EXHAUSTIVELY. They tapped on every rotting brick. They pried up every loose floorstone. They waited.</p>
<p>Then they moved on to the next room, which was also empty.</p>
<p>"What the hell?" my brother asked. "Where are the monsters?"</p>
<p>"It's a big ruined castle, if you look around you might find some, but if they had been in these rooms, you'd have already fought them."</p>
<p>So they began a wider, less thorough scouting process and soon enough a new paradigm was in play. Instead of plodding from room to room to beat on things, they were looking for clues, trying to solve a puzzle and thinking about the story and the plot. Pretty soon they were ranging all over a wide area of country as they put the story together.</p>zylphryx,
My very first try at being a GM was with my older brothers, one of whom had been playing D&D for a couple years on ship before leaving the Navy. I was a rank beginner who had been so focused on school and work that I hadn't even HEARD of D&D before he introduced me to it.
Anyway, I do what I always do, which is I looked up all I could on the subject (not so easy in the late 70s...) and went to a store that sold the stuff and read through some "modules" a couple of which were...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-12T22:40:41ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=6?The-Murderhobo-slander#2712013-12-12T21:42:30Z2013-12-12T15:16:47Z<p>Heh... nice HD</p>
<p>I actually think this is a worthwhile discussion to have, in spite of the complaints that we should focus our efforts on all the other real world -isms that cry out for being addressed. In the final analysis this is still a GAME to most people, not a cultural responsibility simulation. My Chess analogy was carefully considered, because I think there is a completely valid and reasonable argument that you can play Pathfinder at different levels of "realism" not only in the areas of magic or human limitations, but also in terms of cultural differences.</p>
<p>Just as Chess ignores the moral implications of knights slaughtering pawns, it is, to me, a perfectly acceptable way to play Pathfinder to create races of unrepentant, irredeemable monsters whose purpose is to allow people to be heroic and nothing more.</p>
<p>That doesn't mean that it is appropriate to simply embark on indiscriminate slaughter of even those irredeemable races, and frankly I have never seen that in any published AP or module, it is always presented as the irredeemable races have raided a town and the town now needs to be defended, the enslaved captives released and the monsters pushed back from the town's borders.</p>
<p>That's just one level of cultural abstraction. Another level of cultural abstraction is the level where there are no irredeemable races and all races are presented as analogues to human races, and the game can then provide a useful lesson in diversity and sensitivity.</p>
<p>The game works both ways. It can be played both ways without one way being "right" and the other being "wrong."</p>Heh... nice HD
I actually think this is a worthwhile discussion to have, in spite of the complaints that we should focus our efforts on all the other real world -isms that cry out for being addressed. In the final analysis this is still a GAME to most people, not a cultural responsibility simulation. My Chess analogy was carefully considered, because I think there is a completely valid and reasonable argument that you can play Pathfinder at different levels of "realism" not only in the areas...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-12T15:16:47ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=6?The-Murderhobo-slander#2522013-12-12T13:45:00Z2013-12-12T06:48:44Z<p>Umbriere, why are you so insistent that other people game according to your expectations and preferences?</p>
<p>Why is it important to you that other people game in a way that "makes sense to you?"</p>
<p>Do you consider Chess to be a racist game? Chess is an abstraction, and the chess pieces are supposed to represent different armies. But one is black the other is white, and each attacks the other with utter intent to destroy.</p>
<p>Pathfinder is not the real world. It is an abstraction with rules to allow people to game.</p>
<p>Just like Chess.</p>
<p>If you want to play the game with morally flexible goblins, orcs <i>and frickin' DEMONS</i> nobody is stopping you. Why do you insist that people play the way you want to play, or else they are racists?</p>
<p>Based on your continued insistence on pursuing your perspective, I doubt you will acknowledge my points here, but I have to think the vast majority of readers are seeing this and saying "yeah, what's up with that? Why does everyone have to play according to Umbriere's rules or else they are racist?"</p>Umbriere, why are you so insistent that other people game according to your expectations and preferences?
Why is it important to you that other people game in a way that "makes sense to you?"
Do you consider Chess to be a racist game? Chess is an abstraction, and the chess pieces are supposed to represent different armies. But one is black the other is white, and each attacks the other with utter intent to destroy.
Pathfinder is not the real world. It is an abstraction with rules to allow...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-12T06:48:44ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=5?The-Murderhobo-slander#2502013-12-22T19:33:41Z2013-12-12T06:14:56Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>i accept those beings may have some genocidal and racist members, but i won't accept that an entire race is genocidal or racist.</p>
<p>yes, the majority of orcs, demons and such might be racist and genocidal, but there would be a handful of exceptions that aren't.</blockquote><p>Then this is a major problem Umbriere. Your entire analysis is an apples vs piston rods argument.
<p>Because you are <i>rejecting out of hand</i> a fundamental premise of the game these people are playing. In other words you are asserting that in THEIR WORLDS, that THEY MADE UP, creatures MUST conform to your expectations, and that races of wholly irredeemable monsters can't exist. Period.</p>
<p>That's a problem Umbriere, not because those people are gaming wrong, but because you won't accept a fundamental premise of the way they game.</p>
<p>Because, I suppose, you just think you know their world better than they do or something.</p>Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:i accept those beings may have some genocidal and racist members, but i won't accept that an entire race is genocidal or racist.
yes, the majority of orcs, demons and such might be racist and genocidal, but there would be a handful of exceptions that aren't.
Then this is a major problem Umbriere. Your entire analysis is an apples vs piston rods argument. Because you are rejecting out of hand a fundamental premise of the game these people are playing. In other...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-12T06:14:56ZRe: Forums: Comics: How do you reboot Wonder Woman?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ptj5&page=6?How-do-you-reboot-Wonder-Woman#2862013-12-12T13:52:21Z2013-12-12T06:05:18Z<p>Every time I see this thread I can't help but feel a compulsion to answer the OP's question with:</p>
<p>"Take her to a cobbler."</p>
<p>.. and there, I finally succumbed to that compulsion...</p>Every time I see this thread I can't help but feel a compulsion to answer the OP's question with:
"Take her to a cobbler."
.. and there, I finally succumbed to that compulsion...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-12T06:05:18ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=5?The-Murderhobo-slander#2462013-12-12T13:34:55Z2013-12-12T05:42:14Z<p>Umbriere, this is a "general defense" and isn't really related to how my group games, but is relevant to the assumptions you appear to be making.</p>
<p>I don't play a lot of modules or APs, but the ones I've seen where the PCs are expected to go "slaughter" a bunch of orcs or goblins or lizardfolk, the scenario has always been that the PC's town has been attacked by them and they have to defend the town. I've never seen any module or adventure path that simply sends out adventurers with a blanket mission to slaughter green people. Perhaps something like that exists, but I've never seen it.</p>
<p>You list "demons" on your list of things that would be racist to attack. I'm not buying that in even the most PC-crazed approach to gaming. Demons are frickin' DEMONS Umbriere, not misunderstood differently colored people.</p>
<p>Are you willing to acknowledge the concept that in some worlds there might be sentient beings who are essentially racist and genocidal themselves? And if so, do you feel that defending against their racist, genocidal attacks makes the townspeople racist and genocidal themselves?</p>
<p>I understand that there are situations and game tables where the killing of goblins, kobolds or orcs is encouraged. At those tables though, at least as far as I have ever seen, those kobolds, orcs or goblins are not "differently colored people", they are actual MONSTERS. Sure that's not very subtle or sophisticated, but it's not OUR WORLD is it? Do you completely reject the notion that a world could exist with intelligent monsters who seek to kill human beings for food and fun, and in that world the only way to defend against them is to kill them?</p>
<p>Because those worlds aren't, you know, our world Umbriere. And those creatures aren't misunderstood, oppressed minorities.</p>
<p>They are MONSTERS.</p>
<p>What you seem to be saying is that playing a game where actual MONSTERS are in play is badwrongfun. Is that what you are saying?</p>Umbriere, this is a "general defense" and isn't really related to how my group games, but is relevant to the assumptions you appear to be making.
I don't play a lot of modules or APs, but the ones I've seen where the PCs are expected to go "slaughter" a bunch of orcs or goblins or lizardfolk, the scenario has always been that the PC's town has been attacked by them and they have to defend the town. I've never seen any module or adventure path that simply sends out adventurers with a blanket...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-12T05:42:14ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=5?The-Murderhobo-slander#2022013-12-12T06:03:07Z2013-12-11T21:52:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Vivianne Laflamme wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">zylphryx wrote:</div><blockquote>So stop arguing as if your opinion is the end all and accept that others may have a differing view. Just because the thread contains an argument are to whether others agree with his view does not make AD's view any less valid than yours. </blockquote><p>I have refuted Adamantine Dragon's position. I explained why his conclusion does not follow from the premises. If someone disagrees with this, then they should provide a coherent reason to disagree. Just calling it an opinion is a dishonest attempt to avoid addressing the points I raised.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">knightnday wrote:</div><blockquote>And if you aren't sure that the perception of violence in games is a concern, I invite you to review some of the news stories after each and every mass shooting.</blockquote>I am aware of these news stories. Note that they have not stopped violent video games from being popular and commercially successful. </blockquote><p>Vivienne, you have asserted a position. Nothing more, nothing less. You might think you have "refuted my argument" but that is nothing but a conceit.Vivianne Laflamme wrote:zylphryx wrote:So stop arguing as if your opinion is the end all and accept that others may have a differing view. Just because the thread contains an argument are to whether others agree with his view does not make AD's view any less valid than yours.
I have refuted Adamantine Dragon's position. I explained why his conclusion does not follow from the premises. If someone disagrees with this, then they should provide a coherent reason to disagree. Just calling it an...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T21:52:26ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=4?The-Murderhobo-slander#1812013-12-11T22:25:50Z2013-12-11T19:24:14Z<p>It is perhaps relevant to suggest that some gamers play "murder hobos" precisely because they've been led to believe that's how you play the game by their encountering of terms like "murder hobos" in casual use by the gamers they know.</p>It is perhaps relevant to suggest that some gamers play "murder hobos" precisely because they've been led to believe that's how you play the game by their encountering of terms like "murder hobos" in casual use by the gamers they know.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T19:24:14ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=4?The-Murderhobo-slander#1722013-12-11T18:29:34Z2013-12-11T18:20:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Matt Thomason wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Orthos wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Also I'll be honest. When discussions drift into Isms, my eyes start to glaze over. I've stopped trying to keep track of all the Isms floating around, there seems to be a new one popping up every time I turn around.</p>
<p>I'm equal-opportunity apathetic. I don't care enough about everybody to make an effort. </blockquote>Wait... doesn't that make you guilty of Ismism? </blockquote><p>I think this is an ism schism.Matt Thomason wrote:Orthos wrote:Also I'll be honest. When discussions drift into Isms, my eyes start to glaze over. I've stopped trying to keep track of all the Isms floating around, there seems to be a new one popping up every time I turn around.
I'm equal-opportunity apathetic. I don't care enough about everybody to make an effort.
Wait... doesn't that make you guilty of Ismism? I think this is an ism schism.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T18:20:36ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=4?The-Murderhobo-slander#1542013-12-23T22:36:40Z2013-12-11T17:23:03Z<p>There is a fallacy in here somewhere, something like "you can't worry about trivial things, there are too many huge things to worry about first."</p>
<p>Discussing the use of the term murderhobo has absolutely no connection whatsoever with discussing other isms. It doesn't suck energy away that should be focused on other isms, it doesn't yank other ism discussions off the messageboard, it doesn't impact any analysis or conclusion that can be reached in other discussions about isms.</p>
<p>In other words.</p>
<p>"Squirrel!"</p>
<p>Or maybe "Please stop talking about what you want to talk about and get back to talking about what I want to talk about."</p>There is a fallacy in here somewhere, something like "you can't worry about trivial things, there are too many huge things to worry about first."
Discussing the use of the term murderhobo has absolutely no connection whatsoever with discussing other isms. It doesn't suck energy away that should be focused on other isms, it doesn't yank other ism discussions off the messageboard, it doesn't impact any analysis or conclusion that can be reached in other discussions about isms.
In other
...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T17:23:03ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=3?The-Murderhobo-slander#1502013-12-11T17:13:06Z2013-12-11T17:09:47Z<p>Annabel, based on the number and intensity of threads covering the isms you listed, I think they are getting far more attention and discussion than the "murderhobo" thing is. I'm pretty sure this thread will end and be forgotten while all the other ism threads are still going strong.</p>Annabel, based on the number and intensity of threads covering the isms you listed, I think they are getting far more attention and discussion than the "murderhobo" thing is. I'm pretty sure this thread will end and be forgotten while all the other ism threads are still going strong.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T17:09:47ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: Individual vs group "fun"Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfp0&page=3?Individual-vs-group-fun#1142013-12-11T19:57:07Z2013-12-11T16:46:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Hama wrote:</div><blockquote> You forgot one. The group has a responsibility towards the GM. </blockquote><p>Heh, as a professional PM I can assure you that groups cannot have responsibilities. Only individuals can.
<p>Every individual in the group has a responsibility to attempt to cooperate with every other member of the group.</p>Hama wrote:You forgot one. The group has a responsibility towards the GM.
Heh, as a professional PM I can assure you that groups cannot have responsibilities. Only individuals can. Every individual in the group has a responsibility to attempt to cooperate with every other member of the group.Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T16:46:23ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: How do you go about creating a character for play?Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qg1h?How-do-you-go-about-creating-a-character-for#62013-12-11T19:45:44Z2013-12-11T16:38:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Arssanguinus wrote:</div><blockquote> Part of my process is quote mining ... Sitting down with a book or quotes seperated by topic and picking one that I think the character might put on their wall or say - once I have a large list, I have a pretty good feel for what sort of person they are. </blockquote><p>Hey, I like that. That's a great way to develop a personality. I am going to steal that idea. :)Arssanguinus wrote:Part of my process is quote mining ... Sitting down with a book or quotes seperated by topic and picking one that I think the character might put on their wall or say - once I have a large list, I have a pretty good feel for what sort of person they are.
Hey, I like that. That's a great way to develop a personality. I am going to steal that idea. :)Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T16:38:07ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=3?The-Murderhobo-slander#1082013-12-11T15:49:37Z2013-12-11T05:56:24Z<p>LOL Sarcasmancer...</p>
<p>By the way, I love that name.</p>
<p>I suppose we'll have to disagree, but I sorta like the way you do it. :)</p>LOL Sarcasmancer...
By the way, I love that name.
I suppose we'll have to disagree, but I sorta like the way you do it. :)Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T05:56:24ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=3?The-Murderhobo-slander#1032013-12-11T11:09:10Z2013-12-11T05:41:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">knightnday wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I imagine I am odd (yes, yes I am). The play style doesn't bother me overly much — most everyone likes a fight now and then, or even more often.</p>
<p>The term 'murderhobo' just irritates me, however. Doubly so when it is applied in game as an occupation (see other thread) or used to describe folks in character. </blockquote><p>It bothers me because it not only is the antithesis of how I play my characters, but it creates an image of gamers that plays directly into the stereotypes that cause non-gamers to sneer and condescend towards gamers as... well... "murder hobos."
<p>It implies that playing Pathfinder is essentially the same thing as playing Grand Theft Auto, or doing the grind in WoW, or otherwise simply ignoring morality, story and meaning.</p>
<p>Maybe it bothers me because I had to deal with accusations of satanism, witchcraft and mental instability when I first started playing this game and I'm tired of the derogatory stereotyping of the game and the people who play them.</p>knightnday wrote:I imagine I am odd (yes, yes I am). The play style doesn't bother me overly much -- most everyone likes a fight now and then, or even more often.
The term 'murderhobo' just irritates me, however. Doubly so when it is applied in game as an occupation (see other thread) or used to describe folks in character.
It bothers me because it not only is the antithesis of how I play my characters, but it creates an image of gamers that plays directly into the stereotypes that cause...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T05:41:49ZRe: Forums: Movies: FrozenAdamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qeib&page=2?Frozen#562013-12-12T08:18:08Z2013-12-11T05:32:11Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">TriOmegaZero wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Adamantine Dragon wrote:</div><blockquote>For me anyway. </blockquote>Me too. It seemed like they used that twist to set up the twist of how Anna was saved, rather than figuring something else out. But I enjoyed the characters, despite how much they reminded me of others. </blockquote><p>Yep, and if during the "Let it Go" song they tried to distract me from the plot with awesome visuals, great music, great vocals and the completely unexpected display of a Disney princess reveling in her newly discovered womanhood...
<p>Well, they distracted very, very well.</p>
<p>I'm totally going to make Elsa a boss in my campaign world. Totally.</p>TriOmegaZero wrote:Adamantine Dragon wrote:For me anyway.
Me too. It seemed like they used that twist to set up the twist of how Anna was saved, rather than figuring something else out. But I enjoyed the characters, despite how much they reminded me of others. Yep, and if during the "Let it Go" song they tried to distract me from the plot with awesome visuals, great music, great vocals and the completely unexpected display of a Disney princess reveling in her newly discovered womanhood......Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T05:32:11ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=2?The-Murderhobo-slander#762013-12-11T04:01:10Z2013-12-11T02:49:49Z<p>Jaelithe, it is always amusing to me how some of my posts get removed but a post accusing me of having my sense of humor surgically removed is perfectly acceptable on these boards...</p>
<p>I will admit that my sense of humor is unusual. Like Knight, I find movies like the Jackass movies to be a blight upon civilization and the subtle allure of the Three Stooges has always eluded me.</p>
<p>But my personal perspective is that my sense of humor is... selective, and generally reacts to humor that requires a bit of cleverness.</p>
<p>And you know what? Twice on this thread I've stated that my initial reaction to the whole "murder hobo" thing was "heh, that's sort of clever."</p>
<p>But now it's becoming a meme, as I said.</p>
<p>But fine, you don't care. So what if we lose a few prudish parents and their kids. No loss. I mean it's not like this hobby has a reputation that already makes it somewhat difficult for some people to accept it.</p>
<p>Done with this.</p>Jaelithe, it is always amusing to me how some of my posts get removed but a post accusing me of having my sense of humor surgically removed is perfectly acceptable on these boards...
I will admit that my sense of humor is unusual. Like Knight, I find movies like the Jackass movies to be a blight upon civilization and the subtle allure of the Three Stooges has always eluded me.
But my personal perspective is that my sense of humor is... selective, and generally reacts to humor that requires...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T02:49:49ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr&page=2?The-Murderhobo-slander#652013-12-11T04:00:04Z2013-12-11T01:56:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jaelithe wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I think there is a point past which one cannot be concerned with "the slings and arrows of outrageous" rhetoric.</p>
<p>There's more than enough amorality, immorality, relativism, techno-babble, mutual loathing on pseudo-principle, unjustified superciliousness, contempt for organized religion and iconoclasm here to horrify any uninformed parent long before they stumble across the murder-hobos meme.</p>
<p>But despair not, for you are my people, and I love you.</p>
<p>(P.S.: I almost added "Pull!" but thought that might undermine my gesture of affection.) </blockquote><p>Jaelithe, sure, that's all true, but the sniping and babble you refer to is just standard internet messageboard stuff that any parent who's spent any time on the internet will see as noise. Calling the game a "murder hobo" enterprise is not the same as "you suck" "No, you suck!" When the gamer community more or less accepts that the game itself is an enterprise in greedy serial killing, that is a message that goes beyond internet noise and undermines the goal we have of bringing new players into the community.
<p>But hey, so what, right? If that sort of thing bothers them, who needs 'em?</p>Jaelithe wrote:I think there is a point past which one cannot be concerned with "the slings and arrows of outrageous" rhetoric.
There's more than enough amorality, immorality, relativism, techno-babble, mutual loathing on pseudo-principle, unjustified superciliousness, contempt for organized religion and iconoclasm here to horrify any uninformed parent long before they stumble across the murder-hobos meme.
But despair not, for you are my people, and I love you.
(P.S.: I almost added...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-11T01:56:12ZRe: Forums/Gamer Life: General Discussion: The "Murderhobo" slander...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfwr?The-Murderhobo-slander#502013-12-12T22:13:58Z2013-12-10T23:46:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">MrSin wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Adamantine Dragon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Fabius Maximus wrote:</div><blockquote> I can't believe that you all are discussing this with a straight face. The term is in itself a <i>joke</i>, for gods' sake. </blockquote><p>Last I checked, this entire endeavor with all it's millions of words of discussion is a <i>game</i>, for god's sake.
<p>The goal of this discussion is to KEEP the term a joke, because it has been evolving into a gaming meme. It sort of ceased being technically a "joke" when people started coming up with ways to incorporate it into PFS play, which is essentially making it part of the game. </blockquote>Except no one is doing that. </blockquote><p>Repetition is the key to rhetorical success Sin. If you can say it more frequently than people feel like refuting it, you'll eventually win. It's like politics.MrSin wrote:Adamantine Dragon wrote: Fabius Maximus wrote: I can't believe that you all are discussing this with a straight face. The term is in itself a joke, for gods' sake.
Last I checked, this entire endeavor with all it's millions of words of discussion is a game, for god's sake. The goal of this discussion is to KEEP the term a joke, because it has been evolving into a gaming meme. It sort of ceased being technically a "joke" when people started coming up with ways to incorporate it...Adamantine Dragon (alias of brassbaboon)2013-12-10T23:46:06Z