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blackbloodtroll wrote:

When to say to no to Disable Device?

When it's not a trap.

Or a lock.


You're thinking real-world physics on something that is complete fantasy. You might as well ask how well the bullet holds together when the average all-lead bullet basically shatters on impact of anything hard enough to change its trajectory. Or what happens when it does shatter.


Yes, Yes, and yes.

Disruption weapon is disruption weapon, even if you decide the vampire "survives" decapitation (he doesn't but whatever) he can't re-attach, and while every once in a while a DM will rule mistform over-rides and works like ghosts after Pac-man ate 'em, those calls are rare.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Headshots didn't play into zombies until recently, and it was actually based on a plot from The Smurfs written in 1959.

I still don't know any examples of a vampire being afraid of mirrors, got any examples?

Edit: Wow, words fail me.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

While there are limits to success, your capacity for failure is infinite.


Well, usually. It really did happen in Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain because the designers decided rain counts as running water, but that game also had a lot of other weird things go on.

Point is, vampires got a lot of weaknesses.

lemeres wrote:
Looking at it again though, it says you can't enter water while you are a mist. So that could mean they can't use the power underwater. That leaves hope- Tetori grabs vampire, barbarians goes long with tetori. Touch down (on water). Simple. Later, barbarian and tetori go back to the inn to party with their cheerleader groupies.

If I were DM I would rule the vampire can still turn into vapor and it immediately rockets to the surface like a bubble. That's just what makes sense to me, obviously YMMV.

Interesting factor of the "hide the coffin" game is that if you can find all the vents the vampire can mist to its coffin though you don't need much to plug them, mist form can't really move stuff, like a mud plug.


Dragonstar (a futuristic D&D setting that is old, 3.0 old if memory serves) had monks get the "dodge bullet" ability which simply avoided bullets. It didn't kick in until level 4 while deflect arrows was level 2 (memories are hazy so I could be wrong) and went with the ruling that bullets were not arrows.

Alternatively, your bullet-catcher can wear gloves with thick steel palms, the average bullet carries slightly less force than the "kick" of your handgun/rifle and could, in fact, be caught if it wasn't fracturing and punching a hole in whatever you were catching it with.

RAW was covered already. And for RAI I have no idea.


Eh, kinda. Even the backwoods parts of the world have AK-47s here on Earth, Arms dealers get around because there's always a blood diamond buck to be made. Suspension of disbelief is still possible, but don't dismiss it as unchallenging.


I'd forgotten the whole "afraid of mirrors" thing, in fact I still don't remember much about it or where it's from. A point was made in another recent thread that real-world vampire mythology is basically all over the freakin' map from driving iron nails into ribs, bricks into mouths, or white rice on your doorstep to destroy, block, or otherwise affect vampires.

As for *using* their weaknesses, well once they are defined PCs will use them same as any other monster, because we're gamers and that's how we do. If the weaknesses are too useless to matter in a proper encounter then they probably weren't major weaknesses in the first place.

I still rather enjoyed John Carpenter's Vampires, and how a team of slayers worked by harpooning vampires in their dark lairs and dragging them out into the sunlight with mechanical winches.

As for me, I haven't actually fought that many vampires before, DMs seem to shy away from what is essentially an undead junkie (blood-addiction is usually described as drug-like) who has to hide inside a wooden box 50% of the time and has trouble with (according to legacy of cain) rainy nights.


Honestly I've watched and enjoyed aneough anime that schizo-tech doesn't faze me that much. You have a dude with a sword fighting an ogre with a cannon-sized musket fighting a halfling with a lightning gun and it's fun!

But at the same time I can dig if it's not your speed, and that maybe it doesn't make any dang sense that the super-rich and really powerful dude ruling a nation that does have some amount of trade is still rolling around with pikes and bows when there's a dude been selling AK-47s for 300 years. (That was hyperbole, BTW)

Really, what matters is that you have some kind of explanation (no matter how phony-baloney) that explains WHY the floating egalitarian continent of hypertech that sprinkles adventurers across the land like a jackpot machine doesn't leave a noticable amount of after-market tech in the markets of Master Trading and Shipping Archipelago even though they sail *literally* around the entire world. Maybe strong magic causes tech malfunctions except when you're a major PC or NPC, maybe Hypertech Continent has a really stupid but really well-enforced Prime Directive, whatever it takes.


Some FAQ I can't quote right now (lazy) said if you can get the prerequisites for a feat temporarily you can take the feat, it just stops working if you lose the prerequisite. There may have been something about magic items not counting or some such but I don't remember.

Or so I've been told.


Yeah it takes a lot of water, I mean those numbers seem kind of low, really...

But the idea with using a decanter is the PCs sell a bunch of water and drain the town treasury while putting all the other water-merchants out of business. Destabilize the local economy, and leave with the decanter just before the civil war starts while feeling like they did a good deed.

Or they use Ultimate Campaign, and are basically treating it like lordship in 1st or 2nd edition.


Gambit wrote:

(dynamic campaign world)

So I am curious, is this relatively common? Do you/your DM, whether using a published campaign setting or a homebrew of personal design, have the actions of the PC's carry over from one campaign to the next as part of the greater world? Or are your groups adventures usually more self contained?

No.

There are several reasons why it is not common.

First, for most of us it's hard to get or keep a game together. People change, people move, people have falling-outs, people get really sick of DMing (it is a task that takes "a special kind of crazy") and campaigns, even campaign worlds fall apart.

Second, DMs get bored with their worlds, even if you run the same world over 10 years with 4 almost completely different groups of players chances are good what you thought was a cool setting world in 2004 seems dumb or boring now because your interests changed or because there are too many craters and horrors now. (Dang PCs).

Third, when you get a new gamer or group or DM it tends to be easier to go with an existing setting, that way in between job and failing marriage and lousy car you can read up on an AP instead of trying to craft enough pre-fab stuff that you know what happens when the PCs misinterpret a cryptic clue and begin sailing due north (the adventure leads south) looking for a magic teapot (which doesn't exist) because they're PCs and that stuff happens.

Is it cooler? Absolutely. And when it does happen it's usually a lot of fun.

An amusing parallel to this is the fact that Golarion seems to have the same problem of things rarely having an effect. Guns have existed in some parts of the world for millenia, there is a section of the world that has space-tech that is LITERALLY older than some gods, and yet it remains stuck in medieval tech levels and major events in the time line seem static. Cheliax was taken over by devils recently, but the earliest your campaigns tend to go is after Cheliax was taken over by devils. There is a flying city populated by amazingly powerful spellcasters that has been stuck in hover mode since Earthfall (thousands of years ago) that will be stuck in hover mode a thousand years hence. But Aroden died recently, and that's a big deal.

It's like there is one DM who manages to have major campaigns have an effect on things, but a bunch of other DMs whose parties and campaigns happen but don't really do anything.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
How about a no-magic setting? Instead you use psionics.

That's a high-magic game with different names for all the magic.

Or Dark Sun, which was low-power except all the ways it wasn't at all (including massive stat buffs, everybody having psionics, and playable races that included Giants and Thri-keen).


Better to just use Extended Mage Armor and the shielded meld abilities, and spend your money on something else like Ring of Protection or Amulet of Natural Armor.


Tarantula wrote:

If you could get 9th level spell access, then create a demiplane filled with water, and open a gate to it.

Then again, its only up to a 20' diameter hole, held for CL rounds, I think a decanter still gets your more water in a day.

Assuming endless flow at the speed of gravity (~9.8 m/s) and some very quick and dirty math involving this equation you get 452 thousand gallons per round for a demiplane that lasts days per level with a gate to it as part of the create demiplane spell.

That's a lot of assumptions though, including but not limited to "does the plane keep making water as it empties out" and "what about airflow back up the 'pipe' of the gate" and "does the water continue to be water after it leaves the demiplane?"

I don't know where I got the idea, but I tend to assume any time I try to abuse a demiplane's functions a wild House Rule will appear saying that foodstuffs and water and such that come from a life-bearing paradise demiplane spoil, vitrefy, turn into aether, or become otherwise toxic/useless a few hours after being removed from the demiplane.

Come to think; taken to a logical extreme this gels well with the fae/fairy realms' "Eat anything in their world and be trapped forever" trope. You digest materials made out of aether, and when you leave it starts to turn back into aether even if it's now a part of your body.

But this is all a bit tangential.

Dave Justus wrote:

Do you really want a rousing game of Accountants and Actuaries playing the adventure path: Water Market Capitalization and Monopoly Pricing? Or are you more interested in breaking into some dungeons and killing some big bads for their stuff?

If it is the latter, enjoy the flavor the DM has given you about the desert city and water merchants. Make a few bucks now and then, but don't try and break the economy or otherwise ruin the game.

If it is the former, you have plenty of good advice above.

We're already playing A&A right here in this thread. I think we all made 2nd level.


Personally I never liked the spell tax in the first place. It seems like more of a "because 1st edition" than "because game balance" thing.


I'm torn between being passive=aggressive or not when I say here's what google said.

Also claims it's in Ultimate Combat, but the link from the google search engine has "3pp" (Third party product) in the URL.

Edit: Check page 70.


burkoJames wrote:
While the argument was made void when the gm looked up the spell and pointed out that Lead blades is personal, it has far ranging effects. His way would make enlarged small weapons (via lead blades, impact, enlarge person, ect) better then an actual medium weapon. So I wanted the rules board to discuss this. I doubt it needs a FAQ, but I'm curious if the general opinion is that I'm doing this wrong.

Well perhaps I am mistaken, but I think RAW says that a small weapon being used by a medium creature takes a -2 penalty to hit, even if it was enlarged.

I mean that's only a malicious compliance answer...

Also from a design perspective I think of how d12 vs. 2d6 stacks up on weapons that are supposed to functionally be the same and remember sometimes the tables are just ignored because, "eff you imma make wut ah want!"


But no smoking, this is a family-friendly game.

blahpers wrote:
The text on preparing from a borrowed spellbook also refers to "spells known". It's a thing; it just doesn't come up very often.

Well, C&P from the SRD sez:

d20SRD wrote:


Spellbooks

A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook.

Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook:

Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists (see Magic).

Spells Gained at a New Level:

Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast.

Spells Copied from Another Spellbook or Scroll:

A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty.

No use of the word "known," one of use of the word "learn." A quick word search of the PDF of the Core Rulebook (2nd printing if it matters) only has "spells known" for sorceror, bard, and the line; "spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster.)"

I mean maybe this was updated in another printing or something...


There is no FAQ and no general consensus on this forum. The two camps are basically "yes" and "no" with decent arguments (and "you're a poopy-head" arguments too) for both.

RAW, the rules always refer to a wizard's "spells known," just "in his or her spellbook." This means you can "steal" a spell out of a wizard's head by stealing his spellbook or ripping out some pages. There is a lot of specific language in the magic chapter that specifies "spells in wizard's spellbook."

The only passage I know of that DOESN'T do this is the Spell Mastery feat (uh oh) which says, "Benefit: Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells that you already know equal to your Intelligence modifier. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook."

But there is never any discrete definition of what spells count as "spells you know". It's not like you can write a spell you used to cast into a new spellbook if you lost your old one, and it is not like you don't know OF all the spells when you use Wild Arcana to spontaneously cast any spell on the wizard list.

I mean, can you Wild Arcana a spell, then write it into your spellbook?

Your mileage will vary, I'm playing a mythic character with All Of The Spells but I had to ask the GM for a ruling.


Flying ranged is tempting, but at that point you're getting specific enough you need to answer 2 questions:

-What is the adventuring party?
and
-What are the adventures generally going to be?

Being the aerial doom, raining death from above like an angry god is fun, but if your party is 3 or 4 squishies you'll be spending a lot of time on the ground saving their hides. And if you spend a lot of time underground, flight won't be much of an issue.

Another point is that you don't need that many archer-focused feats to be "good enough" at arrowing folks. Maybe that is ONE of your tricks, but you are als a a dive-bombing, fly-by-attacking predator who hits the wizard hiding in the back (possibly even grappling and dragging him away screaming) is also an option. If you're multiclassing with fighter levels the feats are pretty easy to get for both. Plenty of fighter archetypes that should synergize with your natural attacks, too. It lets you be a switch-hitter who does ranged damage-dealing and linebacker blocking as needed and as the terrain allows. Because that's the last point, if you're in a dungeon with a low (regular) ceiling, those wings don't mean a dang thing.

Retraining...well I wouldn't allow it if I was DM, but I'm not DM.


Scythia wrote:
Besides, I would argue that a tabletop gaming world is solipsistic by design. No matter what happens in a gaming world, unless it directly or indirectly affects the player characters, it doesn't really matter. If Farmer McGee breaks his leg, has a bad harvest, and has to give up his farm, it doesn't matter unless the player characters know (and care about) Farmer McGee, or if it leads to other plot affecting the characters. In that sense, things that don't affect the characters may as well not exist.

This describes all of fiction.

Scythia wrote:
Pessimistic? I would suggest it's realistic. Anything that you see someone do multiple times a day isn't going to seem special. Whether or not it's rare in the broader world won't affect the fact that it's common to the party. Let's say I had telekinesis, and use it regularly to perform tasks. Surely my friends would at first be surprised by it, and think it special, but if we traveled together for days on end (like adventuring parties do), they would get used to my telekinesis. Even if I was the only telekinetic they ever heard about in the entire world, telekinesis would be no big deal to them anymore.

This principle is the basis of the "it only works once" trope. Wherein a totally awesome power or finishing move that won the day or killed the baddie stops being effective next episode/chapter/session. It is difficult to use this trope in gaming.


Tarantula wrote:
decanterdecanterdecanter

Yes, that's the best option. I think at this point we're just stretching our creativity muscles by asking the question, "Well what else is there if the DM nixes a Decanter because reasons?"

As for ice, while I think murderhobos are A-okay with destabilizing markets and irrigating vast farms, selling ice for a sun-burned city-state to consume as a luxury is definitely an option as well. Probably easier to just manufacture the ice directly with Rays of Frost and/or a cold-damage dealing weapon, though.

Attracting the ire of a water cartel is what we call, "setting out bait for your assassin trap."


Level-inappropriate encounters are generally either cut scenes or a DM screw-up, so it's a 50/50 prediction.

No, I tell a lie, sometimes it's both a cut scene AND a DM screw-up. Don't give a disrupting weapon to the kamikaze halfling barbarian and then have a lich do his Evil-guy speech. He will find a way to make the fastball special.

Lune wrote:

Hm. You share a similar name to my GM. ... I think you are trolling me. ;)

The archer (and my character) did just change religions. We are now worshiping an ancient goddess that was recently rediscovered. Diana. Basically the setting here is that ancient Golarion is actually Earth.

Anyway, perhaps this new goddess shall smile upon him. I'll bring it up as a possibility. Tongue and cheek at first but I will gauge his reaction and if he seems open I will push it on him. ;)

Is Diana a warrior princess?


DrDeth wrote:
boring7 wrote:


Or, you know, power is all relative, they still could have just ridden giant eagles if the narrative hadn't demanded an epic journey of epicness,
No. This meme keeps coming up, but it's completely wrong. The Eye and Will of Sauron would stop the Eagles and the Nazgul would make short work of them.

Meh, it's no different than hoping a band of murderhobos won't get noticed on their overland trek (they were spotted a couple of times, I recall) or saying The Eye and Will of Sauron wouldn't re-direct an attempted teleport spell just as easily as he could shoot down Eagle Airlines.

They didn't use the eagles because reasons which were post-processing excuses to keep the plot on the rails. And let me be clear there is NOTHING wrong with that. That is how you write a story and it was a good story. But the eagles aren't functionally different from teleportation, flight magic, or Dr. Cid showing up in his just-repaired airship.


I thought our dudebro snakes and milking drow was fun...


The rest of the party is level 5, he's level 1 (warrior/expert) and level 4 (any), with the stat mods and abilities listed in the link in the first post.

Unless I'm misreading something.

Even if it's 1/3 the +4 con and +5 natural armor will outstrip the "negative" of losing 2 hit dice by or before level 8. It makes Full Caster a poor choice (also the -2 to all mental stats is a problem) but a caster who uses his magic to augment Martial prowess or skills doesn't NEED a very high DC or caster level to git'r done.

And it should go without saying, martial or skill-monkey are just fine already.


Lune wrote:

boring7: I bet the Dutchess' manor is where we are headed. That sounds like it is likely the large building at the center of town and as none of us are familiar with the place that seems like the most likely place for us to go to start.

While the Scarred Witch-Doctor is a strong class it doesn't fit the concept of what my character is going for at all and doesn't really fill the role of a tank (even with the high HP) which is what my party needs out of me. But you are right, we truly need to compare notes more about who needs to cover what for healing. I have plans for this. ...it may involve murdering his character and feeding it to his Quasit and blaming the whole thing on the Quasit. Or perhaps something slightly more constructive.

I meant you be the cleric and an actual healer because witch-player is incompetent. Witch player becomes a scarred witch doctor which is better at wandering into combat like a foob. I mean I know you like your character, I'm just saying that might be what it comes down to.

As for the town, from what I understand the forest and hills in the surrounding areas are infested with giants and trolls. But that was before the cataclysm and after(?) some adventure path did a bunch of work fighting those same giantoids. Did you bring your ogre-slaying knife?


Zardnaar wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:


David Eddings has a handful of spell casters, even Magician by Feist spell casters are rare and cannot easily do what D&D wizards pull off. Wheel of Time magic is rare.

Frequency of spellcasters in the general population is not a good indicator of "high" or "low" magic, and in fact, is one of the traps that a lot of people trying to run a low magic game run into. It doesn't matter if only seven people in the entire world are spellcasters if one of those seven people are part of the adventuring party -- and, in fact, I think I just described the Fellowship of the Ring.

What you end up with instead is a party that has spellcasters (because that's what people want to play) in a world that doesn't (because that's what the GM wants to run), and the result is that the spellcasters are even more dominant than they would otherwise be,... or the GM has to nerf the spellcasters into the ground to prevent them from taking over the universe with simple low-level spells like charm person, invisibility, and levitate.

The power level of LoTR is also lower than D&D though. They did not teleport to mount doom and throw the ring in.

It's also way higher, there is no way for a pathfinder wizard to control weather from hundreds of miles away.

Or, you know, power is all relative, they still could have just ridden giant eagles if the narrative hadn't demanded an epic journey of epicness, and teleportation isn't so much "powerful" as "ruins certain kinds of quests."

I mean, if Lord of the Rings had been about FINDING the ring by searching tombs, chasing clues, and racing against the Dark Lord's Sneaky Minions™; being able to teleport would not have been a problem OR particularly helpful. But that wasn't the story.


You're leaving things AWFULLY open-ended. Let's see what springs from the dark well of my mind.

Expert leading into Vivisectionist alchemist, mixed in with levels (going for fighter/thief paradigm with a little extra magic) of ranger (not sure on the archetype).

You aren't the best caster, in fact you're pretty crap at it, but you didn't become an alchemist for power, you did it because of what you are. As a living creature steeped in the elements of earth and stone you learned at an early age how fragile the more squishy, "normal" creatures of the world were. This led to study and analysis of a somewhat obsessive-compulsive nature into what life was, and what KINDS of life there were. You love dissections, anatomy, analysis; and you do it whenever you have a chance. You have a code of ethics (lawful), and you aren't EVIL per se (Neutral), you're just creepy as all hell when you get that look in your eye and unroll your kit of saws, hooks, hemostats and scalpels because the creature in front of you is dead and no one has claim to the body.

When not engaging in your intellectual hobby, you make a skillful brute and play well with others as long as they can tolerate your creepy habits. You have been known to work as both a guard and a surgeon, and (if you take an animal companion) you tame a Raven, who seems to have the same morbid demeanor as you do.

Skills include Heal, Survival, Craft (alchemy), and disguise.

Edit: Also I don't know what Trollblood or Jotunbrud are and couldn't find them in a cursory search.

Another option: In your youth your tribe was enslaved and experimented upon by an evil lich. It was not until a sacred liberator of (god of freedom and stuff) struck down this unholy master that you knew the joy of a life outside of chains. Now a follower of (Cayden?) yourself, you aren't the brightest student or the strongest spellcaster, but you strike blows for freedom and take a trophy ear from every slaver you kill. Start warrior then pure battle-cleric build, wield a spiked shield as your weapon.


Hm? Well I'll go from a story perspective first...

Milking a snake is not an enjoyable or comfortable process. You grab its head, force its mouth open, and jam its fangs into something hard, pressing down on its head uncomfortably. It will not enjoy this. But it is your familiar, it is smart, it can probably be convinced to bite a poison-catching basin on it's own. It might even LIKE biting things, nature tends to make survival-important acts (like sinking your fangs in and squirting poison) pleasurable.

Poison decays. Along with being a complex chemical structure prone to breaking down, it can dry up. Research real-life snake venom and see how long it lasts to figure out how effective it is.

Proper use of poison, even if you're immune, is helped by having the chemisty knowledge to distill it, thicken it, and/or figure out if it's gone bad.

and finally, going after your familiar's poison as "a plague upon the earth" doesn't really make a lot of sense. It isn't a disease, it doesn't spread, it might help individual attacks, but that fits more as, "my animal friend helps me, ha-ha!" than any sort of, "haha! This will help balance the forces of life and death by...maybe helping kill you...random dude I was killing anyway." *suddenly self-aware expression*

RAWs-wise? Every attempt to get your snake to dump a dose of poison has a chance of failure, it can make infinite attempts in a day (but asking the DM to let you will result in a smack upside the head) and there is nothing stating it IS a viable option, thus nothing obligating the DM to let you succeed.


Cure Disease, Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse, and Break enchantment all take caster-level checks anyway. You really want a proper caster to deliver those when possible.

I mean, obviously it's better a scroll than nothing...

On the bright side, if you DO get a scroll of remove blindness, the witch learns it by feeding the scroll to her familiar (it's a whole thing). Honestly though, you and your witch should just re-roll as a cleric and a half-orc Scarred Witch-doctor. You'll probably both be happier.

Edit: I looked up Turtleback Ferry, its population before the flood(s) was 450, so its resources will be limited, but you might get lucky with a potion in the Duchess' manor or the flooded general store's secret stash. Assuming there IS a secret stash and assuming it hasn't been raided by other murderhobos.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The goal is to profiteer off of water. We've already gone through the city to have a permit to sell. Currently it's just limited temporary water, but if we could get larger permanent volumes of water then we can sell more and at a higher price. But this is a side-story to our main plot, so that's why I can't really use any option that takes a lot of time.

Hirelings are surprisingly cheap. Find an expert (buy one at the slave market if necessary) study and scan him to make sure he won't be a problem later, maybe drag him along on an adventure to level him up, then put him in charge of using a long-term solution (decanter) to make long-term profits. Have him slowly take over the city by expanding into farming (he can irrigate), trade, etc.

Freed slaves given middle-man positions of power are often loyal...


You can be anything as long as you make sure you get arms, including a quadruped that grows arms (maybe like a centaur) or a serpent that ends up looking like a naga. The arms evolution is like 2 points.

Your feats apply.

You can breathe underwater.

It might help to think of the eidolon as power armor. Another point to be aware of is that other people cannot heal your eidolon because its HP count as bonus hit points, and your Base Attack Bonus does not stack with its base attack bonus. The rules for synthesist are complicated, and receive little publisher support because it's a big hassle of cheese, power-balance problems, and confusion. It is also crazy useful to multiclass with non-caster classes because it lets you completely replace physical stats you probably dumped.


Attilles wrote:
Ok I got some clarification from the GM, this is not an egg, it will be a live birth. As for playing as the the new demigod dragon becoming a demigod would be a downgrade for me. I'm that awesome.

Only temporarily, 1st level demigods have potential.

But really, at 14th level you should have access to some plan B, C, and D options involving resurrection services, regeneration spells, and/or outsiders with access to Wish. Cut a deal with an Efreeti, word your request VERY carefully, and have a minion ready to deal with complications (like breaking your neck so you can't feel the pain).

Of course it's also possible your soul will be devoured/merged with the demigod baby, that's where the whole "I wanna play my own monster baby" and "I am faithful, my life for Tiamat" come in.


Chess Pwn wrote:
They ship their water in from the sounds of it. They needed a port for this ocean and it surrounded by desert and there's not a potable water source around. So they port all their water in. That's why selling it is profitable.

There is no possible way that would be sustainable, people drink to much waterYeah, even if they have wells, a river, or a pipeline water would be rationed and expensive. California has severe drought problems often and they aren't the Arabian Peninsula. Like salt or food, you're looking to out-supply current dealers and undercut their prices, or simply expand the market (more water means more potential irrigation).

And yeah, Decanter of Endless Water filling up an underground cistern you dug (you want a cistern, it gives you wiggle-room) is your simple answer, deal-bound Water elemental is a more interesting answer, and in either case it's a potential plot hook if it gets stolen or broken. Then you have 150 days to get a new water chipa limited amount of time to find the stolen decanter/elemental bowl and save the city.


Tarantula wrote:
Somehow, buying a 9,000gp decanter seems a lot easier than mind controlling a purple worm to dig tunnels, then grinding out some giant lenses and hiring people to regularly clean out the tunnels.

Oh it's absolutely easier.

At the very least it is easier on the front end and maybe harder on the back end.

If you operate on the assumption that magic is untrustworthy/unreliable (Mystra dies a lot and long-running artifacts get stolen/demon-corrupted) the city might want less magic in their solution. Perhaps I am being paranoid. This is another reason Gates are suboptimal, too. There's a certain formerly-flying city in a Golarion Jungle (Mwangi expanse?) that used to use the elemental plane of water as it's cistern, there is now a colony of Marids ruling that section of the ruin.

I also tend to assume you will be selling the water source to the state, unless you plan on being the king yourself, he'll want it to secure his own power. And who wants to be tied down like that? Murderhobo 4 lyfe.

Also, theoretically only the silos would really need to be cleaned out. The underwater tunnel itself would be like an underground river. But like I said it's just a (pun incoming!) pipe dream of terraforming technology I've been toying with.


For geography, think Dubai, it's on the coast but super-hot desert.

Funnily enough I've been recently imagining (semi-ludicous) terraforming efforts in that part of the world. The UAE uses 53,504 million imperial gallons (with a population of ~9.5 million. That's a lotta water. But first let's talk magic:

-Decanter of Endless Water; with no limit and a low (relatively) price you can dig out a cistern, cover it with stone (use Wall of stone and stone shape) and have a supply, turned on full blast it will give you *does the math* ~158 million gallons of water a year...huh.

Well the UAE has a much larger population than your single desert trade metropolis, Assuming a metropolis it's probably 30 thousand people in the city and another 15 thousand close enough to be a part of the market share, you're good.

-Gate: You can't make a permanent gate directly to the Elemental Plane of water, but you can make a permanent demiplane that does. Not only that, the demiplane can produce its OWN water, presumably, though the Dm has plenty of license to mess with that.

-Magic Desalination: This was covered above.

But finally, the solution I was thinking that requires no direct magic is this: With the help of a burrowing creature (say a trained or mind-controlled Bulette or Purple Worm, or shapeshifting) you dig a tunnel from a few miles back to the ocean. The tunneling process will be a hassle, since there aren't many rules for it, but you should be able to work something out with Walls of Stone or transmute mud to rock. Once you have your big pipeline to the ocean (hope you brought Air Bubble spells) you tap it to fill multiple underground silos. Each silo is lined with black rock and capped with a large lens-shaped dome that directs the maximum amount of sunlight down into the water and the black rock.

Light becomes heat, heat vaporizes water, water vapor is either collected and channeled into the cistern or vented into the atmosphere to increase average humidity (and therefore increase average rainfall, decrease average temperature, and make the place nicer to live).

You'll be building/digging a lot of those water silos, and you'll need squads of dudes to go in at night and scrape away the salt build-up on the walls, but salt is still a trade good too, so it should mitigate the cost if not pay for itself. Best of all since none of it requires continuous magic you can leave it in the hands of no-class-level-having experts and commoners and it will keep working when you wandered off to have extra-planar adventures.

Or maybe not, this design is entirely theoretical from my ignorant imagination.

Also, this plan doesn't require level 7+ spells.


Brew potion requires you actually have the spell.

*looks up Shining Child*

Yep, you're boned.

There is technically nothing I can see stopping you from doing the Aasimar (or random celestial petitioner) cleric trick. It's all up to the DM's twisted mind as to what the price is, though.

Currently reading the Harrow Deck, delightfully worse than the Deck of Many things. I recommend pulling 6 cards when you're in such dire straits that it's pull a miracle or retire your character, that way it doesn't sting so bad when it goes terrible.


Malwing wrote:


I've done a setting that was cut off from the divine realms and there were no divine casters at all. Which basically just made witches the primary healers. It really changed the feel of things though.

Anyways! Along the same lines I've toyed with the idea of doing a setting where there are no casters at all available to the PCs. Just Barbarians, Cavaliers, Monks, Fighters, Skirmisher Rangers, Rogues, Brawlers, Slayers, Swashbucklers, and maybe Gunslingers. Not really sure how that would work though. As there'd be no magic healing and pretty much all magic items would be like artifices.

I've thought of doing this after getting a third party product that allowed the Heal skill to be used to perform surgery to remove ability damage and craft alchemy to make fast healing salves.

That would actually solve a lot of complaints, including "rogues are desperately overshadowed".


In my Iron Gods campaign the party face is actually some brand of Ranger, though I am not sure which archetype (if any). He doesn't have an animal companion currently, but that doesn't mean anything.


Rules as written, you can have both archetypes but Tea Ceremony simply won't WORK, because what you have is Archaeologists' luck, so you have no bardic performances to perform.

House-ruling a crossover seems like a fairly obvious and acceptable choice, though, and unless this is PFS or something it shouldn't be a problem.

For the record, hero lab says it all works, which is usually good enough for me.


Wiggz wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
Basically low magic campaigns tend to be more story-driven, which is what many role-players are looking for...
Well duh. There's so little to your character mechanically that you HAVE to buff the story to have enough to talk about.
I fully understand that that is the mentality that video-gamers bring into RPG's with them, and there's no such thing as 'badwrongfun'... but for many, the story is the entire point of playing, not the thing they have to begrudgingly fall back on by default when their character isn't 'teh uber' enough.

I find having "teh uber" abilities *enhances* my story development. Instead of constantly closing doors to character interactions or failing to find any clues to the mystery. I can use some creative magic to repair widow Secretwisdom's roof, use my unparalleled skill in combat to assist the sheriff in ending a large tavern brawl, or use my skills as a sneak-thief to spy on the suspected serial killer and discover he is running an underground railroad that needs assistance. Moreover, when I'm out delving the dungeon I can do more than, "walk through 2 or 3 rooms, see one half of a plot hook, then turn back because I'm out of spells/hit points."

Which is another point I find myself revisiting. Even the sorceror, who is supposed to lack any versatility but have endless reserves of energy runs out of magic fast. A wizard apprentice on an adventurer can do his 1 or 2 tricks (usually telekinesis of some brand) all day, and while he suffers fatigue it's the same as the fatigue a swordsman feels from fighting all day. A pathfinder "phenomenally skilled apprentice" runs outta juice around the 6 minute mark.

4th edition managed that effect, with wizards who could throw their little flame bolt forever, yet somehow the whole thing felt even more like playing Gauntlet.

Warrior needs food, badly.


gamer-printer wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Sorry, physics and the history of weapons don't back you up.
Actually it has to do with neither, rather the supernatural folklore surrounding vampires, includes among other things staking a vampire through the heart with a wooden stake. One could argue using an iron stake would be more physically possible, according vampire legend only a wooden stake does the trick. Its got nothing to do with physics or the history of weapons, and only to do with vampire legend.

Which, until the mid-90s, involved a hammer. That was my point. The physics question is simply to dismiss any illusion that "realism" will support the would-be Slayer when trying to argue in favor of a house-rule.

You can roll "made of Plasticine" trope if you want, but there is no logical or rhetorical reason compelling anyone ELSE to be so obliged, unless they wish it.

As for called shots...it's one of those tempting and distantly-desired ideas that has great difficulty when you try to implement it. It is SO easy to end up with rules that can perma-screw a character or anti-climax what was supposed to be a really epic fight. Or the rules are so vague and watered-down there's a question why you bothered, in way Vital Strike is a "called shot" (turn your attack into a critical hit) but darned if anyone actually likes it.

Torger Miltenberger wrote:
and to bring it back to pathfinder, the game does not state that they have to be in their coffin to be staked, it does however state that they must be helpless, and that for me is where it stumbles.

I'm pretty sure that's a LITTLE Bram Stoker's and a LOT "We don't like insta-kill attacks taking out our badass high-level NPC vampires." Most save-or-die spells are already the stuff of editions past (no comments on if that's good/bad, please) and having a non-removable self-destruct button on what is ostensibly a more powerful and dangerous foe is poor planning for game rules. Unless you WANT Vampires to be the new Zombies (i.e. easily-dispatched "loser/mook" monsters).

And maybe you do, I recall Bas-lag vampires were portrayed as basically being the meth-addict junkies that "real" undead crime-lords used to do their scut-work. Stupid, expendable, easily-dominated, and not worthy of any respect at all. But that's not how pathfinder does 'em, any more than it lets a pack of 20 goblins make called shots to the eyes of your level 7 barbarian, permanently blinding him unless he has access to remove blindness and enough eyeball left for the spell to repair.


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Ruanek wrote:
So are you not benefiting from being a noble versus a normal Drow? Or are you just trying to hide your more powerfulness behind a mask of never having to use it? (In either case, why not just be a normal Drow and not have the issue at all?)

Sense of interest in backstory.

'Cuz I wanted levitate and arcane vision as at-will abilities instead of "use once per day then experience buyer's remorse."

Better SR. (SR is over-charged anyway)

Take your pick.


Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
boring7 wrote:
The underlying problem y'all are hitting is the difference between a narrative and a game.
I think the underlying problem is actually the broad term of "magic". You're making a hasty generalization, by assuming that these outliers describe the general tone of the settings.

I'm really not, most of the stuff I listed is as common as high-level adventurers. Moreover the outliers ARE the setting, alternatively Pathfinder's "setting" is its adventuring party of "outliers". That was kind of my point; power isn't always power.

There are plenty of fantasy settings where earth-shaking magic exists, but it's always only accessible as the plot demands. You've got roman aqueductsa magical fountain that produces clean water, hadrian's walla giant wall of ice that no one knows how to repair/replace, a magic life tree that changes the weather patterns, a healer who can cure ANY malady but can't leave her magic cave or fix her own eyes, or a magic herb that fixes most maladies. But replanting the tree somewhere safer, studying and copying the magic fountain, understanding how the magic healing works (or even WHY it's stuck in that cave), or teaching other people to use the magic herb that grows like a weed everywhere just doesn't happen because the plot demands it.

It's part of the same paradigm as the saying, "if you give it stats, players will figure out a way to kill it." If you establish rules and give the characters the narrative freedom to do whatever they want within them, power becomes a far more complicated equation.

To look at it from another direction consider range: A city-swallowing earthquake, a necromantic ritual that kills an entire country, a hellfire missile, or a boom spell that can travel less than half a kilometer and burns almost everything in a 12 meter radius. The last one is top-end, earth-shaking magic for Pathfinder, all the other ones are way outside of PF but pretty normal "big stuff" for endgame of normal fantasy narrative. And there is time to consider. In pathfinder a spell that takes longer than 6 seconds is kinda weird, in standard fantasy most rituals and magic take a few hours to complete, and the bigger stuff can take lifetimes.

And in case I didn't hammer it enough, a Pathfinder caster or magic-spewing macguffin runs out of magic "juice" in 10 minutes of dedicated casting. A standard fantasy has the witch or warlock throwing low-level magic all day and all night without running out.


First, use Heal skill to determine if the blindness is permanent. Second, if it is, get used to being blind for a while.

Summon 4 won't work, even if your witch can call up good-aligned critters (they won't like her) none of 'em have remove blindness.

Remove Blindness is a level 3 spell for alchemist, (he's 1 level short) and your witch, eeeh...no one should be obligated to play a role or obsessively optimize, but being flat-out useless is a problem.

It would be a severe stretch, but you could see if anybody has darkvision to act as magical prosthesis.


Pendagast wrote:
long-winded "nuh-uh" with unrelated personal accounts

Sorry, physics and the history of weapons don't back you up.

Actually, on the subject, would an iron breastplate render a vampire immune to the called shot, since realistically there ain't no way your WOODEN stake is punching through an iron breastplate?

Pendagast wrote:
in the cases of characters like buffy one handing the stake into vampires, if you are aware of the buffy universe, yes…she is very much physically amplified over a standard human, It's inherited mystical power, so she is supernaturally empowered (as is faith and other slayers from the TV show)

Except all the non-slayer "baseline human sidekicks" that aren't even on Junior Varsity Sportsball but still manage to do it.

Pendagast wrote:

The 'Hammer the stake in" approach comes from 1800-early 1900s depictions.

The typical moderately physical human male combatant these days would be a giant among those men.

"People whose lives much more physical lives were weaker and less strong than normal high school students today." I get that you want to make a point about maybe the scholar Van Helsing was not a body-building soldier but you are still overstating things severely.

Pendagast wrote:

Factor in the standard vampire tropes of being killed/incapacitated by things don't don't even remotely harm a normal human (silver, running water, garlic, holy symbols/holy water, sunlight) and the fact that being staked is ALSO listed among these vampire weaknesses and one can easily summate, a vampire is weaker than a normal human when it comes to any and all of these things.

Why? because THESE are his weaknesses, compared to things listed as his strengths, like super speed, strength etc.because my arbitrarily-decided headcanon says so.

Which is fine, if you're the one making the rules. But it is also fine if someone else makes different rules.

Pendagast wrote:
passive-aggression

When you're done being spiteful, I'll be happy to discuss worthwhile topics.


Ruanek wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Personally, I'm rolling a Drow noble, keeping in the back doing support, I don't know if ANY of the other players have figured out what I am (sank a lotta points into a good disguise check) and we all seem to be having fun. For the record, my character is a Drow Noble, raised from infancy by an eccentric Bronze dragon, and I'm an archer (light crossbow) cleric. It's pretty much as BadWrongFun as you ever could get.
I'd be cautious of this approach. If you really want to be a Drow noble you should allow your party to know. Otherwise you're basically secretly making yourself more powerful than the rest of the party. At the very least the party should be aware of the OP character so they can react accordingly (in and out of character).

That's why, like I said, I stay in the back and play support. Let the barbarian rack up the kills, and if he ever gets back let the party leader/face (a Fetchling, oddly enough) do the leading and the talking.

Not to mention he's the one that knows technology. I'm playing "out of her element and along for the ride" magic person in a world of Iron Gods and Alien Technology.

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