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678 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Darkholme wrote:
What Fantasy JRPGs don't have is offensive Polymorph Effects that last forever, Characters creating their own demiplanes and manipulating reality and time there, summoning demons or angels to aid them on quests for long periods of time, players raising platoons of demons or undead (using class abilities, not GM plot), or "City Nuke" shenanigans. Even routine access to personal flight is usually quite limited (you see hover effects fairly often). From the player's capabilities in a JRPG, other than the numbers (which allow RPG characters to eventually take on creatures that in D&D are up to CR20); they don't get effects beyond 4th level wizard spells, and don't even get full access to spells up to 4th.

Yes they are, yes they do, yes they do, etc. Airships, demiplanes, summoned angels, all that kind of stuff shows up in the PCs hands. Further, they fight robots and giant plant monsters and enormous dinosaur-demon things by the first third of the game, things which register as CR 10 or better when you face a version in Pathfinder. Power-wise, it's a completely different animal with the JRPG being higher. The only things they don't have are effects that operate off-the-rails or outside the box. JRPG character with her demiplane uses it to heal folks, and one time lets 'em hide out in it when the city gets nuked or whatever. This isn't "higher power" when a PF character does it, it's just another function of PF having more options (because it isn't basically a novel) and letting you use lateral thinking to get around problems you would otherwise have to plow through.

And once again, you're talking A DRAGON, the critter that's supposed to be the end boss (traditionally speaking). JRPGs do that stuff all the time, D&D that's like taking ECL +18 (remember, it's different than CR for PCs, for good reason) and stacking on 10 levels of fighter.

Darkholme wrote:
An Actual Large-Size Green Dragon is only CR 8; which is a far cry from CR 20; though actual dragon stats are not particularly relevant.

They are very relevant. Giving the fighter natural reach and stackable natural armor is a big deal. It's why CR 1 critters were listed as ECL +3 (give or take) back when they still did ECL.

Darkholme wrote:
What I'm Describing isn't "Dragon Statblock + Martial Stuff". What I'm describing is Martial Character + "Miscellaneous Variety of Short-Term Dragon-Themed Metamorphosis Buff Effects...

That's very different from what you first described AND what you were dismissing previous builds over. I mean, what abilities do you want? And how much are you willing to sacrifice to get them? Ryu usually was one of the weaker fighters of his little gang, he just had the trump card superpower he could whip out.

Start as a half-dragon, run some Mutation Warrior, fake the other abilities with a few sorceror spells.

Or go Beastmorph alchemist, rolling into Master Chymist (which straight-up has a "dragon morph" mutagen) for a total +17 BAB at level 20. You are "Dragon" subtype, (because half-dragon) and you get most of the abilities. You may not have a fear aura, though there are ways to fake that too if you hunt around for 'em.

"It's not perfect!" you say? Well you're asking for a cross-genre bit of power creep with a very specific focus and very specific magical abilities. We fake it. What you REALLY want is a custom class of fighter that trades a bunch of fighter abilities for a very specific spell-like ability. Nothing wrong with such a homebrewing, but in lieu of that bit of hard-to-balance creativity, the above gets pretty close. It still won't be BoF dragons, since the dragons are just plain different in Pathfinder, and how much variety you get in your transformations depends on how much "martial" you want to sacrifice (and if memory serves Ryu often didn't get a lot of variety in his draconic abilities).

And you can be Grey Mouser just fine, the problem is Grey Mouser had the glorious magic of "author fiat" making his d20 rolls for him. Same issue as Sherlock Holmes, really.

Yeah, summoning is beautiful and wonderful and powerful, right up until the rest of the party beats you to death because every combat turn takes you 5 minutes to move and adjust your huge army.

Synth Summoner (focused on defense with a few extras like flight) with your shadow-sorceror. Flavor-wise you have your Eidolon literally be your shadow, rising up and wrapping around you as living armor. You summon up monsters and illusions that are quasi-real from the darkness, blast your enemies to bits, and you call yourself Jackie Estacado because ohnoitsgonetoometa.



Amusingly, their skill bonuses are exactly the same, since tumble and balance are both part of Acrobatics.

You can't play with the possibility of losing and always win.

I'm actually rather surprised that there aren't any floating around from previous editions...but they certainly don't show up on a google search.

Well, there was a homebrew "anarch" race, but it's dreadfully underpowered.

Theoretically the tables are supposed to gel. I assume in practice they do not? Presuming they do not, go Dragon first, then increase size with damage table.

The difference in effort is minor (look at two tables instead of one) and the difference in damage is going to be, at the absolute worst I can think of, 2.5 points of average damage.

Flavor-wise, I rationalize it as a dragon not being "naturally" larger like a normal dragon, and thus not necessarily the same proportions as a dragon that was simply older.

Darkholme wrote:


Breath of Fire:
@Boring7: I would consider most of the Fantasy JRPG Videogames to be very close in genre to D&D/Pathfinder; the main difference being that Pathfinder goes to an even Higher Power Level. I was thinking more BoF 4 than 3; Because as you mention, 3 works okay with Synthesist Summoner (other than how difficult it is to change in combat, and the requirement of blood magic to make regularly changing forms be a viable option; and the inability to choose the form you want to take mid-combat and then take that form.

Strongly disagree. JRPG videogames have magic items and spells that blow up planets, Pathfinder gets really impressive if it blows up half a city. Hell, you want to be a middling-sized DRAGON, a critter that starts around effective character power-level of 20, and then start stacking on class levels. JRPG that's no big deal, Pathfinder that's crazy epic level stuff.

Darkholme wrote:
none of those options really fit the "Martial who turns into a variety of kinds of dragons" schtick. Some of them cover martials turning into big brutes without dragon-like abilities of any kind (but not multiple kinds) and some of them cover other parts of the concept but are casters instead of martials.

Caster vs. Martial is largely how you play it. Just, you know, don't cast much besides your buff spells and your after-action heal spells. Different types of dragons are easy with different evolution-buffs to an eidolon or different transformations with your Oracle (if you CAN transform as an oracle? I wasn't clear on that one). As for "can't do it 'till later levels," well that brings us back to the point of power creep and JRPGs. Even in BoF, getting reliable draconic transformations was mid- to late-game material.

Rynjin wrote:
It was pretty buff when it was active from 1st level.

From the sound of things, it's largely depend on on what gear you get. Stack of wands (or staves, for higher levels), each with 5 charges (so they're cheap)? You can solo a +10 level dungeon crawl. Basic gear for a fighter? You're an underpowered fighter.

Compare with the Permanency spell, a 2nd level spell being made permanent costs (generally speaking) 5k gold and requires a 10th level caster.

Of course that would only do levitating up and down. Permanency RAW doesn't work on levitate. While it would affect up to caster level of 20 (2000 pounds) that is not specific. And perhaps most importantly, even mythic augmented levitate is vague on how it works with orientation. Your average levitated archer spends most of her time spinning.

Finally, the concept of permanently controlling a spell feels a bit weird to me in general. Like, you set a permanent levitation, but you would need to tag it with a fresh casting of a spell (or at least be touching it) to "turn it on" and control it for as long as you maintain concentration. Maybe that's just my own sense of arcania talking though.

Anyway, I'd make your spell level 7 (permanency is level 5 after all) and leave the price as is.

To be honest, I wish Wall of Force hadn't been nerfed in the first place, since it would do quite a bit of what your talking about (foundations, construction, etc.) or at least an "improved wall of force" spell had been made at a higher level. but them's the breaks.

Have the player roll a d20, if it's a natural 1 the target wants something sexy, if it's a natural 1 on the follow-up roll it's something disturbing involving tentacles.

And I'm gonna be honest, 90% of the time, with orcish barbarian mooks, it's naked elven slave girls carrying trays of tasty food. They're pretty simple dudes.

Wiggz wrote:
I've probably made at least a hundred solid character builds from level 1-20 (character building is one of my favorite past times) and only once have I ever included gear as part of what makes the character work - a Dex-based goblin fighter who fought unarmed. I get very interested in all the things a character can potentially do, but never get overly ivested in all the things a character can potentially buy. Two separate things, to me at least.

So every single one of them specialized in unarmed combat and had a self-built means of defeating things like DR? Or are you conflating "needs one very specific magic item" with "needs something from a category of magic items to work".

A fighter has taken a host of feats dedicated to being a complete master at fighting with a sword. Then the DM gives him a +7 whip and snicker. This is not good role-playing, this is the DM being a jerk. And no one bats an eye at the fighter expecting his dang magic sword.

Also, funnily enough, nobody is too surprised at the plot twist that has the party stripped of their possessions (very important: temporarily) and having to face role reversals where the Main Battle Tank of a fighter is hiding behind the underpowered monk because he's naked and he never took improved unarmed strike.

The point is; if a player rests his hopes and dreams on a breakable magic item that's his lookout, if you never let him get or repair said magic item that's your lookout.

Every time I look at the topic I see "gestating 9th level caster" and think, "ewww, is this one of those creepy summoners that 'births' it's eidolon?"

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chaoseffect wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Buri wrote:

I hate them. I hate when players say 'I go buy/shopping for/want x' and immediately start marking the GP off their sheet. I hate that magic items are needed by the system.

For Pathfinder I would institute mage's guilds in the larger cities and run it as though they regulate the sale of non-trivial magic items going so far that they sack little town with their local government authority if reports that they're trying to be sold there.

I also hate them, hate them with a passion.

If they want magic items, go earn it, like heroes. Jeez.

I earned all this gold like a hero. Now I want to support my local economy. Like a hero.
Then invest it into the community, and not just a magic shop with an owner likely to store it off this plane for a rainy day.
I never said I was a philanthropist. Those kids need a new playground? Unless they're using that space to learn how to craft me magical items, they ain't getting a copper from me.

If they want money, they need to earn it, like heroes. See also: Bootstraps.

Also, when I go questing for magic items to "earn them, like a hero" all I ever find are +(less than what I got) bracers of armor, Epically enchanted whips (no one plays a bard), 100000 copper pieces, and a thousand beautiful snowglobes.

Note that the above is ACTUAL STUFF that a PUBLISHED ADVENTURE PATH has dropped on me. There were also a lot of Rings of (you're already resistant to this) and poorly-enchanted axes when both martial-wielders were already wielding better.

For some reason I can min-max my abilities during character creation all day and all night, but finagling my equipment (which is an inexorable part of my character) into anything resembling something sensible is monstrous, demanding, whiny, entitled, and bratty.

Darkholme wrote:
A Martial Character (Magus would be the closest fit pre-transformation) who can transform into a variety of large dragons (Breath of Fire Style). I would argue that it currently just *Can't be Done*.

Only played 3 and 4, but 3 was the best (only?) support caster (every walkthrough I ever read claimed you should never bother with draconic transformations, just sit and heal) in the group and transformed into dragon forms if it chose. Synthesist Summoner pretty well captured that. 4 was basically a mutagen warrior (or whatever it was called), who turned into (what looked like) a half-dragon at key moments.

ALSO, it's cross-genre, since BoF was/is a game with animu levels of power creep (which is fun, but a different genre). But that's kind of the point of most of your comments, you want "playing a different-genre character" and "I's da biggest an' da strongest even wif one hand tied behind me back!"

Even Conan used magic crap all the time.

What do you want to do, besides be "a wizard, harry"?

I mean, not to spew "role-play not roll-play" all over your nice clean topic but when gestalting comes into play I have choice paralysis. When I can do EVERYTHING I have trouble deciding to do anything without some sort of "oh that would be fun/cool/amusing to play" character concept as a guiding star.

Off the top of my head, Synthesist Summoner/Scarred Witch Doctor with all your evolutions focused on being hard to kill and more mobile. You become the caster tank who throws down spells like crazy and doesn't afraid of anything. You roll a sort of thing where the mask goes on, your eyes start to glow, and you become a giant magic-flinging monster that flies. Maybe go with a snake base, add hands and some Asian dragon flavor.

You'd be practically unkillable and have no fear of aggro, of course, the whole sliding con score and other synthesist "complications" and "rules questions" would be an issue.

Personally I still love my divine caster/arcane caster which graduates into monk/mystic theurge, since you get "Cast all the spells!" and have the nifty little monk abilities after level 5 or 6 which aid in survival. All favored saves and evasion? Yes please. Sure you have action economy concerns, but that can be solved by constantly casting spells when you MIGHT need them like you have casting tourettes. You can afford it, you're the chosen of the god(dess) of magic. You sweat magical energy.

And while we all know rogue sucks and all that, wizard who can ranged sneak-attack with hurty spells can be nice. Not to mention a fully magicked thief can basically steal anything. Some flavor of bard can replace rogue if you have no use for sneak attack, though ability scores weigh heavily in the choice of class/archetype selection, only so many points to spread around after all. Do it right and you'll be such a good thief you can steal your own class upgrades from your future self AND keep them from your past self's grubby mitts.

I don't even know the insanity of the ACG, so I'm leaving that aside for now.

So, what's most interesting to you? Calling down the thunder? Holding back the night? Having the biggest toolbox? Being harder to kill than a cockroach? Just being so pretty that everyone loves you? Being the most unsettling bastard at the table?

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Hell, proof isn't THAT hard to fake. Sculpt corpse is a pretty cheap spell and a creative alternate clone spell shouldn't be that hard to fabricate with a large budget.

Getting a bluff check high enough, bribe a bunch of powerful outsiders to lie to him in his divinations, you could probably do it. It would surely take a mini-campaign (or full one) worth of gathering materials, threatening/bribing the right forces, and so on...

And then the question of what happens when the Harlot Queen becomes number one instead of number one and a half. Lots of material.

On the other hand, I seem to recall an adventure path called "Die Vecna, Die" which was...interesting, to say the least.

wraithstrike wrote:
boring7 wrote:
A more interesting question is, if the rules somehow allowed you to ride the Lich's respawn ability back into the land of the living, could you use that as a poor man's phylactery? It wouldn't be particularly powerful, but it would be amusing.
From a story point of view this is interesting. This is going outside of the rules, but the lich/ghost could use this to keep you alive forever, which seems like a good thing, but then you have the immortality is a curse trope. He might even create a personal curse that enforces the one from the item. He could kill himself at random times, just to mess with you. Dealing with that for eternity would be a terrible thing.


Hmm, here's a thought: You have your standard kingdom of light™ ruled by a wise and just paladin/champion type. He's chosen by the gods, totally cool, and so awesome he comes back from the dead. His counterpart is the standard evil death lord who keeps getting chased and defeated by the Lord of Light but keeps coming back. Problem is, champion-boy is getting old. His skills are fading, his stats are fading, and he's getting tired of living and fighting.

Enter standard campaign, up-and-coming adventurers prove themselves, get a royal sponsorship, foil pieces of the Lord of Darkness' evil plans and crawl up the level ladder to the halfway or 2/3rds mark and discover, dramatic plot twist, that the Lord of light and Lord of darkness are soul-bound to one another. His miraculous resurrections are because the Lord of Darkness doesn't want a different king or a different champion of the gods, he wants THIS one, with his lack of imagination and his decaying body and spirit, because as the king weakens but never truly dies the Lich dude starts winning.

From there you can branch, maybe the King just needs to die, maybe the king has the secret shame of almost destroying the lich's phylactery but faltering (to his shame) in the face of his own mortality. Maybe the king is too shamed to ever try again, or maybe he's still afraid of death.

And the question of what happens when the champion of light falls arises. All sorts of plays and tropes you can tinker with.

Degoon Squad wrote:
A brownie can earn merit badges and grow into a girl scout.


Sorry, it was taht or a girl scout mafia joke.

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Really, no RPG (or cooperative game in general) handles massive power disparities between characters very well, because that's the nature of cooperative gaming. In a cooperative game, everyone wants to feel like they're making a roughly equal and valuable contribution. The balance sheet doesn't have to turn out completely perfect, but it should be at a place where everyone's important and useful.

In fiction, it's okay to have a character be the useless damsel in distress who must constantly be rescued by others, or the idiot who always makes the wrong decision that screws over the group. In a cooperative game, nobody wants to play that character.

Granted, the power disparity issue is magnified in Pathfinder/D&D because of how extreme the power curve is as characters level up, compared to a lot of other RPGs.

Arguably, Natasha is just as powerful, but specialized in charisma and infiltration skills. Spymaster rogue vs. amped-up paladin.

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Tacticslion wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Morgen wrote:

Some kind of base of operations would be a good idea. Perhaps on another plane of reality as you know that sounds 18th level-ish. Properly staffed of course as well.

I might also suggest a Clone spell precast for you and all your followers just as a precaution plus the laboratory and a few back up items just in case.

Demiplanes are usually best. And arguably you can stick a permanent gate to it in your awesome 60k gold airship you use to get around in style.
Screw the airship. I'll be getting me one of THESE, the better to lord over my kingdom below (on my private demiplane of course).
Why not make them both the same thing? You say "potato", I say "tiny godlike humonculus..."

Hell, the way I do airships they ARE the same thing. Animated Object flying boat may be slow, but it is dependable, and I think there are ways to amp up its speed a bit.

And you can link it to the Prime material Kingdom (and your Tavern) easily enough.

But that's all "riding in style", for matters of kicking in doors, fighting monsters, and searching rooms a few scrolls of the really good but really situational (and thus often not taken by an Oracle) spells are a good idea. True Seeing, Stoneskin, Restoration, all spring to mind.

Also air supplies are often a good thing to have. "Couldn't enter the dungeon because no one had water breathing" or "asphyxiated because of a vacuum" are rather ignominious ends.

Not to mention you can use that to insert as much or as little RP and flavor as you want into the item creation.

I remember the crazed gnomish inventor with a thick russian accent (his name was Leninslov Little) asking me to help out with the forge because his idiot apprentice had joined an adventuring party. He made me my +1 back-up weapon. I spent 3 days helping him work the forge and listening to him yammer about his kin, arguing with him about his ideas of social justice, and playing poker with his Donkey Rat Familiar which cheated shamefully. You know what I DON'T remember? Where I got my primary weapon, it was some miniboss, but I can't remember if it was under the Sand Kraken's butt or being wielded by orcish miniboss #3 in the halls of blood.

Because the gnome managed to grab my attention, which was as much luck as anything else.

And to be honest, I do prefer to keep things commission-based, since it (among other things) discourages "robbing the shop" and helps explain why players get less than full price for re-selling their loot. The economy for magic items is still big money, so the larger items (relative to the size/economy of the town) don't move as easily.

But sometimes that crap is boring, because I don't care how you doll it up, buying a scroll of stoneskin is not going to be "magical" or "exciting".

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
He also had something for scrying, but I don't remember what it was.

Lead foil.

Okeydoke, how to follow-through with the generally-dull quest of "making magic magical" problem.

First, let the little things go. I love the Ring of Sustenance to death, but it is NOT a major magic item nor should it be. It is a fancy-pants diet for rich people and should be treated as such. An allegory:

Spycraft game, modern setting, two parties doing the same mission at different levels of difficulty and situational planning.

They BOTH need transportation because they are going to fly across the amazon jungle to get to El Jefe's hidden drug lab, destroy his fantasma production, and rescue the agent who discovered it before being captured. Low level party has to pour most of their cash into renting a leaky Vietnam-era chopper that gets them most of the way there. Expensive, but not special. High level party has to call in a minor favor from El Presidente (who they rescued during the UN crisis last season) and get a state-of-the-art Osprey to drop them almost on El Jefe's front step.

Now do the same thing, but with a jeep and the Australian outback. Jeep or humvee, some items are only "lolepic" in the context of a low levels, and some items NEVER are in any context.

Second: Make it an option. A town which by the rules is just barely large and rich enough to have and sell +3 swords probably doesn't have the one your fighter wants just sitting around. And while it is completely within the rules to commission one, that takes over 2 weeks. Have him actually talk to Mr. Underhill the hedge-mage and have Mr. Underhill mention that "well I can get you your sword by the end of the month, if you kick in some extra I can even shave it down to 2 weeks, but if you REALLY want it fast, here's what I really need."

Insert short sidequest for magic crystal, sword takes 2 days to make instead of 2.5 weeks, and player gets what he wants. OR, he chooses to wait, and you let it go because it's a cooperative game you're playing and apparently he doesn't want to do interesting stuff with his magic swordity sword.

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Morgen wrote:

Some kind of base of operations would be a good idea. Perhaps on another plane of reality as you know that sounds 18th level-ish. Properly staffed of course as well.

I might also suggest a Clone spell precast for you and all your followers just as a precaution plus the laboratory and a few back up items just in case.

Demiplanes are usually best. And arguably you can stick a permanent gate to it in your awesome 60k gold airship you use to get around in style.

A permanent demiplane is about 25k for a single chunk (you can combine multiple chunks if you want more space). This can drop to around 500 gold if you can create the demiplane yourself, and presume that you can create a demiplane made entirely of diamond, which you then powderize and use as components for the contracted permanency spell you'll need.

And if you can do the above and you have a wizard cohort of the appropriate level (or Miracle) that price drops to zero.

To take this a step further, you could start Tacticslion's Kingdom, and place the majority of it inside a demiplane, with a fleet of Fabricated (as the spell) ships each carrying a gate to the ultimate in trade cities, looked after by your mighty construct-boosted army and protected by permanent Hallow/dimensional lock spells.

Add in a few Telepathic bonded constructs and major image generators as CCTV and you've got a secure, powerful, insanely profitable futuristic domed city.

Oh wait, you're a natureboy, well I guess you could still do that with beautiful forest arcology of trade and awesomeness.

Eh, most Gundam shows I remember (and admittedly, I don't even know which one was "the original" because there were a lot of gundam serieses out theres) had the kid having "hidden power" and "incredible natural potential" that had him kicking ass from the get-go in ways mere mortals couldn't.

Also, I've played a few high-level one-shots. They were a lot of fun.

Crunch-wise, a familiar's power is action economy and delivering touch spells.

With hands, a brownie can use wands, (may need Use Magic Device). And it has some spell-like abilities of vague uses, and if you or it have disable device they can actually manipulate a lockpick.

Flavor-wise they're cute and you can put on a little hand-puppet and talk through him, which is amusing.

Should you die, your target dies, suffering the same apparent injuries and symptoms; likewise, you die if your target dies. The link may only be severed by break enchantment or remove curse.

Undead are already dead. It doesn't say much about "be destroyed". A technicality, perhaps, but this is ALL ABOUT the technicalities. It isn't that hard to make an argument it just doesn't work on an undead.

Ignoring that, Wraithstrike covered all the ways your example targets just "bounce back" from getting kacked and even a living person can be resurrected. A more interesting question is, if the rules somehow allowed you to ride the Lich's respawn ability back into the land of the living, could you use that as a poor man's phylactery? It wouldn't be particularly powerful, but it would be amusing.

Since you have literally NO way of being certain it worked or not, you have to cut yourself 20 times, hope the law of averages (which isn't actually a law) means the target rolled a fail, and take the plunge sight-unseen. And after the first two or three times this happened, any decent-level power would have contingencies to instantly scry anyone trying it on them and would be able to strike back while you were still cutting yourself over a photograph like some emokid.

That's all I got so far, but I'm sure there's more.

I could swear there are other "death curse from afar" magic effects/items out there, since it's a fairly common fantasy trope, and most of the time you don't even have to die to fire it off. It's not exactly ideal for PCs or plots, since it makes the whole thing a bit boring, but it works for a villain and a plot.

Have a series of weird mystery murders where a villain is killing people she can control in order to kill people far away that she can't. Throwing down a surprise plot twist where she links herself to multiple important people, possibly including the PCs, and "holds them hostage". Even if the PCs have several Break Enchantments or Remove Curses, they can't get 50 people immediately, and so stopping her without killing her becomes harder.

Funny story: I've actually been finding a lot of value in searching for off-standard spells that do nasty things (besides just HP damage) with failed reflex saves. Seems most high-level monsters soak their reflex as well.

Of course, Icy Prison isn't so useful against freedom of movement...

Damiancrr wrote:

Megaloceros Feats:
Weapon Focus(Gore)
Dazzling Display
Narrow Frame
Intimidating Prowess
Combat Reflexes
In Harm's Way
Combat Expertise
Draconic Defender
(Pending) <- Don't know what I'm going to put for this feat yet.

Items Konoha and Megaloceros Currently Have:
Headband of Alluring Charisma(+6)
Mithral Fullplate of Speed - Megaloceros
Ring of Revelations(Sidestep Secret)
Ring of Revelations(War Sight)
Horseshoes of Zephyr - Megaloceros
Otherworldly Kimono
Bag of Holding(II)
Lesser Extend Metamagic Rod
Amulet of Natural Armor(+1) - Megaloceros
Umbrite Locket w/ Heightened(9th Lvl) Continual Flame Cast Inside
Wayfinder( Amethyst Pyramid Resonance As Quicken Spell...

Let's see...

Uparmor the Amulet to +5, (48k)
Grab a ring of protection +5 (50k), it may have to take up a different slot, since megaloceros don't got fingers.
Page of Spell knowldge of Miracle and Create Greater Demiplane (162k)
2 Runestones of power 9 (324k)

With 5 miracles a day you can stack a +5 inherent bonus on every ability score, and with greater demiplanes you have a retreat where time flows faster.

The remaining cash can be spent on small but useful items and sundries, like 3 wands of cure light (most cost-effective healing you'll find), expensive material components for the expensive spells (True Seeing, for example). You'll probably want to Miracle up some magic weapons and equipment (probably has to stay under 25k per casting) while you're at it.

Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?

If you cast it so it only half-overlaps; or move some trees out of the grove before it goes away then cast Plant Growth on them. Since the
"permanent" growth was separate from the first casting you could argue that it sticks around.

YMMV, but considering you're a druid and casting 2 kind of big spells to copy 1 cheapo magic item I'd allow it.

A few fighter-only feats that don't scale well?

Dipping for the feats because you don't want to be Hulk Smash and Hulk Not Understand First Person.

And Plant Growth works on anything that has gotten past seedling size and would, arguably, expand a Grove of Respite permanently.

Dilvias wrote:

Speaking of perception bias, the one thing that does concern me about hunters with dead companions is Perception. It is really simple to be a perception monster with hunter (both regular and verminous). Wisdom is going to be fairly important for hunters, with a wisdom of at least 14 pretty standard. Half elf hunters running either Hawk or Wasp full time at first level are going to have a +15 to perception trivially. (+4 skill, +2 keen senses, +3 skill focus, +2 wis, +4 competence from animal focus). If they're willing to push it (taking the Alertness feat, a trait for +1 to perception and wis 16), they can hit +19. And if they are not in combat, they will almost certainly have it running by default.

+15 to +19 perception at first level makes most perception challenges for them an auto-success. Heck, that's almost see invisible levels of perception. In a home game you can up the difficulty, but then you run the risk of things that are challenging for the hunter are almost impossible for the regular character.

Well, is that all that different or concerning than min-maxing of any other stripe? Auto-success on perception at a cost of a feat, trait, animal companion, and suboptimal ability score choices seems on par with the silver-tongued ultra-diplomat who can talk the archlich into giving up his plan of murdering the world, which I've seen built on more than one occasion around here.

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Suthainn wrote:
A wand of Cure Light Wounds is 750g, that wand can heal anywhere from 100-450 points of damage, a wand of Infernal Healing costs the same and can potentially heal 500 hps. Beyond second, or maybe third level at worst almost any party should be able to afford at least 1 or 2 of those, which covers pretty much all the healing they should need for an extended period. Fast Healing 1 on one or even all the characters really isn't making a game changing money difference unless your GM is running a very unusual campaign where the characters WBL is vastly reduced for some reason (with normal WBL a first level wand is 6.25% of the average 3rd level parties wealth, totally affordable), or one where the most basic of magic items are unavailable to buy or craft, in which case obviously things will be different but that's outside the bounds of the average game.

WBL is around 50-75% in most games I play, and a lot of the wealth is suboptimal, the axe with flaming in a campaign that fights a LOT of fire creatures; the +1 crossbow for the elven wizard; the ring of fire resistance. And once you use up the wand of CLW, it's gone for good rather than replaced with an equivalent WBL cash reward.

No, I don't know how this keeps happening or how it settles up compared to everyone else.

But that aside, yeah, fast healing 1 isn't that big a deal.

The reason it FEELS like a big deal is because it is so hard to get and because it can change certain rules. Stabilization rolls, for example, don't happen because the party member is auto-healing (1 point of healing is enough to stop the bleeding) and if the martial character is cut off from the healer, his ability to auto-heal over a particularly long and grueling combat can end up changing the really scary battle to a mildly alarming battle.

Statistically, it doesn't change much. But in the field of perception bias it gets pretty big, because "holy heck my dude was 1 point away from dying, the cleric was at the bottom of a pit, and his healing saved him! I will remember this for years!"

I'm not sure how relevant this babbling is, it's late and I sometimes get verbose on sleep deprivation.

Rogues. In 3.5.

I mean I'm just guessing, but dollars-to-donuts it was the fact that rogues are skill-monkeys so they must CLEARLY be equal to (at least) bardic spellcasting, if not cleric spellcasting.

And NOW, since we have a well-established pattern of "you get a total of +4 to skills, at best, with weird and varied limitations" it's just "how things are."

On the flip side, let's do an impromptu poll. If this feat was available, how many characters would you make that would NOT take it? And no cheating by saying "well I have this bard/rogue who..."

Rule of thumb taught to me here on these boards is that if it is a choice that hands-down, everybody and there mother takes, it is probably too good.

I'd probably try and find a way to cram it into all of my characters, so that's one.

Ssalarn wrote:

Fast Healing 1 is going to have very little impact in combat, and out of combat healing in PF is largely a non-issue. It's not difficult to have all the OoC healing you'll ever need by level 3 or so, and it just won't be enough to drastically change anything at levels 1 and 2. I believe that Inner Sea Gods also introduced a pair of boots that give you the functional equivalent of low level fast healing.

The point is, it's a money-saving ability, not a game-changing ability.

With the wealth levels I've been stuck at in almost every game I ever played? A money-saving ability is one HELL of an ability.

Also, I don't know how so many folks game in such a way they aren't starving for spells, even if the cleric ISN'T burning most of his or her juice on healing.

But then that's probably why I find Sorcerer unplayable.

Zhayne wrote:
The 'rogue is overshadowed' ship sailed on day one.


I mean, I'd love if the rogue had a booster, but sometimes you just gotta let it go because dude, it's gone.

This is rather like claiming since there is no sentence saying, "after fired, a gun must be reloaded" you can fire your musket (or crossbow) an infinite number of times. It's in the name, spell-storing. As in it stores a spell, not copies and permanently auto-casts a spell.

Link to the item in question, for posterity.

Hogeyhead wrote:
Ooo clever, I thought of glamored but dismissed it because it just makes different armor, but you have a point. At worst I can make it a haramaki.

Haramaki and four-mirror armor seem like your best bet for "improbably skimpy fantasy armor that works because shut up."

Also, your service to the pregnant b*&%~ queen will see you burned, heretic, etc.

There's a reason that Air Bubble is one of my new favorite spells. It's like water breathing but you don't have to wait until AFTER magical flight.

Use the ghostbusters trope and it's just as effective as a trap. Use the Wraith trope and the ghost will dissipate and reform within a few days at the site/things it is tied to.

Warlord: Cavalier does morale bonuses, mix in a little bard, maybe songhealer. Takes a while to get your armor up with those cast in armor feats, but it's doable.

Or just be an Oracle, they get 3/4 BAB and cast in armor. Reflavor the verbal components and use Reach Spell a lot.

Defender: The Stalwart Defender, a couple of feats like Dragon Defender. Use a reach weapon.

And the Marshall (Mythic path) has abilities that do both of those things. But that's mythic.

Zhangar wrote:
The brain cylinders ARE Paizo; they were originally published in Wake of the Watcher (CC#4).

Yeah (that's why I said "-ish") they're Paizo, but not in the PRD and only in one adventure path and treated kinda weird. This seems to put them below more "regular" sources like the APG, but it's all a bit muddled.

Mostly, I just had to check a different document and realized they *probably* had less play-testing before publish (not to mention less interest in support/errata).

But anyway, you are correct.

Gilfalas wrote:
Spook205 wrote:
The party also came across a few dwarven clerics who had been mi-go brain canistered.

After reading the brain canister writrup I believe the brain is alive. The dwarf it came from is dead but the brain itself still lives. A regenerate spell and some extensive therapy may even save the dwarves.

EXTENSIVE therapy...

The Heal spell actually cures insanity (and by extension, should cure all forms of psychological damage) and is the go-to for every "technician" doctor and healer that realizes being a therapist is really boring and we just wanna solve problems with quick and often brutal solutions.

Murderhobo lyfe *gang symbol*

But I disagree with your assessment, the rules state pretty loudly and proudly the brain-haver is dead and can't do even purely mental actions. I mean, I can dream up characters who are better off (or at least, just fine) as a Headcase, just gotta do the right workarounds for only having purely mental actions to call on.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Also, in the d20pfsrd entry on Elohim I found:

"Organization solitary or horde (1 plus 5–20 animals, magical beasts, and plants of CR 8–10)" . . . but they can only create creatures of up to 4 HD, which doesn't get you CR 8, let alone 10.

Nah, it makes the creatures as children, then they grow up quickly because of time-distortion.

Oh wait, they don't get Greater Demiplane so they can't do that, can they? Nevermind.

Barong wrote:
cheechako wrote:
Barong wrote:
I don't know, but reading this I find it pretty offensive. Could one of the creators shed some light on if this was intentional?
Serious question - with all the real-world mythos and lore (including world religions) that D&D and PF has drawn from, why is a creature based on space-aliens especially offensive?
Elohim is a name used for god. It's like slapping the name 'Jesus' on a monster that is made up of man-eating daisies.

The fact that we don't give a flying fark about the Titans, statted-up gods and demigods, and spiritual paths of other religions leaves us not particularly receptive to the idea that christian iconography is taboo. A lot of us are fairly secular around here and don't care.

But let's assume Abrahamics deserve extra special consideration; Elohim (literally "sons of El") are the children of El and Asherah (God's wife from back before Judaism came to be/became monotheistic) and were gods of a polytheistic Canaanite religion. They were kinda-sorta adopted into Judaism as a few more faces of the same One True God™ and then tabled with the "you can't say god's name," prohibition. This is how you DO polytheism-to-monotheism, the "all false gods are demons" part comes after you have enough converts to start making war on the infidel. And after you get people to stop using the names of their old family and tribal gods.

Of course, as cheechako so kindly pointed out, they're actually aliens from the Raelian cult. So if you're going to get angry, get angry at the real-world cult, not the people making fun of them for using them as a bunch of sociopathic, morally questionable god-children playing with reality and being weaker than a proper archangel, let alone a real god.

here's that link again.

It's also different than using jesus because it's a really obscure name, like seriously.

But feel free to get angry at whatever you want, this is a free country after all.

Fluff (which may or may not beat crunch) says you also have to destroy or offer up for destruction a major magic item/artifact of evil to get 'em to give you the time of day.

PRD sez wrote:

Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.

"Physical anatomy" is, of course, undefined, but even if you strip it out, your average ooze isn't "intact" because it melts. Just in case you wanted more reinforcement on the gelatinous cube ruling you made. I would presume "physical anatomy" means "naturally vulnerable to crits" which throws out oozes and incorporeals.

I would house-rule exoskeletons as working for skeletons, but there is absolutely no obligation to do so. External plates aren't bones.

And Zombies...well you can make fast zombies, so it's not so bad.

Brain cylinders...are third party(ish). *checks different SRD* Okay, yeah, it helps me wrap my head around the concept if I think of the bioconstruct modification brain, which is basically just a mummified brain "hard drive" with a a cheap crappy processor stapled onto it. No will except echoes similar to the Speak with Dead spell.

This also neatly solves my next question, "if they are alive, can you just cast regenerate to grow them a new body?"

But that is my subjective call. Likewise YOUR subjective rulings on whether or not continuing to use the cylinders is cruelly torturing the souls of the dead with an accursed half-existence are entirely up to you.

K177Y C47 wrote:

I was about to say... Did people forget the Sylvan Sorcerer exists?


*looks at archetype*

DrDeth wrote:
Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Similarly, arcane caster with an animal companion. Doesn't happen. You can do it by multi-classing, but it's not really a good idea.
Besides what has already been mentioned, Improved Familiar.

Probably doesn't count, to the best of my knowledge the IF list is pretty short and doesn't have a "wildcard" entry for taking Animal Companion animals (like bear or whatever).

I'm just guessing though.

Greylurker wrote:

The anime Soul Eater

Concept centers around pairs of students one who turns into a weapon and the other who wields it. Powers manifest as the resonence between the two improves (Big slashy energy waves, flight, detection magic, increased melee damage, etc....)

Moss speaker (or was it mold speaker?) from Legacy of Fire is a Growth Weapon (weapon that increases in power as the character levels). It's not "anime power" levels, but that's a cross-genre issue. I mean, you can't blow up the moon with a magical ki blast like Goku either, but that's kind of expected.

The "Ki blast" power in general works with either a level of sorceror and magic missile. It simply won't break planets.

I don't have a Paizo-rules option for turning into a weapon, but I'm not sure that matters since it basically means your character isn't involved in the fight, except as a tool that might talk. It's functionally the same as just standing behind the main character and doing nothing but hand him the weapon and then talk to him.

YMMV whether that's a failure, a genre-barrier, or completely irrelevant.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Int-based divine caster. It just doesn't exist. The closest is probably a witch.

Divine casters as focussed on casting as wizards are. You can't get there, because the chassis always gives you 3/4 BAB and light armour.

Reflavor the witch. Otherwise yes.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Similarly, arcane caster with an animal companion. Doesn't happen. You can do it by multi-classing, but it's not really a good idea.

Supposedly a game-balance thing. Animal companions are "too teh powerful." But yeah, you aren't the first to lament a lack of tiger or wolf familiars, cool though they would be.

On the flip side, Charm monster continues to be available on most arcane caster lists, as well as buff spells and items for stats, abilities, and even intelligence.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Inherent shapeshifting (someone else must have mentioned that).

Druids? Kitsune.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Non-humanoid races.

I assume Goblins and Grippli still count as Humanoid? Merfolk have fish-tails. Ghoran are Plants, but they still look humanoid. Kasatha are four-armed humanoids. Centaurs...yeah, not to many races taht don't come out with arms, legs, and a head. To be fair, that describes most fantasy settings though.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Races that can just fly. Like, always, not at level ten after a feat chain.

Strix, Wyvarans, Syrinx...possibly some others but I don't know 'em off the top of my head.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Elven druid-sorceress crossover concepts. They're pretty common outside D&D-based games, but the sharp divide between divine and arcane magic within D&D space renders the concept difficult if not unplayable.

Nature-themed oracle. Reflavored Witch.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Arcane casters who use their amazing mastery of time and space to bring happy positive energy to heal people. The closest is probably a white mage arcanist, but that isn't really a spell, it's flavoured weirdly. Given that arcane casters can call negative energy from the negative energy plane, there's no metaphysical reason they shouldn't be able to do the same from the positive.

...reflavored witch?

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Anyone using a pike. Somehow a polearm more than 10' long doesn't exist, ever.

True. Though I think that's more a fundamental misunderstanding of how weapons work. Same reason shaft and shield is third-party.

Lucy_Valentine wrote:
Sundering weapons that make sense. Apparently a lucerne hammer is good at sundering armour. But it isn't good at sundering shields, because rigid wooden shields are harder to destroy with a blunt impact than bendable mail is?

Well, actually...

I mean, a suit of chainmail with a great gaping hole in it seems less likely to distribute the impact of a blow across a wide enough area to reduce the damage of a strike. A shield with a single hole in it is still a pretty good shield. But then you ask "why does it work on Fullplate" and I have no answer.

*checks SRD*

And from the description, it's using piercing damage (which...can be used to sunder now?) to hook and rip plates off of the armor like a claw hammer, which only makes sense if the armor HAS plates to rip off (hello again, inconvenient chainmail). It also doesn't work on a shield, which tends to be a more solid, singular construction.

A better question is how my entirely-wooden greatclub sunders an entirely-steel Earthbreaker without taking damage. None of that makes any sense.

Yeah, it's kind of obvious once I read it. This leads to mixed feelings since I'm playing an escapist fantasy game to get AWAY from this reality where the Bad Guys win.

Not to mention there are a helluva a lot of people who still honestly believe, "it's all the fault of (racial slur)s and (unrelated legislation)!" So it still starts fights to tell inconvenient truths about it.

Edit: not to say it isn't funny, or even kind acool.

Thelemic_Noun wrote:

The joke is that it's precisely what led to the 08 meltdown, only it's happening in hell and with souls instead of money.

Essentially, the Board of Directors at Goldman Sachs are the Court of Titivilus, the Scrivening Count.

The PC's quest is essentially to stop fraudulent foreclosures caused by robosigning.

But in the context of a battle against Hell, it is no longer the stuff of boring high finance laws allowing people to get away with fraud. The fraud mortgage broker is evil incarnate stealing the souls of the innocent, and will be smote.

Wish fulfillment at its best.

EDIT: The fact that nobody saw through the parody before I spelled it out means that this might make for a better adventure than I thought. I assumed that the parody would be too on the nose for players to take seriously, but it seems the disguise is strong enough to withstand a certain degree of scrutiny.

I don't know, there also might be a bit of TL;DR.

I mean, I haven't read it yet, but I'm replying to this later post. Clearly this makes me a horrible, awful person but I don't know that I'm alone in that.

Alex Smith 908 wrote:
While it is a reference to hebrew mythology I think it draws a lot more from ancient aliens lore than it does being a mockery of anything. It's that same sort of "what is god was an alien" ting that pops up on the History Channel all the time and the guys at Paizo seem to really dig. That being said I completely agree with you that it is a mistake to not include permanency or a line about the demiplane lasting forever. One of the designers (I don't remember which) specifically said that there should be another ability to makes the elohim's demiplanes permanent.

Considering my google search for the image in question returnedf a bunch of "Elohim means Yahweh" and "Alien God-Jesus" stuff...yeah.

Honestly, what would make the most sense is just saying that their create demiplane ability is permanent. Period. Unless they destroy it specifically.

They'd still take longer, but since they're really "pretenders to the throne" of True Gods what the the stat-having and the not-God-being they work like Glorian pretty well.

I mean, I can make a wizard who can create demiplanes and life forms, and he can wear a chestplate that has hebrew on it.

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