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1,837 posts (1,845 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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Actually, pulling a Sheogorath, or rather having the PCs "taught a lesson" by some god tossing them into the broken mind of the NPC.

Coriat wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

You are at odds with yourself.

You don't want to nuke the enemy soldiers due to some kind-hearted but misplaced ideal of reducing casualties. Fine. I'll grant you that. But then you want to create favorable battle conditions so that your soldiers can kill the enemy soldiers. I'm pretty sure that this will create casualties. Probably on both sides.

This is what the USA did wrong in the Korean Conflict and the Vietnam War. They did not commit, and the end result was that the USA lost those wars and a lot of American lives were lost for no reason.

Since when did the US/UN lose the Korean War?

Posts like that come from a particular political background, one which tends to STILL carry grudges over, "what the enemy within, the (insert political party/group/ideology) did to make us lose Korea/Vietnam/etc." Engaging that will likely be fruitless, and this isn't a political board.

Limited warfare vs. total warfare dates back a lot further than the 20th century though. One of Sun Tzu's biggest "tricks" in the amazing art of tactics that he was so famous for was abandoning the ridiculous idea that officers and nobles should be killed "politely" with capture and execution or duel on the battlefield between two high-rankers instead of just assassinating the jerk in his tent. Rules on whether or not to burn religious buildings and the people inside have come and gone for millenia. The concept of "rules of engagement" and "honor," and all kinds of limiters and delimiters happened throughout history, and quite frankly, the data continues to be inconclusive. Sometimes a "limited" campaign results in obedient client states, sometimes it results in endlessly rebellious client states. Sometimes total warfare ends a threat for good, sometimes it creates new enemies without and within.

And most times, the decision isn't made based on any of that, it is made because of other factors, like the expectation of foreign invasion during time of weakness or other parties at the border waiting for an excuse to get involved. Nuking the Norks was never an option without the intention of total nuclear warfare.

Ultimate Magic Errata, second page:


Page 202—In the 7th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells

list, delete the “lightning rod” entry.

Presumption: it was dropped late in the writing and they forgot to delete the entry on the table.

If I were homebrew researching a spell I would (just spitballing here) say it takes a standard action to cast, range personal, 10 minutes per level duration, works kinda like draconic reservoir except you shoot lightning bolts from your hand instead of spitting them.

It would be underpowered and uninspiring, but in keeping with spells that do that sort of thing.

Sheogorath approves of this topic!

bookrat wrote:

I currently have three androids in my game, and I have not found them over-powered as a race. The only issue I've come across is they managed to avoid a really cool drug addiction effect I had planned (due to their disease immunity), but that's more of a gripe with my own attraction towards the concepts rather than actual mechanics.

They still have to "rest" to recover spells and other abilities that require rest for normal mortals (one android character is role played so he stands in the corner and stares at the wall all night, while another one goes into "sleep" mode),

I am confused that they don't require sleep but they do require food and water. I mean, how do they process food and convert into energy? Wouldn't a battery pack be more feasible? Or solar energy? Seems they should have greater issues with being in contact with water and overheating rather than food and water. Perhaps they don't require sleep, but can only operate at full capacity for so long before occurring penalties (aka can only go so many rounds of combat or other high energy activities before gaining cumulative penalties).

Just thinking out loud here.. Nothing in concrete yet.

Sleep is still not entirely understood in the real world, although one popular theory is that it involves write transactions and sorting for the brain and memories and such.

The idea with Androids is they are genetically engineered humans(ish) with nanites instead of or enhancing various bodily functions such as the immune system. They are flesh and blood, but designed and clone-grown.

As for "I don't sleep even though I'm a wizard," it's DM discretion, but the rules for warforged are a good base. Essentially they needed to not do anything strenuous or difficult. Simple crafts (like knitting, or whittling children's toys), keeping watch, reading a book. They also needed to do something ELSE compared to what they had been doing for the past 8 to 16 hours due to mental exhaustion.

In 4th edition warforged just had a fully-awake but completely unmoving state where they "rest." It causes problems if something sneaks up behind them, of course, but they can watch in one direction quite effectively.

Edit: The only real problem with Androids is there is a lot of fluff that would help with ideas and questions like the above (as well as RP value) that aren't answered. There's an android religion, but darned if you can find anything about it.

BretI wrote:
boring7 wrote:
All of that said, banning the class is a LOT easier than doing all the work necessary to keep Mr. Master from annoying and overshadowing everyone else, clogging and bogging down the combat sequence, and being too powerful at early levels. I don't like banning classes either, it feels like a cop-out, but sometimes you gotta just look at it and say, "why am I running myself ragged to keep this game interesting and fun and challenging for EVERYONE when it's all about this ONE square peg?"
Banning the archetype would likely be enough, but all it actually does is cause that player to switch to the next high-power build. In my experience those that want to dominate will find a build that allows them to do so.

Yes, Archetype, that was what I meant to say.

I like summoner, but Master Summoner has issues. Big Nova problem too.

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An alignment-religion thread, we're lucky this thing hasn't already exploded and taken out half the forum with it.

edit: I could add my opinions on religion and the descent/development of various modern-day religions and human ethics and the nature of religious thought in details that would set the boards aflame, but instead, I think we should just have some light music.

Love that song.

Anyways, the question really boils down to "what is your god supposed to be doing?" Even THEN it's an alignment question *sirens blare, hatches batten down* and risky territory, but at least you'd have a little more direction than one data point of a woman (who is portrayed as legitimately insane and probably *not* talking to the god she thinks she's talking to) trying to murder her kid.

God is good, god is brutal? Torag is simple and straightforward. But there's a LOT of possible permutations. Is it The Law or What's Right? Is it Punish the Guilty or Destroy the wicked (before they can do wickedness again)? Is it "Because I said so" or "Because it is self-evidently wrong"?

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As the party levels the summoning factor smooths out.

The number of summons available per day doesn't increase while regular spellcasters keep getting more spells. The summons themselves don't progress in power very fast compared to regular party members. At level 1 everybody is swinging and missing a lot so those 3 eagle attacks really count. At level 6 the party martial should hit most of the time, at least on the first swing, and the augmented and boosted summons, while good, are less overwhelming. Not to mention at that point enemies have spellcasting, which can wreck a summoner's day in any number of ways.

Side note: the duration on summons is honestly kind of annoying, it is quickly long enough for most fights (they'll always be stomped before the duration fails) but too short for anything interesting or useful, like the aforementioned rescuing people from a cave-in.

All of that said, banning the class is a LOT easier than doing all the work necessary to keep Mr. Master from annoying and overshadowing everyone else, clogging and bogging down the combat sequence, and being too powerful at early levels. I don't like banning classes either, it feels like a cop-out, but sometimes you gotta just look at it and say, "why am I running myself ragged to keep this game interesting and fun and challenging for EVERYONE when it's all about this ONE square peg?"

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On further reflection, I feel I should reiterate more strongly that the dogs were not the best call.

Sequence of events was:
-Player does something stupid.
-player gets defeated (killed, really) by centipedes, somehow not eaten by them (I assume succumbed to poison post-battle?)
-Player is RESCUED by Kobolds. Should have had them just eat her, much more logical and much more straightforward than what happened next.
-Player does the RIGHT thing (uses a signal whistle as advertised, tries to find and rejoin the party).
-Player is eaten by dogs, basically for doing the right thing.

I mean really, it comes off a bit needlessly cruel where you create false hope and then dash it. If this was a "teachable moment" or a learning experience, that little hiccup in between undermines the lesson.

I understand it is more complicated than that, but I imagine if I were the type to make that kind of (dumb) decision I would be less likely to learn "don't split the party."

Hell, Asmodeus in the right frame. Especially if he's still in the "corrupting people to evil and convincing them evil doesn't actually exist," phase of conversion and capture. In fiction, Pelor was often portrayed as holding that particular "idiot ball" of Caligulan faith-testing.

At it's heart this is an alignment question (alarms blare, hatches batten down) since the whole "cleanse the wicked, test your faith" idiom is an instance of good being, well, not so good. In that light *any* god can be the god that has a mother killing her own child. The only question is whether it's a pitiless and brutal form of "good," a lying and manipulative brand of "evil," or something in between that demands obedience (probably lawful, probably) for any number of reasons.

Edit: Personally, I would go with Aroden.

You might think that Aroden is dead, and therefore can't do things like this. But as a god he may not be bound by such petty concerns as 4th-dimensional temporal mechanics. Nothing says he couldn't have sent a bunch of messages forward in time at the moment of his necropotheosis, a last gasp of a dying god laying groundwork for something, perhaps even his rebirth.

Or, more simply, it's someone claiming all that while actually being something else.

Devilkiller wrote:
@boring7 - Your Gunslinger sounds kind of like Captain Kirk to me. Anyhow, I felt like providing some feedback...

It was actually the party barbarian in a game I was in doing Legacy of Fire. He had a chaotic relationship with a certain harpy alchemist, and would also try to hit on or hook up with enemy NPCs that were female, and since most of the NPCs were gnolls at that part of the AP...any furry porn joke I can think of is likely to get me in trouble so I'm just going to stop here.

Edymnion wrote:

Yes, suspension of disbelief.

And no, just because I accept magic doesn't mean that SoD goes out the window. The game at least tries to be internally consistent. Magic does crazy things because, well, magic. Things that don't use magic still fall under the purview of reality though, more or less.

Can't help you much here. Alchemical cartridges are basically what you think of when you think of a modern bullet (instead of copper it uses paper, but single-unit cartridges were around for a long time) and can be loaded fairly quickly. Not inhumanly quickly, not 10-in-one-round quickly, but fairly quickly.

Edymnion wrote:
But, even ignoring that, even with Rapid Reload, you're only bring reloading down to a move action on a 1h gun, so you still only get one shot per round. 2h at best gets it down to a standard action so you're only firing your gun every other round, and wasting half the fight actively reloading.

Musket is full round action. <usket Master gets Rapid Reload for free so it is a standard action at 1st level. With that class' special 3rd level deed it becomes a move action. With Alchemical cartridges it becomes a free action. At level 3 with appropriate items (that your character can craft easily itself) you have Musket loading as a free action.

Edymnion wrote:
In real life, a good solid hit from a firearm will put you down, but the damage on these guns is too low to actually kill anything over lvl 2 or so in a single hit.

IRL a good solid hit from ANYTHING will put you down. Sword, warhammer, arrow, any punch hard enough to knock you down to the ground, etc. One of the most subtly ridiculous things about martial arts movies is dudes falling to the ground then getting back up and winning the fight. In real life if you hit the mat, it's over.

So you can do damage. Unless your party is power-twinked you can end up doing the most damage. The issue is, you aren't very interesting or iconic. Iconic gunslingers are all revolver-carrying cowboys (don't have those) or badass snipers (gun range is lousy). And I've only seen the badass sniper in Japanese media. You can shoot a lock, but it costs grit and you probably don't have any left. You can do a few other toy or trick shots with the same limitation but you can't reliably hit the magic spell so hard it stops working or beat a dragon to death with your bare hands or cast a spell that lets your fellow party members fly.

So you're a warrior but not sexy like the one with a sword. This doesn't mean you're boring, but it means what makes you interesting will not revolve around your gun.

Instead, it will revolve around the fact that you have a thing for monster women, and regularly flirt with female members of the monster community while fighting. Or perhaps it will be your penchant for making lots and lots of black powder and calling yourself The Evil Midnight Bomber what Bombs at Midnight and engage in unlicensed demolition. Or most likely, it will involve the notoriety of not being able to hit anything at all, because even though you target touch AC you keep rolling ones and twos because your dice hate you and want to kill you.

DM's discretion. Most of the time they'll let the feat count for the construction though, it is certainly "in the spirit" of the rules.

Can you make your black blade a Klar?

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Talos the Talon! wrote:

Wouldn't the city and maybe the armies of 50k have access to some powerful high level types to really throw a monkey wrench into the plan?

They may not have a 20th level type, but could they confront the arch mage with 4-6 15th level types? High priest here, master swordsman general there, high court advisor wizard types? Even throw in a few dozen types of various levels at or below 10th, and I would think this becomes much more difficult to simply have your wizard take down in one afternoon.

I know that's not the exercise here, but numbers might support a few choice high level types to challenge the wizards efforts.

Yes. Also yes. And a little no. And yes, it's not the exercise.

There's no real good way to STOP most of the teleport shenanigans, but copying the technique is fairly easy. The main thing is the enemy doesn't really see it coming. Not that they couldn't scry, but like hunting terrorists in the real world, unless you know who you are looking for, where, and why, you won't catch them in the sea of everyone else who could possibly be a threat. Note: this is why uber-liches become paranoid omnicidal maniacs, they eventually realize they'll be "safe" if they just kill everyone.

But anyway, a decent caster can copy the trick, and has more troops, so he wins. But the expanded explanation says that this particular political situation is basically just a really large-scale assassination. The king is bad, but he is the king. If he is no longer the king because you took the castle and captured/killed him the battle pretty much ends. The only reason you don't scry-and-fry is because the hand of god (this particular exercise) nixed it as an option.

Your primary goal is identifying the in-city high-level threats (easily done) and taking them out by whatever means seems most appropriate.

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Arcanic Drake wrote:
I like how you think... but what if the 50K soldiers disagree and refuse to surrender?

OP's expansion on the plot suggests the King is fairly unpopular right now due to being a terrible human being. But the question started as "race to the capital." And once you've taken the capital you have done everything that you can reasonably expect will end things quickly. If resistance remains en masse, things get more complicated.

Presuming all 50k troops are mind controlled (hey maybe that's what it doesn't work) and they intend to fight until defeated and broken (morale-wise) you start the next phase.

The city is held, this is pretty much a given, so you take your time locking it down while the siegecraft sits outside. Your supply line still works, even if you have to keep re-binding once a week, so starvation will not be an immediate issue. Sure the enemy might send a 20k-strong detachment to threaten your home base, but that will take a while.

After week 2 you should be free to take action against the outside army. Since I've grown interested in more challenging fare, we'll try and keep things under 5th level spells.

Fly, invisibility, and maybe silence can be extended and stacked on the sneakiest member of your special forces. He will slip behind enemy lines (well, speed past, he's in a hurry) and seed all kinds of horrors. He can drop contagions in the water, set fire to the food, drop gold coins with explosive runes all over the place, and zip back without anyone seeing him. This should have negative effects on company morale. Next up, the caster or the saboteur agent can take giant stone blocks which were hit with shrink item and drop them on the tents of the enemy leadership.

But this is just killing people, and we want to be gentle-ish. For that we want Vision of Hell. For 7 minutes per casting, a 50 foot radius looks like hell. It's all illusory, but danged unnerving. Follow up with a few Summoned Swarms which last for as long as the invisible mage keeps concentrating and a few Mad Monkey swarms just to pick on individual targets you really dislike and you'll not only kill less people but horrify everyone around them.

Stacked in with lots of message spells, destruction of THEIR supply chain, and the fact that the King has been killed and/or abdicated in favor of whoever you wanted on the throne and it is unlikely that the 50k will keep fighting. If they're being mind-controlled, you just keep dispelling. If deprogramming takes time, you start doing snatch-and-grabs. Officers are kidnapped, deprogrammed, and stuck back in. Whole groups are sent on patrol, captured, and smuggled back to the city with the portable hole. Soldiers who have been converted to the cause are dropped outside of the combat zone and back to the garrisons that were emptied when the entire nation's army converged on the capital. It takes time, a LONG time, but it is a fairly winning strategy.

The "10 things about goblins" list specifies that they are RELATIVELY aware of fire safety in regards to their own homes, it's other people's houses they love to burn. To be sure, there can be in-tribe squabbles that lead to entire villages burning, but superior breeding rates and the fact that goblins live on garbage means most will simply flee in terror from the conflagration and survive to rebuild (as much as goblins build) and repopulate.

Kudaku wrote:

Definitely bonus points for creativity, but keep in mind that non-lethal damage becomes lethal damage when the target runs out of HP. In this case the carpet bombing brown mold will likely lead to a crime against humanity.

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.


I could swear there is an "unconsciousness fog" spell somewhere, but I don't recall.

And of course there is merciful spell, but that requires actual combat with damage rolls and positioning and running out of spells before you take out the entire city.

Conventional army that can skip the walls still wins though, and a supply chain is doable by level 7.

Can anyone make it even lower level?

You can "rest" while still staying up and keeping watch.

RAW regarding rest:

Some spellcasting classes, particularly divine spellcasting classes such as clerics, druids, inquisitors (and others), do not need to rest to regain spells but instead regain spells at a set time each day regardless of rest.

There is one mention of "rest" being required to recharge a paladin's smite, no mention regarding lay on hands (or by extension, mercies).

So, by RAW: Probably? I sure can't find anything against it.

But let's talk game balance. A paladin who never sleeps is...standing guard. He won't be carrying his allies who DO have to sleep (arcane casters HAVE to have 'uninterrupted' rest). He is unlikely to burn all his mercies on keeping all his allies juiced on magical stimulants, so all he's doing is standing guard. This is not a big deal. If anything it simplifies things since it means the PCs aren't having to do a rotating watch order or figure out who was up when the monsters attacked.

Now what about narrative? You know, flavor text and rule of cool?

Well actually, the idea of a stalwart holy warrior who doesn't even need to sleep because of the power of his faith and the righteousness of his cause is kinda cool. He watches over the party at night, guarding against things in the darkness with his holy knight vision. I mean, it's a racial feature of androids, and it sure as heck doesn't come up as "so overpowered."

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Teleportation circle works on the supply chain, as does demiplane tunnels or Planar binding a handful of lantern archons and having 500 of your soldiers on packing duty putting the supplies into 50 pound units. It's honestly not that likely you will need a supply train for more than 9 days of double-shift delivery runs to establish control, establish local sources of supplies, and finish trying and executing the primary leadership.

But let's do some math. Oracle, level 8, owns a portable hole, 10k gold worth of stuff that Lantern Archons like, and enough cash to rent a warehouse. Assume he has at least an 18 in charisma.

First, he goes to the capital. He uses his diplomancy (18 charisma and class skill, probably over +15) to rent an empty warehouse.

Second, he casts Planar Ally, Lesser 4 times and binds 4 Lantern archons to his service for the next 8 days. 3 of them are to ferry supplies (in 50 pound bites) from Army Base to Empty Warehouse. The fourth ferries PEOPLE inside the portable hole.

Assuming 2 minutes per portable hole load and assuming 4 people per load you can ferry 2880 soldiers per day. It takes less than 4 days to move an entire 10k army wherever you want.

Meanwhile the supply train is moving faster but lighter. Let's assume 5 rounds for a round-trip, that is 144k pounds of supplies every day per archon, and we have 3 of 'em. 432k.

Alexander the Great's army was operating on 8 pounds a day (food AND water, throw in a decanter of endless water and it's free) but let's 4x that based on the assumption other things will come up. That means an army of 10k needs 320k pounds of supplies each day. You end up with a 102k pound surplus of delivered supplies and a whole army in position by day 4.

Problem: Can't really invade the city that slow. So instead you have two warehouses. House 1 is called "Base Trojan" and is inside the city because it is where you pull a trojan horse. House 2 is called "base alpha" and is outside the city walls and sets up a conventional siege.

After you deliver 90% of your army and supplies through Base Alpha. By the time the army is noticed by defenders it is too numerous for them to stop so they have to retreat and bunker behind the city walls. The remaining 10% comes through Base Trojan, successfully fight their way to the gatehouse, take it, and allow the rest of the army in.

City falls conventionally, character's gold input is within WBL for an 8th level character.

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bookrat wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Blackwaltzomega wrote:
I believe Lemmy was the one who pointed out that for the most part a fighter's progression is mostly getting greater numbers while the wizard's progression is primarily getting greater options. You can see this in a number of classes, but those two display the gap most clearly.
I would argue that that is not entirely accurate. Wizard numbers also grow immensely.

Would it be more accurate to say that fighters have their numbers grow while wizards have their numbers grow AND gain more options as they level?

Thinking about this further, it seems to me as if wizards (and casters in general) are more powerful because they can change out their powerful options by the day. In this line, is a sorcerer more in line with a fighter because they can't quickly change out their high powered options? Once their spells are chosen, they're more or less fixed, like a fighters. Is the martial-caster disparity reduced with casters that have their options fixed once chosen?

Did you ever play 4th edition? There was a game where you eventually realized all classes were balanced because they were all the same. It was fun not having any utility spells, lemme tell ya.

In my completely subjective experience the parties and classes already are balanced. My summons can't keep up with a good martial, said martial will be completely hosed without my casting support. We have (daily) real "gift of the magi" moments where I am jealous of the martial's kill count but he is jealous of my ability to just control the battlefield with conjured walls and buff spells. He's jealous I could cast fly on him, I'm jealous he had the combat ability to make USE of that flight as anything but a more obvious target for the dragon. Or rather we would have those moments if we bothered to talk about what we already know, that we all have our own parts to play.

But most of it is about railroads and spotlight time. And it turns out that has pretty much nothing to do with caster v. martial and everything to do with individual GMs and players.

thejeff wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Raising the goblins could very well be done in a setting like Kingmaker, where there are long downtime periods between some adventures. I guess the vitriolic responses just go to show how narrowminded some folks can be.

In some games it could work. Preferably when it's something the players talked about wanting to do.

In most games you won't have that kind of downtime. Most likely is a cliched moral dilemma forced on you by a GM who's got no idea how to do interesting RP.

Or just as likely one who thinks it's only realistic for there to be babies in the goblin village and thinks it would be horrible for you to hurt them, despite having set it up as heroic for you to slaughter every adult goblin - no survivors, no one tries to flee, everyone just attacks you in suicidal waves, even the older children. Otherwise, why would the helpless babies be the only survivors?

And it really, really isn't playable. And I think Icyshadow knows all of this already and is just trolling.

The goblin baby problem is, at its core, yet another facet of the infinite gem-turd of alignment threads. So we respond with sarcastic humor and baby-chucks.

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Aelryinth wrote:
Wow, people, you are seriously overestimating the power of this spell.

No, it has been mentioned several times. We are well aware, the presumption is that your character has found a way to be immortal and has the nearly-infinite time and resources necessary to make what they want rather than what they are limited to in one or two castings.

It's a mental exercise in creativity and fun. Stop being boring, that's my job.

Tacticslion wrote:

Tron. That's all, just Tron.

(Not really, probably more like the library thing with raging storms outside but no chance of power failure and loooooooooots of extra time and bountiful and stuff.)

Hmm. How 'bout this? Giant library, standard "endless bookcases" thing, and the whole place is lit with fruiting vines. The fruits on the vines glow brightly to light the place up, and can be picked and eaten if you're hungry.

The glowfruit regrows daily, and there is also a coffee bar somewhere.

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Mind control. Even if you use "rule of narrative" to say it won't be a permanent fix, as a 5th level spell you're all-but guaranteed to be able to take over ALL the major players long enough to win the battle. But let's go further, let's assume that the COUNTRY has a permanent protection from evil spell effect via a mythal or something, and assassination isn't allowed because reasons.

You can get your entire army and establish a nigh-unbreakable supply chain in 1 day. This is established upthread. You can assault the capital from inside (there will, guaranteed, be at least one mostly-empty building you can do your work in, invisible wizard scout for the win), you can take the city.

But we want to bring the body count down as low as possible, and I'm feeling creative.

Step 1: Wizard uses divination magic and teleportation to find and collect a sample of Brown Mold. He uses resist energy: cold to protect himself.

Step 2: She proceeds to grow several large "seeds" which are brown mold sealed in a glass container which is surrounded with alchemist's fire.

Step 3: While flying, invisible, and still resistant to cold she drops these fire-and-ice containers over a darkened and sleeping city. As the panicked residents try to fight the brown mold with their bizarrely well-read knowledge of obscure dungeon hazards she helps foster mold growth with walls of fire, summoned fire creatures, and the occasional meteor swarm. Every time it takes fire damage it grows, so the brown mold will rapidly spread to cover the city.

Step 4: Once the entire city is covered in Brown Mold and unconscious, with enough non-lethal damage to keep them out for hours (the cold damage is non-lethal) she brings in her team of cold-resistance-equipped specialists (preferably monks, but warriors with longstrider will do) to hunt down any hiding opposition and capture any major figures.

Step 5: Since apparently the sun no longer kills the mold (if it ever did), she casts control weather and makes the air cold enough to do actual damage, instantly killing all the mold. She then casts control weather AGAIN to warm things up before all the bodies in the streets and homes also freeze to death.

Step 6: Some people may still die of exposure, but most folks will simply be unconscious, and with the army immediately moving in and collecting the unconscious citizens it should take little time for the 10k-strong army to collect them all, move them into warm, comfy, easily-sealed common buildings. Soldiers are placed in prisons, all weapons are collected, the army spends several days gently sacking the town, collecting the people, and making sure they're all fed and nursed back to health.

Step 7: Hypnotism, charm person, diplomacy checks made by planar-bound outsiders will work on and convert most of the enemy into accepting (if not actually liking) the new power structure within a week or two. Spell-work will be focused on the malcontents, soldiers, and leaders as the peasantry won't actually CARE most of the time. After a week or so the city should be fairly well-controlled and presumably the rest of the enemy armies will be at the gates. Take note: this is not mind-control, this is diplomacy being given a boost by magic. Even Charm Person is only used as part of getting characters to listen to something more convincing (like hypnotism or diplomacy checks). There may also be some executions, but always after a big show trial and often with alternatives offered (exile to a demiplane, converting, etc.)

You aren't conquering their minds, you're changing them. And since you are a 20th level wizard you can actually PROVE your case of "serving me is better" by using Fabricate, Create Demiplane, and other utility magic to make the city a nicer place to live.

Step 8 is diplomacy. The King has already signed a treaty and a proclamation demanding the surrender of the outside forces. The 10k (plus any converts) army holds the capital. VERY FEW people have actually been killed so far (so no "revenge" impetus) and Ms. Wizard has slyly mentioned that this was a LOT harder than just raining fire down upon the enemy and killing them all. Chances are good most of the nobility and their soldiers will bend knee and cut a deal rather than fight.

Now you have captured a country with minimal bloodshed. Congratulations.


See, casters are "born with the affinity" according to maybe 3 lines of incredibly vague fluff and a general meme that dates back millenia. Therefore "caster" is a race, and hating casters is racism.


Thing about wizards though. It's a well-known fact they're actually just commoners. Yeah it turns out those "spellbooks" they are constantly "studying" are just porno mags. The whole system of magic, like science, doesn't actually work. That's why the barbarian hits better when you tell him that his "magic" sword is more powerful he does more damage with it. You can't cheat, of course, the wizard conspiracy would be very upset if you started telling all your party members that the magic spells you cast and enchanted items you "identified" were just a combination of regular items, delusions, and drugs you slip in the food.

Where does all that gold go? The gold you handed the wizard for "reagents" to make your flaming axe? Well it actually went to fund coke parties. Ale and whores baby, ale and whores all the way.

@ Abraham Spalding, silly enough?

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So I was reading the clothing discussion and started asking myself if eidolons can wear clothing and benefit from Magic Vestment.

I think this is a bad sign.

Anyway, plenty of xenoporn has retractable covers for the "naughty bits." So you can make an eidolon in improbably-skimpy armor and then still get your perv on after hours.

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Because everybody loves jocks. It's boring when a nerd wins before the fight even starts.

50.) Send them to Dr. Kaboom's Kamikaze Academy.

Well, to expand; Cleric is a better lord of undead and has a wealth of "bad touch" spells. Wizard has a few wizard-only tricks (things like Clone, Magic Jar) and more nastybad ray attacks. Most of a cleric's attack necromancy still requires getting into touch range.

Animating corpses is a complicated issue, since your best bet is either mindless stuff which rapidly becomes useless as anything but a "caddy" and higher-level undead, the kind with class levels and intelligence, tend to be harder to control and work a lot like cohorts (weak). As well, your toolbox is only what the GM allows.

You COULD create an infinite-loop horde of contagious undead (vampires) who serve you, but the GM probably won't let you do it. You CAN have a vampire slave and a cohort both working for you, but the GM will probably kill one of them off. You CAN create a zombie purple worm that digs a tunnel network for you, but only if the GM lets you find, fight, and capture intact the corpse of a purple worm.

To say nothing of the question of necromantic pollution and zombie oxes.

I think Oracle can do "bad touch" necromancer, but spell selection will be tough. You'll be building a fighty oracle type with a few key hurt spells, and only a few of them will actually be necromancy. And since a lot of them have saves and spell resistance, you'll be cursing die rolls.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

Time for some necromancy... pun intended.

So, what about an Aasimar with Scion of Humanity becoming undead? Are they immune because they are an outsider, or are the susceptible because they are humanoid?

Scions of Humanity specifically have both Outsider (Native) and Humanoid (Human) types

Even normal Aasimars are Outsider (Native)

Outsider Creature type wrote:
An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.

I don't see "reanimated" on that list, but there is a reason for that we'll get to in a moment. Raise dead spells are conjuration instead of necromancy, and the outsider entry says this:

Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.

Don't see reanimate on THAT list either. So let's check animate dead and the (choose first one to pop up...huh) Zombie template:

animate dead wrote:
Targets one or more corpses touched
zombie template wrote:
“Zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead), referred to hereafter as the base creature.

So yeah, undead demons, such as Tenebrous or the Visages, are doable.

You could do a Face class themed after the Bene Gesserit. Had a friend actually DO that, come to think of it.

Mind you, you can reflavor Bard to do most of that anyway, they just have to play a flute instead of use weird voice harmonics.

The one thing that comes to mind as important to Face is language. I don't recall there being a Polyglot feat or Truespeech option available to regular PCs. Tongues is a third level spell and still doesn't apply to writing, or the ephemeral language of Flail Snail.

kestral287 wrote:
You can't cast with Urban Barbarian. It spells out what changes from regular rage to controlled rage and casting isn't among the changes.

It's not that clear. Expect table variation.

I mean, it doesn't spell out "you CAN'T cast" in Core Barbarian, and it doesn't spell out "you can cast" in Urban Barbarian, so...yeah.

Given the number of buffs and debuffs out there, it's a good idea to get adaptive simply because you don't know what your strength will BE in any given combat.

Suboptimal. Dragon Disciple's flashy powers and cool theme distract from the fact that it's not a very powerful class. You can cast, but not very well. You can fight, but not very well.

I mean don't get me wrong, you don't have to be the biggest and the strongest to have fun. It's just important to know, going into it, that you aren't going to be super-powered.

Still interested? Groovy. You'll likely want a level of something fighty (fighter, ranger, etc.) so you can be proficient in martial weapons. Wear a haramaki, eventually getting one out of adamantine for the DR. Mithral buckler is an option if you aren't using a two-handed weapon, but you probably will be.

Urban Barbarian MIGHT be available, its a question of whether or not you can cast during controlled rage (ask your GM). Focus on buff and weapon spells that work well with you swinging your sword (or whatever) at the enemy.

Gender Identity Disorder + a desire to "win" the gender politics battle by having nothing but sons + still poorly-understood psychology regarding gender identity = a touchy subject.

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Complicated territory. Gets into gender politics, gender identity, the fact that in places and times when royalty was a thing women were mostly property and a royal daughter was "submitted" to the family which brought the Y chromosome to the particular pairing.

I mean, Pathfinder being a fantasy, you have just as many lady killers and ladykillers despite using or ignoring those tropes and memes as they wish. But the method of DOING so is by mostly ignoring sex in favor of more violence.

Anyway, the other and most obvious oddity that magic applies to royalty is life magic. Kill a king, bring him back, is he still king? What about the king who succumbs to the lure of vampirism to maintain his life. What about shapeshifting magic that may or may not allow a human to become an elf and live and rule for 500 years instead of 50? Heck, just having ready access to reliable healthcare (Cure disease vs. sticking leeches on sick people) changes the dynamic a LOT. Alexander the Great died of malaria (or something like it) just for starters.

Then there's the fact that politics are unavoidable. Someone's going to step in it by saying, "and in a world with real gods and divine magic, unlike the real world where there are no gods and no divine influence on the world." Oh wait, I just stepped in it.

*gets shot*

thegreenteagamer wrote:

Great ideas! I never thought about making him a makes some sense, but...ugh, it's just a character trait I disdain so much it would make me dislike my character in short order and try to swap, which I'd rather not.

"Why I stopped soaking Charisma" by boring7.

Seriously, I got tired of playing ugly and socially-helpless characters. I am that in real life.

"A tries to kill X to 'save' Paladin," is the most likely outcome, as A is the least stable of the three. Paladin and A will wangst back and forth before and possibly after A's plan (depending on whether or not it succeeds) and end tragically, because these kinds of love triangles ALWAYS end tragically. It's a rule of narrative, and the last 3 that didn't were a porno threesome, Twilight, and one where it was a GOOD thing they all died because the characters were terrible people.

Meanwhile, Paladin will be trying to "save" X from evil, X will be constantly rationalizing a fairly illogical tradition, and from a prison cell (or a coffin) A will be whinging and moping.

Amusing tangent: Sine a Paladin's god has no interaction with the paladin's alignment (By the rules, Desna can have paladins) a paladin of Asmodeus is stupidpossible. I guess he either REALLY doesn't understand Asmodeus or intends to "purify" and "save" his own god.

Obviously there are a number of permutations based on how many people get horribly murdered, who does or doesn't convert, and how successful A is, but A is the catalyst for the reaction process to start.

A few specific and broken (which is still debatable) traits do not make traits in general broken.

If traits WERE so horrible, people would not STILL be listing Finding Haleen as "teh greatest trait evar" despite it giving you a sum total of 1 hit point or skill point that you would not have otherwise gotten.

I mean they're optional, says so right in the book, but banning them for balance is dubious and kind of lame. I like me some character-defining traits that let me play a cleric with a skill in disguise or an oracle who can cast acid splash.

Not that I recall. Seeing as how you can go WITHOUT a patron entirely.

I question how well Pharasma would like souldrinking though, seeing as how you steal souls from their destined afterlife and sell them on the open market to demons and devils.

Or it was supposed to be "witch level" and applies to the DC as well as duration of a number of hexes.

Which seems the most likely to me, +1 DC and +2 duration is right up the alley of items like that corset.

Also also: the body slot doesn't have a lot of stuff worth putting there, so it might just be a good way to free up your wrist slots.

Another thing, when trying to think of wording that would convey "+2 to effective witch level as applies to level-based variables which affect the chosen Hex" I found it was rather difficult to pick a clear phrase.

Imbicatus wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
messy wrote:

"You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon."

this can't possibly include the usual two-weapon fighting penalties... can it?

It means the shield hand does not suffer TWF penalties. The other weapon still suffers the TWF penalties.
Unless the other weapon is also a shield.

Possibly. When I put it into Hero Lab it only applies to the off-hand attack. Hero Lab isn't ultimate definitive but it tends to be pretty good.

Agile is kind of expensive though. You could also whip out a tiny scimitar and use Dervish Dance. Still doesn't matter though...

As a Druid with At-will invisibility the play is to spend ALL your time invisible, focus on buff spells, and summon in all the actual damage-dealers. Rule of thumb: The best "bang for your buck" as a caster is buff spells on the party barbarian. Every time you actually do the atrociously long-running math you end up getting more damage out of making the Rogue's rapier glow red and cut through steel than throwing single-shot fireballs or save-or-die kill spells.

Honestly, if you're that worried about invisibility, just stretch your house rules a little further and make it that during times of stress and when the pixie's heart is filled with murderous intent (hereafter defined as, "after initiative is rolled, and until the combat ends or they start trying to run away") they are unable to maintain the focus necessary to remain invisible. You already house-ruled the Pixie in, so it's not that big of a step.

Now, if I were a combat-crazy pixie with those stats I would hijack tricks from this thread and use a Dervish Dance scimitar. Invisibility would allow me to close with nearly any enemy without provoking, assaulting from within their square with insane damage would rapidly win most "duels" and as each enemy dropped it would be a simple enough matter to turn invisible once more to move onto (and slaughter) the next opponent. Character class would only moderately affect style and choice since the key features would be using unholy dex, tiny size, and always getting to strike first to win most combats.

All of that said: is it broken? Probably not. The super-stealth scout is stymied by a closed door, the untouchable support/conjurer spellcaster is fairly normal and limited by the insanely short duration of summon spells, and even if your little monster became a little combat monster of dexterity the damage s/he'd be dealing is comparable to a raging barbarian. The Half-orc might start a bit lower, but BAB, Power Attack, and a bigger damage die grow faster than the little dex druid.

Not to mention dervish dance doesn't start until level 3.


I mean, Disease won't work because even though the SPELL will infect the cosntruct, the disease won't actually function on it, but necromancy will.

Probably, the question is what the actual intent WAS. It's not entirely clear if touch of corruption was supposed to still work like normal, or if there was supposed to be a no-damage fear-inducing touch attack, or if the designer really thought that an antipaladin's spellcasting and fear-based spells would every in any way manage to make the fearmonger ability useful.

And if (any of the above), how that would interact with the Cruelties.

If you go ahead and assume that the character just still gets full Touch of Corruption, it ends up gaining a tiny amount of healing (negligible), being forced into certain selections with the Cruelties (low cost, for a low bonus) and it works. Probably underpowered, but whatever.

The problem with a highly tactical spider is that he is quickly unbeatable. He has security camera feeds of all locations, he knows all the exits, he can command his entire force to bottleneck in one location, trap the adventurers, and kill them with something they just can't deal with be it suffocation, heavy fire from behind improved cover, or just pouring in kerosene and burning them in their hole.

This is not particularly different than real-world security, wherein the only way to successfully raid a place requires starting with a floor plan and getting in and out quickly.

Kinda figured. Even with the Brotherhood of Good Is Not Nice™, the pirate campaign can be kinda rough on good guys' morality. A boatload of slaves is a boatload of mouths to feed, etc.

I mean, I don't know the AP, I don't know how often that sort of thing might come up, or how much "flex" you get in your alignment and clerical code of ethics.

Oh right, I should have been paying attention.

"No paladin" rule could put a kibosh on that. Depends on the exact REASONING for the "no paladin" rule.

With cleric spells you could actually make decent use of animal companions or summons and the Air Bubble spell to take your attacks under the waterline. If you have enough really big water critters you don't even need sails because you can be towed by giant sharks or something.

I still have a mild obsession with an all-druid campaign, but I don't see a way they particularly synergize with Skull & Shackles.

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