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1,312 posts (1,314 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Well, deflect arrows plus Point-Blank Mastery plus ignoring the whole "have to have a hand free" would...well it would still be a house rule, but a pretty easy one.

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To take it further, hardness hurts like heck to low-level enemies and things that do less burst damage. The 20-attacks-a-round crazy knife build that does 1d4+5 damage is completely useless against a monster with hardness, but the bog-standard barbarian with a greataxe goes to town. Right now I have a party in Iron Gods getting slapped around like red-headed stepchildren because so many enemies have hardness 10 for a gang of level 4s. Next session they're going to have had the time/opportunity to buy adamantine arrows (well, arrow, but abundant ammunition is still a thing).

As stated by Belabras, it becomes an animated object creature, as per the bestiary entry, the rules are fairly vague and generic on purpose because animated objects are meant to be a catch-all construct for everything that isn't a golem. Stats are based on size, size is limited by caster level.

At a glance:
-Crap for hit points. No con score and a d10 means even the biggest bashers are kinda squishy.

-Hardness is expensive. Hardness 8 stone is your best bet just because mithral and adamantine are expensive (500 and 1000 per pound, if memory serves, not to mention the price in "construction points").

-Low damage. Constructs have lousy saves, BAB, and damage dice. A big ol' construct that manages to have a whole lotta hit dice is still swinging d8 or 2d6, and doesn't fit inside doors or hallways.

-Harder to fix. They don't heal naturally, and magical healing is limited. In-combat healing is not an option at all.

-Dispellable. If you used permanency, one bad day means your ~20k gold is gone and you have a big heavy rock in the way. If you used the alternative crafting rules to make it a construct creature which cannot be dispelled, it was a LOT more expensive.

An animated object is a decent blocker, has some nice utility powers, and can really bolster certain situations, but it's no show-stopper. Let's say you can make a huge one "work" in all situations, because you have shrinking magic for the doors or stay outside all the time. It's made of Stone for the cheapness. Its AC means most attacks will hit it. Its reflex save is +0, one created pit and it's gone for quite a while.

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In the shadows of a ruined city, a figure of metal and flesh stirs. Contact with the mind of a god, feedback of a world-cracking weapon, and the flaws in a brain he had to rebuild himself have left him quite mad.

Akron has awakened.

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oh shiiiiii-
In the depths of the forest, my little miracle finally comes. A crack, a shudder, and my son comes into the world. His steel skin is beautiful, bright and strong and glorious. I fold my wings around him and take him into my embrace as he takes his first breaths. He cannot see me, but he tastes my echoes on the winds of gravity and knows my life force from the color of my being. As he rests his exhausted head upon my breast, I sing to him. A song of peace. That peace is shattered 2 hours later, the prison is open, The Destroyer is free and we are all in a lot of trouble.

My D'kin are in a panic, reports are lost, meetings are held, the beginnings of a stupid cult are gently but firmly put down and Ambassador Ketz of the Couatl is indisposed, I suspect he is trying and failing to get useful information or answers from his kin. The Primarch comes to me, poorly hiding his sense of panic, as I feed my child. He fears the child's rather alien form, but he will learn to accept it in time.

He explains the situation, though I already know, and asks what he should do. I ask him what he THINKS we should do, and as a mother teaches her children I help him calm his rational mind and work out a planned response.

Construction begins on a new project. I assist in design, but mothering takes up most of my time. I shall catch up on probe reports some other day, or year.

I pause, on a lark I cast a single messaging spell, one-way, to the one who broke the prison. "Nice job breaking it hero, hit up the big flying city, see if there's anyone alive to help you."


Probe 1 handler team report: Humans are filthy creatures. They live in squat little cities and squabble over everything. The few who wield political or magical power are somewhat impressive, but are still quite limited. There is little communication or cooperation between settlements or specialists. This, however, is as expected. Unexpected events have occurred near 3 major human population centers; undead raiders have attacked openly, and a spike in thefts and kidnappings seem to also involve corporeal or incorporeal undead. So far the only clue the humans or the probe have found are a black scale that may be from a D'kin, but our people don't normally come in that color. One of our archivists is convinced it is the old boogeyman, the so-called First Necromancer who was exiled long ago for crimes against the D'kin. His belief is not shared by the rest of the team.

Addendum: As of this morning uplink is spotty, the awakening of The Destroyer has not escaped anyone's notice, and as our people panic so do the ground apes. I am once against struck by how similar we all are, when the chips are down and we're afraid.

Probe 2 Handler team report: Staff has been reduced by command since we're no longer in control of the situation. Reformatting probe 2's systems has been shot down by the Boss Lady herself over ethical concerns as soon as it said, "I am." Can't say as I'm complaining since I don't think it would have accepted the command anyway. Plus even if all its systems rebooted properly, it would be lost, confused, hard to contact, and stuck at the bottom of some crazy-tail energy anomaly. Me and the other 2 shifts are doing our best to give the thing advice as it pretends to be human, like, "learn what an inside voice is" and "keep an eye on the monkey." It seems to have taken that last one as an order to protect the thing, but unless the human turns on Probe, shouldn't be a problem. Still getting interesting cartography information if nothing else.

Addendum: I um, I may have been drinking, I told Probe what was up with the mountain cracking open and all that. It started talking to its buddy human and then transmission went down. Haven't heard anything since.

Probe 3 reuf[rt she90ï█: data corruptedall analysis of remains suggests self-harming or destruction of fellow data corrupted systems offline, but tranceivers data corrupted analysis suggests things are very wrong.

Addendum: The Destroyer is awake, I don't care what my orders are or what the risks are to me. I'm cracking the seal sir, and you're a stupid son of a slag for not letting me do it sooner.


Clan Sycanol grows under the leadership of their new master. The living repurpose their arcane talents for the manipulation of darker energies. The base ship is grounded and rebuilt, its arcane engine goes dark as Irrumtus changes it from a cloud-kissed flier to a powerful burrower. Using the bodies of the creatures which dwell beneath the earth and his own incredible knowledge of the arcane sciences, The First Necromancer crafted a mobile dungeon of sorts, and numerous burrowing craft to launch assaults and raids on settlements.

As he contemplates "improvements" to his adopted clan, he guides them northwest. He orders his wraith to tend a rose bush that grows in his private study. She knows not his reasons.

Still no word on his son.

As far as titles go, Mr. Auktor doesn't have to actually be "first" to ever romance a nec in this world, but he's the first D'kin to do it and that was the first time it ever came up for them, so that's what they call him.

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Nevara the Night Queen wrote:
Thank you so much for the generous gift, Bo-Ring of Seven! Is Seven the name of your homeland? It was not difficult to use my godly gifts to steal the Necrotic Engine. I have found it easy to find Humans, Primevans, and even Dogarr to train as Necromancers, and they will enjoy playing with the engine. Have a nice day! :)

Fair enough, Ms. Night, though from now on I will have to ask you to stay out of my files. Some of those things are private, especially my, er, the folder marked "slashfic" which clearly could have been written by anyone*.

To be fair I'm sure some industry-minded minion of yours would have developed a similar design anyway. Just try to remember most folk don't like it if you pollute the groundwater. I mean you DO have a sense of smell, yes?


In case there is any confusion, the term "necrotic engine" is a catch-all term for using negative energy and reanimation of corpses in an industrial manner. Animate 500 skeletal torsos and turn them into an assembly line, animate 100 legs and strap them to a treadmill/hamster wheel for to generate power. Stuff like that. Put together enough of them you can make a Turing-complete computer that occasionally moans and smells of evil.

*Grodd/Axerus OTP!

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
The Starstone is the remnant of the massive meteor the aboleths called to Golarion to destroy the Azlanti, mixed with the divine essence of the gods who tried to stop it. As the aboleth are atheistic, likely they saw no reason to visit the grave of some puny mortal "gods". Any reports brought to them by their gillman slaves of wondrous events near the impact site would be dismissed as mere superstition.

This is true, but it implies NONE of the other hojillion intelligent undersea races every strolled around that part of the ocean, which carries problems which are rather similar to the original question.

calartnick wrote:
Oracle is a good idea, thanks for the advice guys! I do wish there were more ways to get a familiar but I think I could convince my GM to allow to take leadership to acquire an improved familiar without getting the spell bonuses from a familiar. I do like the sorcerer still because I like the idea of relying on magic armor. I feel like there could be a bard arcetype that works but none seemed to jump out at me, I may have missed a good one though. I'll definitely check out oracle though.

Eldritch heritage feat with the Arcane Bloodline and improved familiar gets you a familiar with -2 effective level for the cost of 3 feats.

...Just take leadership. Share spells and other magic bonds can be done without or faked with other things. Telepathic bond can be hit with a permanency spell you know.

Nature, Lore, and Lunar mysteries have revelations that let you swap Charisma for Dex in terms of AC and Reflex saves. Nature also has an animal companion option, but eeeeeeeeh animal companions bleh.

There are a few (lousy) magic armor options on the cleric/oracle list. But then Mage Armor isn't THAT great at higher levels. Besides, the only reason to not go (at least) light armor and shield is if you have an ungodly high dex. Mind you if you take that revelation you just might.

Synthesist Summoner gives you magic armor. It's a magical outsider power-ranger/guyver suit that also gives you amazing combat stats and let's you crush your foes with a Prime-style Super-body. (No one will get that reference). Skills kinda suck though, if memory serves, and the rules are weird.

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I just watched our 14 con witch have to burn 3 hero points and 2 combat-healing "rescues" from the party healer (me) to avoid dying (not just going into the negatives, 'cuz she did that) from "incidental" damage. She wasn't even being attacked, she just rolled crap for saves and happened to be within AoE while the villain was trying to stop the rest of the party.

Wanna be sickly? You can roll that, but you'll probably leave the party hanging when you get killed. You don't want to be overpowered? Fine. But don't be a stone in everyone's dice-bag either.

If you're really that worried about casting a shadow over other characters just roll support. Melee + ranged + skald means no primary healer, no full arcane caster, and uncertain utility. Find out what the skald is doing specifically (skill points and spell selection) and then fill in the blanks. Biggest concern is out-buffing the Skald, or taking skill ranks in the Skald's skill-set. Solve the first by buffing the Skald first (so s/he's doin' better by default) and solve the second by doing lots of Aid Another actions and only "taking over" the skill checks when the Skald is incapacitated.

Even if you were playing glass-cannon blaster, it's a simple matter of tactics. Focus on wiping out the mooks so the rest of the party can kill the big bad. Or weaken the big bad with blasts while the rest of the party racks up a kill count they can keep score with. You can hide a lot of battlefield effectiveness by just assigning the right damage to the right places. As long as they seem to feel like they're winning, you're good.

Elf, gnome, and half-elf have to take alternative traits to get it, and the usually have "better" alternatives they would rather take, AND I've been assured that human's bonus feat is da bestest, so I feel safe saying that most (over 50%) PCs won't have darkvision. I mean if you want to start splitting hairs about how many races that have ever been made for pathfinder and whether or not they get darkvision then maybe most do, I don't care. Point is a raid against surfacers by Drow has a good chance of not having full darkvision coverage.

And the point is that along with having a greater-than-zero chance of working, it is very cheap. They get it as a spell-like ability, at-will uses, any character class. It is a traditional tactic because it works.

Drow still use darkness, just because it's cheap and easy. If they layer darkness/deeper darkness right it ends up making it dark enough for darkvision (which most races don't actually have) but not supernaturally dark. Blinding half the party until someone burns a 3rd level spell slot (or equivalent) helps, especially if it's done in the surprise round.

Fun tangent: current party we're gearing up to run Rappan Athuk has conspired to make sure we all have darkvision, so we don't need light sources that muck up stealth and let enemies with darkness magic pull that crap.

calartnick wrote:
So I saw the Azata Aasimar is supposed to be the epitome of beauty, and I wanted to build a charisma based spell caster that uses a lot of diplomacy, bluff and even intimidate. I was thinking a sorcerer with the arcane bloodline and take improved familiar to get a little shoulder angel friend. However with the bonus to perform I was thinking maybe bard would do the trick. I do love the idea of more skill points. However, I don't know if the bard is the appropriate class for a beautiful angelic woman who is powerful enough to intimidate forces of evil. Keep in mind I'm looking more for flavor then the best mechanics, I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the best class for my character idea.

Depends on who your bard is. Is she a dancing strumpet who distracts drunks for coin or an oratorical goddess who gives speeches that incite riots? Does she stand at the back and play a lute all fight or stand at the front singing the songs of righteous battle while slicing up foes with a dancer's grace?

Of course, she WON'T be a death-dealing ball of magical destruction with the bard's spell list, but you already knew that.

Honestly, it depends on your party, but the primary goal of "beautiful, terrifying, deadly, magical" says "oracle" to me. Get your little sidekick via Leadership (doesn't have to be a shoulder-angel at that point either) and let it take spellcaster levels for more magic, stomp around with shiny armor, get 4+ skill points and diplomacy/sense motive as class skills, and use 2 traits to grab Fast Talker and Omen traits for bluff as a class skill and intimidate as a swift action class skill.

Curse is up to you, check the oracle guide.

Or Summoner, because summoner is always crazy powerful.

Intelligence: This has been FAQ'd several times with no response but there was actual rules text on it in 3.5. Gonna have to just ask the GM.

Uses: Give it wands of low level spells you don't want to waste an action casting, have it go to town. It can latch onto the tank and give him (effectively) fast healing 5, for example. It can also sit on your shoulder and constantly be detecting good or evil.

Memory magic: Holy hand grenades you just got a treasure. Oh sure 1 level in anything will be junk for the spells he picks up but any class you take can use all wands (or staves) to throw down buffs or specials that are always good. Vanish, Mudball, Ray of Exhaustion; there are all kinds of little spells that buff the party or debuff (often without saves/SR) the enemy. Just blinding an enemy so it can't make AoOs for one round can be a heck of a bonus when it doesn't cost you anything but a charge on a level 1 wand.

Staves are even better, because (and I only recently realized this) besides casting higher-level spells, you can recharge them off your own spell slots. Staff of travel will let your little friend teleport the both of you around the battlefield while you do more important, enemy-stomping things with your standard and full-round actions. Yeah, it's expensive, but it's cheaper than potions, easier than crossing the battlefield to tag the barbarian with a lousy +2 (or whatever), and with alternate spell lists it lets you drop all those little stackable buffs and debuffs that the party wouldn't otherwise have.

I mean, there are better critters to use, especially ones that can go invisible naturally, but you got what you got. And if you stick a headband of intellect +2 (disable device) on his head he also becomes a decent lock-picker. Might be useful from time to time.

For class, I recommend sorceror, has the least overlap with your own spell selection (it can still use what you can use) but there are ever so many options, including Summoner (spells at a lower spell level = cheaper wands).

RumpinRufus wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

If there was a spell which said something like, 'during the duration of this spell you may attack (or full attack) with a ranged touch attack which deals 1d10 fire damage', then yes you could use the effect of this spell to execute an AoO via Snap Shot.

Can't think of any particular spell which does this...

Produce Flame.

Even that might not work. Text of the spell says nothing about it actually being a weapon. Even if it did, it still would not be making an AoO with a SPELL per se, because you are just using a spell effect as a weapon rather than casting a spell.

To the best of my knowledge you can use a "held charge" of a touch spell like inflict serious wounds or chill touch or shocking grasp to make an AoO because that "charge" counts as being "armed." I am not entirely clear on this because nobody ever seems to use or remember these rules, and generally when a mage casts one of those spells he or she hits the touch AC in the first attack, discharging the spell.

Why can't you "wield magic", even if the spell is somehow a swift or free action because of quicken spell or whatever? Because that's the rule. "Specific trumps general" means that the specific rule lets you take weapon focus on ray, missile, or touch attack but it does NOT actually make those attacks "weapons." The general rule is that magic isn't a weapon, so without a specific rule saying you can use snap shot to AoO with a spell, you can't.

"Is it an unreasonable house rule?" Well probably not. At that point you soaked 4 feats and are either a fighter with some spells or a very special kind of caster who is pretty darn high level and within grabbin' range of big scary things.

It's not that big a deal at that point if you can burn an extra disintegrate in a single turn at that point. It would be like spell perfection.

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Probe Omega One report:

Analysis of unknown metallic titan is inconclusive. Energy readings and behavioral patterns suggest it is a "concept creature," bound by laws of cosmic consonance like outsiders and deities. It's trail of creation and destruction ended at a flat mesa with anomalous dimensional properties and planar overlap. Probe 1 tentative conclusion: a new god has forged a new demiplane to reside in, readings indicate anarchic bias and creation/destruction portfolios. Probe 1 controllers deemed planar incursion to be too high-risk. Probe 1 proceeding to secondary investigation; human settlements. Initial readings show low techno/magical development, engaging infiltration protocols. Omega Probe One signing off.

Probe Omega Two report: Citadel did not respond to hails, initial contact with Lightscar uneventful. Attempts to collect samples of fluid-like substance all failed. Preliminary hypothesis, fluidic aether? Communication systems disrupted by immersion in fluid as previously anticipated by handlers, probe 2 began primary descent. No further anomalies recorded during primary descent, but post-action analysis suggests stealth systems were temporarily disabled and unbalanced by Lightscar's "otherworldly energies". Cavern network extensive, numerous aberrant lifeforms sighted, mostly avoided. Minor altercations, probe 2 casing undamaged. Stealth system discovered to be non-functional within fluid, adjustments to my tactics were made.

Exiting fluid, contact was re-established between Probe 2 and home base, orders received to continue mapping area. As analysis continued, signs of a human were discovered. I followed this foreign explorer, curious as to what was going on. Activation of unbalanced stealth protocols resulted in immediate discovery by my quarry. Uncategorized emotion experienced, I felt embarrassed at my mis-step, then afraid of the alien feelings. I presume this growing sense of sapience and will is a side-effect of exposure to lightscar energies.

I am attempting friendly contact with traveler, I detect he is "blessed" by his deity and our respective goals may align, however temporarily. Also, thoughts of alliance and/or companionship quell negative emotions I am not currently programmed to deal with. Adjusting stealth systems to appear more humanoid and initiating contact. Omega Probe Two signing off.

Omega Probe Three running dark, initial contact with Citadel outside of desired protocols. What the heck happened after the battle Handler team signing off.


The time of hatching draws near, despite my apparent helplessness, I find comfort and contentment. I sing to my child as her time grows near. The D'kin of the moon remain in torpor and have rechristened their home "Terequie," for a peace they dream will be eternal. I don't have a sword to hang over their heads or a fire to light under their tails, but I think my probes may find one soon.

Has someone been watching Baymax do his thing?

Anyway, the big issue is that constructs (of all sorts) and in fact MOST non-combat stuff is deliberately vague. The game rules are for killing monsters and taking their stuff, the "fluff" is rules-lite specifically so you have more creative license and liberty.

Bioconstruct brains can give skill points and feats. In pure numbers this grants you whatever specific skills you want that your constructs would make skill checks on. It still doesn't hammer out exactly how "smart" you can program a construct to be (see a certain "undead livestock" thread for similar arguments) but it's something. Nothing says the brains have to be from people, either.

Animated objects can really have basically anything you want, including a washtub, pumping system, and scrubbers. When I create an idealized airship/animated object it includes long-reaching ropes and standing orders to use those lines to grab anyone who falls overboard. Not strictly RAW but not unreasonable either.

For soft coatings, plush works, as does rubber from rubber trees. Implanted tracking magic means a child's favored teddy bear can "play possum" and assist in retrieval by being easily traced.

The Lifespark construct and clockwork creature templates allow for intelligent constructs, they are also 3rd party. Check the d20pfsrd. Robots can be intelligent, but that starts playing Numerian tech stuff.

Honestly, like other folks have said, just go with it. If their combat stats don't matter, their stats in general don't matter much. At most their creation has to come up with a vague idea of how smart/well-programmed they are and even that's mostly going to be plot-determined.

Primary weapon, backup weapon, ranged weapon.

If you have the strength for it (probably not) a light pick for those times when you need to coup de grace a sleeping target.

Sap, for subduing.

Armor, if any.

Rope, silk, because you need to climb things.

thieves' tools

disguise kit, for when magic isn't enough.

Alchemical goodies like fire, acid, ice, rust, and tanglefoot bag.



A reversible cloak.

You can throw nothing but ghouls, ghasts, and similar weak critters at the PCs. You can use skeletal champions who are determined by class level. But the true flavor of an "endless wave of walking corpses, mindlessly tromping towards you" is zombies and skeletons.

Hey check it out, we have the swarm template which lets you turn a pile of 2- hit die monsters into a rolling wave of decent challenge. Or the troop template which is basically the same thing but better built around humanoids.

Ashiel wrote:
Claxon wrote:

If he knows of her allegiance to an evil enemy and doesn't stop associating with her, then he isn't a paladin anymore. He's willingly associating with evil. Has he bothered to use detect evil on her at all? If he suggest the paladin does because he doesn't want to know it hints at the fact that he realizes that she might be evil. And is further reason to lose his power.

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
However, before proceeding you should discuss out of play with the player about what will happen if he continues to associate with evil.
That's okay. The associates bit doesn't actually cause a Paladin to fall.

Until the associate bull rushes him into a pit.

Yes, it's still funny.

In any context I have run across it is a negative term, so it would be easy to misunderstand your meaning.

Another point is when you say "army" you imply massed combat rules, large numbers, and generally lower levels/NPC classes.

Do I smell auto-correct?

Anyway, lawful evil will still happily torture the hell out of a peasant who isn't forthcoming enough with information or kill someone after they answered questions to "maintain operational security" and prevent them from squealing.

Also, why would you tell me that? NOW I can't keep repeatedly thrusting my terrible innuendo into such a warm, inviting thread.

Other fun:

-The characters debate ethics.

Plague-zombies are headed for a village to kill and convert the peasants. Antipaladin suggests the party simply forcibly evacuate all but the local criminals and send them (now homeless refugees who will likely be enslaved) away. Then she intends to use the local criminals as bait for firetraps which will kill the mindless creatures. The criminals will have to be cut-up a lot so the zombies can smell the blood and will undoubtedly die in the fire, agonizingly.

Illegal slave-takers are raiding the area. She intends to kill the slavers (yay!), free the citizens who have been illegally taken (yay!), and enslave any surviving non-citizens herself (boo!).

A rebel force is planning a murder-sacrifice ritual to conjure up a powerful demon. Antipaladin doesn't have any evil plans here, except torturing one of the cultists for information. She uses it as an opportunity to talk about all the good that evil does (wait, wut?) while the paladin has the opportunity to point out the similarity between kidnapping innocents for sacrifice and a system which does the exact same thing for devils, except in a more orderly and regimented fashion.

Kill a village of orc raiders. Lots of orc widows and orphans left over. What do? Antipaladin suggests a simple solution (murder, or "giving them a good ownerhome that would teach them to be productive members of society").

Anyway, all I know for certain is eventually the paladin falls. Divine grace only lets you make so many reflex saves before a pit trap works.

Problem I always have with Dragonlance is the rubber-band power scheme. You've got hypothetically "low magic, low-power" everything then you're constantly slaughtering dragons. And beyond turning dragons into corpses and their eggs into monsters I'm not sure what plot is particularly "Dragonlance."

Admittedly, this is at least in part because I didn't read that many of the early novels.

Actually one of the things that springs to mind is the Minotaur pirates and the penchant for Krynn adventurers to step on a boat more than once in their lives. More than half the short stories in one particular book were set on islands or beaches or oceans. Skull and shackles would likely require SEVERE re-working to make it all more Krynnish, but I am told it has some sandbox elements that would make such a thing easier.

Surprised how few archers are brought up. Several archers holding to disrupt spellcasting and with decent stealth checks can be quite the pickle for a caster.

Does she know HIS affiliation?

First, in the paladin description a paladin cannot associate with evil characters except when trying to defeat a greater evil. Iomedae (or the like) don't care how hot, heavy, acrobatic, or adventurous that association is. It ain't supposed to happen, period.

But let's talk classic tropes. Good boy/evil girl plots go one of threeways; boy gets corrupted by the evil dirty whore, girl is "cleansed" and converted by the magic of his 'holy rod', or they fight to the death with lots of angst. Please save discussions on the obvious sexism of these traditional tropes for the end of the thread when the mods lock it, we have plot to discuss.

She's evil, pure and simple. She has an aura of evil following her and gave herself over to the forces of hell in a very literal and magically-binding sense. The only excuses the naked paladin has is that he's trying to convert her or pumping her, repeatedly and vigorously, for information about BBEG, and/or trying to convert her.

But you don't intend a fall, and you clearly don't have a particular path of death/redemption/corruption plotted out, so here's a plot that keeps things going while leaving forks in the roads:

Drop more baddies in the way. She and he stop just having midnight trysts and guilty banging and actually go questing together against bigger, badder enemies. This can require anything from minor to major plot revisions and/or murdering and replacing the BBEG (probably with her, lolbetrayal) to keep it going, but on the path she can be a source of information, fellow hack'n'slasher, or cut-scene assistant ("I'll hold off these gibbering hordes of undead! You take care of the lich who is making them!") on all kinds of side-quests that involve scenery-chewing bad guys who she or BBEG want dead. On the run she'll be constantly coming up with "quicker, easier ways" of solving problems, trying to steal and keep evil magic stuff he wants to destroy, embarrassing him by loudly making jokes about their "horizontal team-ups"/inviting other hot party members to "group activities," and negotiating with evil things he just wants to kill.

Meanwhile, he can choose if he watches her get away with murdering unhelpful peasants and the like, embarrasses her in front of other people by being a buzzkill, or some combination of the two.

Edit: Baddies. Here's a list of critters that can cause problems that a paladin and an anti-paladin would both hate.

Corpse-lord: Undead guy is trying to create legions of walking dead and blot out all life because reasons which includes all living slaves. Evil gal (or boss) want slaves to keep producing new slaves because even if you USE undead, you need a renewable source of bodies long-term.

Macguffin: Evil guy (any kind) has evil artifact, antipaladin claims he is planning to destroy world with it, he may be just keeping it around and antipaladin is lying. Paladin wants to destroy it, antipaladin wants to steal it.

Dangerous Alliance: Evil guy is going to betray BBEG, antipaladin sees it coming. She can't take the army out to stop evil guy but she can take a band of adventurers. This weakens BBEG a bit, but keeps him from being betrayed and murdered.

Dangerous betrayal: As above, but antipaladin is planning on setting the two evils against each other. Paladin is okay with it because evil v. evil is good, she's okay with it because she's got a plan to take over/gets off on war/wants revenge on one or both of the evils/is just a real b@@~&.

Evil Onions: Antipaladin is attacking evil minions of BBEG to appear like she is betraying him for paladin-redemption thing, is secretly planning to corrupt paladin and turn him to BBEG's side, is secretly-secretly planning to strike BBEG down and rule the galaxy as husband and wife, is secretly-secretly-secretly hedging her bets to see if good is stronger than evil and if she should switch sides, is secretly-secretly-secretly-secretlyohmygodit'sgotmei'mbeingsuckedintotheeve nthorizonaaaaaaagh-*

Eff Tee Ellz: Goblins squeal just as good as humans, and she loves the squishy noises they make when she put 'em on pikes. Killin' good, killin' evil, it's all for the lulz.


I'm not even sure Cackle is technically verbal-dependent. Truth of the matter is it's just GM's call. Cackling in a silence spell, for example, has no rules stating it doesn't work.

Strictly speaking, I haven't even found text that clarifies you need line-of-sight or line-of-effect to hit enemies with supernatural abilities, but I also never got a clear answer on whether or not a gaze attack works through an invisible wall or an invisible blindfold either.

Forbiddance is also expensive, but it has the advantage of being permanent, and I don't think you can get rid of its alignment-damage thing.

Dimensional Lock is 1 action, does a 20 foot area, and is also 8th freakin' level (scroll is an option, I suppose) and is still flashy green energy field-y.

Hallow or Unhallow can have a permanent dimensional anchor effect on it (which has basically NO explanation for how that even works, like, can somebody teleport in and then not out? Does a green energy beam just zap anyone who enters? nobody knows!) and lasts for a year.

ElterAgo wrote:

Well the group is very likely to get in a series of fights with fey in the very near future. So obscuring mist, silence, tanglefoot bag, and various poisoned arrows raining down on the back of the party seem ideal.

Until he tries to teleport or dimension door, he shouldn't realize there is also a dimensional anchor up.

What do I give the grab team so they can see and operate in the obscuring mist?

So the team will need at least one decent caster to get a dimensional anchor going.
At least 2 casters to get the obscuring mist and silence at the same time.
Bounty hunter to try and knock him out or incapacitate him.
Sythesist summoner to pound him with nonlethal damage. (Could be the one casting the dimensional anchor.)

So maybe a cleric 8, sythesist 7, and bounty hunter 7. All of them of course should have drow hand crossbows with poisoned bolts.
Sound reasonable? Any further suggestions?

Under normal descriptions, Dimensional Anchor is a beam of energy hitting you that then covers you in a glowy emerald field of no-teleporting.

Which is actually a decent way to announce their presence.

Alternatively, have some plot behind the band. Team leader is a pompous jerk who Starscream (I mean, "second in command") wants to kill. There's a betrayal during the battle which costs them success when they would have otherwise succeeded. This has the added benefit of making the hit squad appear scarier (they almost won) while still letting the witch get away.

Is retraining an option for PFS?

If they know he's a caster, their first step will be a silence spell on a tanglefoot bag hitting him in the face. No casty for you!

He'll still have Hexes, of course, though you'll need to make certain if any of them are stopped by silence (I don't think any are, but at least Cackle is a gray area for most DMs).


I like playing a flippant, kinda lazy engineer of a wizard with a giant toolbox and trick for every possible problem. Or a combat medic cleric who just sort of keeps things duct-taped together. Thus, I play 'em a lot.

ElementalXX wrote:
I actually complain about the dagger doing less damage than a greatsword. I believe players shouldnt be penalized for wanting to play an specific trope.

If twin daggers cost the same to enchant/make as a single greatsword, would that balance it out?

Agility fighters (like the knife-fighter/grey mouser idiom) have been back-burner/suboptimal for years anyway, the argument is mostly a subsection of this one. "Making dex also do damage makes dex too powerful because it also does AC so it will never ever happen." It generally takes a prestige class and really good stats to pull off the knife-fighter theme well.

And I agree with the deeds problem. Not only are they weak, they're kind of boring or at least limited in their variety. But I think that is because other classes start with similar limited choices and then build from there while the gunslinger doesn't get much dev support because nobody really liked it all that much. So you don't get the gunslinger deed that lets you shoot a magic ricochet shot around cover or shoot another ranged attack out of the air as an immediate action (including fireball and energy missiles maybe?) because you're just that badass. Had the game moved in that direction there would be more stuff like that, but it didn't so there isn't.

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All dimensional anchors destroyed, contact with the surface is limited to one gate in a high mountain vale and only once a year. The hatching will be soon, but as the child of my womb gets ready to awaken, the children of my blood fall asleep. Those with me in our world above fall into a torpor of safety and magical security. They do not wish to push boundaries or take risks for they can see the results below. Those in the world below lose more secrets of magic each year, forgetting ways of power and creation which they have not the resources or infrastructure to use. The citadel in the sky does not speak to me, nor the surviving airships of the now-clannish nomads most of my D'kin have become. I know nothing of its status.

Mapping continues, and as I sit in my nest I craft 3 final probes, strong enough to travel to the surface on their own, stealthy enough to observe a human city from within, smart enough to establish communication through unforeseen complications. One chases the titanic craftsman, one plumbs the depths of the Lightscar, and one follows the D'kin, that it may render assistance to their plight.


Clan Sycanol grows weary, their base ship is faltering and will soon become adrift. Scouts discover a cavern with draconic symbols; perhaps a hidden supply base of old? The clan leader herself leads a team into the depths believing she might save her people. Her excited hopes are dashed when, after traps and wards and clockwork servitors, all she finds is a tomb. She smashes it open in a rage, her people are hungry, she lost family on this venture! The corpse within stirs as the Nameless One, first exile of the D'kin and father of Akron, awakens.

The first necromancer takes her life, but as he bends her shade to his will he learns of her plight. "Your people will live, but they shall serve my will," he says. Filled with new purpose, this lord of undeath takes a new name for himself; Irrumtus Auktor. He and his apprentices in necromancy secure food and supplies by taking them. "Let the children of the hunter be hunted," he chuckles to himself. But still he is troubled...what of his son?

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Gaaary. Gary gary!

I was given the (possibly entirely wrong) impression they make decent siege weapons.

Also, at least with Gunslinger, large amounts of black powder are cheaper and easier to make than a necklace of fireballs when you want to build a suicide bomber or a mega-damage explosion.

The SRD wrote:
In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.

Emphasis mine. "Can't cross this line" is similar to "can't touch this creature." RAW requires interpretation no matter how you slice it, RAI is pretty clear. I mean, if you can beat one why couldn't you beat the other when they're supposed to be the same thing?

Dismissal, Banishment, Holy word or its other-alignment kin. There are counters to that counter in the form of two different magic items (whose names escape me at the moment) that basically lock down anything wearing them with a dimensional anchor effect, at least one of which is specifically for eidolons and mentions banishment and dismissal.

Really, best option to counter a Synthesist is just a pair of well-built martials. Even if the summoner is guaranteed to make all its concentration checks, it can't heal as fast as a well-built barbarian can tear it down.

That's fair, but it's a lousy balancing mechanic.

Jodokai wrote:
There is no specific number. My argument stems from actually playing the game. I play the game, I play it a lot. I've seen how in actual play, Gunslingers ruin games.

I play games. We have a gunslinger, he has hit 2 enemies with his touch-ac musket in the last 4 levels of play. He has actually done more damage with his longsword AFTER BEING DISARMED of his musket because his dice hate, hate, HATE him when he tries to make attack rolls.

Therefore clearly, because subjective experience beats objective analysis, gunslinger is too weak.

Yeah, I don't generally bank on temporary hit points unless they happen during the fight, and even then a caster wants to avoid ever getting hit in the first place.

But it does appear to work, RAW, and with a few opportunities to get "free" points out of the loop to recharge your other spells. You could also do this as part of crafting magic items during downtime or charging up to cast spells with expensive components.

You mention holding 12 points, can you carry that many? It said there was a limit to your soul pool.

Well, if you take Oracle with the Haunted curse, you can get lots of spells focused around lifting, moving, or reducing the weight of objects as well as having a lot of spells per day.


If you want thematic; it's not the most powerful, but a Sylph (human with air elemental blood) sorcerer with the elemental bloodline can take any brand of "boom" spell and turn it into electricity on the fly. You can also fly (kind of useful) or at least levitate from very early on. I'm sure there are better ways to do a super-evoker, but it's a good first-run without a lot of complicated tricks and tactics and it all goes well together thematically. You're a child of wind and thunder, you toss lightning because it flows in your veins.

Take a few ranks in perform because you are a great conductor.

*is beaten to death with a conductor's baton*

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Farael the Fallen wrote:

I am working on a map based on previous posts. I have also been making a glossary of sorts. Its in alphabetically order and lists the gods, goddesses, races, artifacts, weapons, etc.

The map so far has the locations of Nevara's valley (with the hills and mountains around it, the valley is in the far northwest), the Obsidian Mountain is at the far north (with a sword stuck in it that is keeping the Destroyer stuck), south of it is Mt. Dogon and his temple (I assume his Dogarr live around it), to the northeast is a river that runs through vast mountains to a Mashileen settlement next to an ocean that's on the eastside of the map (no name for it yet), the Lightscar (its in the center of the map replacing the Field of Blood), south of it is the city of Primeva next to the Great Sea, tp the west are the Human tribes on vast plains, then the "Greatest Forest" with strange goblin monkeys, then south of that is Jakoberg's Garden (what is growing there), and at the very bottom of the map are the Southern Jungles with Stunties living there.

OK, did I miss something? I will set up some sort of free blog so I can create a link to the map. Its in pencil so it can easily change. Its not professional at Also, lets talk about an actual name for the world if that's ok. So far we just have Calamp. The Gods can submit their ideas for name and we can take a vote. Look up how Glorion was named for

Goblins are stunties, I'm just rude. It is an old derogatory term for goblins, snotlings, gnomes, kobolds, dwarves, and other races you can "overlook" (lolshortjokes) that I picked up from a blood bowl/warhammer player I knew. I am a terrible, ridiculous person.

Sorry, I was speaking awkwardly.

The quoted text is from the pathfinder version of the spell.


This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. You can use this spell to transform all manner of objects and creatures into new forms- you aren't limited to transforming a living creature into another living form. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its transmuted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines.

deleted irrelevant table

If the target of the spell does not have physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), this spell grants a base score of 10 to each missing ability score. If the target of the spell does not have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), this spell grants a score of 5 to such scores. Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force. A non-magical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren't affected by this spell.

This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.

Nothing about it needing to have started as an inanimate object, nothing about it needing to have not had ANY mental stats. Just any non-existent mental state becomes a 5.

Interesting side note: Nothing in the text about turning a rock into a creature with no Int score (zombie). Presumably it was overlooked for the sake of brevity, but it is still amusing.

" If the target of the spell does not have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), this spell grants a score of 5 to such scores."

Pretty sure in 3.5 the text was about object-to-creature, so it used to be that way, but this is Pathfinder.

Zwordsman wrote:
boring7 wrote:

Androids are a bit too fleshy to really fit most of the Warforged's idioms. They don't sleep, they're immune to disease, but that's about the end of the similarities.

My only beef with the Android is that their source material is spread out across 3 or more books and has some annoying holes in the fluff. Not of the, "wait that doesn't make sense," sort but the "wait, what about X? What's their culture/viewpoint/biological/game mechanic reaction to that?" sort.

And 1/day abilities rub me the wrong way. But that's my problem.

For the culture bit.. Isn't it vague because the souls that inhabit the body aren't specifically from one source of cultures? it implies that any free sould that found a "dead from old age" android body could take over it. Since they "age" and deactivate and the soul passes on instead of the body breaking down. Or at least one of the enteries implied that. So it's a lot more "blank slate" culture wise, so each one might have a seperate one depending on where and when they activated. and there can be some really awkward moments when someone who used to know you, or old pictures of you, and such show you but it was the "last" you

** spoiler omitted **

Kinda means that an android has no specific culture other than the disconnect.. I've always played mine up sorta like they haven't the past memories etc of the past lives but habits, likes, and random things did bleed over. But I must admit that my perception is coloured by Alchemicals from White Wolf's Exalted

They have a religion of "the first" which is not very heavily explored. The "emotionless" trope is hazy, but admittedly that is partly because there is a lot of scholarly debate on the nature of emotional thought and every major "emotionless" fictional character you care to name was chock full of pathos that they just played out differently.

Also, questions of programming. They start with a base programming of SOME sort and patterns they generally follow, the determination of what sort seems much more vague than the Warforged of Eberron. B

I mean, is there a key phrase that brings an android under control?

First time, it rolls a natural 20 on its save and nothing happens.
*gets slapped*
Ow, okay, it becomes an intelligent and free earth elemental, with no previous mind it has no real memories of before (subject to narrative meddling) so it has no RAW reason to be your friend or your enemy.

When it reverts? DM's call. Rules are vague on the nature of the link between a necromancer and a necromanced, so you've got room for anything from, "the bond is forever broken, the skeleton is now free to destroy you" to "the bond was there, you were tied to it, but it could not hear your call until now" to "heh heh, you don't actually think you're going to survive this next fight in the first place, do you?"

I do miss the ability to tunnel as a transformed caster or with a summoned critter...

zza ni wrote:

ok first let me say im sorry for not linking this PRC to begin with. in pfsrd they call it soul-eater as they tend to stay away from trade names(is also why they don't name the 4 horse man and use a,b,c and d.) except for this it is more or less word for word what the Book of the Damned III says:

link for soul eater\drinker prc

Claxon : fine. order it to shake, and use two rounds to kill it.

Artemis Moonstar : restoration cost too much to cast, and a level 6 caster doesn't even get it yet. later on i might have thought of using blood money for the restoration. but he will be Charon's follower and immune to effect that lower str and con. so the entire blood money process probably won't work.

Claxon 2nd time: in the whole soul using chapter of the book the flavor add that some think that animals don't have souls. the fact that you can take animal and plants souls and make soul gems of them prove this to be wrong.

boring7 : it is a touch attack energy absorb shtick .like the undead and such. no save. the save is one day later to see if it is permanent level lose.
and i don't have to kill it. the point is getting it zapped twice. and nothing in 'summon monster I' don't make them immune to negative energy attack or energy absorb. this is the rule section, even if the summon isn't dead-DEAD it still is effected enough for the process to work.

Ah, there we go.

Yeah that works. Even if you didn't order it to hold still because of DM shenanigans, as long as it doesn't have any enemies to attack it just has to stand there and it can't really run away from you. You zap it twice in the same period you would have order/auto-critted. DM can still house rule that "all the energy goes away when the critter is unsummoned" or "soul's not there, so you can get the HP but not the soul points" but it works by RAW.

Flip side: those temporary hit points are a whole lotta effort for a pretty lousy payoff, the minute you're done is the same minute the temporary hit points start decaying at a rate of 5 per round, so you have to have timed the battle you'll be losing them in and your hour-long siphoning session perfectly. Superior Summoning (takes 2 feats) will let you summon 2-4 ponies (that's 4-8 soul points) for the cost of a 2nd level spell slot (only 4 points to replace). With that you can have leftover points that you can funnel into other stuff, like charging a staff or recovering all the spells you already cast today. Infinite power loop, and all it cost you was your eternal damnation and incredible cruelty to summoned creatures!

Yeah, that's a lot shorter and simpler than I put it. DM needs to either plan ahead for the orcish war orphan story or not put them in the game in the first place.

To expound on the original line of questioning, I do find it a lot harder to use transmutation. I realize it used to be the bestest school ever, but that stopped being the case when teleport was (rather reasonably) ripped out and given to conjuration. Polymorph spells are just hard to follow now, abilities may or may not transfer from a number of forms, and the lack of creative license until polymorph any object is frustrating. Maybe I just want to a second set of arms, but unless I can find a sourcebook with humans packing extra limbs (and the DM says they're in the campaign world) I can't do it, even though I CAN grow wings and a bite attack with the same spell.

But them's the breaks. Polymorph has always been campaign trouble, from the 2nd edition koosh ball critters with total magic immunity and full wizard casting to the huge regenerating acid and fire immune troll with the abilities of a fighter/cleric gestalt in 3.5.

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War's getting messy down below. The D'kin have had to evacuate the lowlands, vales, and sections of forest because of floodwaters and live a more nomadic lifestyle because of the geological activity. Anchor #3 is now buried under 200 feet of obsidian and several gates have had to become completely mobile. But my children persevere; their wings bear them to new holds and their airships carry their livelihoods with them. Their bolt-hole here on the first moon provides sanctuary as they move their pieces about, surviving, struggling, overcoming.

Some demon-god thing calling itself Axerus tries to whisper to my mind and my unhatched child, it is of little concern and he is a foolish creature, even by the standards of divinity. He mistakes me for a god and cannot tell my erstwhile lover from his scaly brethren. It is pleasing to know that the befuddling magic we crafted together works so well, but being on a god's radar is always a hassle.

Calculatrix is being disrupted by the current medium. When asked to determine the probability of someone unleashing the destroyer it chokes on an irreconcilable equation. It repeats something about the stable temporal instability of deterministic fractal fallacies, or outputs sheet music with song lyrics. Either it's all the reality-warping divine magic being thrown around or the giant magic sword is a particularly complicated construct of magic and starmetal.

I am finding some catchy tunes, though.

(ooc: I'm rolling a particularly dire munchkin wizard build in a lunar dragon chassis. Full backstory is irrelevant, but she doesn't care to actually become divinity, "too bound by their portfolios and their nature" she says.)

Oh joy, an alignment question.

Okay, first, "Always evil" doesn't mean "always". Even DEMONS turn good, they're just one in a hojillion billion trillion. Super-duper-mega rare. So, non-concept creatures who are theoretically just folk like everyone else, they should be free to be good or evil or whatever, even if their entry says something like, "usually evil", right?

No. Or yes. The truth is it's the GM's call, alignment is a simplifier. Here in the real world we have our morality arguments and our question of whether evil even *exists* but fantasy worlds where your elf wizard hurls fireballs are all about SIMPLE. Evil things are evil, good things are good, adventure is adventure. Most folk like it that way, it's clean, it's fun, it doesn't require the headache of looking at an unarmed man being gunned down by another man and ask the question, "yeah, but the unarmed man may have thrown the first punch, so what's the moral punishment/response here?"

But you want more, you don't want a dark lord who is evil for evil's sake or a mongrel race that is both horrible and deserves to be horrible and deserves to be punished for being horrible. I can dig it, that means you gotta hammer out, one way another, whether you and the GM are on the same wavelength regarding whence evil. Maybe a village of orc kids is evil by being evil, maybe they can be saved, maybe hamstringing yourself trying to save them will make trouble and killing them (or simply leaving them to die) is the "necessary act of an all-too mortal champion of light" or a heinous act of evil that causes a fall.

BUT! The rules are pretty clear that if there is a crunch-factor, game-mechanics repercussion for making the wrong choice (paladin falling, for example) the GM should not only answer any prayers for guidance but drop hints unbidden as to what the "right" or "lawful good" course of action is supposed to be. This is part of that "hammering out" process I mentioned above.

In the "lite" version of the rules, orcs are evil, they're all gonna be evil, killing them or driving them from their village and into the wilderness is simply dealing with an infestation, just as you might deal with a nest of rats or an infestation of feral hogs. Gotta keep their numbers down or they'll strip the land bare.

In a heavier version, other things happen.

Does that answer make sense? I don't always explain things well...

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