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Marroar Gellantara wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Really, party synergy plays a big part.
How so? What are their synergistic differences?

One is a necessity, one is an enjoyable luxury.

You HAVE to have a fighter in the party to play tank, if you already have one or two of those you can spend a party slot on the guy who's only decent at fighting but has cute special abilities that are cool and occasionally really useful.

I mean, as a rule you need a tank (martial class) a caster (arcane class) a healer (divine class) and maybe (but only maybe) a Skill-monkey (rogue-ly-type). Now obviously some of you are already composing angry posts explaining how people can make ANY party work and your party of all wizards was the most fun you ever had and in fact, my party of all wizards was some of the most fun *I* ever had. But as a general power issue you gotta have one of each, that's how the system works. Any other party is using hacks and workarounds to shore up the gap left by not having at least 1 of each.

If you have more than 2 of any of those they start stepping on each other's lines and you would be better served branching out with the crossover and "extra" classes like bard, or one of those classes but with a strong RP focus in another direction (like the druid add to the party with a cleric or the archery specialist to the party with a melee tank monster). If you have 3 clerics all trying to buff the fighter they rapidly run out of spells that stack, and are suddenly looking for other things to do. Only 1 rogue can pick the lock on a door at a time. 3 melee fighters are great if the party's surrounded, but generally it's all 3 guys jockeying for a position to actually hit the enemy and wishing to heck there was another cleric because the monster's damage field is hurting them all and the party cleric can only heal 1 dude a round. Not to mention the glory dilution. "Hey you did a good job holding back that Abyssal Horror while the rogue and wizard cracked open the portal we could escape through, you're a great team member and a stalwart defender," seems a little less cool when it's spread out across 3 of you.

So you take Bard, which has buffs that other classes don't get. Or Druid, so even though you're another fighty-casty dude you're all about nature and the wisdom of the trees. Or you take Monk because you're not the Greatest Warrior but you're blazing fast, silent as a cat, and can break out of any evil villains evil gulag because taking away your sword makes you stronger.

And in this particular case, the question is, "do we have enough archers to shoot down flyers?"

Also, didn't we discover that a mutagen warrior can't actually fly because his caster level is effectively zero?

Ascalaphus wrote:

When you wanna make constructs, the cleric spell list is really quite good. Wizards lack some of the key spells like Animate Object. Not insurmountable, but it does give the clerics an edge. Also, clerics knowing all the spells on their list also helps them with creating items.

Obviously wizard magic is powerful and should radically change society. I just think clerical magic would change it even more. It's hard to ignore people who can raise you from the dead and who have insider knowledge about the ultimate fate of your soul. Take the power that the Church had in our history and multiply that because they can easily prove what they're preaching.

No doubt, clerics would never be ignored. But in terms of permanent magic I was thinking of Permanency and Teleport Circle as the two biggies a cleric has trouble with.

"Insider info" is less relevant, since we already have that (as long as you believe) here IRL, and the fluff text is less clear on how useful or clear post-mortem witness testimony is, and we actually have those TOO, (again, if you believe).

Resurrection is harder to track, since the dead coming back to life only matters on a macro scale if the person matters. If Napoleon had been brought back, for example, he'd still be living in exile and possibly getting dosed with arsenic. If Alexander the Great had been magically cured/regenerated before he died of some swamp fever he'd still be a living god conquering everything he laid eyes on, or just as easily he'd get himself killed again because he was always leading from the front and starting to get old enough feel it. Anyone less important than the rulers and lords would be too cheap of a life to bring back in the first place.

Also, resurrection isn't immortality, that's a 20th level feat. So we don't have to worry about the grim specter of an undying tyrant-class.oh wait we have undeath, bring on the necrocracy and the horror of knowing you'll never advance socially because your "betters" will never die and leave you to inherit. I'm told the movie "In Time" explores the social ramifications of monetized immortality, it's not pretty.

But there's no doubt they'd ALL be beholden to the ecclesiarchy or whatever religion kept picking them up when they fell. The church would be the state in rapid order (because why settle for ruling a king when you can BE king?) and once theocracy was established, expensive healing would only happen for the rich and powerful.

Really, it would probably retard social growth as things like the Mask of the Red Death would no longer be an issue, disease curing would be one more thing you could buy to keep yourself apart from the plebs.

Then there's stuff we still argue historically. What is more important to a strong nation: Railroads (teleportation) or Tanks (Animated Objects)? One makes you powerful on the battlefield, one makes interlocked industries happen. How big a deal to population growth is medicine vs. food production? How much of the gun's military paradigm-shift was its power and how much was the simplicity of its use in the hands of otherwise-untrained conscripts? Archers were powerful, but archers took years to train while gunners took months.

And when you can replace your illiterate conscripts with mindless undead, do you just win?

All of the above is why I don't chide Paizo too much for its Medieval Stasis. When you can rationalize lots of different cultural reactions to a thing, the question becomes what reaction you WANT for storytelling reasons.

And as long as we're asking the question, "what happens in a world where arcane magic is denied?" One of the answers is, "in the spiritual arms race between deities, gods start granting new spells to their clerics."

Maybe clerics get fireball, the better to burn the heathens.

Ascalaphus wrote:

What LazarX said; most of the setting is trying very hard to pretend all this magic isn't really happening. Society is mostly medieval, curiously so in fact; Golarion's been stuck in medieval stasis for thousands of years. I mean, a very generous historian will give you the European middle ages as lasting about 300-1800; Golarion's been there for about five thousand years.

I think divine magic might actually have a much higher impact on society. Healing magic has a huge impact on the lives of ordinary people. Resurrecting magic has enormous implications for politics, such as royal succession.

And a world where the only way to get magic is to practice a religion means there is little room for secularism. In the Magic = technology dynamic the only sources of power are the few places that dip their toes in the renaissance and religious groups. This would probably lead to more holy wars and inquisitions, since religions would gravitate towards controlling everything and would not want opposition or upstarts having the power to threaten their hegemony.

As for the spell listings, the main problem is that divine vs. arcane has a pretty heavy crossover. There are several arcane healers now and clerics have a lot of domains.

Of course when you mention Golarion's medieval stasis you delineate the general problem with magic and metagame, Resurrection should have ALREADY altered succession and punched politics in the face, and that's just for starters.

Also, to be honest, wizards have more in the way of spells that are useful outside of combat. I mean they don't have the cure and restore spells, but things like haste, fabricate, permanency, enlarge person; wizards seem to have more stuff that people would find useful in work and life. Clerics have better combat buffs, but nobody cares in peacetime. Clerics have better healing, but life is cheap and peasants are replaceable. Obviously that last one isn't very egalitarian, but that's a different paradigm. Also, a cleric can get just about any spell on the wizard list if he finds the right domain, so "wizards have an edge" can certainly be overcome.

But when I enjoy my little "Simcity: Pathfinder" mental exercises I find that the main force is item creation feats. The greatest, most mythic wizard alive can still only move a few tons of rock in a day. A teleportation network and a few constructs can move thousands. Like the real world and technology, it's all about tools you can keep using and the ability to get lots of people to work on the same project with minimal training. Industrialization was as much about teaching masses of people to read directions and do a wide variety of simple and standardized tasks (rather than be lifetime-trained artisans of one particular complex task) as it was harnessing steam power.

Wizards have the edge here, since they get bonus feats and a higher int (spellcraft) but clerics can catch up when it comes to it, and some of the best toys (demiplanes, enslaved outsiders, divination magic) are as good or better for Clerics.

Twilight and Tarder Sauce.

Silus wrote:

Ok, working on the Drow, here's what we have so far:

Ability Score Racial Traits: Drow are naturally quick and unusually charming for being so mad, but their devotion to the sciences has begun to play merry hell on their health as a race. They gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma and -2 Constitution.
Type: Drow are Humanoid creatures with the Elf subtype.
Size: Drow are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base Speed: Drow have a base speed of 30ft.
Skill Bonus: Drow are, as a race, devoted to science and medicine. They receive a +2 bonus to Craft (Alchemy) and Heal, and Heal is always a class skill for Drow.
Darkvision: Drow have Darkvision of 120ft
Elven Immunities: Drow are immune to magic sleep effects and gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws made against enchantment spells and effects.
Elven Magic: Drow gain a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, they also receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
Poison Use: Drow are skilled with poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying it to weapons.
Languages: Drow begin play speaking Common and Undercommon. Drow with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Gnome, Laquetan, Harpy and Centaur.

Base Drow have a secret sign language that they developed to secretly communicate with each other without making predator-attracting noise or giving away their nature to the surfacers when on extended recon.

Since the CK-class restructuring, they've mostly abandoned state secrets and ambush hunting for Mad Science and publishing. So it seems like a section of their populace would use a version of Laquetan as mutated and twisted as their most egregious biological experiments to "tech-speak" to one another. Like 1337-speak but less annoying and adolescent.

Don't know much about the parody nation, but in terms of keeping them from being conquered by their more Darwinian neighbors I suggest the old "crouching moron, hidden badass" play. Aside from being surprisingly good at insurgency, they are a neutral ground between two expansionist powers that don't *really* want to go to war with one another.

So diplomats and ambassadors deal with their idiocy, each trying to maintain an upper-hand in the influence game over monarchy that may or may not be as confused and foolish as they seem.

Just like Lord Shojo's play.

Probably because inflict is a bad spell.

Well okay, not BAD per se, but suboptimal. The majority of those non-inflict classes can deal damage better with other actions/spells.

Inflict generally only sees use as "healing undead" which implies "being evil." Further, current spell-patterns say that unintelligent undead are usually too expendable to waste time repairing them and intelligent undead are pretty much cleric-only.

Goth Guru wrote:
Any extras like multiattack will require feats or a class like ranger or Monk.

Well yeah, obviously.

Silus wrote:

Anyone else considered what a war between the Kamakiri, the Texhutu, the Formian and the Thriae would be like?

So. Many. Bugs.

Then some human troopers with a penchant for fascist militarism jump out of their Starships and *is struck down by the gods of taste*

Yes, force immunity. A hilariously paradigm-shifting ability which I highly approve of.

Oh, what's recovery? I couldn't find it in the SRD.

Also, does Vorpal count as a "Death effect"? It's a minor thing, but it seems like it would be real annoying if the PC lucky-crit the monster in round 1 and chopped it's giant head off.

Or awesome, it's a blurry line between the two.

To be honest, I have literally never had a character be at WBL unless he was starting fresh with appropriate-priced gear.

I've also never played a campaign where the Magic Mart existed. If there was a shop, it was a big city and a very SMALL shop which *might* do commission crafting if you were willing to wait and the stuff was fairly low-level.

Alternate viewpoint to CLW wands: A deluxe, military-spec medical kit has some of the best drugs, tools, antiseptics, and sterile bandages modern technology can produce. We have magic ampuoles of mysterious liquid that make pain just go away entirely or tell a stopped heart to start beating again. If the wealth of a force can afford magical first aid kits it makes sense they'd be packing one when they went out on patrol to protect the clan warrens and the lair of Torg, the Kobold King.

At Resist 30, if he went for a swim in lava he'd be taking about 40 points of fire damage a round (average rolls) so he probably doesn't do that.

I still think he should be smart, because I like those switch-hitter Kaiju that are sometimes villain, sometimes hero like Godzilla, Gamera, and the like.

I can't think of anything else relevant. I like that he has the best protection (short of an anti-magic field) you can find against Trap the Soul.

How about the surgeon?

Make a rogue archetype or rogue-like class that heals based on skill but can produce supernatural curative effects. He still gets sneak attack because he's DOCTOR and know how to dole out the harshness. He has skill ranks to use the Heal Skill. He has bonuses to make his heal checks better because he's a DOCTOR.

Among other things, it upgrade the rogue, generally-accepted to be the weakest class.

Goth Guru wrote:

Using the item presented, how about it heals the wearer's level in points. It replenishes during sleep or meditation, only once in a day(24 hours normally). To make it easy to add to an amulet, make it a magic chain, attachable to any medallion or amulet. I'm a big fan of augment items.

Also, consider eliminating the ability items entirely. Lots of good topics on that. I've got a nice ritual that burns such items putting their power into the characters bodies permanently. You could just offer characters a + to a stat, +1 deflection, or hit/damage every other level. The cloak of charisma is a worse cliche than the wand of CLW.

I always liked this one. Really went well with my Ascetic characters. It doesn't make a lot of sense to be all, "I perfect myself rather than rely on crutches like the comforts of society or the strength of fallible armor" and then collect shiny magic rings, bracelets, swords, etc to boost yourself up.

Not to mention it lets me hug my children with my green, glowing nuclear arms.

I'm intimidated by the complexity that adds to a fight but intoxicated by the sheer chaos of it. Rock on with it.

What of wands and staffs? Or do we assume they won't be punching through his SR so we don't care?

Isn't that eight?

As far as I know, the only real concern is multiattack. Doesn't matter that their little claws can't hold weapons, they still end up with the ability to get 4 attacks (2 arms with natural claw attacks, 2 arms with any regular PC attack) which (according to Paizo balancing theorycraft) is a hefty and expensive 8 RP. You could specify that they can't take multidexterity and multiattack because of something and thingy (Possibly "they lack the mental agility necessary to use both sets of limbs at the same time") but at that point we're getting awfully complicated.

Alternatively, you can just let 'em be a bit more powerful. I like the 4-armed monk or the gundancer who dual-wields pistols while claw-smacking enemies. It's cool and thematic and the best exploit of multiple arms is the sneak-attacker; rogues need all the help they can get as it is.

I don't think that makes a difference as long as they're usable for attacks. I mean, a Kamakiri with 2 weapons could still roll the claw/claw/weapon/weapon fighting style, and it's the combat that they tend to care about in the rules. And thematically, you want them to have big mantis-claws (because that is generally how you define them as "mantis-like") and real hands (because intelligent tool-users need thumbs).

Not to mention Trox Grappling appendages or the like are pretty expensive too.

I'm still not sure how they eat. My first thought is that their adorable porcelain-doll mask hides far less-pretty insect mandibles under their chin.

I assume they have a home-brew feat that allows them to substitute verbal components with sign language.

Cute pic, judging just from the look you'd end up with a lot of the following traits:
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (3 rp) (can't do vermin and aberration seems a bit harsh)
Size: Medium (0 rp)
Abilities: hard to say, I'd go with lower dex because they're all chitin-covered and stiff.
Language: Kamakiri sign, common (cannot speak) (0 rp)
Natural armor +1 (or more) (2 rp or more)
Insect Empathy: Can treat vermin of the insect or Arachnid subtype as animals for the purposes of Handle Animal and Wild Empathy (1 rp?)
Multi-Armed: (8 rp) This is the expensive part
Claws: (2 rp)
Maybe sunlight vulnerability? There really aren't enough negative RP traits in the ARG. Ya know?

DominusMegadeus wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
At least the clerics don't get claws as their domain ability in a kajillion slots like sorcerers do, and when they do they have a 3/4 BAB so they can be built to get some use out of it.
I dont get it either, but those claws are very popular. To each their own.
Same here, I dislike the mediocrity of sorc. claw attacks for most bloodlines, but people have made builds for it and all, I'm sure. I'll stick to the stuff that's, you know, actually magical.

Claws can be thematic, I would love them as a cute little RP extra. But yeah, power-wise they are useless.

The magic can tell the difference between outside air and inside air. Air inside the body (defined as "when it would hurt ye") doesn't do anything with that spell because it's inside the body. Just like how a necklace of adaptation creates a field of air around you but the field is so thin and skin-tight no one else can breathe from it and it doesn't disperse in a hard vacuum.

Blood that flows but also glues things down? Magic. An outside layer forms, but the inside layer keeps going just like the lava at pompeii.

Problem solved?

Edit: also, you don't quote relevant rules. All the problems you bring up deal with real-world biology and physics, which you already established you are perfectly willing to ignore with a lot of other spells.

Already got that in the breath weapon.

And it isn't really specific to magic items. Like having your +5 sword become a +2 vampiric sword. Or a +1 shocking burst club.

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Let's see, Imma try and think from a power munchkin's persepctive...

I don't know what recovery is.

It's AC is bad. I mean 46 is okay for a CR 26 but a proper-built martial should have a +36 on her primary attack BEFORE the incidentals and temporary buffs. Dropping it by 20 is saying, "please hit me I'm easy." And it's touch AC is laughable, which is problematic when the rapid-fire guns come out. It should have a magical deflection field.

Likewise, a spell resistance of 10 is saying, "all spells welcome here." Which brings us to the too-short list of immunities; I can polymorph it, poison it, bleed it, turn it to stone, or (most likely of all) hollow out its mind and move on in. Make way for Jerkface PC the unstoppable Kaiju Menace! I am the magic-eating god-king! Repeated applications of lava bombs will also destroy it fairly easily despite the fact that it lives in a magic volcano.

All of the above brings me around to it's whole burrow-charge up-assault thing. It absorbs mana, it should absorb it all. It's spell resistance should be at full power when it's out and about because it's hungry for magic energy. It should absorb spells (either because they don't beat SR or a % chance like the Tarrasque) thrown at it and use them to power it's magical deflection field for 1 round. Also if you're married to the AC-or-SR idea the numbers should only shift by 10.

Magic Cysts: good clean (filthy) fun

Being smart is good since it means the beast is tactical. It does NOT mean it has to threaten cities, since it could just as easily be a giant lava-dwelling buddha. It is fed and nourished by the purple glowing volcano of magical doom, after all, what need has it for your cold and barren cities of non-apocalyptic energy? It only strikes out when things trouble it, or when it is needed*.

More unique abilities? It's constant feed-and-excrete energy deal says "make more magic trouble" to me. Magic items have to roll a will save or randomly be powered-up/powered down, casters have to make a (let's say DC 25) caster-level check or deal with a wild surge. Gonna have to make up rules for those, of course.

Being intelligent and magically-empowered, it might toss Disjunctions as a spell-like ability from time to time. Sometimes threatening a PC's stuff is more effective than threatening their life.

Since it can't fly, and that's a can of worms not worth opening, give it some sort of "rooted to the earth and the leylines" ability where it cannot be lifted, moved, tripped, or the like unless the one hitting it is mythic.

Weather Control is kinda nice and can be thematic, while we're at it.

Since I'm making Godzilla references, anything that can hear it's roar IMMEDIATELY knows exactly what that roar is ("It is The Unmaker! Run for your lives!") and must make a save vs. fear effect (DC...34?) or be panicked.

Edit: Thought of this 3 times and kept forgetting to type it in while looking at other stuff: SOUL SIGHT. It sees living creatures, no matter where they are and no matter what they hide behind because it's connection to magic the flow of the energy of the world let it. Undead creatures are likewise entirely too visible, their unnatural existence being an obvious wound in the web of life and death. Its senses can only be blinded to robots and constructs, because they are disconnected from "normal" living and unliving things. There is much philosophical discussion as to what this means, but to date the best authority on the subject, Agranor, remains silent.

*God(zilla) works in mysterious ways

Oh Gold Digger, so bad yet I can't stop reading it...

deusvult wrote:
boring7 wrote:

The Mimic only gets a grapple if IT hits YOU.

Not true.

Mimic's Adhesive Ability wrote:

A weapon that strikes an adhesive-coated mimic is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC 17 Reflex save. A successful DC 17 Strength check is needed to pry off a stuck weapon.
So, if you would or would not let someone drag a mimic around by the hilt of your sword, then you should or should not let someone drag a stickyblooded spell recipient.

I thought that was already obvious, it wouldn't. The only mention of grapple in the Mimic's ability description is that it gets a grapple automatically if it hits something. Not if you hit it.

If memory serves, "counter and dispel" is different from "Counter" and "Dispel". It means both spells stop working.

If you cast YOUR spell again, it works normally.

Now the rules don't have a specific commentary or FAQ on what happens if you have one Deeper Darkness spell and 10 Continual Flame Torches that are already out and glowing. I'd probably go with "one gets snuffed" but it's also entirely within the rules to say "every one that's in line-of-effect gets snuffed" or even "every single one gets snuffed until the darkness spell ends."

deusvult wrote:

How would you resolve the questions in the OP if instead of the spell, the sticky thing in question was a mimic?

Then apply the same answers to a wizard with the spell. It's almost the exact same wording as the adhesive ability.

It's the same. The Mimic only gets a grapple if IT hits YOU. Since a wizard isn't going to purposely coat himself with his own blood and then punch you to start a grapple, it is unlikely to come up.

Moving further down the track, to the best of my knowledge (haven't checked the FAQ) no ability that works on weapons works on natural attacks unless it very specifically says so. You can't disarm or sunder a claw or a monk's fists because Game Rules and Ew Factor. This continues on to sticky blood trying to glue down your fists or tentacles (damn creepy little gnome summoners).

Darkness itself is the problem.

Darkness (more accurately "dimness" since there's still light around after you cast it) spells are nearly useless because they don't make things much darker and when they actually work any critter that isn't part of a very specific subset of critters is just as blind. If it's dark enough to blind the torch-bearer, he can snuff his torch and make it dark enough to blind the darkvision-critter unless it's a devil or something similar. I don't know your adventure path, maybe everything IS a devil or something similar.

In my experience magic darkness is how you run away or spend an inordinate amount of time fumbling around trying to hit the players while they try to hit you in a very long, boring, pointless fight.

Deeper Darkness counters and dispels any light spell of 3rd level, including a heightened-to-3 continual flame, so that's an at-will ability that costs the party 50 gold per torch snuffed. Hit and run attacks on the light can get costly. And as a rule, PCs fear damage to their wallets more than damage to their persons. Then again I've never been in a campaign where the party actually reached the WBL chart, so maybe my experiences are different than yours.

I mean, if you want "the primal horror of the dark" you don't want a critter, you want some sort of has-no-statblock force that just damages people in the dark. You don't want them to HAVE an enemy to fight and kill, you want something that doesn't entirely exist.

Kazaan wrote:
...A feat, for instance, may turn a Longsword from a Slashing weapon into a Piercing or Bludgeoning weapon temporarily, but that doesn't suddenly make its Blackblade quality "turn off" because it no longer meets the requirements...

Wait, when did we establish this?

And really, that's just as good for your gunblade-wielding Elric.

Time stop is useful if you have a large supply of gunpowder and a way to set it off at range.

The Xixchil of spelljammer were a mantis-like race. They specialized in body mods, but since Drow do that they should do something else. Cribbing from someone else' work, we have...

Kamakiri Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
Size: Medium
Base land speed: 30 feet.
Compound Eyes: Darkvision out to 60 ft., +2 perception
Racial Skills: Linguistics and Handle Animal are always class skills for Kamakiri, +2 to Linguistics and Handle Animal
Kamakiri treat all creatures with the Vermin type as animals for the purposes of Handle Animal checks to train them.
Chitin: +2 natural armor.
Natural Weapons: Claws (1d6)
Radiation Resistance: Kamakiri treat any form of radiation as one step lower for the purposes of save DCs and damage done.

Automatic Languages: Common (cannot speak), Xixchil sign language.

The Kamakiri are medium-sized insects with 2 legs and 4 arms. Their primary arms are bladed claws good for little more than combat. But their secondary arms are capable of finer manipulations and work that would require hands. Most lack the mental dexterity to use all four arms in combat, but some have been known to make terrifying dervishes on the battlefield.

The Kamakiri arose from the ashes of the same conflict which created the Poisoned Lands. Whether they are uplifted insects or a formerly humanoid race warped beyond measure is a matter they do not discuss with outsiders. They possess a special empathy with insects and arachnids, taming and domesticating the mutated and giant vermin to serve as livestock and beasts of burden. Their specially-bred wasps and giant silkworms produce valuable exports of paper and silk, and their specially-bred aphid colonies produce alchemical reagents and compounds from their modified digestive processes.

Thoughts on Agranor: Variable AC is troublesome, since it means keeping track of more numbers in a fight or rolling more dice. A straight miss chance based on dimensional warping (with perhaps the possibility of throwing the attack back) might work better.

I assume the force damage is natural attacks encased in (or made of) magical force-field effects.

Make it like a force dragon, immune to force effects because screw your Magic Missile and Explosive Runes.

Is Warden Ingrid Hale evil? Also, is she hot?

In most cases a thing that is two things counts as both things.

An axe musket is an axe and a musket. You can slash one-handed or shoot two-handed.

RAW does not specify this (or specifically deny it) because Paizo wanted to make the Axe Musket but didn't want to put a lot of time into coming up with all the different FAQs and permutations of how that should suss out. Like dealing with the giant mess that is Summoner, they have other things they'd rather be doing.

You could make it colossal if you wanted to and still be permanently big, but I'm assuming your Animate Objects capabilities cap at Gargantuan.

Riding any creature has specific rules, and Animated Objects are not mount-trained, though I'm pretty sure huge or larger mounts count different for medium critters.

Of course dispel magic can take out both the animation magic AND the polymorph spell.

And animate objects is 1 round per level, so I assume you're dropping a permanency on the statue?

Finally, in terms of mobility, if I have an animated object I tend to prefer vehicles. A wagon or a boat which can fly and/or drive itself is lower-key and doesn't lend itself toward making the mistake of thinking it's any good in a fight.

But it's really a question of style.

It makes a little more sense from the perspective of metamagic. Energy admixture was something like +3 to spell level to make your level 1 fire ray spell do half fire, half cold. Searing light, being pure holy damage (no resistance) is 3rd level.

Flame strike, similarly, is basically a fireball, but half its damage can't be blocked.

But no, Clerics don't get a lot of 'splodey spells.

Of course, clerics have domains, and I think there's a feat that lets them prep extra copies of those domain spells.

SAMAS wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Raltus wrote:

Exactly we are thinking either magical or with in the confines of our own (edison sorta) electrical system.

Look at Alkenstar they would be a huge place to develop solar panels and wind turbines, hell their entire machine works for their factories could be 100% natural energy powered, since magic tends to be more of a bother than anything.

Well, that's the thing I was talking about above: Why HASN'T Alkenstar done this? My take on it is that the same phenomenon that makes magic unreliable to unusable in their part of the world (Mana Wastes) also hoses "mundane" electricity. Thus, the Mana Wastes are equivocal towards the development of technology: They confer great desire, but trip it up in performance(*).

(*) To paraphrase Shakespeare.

Or, more likely, they haven't yet figured that Electricity = Power.

Or how to make photovoltaic cells, or mass-produce giant mirrors and keep them clean, or have such a need for power that they have to explore methods outside of burning stuff.

Scavion wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Yeah the Cleric list is rather dull. You'd think being a servant of the gods would atleast let you call down some lightning to smite a heretic.
Yeah, no such spells like HOLY SMITE, or Flame Strike or STORM OF VENGEANCE or STORMBOLTS or JOLTING PORTENT or...
Oh man all 4th level or higher. -_- Much excitement.

As opposed to 3rd level? Because if it ain't on par with fireball it ain't a smitey, 'splodey spell.

I mean, we might as well count Sound Burst.

Up to 100 cubic feet per caster level.

Whether you are using a Wall of Iron or a tiny little chunk of iron, because Polymorph Any Object doesn't care about size of source material except in regards to spell duration.

Going further, if you're shaping the original volume of the wall via any means (and we assume a caster level of 20 because the math has too many permutations) we get 166.7 cubic feet of Iron in any shape you want.

Moving further, the human body is (for simplicity) 3 cubic feet, so to be 166 cubic feet your statue would be 55 times the volume of a human statue, Cube-root of 55 is 3.8(ish), times 6 foot tall = a 23 foot tall statue of a humanoid of solid iron.

Then someone points out hollowing it out for more space, the square-cube law as it pertains to structural engineering, and I tell you to just use the stats from the statue of liberty and ignore the difference between copper and iron.

Noble. He's going to be an NPC, and needs the money to pay his troops.


Okay, when magic's in the mix it's always magic. Because magic as a force is like technology, superior tech wins wars, forges empires, and slaughters millions. A small army with magical tanks beats a large army with cavalry. A small army with air power beats a large army stuck on the ground. A small army with longer range artillery beats a large army with nothing but catapults. A small army with reliable fortifications and clean water beats a large army with dysentery and besieging.

But magic's tricky, a lotta folk hate it for a lotta reasons (both the fictional soldiers and members of this very community), and the plays are just as good whether the magic user is a minion or calling the shots.

And that's the thing, As Marcryser said the general is going to be giving commands, not doing the job. And know what commands need to be given and getting people to follow those potentially-lethal commands is charisma, so you find yourself with bard or rogue or expert, with the ranks and the charisma to do that job.

But RP is a funny thing. Sure the RAW says that a bard makes a DC50 Diplomancy check and turns the army from indifferent to fanatically and suicidally devoted, but if the DM doesn't GIVE you that check "unless the soldiers trust you as one of them," you're SOL without a fighter, barbarian, or at least a Paladin to do the talking.

Personally, when I think "monk" the first things I think of are "Doesn't need stuff" (doesn't need armor or weapons) and "moves really fast."

This tends to rub up against the fact that the Monk is not a straight martial class, and therefore flails and fails when compared to a fighter or barbarian. Also the monk's efforts to do without tools forces it to rely on multiple ability scores, which it probably won't have.

A second pass reminds us of all the OTHER monk abilities, like skill points, evasion, those weird spell-like incidentals that you never actually USE because the campaign spends more of its time in levels 3-7 before disintegrating or rapidly finishing the Adventure Path. I like these abilities but damned if they ever actually see the light of day.

I'm guessing OP just wants a monk with Rage. And every option that includes rage and most of what he wants either doesn't include ENOUGH of what s/he wants, or includes a bunch of crap s/he doesn't care about like "drink booze a lot for abilities, LOL."

I have mixed feelings bout the Drunken Master, so I can see why some might just hate it.

Raltus wrote:

Exactly we are thinking either magical or with in the confines of our own (edison sorta) electrical system.

Look at Alkenstar they would be a huge place to develop solar panels and wind turbines, hell their entire machine works for their factories could be 100% natural energy powered, since magic tends to be more of a bother than anything.

That's still within the Edison-sorta system.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.


Travel to Aballon, steal some solar panels from the robot hordes.

The various variants of slave-critters, from shocker lizards to undead on a treadmill to elementals.

Expanding on solar, the Continual Flame spell can be cast a whole lot of times, and concentrated with mirrors, making the entire endeavor a lot more compact than real-world solar farms which require vast flat areas of paneling or mirrors to collect enough light.

Lightning capture is actually viable if lightning happens often enough. A box canyon with semi-permanent lightning storms (generated by control weather effects) can just keep the power generating.

More than once I've run across permanent heat generators (usually magical fires of some sort) that I contemplated finding a way to exploit.

sunshadow21 wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
He said his problem was a lack of flavorful spells.
That right there is my biggest qualm with the list. Too many flavorful spells are absolutely not worth bothering with ever for a wide variety of reasons, and everyone ends up using the same mostly boring spells despite supposedly following different gods and beliefs. Power isn't an issue with a cleric, supporting any kind of rp or fluff through actual spells or class abilities is. Tack on the use of this same list for oracles, and the problem is amplified even more.

Which spells are both flavorful and good on the Wizard list? I mean, off the top of my head the most weird or flavorful spells are generally pretty bad in terms of usefulness.

Moving on, there have been plenty of times my wizard wished he had access to those charming little cleric spells that do things my wizard list just can't. Of course that's because I'm a transmuter and I focus on support casting, and when you're doing good-touch casting it's often about what stacks and what doesn't. Really, 'splodey-caster is more of a Sorceror Idiom anyway, even if they only get 1 more spell per day. But let's not get TOO tangential. I was looking at mythic spells recently and discovered quite a few that were very interesting and NOT available to wizard.

For *interesting* spells, wizard (and I think witch, though I haven't played one yet) has more weird stuff that ended up crawling into the lore and list over the decades of D&D magic. Of course most of that junk is USELESS or also available to other classes. Create demiplane, for example. Miracle, as another example, is both better and worse than Wish, since it costs nothing, has less solid limitations, but can be nixed at any time by the DMyour diety.

Then there's bad touch. A Cleric has a LOT of nasty "hurt you" spells that are touch-range. Many of them are NOT on the Wizard list and really nasty, but they are single-target bad-touches instead of ranged and/or multi-target.

And then there's commune. Contact other Plane basically eats a wizard's brain in exchange for unreliable information, Commune costs a little upfront cash and is as solid and reliable as a divination gets.

Basically, do you like apples or oranges?

Research a new spell called "witch's crafter's fortune".

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As long as they aren't gold minors. Little Lamplight was incredibly annoying.

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"In order to hide from the city guard, I chose to disguise myself as myself."


"My disguise check is so bad, no one will believe that I'm really me."

My point was that even if you imagine that bits of it were cut off of it during whatever killed it, it's a 0th level spell to weld them back on.

A broken robot corpse could be mended back into shape, so the body being "destroyed" isn't generally an issue.

A potential issue is that a robot is many complex mechanical parts instead of one solid mass, ("It is an animated object! Singular" says Derpy the Dick-move DM) but that's getting ridiculously pedantic with flavor text and item descriptions. Not to mention it contradicts example animated objects.

Personally I prefer tables and chairs for my animated objects, or rather boats and wagons. Your average construct isn't effective in combat by the time you can make it, but it often makes an excellent tool for traveling, carrying, and looking stylish.

But that's another story.

The "logic" the DM was using is (I presume) thus: Once you chop someone's head off, cutting slices off of the neck-stump doesn't do much.

The DM was wrong, of course.

Other thoughts of tangential relevance: Technically the troll was just unconscious at 0 HP, and would have to drop to -23 to be semi-dead.

You know that sensation that's not quite a taste you get when your mouth is dry and there's electricity in the air? That sensation on your tongue after you stick it on a 9-volt battery?

A healing potion tastes like that and booze, the booze is meant to mask the first flavor, badly.

Nah, grapple rules are as good as anything, and making up a whole new system for dragging people around on a spike seems like a lot of labor for little benefit.

The main thing is that in real world (yeah yeah) harpooning and the weapon description itself, you tend to try and hook the line to something heavy as quick as you can. With a wizard on staff that's as easy as dropping a wall of stone on the chain, but I don't know any rules for when a team of centaur lancers spike a mechanical behemoth and then attach those lines to anchor points (possibly with mechanical winches) in order to lock down a critter's movement.

Of course, adventuring Wyrm Hunters work alone, so they're even more likely to be just hanging and dragging.

Hm, Stubborn nails.

Well, it's a martial-only class, half the lancer's stuff focuses on grappling giants (yikes) and you don't really get going until you're pretty high level.

Bleed damage...are constructs immune to bleed? Also basing it on Strength instead of Class level makes it front-loaded and limits alternate builds or folks with lower point buys. Also it's probably worth mentioning in the ability description whether something like fast healing or getting hit with a cure spell stops the bleeding, since the universal monster rules about bleeding say it would.

Laziness overcome, constructs are indeed immune to bleed. This probably doesn't need changing, but it's something to remember when considering power levels.

Also, grapple rules are still really weird. Like apparently if you grab someone with a mancatcher, RAW says you have to immediately pull that target towards you, even though you're wielding a reach weapon expressly to keep the target held on the end of a pole.

The rules were written, of course, with the idea of an ogre or other large creature in mind, but them's the breaks.

I hope I'm not sounding discouraging, it is late and my writing becomes more...wandering.


Dragons all skipped town or got put in the dead book, so you're left with a few sorceror lines.

Wyrm Hunter...pretty powerful. I wish I had more to say but I really can't think of anything to add or critique.

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