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Seems like a great way to get out of melee to me. If a fighter gets on you, you touch it and make a move away from him, and he can't AOO you because he's prohibited from attacking. The fact that it keeps the target from threatening squares for a round is quite nice. Touch the target, crawl through his legs while he can't attack, hide somewhere else, etc.
Laughing Touch (Sp): At 1st level, you can cause a creature to burst out laughing for 1 round as a melee touch attack. A laughing creature can only take a move action but can defend itself normally. Once a creature has been affected by laughing touch, it is immune to its effects for 24 hours. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Everything you said is true as well, but the core rules say 2 mph for boats, or 48 miles per day.
If you translate the boat movement speed in feet per round, though, to an over-water speed, then you could divide the number by ten and express it in nautical miles per hour. (knots) The unit conversion comes out very cleanly. That makes all boat speeds much higher, but also may be wind direction dependent for some vessels. Don't forget to bring your Druid. Control Weather is quite nice.
And again, that's what we did in our group's setting, which is very boat/pirate oriented.
Teleport needs 316 castings to move as much a ship...
Not if you've really capitalized on extradimensional spaces it doesn't.
Q:Yeah, but how far can you get in a month at 2 miles per hour, which is the listed speed for sailing ships?
If the scope of your campaign is a region half the size of the Mediterranean Sea, I can see vessel shipping still having some bearing on the economy.
I don't disagree with your gripe about magic item crafting, but this particular issue requires zero magic items to do if you do it properly, with that store-treasure-in-a-piece-of-cloth spell.
Again I say, this isn't actually a huge issue if you're willing to make a couple minor house rules. (we just put a border around all our islands that cuts off teleport and scry) And it may not be a huge issue at all if you're willing to promote teleport trade in your campaign.
Thing is, choosing between teleportation magic and mundane shipping is not the equivalent of choosing between Edison and Tesla. It's choosing between electricity and gas lights.
No way, dude, you're multiple orders of magnitude off. I can personally, in today's world, choose between electricity and gas lights. I can't even choose today to have my goods shipped by teleport. The closest thing is Fed Ex.
The better analogy might be choosing between hunter-gatherer jungle life and Dominos Pizza.
If your GM is allowing leadership to be crowbarred to it's ultimate extension, then get everyone to take it, and have everyone get a druid as their cohort, who also has leadership, who also has a druid cohort. Each with animal companions. Buy every single one of your cohort army an Awaken scroll, and have each of them cast it on a Roc.
When the fight starts, have every single cohort on the battlefield summon a Cyclops, who nat 20s their "experienced player" cleric. Have the air force grab each one of them that doesn't have the ability to fly, carry them 1000 feet into the air, and drop them.
I mean, it's cheesy as all get-out, but miraculously gaining the Half Fiend template for their whole party without a clear and easy path to said template itself borders on cheese. And you can bet they're doing the same sort of undead-army chain as well, so justify it that way with your GM.
Um, no. If you're going with an internally consistent world, then whichever merchant king (there's always more than one) realizes it's cheaper to transport via teleport first starts doing it, and then all the other merchant kings start doing it too, to keep up, since their margins are getting killed by the teleport guy. In the end, all the merchant kings are using sorcerers.
One way or another, they will always end up using sorcerers unless there's something peculiar about either your house rules or your campaign that prevents it.
And if you don't really care about having that in your world, then it's no big deal. Have it. There's nothing inherently wrong with all long distance trade being handled by creepy guys in robes. Just don't go trying to squeeze nonsense like boat pirates into that world, or your players are going to call you out on it.
This was my thought.
If I were you guys, I'd consider turning vampire or werewolf or something. They won't expect that.
On the flipside, here's some other advice. I'm playing in a very high level evil campaign right now, and the scariest thing we've run into so far is the group of five paladins, each of which could quick channel to heal all their allies, and each of which who had Shield Other cast on the guy to their left.
So effectively they each had double hit points, and each got more than double healing from any one of them doing an AOE lay-on-hands channel, because when I damaged one of them he'd take half, the guy to his left would take half of that, the guy to his left would take half of the remainder, etc, and one channel would wipe up almost all the damage. It was quite nice.
So yeah, do that and get a couple Holy Avengers. That will help with your lack of a caster.
I agree with all of this, particularly if your campaign doesn't feature piracy or long distance boat trade. A campaign world consisting of one large continent bound by untraveled oceans, or one that has many smaller internal bodies of water, isn't going to have long distance boat trade anyway. But that's not what the thread is about, now is it?
This thread is why anyone would use a boat to move bulk trade goods sufficiently long distances instead of teleport, and the answer clearly is "nobody would."
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I'm surprised Treasure stitching hasn't come up yet.
Ohh, nice find.
So you don't need multiple portable holes or a dinosaur, you just need a bag of holding.
I'd happily give Wally the Teleporting Wooly Mammoth two weeks paid vacation, two additional weeks sick time, and a salary better than the best craftsman in a medium sized city, in return for all the gross income of the Dutch East India Company without any of their expenses. Beats the heck out of being an unawakened wooly mammoth.
That's the great thing about tabletop gaming - if you really want to run a game of Merchant: The Accounting, you can do so. Most Pathfinder games focus on the usual cycle of find evil, kill evil, take evil's stuff, sell stuff, buy stuff, find new evil. Cornering the tea market using teleportation isn't important or relevant unless you want it to be.
Tea is just a symptom of a larger issue. Don't get stuck on the tea.
"Oh great adventurers, my name is Sorcerer Steve, and I wish to hire you to guard this treasure on its way to a far off land by boat!"
"Why don't you just teleport it there yourself?"
"That is not important or relevant!"
"Oh great adventurers, my name is Pirate Pete, and I wish you to join me in my mission to waylay a boat filled with fabulous riches on the way to Sorcerer Steve!"
"Why doesn't he just teleport his stuff around by himself?"
"That is not important or relevant!"
"Oh great adventurers, we are Pete and Steve! We wish you to join us in stealing a great artifact from Evil Eggbert!"
"Why don't you two just scry on his location, teleport to him while he's asleep, and take it yourself?"
"That is not important or relevant!"
If you're going to build a game world, and that game world is going to be immersive for your players, the game world should make sense.
Read Awaken closer. He'll serve you within reason until you cast Awaken on something else. Cut him in on the profits and he's certain to go with your operation.
Or, as I say, just use a bunch of portable holes and teleport yourself instead. The only difference between the two is whether your profits are amazing or ridiculously amazing, depending on the scenario.
GM: "Okay, you have three month's downtime. How do you spend it?"
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Lets skip China and just talk India, which is closer. That's 12,000 miles one way, by sea. At the Pathfinder listed boat speed of 2 miles per hour, that's about a 16 month round trip. So taking your analysis at face value, that single sorcerer is moving the equivalent of 16.7 carrack's worth of tea over equivalent time frames, presuming of course he only owns one portable hole. Give him something more reasonable for the operation, like say 4 portable holes, he can move more tea than a fleet of 67 boats.
So yes, he is absolutely going to monopolize the tea trade. Don't make me do an ROI calculation on that, because it's going to be laughable. Your one sorcerer is replacing not only 67 boats, but the cost to crew those boats. And yes, there are mishaps in casting, but there are also mishaps trying to navigate your fleet of 67 boats around the Cape of Good Hope, including but not limited to mermen, sea monsters, pirates, hags, and lord knows what else in a fantasy setting. Try rolling random encounters for a 16 month boat ride.
I can certainly tell you which operation I'd insure if I was Lloyd's of London.
So yes. If you want oceanic distance trade to be "a thing" in your campaign, you must nerf teleport somehow or another. Maybe you don't want it to be "a thing," and that's cool. But if your campaign has pirates, and the pirates are raiding legit trading boats, and you want your campaign's economy to make any sense whatsoever, teleport has to get houseruled or you have to adjust the overall availability of magic in a very significant way.
Relative expenses aside, a river barge floating down the Nile is actually a much better tool for trading grain than a 10th level sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole.
Sure. But a sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole, within the core rules, could transfer more tea from India to England in a year than the entire Dutch East India Company did in the same time frame.
If you want long distance trade in your game to be handled via physical means, which is paramount for any game themed around seafaring or pirates or the like, then you must nerf teleport in some way. There's no getting around it. Otherwise, nothing is transported by ship, and there's nothing to "pirate" in the first place.
I posted a link above to how my group did it. Basically we cut scry and teleport off at each continent in our world, and have storyline justifications for it. It works quite nicely, and funnels most of the inter-ocean travel back onto boats.
Boat crafting was going to be my suggestion.
Personally, I think "no taking 10" is a great house rule for all scenarios.
james loveland wrote:
I don't have the experience to set up a game with uber min/max characters... how do I convince them to make new ones?
Tell them you're going to up the CR of all encounters by +4 to compensate for their stats if they want to have stats like that.
Then if they decide that's what they want, let them have what they want.
I GM often for a party that's based on 25 point buys, which are considered "epic" or whatever. I just add the "advanced" template to literally everything they meet, and it works out okay.
Yeah, needs to be rewritten into "Stormwind format."
In our game, we houseruled the rest period to regain spells.
1 hour for levels 1-3, 3 hours for 3-6, and 6 hours for levels 7-9. Per-day abilities still reset after 24 hours. It allows us to do the healing and other stuff necessary without having to spend weeks of game time in a dungeon.
If you're not willing to houserule anything, and your group is still having problems with things like downtime healing, consider investing in some expendables such as healing wands.
Title says it all. I'm running a campaign and planning on banning Synthesist Summoners, Psionics and ACG play test classes. One player is claiming "psionics is part of lore"
If he's really claiming the 'lore' angle, then tell him you'll let him do psionics like the original 1st edition D&D rules permitted psionics.
Tell him to pick a different class, and hand him some percentile dice. If he rolls an an 00, you'll allow him to take some powers.
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
It's typically not near as bad as a well played Druid.
The only problem we have with it, is when the player wants to move 10 pieces on the board every time it's his turn to go, and it bogs the game down. Our solution, just to keep things rolling is that we only allow any player to bring one 'pet' along on dungeon crawls, and we reserve the vast army of monsters many of us have inked on our sheets to mass combat scenarios, where their contributions can be storylined by the GM.
Very interesting thread, especially once Mosaic entered it.
I ask the teachers talking here: aren't you concerned about angry Christian parents freaking out? I know I would be.
Cap. Darling wrote:
Does the wyroot coup de grace work? i always consedered the confirmation rool to be the important part of tthe text so no point back on coup de grace in my game.
By pure rule, yes, and we stick to pure rule for almost everything in our games because it makes things less argumentative. It's a goofy combo, sure, but wyroot is a goofy material to begin with.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
It's one thing to favor a certain tactic; it's another to insist that it's objectively superior to all other ways to the point of ideological imperialism, and even worse to insist that the mechanics ARE the game, and everything else is just "fluff/flavor," and the result of all this (and I'm naming only three here) is that you have endless threads on, for example, the World of Warcraft forums where people argue endlessly with each other about "this class/type of specialized class/specific feature of this class sucks/is broken/is the only way to play otherwise you're screwing yourself and your party,"...
Ahh, see, those people aren't optimizers. They are optimization sycophants, who worship the work of the truly creative people who are pioneering the process of optimization by thinking out of the box. While somewhat valuable in business, people like that can actually be a barrier to innovative thought because they presume there's only one answer to a given question.
Ever heard of anyone beating the Axis by buying battleships as UK? :) I have. True optimization is situational.
The fun in Pathfinder for me, as a self proscribed optimizer, is finding new and interesting game theory saddle points which produce effective combinations nobody has thought of before, not trumpeting the value of some other build I found on the forums brewed up by some other guy. Additional fun, for me, is in actually doing the mathematics to show what sort of ROI I'm getting from my choices. And the capstone of fun, for me, is developing a character and personality that supports that newly discovered optimization.
For example, here's one of several characters I'm playing right now in PF:
Gnome magus with a riding dog and a wyroot club sidearm. He uses the gnome alternate racial spells to get chill touch, uses the gnome alternate magus blade buffs to get Merciful and Vicious on his scimitar, and rolls five (or more) dice on swings, taking one die of subdual himself. After combat he Coup De Graces his unconscious foes (auto crit) with the club to absorb back his spent magus points. Pretty sure that little game theory saddle point doesn't show on any optimizer lists.
And then, because I'm also a roleplayer, I have brewed up an entire character history and personality to support the optimization, predicated on how the character is a necromantic nature gnome, and wyroot is a necromantic wood.
The people who really, really make the money in business are the guys who understand the process of optimization at such a fundamental level that they can see, and work out the math, on optimizing systems in new ways nobody's thought of before, and capitalize on that optimization in the marketplace.
sword n' board wrote:
In my group, one of the pcs is a paladin who uses detect evil constantly. my problem with this is that i cant have anybody to be evil without him knowing and killing him. so is there a way that i can prevent the paladin from ruining every quest with an evil person.
Make the bartender evil, but not criminal, and have the local authorities arrest the Paladin for murder when he kills the bartender.
You may hate to hear this, but start adapting your character to the encounters. Maybe a level or 2 of Alchemist could be of assistance. The party make-up is, honestly, missing the arcane caster slot.
The clear solution is find a friend who wants to play a sorcerer, and suggest he take a little known spell called "fireball."
Alternately, you could take the leadership feat and get yourself a sorcerer cohort.
Or even a hireling.
Or splash one level in an arcane class and buy a fireball wand.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
That's an interesting lineup of games (items 5-8) you've got there. I've played and enjoyed them all at least once (that being said; Titan as part of a high school class? Good luck scheduling games).
Titan has an iPad app now, with pretty good AIs. I play it on the treadmill in the gym. I can usually finish a 25 round game in about 30 or 40 minutes vs 3 AIs, which admittedly take their turns fairly fast.
If I were doing it in my own classroom setting (not the OP's one-week constraint) I'd set it up in the corner and have everyone take a turn a day.
I think I'd also add Diplomacy to the list. While not about probability, it's certainly got some fantastic game theory elements in it.
And yet, it pays the bills. There are other lessons to be learned in Pathfinder as well, lessons about cooperation and leadership and the like, but all the social skills in the universe don't amount to a hill of beans in the business environment unless you know a skill, and skills worth a heck require math, and optimization. Once you have your career figured out, there's plenty of time in your life to go back and figure out how to live an enlightening existence.
Money doesn't make you happy, but poverty sure doesn't help any.
I'll second Jaunt's comments on Satanism / etc, especially if you're in a small town environment. Angry Christians get people (like teachers) fired.
The three of us told him no, it's ours because we did the fight, he said "I'll just kill your characters off then".
You guys have a metagaming problem.
You the players shouldn't be saying anything about loot divying. Your characters need to tell his character he doesn't get any loot. If his character responds to your character "I'll just kill you off then," then your characters should respond accordingly by their alignment, possibly including sticking a sword in his character's throat.
Your GM will be fine with this, by the way.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
- I STRONGLY discourage getting involved with the "optimization" scene -
This is crap.
Most high level business jobs are about mathematical optimization methods in some form or another, and all the best optimizers I've ever met in the business world come from a gaming background.
If I were a high school teacher, I would teach a class called "Strategic Optimization Methods." Curriculum:
1) Stochastic Methods
My students would be almost guaranteed $10k additional salary compared to the baseline student.
Load up on guns, bring your friends
There was a campaign I played in for two years, once, back in 1st Edition, where the whole party died when one PC accidentally caught himself in the blast radius of his necklace of missiles. He failed his save, it failed it's save, and the whole necklace cooked off. Blew a couple city blocks of Greyhawk sky high. Like 120d6 of damage. We were well under 10th level.
It was a random encounter too.
Pretty wild way to end a campaign.