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4,439 posts (4,680 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 6 aliases.


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The Sideromancer wrote:

Pointing out there's been another thread on this

avr wrote:

Atoms might not mean hydrogen and oxygen in PF, too. Democritus' atomic theory back 2400 years or so had atoms of sharp tastes and sweet atoms, for example. Who knows what those stars are fusing?

I remember trying to put together an elemental system of magic based on the elements carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. It was fun but not hugely playable IMO.

I'm curious, why neglect brimstone (sulpher)? And more importantly, did you remember the metallic aspects of hydrogen?

CHON are the four most common elements in life. And no, I was more concerned with the aspects of hydrogen related to life or otherwise on Earth (acids/alkalis, hydrogen bonds in water, and occasional explosive combustion) rather than its state deep inside gas giants, burning in stars, or floating in thin clouds in space.


New plan. Druid as the caster, Ultimate Magic is your one book; you want the Shaping Focus feat at character level 7. You may be limited as a caster but you will be able to wild shape with the best of them. A ranger with the natural weapon style (& the guide archetype IMO) for the 1/4 class seems good. The menhir savant archetype helps your druid casting a little. The wolf domain looks good.

You'd start with ranger 2 / druid 3 which gives you 2nd level spells, BAB +4 and the first combat style feat. Assuming human again maybe

1: Power Attack
Human: Cleave
Ranger combat style: Aspect of the Beast (claws)
3: Weapon Focus (claws)
Wolf domain: Improved Trip
5: Cleaving Finish
7: Shaping Focus
9: Eldritch Claws

You claw people up, and from 7th level you can add more natural attacks to that. Eldritch Claws actually has a useful combat trick which just requires that you have 1+ stamina, not spending it, your claws are treated as cold iron for DR. You can trip enemies when you have other advantages - go with the Plant/growth subdomain if that doesn't appeal.

For something slightly different try a halfling.

1: Point Blank Shot
Ranger combat style: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
7: Shaping Focus
9: Manyshot

The idea here is that you wild shape into an air elemental and use flight and its dex bonus to pincushion your enemies with arrows. Or just the dex bonus if there's something in the skies at the time. The Eagle domain, even if you don't get a familiar, would be useful, or the Desert domain if you prefer more defence.


I just noticed above that you wanted claws. Slayers can pick up ranger combat styles which means they can get aspect of the beast. Avenger vigilantes can take the wildsoul archetype (feline) for Aspect of the Beast too. It does rule out the bard option I think.

A level of mouser swashbuckler on the slayer or vigilante side does seem like a good idea.


If your house rule extends to kineticists using paws rather than hands, an aether element kineticist (telekineticist) is a good start. At-will telekinetic invisibility, telekinetic haul if you want to steal something big, telekinetic finesse to disarm traps without using hands.

On the other side of the gestalt you want more skill points probably, full BAB and/or a good will save. A slayer fills the first two and gets more feats, plus trapfinding if desired. An archaeologist bard gets the skill points and saves, some spells, trapfinding and a few rogue talents. An avenger vigilante gets all three but doesn't get trapfinding or anything like it; it does get potentially some neat combat tricks.


If they can use spells with attack rolls then the justice judgement comes into play. Piercing judgement will help with SR. Debuffing with intimidate could maybe help save DCs, effectively?

Then there's the sanctified slayer. Studied target applies to save DCs.

A monster tactician is as good a summoner as any, better than most, and would probably be the only one to have casting endurance enough for a standard game - games where the PCs don't usually have multiple encounters in a day do exist.

This is a bit of quick analysis, I haven't tried to make a caster inquisitor.


Updated count, see my first post for score details. People really like bards.

Casters:
Arcanist 4
Bard 8
Cleric 6
Diabolist (w/no initial class mentioned) 3
Druid 10.5
Inquisitor 6
Magus 4
Oracle 19
Psion 4
Psychic 8.5
Sorcerer 16
Vitalist 1
Witch 15
Wizard 13

Melee:
Alchemist 2
Barbarian 11
Bard 3
Bloodrager 11
Brawler 3
Cavalier 7
Druid 2
Fighter 14.5
Inquisitor 9
Investigator 3
Magus 8
Monk 10.5
Occultist 1
Oracle 4
Paladin 9
Ranger 2
Rogue 5
Slayer 3
Spiritualist 1
Stalker 3
Swashbuckler 3
Vigilante 5
Warder 1
Warlord 2
Warpriest 5

Ranged:
Alchemist 3
Bard 21
Cavalier 1
Druid 2
Fighter 8
Gunslinger 3
Kineticist 14
Inquisitor 16
Magus 9
Warpriest 4
Marksman 2
Monk 6
Occultist 1
Oracle 3
Paladin 9
Ranger 19
Rogue 4
Slayer 3
Wizard 1

Support:
Alchemist 3
Bard 27.5
Cavalier 3
Cleric 5
Cryptic 2
Druid 4
Fighter 2
Inquisitor 1
Investigator 1
Mesmerist 6
Occultist 5
Oracle 3
Paladin 1
Rogue 6
Shaman 7
Skald 7.5
Summoner 2
Timethief 3
Witch 4
Wizard 2


An undine is a reasonable idea, but swim check DCs don't get high enough that their bonuses to swim will matter, especially since the storm kindler gets a swim speed equal to their land speed in vortex form (& later a swim speed equal to twice their land speed).

A sacred fist loses the free weapon focus feat and the 3rd level bonus feat, and gains improved unarmed strike. This is a net loss of one feat. They also replace the warpriests' 6th level feat which pretends they have +6 BAB and 6 fighter levels with a style feat for which they have to meet all the prereqs. This is a step down. They do gain a nerfed flurry of blows and the blessed fortitude ability, but losing sacred weapon is painful. It might not apply to an unarmed strike without a dip in monk anyway, but still.

I think the whirlwind would count as a polymorph effect to most GMs and so wouldn't combine with enlarge person anyway.

For feats you can easily get power attack and one of the styles eventually, whichever way you go. In whirlwind form a style probably won't apply or won't be very useful BTW, though you probably won't be in that form all the time in combat. As a sacred fist the penalties from flurry of blows and power attack together could easily result in the D&D monks 'flurry of misses' - consider your total attack bonus before using this.

Other ways to spend feats. The standard warpriest can pick up weapon spec. (unarmed strike) with their 6th level feat, or lunge, or another feat with a +6 BAB requirement. Favored prestige class & prestigious spellcaster might be worth considering. Given the storm kindler bonuses like seeing thru fog you might want to use a missile weapon or spell occasionally, so point blank & precise shot aren't out of the question.


By 9th level a blood kineticist has enough blood-related powers for it to be noticeable. & having the water manipulation talent has to be useful to a pirate, it's at-will control water.

A cult leader warpriest of Besmara, following something like her antipaladin code (but without the extra restrictions of an actual antipaladin), leading a small cult that either is the crew or dominates said crew might be an idea. The cult leader is a little more skilled than the usual run of warpriests, perhaps enough to make it as a captain; an inquisitor would be the next step if that's not enough.


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The data's fairly noisy CD, with the last few posts Fighters have been dethroned. Does anyone want this count to continue to be updated?

Casters:

Druid 10.5
Wizard 10
Arcanist 4
Cleric 5
Sorcerer 13
Oracle 16
Psychic 8.5
Witch 13
Bard 8
Inquisitor 6
Magus 4
Diabolist (w/no initial class mentioned) 3
Psion 4
Vitalist 1

Melee:

Magus 8
Bloodrager 11
Oracle 1
Barbarian 11
Paladin 9
Monk 10.5
Fighter 10.5
Inquisitor 9
Druid 2
Brawler 3
Ranger 2
Swashbuckler 3
Occultist 1
Warpriest 5
Rogue 1
Bard 3
Investigator 3
Stalker 3
Warlord 2
Warder 1
Vigilante 5
Alchemist 2
Slayer 2
Cavalier 2

Ranged:

Inquisitor 16
Ranger 15
Kineticist 14
Slayer 3
Oracle 3
Druid 2
Wizard 1
Alchemist 3
Rogue 1
Bard 21
Magus 7
Monk 6
Gunslinger 2
Warpriest 3
Marksman 2
Cavalier 1
Fighter 3
Occultist 1
Paladin 7

Support:

Bard 23.5
Skald 7.5
Rogue 4
Shaman 7
Summoner 2
Mesmerist 6
Alchemist 3
Druid 4
Witch 2
Inquisitor 1
Investigator 1
Occultist 5
Cleric 5
Timethief 3
Cryptic 2
Paladin 1


Atoms might not mean hydrogen and oxygen in PF, too. Democritus' atomic theory back 2400 years or so had atoms of sharp tastes and sweet atoms, for example. Who knows what those stars are fusing?

I remember trying to put together an elemental system of magic based on the elements carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. It was fun but not hugely playable IMO.


As another idea you could go for the Iron Caster. See Cartmanbeck's entry in The Guide to the Builds in the thread stickied at the top of this forum. Since you have no actual caster level, but the item mastery feats treat your BAB as their caster level, you could be the most powerful (if most limited) caster in the party. The direct opposite of the mystic theurge.


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Counting ranking 1 as 3 points, 2 as 2, 3 as 1 point, two equal thirds as .5, here are the scores so far. Honorable mentions not scored. Also adding archetypes, alternate classes & unchained classes back in to the main class.

Casters
Druid 10.5
Wizard 10
Arcanist 4
Cleric 5
Sorcerer 13
Oracle 15
Psychic 5.5
Witch 13
Bard 5
Inquisitor 6
Magus 4
Diabolist (w/no initial class mentioned) 3
Psion 2
Vitalist 1

Melee
Magus 8
Bloodrager 8
Oracle 1
Barbarian 8
Paladin 6
Monk 8.5
Fighter 10.5
Inquisitor 9
Druid 2
Brawler 3
Ranger 2
Swashbuckler 3
Occultist 1
Warpriest 5
Rogue 1
Bard 3
Investigator 3
Stalker 3
Warlord 2
Warder 1
Vigilante 5
Alchemist 2

Ranged
Inquisitor 16
Ranger 14
Kineticist 14
Slayer 3
Oracle 3
Druid 2
Wizard 1
Alchemist 3
Rogue 1
Bard 12
Magus 7
Monk 5
Gunslinger 2
Warpriest 3
Marksman 2
Cavalier 1
Fighter 3
Occultist 1
Paladin 3

Support
Bard 21.5
Skald 7.5
Rogue 4
Shaman 4
Summoner 2
Mesmerist 6
Alchemist 3
Druid 4
Witch 2
Inquisitor 1
Investigator 1
Occultist 5
Cleric 5
Timethief 3
Cryptic 2
Paladin 1


Each from 1 to 3

Casters
Druid
Wizard
Arcanist

Melee
Magus
Bloodrager
Oracle

Ranged
Inquisitor
Ranger
Kineticist

Support
- not a role I enjoy as a primary thing. Tacked on to another idea, maybe.


Fortunately or unfortunately, you do not care about the combat stamina options for any of the feats I named. They are utterly forgettable.

Since you'd want at least 2 stamina to make that combat stamina house rule fly you'd be looking at going all in on a full BAB class, and still looking forward to level 10 when you get 5 stamina. It's for a totally different character than this.

Basically, any good combat trick costs at least 2 stamina points and often 5. With a pool with a max of 2 points you could build to make an attack do an extra d6 damage once per combat, or get +1-2 AC once per combat ... it'd be a minor benefit really even if you took all full BAB classes. Half level in full BAB classes isn't much, the standard rule is BAB + Con bonus for the pool.


One additional source, huh? Let's try Heroes of the Streets for the siegebreaker fighter. It gives you some things to do in combat besides hitting the enemy. It gives them in the first couple of levels too so you can use this as your 1/4 levels class while being a full caster for the other 3/4.

That full caster wants to be a divine caster so you can cast in the full plate armor that the fighter allows. An oracle sounds good, and the stone mystery adds in and out of combat tricks (the battle mystery is better in combat but offers little out of it).

For stats you can start with a 14 charisma because you'll be bashing things around or buffing more than casting spells with a save. Maybe (as a human),

Str 15 +1@L4 +2 race = 18
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 14

Revelations might go
HD 2/Oracle 1: Shard Explosion (to stop people 5' stepping away from you, besides a little damage)
HD 4/Oracle 3: Crystal Sight (for Earth Glide, also to see through walls)
HD 9/Oracle 7: Earth Glide (because swimming through the ground is fun)
HD 14/Oracle 11: Stone Stability (get Improved & Greater Trip at once ignoring prereqs)

As an oracle you want the traits option for fate's favored & one other. For feats since you're using combat maneuvers you'll be fairly constrained, especially since the siegebreaker fighter trades out the first few. Assuming fighter levels at 1, 5, 9 etc. something like

1: Power Attack
Human: Improved Overrun
3: Charge Through
5: Improved Bull Rush
7: Greater Bull Rush
9+: free! Maybe Extra Revelation to get clobbering strike as one of these?

Besides making sure to get Divine Favor there's no required spells for this character, though I would suggest Grace when you get 2nd level spells. Otherwise you can pick whatever spells amuse you.


I don't think there's a skald archetype with a familiar at all. You'll need to spend feats instead.


You could get Spear Dancing Spiral at 4th via the combat trick rogue talent. The weapon training talent (for WF) is separate so you can get them both without some archetype. You'll need to be a half-elf with ancestral arms to get EWP at 1st, it too has a +1 BAB prereq.


Also the Imbue with Spell Ability spell.
A steelbound fighter can cast a spell up to 3rd level via their version of a black blade.

And if we've covered everything I'll be surprised.


Scrolls, UMD DC 20 + CL.
There's some cases of potions which break the rules, e.g. a potion of see invisibility.
Share Spells on a companion of various kinds.
Distant Spell Link Feat to make share spells work at Close range.
It's quite unclear whether spell effects used on a possessed target stick with the body or the mind. If the former then Marionette Possession or similar can work.
Brown fur arcanists can cast personal polymorphs on allies at touch range from level 9 IIRC.
Alchemists can use touch injection and some gloves whose name I can't remember as well as infusions to deliver personal extracts to others.
Various permanent magic items (mainly wondrous items) allow the user to polymorph, see invisibility or otherwise use a personal-range effect.


The normal druid wild shape gets to change into a plant eventually too, but beastspeak is very clear about working only with animals, as is planar wild shape. No trees need apply.

Natural spell, powerful shape & some others just specify wild shape though.


cleric wrote:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity.
ecclesitheurge wrote:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ecclesitheurge is proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but he’s not proficient with any type of armor or shield. This replaces the cleric’s weapon and armor proficiencies.

So yeah, they lose proficiency in the deities' favored weapon too.

ecclesitheurge wrote:
Bonded Holy Symbol (Su): At 3rd level, an ecclesitheurge forms a powerful bond with a holy symbol of his deity, which functions identically to a wizard’s bonded object except it can be used to cast cleric and domain spells (instead of wizard spells) and the ecclesitheurge can grant his bonded holy symbol only magic abilities appropriate for a holy symbol or a neck slot item.

They enchant a holy symbol not a weapon. But yes, if they're multiclassed, or using eldritch heritage (arcane) or something they could have it be the same item. Probably better to have two different items which you can both enchant without needing feats though.


Alignment arguments and people thinking they need to do something lawful, or evil or whatever. The main reason I don't use standard alignments (if any) in games I run - unholy blight might become demonic blight, etc. in mine.


I'll assume heroic NPC gear, 21K at level 12.

Syrmourn, NE male drow, urban primalist bloodrager (shadow bloodline) 12.

stats:
Str 10, Dex 16 +2 race +2 level +6 bloodrage=26 (28), Con 15 -2 race +1 level=14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13 +2 race=15

Shrivelblade: Attack +22/+17/+12, damage 1d4 +10 +1 fire, S, 20/x2. CMB +28 sunder (adamantine)/+32 if flanking, +26 disarm (latter provokes AoO unless flanking). 3/day sundering a weapon reduces its size by one category, Will DC 14 negates.
Backup swordbreaker: Attack +21/+16/+11, damage 1d4 +9 +1 fire, S, 20/x2. CMB +27 sunder/+31 if flanking, +25 disarm (latter provokes AoO unless flanking).

AC 26, FF 17, Touch 20, CMD 32, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge

HP: 102 (12d10 +24 Con +12 FCB)

Fort +11, Reflex +13, Will +5 (immune to sleep, +7 vs. enchantment), SR 18

Init +9 w/bloodrage, +6 w/out, Speed 40 (w/floating feather, Fly 30 (average), Fly skill +9)

Skills: Acrobatics +26, Perception +18 (low-light, darkvision 30'), a whole bunch of one-rank skills.

Feats: Eschew Materials (B), Weapon Finesse, EWP (swordbreaker dagger), Weapon Focus (same), Step Up (B), Slashing Grace (same), Dirty Fighting, Imp Sunder, Combat Reflexes (B)

Rage powers: Tor linnorm death curse (+1 fire damage, if knocked unconscious/dead slayer gets staggered & fire vulnerability, Will save DC 17 negates), lesser/normal/greater beast totem

Class abilities not otherwise noted:
Bloodrage (+6 Dex or Str or Con, darkvision 30', reduces light level 1 category, 24 rounds/day)
Restrained magic (allies get +2 to saves vs. his spells)

Spells (CL 12, concentration +14)
1 (3/day, save DC 13): Ray of enfeeblement (B), mage armor, cheetah's sprint, reduce person, blade lash (trip +36 CMB), feather fall, vanish
2 (3/day, save DC 14): Darkvision (B), bladed dash, animal aspect, dust of twilight, see invisibility, mirror image
3 (1/day, save DC 15): Heroism, burrow, find fault, versatile weapon

Race abilities:
Elven immunities
Surface infiltrator (low-light vision, no racial darkvision or light blindness)
SR 6+level
Weapon familiarity
Poison use
SLA's: Cast dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire each 1/day, save DC 13.

Gear: Shrivelblade, +2 dex belt, +1 mithral buckler, +1 ring of protection, feather token (floating feather) *2, potion of cure moderate wounds, antitoxin, drow poison *4, backup swordbreaker dagger *2.

Stats include rage and mage armor but not other possible buffs.

Syrmourn skirmishes and debuffs rather than going for the kill. With his save DCs he will not ever try to target enemies directly with spells with saves. Dust of twilight & darkness are for turning out the lights in an area, not for fatiguing the enemy or centring on an enemy.

background:
Syrmourns' blood is considered tainted by something from the surface. As such he is used rather than a user in higher drow society. Being outside where he is hated rather than despised is far better in his opinion.

While he probably wants the party heroes dead the next on his target list would be the cleric. Being looked down on by someone he deals with every day offends him greatly.

With his recently learned Find Fault spell he's better informed than others in his party think.


The hangman archetype makes a really creepy guy with a talent for beating conspiracies.

A zealot (perhaps of some deity which people really don't like) with stern gaze would be probably better at finding a mutinous conspiracy. Less creepy for good or ill.

What sort of level are you thinking of?


Let's imagine these two when your summoner reaches 6th level. They'll both be size small (half-elf children maybe) with +5 BAB, +4 base Fort and Will & +1 base Reflex, darkvision 60', evasion, +1 to one ability score and devotion. They'll split between them 5d10 HD, 20 skill points, 3 feats, +4 armor or natural armor, +2 in str/dex bonus and 9 evolution points (more if you spend feats on extra evolution). Their stats before applying these bonuses would be Str 12, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11. Maybe Str 14 after.

They'll lack feats (they won't really have enough to do teamwork feats), won't do a great deal of damage and will bite the dust easily.

Scanning the rules I don't think they could be effective given your concept until ~9th level. They could be medium size and have 2 feats each then.


If it isn't clear whether enhancement bonuses won't work it might be worth looking at polymorphs. A spirit guide oracle with the mammoth spirit gets beast shape III at 10th level, or an elementalist oracle gets elemental body I & III. An air elemental shape, maxed dex and one of the grace feats (or dervish dance) might be fun on a kobold.

David knott 242 wrote:

Ah, yes -- the Archives of Nethys doesn't have the Monster Codex up yet, so I missed that one. Iron Skin appears to provide the best protection but with only the minutes per level duration. I suppose you could take the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Shapechanger baseline to turn that around at 11th level, though.

Actually they do - Ironskin on AoN.


OK. A vicious weapon (or a vicious amulet of mighty fists for an unarmed combatant) sounds like it might suit you. Or a kineticist as Bob3 mentioned.

It's possible that abilities which allow you to fight at below zero HP would fit. The Broken, Not Beaten trait, or the Deathless ____ feat chain, or the Fight On or Ferocious Resolve feats.

Barbarians with the Reckless Abandon rage power or halflings with the Risky Striker feat (or both for halfling barbarians) take a penalty to AC for more offense.

Alternately meditation feats might fit better.

The Hellknight Obsession feat is weird but might fit.


Can you say anything more about your examples? I'm not familiar with dragonball z (aside from knowing I hated the part of one episode I saw) or Naruto.


Apparently there's a resizing property for weapons in the Giant Hunter's Handbook.


Burst of adrenaline gives you +8 to a physical attribute for one roll, then you're fatigued for a round afterwards.

Barbarian rage & bloodrager bloodrage leave you fatigued (& importantly, not raging) for longer following a furious finish.

There's less of a downside but a blood reservoir of physical prowess gives you a burst of power until the end of the user's next turn.


For moonlight stalker, I think when you have total concealment from an opponent, you also have ordinary concealment. A precedent is when you have 6 ranks in a skill, you also have the 5 ranks you might need to qualify for some feat or prestige class.

MSF is less than useful when you have the perfect setup, as you note - but you won't always have that perfect setup.

For MSM I'm really not sure of whether it works properly with total concealment or not. Your GM's mileage may vary, ask them.


You presumably want there to be some synergy between them. For most versions of 1 melee + 1 ranged that's kind of hard to manage. The exception is with teamwork feats' weird cousins, betrayal feats. Friendly fire would fit. Would those twins be reckless enough to work together in that crazy way?


1st level bard spells: Share language may be useful for the face in the party, as would adoration, aspect of the nightingale and/or tap inner beauty (+2 morale, competence or insight bonuses respectively). Heightened awareness would be useful for those knowledge & perception checks. Having some sort of invisibility (e.g. vanish) is often useful. Silent image may (depending on the GM) be able to avoid prompting a saving throw in some situations which could make it useful. Saving finale gives a saving throw reroll to your friends.

1st level oracle spells: Aspect of the nightingale & tap inner beauty are cleric/oracle spells too. Protection from evil is actually more useful at high levels - there's more enemies with spells/SLAs which it may affect. Liberating command is handy if your GM likes monsters with grab, remove fear if they like monsters with fear abilities. Rite of bodily purity & rite of centered mind are useful so long as you have 100 gp of incense to burn that day. Most of the others would be at least as useful from 25 gp scrolls for you IMO.

I'd pick vanish, share language, saving finale and heightened awareness from the bard list, and maybe tap inner beauty, protection from evil & one of the rites from the oracle list, if I wasn't trying to build to a narrow-ish theme (e.g. healer, sage or face).


Moonlight Stalker & successive feats might appeal. You'd need the dimdweller or draconic heritage alternate racial traits (or to not be human) - dimdweller might be one you want anyway.

A voidlight lantern does what you want as a magic item I think.


The easiest way to keep your equipment from melding is to not be wearing it when you shift form. Pick it up again once you're changed. If you need a weapon to change to huge size with you, say, I'd look at shrink item as the spell to base a magic item for that on.

I can't think of an answer to Q1. There are ways for spells (energy attunement, a reservoir tattoo) but not for SLAs.


Kai_G wrote:
Since you mentioned them, what 2nd level Bard spells are good for buffing?

I think you're overestimating how good the obscuring mist ash cloud will be. It's one layer of defence at best.

Anyway. 2nd level bard buffs. Heroism is the best one. Gallant inspiration can be very handy, though you won't have the spell slots to use it often. Tactical acumen is of iffy usefulness but it does affect the whole party. Rage may fit the style of some in your party.

Among non-buffs mirror image may save your life often given that you have little otherwise between you and a sharp sword. Urban step is the lowest level teleportation anywhere. You might consider silence as a debuff - cast it on an area or an ally rather than the enemy directly.


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The dip loses you 5th level spells (e.g. overland flight from Heavens), and means you can't use the FCB to get a 4th level cleric spell (e.g. blessing of fervor).

Cha to Reflex (you won't get double Cha to AC) doesn't seem like enough to pay for that, and extra first level spells are forgettable IMO.


Like Korlos says. You can talk to people, you're knowledgable, you can disable non-magic traps - and the ash cloud thing is essentially a 1st level spell (obscuring mist) since you're ineffective enough in combat that it really doesn't matter that you can see thru it. Wit the wrecker curse you can't even use many magic items effectively.

Your offence is nonexistent, you have minimal buffs (2nd level bard spells but no inspire courage - a negotiator trades that away) and you're dead if anything gets close enough to find you thru the ash clouds, or if the enemy can see thru them too.


Alchemists can use the spell knowledge discovery to add a single sorc/wiz spell to their effective spell list for activating spell completion/trigger items.

There's a few rogue talents which operate similarly. Besides rogues there's other classes which can get rogue talents, e.g. archaeologist bard.

Feats like sahir-afiyun, fey spell lore, expanded spell kenning, fey spell versatility, unsanctioned knowledge etc. can add spells to your spell list.

The paragon surge spell can give you a feat temporarily, including extra discovery, extra rogue talent & the feats named above.


At least one developer has said that they're OK with ordinary familiars getting a boost (from the familiar archetypes) which improved familiars don't. I'm not sure whether it was intended, but they're not planning to change it.


The problem with this argument, PP, is 'So a Wizard can't prepare a dazing burning hands inside of a Shadow Evocation ahead of time.' It doesn't follow that a wizard has to prepare a dazing burning hands, just that they have to be able to - because you determine the emulated spell at the time of casting.


Fafnoir wrote:
It took me a bit to understand, but I think I get it. In your first example, can you apply any metamagic you know to the emulated spell as long as it doesn't exceed the max spell level of the Shadow spell?

Yes. It probably wouldn't usually be useful - the sheet lightning spell exists and would be better than dazing burning hands - but I was trying to show that the save to avoid daze was tied to the spell that dazing spell was applied to.

Re the objections to this, it's the same reasoning that lets you cast an empowered shocking grasp into a spell storing weapon. An empowered shocking grasp is effectively a 3rd level spell. Dazing burning hands is effectively a 4th level spell, and if you have dazing spell it is effectively on the sorc/wiz list.


Once you go into a PrC you stop getting bloodline spells. Assuming you take 6 levels of sorcerer that means you get entangle and barkskin, not any of the higher level spells. Is this worth the -2 Will save & loss of other spells known that crossblooded takes to you?

One other thought - the mongrel mage archetype lets you choose your bloodline each day, effectively. It still costs a swift action but probably only one per combat rather than one per round. Because it's weirdly written you'd probably want to take 7 sorcerer levels rather than the minimum 6.


It looks like you're aiming to be the second-best at everything in the party (2nd best melee, 2nd best archer, 2nd best arcane-ish caster, probably 2nd best at skills) . Is that right?

Anyway, there's any number of ways to spend a couple of feats for this character. Artful Dodge & TWF, Artful Dodge & Redirect Attack, Spell Focus & Spell Specialization, Combat Reflexes & Weapon Focus. If you're planning to swap between bow and sword a lot then maybe Point Blank Shot and Quick Draw. Or you could start on a combat maneuver. What do you want to do?


Still, you're resurrected and 'held in her living state only by the Eldest’s will'. Ragadahn will extract whatever extra service he wanted without difficulty. Also you can't get that plane shift ability before character level 10, from levels 1-9 you're no more undying than most.

That aside, the feysworn PrC doesn't advance all class abilities the way the evangelist PrC does; this makes it a poor choice for anyone with many class abilities besides spellcasting. Skalds (and anyone else other than some full spellcasters) lose out badly when they take the feysworn PrC.

I don't know what boons Ragadahn grants, but you're looking at them to save this character from mediocrity.


Suppose you're casting shadow evocation, emulating a dazing burning hands. In this case the targets make the initial will save. If successful then they make a reflex save vs. the burning hands, taking 20% damage and a round of dazed if they fail, 10% and no dazed if successful. If the initial will save failed then a failed reflex save means full damage and 1 round dazed, successful means half damage and no dazed. If the target resists all the damage (energy resistance, whatever) then they aren't dazed regardless of the save results.

Next let's imagine you're casting dazing shadow evocation, emulating fireball. The targets make the initial will save, then a reflex save. In this case the initial will save determines whether the target is dazed and the reflex save just modifies the damage. Again, resisting all the damage means no daze.

Shadow weapon causes some disputes. If you hit someone with a weapon created by a spell, are you damaging them with the spell or with an attack enabled by the spell? If the former then dazing spell works, if the latter then not. I don't believe that's settled. If it does work, then the way it operates with other spells which damage over time (e.g. acid arrow) suggests that there's a save on each damaging hit.


rorek55 wrote:

is this still open?

Until the 22nd, yes.


There's also using still spell by feat or by rod, hunting down those V component only spells, and trying to arrange for buffs to last long enough that you cast them before putting on armor. Swift Girding can help with that last.


The alternative to balanced summoning is just summoning 1d3 creatures of the same type. You don't need an arcane discovery for that.

If you use blasting spells at all then creative destruction is a useful arcane discovery. If you like battlefield control then fleeting spell may be a useful metamagic feat. If you're having trouble getting higher level spells due to the lack of downtime then persistent spell or empower spell can make lower level spells useful in higher level slots.


It used to be possible for Guards and Wards to be made permanent. I wonder why that was removed?

Lost Passage, if they've managed to get hold of a samsaran racial spell, would be perfect. Glyph of Warding is a spell they could probably buy castings of. Magic Mouth is an alarm of a sort.

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