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I have recently found the Irrepressible trait to be potentially invaluable. It only works on charms and compulsion but that will cover a large number of the Will saves you are ever likely to make and it is often worth far more to you than any save boosting feat. My Oracle goes from a Will save of +7 against a Charm, Suggestion or Dominate to +15 because of it.
On the plus side it will also stack with a Bestow Grace of the Champion later on.
At low levels the all caster party simply chain Liberating Commands each other out or helps out with grease. At mid levels they are more likely to by flying or invisible or have freedom of movement available. At high levels they are all wearing rings of freedom of movement so grapple becomes irrelevant.
Remy Balster wrote:
Uh... what Wizard class features benefit from Cha?? Like... all that is coming to mind is opposed Cha checks with charm spells.
That is pretty much true, 7 Charisma on a Wizard is hardly unusual. However, the Student of Philosophy trait pretty much guarantees the Int primary Wizard will be a far better face character than the rogue who probably isn't buying much more than a 14 Charisma and cant really afford to use level up points on it. They also struggle to take a charisma headband early on as it doesn't give them much and wisdom increases are a higher priority given the poor will save while the Wizard will be putting everything into Int.
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Full round action so standard and move. It does not become a 1 round cast time. Sorcerers make much better use of metamagic.
It will still double the save DC and caster level bonuses from stuff like spell focus and spell penetration. If you take Magical Lineage it will let you apply a single level metamagic such as Reach or Piercing. I wouldn't do it in a game starting from first but if playing a high level one shot or something it can be useful.
As for stat increases being common in 1E/2E, I was apparently playing in very different games. I can probably count on one hand the number of times someone was able to raise a stat (outside wearing something like a girdle of giant strength) in all my years of playing.
Pretty much this. I think I found a pair of gauntlets of ogre power once but other than that nothing in Basic, 1e or 2e. You got what you rolled and you were happy with it.
The main issue with casters using mounts is that if you are moving about then you might well need to make concentration checks. They are not a big deal as the DC's aren't that high and obviously they don't apply to your SU abilities so if you can do it definitely go for it. After a certain point everyone really should be flying anyway.
Gregory Connolly wrote:
Persistent will give you significantly better results than Heighten. Take a few examples at different save points:
Target saves against your spell on a 6:
Heighten it by two levels and your chance to affect them goes from 25% to 35%. Forcing them to roll twice changes the chances from 25% to about 44%
Target saves against your spell on an 11:
Heighten it by two levels and your chance to affect them goes from 50% to 60%. Forcing them to roll twice changes the chance from 50% to 75%.
Target saves against your spell on a 16:
Heighten it by two levels and your chance to affect them goes from 75% to 85%. Forcing them to roll twice changes the chance from 75% to about 94%.
Basically Persistent is pretty much always the better choice.
Ah, I see. The paragon surge thing was mainly to get free quicken on Paragon surge so I could cast it and then immedatly cast my new known spell. I can see how that would not be worth it in some cases, though. I'm looking to be more controller-y then blasty, so I don't think I'd want to use spell perfection on a blast. However, Plane Shift sounds like an extremely evil choice that I could get behind. Spell-focus wise, enchantment is probally my best bet since, again, I am no dedicated blaster.
Dazing Flame Strike is some of the best control around...:)
Nothing, and I mean nothing, is immune to Daze. You can Daze swarms, undead, golems (if you can find a NO: SR spell), mindless things, anything at all.
I know about dual cursed, but it doesn't work here because it makes me lose the knowledge skills gained as class skills from Lore. If it didn't to that, I would almost certainly go that route, but as it stands, since I'm not a bard and can't take breath of experience without being old age or a non-half elf, so having the knowledge skills as class skills is of fundamental importance to this character. If there is another way to gain all knowledge skills as class skills, however, I would be interested in knowing.
It doesn't have to be a class skill to adds points to it. All you are losing is 3 points. However if you then take the revelation which makes them Charisma based and pick up a Circlet of Persuasion suddenly you have regained that 3 point modifier. You wont have the skill points to take lots of ranks in them anyway so don't rely on being able to monster ID. Lore is all about randomly making any out of combat knowledge check with its multiple use +20 bonus.
I would dump Extend Spell and buy a low level rod for 3k. You don't have that many higher level spells you desperately need to extend. I would also drop Heighten Spell and move Persistent to a much earlier point. Heighten is OK but Persistent will give you a bigger effect than the equivalent level adjustment for heighten. At low levels Persistent Murderous Command, Burst of Radiance or Sound Burst are all very strong. At higher levels Greater Forbid Action, Plane Shift and Holy Word will serve you well.
I would then pick up Dazing Spell as your 3rd metamagic feat to qualify for Spell Perfection. With whatever you have left over grab Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in whatever school you are most likely to use lots of. Evocation is actually quite decent for Oracles as it includes Sound Burst, Burst of Radiance, Holy Smite, Flame Strike and Holy Word. Flame Strike is particularly good for use with Dazing as it gets round the elemental resistance or immunity issue. Enchantment is also decent as it covers all sorts of stuff Clerics get.
I definitely would not take Paragon Surge as my spell perfection spell. All that is doing is saving you spell slots to freely quicken it. You are getting no benefit from doubling SR or save DC feat benefits. I would definitely be looking at Flame Strike (with Dazing), Plane Shift (with Persistent and/or Reach), Holy Smite (with Dazing or Persistent) and Holy Word (with Persistent) as much stronger options.
Bouncing Spell isnt terribly good. You are betting on whatever you target making their save and then having another available target.
I would pretty much stick with Persistent at 5th and later on Quicken, probably at 9th. You might want to grab Reach at some point as some of your spells have a rather short range. You will need Spell Penetration later on. For now though at level 3 your best options are almost certainly Craft Wondrous Item or Improved Initiative.
Multiclassing a primary caster is generally a bad idea unless you really know what you are doing.
One thing to note if you go Lore Oracle. Between Sidestep Secret, Noble Scion of War and Irrepressable you can dump both Wisdom and Dexterity leaving many more points available for other stats.
I would definately go the Lore Oracle route. Put a single point into each knowledge skill and take the revaltion that allows you to gain +20 on a knoeldge check with a few rounds of consideration. You wont be great at identifying minsters but the informatuion provision will be very strong.
You will be naturally good at face skills by virtue of the high Charisma.
Acid Arrow is a great low level Conjuration blast option. Given it continues to damage over multiple rounds it also offers the option to force multiple saves. Similarly Ice Spears is great for targetting multiple opponents or to hit one large opponent with all of them and compel multiple saves.
And in the Paladin thread when I said "My Sorc tactics are "boost the fighter and help him get to the BBEG" as he is a unstoppable killing machine when I do so. " I was flat out told I was playing my sorc wrong.
No, I said you were not playing the character to its full potential which is true. You seem to base your views on the relative merits of classes purely on your own experience of playing them rather than actually trying to look at different classes with even a little bit of objectivity.
The one problem I have with a build like this is the required foci: Tuning forks, which are only mentioned in the spell description. Unfortunately, one cannot use Eschew Material Components. Maybe take Improvisational Equipment to have the excuse of using other objects (bells, wine glasses, the clang of steel on metal) as alternate foci (instead of reactionary)
They are foci with no listed cost and so the spell component pouch solves that issue.
Level 10 Battle Oracle with Paragon Surge and the Seeker archetype. You can mix it up in melee as you get a mass of bonus feats, you can access any spell with Paragon Surge and Seeker gives you trap finding so you obsolete the Rogue as well.
You could always pick up Additional Traits. I have run through the module and dont recall Electrical damage being an issue. Cold yes, that might be a problem but not Electricity. If you dont have an Elemental Spell feat then I would pick up a metamagic rod just in case. Also as a gestalt character with a massive number of spells you will have alternate options.
If you are determined to go down the mystic theurge route then I would strongly consider making the sorcerer side Empyreal. That way to use the same casting stat for both sets of spells.
You might want to look at early access by being an Aasimar and qualifying with SLA's. The various alternate bloodlines give level 2 SLA's which are mostly arcane and various Domains will give divine versions (Fate Inquisition, Trickery). That allows Cleric 2/Sorcerer 1 as your entry point.
I would also really suggest that you do not focus on Channel. It's a weak ability as it is, doesnt scale well and Mystuic Thuerge levels will not stack with your Cleric levels for Channel.
Bear in mind that level 6 spell slot could instead be a freely empowered Chain Lightning or a freely Dazing Chain Lightning or a freely Quickened Chain Lightning because of the benefit of Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection.
Having to guess in advance whether to memorise Persistent or Glitterdust or Create Pit is a serious disadvantage. Being able to do so on the fly is an enornmous advantage. Sponataneous casters make far better use of metamagic. Rods switch things up a bit but have limited uses, are expensive and have been hit with a mild nerf recently around how they work.
Intensified wont do anything for chain lightning at this point. I would replace it with Dazing. Similarly Selective wont do much for Chain Lightning but might be useful for others such as Holy Word.
You definately want Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus as their benefit is doubled by Spell Perfection.
Wizard, Witch, or Theologian Cleric is a better choice for this than Sorcerer. Sorcerer metamagic cast time increases just aren't worth it, and the Arcane Bloodline power is only useable a couple of times per day.
This is nonsense. While you do have to deal with the increased cast time Sorcerers make far better use of metamagic by being able to apply it on the fly to whichever spell works best in that particular situation. If you will reach high level then it is even more nonsence as you gain your capstone at 16 with the Robe of Arcane Heritage.
If you are finding it an issue then Spontaneous Metafocus will allow you to metamagic your preferred spell with no cast time issues although it really shouldnt be necessary. From mid levels onwards you will be flying most of the time anyway so wont need to move much.
On choice of preferred Dazing spell that will depend on which level you are liekly to reach. If the game wont go much past 8th then Scorching Ray or Fireball are a good choice. If you will reach 12th then Fireball or Ball Lightning. If you will go to 15th/16th and therefore gain access to Spell Perfection then Chain Lightning is your best bet as it has a higher base DC and allows you to more easily target enemies.
On bloodline you have a couple of options. For the absolute maximum damage build then crossblooded Orc/Draconic will give you the best damage values. BUT it has a huge downside. You know fewer spells and you gain access to new spells another level later. You still get the slots at the same time as you otherwise would but as you know 1 fewer spell at each level you can only use them to fuel metamagicked spells.
Personally I much prefer Arcane. I would use base Arcane for the familiar (and a +4 initiative boost) unless playing in PFS when I would be very tempted by Sage for the masseive increase in skill points. In a home game you can be confident that someone has certain skills covered, in a PFS con game you have much less certainty of that.
If you want to deal lots of damage then you want to focus on increasing caster level and damage caps. If you want to go down the Dazing route then you want to focus on increasing the spell DC. You will struggle to be able to do both.
If I wanted to focus on Dazing using evocations I would look at something like:
1: Spell Focus
If I wanted to focus on the damage side then I would look at:
1: Spell Focus
The second build really needs Elemental Spell (cold or acid) as it is heavily relying on maximising damage from its preferred spell perfection spell and coming up against an immune enemy will suck. The first is less concerned but will need to know a slighter wider variety of elemental spells. I would also recommend taking a couple of SR:No conjyurations with it such as Acid Arrow, Ice Spears or Hungry Pit.
Sage works well with blasting if you focus on the Dazing side of things as you dont have to worry about wasting feats on boosting spell damage. In particular School Power is a significant DC increase. A feat spread something like:
1: Spell Focus
Works pretty well for control and daze blasting. If instead you focus on Conjurations and can ignore SR then you can swap out both Spell Penetration feats for an Elemental Spell metamagic (most Conjurations deal acid damage) and something else.
To be fair the feat choices for an Enchantment focused sorcerer could easily be exactly the same just with a different spell focus and probably something like Reach, Piercing or Silent Spell instead of Dazing.
If playing outside of PFS then look at including a crafting feat.
That dpends on what the rest of your feats are and how much you have increased your caster level. It also depends on how much you will rely on SR affected Evocations versus SR: No Conjurations.
Mega Matt wrote:
If you are sticking with Human then you wont be able to use Paragon Surge without the feat Racial Heritage: Half Elf.
Rather than investing points in Charisma I would be very tempted to just take the trait Student of Philosophy. That allows you to use your Int modifier rather than Charisma for influencing people using Diplomacy or deceiving them using Bluff. Knowledge: Local will often stand in for the Gather Information option on Diplomacy and you will never be feinting in combat so it covers all of the best uses of the skills.
That would then also allow you to grab a base 18 Int which is pretty critical for increasing save DC's. I would also drop Strength to 7, the difference between 8 and 7 is negligible in game terms, becomes less relevant over time and nets you an extra 2 points to generate stats.
On other traits I would highly recommend Magical Lineage. It reduces the metamagic cost on a single spell by 1 level. It wont do anything for you early on but allows access to a powerful metatmicked spell 2 levels earlier than otherwise would be the case.
Yes both of those are right. I would take both to be honest. Paragon Surge is great for out of combat situations as you spontaneously gain access to the best spell that deals with whatever situation you find yourself in. It is not great for in combat as it takes an action so you want a wide range of spells known in order to have an immediate answer when something is trying to eat your face.
I would still have access to the Remove spels. Heal may cover the same situations but you have a limited number of level 6+ spell slots and they are probably better for offence.
Endure Elements will absolutely be an important spell for the module but it lasts 24 hours regardless of the caster level and so a wand will cover you for 50 days at a cost of 750gp. Alternatively buy a lot of scrolls at 25gp each.
Cone of Cold is just not very good. It scales to 15d6 and even adding an extra +15 static damage isnt very much. Average level 16 monster HP are 240. Average boosted Cone of Cold damage is 68 if they fail their save. If you want to blast then you need far more focus on increasing the damage values and DC's.
If you have determined to go with bl;asting then consider one of the damage increasing bloodlines. Draconic or Orc will all add some damage to your spells. Crossblooded Orc/Draconic will add a lot but at the cost of spells known. Invest heavily in Intensify Spell, Empower Spell and pick a spell for Spell Perfection. If you want to add control then grab Dazing Spel. You will also need to increase save DC's so Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus are important as well as get past SR. I recommend grabbing an Otherworldly Kimono for +4 to caster level versus SR.
More the first one, I guess. The player in question is a major league cheeser but gets mad when his PCs die. His NE bad touch Cleric was killed by an extraplanar creature. Turns out that summoning a Bebilith and not speaking Aklo isn't a good idea. What's that you say, summoning a Chaotic Evil outsider and commanding it around arbitrarily doesn't just work?
If he summoned it with Summon Monster then it doesnt matter if he doesn't speak its language, it still attacks his enemies to the best of its ability. If he used Planar Ally then having it attack him seems bad form. Planar Binding would be a totally different matter.
Table overturned was physical, at a game store. He was a friend of the owner of the store we use, so I chose to diplomatically not say anything. In this case, I'm just not dealing with the guy's immaturity. I mean there's plenty of min-maxy characters that can be played without Summoners
However this sort of behaviour would guarantee that the player would no longer be welcome at my table.
Basically it boils down to an initiaitve boost, a crafting feat and a bunch of metamagic feats. Quicken, Dazing and Persistent are the go to ones. Persistent your battlefield control spells. Add Dazing to some blasts and away you go. Make sure to pick up a Staff of the Master Necromancer so you can add a metamagic on the fly.
Acid Fog is OK as a target for Dazing but not great as any decent amount of resistance will entirely negate the effect. Wall of Fire is better as it is less likely to have its damage blocked. An acid substituted Wall of Fire is better still as acid resistance is less common. Ball Lightning with Daze works even better especially against single targets as it forces many saves.
Needs more emergency force sphere. You also want to be a half elf or human for the bonus spells known FCB. Otherwise the following spells should really just be wands or scrolls:
I would not take the following Sorcerer Spells:
Swifft Girding - you wont be wearing armour and you will be resting inside a magic mansion so you dont need to worry about ambushes
Blur - Mirror Image is simply better
Pyrotechnics - doesnt do very much
Fabricate - useful but easily on a scroll, you arent likely to be casting this often
Cone of Cold - a rather poor blasting spell
Mass Fly - you are level 16, each group member should have their own means of flight by now
Finger of Death - this is just a bad save or do moderate damage
Horrid Wilting - unless you are heavily specialised direct damage is generally poor
I would not take the following Oracle Spells:
Embrace Destiny - its duration means you are casting this is combat which is a bit of a waste. You could quicken it but there are better things you could be doing with a quickened spell at this level
Weapons against Evil - you are level 16, people dependant on weapons should have +5 equivalents by now, that means they will be ignoring DR already
Spiritual Weapon - doesnt work with Charisma unless your GM amends it. Not a particularly strong spell at this level in any event
Create Food and Water - unnecessary when you already have Heroes Feast
Terrible Remorse - this spell has been subject to significant errata and is now not very good
Tongues - you can have this as a permanent spell by now
Major Curse - this is just Bestow Curse with a range. You could instead take Reach Spell and do it with a level lower slot.
Bestow Grace of the Champion - this is an amazing spell but note it only works on Lawful Good targets.
Fire Storm - more rather poor direct damage. Stormbolts is OK at this level as it also stuns, Firestorm just fills a big area.
Things which I think you are missing:
Some decent battlefield control. You have black tentacles but at this level it isn't very good as enemy CMD outstrips the CMB of the spell. I would add in a few spells like Hungry Pit, Stinking Cloud, Wall of Force.
Some strong single target removal. Icy Prison is decent but personally I prefer Baleful Polymorph. Some form of will based charm or control would also help significantly. Suggestion, Dominate Person (works on lots of things nowadays that it didnt used to), Charm Monster.
More defensive options. Emergency Force Sphere should pretty much be mandatory for any caster at this level but you also want some of the more basic stuff. Communal Resist Energy, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Veil, Spell Turning, Mind Blank. You dont need all of them but some would be really helpful. You absolutely do need some form of easy access energy resistance.
More curative options. There are lots of lower level Cleric condition removal spells which can be vital. Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, Remove Blindness, Remove Fear, Remove Sickness. Many of them work fine as scrolls but you may want some of them.
You are also lacking any real transportation options. You get Overland Flight from the bloodline which is great but you want Dimension Door and some form of Teleport. I would also highly recommend Plane Shift on the Cleric side as one of the most effective will based removal spells in addition to the travel option.
Finally it wouldnt be a Sorcerer/Oracle thread if I didnt mention Paragon Surge and its ability to obtain any spell of any level you can cast by gaining the Expanded Arcana feat. It allows you to avoid all those situational spells like Resurrection and Break Enchantment.
At the end of the day it is quite possible for a solo high level caster to solo the entire module, I can only imagine the havoc a gestalt character would do to it.
Witchwar has the level 20 Witch end boss in a plain empty and small circular room. She has spent 7 of her available 12 feats on allowing her to dual wield kukris. As a Witch. She gets 3 attacks dealing 1d4+4 damage and two attacks doing 1d4+2 with them.
It was a very WTF moment.
If the best you are managing to do with a level 13 sorcerer with a mythic tier is deliver a single target DPS machine into position then you are very much not playing the character to its potential. At this point you are deeply into the "end an entire encounter with a standard action" territory. You can choose to limit yourself in this way but pretending that the system as it stands and free of house rules doesn't result in caster dominance it just burying your head in the sand.
I don't have the anniversary edition but the original needs significant adjusting if it is likely to stand any sort of chance against a group benefitting from 5 years of new material.
That sounds more like an issue with inexperienced casters than anything else. As a caster you have to have an answer to being grappled. Conjuration Wizards get it with shift, everyone else has to look elsewhere. I generally expect an all caster party to be getting each other out of grapples with chained Liberating Command until all day Flying and then the Ring of Freedom of Movement comes up.
I am well aware of who you are and your appeal to authority has little interest to me. I am emphatically not saying that I have more experience than anyone else. I am saying that 3.x has now been around for 14 years. As such the gaps, idiosyncrasies' and issues in the system are widely known as every part of it has been poured over by tens of thousands of people and tested to destruction. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge them simply demonstrates your own unfamiliarity with the current version of the game.
Exactly this. In fact understanding how Original, Basic, 1e and 2e did things differently goes a long way to explaining why the fighter finds himself in such a terrible state in the modern game. Let us count the ways the game changed for his compared to casters in the transition from 2e to 3,x:
1. Spell casters get more spells and it is easier for them to recover them. No longer can it take the better part of a week for a high level wizard to recover their entire complement of spells like with 1e. Wizards now get more spells per level and bonus spells for a high casting stat.
2. Access to spells for wizards is easier with bonus spells at each level up.
3. The introduction of the concentration skill (now concentration check), 5' step, cyclical initiative and defensive casting means you are far more likely to actually be able to cast a spell. 1e/2e it was always a crap shoot and you were generally better off using a wand, assuming you could make any sense of the nonsensical 1e surprise or initiative rules.
4. On the whole wands issue access to magic items has become much simpler. Wands and scrolls are plentiful, Wizards start out being able to make scrolls, the game assumes a certain amount of wealth by level and item crafting is far far easier. No more sacrificing a permanent point of Con to make a simple +1 sword. As such Wizards in particular are far less limited by their number of spells known.
5. The chance of your opponent resisting your spells now goes down as you gain levels especially if you target a weaker save. This is a direct reversal from prior editions where your saves were static and improved as you got to higher level.
6. HP increased dramatically with all classes being able to benefit from higher constitution. Monster HP also increased but even more so making blasting spells terrible, reducing the chance of martial characters to actually kill their opposition and pushing casers towards save or suck/die or battlefield control to bypass the HP mechanic.
The last two are probably the biggest reason why there is such an in combat disparity nowadays. Back in the day throwing control spells was great at lower levels but rapidly became a bad idea as your opposition would routinely make their saves. Blasting also allowed a save but they still caused half damage and there were no damage caps until 2e came round. In a world where a room full of hill giants might have nothing with more than 40hp throwing a 10d6 fireball had a decent chance of killing most of them.
You will when I re-build 'em for my own use. =p
Very much this. There are very few AP boss encounters I would ever run as written. The end of Witchwar Legacy stands out as a particularly egregious example of a terrible final encounter.
Possess Object specifies that you cannot speak or cast spells so a silent rod wont help you out. As such you don't seem to be able to use any spells at all while possessing the object. Magic Jar is a much better option.
No, that would instead be 14 years of experience with the 3.x rules set and its inheritor.
Being flat out better than one of the weakest classes in the game is not really a very high bar to get over.