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FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 3,679 posts (3,686 including aliases). 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 7 Pathfinder Society characters. 2 aliases.


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I know there is a ring that makes you tiny 7/day which turns you into a songbird. I have seen one of the mouser types making se of it.

Well yes obviously but if you are going to present it as a realistic choice then you are presumably going to assign it some sort of caster level, probably based on character level. At that point it becomes completely out of whack for anyone to take and is an auto pick for every single class in the game.

I should add that I don't think this works as either RAW or RAI, you have a caster level of --, have no way to determine DC and don't get to selectively read the section to remove the section on prepared versus spontaneous.


Christopher Rowe wrote:
andreww wrote:
Yes, I keep getting emails from them and have used the same account on each visit. You can also link accounts as friends which is helpful for booking things to do together and also arranging hotels.
Hotels...grrrr. We lost at the lottery badly this year. We're at a Mariott twelve miles out from the convention center!

Ouch, that's not great. The first time I went we didn't know what we were doing and booked really late. We ended up in a very skeevy dive of a motel miles out of town. We learned quickly and got decent hotels the next two times. Hopefully going back next year, flight costs from the UK make a yearly visit a bit pricey.

The assertion that this is a ridiculous thing to do is incorrect at its core, and is one of the reasons the arguments on this thread are so baffling.

Given this ability comes online at Mythic level 1 which, for example, in WotR you get at what, Character level 4 then I think I have to disagree. If we accept BTB's interpretation out hypothetical Fighter 4/Archmage1 is stopping time, shapechanging into huge dragons and creating pet simulacra.

This single ability puts a whole new spin on martial caster disparity conversations when using strict RAW.

The only spin I see from doing such a thing is that in order to compete at all with casters a martial character has to become a caster. Nothing about a martial characters class abilities is adding anything to the debate here.

That is pretty much the entire martial/caster debate established right there. To compete with a caster you must become one.


Yes, I keep getting emails from them and have used the same account on each visit. You can also link accounts as friends which is helpful for booking things to do together and also arranging hotels.

Magda Luckbender wrote:
Absolutely! Good suggestion! Yes, Ben does exactly this. Ben will typically direct the adjacent-fighter types (who lack reach) to go after that group of foes

This would be an example of the sort of approach. Telling other people what to do is never going to go down terribly well.

Having played in one game with Ben I think some of the issues you may come across is that your approach can come across a bit...arrogant and off putting. Playing an arcanist it made no real difference to me but I know you annoyed others.


I've been to Gencon three times now and never found the people there anything but friendly. Last year I sent a fair amount of time playing PFS and had a great time. I went with friends but they were mostly off doing other stuff and I managed to find groups to join for every slot I booked into.

The muster system is a bit of a scrum so you have to be prepared to push yourself forward if you don't have a group. The big evening specials can also involve a fair amount of hawking yourself out as 100+ groups try to find enough people to play with. You can't be a wallflower or you will end up disappointed.


Rambone wrote:
I think the lesson to be learned here is if you play hard mode and get wiped don't expect much sympathy from the higher ups. You asked for a greater challenge and you got it.

I would say that the lesson to be learned is to avoid tables being run by people who are willing to twist the wording of the rules in such a way and who think it is fun to do so.

Personally I would have walked away from such a table.

Nope, you get 1 and I don't think there is a way to get more.


No, going full murderhobo isn't required. You don't even necessarily have to fight opponents to end up with full gold. Plenty of scenarios specify that you have to overcome the encounter, that doesn't have to mean fight.

I should add that if you are planning on doing anything really unusual or strange which hasn't already been discussed then you may want to flag those by PM first. I have already had my first rules query and provided a view.

If planning on doing anything weird with Simulacrum then I would recommend asking in advance to avoid disappointment.



Once every 10 years, the cosmopolitan city of Goka on the western coastline of Tian Xia hosts the Ruby Phoenix Tournament on an island off the coast. Infamous for its strange spectacles and exciting mix of fighting styles, the contest draws combatants and spectators from all over the world. The tournament’s winner gets his choice of a single item from the legendary treasury of an ancient spellcaster and earns a reputation beyond imagining. But this year, not all who have come to compete do so out of respect for the traditions of battle or even out of greed for the reward. They seek instead nothing so much as red revenge and political domination!

Can the PCs’ team of contestants survive six bouts in the Grand Pavilion arena against the mightiest combatants and cleverest battle mages on Golarion? Can they prove their mettle in tests of mind and body? Can they foil the plans of an evil organization and its powerful allies who hope to destroy the Ruby Phoenix Tournament and see its champions dead? Step into the arena to find out!

Sign up at here


When the Decemvirate sends the PCs on a mission into the desolate Mindspin Mountains to retrieve a much-needed alchemical reagent from a hermitic ex-Pathfinder known as the Phitoness of Axioms, the players soon find themselves deep in the mythical howling caves commonly referred to as the Chasm of Screams. Can the brave adventurers survive the harsh environment and defeat the demented thralls of the powerful, icy master of the oft-avoided cavern? Or will their cries of pain join the chorus of tormented voices that already echoes from the Chasm of Screams?

Warhorn is here


Your mission takes you to the Taldan capital city of Oppara where the intricate web of political intrigue and ages-old religious conflicts threaten the Pathfinder Society’s presence in the land. When Baron Jacquo Dalsine’s cousin is implicated in a recent attack on Society allies, the situation becomes even tighter for the Pathfinders, and at the end of the day some members of the Dalsine family may not get out unscathed.

Warhorn sign up is here

Happy to extend the submission date by a week, no more will be forthcoming.

They all stack. Toughness is not required for PFS, hanging out at the back is generally sufficient. Heightened Awareness will give you another +4 but affording the spell slot at low level is tricky.

Mathius wrote:

My wizard is coming along but I am not sure I can get all the details down by Sunday. I am trying but a 6 year old makes that hard.

If Andrew will grant I would love an extension.

@BigTBone How do you deal with Winds of Vengeance? I think that shuts down any ranged build but maybe mythic has got an answer.

How much longer do you need?

mplindustries wrote:

That is not my memory of it at all. I need to dig out my 2e books now, to see if I"m just internalizing houserules or what. By my recollection, Backstabbing was unlimited (not once per fight) as long as you were behind the bad guy (they did not have to be unaware just facing away, though being unaware helped). I also do not remember it being required to be done with only a dagger. I definitely remember playing a Ranger with a Skills and Powers option to get Backstab who used a Quarterstaff.

Nicos wrote:
The multiplier was not that great. with strength 17 you only had +1 to damage.

Right, but everyone else ALSO had those low modifiers, so, multiplying them was still great.

Nicos wrote:

Besides Rogue AC, saves(I think) and hit points were low.

Rogue were bad warriors.

AC and HP was bad, but saves were ok, if I recall. Yes, they were bad warriors, but not bad damage dealers. That was my point.

I think most people would be happy with a Glass Cannon Rogue, but in 3rd/Pathfinder, it's more like a Glass Beebee Gun.

My recollection is that Thieves were pretty terrible in original, 1e and 2e. Backstab was once per fight, your opponent had to be unaware and then you just got creamed as you had poor HP and poor AC. Rogues were vey much not designed to go toe to toe with anything. They had thief skills but they began at such a low chance of success, and failure was often utterly lethal (most poison traps were save or die), that your chances of survival were very poor.

Skills and Powers might have added some options to them in 2e but I strongly suspect it was not much compared to what Clerics in particular got with spheres etc. The rogue was generally not much more than a multiclass option.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Protection domain clerics.
Fair enough. So - muleback chords are great for low strength protection domain clerics... and nobody else. :P

Honestly, it isn't even that good for them. The Domain ability starts out good at +1 but only goes to +2 at 5th and +3 at 10th. That's pretty slow progression for a fairly key item.

Muleback Cords are just not very good and if you are a caster you are far better off using Ant Haul. It lasts 2 hours per level and is only level 1. You can always use a pearl of power if you really need it back.


One excellent new addition to have a few scrolls of is Monkey Fish. Its a level 1 spell from ACG which provides both a climb and swim speed allowing you to bypass two skills almost entirely with one Level 1 spell.


Jayson MF Kip wrote:

A memo to Clerics: Prepare Remove Fear. Even just one.

Being able to keep the heavily armored meleer in the front despite his/her sub-5 Will Save is worth the price of admission.

While it is a useful spell often times it is going to be tricky to use if the now feared character goes before you as they may well be out of range, especially if relying on scrolls.

Also remember that various effects are fear based, in particular the paralysis from Mummy Despair is a mind affecting fear effect.


In regard to full casters:

Lamontius wrote:
good luck surviving at low level

Clerics, Druids and Oracles are all fine at low level. Arcanists, Wizards, Witches and Sorcerers do just fine hanging out at the back.

The characters I see having most trouble are the more fragile front liners, rogues, monks, magi. The only deaths I have had on my hands so far are rogues and magi pretty much.

Dragons Breath gives you enormous flexibility as a sorcerer but is level 4.


I have run for a couple of different Mouser type characters using the Fox form of Kitsune and generally don't find them that difficult to deal with. They are good at shutting down one enemy which is far from game breaking.


- Early entry trick into Mystic Theruge. The sheer amount of spells is pretty insane. They tend to just toss level 1-2 spells around like pocket change, so every fight with a spellcaster started with a silence.

Silence has a 1 round cast time, I find lots of people forget that. Makes it tricky to use as an opener.


I've only found diplomacy a problem at +40 where you can consistently get 50 to make hostile helpful easily.

This doesn't work, you generally cannot move more than 2 shifts so Hostile to Indifferent is the best you are going to get. You also have to take a minute and hostile creatures aren't likely to give you that.


I track my encumbrance and I expect players to. However I am unlikely to check unless it is something weird like a gnome sorcerer carting around a whole mass of gear.


The Human Diversion wrote:

To me, metagaming is a player of a 1st level character without Knowledge: Religion putting away their preferred greatsword and getting out a blunt weapon to deal with skeletons.

We all do it at some level or another. Hard not to when we're playing in a metaworld with characters that don't really exist.

That's about the opposite of metagaming to me. It shouldnt take a Knowledge check to theorise that the walking pile of bones is likely to be harmed more easily by a big blunt instrument than a big slashing one. Characters can reasonably come to decisions based on what they see in the world. I would have an issue with someone pulling out, say, a silver weapon for a devil as you have no obvious basis for doing so.


Ascalaphus wrote:

I can understand that attitude, although I think you might be better off with teensy spoilers and a good choice of character.

In this case it was a 4th level barbarian with 20 Str, power attack and combat reflexes. Not really a bizarre build. But at tier 1-2 he'd auto-hit any enemy that came close and his minimum damage would kill almost every enemy instantly.

That is far more an issue of being a level 4 playing the 1-2 tier than the build itself being overpowered. I know sometimes you cannot avoid it.


FiddlersGreen wrote:
Undone wrote:
Wraithkin wrote:
Undone wrote:
Also just as a note I don't care about this specific session. It's of little/no concern to me. What I care about is the broader implications of this. If you can do this so can I, and I will, on both sides of the screen.
Good news, I wasn't actually at any point addressing you. I'm also not the GM that ran this game.

I was following this thread fairly closely earlier I just felt I should clarify that point.

I've no problem with krune ** spoiler omitted ** permakilling them. I've only got a problem because this is an absurd silly way to die that shouldn't be legal, ever.

By RAW, would a 5PP body-retrieval service be able to bring the body back to the society from that location? XD

I am not certain there would be anything left to return. You would also lose all of your gear which at this level is the more difficult issue.


Not many spells actually have a focus component and of those not all have a listed price. A spell component pouch will cover most of your needs. It is down to the player to make sure the rest is accounted for somewhere. This isn't rocket science, it is looking at the spells you want to use and seeing what is needed to use them. It is also not as if this information is obscure or difficult to find or interpret.


deusvult wrote:
Heavens Oracles are designed to abuse the Awesome Display revelation.. but as the GM it's good to keep in mind how it's not AS devastating with color spray. If the player tries to insist the 6+HD NPCs are subject to the spell thanks to the revelation, remind him to look up the definition of "affect".

6+ HD creatures are already affected by colour spray, the revelation just brings them down into lower categories potentially. I think you need to read the spell.

Mathius wrote:
How will you resolve contingencies that have the same trigger? I recommend and init check.

I think it unlikely that this will happen but if it does I will try and resolve them simultaneously. If timing is an issue then we will go by initiative.

Is the starting areas 100 by 100 along 1 wall or 100 by 1000 along 1 wall. If the smaller do we know where along the wall our foes starting zone is?

The starting area is 1000' on a side to give people space to move. In retrospect it is probably too large but I don't plan to change at this stage. You can see your opponents area but not into it.

During the 1 round that the god barrier is in force are win in initiative?

No, initiative will be rolled once the barrier goes down.

Do we know the exact moment we are to transported? To the min? to the hour? Can we find out?

I am going to say that you know the day and hour but not necessarily the time. You aren't going to be teleported into the arena while having a bath. You are unable to learn the exact moment, only the Gods of Tedium truly know and they are not telling.

Kaouse wrote:

20 point buy at level 20, huh.

Is there going to be an age restriction on the caster so they can't just be venerable and gain a free +3 to their casting stat with downsides that are easily fixed with a 50K Mantle of Immortality?

50k is a not inconsiderable cost.

Scribe Scroll is a crafting feat and it counts. Magic items have to come from a published source.


Exiel wrote:
andreww wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah...I remember that fight now. We fought them in the upper tier. But their 'friend' was so deadly we hardly noticed the gargoyles.

Yep, they are little more than a distraction at high tier and honestly they aren't much threat at the low end either. Their leader has some nasty stuff if he lands a blow but he has trouble doing that.


Echoes of the Everwar part 2 has a flock of them led by a half fiend Gargoyle spawn of a Chelaxian pit fiend general

Spirit Guide is an amazing archetype and would be an absolute must have if Dual Cursed didnt exist. I personally think it is better than Dual Cursed given the number of options it opens up.


Velsa-IronRage wrote:
andreww wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Velsa-IronRage wrote:
If you don't you ran it wrong.
Run As Written is the rule, but to say that the rules force you to run this scenario using the tactics you have outlined in every game is wrong and against the spirit of the rules. If every table were meant to be run the same, then scenarios would have round by round tactics written into them.
It also ignores the fact that not everyone believes the tactic to be legal and in the absence of an actual clear FAQ different GM's can and will rule differently.
Except you have a ruling by a PFS representative. Unless it is FAQ'd then it is legal and shouldn't be part of the argument.

No, its not. We have a view of one VO/VC who are far from infallible and are incapable of providing binding views on the rules. They can be and some often are woefully wrong on the rules.

Corvino wrote:

I can't seem to find much on these forums about the new Spirit Guide Oracle archetype. Which is a bit surprising when it seems so powerful. A Spirit Guide who starts with 13 Int and decent Cha can get a flexible ton of spells through the Lore Spirit hex Arcane Enlightenment.

If I read this right, from level 3 you can daily cherry-pick a number of wizard spells (any level) equal to your Charisma modifier to add to your list of spells known. You can change your choices daily by rechoosing your wandering spirit. The only limit seems to be that you need an Intended score of 10+spell level to cast these spells, but 13 Int and a Headband of Vast Intellect solves that.

Arcane Enlightenment balances out for Shamans, who as prepared casters aren't hugely restricted by spells known. For Oracles it's a different story, and adding half a dozen spells known to your highest castable level is massive, especially from the tasty goodness of the Wizard list.

It doesnt work. Arcane Enlightenment adds to the spells you can prepare. Oracles do not prepare spells so gain no benefit from the Hex.


TOZ wrote:
Velsa-IronRage wrote:
If you don't you ran it wrong.
Run As Written is the rule, but to say that the rules force you to run this scenario using the tactics you have outlined in every game is wrong and against the spirit of the rules. If every table were meant to be run the same, then scenarios would have round by round tactics written into them.

It also ignores the fact that not everyone believes the tactic to be legal and in the absence of an actual clear FAQ different GM's can and will rule differently.


Also this assumes the boss is only capable of melee, is always charging and is only medium or smaller. This is a fairly small number of opponents. Charging in particular is routinely problematic.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

K first the spell resistance of 36 and Carapace (Su) the caster needs to break. Next you have his saves Fort +31, Ref +22, Will +12. Good luck with that Fort save....Ahh look a low will....ahh f~@# now we get to his Immunities. Immune to mind affecting effect....thats a good portion of will saves. Ahh no ability drain or damage so no dex gimping this big boy.

I'm not seeing the OPs point in banning spell lists....this guy kind of already does ban a good portion of their spell list.

You realise that many will saves exist which are not mind affecting effects. Plane Shifting him somewhere he cant do any harm like the positive material plane is pretty trivial at high levels as SR36 isn't hard to get through. Imprisonment works as well. I did come up with a method some time ago which involved plane shifting him somewhere harmless, dropping mind blank on him then hitting him with imprisonment. The mind blank never expires as imprisonment acts as temporal stasis and he cannot be located by any mortal being as mind blank foils even wish and miracle.


Artanthos wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
It's okay for tactical use of actions to be worth doing. It really is.

Have the NPC's use the same tactics.

See how loudly the same players scream when their charge fails.

I suppose NPC's could do that but given they are normally outnumbered it is going to be a terrible idea. Using your entire go to negate the impact of 1 PC just means that the other 5 murder you and you don't get another go. PFS NPC's need to go on the offensive from the start to have any chance of having any impact at all.

ryric wrote:

Things like simulacrum were ruled in any way that a sane GM would rule them - no 5HD efreeti granting wishes, for example.

I consider myself an entirely sane GM and in the right sort of game I might well not have an issue with that. After all it is entirely possible for PC's to begin accessing free wish spells from level 11 when planar binding efreeti becomes available. It isn't as safe using planar binding but it is certainly an option.

Regardless, as the rules stand 5HD efreeti may very well retain their wish granting abilities and until something clearly comes along saying they definitely don't this particular test will run with them doing so. Given all sides are likely to be using them it isn't much of an issue.

As ever you are also more than welcome to run your own experiment.

Mathius wrote:

Thank you for all of the clarifications.

I guess I should clarify what I mean by break WBL since it relates to blood money.

I can can get a free wish with blood money(or other ways) and then use it with true creation to make material components or crafting material. If I do this after the gods obliterate stuff can I use the extra wealth towards other things?

From what it looks like right now I can use material component hacks (blood money or SLAs) to not pay for those but I can not go farther then that using true creation to make more GP.

That is pretty much my view yes.

It is also not duplicateable with Wish as it is only available as a divine spell and wish can only do level 7 and below for non wizard spells.

EpicFail wrote:
Given that Clerics have an edge defensively, I'm tilting that way.

If divine protection is allowed in your game then this is not really true. Pushing all your saves to pretty much only fail on a 1 is about as strong as you get. Add Borrow Fortune on to that and it becomes even less likely.

It very much depends on what you want to do. You can go down the full caster route and not bother with much strength and rely mostly on your spells. Starting at level 6 makes that viable but if you want to occasionally take to the front lines and engage in some self buffing and weapon smashing then you can do that too.

Your stat array will very much depend on the available point buy and home much Int and Wis you are willing to sacrifice. Wis is tricky because it links to will save but the Irrepressable trait can help with that. Int is more difficult as you will end up with few skills.

As far as feats go I would recommend Noble Scion of War, Power Attack if you want to melee, Divine Protection (assuming a home game, its not legal in PFS) and Battle Cry as strong options. If you want to set stuff on fire you can look at caster level boosts such as spell specialisation (but note Int13 requirement) to up your damage or metamagic such as Intensify or Empower. If doing that then you want a metamagic reducer like Magical Lineage.

Personally I think you are better off picking up some control spells like sound burst and burst of radiance and going to town with spell focus and penetration to make sure they land.

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