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Summon Good monster adds the Pixie as a level 4 summon. At level 9 he can be dropping 1d3+1 permanently invisible pixis each shooting sleep or charm arrows at the enemy every round. The DC is low but with that many arrows in the air every round something is going to fail.
Cast haste on them and fun times...
Jayson MF Kip wrote:
My four player party was...
Two sorcerers, one blasting and one control, a gunsligner/sorcerer/eldrictch knight and a halfling palading archer. For the first three parts we also had Charles, the planar bound Deva.
The encounter which is potentially the most dangerous out of the whole lot is the first, we finished it in about 30 minutes. Round 1 saw a golem and a worm dazed and another worm plane shifted, round two the second worm went for a holiday to the elemental plane of earth and the Raven became a turtle. The archers couldnt hit the broad side of a barn and quickly fled.
The rest of part 1 was mostly fairly easy although we struggled to justify actually using the maze when we knew where we were going. Datunga got 1 rounded by the gunsligner.
We skipped the Phoenix encounter by charming the ring holder. The last fight was mostly difficult due to an element of PvP as the Ice Devil was trying to destroy the guillotine while the gunslinger tried to protect it assuming he was up to something. Sadly Charles was very disappointed as summoning the devil broke our agreement and he left. The cleric spent most of him time inside a pit and we ran away from the incorporeal undead after they came very close to murdering our paladin.
Parts 2 and 3 had nothing remotely challenging. The air ship chase was particularly irrelevant as we had 3 people capable of casting teleport/dimension door so we just relocated to their ship immediately.
We had a PC death in part 4 to, of all things, a normal shadow. The final showdown was utterly anticlimactic as it is basically against a bunch of single classed fighters with poor saves in a big empty room. I think we stuck the Decemvirate member inside an Emergency Force Sphere until we had beaten the rest to a pulp.
While I enjoyed playing through the series a great deal Adril Hestram is a terrible opponent who cannot remotely do any of the things which are attributed to him. If multiple highly secretive decemvirate members can be located and murdered by an Int10, Wisdom 8 single classed fighter with nothing more than a few ranks in Knowledge: Dungeoneering and a +11 bluff then that suggests some pretty appaling incompetence on their part.
Seeker Sage Sorcerer works extremely well. You can ignore Seeker and add in Aram Zeys Focus if you prefer.
I am currently putting together a Wayang Orcale to act as a magical scout/controller. High stealth, plunders the wizard illusion list for shadow spells and invisibility, spirit guide for off list extra's.
+8 is a strong buff but to only a single attack it isn't helping out that much. The AC bonus might protect someone from a big hit but the attack bonus is likely wasted given it will apply to your ally's first attack which is probably hitting already.
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Sure it is. You are taking an entirely legal player option and twisting it around in a wholly adversarial way because you don't like what it does to the game. That's a pretty passive aggressive way to play the game.
If you don't like the effect they have you have better options. If playing with a regular group you can talk to each other like adults and agree some parameters of what sort of things you will use in the game. This is hard to do in PFS in anything but the smallest most tight knit local groups.
You could also make sure that the person buying the animal is properly following the rules. Does it have the attack trick twice? If not you are looking at DC25 Handle Animal to get it to attack many targets. Even if it is a creature that only requires a single attack trick are they actually making the DC10. Is the animal injured, if so +2DC etc.
As far as "have you gained experience" goes I would suggest that anyone who can actively manage to control a tiger well enough to have it take down zombies, carnivorous plants, demons or the like is totally learning something.
When we played we...
met Geppa at the end and rescued her from the guillotine. The Red Raven joined my collection of turtles which live in my ornamental pond alongside Tancred Desmire and others. I am honestly not really sure how the Raven is supposed to escape if you have even a single mildly competent caster in your group. His saves are atrocious so he falls over to pretty much anything pointed at him and suddenly Geppa isnt present in the cave encounter.
We avoided that one by charming the fighter from greater invisibility and convincing him we were there with the Ravens blessing although why any group which can teleport would bother using the Maze is another matter.
It says all other planes to me...
Transitive Planes: These three planes have one important common characteristic: each is used to get from one place to another. The Astral Plane (although technically an Outer Plane) is a conduit to all other planes
Dorothy Lindman wrote:
I would treat summoned animals in the same way I might treat any other type of animal with the exception that they automatically attack your enemies. I assume they know what their summoner knows about what is treated as an enemy or not. Anything else is going to be DC25 Handle Animal as they arrive essentially "wild" with no tricks. Being able to speak to them won't help, the ability to speak to animals doesn't get around needing to make handle animal checks for animal companion users so wouldn't help summoning types.
There's a reason most of my summoner types use elementals and have all of the elemental languages known.
In my last session my Wizard was riding around on his summoned ankylosaurus shoouting yee-hah! at people.
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Yeah, this is a prety good example of adversarial DM'ing. Trained animals are potentially an issue. You dont deal with them by being a dick about it.
Would you do the same if someone's animal companion solo'd an encounter?
I would hope that my tablemates enjoyed having me around while I was moving up the levels with my unoptimized socially-focused PC.
The social side is often as important, if not more so in some scenarios. Optimisation doesn't have to relate purely to causing damage. If you can do well in one area, whether that is combat, investigation, scouting, knowledge, talking, or whatever then you are at least contributing.
However, this is PFS so you know you are going to end up in a fight at some point and it isn't unreasonable that your teammates might expect you to be able to do something, even if its just drop a buff or reliably aid or something.
Just when did this idea of "playing suboptimal PCs is a troll behavior" start propagating, anyways?
Most recently, when some people were suggesting, in all seriousness, that bringing along an Int9 wizard was perfectly reasonable and that only power gaming munchknin rollplayers could possibly have a problem with their special snowflake roleplaying character.
Pink Dragon wrote:
Or, in a different vein, why should PFS scenarios, including high Tier scenarios, be written with mechanically...
PFS scenarios, even most 7-11 ones, don't expect PC's to be highly optimised in order to succeed. If they did the organised play campaign would probably collapse. There are a few exceptions which will challenge groups to a greater degree but largely most should be completable with pretty straight forward characters.
Nothing requires that the game end as soon as you finish off the last encounter. A PC wizard should be able to say, "and then I spend the next week scribing spells from this spellbook."
Something similar happens all the time when PC casters share spells.
If it is the one I am thinking off that is also an extremely dangerous scenario with all sorts of screw you events in it.
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Unless he scribes it during the scenario. Non wizard spellcasters can access non core spells on their list but only by buying the scroll.
Lets say you find a scroll of Life Bubble, a wizard/cleric/druid/ranger spell. A wizard could scribe the spell into his spellbook during the adventure and use it thereafter provided the group was happy with the scroll being used up for the scenario. If he subsequently met another wizard in a later adventure that wizard could scribe the scroll from his book.
After the adventure where the scroll was found if it is on the chronicle anyone with access to any of those lists could purchase the scroll and add the spell to the ones they could subsequently use. A sorcerer could add it to their spells known if they had a new 5th level spell known available or retrained, a druid could prepare it etc but the process expends the sroll.
Mark Seifter wrote:
5 ft emanations for Medium creatures are absolutely supposed to apply to only those other 3 squares, for certain (I can assure you because I know what the discussion entailed, so I know it was a wording snafu, just like the spurious "Answer:"). Spells like emergency force sphere are already strong enough.
The issue isn't with 5' emanations it is with 10' ones which don't provide you anywhere to stand where an enemy cannot easily move adjacent. It is standing right next to you on the grid despite something like anti-life shell saying it shouldn't be able to.
I am struggling to think of a 5' emanation other than EFS but even if you changed EFS to work like this it arguably makes it weaker. You could perhaps catch more people but it also becomes harder to use if something is in the way. Also your allies might well not want their entire turns disrupted by being stuck inside a force bubble.
Even if it was within a useable source the existence of a trick which does one thing does not automatically invalidate every other option which does the same or similar things. There are loads of examples of things which overlap in terms of their effect on the game.
Also, not legal doesn't mean it does not exist, it means players cannot make use of it. GM's still can and often do with all sorts of sources which are used by scenarios. Players can certainly be affected by rules in source materials they cannot use to make characters.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Thanks for this, it makes anti-magic using dragons actually scary now.
I would like to flag up one possible incongruity which limiting this to large creatures creates and wondered if you could look at it. Assuming centred emanation spells on medium or smaller creatures have to come from a grid intersection there ends up being nowhere such a creature can stand where they are directly protected due to the vagaries of the battlemat grid. A 10' radius emanation on the grid is a 2x2 box with a 1x2 box attached to each face.
There is nowhere a medium or smaller creature can stand within that area where they are not adjacent to one of the edges. It makes using things like anti-life shell or magic circle quite difficult as they arguably don't prevent an enemy getting adjacent because of how it is drawn on the mat.
That obviously doesn't make much sense, its a bit like reach issue which allowed enemies to warp next to you without provoking if they came at you from the diagonal.
Is there any chance of removing the "large" limitation from the first sentence of the new FAQ?
Covert Operator wrote:
You don't seem to understand how Heavens Oracles work. The HD limit doesn't matter much when every target is considered to have 5 to 10 HD less than it actually does. Creature types can be an issue but there are ways around that.
I would go with:
Wayang Spirit Guide Heavens Oracle. Wayang lets him pillage the Wizard list for extra illusions. Spirit Guide lets him grab other arcane spells as required. Colour Spray spam will take out whole swathes of enemies. Invest in Threnodic spells so you can take out undead as well. As far as constructs, oozes and plants go they are all subject to figment illusions. Trap them behind silent/minor image early on to give people time to deal with, later on stick up permanent image walls and forget about them.
Razmirian Priest Sorcerer. Focus on battlefield control. Glitterdust, Aqueous Orb, Pits etc to separate out enemies and allow them to be dealt with piecemeal. Later on trap things behind walls of stone, charm them or turn them into turtles. Invest in feats like Persistent Spell. Pick up Command Undead for your own personal army, mindless undead get no save. Plunder the divine spell lists with your level 9 feature for anything the Oracle doesn't have covered.
Master Summoner. Flood the battlefield with warm bodies to keep the enemy off your group and murder things. At low levels small earth elementals are particularly good. Higher up pouncing celestial lions do great damage while the celestial ankylosaurus provides amazing area control. Drop the odd buff or battlefield control spell.
Slumber Witch. You are the groups skill monkey so you probably want to cover knowledge's, disable device and pretty much anything else you want. With 3 charisma based casters you can skip Student of Philosophy as you don't need to be the face.. Put almost everything to sleep. Things that are immune can be misfortuned so they are far more likely to fall to the rest of the groups control spells.
Actually, a 1E/2E multiclassed character lags 2 or 3 levels behind behind a straight class caster, since they effectively halve their XP.
1e XP progression is not linear so they don't. Generally multiclassed characters will lag about a level behind their single classed friends which is great right up until around level 8 when hard capped level limits start to bite.
Quick example, a character with 50k xp might be a single classed level 6 Cleric or level 6 Wizard but would be a Wizard5/Cleric5 multiclass.
The Human Diversion wrote:
It really wasn't because core classes were already the better option than pretty much any early entry PrC. This is not a balance fix because Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, and Druid still exist.
Chris Mortika wrote:
Grandfathering in a single aasimar/tielfing is hardly abusing the opportunity. I had understood the concern was more people running it 10+ times to have a supply of such characters for the forseeable future.
There were certainly a lot of online games of Confirmation around that time.
If you are going all the way to level 20 you might want to consider being a Wayang. You lose access to Paragon Surge but you get to add 1 wizard illusion spell to your spells known potentially every level with their FCB.
Andrew Christian wrote:
I agree, describing this situation using hyperbole such as claiming early entry was a loophole despite being explicitly intended by the development team or being 100% sure Mike warned people it would be closed when he said no such thing doesn't help at all.
Andrew Christian wrote:
That sounds more like an issue with certain players who create characters that dominate the table. Not the options of the game itself.
Not really, it is a natural result of the decision. You might well have two characters sitting next to each. One is a grandfathered MT, Wiz2/Cleric 1/MT4. They have the whole range of level 3 cleric and wizard sells to play with. Next to them is someone stuck with traditional entry sitting at Wizard3/Cleric3/MT1 who is still stuck with level 2 and quite literally outclassed without the first player necessarily doing anything.
How exactly do you determine whether or not someone was actively working towards a PrC?
Take MT as an example. Lets say you are an aasimar for the level 2 arcane SLA and had planned to go Wizard2/Cleric1 and pick up a divine domain which gave a level 2 SLA, trickery maybe. With 4xp you are likely just Wizard 2, how are GM's looking at such a grandfathered character supposed to decide whether or not the PC was actually working towards MT? What happens when GM's take different views? I suspect you would end up with massive table variation which would make this potentially unworkable.
Andrew Christian wrote:
Sure it isn't a competition but if two players sit down at the same table and one PC can quite literally do everything the other can and then more that second PC may well be left wondering why they bothered turning up if all of their potential contributions are easily overshadowed. People should co-operate but they should also have the chance to meaningfully participate.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Personally, I've seen 3/3/10 theurges across many levels, and at high levels, people do not give nearly enough credit to the value of having lots of those lower level slots that are still invaluable buffs, but they totally do have issues at low levels.
I think people give having lots of low level spell slots exactly the right amount of credit, which is to say not very much. That is especially the case when we are looking at low level buffs which can just as easily be provided by wands or scrolls. You are giving up access to the highest level, and most game defining abilities for the chance to cast a couple of extra resist energies. Its an awful trade off and you have to live through the valley of suck that is levels 4-13 which for many AP's are the vast majority of levels. Given that the majority of buffs are ones you quite probably have to cast in combat given their durations this makes the situation even worse as you still have the same number of actions as the single class caster and may well have less as it takes longer for Quicken to come on line for you.
The original SLA ruling made me feel like I can be a cool AND competent Mystic Theurge, or Eldritch Knight, or Bloatmage, or any other prestige class improved by early entry. And now I won't get to experience that, as I hadn't made a character to take advantage of that yet and now I won't be able to.
To be fair the Bloatmage is still a perfectly decent option. You need 5 wizard levels so you grab a bonus feat and what it gives is arguably as good, if not better, than an extra bonus feat and many level 8 school abilities.
The most powerful options in the game sit in the CRB. This does nothing to address power creep.
Kolby Sample wrote:
Turning otherwise weak options into actually useful and effective character concepts is about as far from cheesy as you can get.
And the eldritch knight too.
I havent been less happy about being right in a long time.
Define strong? If you are talking in combat are you looking at damage dealing, the ability to control the battlefield, protect allies, limit opponents actions or what? Is it just combat advice you are looking for or do you want to see what sort of utility they can bring outside of fighting stuff? Can they handle diplomacy, information gathering, travel, survival, research or any of the other myriad tasks you might need characters to do when you are fighting for your life.
Andrew Christian wrote:
I'm pretty sure that you know you are going to a mining camp.
You do but you have no idea that particular camp has been attacked or that there is any great sense of urgency. Sharrowsmith disappeared months ago, the trail is very cold. Even after you finish up in the camp the module does nothing to tell you that these particular miners might be in any way important to the scenario or the society and yet the secondary mission and quite possibly the first are strongly dependant on them.
On the travel time issue the trip to the camp is a 20 mile journey using existing trails through hills. Anyone with a base speed of 20 can travel 12 miles per day, 30 base is 18 miles so you are automatically looking at 1 delay, probably 2. The trip from the camp to the valley is 15 miles through untracked hills reducing your daily travel rate to 8 or 12 miles meaning another 1-2 delay. If you end up with 4 delay that means only 1 miner is alive at the end and you have automatically failed the secondary.
That means pretty much any group with someone wearing medium armour is going to have to forced march assuming they even realise it is necessary.
Well forcibly abducting an angel with planar binding and trapping it in a little box until it agrees to perform some service for you is apparently a good act as the spell gains a descriptor based on the nature of the summon so probably...
I strongly suspect the author didn't read the overland travel rules. Given the distances between the sites and the likely daily travel rates in the terrain it's extremely difficult to avoid multiple delays without forced marching a lot. Given the module doesn't stress the need for haste it's very easy to end up with 0pp if you miss getting the praetor on side and extremely difficult to meet the secondary in any event.
Yes, I guess I am using healer interchangeably with full divine caster. However, would you run Bonekeep without a Cleric or Life Oracle?
Absolutely. Of course I would also be happy to bring a Cleric or pretty much any form of Oracle as well as both are entirely capable of doing all sorts of interesting things. I would want either to have a fair amount of condition removal but I couldn't care less if they had access to a single cure spell or channel.
I ran Bonekeep 3 at Gencon with my Lore Oracle and we just ran out of time with the final boss on about 40hp. I ran Bonekeep 2 with my Summoner and no cleric or oracle and we cleared about two thirds although that was mostly because we were playing online which inevitably took longer.
That sort of approach rather ignores the entire context of society play. You are all part of the same organisation and you are being sent into potentially hideously dangerous areas filled with horrifying monsters that may well want to eat your brains often with little to no warning or intelligence. Lying to the people you may well be depending on to keep you alive is neither very smart nor courteous.
We played Murder on the Silken Caravan yesterday with a core group of 5 players including three druids, two with animal companions. None of us died but the first and last fights were very dicey in places, especially the first. I am sure David will be pleased to hear that both animal companions went down in the last fight although fortunately neither died. My own was taken out in a single critical hit from full HP. It could have been worse, it could have been on a PC.
To be fair, every balanced party should have a healer in Core or Standard PFS play. Life Oracles work well outside of Core. That said, all of the PFS tables I have played, the healer is either a Cleric or Life Oracle. Also, Core Rangers can use CLW wands.
That is very far from being true. A control, summon or damage orientated cleric or oracle is likely to prevent more damage simply by removing enemies than they are ever likely to repair with a cure or channel in combat. Blocking the battlefield with a standard action summon, blinding multiple opponents with burst or radiance or outright shutting down an entire combat with greater forbid action reduces the expected damage a group might take by far more than any heal spell.
There is a reason why Cure Light Wands are so ubiquitous and it is because it is much more effective to remove the enemy and patch everyone up later. Sure you might need the occasional in combat heal spell but a dedicated healer is far from required.
That isn't to say that people shouldn't play them if that is a play style they enjoy, go for it, do what makes you happy, but at least make your choices on an informed basis.
If you're going to beat stuff up in melee the Nature Fang archetype (ACG) trades out wild shape (& some lesser doodads) for slayer talents, studied target and a dash of sneak attack. Since a lack of feats and attack bonus is one of the big problems for a fighting druid this is actually a decent trade.
This sounds like an awful trade. Druids don't need help with attack numbers because after level 4 you will be making multiple natural attacks at your full modifier and with a built in strength bonus. As far as feats go you could pretty much stop with power attack and be fine. Wild Shape is pretty much the defining ability for the melee orientated druid and giving it up for anything is a terrible idea.
Alex McGuire wrote:
communal resist energy.
Ooh, that one is a biggie and is liable to make life for non spellcasters significantly more painful. I have seen multiple encounters effectively neutralised with this one spell. Pretty much anything with fire elementals, mephitis, magma elementals etc.