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andreww's page

FullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 2,236 posts. 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Ezren has additional spells noted as being in his spellbook. If you could not change them they would be rather redundant. If the module runs over more than one day, especially if there is travel time at the start, there is absolutely no good reason why a prepared caster could not switch them about.

Flat footed only applies on the first round of combat, not every round.


Polymorph spells do not change your type.

Personally I suspect the area on stone call is a bit big for easy use with dazing, too much chance you will also hit your allies. Also its damage is bludgeoning and so is affected by DR. Given the low value many things simply wont be affected as they will never take damage from the spell. Personally I like Glitterdust or Aqueous Orb at mid levels.

OK, putting your spell list in a slightly easier to read format you have:

Level 0: Detect Magic, Daze, Light, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Read Magic, Mending
Level 1: Colour Spray, Grease, Mage Armour, Identify, Vanish, Silent Image, Mount, Feather Fall
Level 2: Aid, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Levitate, Stone Call, Web, Mirror Image
Level 3: Remove Disease, Stinking Cloud, Aqueous Orb, Haste, Ice Spears, SMIII
Level 4: Enervation, Acid Pit, Dimension Door, SMIV
Level 5: Wall of Stone

OK, a few things strike me right off:

1. Colour Spray should be traded out, not sure if it has been or not.
2. Mount is much better as a scroll if you really need it.
3. Level 1 could really use something like protection from Evil, scrolls work but have short duration. Liberating Command is also an excellent group benefit spell.
4. Invisibility is important and Vanish is very short duration. You don't get reduced cast times of Summon Monster so really want it. It is a decent scouting option as well.
5. Three Summon Monster spells seems overkill especially with the lack of reduced cast time. I would drop III for dispel magic
6. You should get another level 5 spell using the Rob of Arcane Heritage.
7. Acid Pit and Create Pit seem a bit redundant. I would grab something like Elemental Body I or Greater Invisibility
8. Enervation is really not very good, the debuff is small and is difficult to increase with metamagic

Fair point. I would definitely try to fit Invisibility and Dispel Magic back in and probably Elemental Body I given how versatile it is.

Swap Improved Initiative for Noble Scion of War.

Otherwise everything looks like it should work well. I might bump Quicken to 11th and take a crafting feat.

You could be half elf for Paragon Surge and still get the human extra spells FCB.

Toppling does not automatically knock prone. It requires a check which you will often fail as CMD scales faster than your bonus.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

very common feat for NPC's, and, I believe, in PFS, where you can't train up hit points.


I've seen it taken a few times too.

But then, I don't let players train up HP either...

I could see taking Toughness if you are using 15PB but with 20PB it isn't hard for anyone to start with a 14 Con which is generally more than enough.


Page 23

Beyond the gear noted above, your character is restricted
to purchasing additional items from his accumulated
Chronicle sheets, or by capitalizing on his fame. Weapons,
armor, equipment, magic items and so on that are outside
of these lists are not available for purchase at any time.

Page 24

Fame is a non-expendable number
that functions similarly to an ability score—the higher
your Fame, the greater your renown. Higher Fame scores
unlock resources that can be purchased from your faction
with Prestige Points and increase the maximum cost of
items you can purchase with gold

Page 25

A character’s Fame score determines the
maximum gp value of any items she can purchase from her
faction, as detailed in Table 5–3 below. The character must
still actually spend the gold to receive the desired item


Read the Guide to Organised Play. You can buy anything that costs equal to or less than the value dictated by your fame score provided it is legal. Chronicle items are generally irrelevant with a few small exceptions, generally partially charged wands or things which might not be in additional resources. There may have been a time when they were relevant but that time is long past and probably mythical.

Oracles with the human FCB have more than enough open spells available to pick up the various necessary situational spells. Also many of them, such as remove fear/sickness/paralysis/blindness scale barely at all with caster level making them easy picks for scrolls. As far as channelling goes Life Oracles make far better use of it than Clerics given their heavy investment in Charisma.

As a comparison point my level 10 Lore Oracle currently knows 10/10/7/6/3 spells of level 1-5 when you include free cures, mystery spells, FCB spells and bonus spells from his curse. That is a hell of a lot of versatility without even touching any sort of Paragon Surge shenanigans.

Well quick channel is very much like a metamagic effect and works by consuming extra uses. I could certainly see adding other types although I still doubt they would make the ability worthwhile after about level 3.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Granted, you're grossly misrepresenting most of the arguments there, but I should probably expect that.

Par for the course with DrDeth.

Bard and Magus are not great ideas for MT as their casting abilities are fairly limited and MT wont advance the other class abilities. Bards in particular get very few spells known/per day.

This will be very mad needing Dex, Int and Wis. You might find it could work better as Cleric/Empyreal Sorcerer. CL2/Sorc1/MT3 has 3rd level cleric spells and 2nd level arcane ones.

As far as long duration buffs go resist energy, see invisibility, keen edge and magic circle are all 10 minutes per level.

Seeker of Secrets

Nope, heartseeker affects concealment, not total concealment.

Rapanuii wrote:
andreww wrote:
Rapanuii wrote:
I never bothered to look into masterwork tool, and just associated climbers kits and stuff that were pre-existing to be associated with this. I didn't know someone could make one, but I don't think there is any legal way to use this in PFS.
Masterwork tools are legal in PFS.
I'm talking about just making one up to accommodate a skill

Yes and that is allowed in PFS, it is part of the CRB. You may need to explain what it is and as a circumstance bonus there may be situations in which it does not apply but they are absolutely legal. As an example I use a pair of glasses as my Perception masterwork tool and they apply to pretty much any visual based perception check I might make. Obviously they are no help if I am listening at a door to hear what might be behind it.

Yeah, that is 8k to negate Blur which is lot to spend on a very minor effect.

Other options are fairly limited. They include:

Hag's Shabble, 3400gp for a +2 bonus

Holy Mask of the Living God, 2100gp for a +2 bonus

Maw of the Wyrm, 18000gp for a +4 bonus

Dead Mans Headband, 3600gp, +2 bonus and a +1DC to any fear effects

Lion Cloak, 12000gp and a +2 bonus

Intimidate boosting items are pretty limited.

Rapanuii wrote:
I never bothered to look into masterwork tool, and just associated climbers kits and stuff that were pre-existing to be associated with this. I didn't know someone could make one, but I don't think there is any legal way to use this in PFS.

Masterwork tools are legal in PFS.

Sleeves of Many Garments - always be dressed for the occasion, 200gp

Hat of Disguise - if you make a mistake it wasn't you, you were never there, 1800gp

Circlet of Charisma - +3 to all charisma based checks, 4500gp

Potion of Eagles Splendour - +4 charisma so +2 to all skill checks, only lasts 3 minutes, 300gp

Cracked Mulberry Pentacle Ioun Stone - +1 to bluff and diplomacy but only 400gp

Scroll of Glibness - level 3 bard spell, 375gp, +20 to bluff checks

I would never ban illusion. Invisibility, Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility are simply too important at pretty much any level.

Looking at what you want to do I am rather unconvinced by the necromancy spell focus choices. You have two necromantic spells which allow a save, Blindness and Command Undead. Command Undead allows no save for mindless targets. Blindness is good but I don't think it is a two feat investment good. Many necromancy spells work with no save, enervation and waves of fatigue being prime examples. I would dump the feats.

In their place I would definitely pick up improved initiative, especially with a Dex of 10 and no initiative boosting trait or familiar. I might also be tempted to take Toughness. Normally I would skip this as a bad choice but 10 Con is very dangerous on a wizard. Personally I would probably live with a starting 18 or 19 int, drop charisma some and boost dex and con. Other choices might include Extend Spell or Craft Rod.

Banning conjuration is a bad idea, you will regret the lack of easy access to teleportation. Also with neither conjuration or evocation you lack many ways to deal with creatures which are traditionally immune to enchantment, undead, golems, oozes and swarms. You have access to necromancy but control undead, while excellent, is probably not enough on its own for undead. Golems will be immune to pretty much everything you have. You have no real area affect spells for swarms.

On gear you will need some of the standard stuff in addition to those listed. The Handy Haversack and Cloak of Resistance are as near to mandatory as it gets for a Str7 wizard. The Mind Fog trick is interesting but really probably not needed. At level 10, assuming a +4 Headband your enchantment DC's are 20+level. CR10 monsters have saves between 9-13 generally. Hold Monster for example will work anywhere between 55% and 75% of the time. Mind Fog has to be cast in combat and is stationary and the target has to fail the save. You would be better off just using an offensive spell on each round.

Silent Saturn wrote:

How many other Force spells are there? It seems like Toppling Spell only exists to make Magic Missile worth using after level 2 or 3. Most of the Force Hand spells are a high enough level that Toppling would put them over level 9, aren't they?

EDIT: Never mind, for some reason I thought Toppling was a +4 level adjustment. I'm still wondering if there are enough Force spells to make Toppling more than a one-trick feat until level 10 or so.

There are very few. For arcane casters you have:

The various hand spells (5-9)
Hungry Darkness (7)
Twilight Knife (3)
Force Punch (3)
Chain of Perdition (3)
Battering Blast (3)
Shock Shield (1)

For divine casters you are looking at:

Blade Barrier (6)
Spiritual Ally (4)
Chain of Perdition (3)
Spiritual Weapon (2)

It is really not a very good feat.

Jiggy wrote:

Yeah, I'll probably be doing at least another +1.

Buy the cracked Ioun Stone first, it provides +1 for 4k versus 5k to upgrade the cloak from +2 to +3.

Jiggy wrote:
More scrolls and/or wands of situational spells are never a bad idea.

Pretty much have a copy of anything in your spellbook that you are not currently memorising. Particularly level 1 and 2 spells are so cheap as scrolls there isn't really any reason not to have them. Just avoid anything which allows a save or SR or a caster level check. Generally useful ones I would suggest include:

Any of the various detect spells
Comprehend Languages
One or two of each of the protection from alignment spells. Enemies are sometimes annoying and summon good aligned outsiders
Floating Disc
Obscuring Mist
Reduce Person
Air Bubble (or potions of)
Touch of the Sea
Aram Zeys Focus
Fog Cloud
Gltterdust (allows a save but still useful to reveal)
Locate Object
Rope Trick
Levitate/Fly in case overland flight gets dispelled
Mirror Image for emergencies
Invisibility Sphere for group sneaking
Phantom Steed, long lasting and very fast for getaways
Magic Circle versus x, no save and keeps summons at bay, does allow SR
Sleet Storm/Ash Storm, for covering escapes or dropping on archer opponents
Dimension Door, generically useful
Elemental Body I, slight, swim or earth glide in one package
Resilient Sphere, use defensively on yourself if you don't have access to emergency force sphere
Overland Flight, in case of emergencies
Teleport, I would always have 1 at this level to enable running away

Jiggy wrote:
Ooooh, it just occurred to me I could also be spending cash on ascribing new spells. Any suggestions for (preferably no-save) spells that aren't in-combat buffs?

Walls, stone, force or ice for control, fire for trapping enemies or hitting undead.

Command Undead, unintelligent undead gain no save. You have barred necromancy but should be able to use scrolls

Dimensional Anchor, great for dealing with enemy casters and outsiders.

Black Tentacles, scales based on caster level but great against humanoid caster opponents

Pilfering Hand, disarm people at range using your casting stat and caster level. Not ideal for you but great for removing spell component pouches and holy symbols from low CMD casters

Rock to Mud, huge area control and movement limitation.

Interposing Hand, no save and it gives you cover against an opponent

Die for your master, immediate action emergency save if you have a familiar, from animal archive

Ice Storm, damage is poor but creates a large area of difficult terrain, Stone Call does similar at level 2

Animate Dead, having more bodies o your team can be really useful, tends to smell a bit

I am not seeing any sort of physical stat buff belt on your list. +2 to two of the three will cost you 10k and is a decent investment.

If you have Perception as a skill then eyes of the eagle are pretty excellent at 2500.

More scrolls and/or wands of situational spells are never a bad idea.

Upgrading the cloak of resistance is pretty much always a good idea.

Depending on what your other skills are a competence skill booster can be a good idea.

Depending on how good your will save is the clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder might be a good investment. You would need Seeker of Secrets to make any use of its main effect.


There is and the idea of a Hellknight Andoran Captain tickles me pink. I quite like the idea of a Taldan noble title as well.

K177Y C47 wrote:
since you wanna bring up action economy, How does a Toppling MM with a Lesser Quickened Rod sound to you? You can take out the enemy wizard via...

It sounds significantly less effective than a quickened aqueous orb, create pit, glitterdust, grease, silent image, blindness or pretty much any other control spell because toppling is a pretty terrible metamagic feat as your bonus to the check scales extremely poorly against anything other than less than full BaB humanoid opponents.

DrDeth wrote:

Well, here's the problem- "take greater spell focus" two feats to give you a +2 to ONE school. Sleep runs out of power very early and Color spray a level later. So BAMM!, all your feats and you are rather dangerous for a few levels against certain types of foes, and now you are pretty darn useless against (for example) undead.

So, it looks nice on paper, but no one ever really does it except to prove that low level wizards are powerful. It's not even really theorycrafting. It's simple building to prove a point.

And yes, 'equal" CR, but BBEG are often 2 CR higher.

Except it isn't a problem because enchantment contains more spells than sleep and illusion contains more than colour spray and those other spells remain effective throughout the game. We are not talking about horribly focused characters here, we are talking about people taking basic and very obvious CRB options.

Your BBEG may well be CR+2, frankly if you want him to last more than a round or two he should probably be CR+4 and come with friends and have PC level wealth. But even if you do that he is still very likely to have an easily exploited low save. PF simply has too many options to target each save with a multitude of disabling effects.

Also note with the Orb that if they are caught it becomes harder for them to get out. Entangled imposes a -4 dexterity penalty meaning their reflex defence will be two lower.

Dazing aqueous orb is horrid and arguably forces people who are caught to drown as daze prevents you from taking any actions. Holding your breath would seem to be a specific action which daze prevents.

DrDeth wrote:
Yeah, I know. But what they assume is super optimized just for that one spell builds vs a out of the book AP boss, most of whom will then fail very often. of course, if your DM allows such optimized builds, then it's only right to boost the monsters a bit too.

I don't think that "have a decent caster stat and take greater spell focus" really counts as being super optimised. In fact they seem to be part of the standard CRB assumption. Even if we are using 15 point buy it isn't unusual or difficult to start with a post racial 18 casting stat. Two very basic feats and you are at a level where it is very common for equal CR monsters to fail their saves. It is almost as if the system is designed to ensure that spells actually work on a fairly regular basis. Who would have thought such a thing might be possible.

Oh, I am well aware of why it doesn't scale. Nostalgia has a lot to answer for.

Persistent Spell will give you far better results than Heighten Spell and should be part of every sorcerers feat selection. Take a quick example. Lets say an enemy needs to roll an 11 to save against your orb. He has a 50% chance of passing. If you use Heighten to cast as a level 5 spell that goes down to 40%. If you instead apply persistent spell for the same level adjustment then that chance goes down to 25%. It is much more effective.

My only quibble would be that your charisma is very low for level 11. I would normally expect at least a post racial stat of 18.. With two level up bonuses that goes to 20. You would normally be able to afford at least a +4 headband by this point in time.

As others have mentioned you can also invest in spell focus and greater spell focus. Both are excellent choices for conjuration. I would also look into spells such as grease, create pit, glitterdust and hungry pit. Later on I would look at picking up dazing spell to go alongside stuff like acid arrow and ice spears as well as aqueous orb. A dazing aqueous orb is ludicrously potent board control if you can hike the DC

You might also want to consider your bloodline. I don't know how attached you are to draconic but arcane gives a significant boost. It adds an extra +1DC when you apply a metamagic feat and at level 15 you can pick a school of magic to add +2DC to (pick conjuration). You could gain that power now with the Robe of Arcane Heritage. If you wanted to do this and your GM doesn't allow retraining then see if you can find an Ampoule of False Blood. You use a different bloodlines powers while wearing it and can drink it to permanently switch.

Which is fine, unless you're playing an archetype like Thundercaller, Street Performer, Magician, or Sound Striker, all of which have abilities beside their spellcasting that can GREATLY aid allies at the cost of using Bardic Performance, which you get more rounds of, and increase the DC's of, with a higher Charisma score. Heck, a Wand of Fireball is just an "Okay" choice to anyone except a Magician.

The trouble with doing this as a bard is that they are actually quite MAD. Lets say that you want that starting 20 charisma. That means an array which looks a bit like one of these:

18, 14, 14, 11, 7, 7

18, 12, 12, 12, 11, 7

What do you do as a bard with those sorts of stats? A 7 can go into wisdom which isn't ideal as it is linked to will saves. You can patch that a bit with the irrepressible trait but it is a big weakness. In the first array where does the second seven go? It cant be Con and picking Str or Dex will impact on your combat potential significantly. That pretty much leaves Int. You can again patch that a bit with bardic performance but again you are taking a big hit on skills. The second array has only one dump stat but 12's in str, dex and con are going to mean you do very little other than spellcasting and whatever your archetype brings and you get very few spells per day.

I could see one way of making this work which would involve a single level dip for Lore Oracle and Sidestep Secret. Picking Noble Scion of War also allows you to use cha for initiative so you can completely dump dex. That would allow you to use the first spread, probably with the 11 in int and 14 dex/str. That might work but you still run into the issue of having very few spells per day and having to rely on whatever your trick is. In situations where it doesn't work then expct to have very little effectiveness.

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Zedth wrote:

At level 9, those 2 spells are less than useless.

Any higher level spells being compared to MM is a waste of time, as they're different slots that serve different purposes.

At level 9, after you've blown your 4th and 3rd level spells, there is still work to do, bad guys to fight. If you're in combat with 1 BigBad or 10 littleBads, are you telling me you'd rather have a color spray memorized than a MM??
Also what if you need to save your big gun spells? Are you supposed to crossbow every round? Why on earth wouldn't you use MM?

Also what about sorcerers? A 9th/10th level Sorcerer with MM is a beast. 5d4+5, round after round after round,(notwithstanding any meta feats and/or rods)that auto-hits at medium range is badass.

At level 9 I would far rather use something like Grease or Silent Image for level 1 slots than Magic Missile. If I want damage then Snowball at least offers the option of a useful debuff and it ignores SR. Yes you may sometimes take a penalty to hit but it is only likely to be -4 as it is fairly easy to move to a point where soft cover is irrelevant, especially if you are flying. Of course level 2 spell slots are fairly plentiful so I am much more likely to be dropping glitterdust, blindness, pilfering hand or create pit. I will take magic missile on a sorcerer but it is pretty much exclusively for incorporeal creatures and then only if I don't want to risk a control undead. A higher level I would definitely get rid of it for battering blast.

Also 18 damage per round at level 9 is about the opposite of being a beast for damage. It is about what you might expect from a level 1 barbarian with a two handed sword. CR9 opponents have 115hp on average and you can expect to be fighting multiple of them. 15% of the total health of an enemy is pretty hopeless compared to, say, disarming them with grease or trapping them in an illusionary box.

Checking it I cannot see a reference outlawing flight. It does say you are disqualified if you fall off and don't catch yourself.

Dipping an oracle level for it on a sorcerer is a terrible idea. You are already a level behind getting new levels of spells, waiting another level would be intolerable. Level 5 before you see your first level 2 spell, no thanks.

Sorcerers don't need it, they have access to a wide range of area and single target save or suck spells because they have the whole arcane list to play with. It is great for Oracles precisely because the Cleric list doesn't have many of those effects and those it does have tend to be more limited than arcane spells.

Davor wrote:
andreww wrote:
Hex is single target, I prefer my control to hit everything on the board. Thundercaller means a heavy focus on charisma or your DC will suck meaning you make significant sacrifices in other areas.

Yeah, Bards typically suck with high charisma.

Oh wai...

As it happens they do. It is rarely worth it to prioritise Charisma as your best stat. Bards simply do not get enough spell slots to play them like they are primary casters. A level 10 Bard has 1 4th level spell and 3 3rd level spells as a base. That is very few to work with over the course of a day and few of their other abilities work from it. Obviously you are not going to dump it but you rarely need more than a 14 at level 1 and can get buy with less. One of Str or Dex combined with Con are equally important for them.

Bards are not full casters and trying to play them like they were is going to cause you real problems.

Hex is single target, I prefer my control to hit everything on the board. Thundercaller means a heavy focus on charisma or your DC will suck meaning you make significant sacrifices in other areas.

Improved familiars using wands is a fairly common tactic. Pick the most common low level buff spells and go to town with improved action economy. Haste is an excellent choice as are things like Good Hope. For debuffs Ill Omen is very strong and does not allow a save.

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KrispyXIV wrote:

I don't get why it seems like a couple people are comparing Magic missile to higher level spells at ninth level. It's not competing with slots for wall of force... Its competing with mage armor and color spray.

And it's a wonderfully versatile and uncannily reliable offensive trick. It's not the best spell in the game, but it doesn't have to be to be good.

Magic Missile is the very opposite of versatile. It does one thing, a small amount of auto hitting damage. The only offensive thing about it is just how little damage it actually does. If you want a versatile level 1 spell then you want to be looking at things like Grease or Silent Image.

I compared it to level 9 as people above were recommending its use there. We actually have someone recommending using quickened magic missile in a level 5 spell slot. Given what you can actually do with level 5 spells that is just mind boggling to me.

seebs wrote:
It wouldn't be very heavy-hitting, would it? I don't think they get to use my casting ability, so my casting mod is wayyyy higher, as is my caster level. So it'd barely be better than having wands, except for recharging during downtime. (That said, I note that I have enough ranks in UMD that they could UMD any staff. Downside, I have no idea at all what the casting stat for the pseudodragon is, so I can't determine the spell DCs.)

You could give them staves which use spells without DC's. Monster Summoning, Walls and buff spells all work really well.

You can increase one stat every four levels. Also stat boosting magic items let you qualify so a Headband of Alluring Charisma will sort you out.

Man made of Magic wrote:
A lot of this is a repeat of earlier, but
  • 1:Ignores Concealment
  • 2:Quick Way to get rid of Mirror Image
  • 3:Multiple Targets at Once
  • 4:Best Toppling Spell Target for Debuff on top of Blast
  • 5:Ignores Incorporeality
  • 6:Automatic Hit
  • 7:Only needs a small portion of the enemy to target
  • 8:First Level Spell

Lets have a look at these:

Ignores Concealment: As does pretty much any other spell you are likely to cast. Ray spells are generally fairly bad.

Mirror Image: Doesn't work, you cannot target the images, they are not creatures. Magic Missile always hits and so ignores Mirror Image.

Toppling Spell: Spiritual Weapon is probably a better option as is Battering Blast. Toppling is however not very good as your bonus to knock them over scales poorly compared to CMD.

Ignores Incorporeal: This is perhaps the only benefit of the spell and the only reason I would ever bother with it.

Automatic Hit: Would only really be relevant if it did anything like relevant damage.

There is one small niche area in which the spell can be very effective. If you are in a game which you know is not going very far then a Human Tattooed Orc Blood Sorcerer with Spell Focus, Varisian Tattoo (free), Spell Specialisation and the Gifted Adept trait can push their caster level to 5 at level 1. They will be doing 3d4+6 damage per spell which has a good chance of one shotting most CR2 and lower opponents.

You can of course do better with crossblooded orc/draconic launching 5d4+10 burning hands but that requires you to sacrifice a lot of spells known and be right up in melee.

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Meh, it is a fairly terrible spell which does weak damage which does not scale at all. If you think doing 18 damage is a good use of your action at level 9 then I just don't know what to say other than that CR9 opponents have on average around 115hp.

It can be improved with the addition of things like Toppling Spell or Dazing Spell but otherwise is really not worth it. At level 1 I would much rather have things like Grease, Colour Spray, Silent Image or Sleep. At higher level I am not using level 1 spell slots for offence.

The only issue with using SM1 for traps now is that you need handle animal to get animal summons to do anything other than attack your enemies. Adding the template no longer gives them a language.

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