For the record, the reason why I settled on Even levels (as opposed to your odd) is to mirror the mechanic of the rogue and his talents. Since PF characters get a feat at every odd level anyway, and fighter was given the ability to get them at the even levels ALSO, I felt it was more appropriate to place the talents as a replacement for taking a standard combat feat.
Otherwise the fighter would be getting his odd-level feats as per the rules, and getting a talent, and then getting his bonus feats at the even levels on top of that; which I'm sure we can agree would be too much.
Thank you first off.
The reasons I went with odd levels were to attempt to differentiate it the rogue talents and rage powers, to not touch the majority of what bonus feats give (Not a really good reason I guess, at that point I just didn't want to mess with anything part of the original fighter), and to allow specialization to occur at first level (I recalled many fighter variants dropping the first level feat and giving a bunch of class skills, I wanted to try to include that in the variant.
---
Some of the abilities you give fighters I'm not so sure about. The bonuses to CMB (in combination with the talents that give bonuses to specific maneuvers) bother me because I am concerned that at higher levels a fighter specialized in disarming would just be able to disarm nearly everything with incredible ease and it would be nearly impossible for the opponent to get their weapon back. I don't want a DM to have to shove locked gauntlets on any non-fighter npc villain (barbarians, paladins, rangers, and rogues especially) that wields a weapon just so they are not disarmed in the first turn.
I don't like spell-bane, much because I don't really think it does much. I feel that it is about as useful as trap sense. I am concerned that it will just be another thing that the player will forget until the round after they hit the wizard, while I think that people are more likely to remember things that they had personally selected. I think that it should be powered up and moved to a talent (or fighter feat) just to avoid cluttering up the special abilities list.
My suggestion is similar to Robert’s, however mine just replaces the features at odd levels (first level bonus feat, armor training, weapon training, armor mastery) and doesn’t add additional abilities.
The replaced abilities just become additional choices for fighter talents, each selectable only once.
Other than that the abilities ideas are very similar, and I thought I throw a few of my ideas. Here are a few ideas I had for abilities that focus on specific weapons or weapon attacks.
Spoiler:
Feint Training: Prerequisites: Improved Feint, Fighter level 9
Benefits: If you successfully hit a creature with a light or one-handed melee weapon you can attempt to feint that creature as an immediate action.
Unavoidable Strike: Prerequisites: Fighter level 17
Benefits: If you would miss when attacking with a light weapon, as an immediate action, you can get a +10 bonus on the attack. If the attack now hits it deals half its normal damage.
Brawler’s Training: Benefits: Your unarmed attacks now deal 1d6 damage (1d4 if you are small).
Grapple Training: Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Fighter level 9
Benefits: As a swift action you turn your next attempted unarmed attack, before your next turn, into a grappling attack. If you hit with the attack then can immediately attempt a grapple maneuver against the creature you just hit.
Returning Training Prerequisites: Fighter level 5
Benefits: You can create a bond with a number of magic weapons equal to half your fighter level. When you throw these weapons they are considered to have the returning property. If you have a bond with a returning weapon, you can call it to your hand as a swift action (even after you had just thrown it). Creating a bond takes 10 minutes for a group of weapons and lasts 24 hours.
Grievous Wound Prerequisites: Fighter level 13
Benefits: You can make a single attack as a standard action, if it hits the damage is rolled normally and it is considered continuous damage over the round (for the purpose of maintaining concentration on a spell and the like). Also, on your next turn the target takes damage equal your weapon’s damage (without sneak attack or critical multipliers even if they were present for the initial wound and only hit point damage is dealt).
Persistent Wound: Prerequisites: Grievous Wound, Fighter level 17
Benefits: You can make a single attack as a full-round action, if it hits the damage is rolled normally. Also, the target takes bleed damage. To determine the amount of bleed then roll weapon damage (without sneak attack or critical multipliers even if they were present for the initial wound and only hit point damage is dealt).
This one is a little complicated. Probably too complicated, but it was one of the first ideas that I had and I just decided to not take it out just because I couldn’t figure out to say everything I wanted succinctly. It was originally just an ability to allow incredibly slow heavy armored fighters to keep up with creatures that often could nearly match the fighter’s run speed with a single move action.
Spoiler:
Along for the Ride: Prerequisites: Fighter level 11
Benefit: You can attempt a single melee attack with one of your weapons as a standard action. If you hit you deal damage normally and you become attached to the target until the end of your next turn. While attached whenever the target moves you move to an empty space adjacent to the target. If there is no such empty space then you don’t move and you are no longer attached. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for this movement and your target doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity from you for moving while you are attached.
If the target you are attached to moves using a physical move during a turn, then they must make a Strength check (DC 10 + your Strength bonus) or have their movement speed cut in half for that turn. You can stop being attached before they make the move action.
If the target is teleported, you can choose to become unattached; if you do the teleport works normally and you don’t move. Otherwise the target must make roll a d20 check with a bonus of the caster level of the spell vs. a DC of 11 + fighter level. If they succeed then you do not move and are no longer attached, otherwise you move with them.
If you delay your action you automatically become unattached and if something forces you to not be adjacent to your attached target then you become unattached.
And a couple more that are meant to give benefits for certain armor types and shield wielders.
Spoiler:
Overrun Training: Prerequisites: Fighter level 9
Benefits: While in heavy armor, when you overrun a target as a standard action and the attack is successful or the target chooses to avoid, then you can make a single attack on the target.
Light Armor Training: Prerequisites: Fighter level 3
Benefits: When in light armor (or unarmored) and unencumbered, your armor bonus increases by 2 (or becomes +2 if there wasn’t an armor bonus).
Sundering Shield: Prerequisites: Improved Sunder, Fighter level 9
Benefits: If you make an successful attack with a shield bash you can’t attempt a sunder maneuver on an item that opponent is wearing or holding as a immediate action.
Many of these could be turned into fighter feats. However for some reason over several years very few fighter specific feats have appeared. I would rather not repeat that I force it into a position where it has to be something unique to the fighter.
Maybe I'll agree on some of the stuff. He said it in a real jack-ass way. So I would rather not play 4e on the off chance I have to interact with people like him.
That's how I tend to feel about the people that are not converting to 4e - but then I have enough perspective to think of all the cool people that I like and respect that are sticking with 3.5/PFRPG and that makes it easier to tolerate the occassional a!##%!# who refers to me as a "d@&~*@%" because they don't like 4e.
Yeah, I'm just bouncing side from side, trying to remind people that if you say something badly people are less likely to agree with you and are in fact more likely to just go in the opposite direction of what that poster was advocating.
I did say the same thing to pro-3.5 posters a few months back, although that had mixed results.
Maybe I'll agree on some of the stuff. He said it in a real jack-ass way. So I would rather not play 4e on the off chance I have to interact with people like him.
For me he is worse than the 3.5 "whiners" for getting me to play 4e.
Honestly, I don't really care if some people want to stick with the clunkier system of 3.5 Just look at the thread on Pathfinder Skills, those skills are a mess compared to the 4E list.
What bothers me is that there may be some people who might have an interest in 4E who look at all of the whining about it here on the Paizo forums and end up not checking it out for themselves.
And if Paizo continues to expend their resources and products on 3.5, then that's just less product I will purchase from them. I said time and time again that the anti-4E camp was just a vocal minority and the fact that the 4E set has been on Amazons best seller list for a while now has proven me right. I'm going to be signing up for Goodman Game's 4th Edition Dungeon Crawl Classics and as they are being released very soon. We are also playing Keep on the Shadowfell and will continue with the other WotC modules. If Paizo doesn't want to focus on it, that doesn't affect me.
Here we have an excellent example of how to not win over converts.
Yeah, that kind of makes me want to not play 4e or even suggest to anyone new to the game to play 4e.
See above post. Is this a start? Talents to fit an arch-type, but not arbitrary - feats if you prefer, to build your own....
Robert
I suggested something similar on the If there is one thing you would change about Alpha 3... thread. Although my suggestion was to have the fighter talents on every odd level and have them replace the first level bonus feat and the weapon and armor training/mastery. (I think I prefer warrior's training for the name, but that doesn't really matter)
If you are referring to the ranger's favored enemy list on page 36 then those are two different columns. They are separate and not connected. Humanoid (orc) and Vermin are two different entries in that table.
I would like to see the fighter abilities at every odd level be changed into a sort of like the rogue’s talent or rage power (The abilities that would be replaced would be the first level bonus feat, the armor training, the weapon training, the armor mastery, and the weapon mastery too even though it is not an odd level ability). You would pick one item from a list at every odd level. Every item would be selectable only once, most would have require you to have other items from the list as well as level requirements. Possibly even feat or skill requirements.
A few examples would be:
Extra Training: Grants: Gain another fighter bonus feat.
Armor Training I: Prerequisites: Fighter level 3 Grants: Gain the armor training ability (+1 bonus)
Armor Training II: Prerequisites: Fighter level 7, Armor Training I Grants: The armor training bonus increases to 2.
Weapon Training I: Prerequisites: Fighter level 5 Grants: Gain the weapon training ability (+1 bonus)
Armor Mastery: Prerequisites: Fighter level 19 Grants: The armor mastery ability
Add so on for the similar abilities replicating the odd level fighter abilities (and weapon mastery). This just so the fighter has a built in way to let people easily create new abilities for fighters without making them fighter specific feats or substitution levels, the exact nature of the abilities is not as important to me as the ability to choose between multiple abilities is.
Cultured Training: Grants: Gain Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility), and Sense Motive as class skills. Also gain four skill points.
Blind Warrior: Prerequisites: Fighter level 5 Grants: Blindsense 5 feet/two fighter levels and Perception as a class skill Special: If you have Blind-Flight, it’s benefits are now applied to ranged attacks within your blindsense range.
Unarmored Training: Grants: Monk’s AC Bonus except you may choose between Intelligence, Charisma, or Wisdom to add to your AC. This does not stack with the monk’s and other AC Bonus abilities.
So, yes, Concentration is not just for spellcasters.
Of course, I just meant that 99% of the time it is for spellcasters and that you are unlikely to see them used for anyone else, but it is not impossible.
However, rogues do not even get Concentration as a class skill, and again the situation is very unlikely to come up naturally in a game. Just because other classes have uses for it doesn't mean that it is useful for those classes to spend ranks in it for the normal campaign.
I agree with this completely. Also, from memory, the Concentration skill was the skill that Rogues could take advantage of when working on opening locks or disabling traps while battle raged around them. It wasn't just for spellcasters.
Concentration was used when a rogue was hit when using one of those skills in a battle.
I never saw it used for non-spellcasting (or psionic) area actually with the exception for a warblade who had a couple powers that used it.
The cap is generally necessary if you are progressing abilities that you don't want to see jump ten levels when you just take one level at 19th level. Things like sneak attack that would go up to 5d6 with that or spells per day which would allow 5th level spells. I would think that it wouldn't be nessary if you are improving abilities like bravery or trap sense.
The double class level doesn't reward class dipping, which I'm fine with, and it seems to do pretty well when the levels are closer. It does seem to really boost characters with several classes. While changing it to the only giving the bonus for the highest other class makes it so that the class combination with a large number of base classes is one where there is one high leveled class and several lower ones.
For example using only the highest other class, a Cleric 5/Druid 5/Fighter 5/Paladin 5 would get a +2 level for improvable abilities. However a Cleric 8/Druid 4/Fighter 4/Paladin 4 would get a +2 for improvable cleric abilities and +4 for all other classes improvable abilities. That brings the weakest classest still equal to the evenly classes individual classes.
Another suggestion might be to set the cap to one and a half the class level and keep using the combined levels from all your other base classes. That way for a character with the class levels 10/5/5 then the effective levels would be 15/7/7 as opposed to the 12/10/10 (with the double limit and using the highest other class level) or 15/10/10 (with the double limit and using the combined level of other classes).
Or
8/3/3/3/3 (class levels)
14/6/6/6/6 (with the double limit and using the combined level of other classes)
9/6/6/6/6 (with the double limit and using the highest other class level)
12/6/6/6/6 (1.5 effective class level limit and using combined level of other classes)
Or
4/4/4/4/4 (class levels)
8/8/8/8/8 (with the double limit and using the combined level of other classes)
6/6/6/6/6 (with the double limit and using the highest other class level)
6/6/6/6/6 (1.5 effective class level limit and using combined level of other classes)
I still haven't come up with any answer that I feel is good. The quickest thing to come to me has been capping precision die damage to 1/2 character level rounded up ( and that they can choose with each attack how much of the attack is sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish dice ). It causes some issues for some characters that manage to exceed this limit already by taking (prestige classes or other base class; like the rogue 5/assassin 1 which gets four dice of precision damage despite having a character level of six). I don't really like how well this works but nothing better has come to my mind.
Now for the Rakshasa casters. As mentioned before when letting the caster level of a Rakshasa sorcerer go uncapped or even capped at ECL then the caster level was nearly identical to the caster level of a straight sorcerer of the same level. This has not changed. The Rakshasa lacks many of the sorcerer's other class abilities, their skills are much lower, and probably will be down hit points because of having less hit dice. However I don't think these alone counteract the rakshasa's extensive racial abilities at 20th level.
So I'll be capping the class abilities (sorcerer casting) at the hit dice.
While I think this stinks for monstrous characters with large level adjustments and little racial hit dice, I can't think of a better way to handle it. This combined with the rule from Unearthed Arcana that allows a character to reduce their level adjustment over a large number of level might produce some good results, but the rakshasa would take many levels before getting to the point where the level adjustment would be reduced by one (to a +6, I think it would need to be 35th level for this).
Spoiler:
Rakshasa Eldritch Knight 6
Base attack bonus +13
Spells as a 12th sorcerer
Bonus feat
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Rakshasa Sorcerer 3/Fighter 3 (Using rule)
Base attack bonus +11
Caster level 13
Sorcerer Abilities (6th level):
Eschew Materials
Arcane Bloodline: Arcane Bond, Metamagic Adept 1/day
Extra Spells Known (1st [identify] and 2nd level [invisibility])
Spells as a 13th level sorcerer
Fighter Abilities (6th level):
Bonus feats (4)
Bravery +2
Armor Training
Weapon Training
In this case the multiclassed character is more powerful in my opinion. I think it might be appropriate to try to drop the power below the prestige class option. This and other characters have been bugging me as well and I am tempted to lower the cap on effective character level from double class level to one and half times class level. That would maintain the current power for characters with level divided evenly between two classes, but reduce the power of characters that have been unbalanced levels. I'm not sure that this is the best, but I'm not really sure of anything so I'll just go with this for now and see how it works out.
If the cap is reduced to 1.5 times class level for the Rakshasa it's abilities change to:
Spoiler:
Rakshasa Sorcerer 3/Fighter 3 (Using rule with lowered cap)
Base attack bonus +11
Caster level 11
Sorcerer Abilities (4th level):
Eschew Materials
Arcane Bloodline: Arcane Bond, Metamagic Adept 1/day
Extra Spells Known (1st level [identify])
Yes, I don't allow free multiclassing for Monks or Paladins... I din't say they weren't allowed to take the feats that allow multiclassing...
And those feats provide other benefits beside just multiclassing... for example, Ascetic Knight from CompAdventurer allows Paladin and Monk to freely multiclass together an in addition levels from both classes stack for determining unarmed strike damage and the extra damage generated by Smite Evil ability.
I'm sorry. I got from your previous comment that you would disallow any feat that removed the multiclassing restriction.
Those feats are pretty much an obvious choice for a character that multiclasses with Paladin. There is pretty much no reason not to take them. The other benefit you talk about is worth the feat itself even if the restriction is removed. In my mind they are basically Be Awesome feats that just happen to remove the restriction as well.
Multiclassing feats are useful for multiclassed characters, I wasn't saying they weren't. I'm saying the lines about the restriction (in the paladin and monk classes and the feats and the prestige classes) were a waste of space.
If you were able to remove that "you can now multiclass freely" line I think they would have been able to fit in another feat.
Also, what do you think is stopping a multiclassed paladin or monk from continuing training as a paladin or a monk? Is it their god? The order? Why would either of them all of a sudden take back their fallen breathren just because he learned more about combining the two?
Question: If a feat appeared in PRPG that allowed Paladin's to multiclass freely, would you houserule it away?
Pretty much yes.
Just like in some present campaigns, some DMs houserule the multiclass restriction away now.
It's just a matter of how you envision the Paladin. (Galahad in full plate for me... something else for other people).
I just think there so many actual problems with 3.5 that affect gamebalance that worrying about things that don't seems a waste of time to me. Again the emphasis is on me for the last statement, as maybe to some the multiclassing of Paladins is a serious issue.
Then I think removing the restriction is better for those that really like playing RAW. Some people want to play multiclassed paladin's without keeping a record of the order they took their classes. So then they would be a feat that would just take up space for any organized games that have to play by RAW. Everyone else would not use that feat (either banning it or granting it automatically) making it a waste of space that could be put to better use in my opinion.
It is a quick removal of a single line that doesn't affect your games at all since you already bar anything that might allow Paladin multiclassing.
For me this is just a minor concern that only needs a minor amount of attention. Not something that requires a large amount of worrying. It got a minor amount of attention. I don't think that any vast game fixes were lost because time was spent not entering in that restriction.
This is a minimal change, and it changes pretty much nothing.
If it changes pretty much nothing then why make the change?
It lets them use the space in a book they would have spent on the Paladin or Monk Multiclassing feat on something else. Something new that I would find more interesting.
It's a minimal change that has a positive effect (space that would have spent describing it, and allowing you to ignore it [paladin prestige classes] would be spent on other things.)
Question: If a feat appeared in PRPG that allowed Paladin's to multiclass freely, would you houserule it away?
While I think that there might be some tweaks to the user interface that would make the website better, I really like the speed at which the Paizo site loads most of the time. Getting onto these pages is easy compared to other similar websites. I would rather it stay the way it is if it meant longer load times.
However, an art gallery would be awesome when they get a chance.
After seeing a comment on another thread I decided to try to do something real quick to compare an eldritch knight to a fighter/wizard that uses the multiclassing rule.
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Eldritch Knight without the rule: Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10
Wizard Abilities (8th level):
Arcane bond
Scribe Scroll
School power [evocation] (specialist bonus, energy ray, magic missile 4/day, scorching ray 1/day, lightning bolt 1/day, elemental wall)
Bonus feat
Spells (17th level)
Eldritch Knight (10th level):
Bonus feat
-----------
Fighter 10/Wizard 10
+15 base attack bonus
caster level 14
Fighter Abilities (14th level):
Bonus feat (8), bravery +4, armor training (3), weapon training (3)
Wizard Abilities (14th level):
Arcane bond
Scribe Scroll
School power [evocation] (specialist bonus, energy ray, magic missile 7/day, scorching ray 1/day, lightning bolt 1/day, elemental wall, wall of force 1/day, chain lightning 1/day, prismatic spray 1/day)
Bonus feat (2)
Spells (14th level)
-----------
I'm not feeling too clear headed right now, so I'm not really sure how this turned out. The Eldritch Knight has more powerful spells (9th vs 7th) as well as a slightly higher base attack bonus (one higher), but the fighter/wizard gets six more bonus feats (5 fighter, 1 wizard) plus three armor and weapon trainings.
Right now, to me, it seems close. I'm just not sure how much those higher level spells are worth in bonus feats and higher ac, attack, and damage. I think I try to come back to later and leave this here.
NOTE: Using the multiclassing rule the eldritch knight would also get armor training and another bonus fighter feat.
However, the point of this revision is to fix what's broken while doing the minimal change necessary. The multiclass restriction isn't broken per say so changing it would be done just for the sake of changing it. Any DM is free to lift the restriction if he so chooses, no need to make this change in my opinion.
And there is no reason to keep it in my opinion. In the several years there have been so many feats and prestige class that have said that you can still multiclass with paladin. Removing it means they can spend the space that they would normally use for feats that remove the restriction on a more special feat.
In my experience, most people I've seen play paladin's avoided the restriction anyway, not by breaking the rule but by just walking around it. By taking those two fighter levels first or by just using rules that let them ignore it like prestige classes and feats that removed/or were an exception to the restriction.
This is a minimal change, and it changes pretty much nothing.
Before: People multiclass in and out of paladin freely through feats that they would have taken anyway.
Now: People multiclass in and out of paladin freely.
That is probably correct if a person takes 20 levels of just base classes. I've nearly never seen anyone do that though in person, almost everyone past a certain point goes into a Prestige Class, even in role-playing heavy settings.
PrCs are in the SRD, which means by default Pathfinder is going to inherit quite a few of them. Instead of Fighter 10/Wizard 10 we'll see something like Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Archmage 2 which gives us 16 BAB and 17 caster level.
I believe the use of multiclassing in this thread is about multiclassing between base classes without prestige classes.
While I've seen a ranger/scout (with a multiclassing feat that let the levels stack for a few abilties) I would rather PRPG not have to say, "Look in all these other books to make multiclassing work well." I would like to find a way to solve the problem without relying on stacks of other books.
Now there are two things bothering me enough to keep me up for quite a while almost into the early morning.
The first is that how poorly this works with classes that linearly improve, stack, and have different names. Like a warrior class that had all the fighter's abilities and they all stacked with the fighter abilities. Combining those two classes would create a class that is better than either class at nearly everything they do.
For a real class combination to show this, I would say rogue and the ninja (from Complete Adventurer). The rogue gets sneak attack and the ninja gets the similar sudden strike that has the same damage and increases at the same pace as a rogue's sneak attack.
I'm not exactly sure how to come to an elegant solution so that I can at least handle classes with various forms of sneak attack. Maybe say that sneak attack classes have a "sneak attacker level" and that would allow them to be capped when combining two similar classes. But then that might lead to problems when deciding how much of that "sneak attacker level" should advance a skirmish ability vs a sudden strike ability (when combining three classes, two of which have some form of sneak attack). I feel this is a significant problem for ease of use of this rule.
The second thing that is bothering me is that the first thing was keeping me awake in the first place. Maybe now that I got this down I might be able to get to sleep without stressing over 20th level rogue/ninjas that get an extra 24d6 of damage when attacking from hiding.
The stacking idea sounds reasonable, I am just worried about it getting very complex with three or more classes. I rather it is be simple so that the player doesn't have to do seperate math for minor abilities (add the level of these two classes, subtract three, then add half the level of the other classes). It may not be as complex as I am thinking though.
Yeah, as written all class features are advanced. I am certain that this system can be balanced if the abilities that were improved were specified for each individual class. For example I am actually a little bit concerned that fighter levels will be too good if they grant many feats to people who take a reletively small number of levels in the class (I'm not certain it's bad, but it worries me a bit); I wouldn't have to worry about that if the fighter feats were not gained by multiclassing characters. However what I'm hoping from this rule is to create something that avoids special rules for each class, just to save on time to create them and the space in the books and such. I'm sure your idea would work, probably better I think, I just wanted to just keep the size of this rule short and sweet if I could manage it. I really do hope that it works like this or with slight modifications. But if it doesn't my next suggestion would be to do what you suggest.
The heavily lopsided multiclass was something I that showed up in the very beginning. I think that the limit on the bonus handles most of that. Currently your effective level in a class can not be more than double than your actual level in the class. So the Sorcerer 2/Monk 18 would have the abilities of a 4th level sorcerer (as opposed to a 10th level sorcerer without that cap). I have not looked though to see if it is unbalanced though, even with this limit, because I just assumed it was fine after that. I probably should still look at it.
---
Compared to 20th level monk the multiclassed character not using the multiclassing rule loses:
1 base attack bonus
1 Fort
1 Ref
Loses about two hit points on average due to hit die change
4 skill points
1 point from the ki pool
empty body
+1 ac bonus
increase unarmed damage
perfect self
unlimited slow fall
And gains:
more class skills
2 Will
1st level bloodline power
eschew materials
at least four (probably five) 1st level spells per day
Spells Known
5 - 0 level
2 - 1st level
---
Using the rule the character also gains:
3rd level bloodline power
two more 1st level spells per day
at least three (probably four) 2nd level spells per day
Spells Known
1 more 0 level
1 more 1st level (and one more 1st level spell from bloodline)
1 - 2nd level
---
Either way, to me, it doesn't look like the multiclass character is more powerful than the 20th level monk or even that the versitility of the multiclassed character is guarenteed to be worth more that than the lost power. I am somewhat wary of characters that take only as many levels of their lesser class to keep getting bonuses from other class levels though. The end product to me seem to be a little high, I'm not completely sure though.
It definitly bumps the power of multiclassed characters, but I'm not so sure it will increase the power of the majority of characters from the optimization board. From what I remember that was usually a few levels in a couple base classes followed by several prestige classes. This rule doesn't improve the abilities of prestige classes and taking levels in prestige classes does not improve your base class abilities. So the Fighter 2/Ranger 3/Rogue 3/Prestige classes of awesome melee would not get anything extra, and the Fighter 2/Cleric 3/Bard 4/Bardic prestige classes would only get 1 more level of Fighter and Cleric abilities. If however there were incredible builds that only used base classes, then that would definitly concern me quite a bit. At least more than I am right now.
The character is not training as Fighter, the character is training as a Fighter/Wizard?
If he's training as a Fighter/ Wizard then he should take a level of Fighter then a Level of Wizard... thus advancing both skill sets over time. D&D abandoned the concept of the true multiclass "Fighter/Wizard" with version 3.0 and has moved to training classes separately.
I'm Ok with bringing back old school style multi-classing. If you are serious about it then how about coming up with a proposal that works for all classes not just casters. There is a proposal hopping around here.
-- Dennis
I just meant that there were reasons for advancing the abilities of your other classes when leveling in one class. I'm not that familiar with the previous multiclassing systems.
I really hope my proposal in the other thread would work for the non-casting classes too.
What justification would you propose for a Fighter level increasing your Wizard's caster level?
The character is not training as Fighter, the character is training as a Fighter/Wizard? He is not some character who one day drops all his martial training to hit the books, then next week completely forgets about wizardry to train his martial skill.
Prestige classes should not be used that way in my opinion. It makes them less prestigious when they are required if you want to multiclass significantly. Besides I should have to leap through hoops and go through a huge library just to find something for my Barbarian/Druid. I should be able to do it easily and without having a giant library. Prestige classes should be special and optional, not required to make your class combination work.
I guess I should have looked in more than the new rules suggestions forums before posting this thread. I guess I took too long between having the idea appear in my mind to when I finally got the post up. Unless there are any objections I will just throw stat blocks into here so that I don’t clutter up the other threads.
I simplified what I was doing to save on some time as well as avoid equipment abilities overshadowing the character abilities. I also say the number of spells per day, but these do not include bonus spells for high ability scores.
The multiclassing rule for these stats is: for determining your class abilities (not hit dice, base attack bonus, base saves, or skill points) you use that class’s level plus half of the level of the highest-level class from among your other base classes minus one, maximum is double the class’s level and minimum is the class’s level. If an ability ends up using a higher level (through it stacking with two or more classes) than your character level then cap it at character level.
This set is comparing the mystic theurge (with and without the multiclassing rule) to two different forms of a wizard/cleric. One that divides the levels evenly between classes and another that pushes the “maximum is double the class’s level” limit by taking only as much as it needs of the second class to be able to get the increase in effective level.
Wizard (divination specialist, prohibited illusion and enchantment)
Cleric (protection and rune domains)
Basic Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge without Multiclassing rule
8th level
Spoiler:
wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 2
wizard abilities: (3rd level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells)
Scribe Scroll
I am a little concerned that adding the rule to mystic theurge might overpower it, but from this I’m not that worried. The most powerful spells it can cast are not more powerful, instead it is just more powerful with it’s weaker spells. It is quite a jump though, and it is too much for me to just be able to say that I’m not concerned about it. However it is not out of the expected range of power if mystic theurge went on for another three levels so I’m not incredibly concerned.
Next are two different character progressions using the multiclassing rule and not taking levels in mystic theurge.
Even levels
8th level
Spoiler:
wizard 4/cleric 4
wizard abilities: (5th level unless otherwise noted)
divination school (you can always act in the surprise…, diviner’s fortune, true strike 2/day, see invisibility 1/day)
arcane bond-familiar (alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master)
Scribe Scroll, Bonus Wizard Feat
In general I’m happy with this outcome. In either set the spells were less powerful than what could be done with the mystic theurge. They were often lagging a spell level behind (expect at the earliest levels of mystic theurge. That level of spells in traded in for a number of lower level abilities. To me, it looks about right just eyeballing it. It allows the wizard/cleric to operate without a prestige class, but mystic theurges still are better at performing their specialty (casting spells).
Next will be rakshasa sets that help me look at spellcasting monsters PCs with classes. Unless someone is very helpful and knows of another spellcasting monster that has less of a minimum effective character level than the rakshasa.
When you choose a different class to advance in, you give up the features of the other class, all of them. Its part of the price for the versatility of multiclass characters.
However I feel that the versatility for many of the multiclass characters is overpriced. What I would like is either the price to be dropped or the value of multiclassing to be raised.
I think the the price is too high. Stop overcharging.
The current system gives them a small window to keep fighting when, otherwise, they'd just be dead. True, they better take at least *some* of that free time to quaff a potion or beg a heal or something,- but it's time that raging gives them that they'd not otherwise have had.
The way it exists currently is just fine. If you don't want to take advantage of the HP it gives you, then get out of combat a little sooner rather than a little later.
-S
Otherwise, they would probably be unconscious most of the time.
How many times have people seen enemies attack the a creature just because they were still standing? If they fell down they would just walk over the body to block the healer easy access to the body without putting himself in a weak position?
I don't want my barbarians to be more concerned about the wounds they are taking than the fighters. "Barbarian will go down if he takes two more hits. WITHDRAW!" vs. "Fighter will go down if he takes three more hits. STAND YOUR GROUND!"
I would just like an option for the barbarian not to be forced to continue to rage after the battle has ended just to be able to stay alive. I would rather he be able to just stop raging and collapse when there are no more enemies rather than continue screaming and frothing at the mouth while downing a few potions of cure light wounds.
Yeah, I haven't noticed serious problems with multiclassing non-spellcasting classes either, but I wasn't sure if that was because there was no real difference in power or that I hadn't seen enough of it to be able to notice it. I was mainly going off of the random class/class feats that improve the abilities of two non-spellcasting classes rather than the personal experience I have.
Another thing I should note about the monstrous PCs rule should probably not be used for NPCs or villians. Mostly because for some monsters that get a two class levels for one CR for quite a while.
Now for something a little different, this next PC is supposed to try to break the system by using it’s high sorcerer abilities and augmenting them with sorcerer levels.
rakshasa sorcerer
Spoiler:
ECL: sorcerer SORCERER LEVEL (EFFECTIVE SORCERER LEVEL WITH HD, EFFECTIVE SORCERER LEVEL WITH HD AND LA) [CASTER LEVEL WITH HD, CASTER LEVEL WITH HD AND LA]
15th: sorcerer 1 (2) [9]
16th: sorcerer 2 (4) [11]
17th: sorcerer 3 (6) [13]
18th: sorcerer 4 (7, 8) [14, 15]
19th: sorcerer 5 (8, 10) [15, 17]
20th: sorcerer 6 (9, 12) [16, 19]
One of the first things I noticed is while he has high level spells, that he only gets some of the mid-level sorcerer class abilities. The loss of the higher-level sorcerer abilities might be considered a trade for a couple of the rakshasa abilities. When using the HD with LA system his caster level (along with the highest level spells he can cast) gets incredibly close to the caster level of a straight sorcerer (and manages to match it in epic levels). This example does not leave me confidant of the balance of using HD + LA for the multi-classing bonus.
As mentioned in a earlier section, when two classes grant an ability that stacks with the other it can it weird when the multi-classing system leaves your effective level for that ability higher than your character level. So one might consider that if abilities were capped at character level (or hit dice total) then this would leave most of this character’s information inaccurate. I see no real point in reprinting this character’s abilities since if his sorcerer level were capped at hit dice then the only thing he would gain over the standard system would be some extra sorcerer class abilities. However if the rakshasa multi-classed between sorcerer and fighter then there would be significant gains over the standard system, but that would take a bit more time so I’ll finish this post and create PCs with that information later.
Other things:
I like to think I covered a lot of things with this so far, but there are some things that I haven’t really looked into in depth and am somewhat concerned about. The first I would note is epic rules and how well this rule works when carried beyond 20th level. My system might work well at non-epic and break when the epic feats start coming down.
Another would be multi-classed monstrous PCs. The monstrous PCs I listed so far only have one class so I’m not quite sure how it works out when they take multiple classes using this rule.
So … what do you think? I think I’m just going to lie down for a bit now.
Ok, this is going to be bit long. I’ve been trying to work on this a while (little more that a week) with some helpful comments from other people on the chatroom. All of the stat blocks do not use the rules that I consider current (which are near the bottom of this initial set of posts and above the comments about monstrous PCs). I present them because I wanted to show how I got to this point (also if I type this much I really don’t want to keep it to myself).
So hopefully enjoy!
Multi-classing:
Currently when you multi-class, you stop gaining power in your current class to train in another class. In this way you give up a higher-level ability for a weaker ability and the chance to be more versatile. This sounds fine, that is the point of multi-classing in my opinion. However I think there is a problem if, by multi-classing, instead of dropping slightly behind the power of a single classed character you are far behind what the single classed character can do. It isn’t even a problem of being a jack of all trades and a master of none; it seems at times that you have a few extra things you can do, you’re your abilities pale in comparison to those your ally’s cohort. The effects of this drop in power seem to be hardest felt by spellcasters who have significant increases in power when they get access to their more powerful spells.
It is not like this has been ignored, there have been a couple of solutions to this in d20 that I’ve seen. The first is the multi-classing prestige class like Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight. They require you to take a few levels in a pair of base classes, then you can enter the prestige class and progress some of the abilities from each class more quickly than if you were to just take levels in the base classes. They tend to favor combining a spellcasting class with another class with a few exceptions. This works out reasonably well for me except that you have to wait a several levels to get into the prestige class and often, until you do, you are going to fall painfully behind more and more. Also each of these prestige classes takes a significant amount of space and most are not OGC. I would rather that space be put to better use than to make a single multi-classing option more viable.
Another thing that has popped up are multi-classing feats that allow you to use the combined level of two base classes to determine how powerful some of your class abilities were. Unlike the prestige classes these combine non-spellcasting classes much more often. These take much less space, but if used like this then there would be a feat for every combination of a class with another class. Several pages can be consumed easily if this route is taken, a better option might be to just have a single feat for each class that lets a select number of that classes abilities use your character level instead of your class level. That way they still would benefit multi-classed characters without having a feat for every class combination.
My idea:
Let me start this by saying that my goal is not to create a gestalt-type variant in which every character has abilities from multiple classes. I don’t want this rule to make multi-classed characters more powerful than single classed characters. My goal for this rule is to allow multi-class characters in general to work reasonably well without prestige classes, so that they can feel that they don’t have to take a prestige class just because they multi-classed. In effect I want to mimic what would be a weak generic prestige class that gives the abilities of both of the character’s base classes.
So if the character is a barbarian/druid as he progresses he continues to improve in his rage abilities and his druidic spellcasting and shapeshifting as if he were leveling in a generic barbarian/druid prestige class. I am not saying that I want to eliminate multi-classing prestige classes, I would like it to be more of an choice than it is currently. If you were to build a wizard/cleric then the character is almost certain to be a mystic theurge, otherwise the character falls farther and farther behind the power of other characters. I feel this is similar to what an archmage was like to a wizard in 3.5, it was just an advanced wizard with little reason to not enter it. It is my hope that with this new rule that you might see more multi-class characters not enter these prestige classes so that when you do see a character that is in one of these prestige classes, that they seem more special and unique.
When you multi-class you are treated as having a higher level in each of those classes for determining which class abilities and the power of those abilities. For determining your class abilities (not hit dice, base attack bonus, base saves, or skill points) you use that class’s level plus half of the level of the highest-level class from among your other base classes, maximum is double the class’s level.
The basic example would be a fighter/wizard. If he had 4 levels of fighter and 5 levels of wizard then he would get the abilities of a 6th level fighter (4 + 5/2 = 6.5) and the abilities of a 7th level wizard (5 + 4/2 = 7). He would still have the base attack bonus, base saves, skill points, and hit dice of a Fighter 4/Wizard 5, but he would more feats and better spellcasting (more spells per day, more spells known) than that.
Here are some characters I stated up at multiple levels using 20 point buy and the PC wealth from the Pathfinder RPG rules. I believe I made a few mistakes in there (I don’t think I took into account armor check penalties in the skills for example), but I think they are reasonably close to correct. I also left off the racial features other than ability modifiers to save on some time.
Thunk half-orc barbarian/sorcerer
3rd level character
Spoiler:
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 13
Base Attack Bonus: +2
Base Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +2
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x2, sorcerer 2; total 10
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 1 rank, Climb 1 rank, Intimidate 3 ranks, Spellcraft 3 ranks, Survival 1 rank, Swim 1 rank
Base HP: 2d12 (barbarian) + 1d6 (sorcerer) + 3x3 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x2 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*1 + 3.5*1 + 9 + 2 = 33
Equipment: (3,000 gp)
masterwork greataxe 320 gp
ring of deflection +1 2,000 gp
680 gp
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge
Sorcerer: claws (1d6)
4th level character
Spoiler:
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 14
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Base Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +3
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x2, sorcerer 2x2; total 12
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 1 rank, Climb 1 rank, Intimidate 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Survival 1 rank, Swim 1 rank
Base HP: 2d12 (barbarian) + 2d6 (sorcerer) + 3x4 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x2 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*1 + 3.5*2 + 12 + 2 = 39
Equipment: (6,000 gp)
+1 greataxe 2320 gp
ring of protection +1 2,000 gp
1680 gp
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge
Sorcerer: claws (1d6), demon resistances (resist elec 5, +2 vs poison)
8th level character
Spoiler:
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 15
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Base Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +5
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x4, sorcerer 2x4; total 24
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 2 ranks, Climb 2 ranks, Fly 1 rank, Intimidate 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Survival 2 ranks, Swim 1 rank
Base HP: 4d12 (barbarian) + 4d6 (sorcerer) + 3x8 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x4 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*3 + 3.5*4 + 24 + 4 = 73
Equipment: (33,000 gp)
+2 greataxe 8320 gp
ring of protection +2 8,000 gp
belt of mighty constitution +2 4,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +1 6,000 gp
leather armor 10 gp
cloak of resistance +2 4,000 gp
2670 gp
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense +2, improved uncanny dodge
Sorcerer: claws (1d6 magic), demon resistances (resist elec 5, +2 vs poison)
12th level character
Spoiler:
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 16
Base Attack Bonus: +9
Base Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +7
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x6, sorcerer 2x6; total 36
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 3 ranks, Climb 2 ranks, Fly 2 ranks, Intimidate 12 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks, Survival 3 ranks, Swim 2 ranks
Base HP: 6d12 (barbarian) + 6d6 (sorcerer) + 3x12 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x6 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*5 + 3.5*6 + 36 + 6 = 107
Equipment: (108,000 gp)
+3 greataxe 18,320 gp
ring of protection +3 18,000 gp
belt of physical might (dexterity, constitution) +2 10,000 gp
headband of alluring charisma +2 4,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +2 24,000 gp
cloak of resistance +4 16,000 gp
+3 chain shirt 9,250 gp
8430 gp
Barbarian Rage: (56 rage points)
Rage Types: rage
Rage Powers: moment of clarity, intimidating glare, animal fury, renewed vigor
Sorcerer Spells: (9th caster level)
4th – dimension door, elemental body I, stoneskin
3rd – haste, keen edge, vampiric touch, rage
2nd – alter self, darkness, false life, scorching ray, bull’s strength
1st – enlarge person, expeditious retreat, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, cause fear
0 – acid splash, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, ray of frost, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense +3, improved uncanny dodge, DR 1/-
Sorcerer: claws (1d8 magic), demon resistances (resist elec 10, +4 vs poison), strength of the abyss
16th level character
Spoiler:
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 17
Base Attack Bonus: +12
Base Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +8
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x8, sorcerer 2x8; total 48
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 3 ranks, Climb 3 ranks, Fly 3 ranks, Intimidate 16 ranks, Spellcraft 16 ranks, Survival 4 ranks, Swim 3 ranks
Base HP: 8d12 (barbarian) + 8d6 (sorcerer) + 3x16 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x8 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) = 12 + 6.5*7 + 3.5*8 + 48 + 8 = 141
Equipment: (315,000 gp)
+5 ghost touch greataxe 72,320 gp
ring of protection +5 50,000 gp
belt of physical might (dexterity, constitution) +4 40,000 gp
headband of alluring charisma +4 16,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +3 54,000 gp
cloak of resistance +5 25,000 gp
+5 chain shirt 25,250 gp
32,430 gp
Sorcerer Spells: (12th caster level)
6th – beast shape IV
5th – prying eyes, wall of force, dismissal
4th – dimension door, elemental body I, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd – dispel magic, haste, keen edge, vampiric touch, rage
2nd – acid arrow, alter self, darkness, false life, scorching ray, bull’s strength
1st – enlarge person, expeditious retreat, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, cause fear
0 – acid splash, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, prestidigitation, ray of frost, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense +4, improved uncanny dodge, DR 2/-
Sorcerer: claws (1d8 magic + 1d6 fire), demon resistances (resist elec 10, +4 vs poison), strength of the abyss
20th level character
Spoiler:
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 17
Base Attack Bonus: +15
Base Saves: Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +10
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 4x10, sorcerer 2x10; total 60
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 4 ranks, Climb 4 ranks, Fly 4 ranks, Intimidate 20 ranks, Spellcraft 20 ranks, Survival 4 ranks, Swim 4 ranks
Base HP: 10d12 (barbarian) + 10d6 (sorcerer) + 3x20 (Constitution bonus times level) + 1x10 (Bonus for favored class barbarian) + 23 (Toughness) = 12 + 6.5*9 + 3.5*10 + 60 + 10 = 198
Equipment: (880,000 gp)
+5 vicious spell storing ghost touch icy burst greataxe 200,320 gp
ring of protection +5 50,000 gp
ring of wizardry IV 100,000 gp
belt of physical might (dexterity, constitution) +6 90,000 gp
headband of alluring charisma +6 36,000 gp
amulet of mighty fists +5 150,000 gp
cloak of resistance +5 25,000 gp
+5 chain shirt of heavy fortification 100,250 gp
120,430 gp
Sorcerer Spells: (15th caster level)
7th – ethereal jaunt, giant form I, greater teleport
6th – beast shape IV, greater dispel magic, summon monster VI, transformation
5th – interposing hand, prying eyes, telekinesis, wall of force, dismissal
4th – dimension door, elemental body I, greater invisibility, wall of fire, stoneskin
3rd – haste, keen edge, protection from energy, vampiric touch, rage
2nd – acid arrow, alter self, darkness, false life, scorching ray, bull’s strength
1st – enlarge person, expeditious retreat, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, cause fear
0 – acid splash, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mending, prestidigitation, ray of frost, resistance
Other Class Abilities:
Barbarian: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense +5, improved uncanny dodge, DR 3/-
Sorcerer: claws (1d8 magic + 1d6 fire), demon resistances (resist elec 10, +4 vs poison), strength of the abyss, added summonings
If I were going to attempt to build this character with 3.5 rules I would probably go with a single level of barbarian, six levels of sorcerer, and become an eldritch knight. At sixteenth level the base attack bonus would be +13 and the caster level would be 14. This is slightly higher than my barbarians +12 base attack bonus and caster level of 13. That would mean that the eldritch knight version would be slightly more powerful, except for the truckload of class abilities from barbarian and sorcerer that my version carries around.
At the moment I’m typing this that looks like a little too much. I’m not trying to create a variant more powerful than the existing prestige classes. It probably would be better if the effective level for getting class abilities were reduced by one with a minimum of the class level. I haven’t done this with any of the examples so that I could get this post finished. Either way I think this method produces something close to what you got using prestige classes. I think that it hopefully won’t need major adjustments to work in all cases and it should be pretty obvious if a dropping the power down a level wouldn’t help it this rule is really not a good idea.
Next is a non-spellcaster example. I’m not completely sure of how much is needed to fix this class combination or even if it needs to be fixed. There are very, very few prestige classes that combine non-spellcasting base classes for me to compare this to. I will probably do that next though and build a monk/rogue and compare that to a prestige class and see what comes out of that. Either way, here is the barbarian/rogue with me just going a little insane near the end of character creation.
Raneon human barbarian/rogue
3rd level character
Spoiler:
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Attack Bonus: +2
Base Saves: Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +0
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 3x2, rogue 7x1; total 13
Skill Ranks: Climb 2, Perception 3, Stealth 3, Survival 3, Swim 2
Base HP: 2d12 + 2 (barbarian) + 1d8 (rogue) + 3x3 (Con) + 6 (Toughness) = 40
Equipment: (3000 gp)
masterwork greatclub 305 gp
masterwork javelin 301 gp
+1 chain shirt 1250 gp
cloak of resistance +1 1000 gp
144 gp (potions, oils, and other mundane equipment)
barbarian 2/rogue 1
barbarian 2/rogue 2
Ability Scores: Str 17 (+3), Dex 13 (+1), Con 17 (+3), Int 7 (-2), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
hp 40
AC 16, flat-footed 15, touch 11
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Base Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 3x2, rogue 7x2; total 20
Skill Ranks: Climb 4, Perception 4, Stealth 4, Survival 4, Swim 4
Base HP: 2d12 + 2 (barbarian) + 2d8 (rogue) + 4x4 (Con) + 7 (Toughness) = 52
Equipment: (6000 gp)
masterwork greatclub 305 gp
masterwork javelin 301 gp
+1 chain shirt 1250 gp
amulet of natural armor +1 2000 gp
cloak of resistance +1 1000 gp
1144 gp (potions, oils, and other mundane equipment)
barbarian 2/rogue 2
barbarian 3/rogue 3
Ability Scores: Str 17 (+3), Dex 13 (+1), Con 18 (+4), Int 7 (-2), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
hp 52
AC 17, flat-footed 16, touch 11
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +1
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Attack Bonus: +17
Base Saves: Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +6
Number of Skill Ranks: barbarian 3x10, rogue 7x10; total 100
Skill Ranks: Climb 20, Perception 20, Stealth 20, Survival 20, Swim 20
Base HP: 10d12 + 10 (barbarian) + 10d8 (rogue) + 20x4 (Con) + 23 (Toughness) = 228
Equipment: (880000 gp)
+5 intelligent adamantine thundering shocking burst wounding heavy flail 239915 gp
+5 returning distance javelin 98301 gp
+5 heavy fortification mithral breastplate of greater slick and shadow 171700 gp
belt of physical perfection +6 144000 gp
amulet of natural armor +5 50000 gp
ring of protection +5 50000
cloak of resistance +5 25000 gp
manual of gainful exercise +2 55000 gp
headband of vast intelligence +2 (decipher script) 4,000 gp
42084 gp (potions, oils, and other mundane equipment)
Special abilities of the adamantine heavy flail (Ego 22)
Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 10
Speech (common, elven, dwarven, orcish), telepathy
120 ft. darkvision and hearing
7 ranks in lingustics (+13 lingustics, knows seven additional languages not known on the world)
major image 1/day
locate object 3/day
status effect, usable at will
barbarian 10/rogue 10
barbarian 15/rogue 15
Ability Scores: Str 26 (+8), Dex 19 (+4), Con 27 (+8), Int 9 (-1), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
hp 308
AC 34, flat-footed 30, touch 19
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +19, Will +13
Gets a few more rage points, rage powers, and rogue powers, fewer of any specific one if I had made this into a single classed character, but more overall. Gets greater rage and a few bonus sneak attack dice, but still doesn’t get the most powerful abilites of each class and misses out on mighty rage and the rogue 20th level ability along with another few sneak attack dice.
I think that I said most of what I wanted to say above, I have no idea how balanced this is, I have no idea how balance it was, so I’ll just move along for now and come back to this later.
So far I’ve only showed stats for characters with two classes, but this rule possibly should include characters with multiple base classes. This next character was the first character I built using my multi-class rule and it resulted in me immediately modifying the rule. This character used the combined level of all the other base classes divided by two to get the bonus for determining what class abilities he got. What came out seemed excessive in some of the cases (granting impressive powers from all the classes). To repeat, this next character was built using an older version of the rule, not the one I currently have listed. It is only shown for comparison and also to show how I got to this point. Also it is here for people to tell me if I was wrong if my judgement that the rule should be changed was wrong.
Also bard spells in the next set of stack blocks will have a “[]” following the name of the spell if that spell has no somatic components (so that it can be cast in full plate with no arcane failure chance).
Gileben gnome bard/cleric/fighter/rogue/paladin
Favored class (bard)
Cleric of Sarenrae (Domains: Glory and Good)
5th level character
Spoiler:
+1 Scimitar, Masterwork Composite Longbow (+2 Str), +1 Full plate, Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield, Belt of Giant Strength +2
765 gp (potions, ammunition, holy symbols, coin, healer’s kit, and other mundane equipment)
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 17
BASE SAVES Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +4
BASE ATTACK BONUS +2
Skill ranks bard 4, cleric 1, fighter 1, rogue 6, paladin 1, bardic knowledge 2
Total ranks 15
Perform (oratory) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 2 ranks, Heal 5 ranks
bard 1/cleric 1/fighter 1/rogue 1/paladin 1
Effective levels: bard 2/cleric 2/fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 2
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 15 (+2), Int 7 (-2), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 17 (+3)
+2 Scimitar, +1 Longbow (+2 Str), +2 Full plate, +1 Heavy Steel Shield, Belt of Giant Strength +2, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, 4,265 gp (potions, wands, scrolls, ammunition, holy symbols, coin, healer’s kit, and other mundane equipment)
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 18
BASE SAVES Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +5
BASE ATTACK BONUS +5
Skills bard 4, cleric 1, fighter 1, rogue 6, paladin 1x4, bardic knowledge 2, open minded 5
Total ranks 23
Perform (oratory) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 2 ranks, Heal 8 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
bard 1/cleric 1/fighter 1/rogue 1/paladin 4
Effective levels: bard 2/cleric 2/fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 6
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 15 (+2), Int 7 (-2), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 20 (+5)
Init +5
hp 73 (3d8 + 5d10 + 16 + 1 + 11)
+3 Scimitar, +1 Longbow (+2 Str), +3 Full plate, +2 Heavy Steel Shield, Belt of Giant Strength +2, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +2, amulet of natural armor +2, 3,265 gp (potions, wands, scrolls, ammunition, holy symbols, coin, healer’s kit, and other mundane equipment)
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 18
BASE SAVES Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +6
BASE ATTACK BONUS +7
Skills bard 4x2, cleric 1x2, fighter 1x2, rogue 6x2, paladin 1x2, bardic knowledge 4, open minded 5
Total ranks 35
Perform (oratory) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 4 ranks, Heal 10 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
bard 2/cleric 2/fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 2
Effective level: bard 4/cleric 4/fighter 4/rogue 4/paladin 4
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 15 (+2), Int 7 (-2), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 20 (+5)
Init +5
hp 88 (6d8 + 4d10 + 20 + 2 + 13)
AC 32, flat-footed 31, touch 14
Attacks: +3 scimitar melee +15 (1d4+8; 18-20/x2) (+15/+10 with full attack)
+1 composite (+2 Str) longbow ranged +10 (1d6+3; x3)
+5 ghost touch scimitar, +3 longbow (+2 Str), +5 full plate, +5 heavy steel shield of arrow deflection, belt of physical might (strength, constitution) +4, headband of alluring charisma +6, ring of protection +4, amulet of natural armor +4, 9,265 gp (potions, wands, scrolls, ammunition, holy symbols, coin, healer’s kit, and other mundane equipment)
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 14, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 18
BASE SAVES Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8
BASE ATTACK BONUS +13
Skills bard 4x2, cleric 1x2, fighter 1x2, rogue 6x2, paladin 1x8, bardic knowledge 4, open minded 5
Total ranks 41
Perform (oratory) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 4 ranks, Heal 16 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
bard 2/cleric 2/fighter 2/rogue 2/paladin 8
Effective level: bard 4/cleric 4/fighter 4/rogue 4/paladin 12
Str 18 (+4), Dex 12 (+1), Con 20 (+5), Int 7 (-2), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 24 (+7)
Init +5
hp 181 (6d8 + 10d10 + 80 + 2 + 19)
+5 ghost touch flaming burst holy scimitar, +3 longbow (+2 Str), +5 full plate of greater cold and fire resistance and invulnerability, +5 heavy steel shield of arrow deflection, belt of physical might (strength, constitution) +6, headband of alluring charisma +6, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5, pale green prism ioun stone, orange prism ioun stone, wings of flying, 75,265 gp (potions, wands, scrolls, ammunition, material components, holy symbols, coin, healer’s kit, and other mundane equipment)
BASE ABILITY SCORES Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 18
BASE SAVES Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +11
BASE ATTACK BONUS +17
Skills bard 4x4, cleric 1x4, fighter 1x4, rogue 6x4, paladin 1x4, bardic knowledge 8, open minded 5
Total ranks 65
Perform (oratory) 12 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 20 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 8 ranks, Heal 20 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
bard 4/cleric 4/fighter 4/rogue 4/paladin 4
Effective levels: bard 8/cleric 8/fighter 8/rogue 8/paladin 8
Str 21 (+5), Dex 12 (+1), Con 22 (+6), Int 7 (-2), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 24 (+7)
Init +5
hp 249 (12d8 + 8d10 + 120 + 4 + 23)
This character was a pain to build because of the need to reference five different classes and it had three spell lists. I think that I would still have had this problem without my rule, all it would have meant is that I would have had to pick a few less spells overall. At this point I also compared it to a base class combined with a single prestige class that produced similar abilities to the five-class combination. That is bard spells, bard song, sneak attack, divine spells, good base attack bonus, and various paladin abilities from a single base class with a single prestige class. So I compared this five classed character to a bard/blackguard (who gets all of these abilities) to help determine if it were too much. This version of the five-classed character had better abilities than the bard/blackguard in almost every way (and it was only slightly worse in the ways it was worse). That is how I determined that the multi-classing rule for multiple rules should be scaled back.
Another thing I thought about when making this character was what about class abilities that were shared by multiple classes and stacked. For example the channel energy, if there was a cleric/paladin using my rule, then at 20th level (cleric 10/paladin 10) that character would be able to channel positive energy as a 27th level cleric (15 from effective cleric level, and 12 from effective paladin level minus three). Thinking about this, it probably would be appropriate to cap abilities to your character level just so they don’t beyond what a single-classed character can do.
The next character did use the more current rule. It only has three classes, and it uses only the level of the highest class from among his two other base classes to determine to bonus to the effective class level instead of using them combined. As this is a combination of non-spellcasting classes I’m finding it hard to determine if this is more powerful than a single classed character (again, this is something I want to avoid).
Droken Blackhammer dwarf fighter/monk/rogue
6th level character
Spoiler:
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 7
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Base Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +3
Number of Skill Ranks: fighter 3x2, monk 5x2, rogue 9x2; total 34
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 4, Climb 4, Knowledge (engineering) 6, Knowledge (history) 6, Intimidate 1, Perception 4, Sense Motive 5, Swim 4
Base HP: 2d10+2 (fighter) + 4d8 (monk and rogue) + 6*4 (Con) + 9 (Toughness) = 68
Equipment: (16000 gp)
bracers of armor +2 4000 gp
ring of protection +1 2000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom +2 4000 gp
+1 throwing axe 2308 gp
+1 cloak of resistance 1000 gp
2692 gp (potions, oils, mundane equipment)
Fighter Abilities:
Bonus Feats: Power Attack, Toughness; Bravery +1, armor training +1 [no armor worn]
Monk Abilities:
AC bonus +0, flurry of blows -2, unarmed strikes 1d6, Bonus Feats: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist; evasion, fast movement +10, maneuver training, still mind
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 7
Base Attack Bonus: +10
Base Saves: Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +6
Number of Skill Ranks: fighter 3x4, monk 5x4, rogue 9x4; total 68
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 7, Climb 8, Knowledge (engineering) 12, Knowledge (history) 12, Intimidate 1, Perception 12, Sense Motive 8, Swim 8
Base HP: 4d10+4 (fighter) + 8d8 (monk and rogue) + 12*4 (Con) + 15 (Toughness) = 129
Equipment: (108000 gp)
bracers of armor +4 16000 gp
ring of protection +3 18000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom +4 16000 gp
belt of physical perfection +2 16000 gp
+1 returning throwing axe 8308 gp
amulet of mighty fists +2 24000 gp
cloak of resistance +2 4000 gp
5692 gp (potions, oils, mundane equipment)
Fighter Abilities:
Bonus Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike); Bravery +2, armor training +1 [no armor worn], weapon training +1 (monk weapons)
Monk Abilities:
AC bonus +1, flurry of blows -1, unarmed strikes 1d8, Bonus Feats: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Improved Disarm; evasion, fast movement +20, maneuver training, still mind, ki pool (magic, 9 points), slow fall 30 ft., high jump, purity of body
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 7
Base Attack Bonus: +14
Base Saves: Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +9
Number of Skill Ranks: fighter 3x6, monk 5x6, rogue 9x6; total 102
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 11, Climb 12, Knowledge (engineering) 18, Knowledge (history) 18, Intimidate 1, Perception 18, Sense Motive 12, Swim 12
Base HP: 6d10+6 (fighter) + 12d8 (monk and rogue) + 18*4 (Con) + 21 (Toughness) = 190
Equipment: (530000 gp)
bracers of armor +8 64000 gp
ring of protection +5 50000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom +6 36000 gp
belt of physical perfection +4 64000 gp
+4 seeking returning throwing axe of distance 98308 gp
amulet of mighty fists +5 150000 gp
cloak of resistance +5 25000 gp
monk’s robe 13000 gp
29692 gp (potions, oils, mundane equipment)
Monk Abilities:
AC bonus +2, flurry of blows +0, unarmed strikes 1d10, Bonus Feats: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Improved Disarm; evasion, fast movement +30, maneuver training, still mind, ki pool (magic, 12 points), slow fall 40 ft., high jump, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion
Base Math
Base Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 7
Base Attack Bonus: +16
Base Saves: Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +10
Number of Skill Ranks: fighter 3x6, monk 5x8, rogue 9x6; total 112
Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 12, Climb 13, Knowledge (engineering) 20, Knowledge (history) 20, Intimidate 1, Perception 20, Sense Motive 13, Swim 13
Base HP: 6d10+6 (fighter) + 14d8 (monk and rogue) + 20*4 (Con) + 23 (Toughness) = 209
Equipment: (880000 gp)
bracers of armor +8 64000 gp
ring of protection +5 50000 gp
headband of inspired wisdom +6 36000 gp
belt of physical perfection +6 144000 gp
+5 seeking returning axiomatic throwing axe of distance 200308 gp
amulet of mighty fists +5 150000 gp
cloak of resistance +5 25000 gp
monk’s robe 13000 gp
tome of understanding +5 137500 gp
60192 gp (potions, oils, mundane equipment)
Monk Abilities:
AC bonus +2, flurry of blows +0 (second extra attack), unarmed strikes 1d10, Bonus Feats: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Improved Disarm, Improved Critical (unarmed strike); evasion, fast movement +30, maneuver training, still mind, ki pool (magic, lawful, 15 points), slow fall 50 ft., high jump, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion, diamond body
Now that is all up there I’ll take what I’ve learned from this and try to produce a better rule from it. For determining your class abilities (not hit dice, base attack bonus, base saves, or skill points) you use that class’s level plus half of the level of the highest-level class from among your other base classes minus one, maximum is double the class’s level and minimum is the class’s level. If a ability ends up using a higher level (through it stacking with two classes) than your character level then cap it at character level.
I think my rule works reasonable well in a game that uses the multi-class prestige classes because the prestige class levels do not advance your base class abilites. With the –1 change it doesn’t effect most prestige classed characters much. The fighter 1/wizard 5/eldritch knight 10 would have one more fighter feat than the character not using my rule. The wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10 is the same as with the rule, but it gets a slight boost when taking that next wizard or cleric level. For the arcane trickster it is a little weirder, a wizard 5/rogue 2 under my rule can now qualify for the arcane trickster prestige class one level earlier (without doing something like wizard 5/rogue 1/assassin 1). The wizard 5/rogue 3/arcane trickster 10 on the other hand would now get uncanny dodge and a extra rogue talent as well as a bonus in both classes when he gains his next level (in either wizard or rogue).
Monstrous Races:
While pondering this idea I wondered if using this system with monstrous races. Monstrous races seem to have similar issues as standard multi-classing. Instead of getting a high level ability you end up getting lower level, and in most cases that lower level ability is going to be a lot weaker than the higher level one.
This operates on the same basic idea as the multi-classing system mentioned above. The only difference is that you don’t get any bonus levels for your monstrous class, only your base class’s abilities improve.
You create your monstrous PC as you normally would, taking their HD and LA into account. If the PC has no levels in a base class then there are no changes. However if they do have levels in a base class, then you use the multi-classing rules above and treat the number of monstrous Hit Dice as the level of one of the other base classes.
Another idea is to use the number of monstrous Hit Dice plus their Level Adjustment as the other base class level instead. This would allow most PC’s with templates to gain these benefits as well. Whether or not this is more balanced I’m not quite sure either way.
I am a bit tempted to stat these PCs in the depth like I did the other characters, but I wanted to get this idea onto the boards in some timely manner. So instead I just gave a simple breakdown for these PCs to get the most basic information for the effective class levels for just using HD and both HD and LA. I don’t think this will show much, but it should give some idea if this is radically off target.
The first is just a simple example using a wyrmling (chosen because the low ECL version is more likely to break the system) silver dragon with fighter levels.
Both systems add very little power to this PC. Early on it quickly advances through the lower fighter levels and it ends up granting a couple more bonus feats (and now a little more armor and weapon training).
I don't believe that skills should be lumped together. Its detrimental to roleplaying.
It is only detrimental to roleplaying if you let it be. If your character has spent his life in the mountains, then don't try to tumble everywhere. It is not the system's fault if you are unable to not do things that you don't want your character to do.
For the ranger that has never touched a blade, then don't use your proficiency with blades.
For the wizard that hasn't studied necromancy (and only necromancy), don't prepare and scribe necromancy spells.
Yes, and that is exactly what I hate. I hate the fact that you basically get 4 free skills for investing in only one skill.
But if it was seperated into five skills then almost no one would seriously invest in smell, taste, or feel. Those skills are not valuable at all without giving them exceptional abilities. Then I feel that it would be wasted space on a page as people would use it maybe once in a campaign.
I'm not saying learning how to smell something well mean you must see something well too. I'm just saying that combining the skills actually makes them worthwhile to take.
Seriously, is this skill necessary? The rules were flying were not that difficult to follow before. I think it adds add an unnecessary layer of complexity to the game to have this as a skill. Does anyone disagree with me?
Very doubtful the skill is necessary IMO. Where is the corresponding walk and run skill?
The same is true with a lot of other highly-valued abilities: Trapfinding and Disable Device, Intimidation and Bluff, Jump and Tumble. The design team for 3rd Edition split them into enough skills to allow "skill monkeys" to be better at them than other characters. (In this way, Zynete, the more highly-prized skills are more expensive.)
Yeah, I thought a little about that as I was posting, but I thought going on that tangent would have me working on the post for another half an hour.
But I think that it at some level, went from allowing skill monkeys to be better at them to making it so that is was pointless for anyone else to bother investing in them. I think that having them combined still leaves the skill monkeys in a better position so that they can actually be trained in doing several things rather than having to learn to do the same thing in multiple ways.
Ignoring most of the ridiculous statements made by the OP, I am fine with skill simplification.
It is not that I want anyone who can listen well be able to see, and taste things with great skill as well. They all should require separate training but, I think that if all skills were seperated into component parts (like most knowledges making you learn about many things to learn about one specific thing) those skills would be worth less and people would be less likely to to even take them.
I might feel differently if the skill system allowed for different costs for different skills (with more important skills costing more and less individually useful skills costing less). I think that system would support skills of different value better than 3rd edition's system. But I don't really care that much about it, I'm fine with skill simplification, I would rather have that than have skills with vastly different value.
The saying, "Jack of all trades, Master of None" exists for a reason, and while I too like multi-classing a great deal, I think there needs to be an incentive/reward for single-class characters. Otherwise, you very quickly move towards a class-less system, so you might as well just go totally point-buy for everything.
There are feats that accomplish your Caster Level goal, like Practiced Caster. There are similar feats for Druids and their Animal Companions and so forth, so for at least 4 levels of multi-classing (in these cases) the character is not entirely screwed. You could certainy create whatever feats are desired for other class abilities.
That's the trade-off. Better saves (as you stack base +2 bonuses) and cool, broader basic lower-level abilities traded for more powerful but focused higher-level ones.
FWIW,
Rez
One of my hopes for a multiclassing system would be not to penalize the single class characters, they should be slightly better. But I don't want them to be leaps and bounds beyond the others. I think that, for one, the high level abilities of the single class characters should be enough to keep people single classed (greater rage, 20th level wizard abilities, so on).
About the feats. That might be a good solution, but since they are not OGC we wouldn't be likely to see multiclassed characters in the adventures without them recreating those sort of feats. I would like to avoid a system that requires them. I think that we could spend about ten pages detailing different multiclassing feats and prestige classes without completely covering the system.
If we can get away from requiring these feats, I think that this space can be spent on other things that I want to see.
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True, that's the trade-off. But this rule doesn't change that. You still have broader basic lower-level abilities instead of the focused higher-level ones. The only difference is that the lower-level abilities with this system are slightly better.
When you have a 20th level character that can drop a 20th level minion in one blow, but be unable to kill a normal 1st level monster with one hit (because those have something like 30hp, and characters don't seem to do that much damage these days, except with special abilities), something is terribly wrong.
That is it!
There was something about minions that kept bothering me but I could not put my finger on it, but you have nailed it.
Indeed, instead of one 20th level minion I throw out a bunch of 1st level brutes. Sure their AC and attack bonus sucks, but it takes multiple hits to kill each of them instead of just one for the super-minion.
That is just not right.
I'm fine with that. It doesn't make sense in a realistic system I guess, but I like it for more of a storytelling perspective as well is what would make them contribute to the battle.
Here are two sets of stats I generated yesterday. I used both the old 32 point buy and the new 20 point buy to generate similar stats. The new system forced both sets I made to be slightly lower.
These stats do not include racial adjustments.
Not including racial adjustments assumes a human under 3.5, but if we assume a human under the Alpha rules you're stats are as follows (adding the +2):
Remake of old Barbarian/Sorcerer
Old 32: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 14
New 20: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 15 (added+2 to charisma)
Wizard who dumps everything but Dex, Con, and Int
Old 32: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8
New 20: Str 7, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 7, Cha 7 (added +2 to intelligence)
If you factor in the modifier things look a little better.
Previous post was eaten so I'll keep this short.
I wanted to compared the systems not the races and the systems. That first character was planned to be a half-orc and that would have made the new system look a bit more powerful, when it was mostly because of the half-orc change.
I also wanted to note that the rolled stat generation systems were not weakened. I'm not sure what this means, it was just another reason I didn't want to add races to it.
I remember seeing somewhere in the Alpha saying that currently that monsters gain the feats at the previous rate. It sounded as if that might change or at least that it wasn't going to be true forever.
I factored Deflect Arrows for the manticore and the centaurs. It took a while for the centaurs to kill him, but they could, and there wasn't anything Bobby could do anyway.
The one thing I notice is that you're still optimizing to even stats. That does indeed cost more, an extra one at each even stat starting at 14. With 32 point buy you have a lot more points going in, kinda forcing them up higher. 25 and 28 point buy are much closer in PF than 32 for that reason.
For the second one I think that it was just an artifact of me dropping three stats to minimum and raising one to maximum. With 32 point buy I guess I could have made the Dexterity and Constitution to 15, but I really didn't feel like the person creating a character full of dump stats would leave these two at odd numbers. With the new 20 point that was one of my only options to spend that last 15 points. I could have made them a 17 and a 12, but I was shooting for a more even combination.
The Barb/Sorc, yeah. The 32 point buy I think pushed me toward the even stats. The 20 point was better in this manner I think.
Thanks for the crunch, Zynete. It really puts things in perspective for me. Question though: Are those scores all listed prior to adding racial bonuses? If they are human, the old system would get no adjustment, but the new system gets to add a +2 to something. Maybe you already factored that in, I don't know.
As mentioned above the numbers, I didn't add the racial modifiers at that point (Although I built the first assuming that he would be a half-orc, and I really didn't think about what the second would be). I believe I added them up right.
The Barbarian/Sorcerer was an example character that wants multiple high stats and few stats that are low. I still needed Dex for AC with light armor, high Int because after the -2 Intelligence from Half-orc I still wanted more than a single skill point from sorcerer levels, the other stats needed pretty good scores so all I had to drop to minimum was Wisdom.
For the other character all I was trying for was a character that focused on one stat and only cared about a couple others.
Here are two sets of stats I generated yesterday. I used both the old 32 point buy and the new 20 point buy to generate similar stats. The new system forced both sets I made to be slightly lower.
These stats do not include racial adjustments.
Remake of old Barbarian/Sorcerer
Old 32: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 14
New 20: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 13
Wizard who dumps everything but Dex, Con, and Int
Old 32: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8
New 20: Str 7, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 7, Cha 7
Because it can stop the game in its tracks if for some reason the rest of the party is unable to assist (disabled somehow) and you have to fight an invisible monster and cannot do so.
How? As far as I can tell the only way I can get this from what you have said is by ignoring the first sentence of the feat's benefit.
However it seems to be a different classification system than the one I've seen from Frank. If I were to call this a bug, using Frank's system I would call it a class C bug.
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