Zombieneighbours's page

I'm curious, in what way do you think that the system is showing it's age? I personally think it's a much better, more streamlined, and more intuitive system than anything (for example) that is d20-based. In fact, I'd put the BRP system as one of my favorites.

Oh, no doubt about that.

However, CoC is still stuck with a binary, pass/fail paradigm, which the most initiative modern games are moving away from, the sanity system is, in my opinion, not really fit for purpose(it just doesn't work the way lovecraftian madness does). While investigation works 'fine' it does so only within the 'three clue rule' paradigm, which can even make DnD work as an investigative game.

While, I think there is room for improvement, that doesn't mean I think it is a bad game. I think Call of Cthulhu is all round a better game than nearly any other game out there.

Haven't seen any elves yet

Here's my starter rolls :

Male Elf

WS 2d10 + 20
BS 2d10 + 30
S 2d10 + 20
T 2d10 + 20
Ag 2d10 + 30 Using Sallya's mercy to bring this to 41
Int 2d10 + 20
Wp 2d10 + 20
Fel 2d10 +20

Attacks : 1
Wounds : 1d10
Fate Points : 1d10

Career 1d100 Kithband Warrior 1d100 Outlaw

Hmm.... some thinking to do on this..
Zombie, which would work best for your purposes ?
Oh just saw that Kithband warrior is restricted to woodland origin.
So I guess I'm an outlaw.

Gold 2d10

** spoiler omitted **

More background to follow, as well a character sheet.

Hey, it looks like you used the core books career system. Can you select from one of the following party roles, and I, or one of the other with the career's compendium will check the chart for you .

Academics generally have access to a number of the rarer skills, and most of the magic using professions are within this role. Perhaps most importantly, many academic professions are literate.

Commoners broad generalists with a range of social and trade skills. If you want your small but vicious dog, this is your one and only chance.

Criminal professions tend towards social and stealth skills, along with slightly more combat proficiency than commoners.

Ranger professions provide wilderness and spelunking skills, often with a touch of combat skill.

Warriors are the fighting men and woman of the empire, from town watchmen to pitfighters, these professions set you up for a fight.

I righty. I'm going to try a Human Academic (c'mon, priest of Ulric!)

WS 2d10 + 20
BS 2d10 + 20
S 2d10 + 20
T 2d10 + 20
Ag 2d10 + 20
Int 2d10 + 20
Wp 2d10 + 20
Fel 2d10 + 20
W 2d10 + 20
FP 2d10 + 20

Talent 1d100
Career 1d100 (Burgher), 1d100 (Apprentice Wizard)
Gold 2d10

Looks like I'll go with Apprentice Wizard. Not too bright a fellow, but strong!

Go for it Torillan, but do it with your eyes open. All magic is viewed with suspician in the empire. Membership of the collages will offer you some pretection in cities, but out in the wilds of the empire your wizardry might get the whole party burned as witches. Ofcause, the pay off for that is magic and witchsight, which are both very powerful tools.

Call of Cthulhu is in some ways unique. Few games as old as it have remained so unchanged, yet so popular. Sure it is starting to show it's age, but honestly it is such a good game that I'd be happy to play it when I am sixty, ans it is sixty one.
)

Going Dwarf so do I just run with the Core book or does the career compendium apply to them also?

Yes it does Bilbo.

100 = watchman
84 = soldier

As a dwarf, you won't need sigmar's Heir.

You sandwiched troll slayer with those rolls, alas, a glorious death to wash away your shame shall not be yours.

Right, I'm at home with my trusted books. Let's roll.

I'm going with a human and would like to play a ranger, depending on the rolls.

WS 2d10 + 20
BS 2d10 + 20
S 2d10 + 20
T 2d10 + 20
Ag 2d10 + 20
Int 2d10 + 20
Wp 2d10 + 20
Fel 2d10 + 20
W 1d10
FP 1d10

Talent 1d100 (Lighting reflexes)
Career 1d100 (Ranger: Hunter)
Gold 2d10

Well, that's pretty clear. Let's go for a hunter. I'll be using Sallya's mercy on my strength roll.
I still need to decide a few more things like talents/skill choices and come up with a background and the city/state I'm coming from.

So for the background, there's a second set of rolls: (let's go random all the way through)
** spoiler omitted **

Now that I've got all the numbers, I'll let that stew a little to come back with a background.

Oh a hocklander with a very high BS, nice, and appropreate. Doing the maths, you could have a BS of 49 at start of play, and 59 within a few sessions. That is pretty scary.

Hi every one. Just to let you know, I am aiming to get the campaign underway, starting monday.

Race: Human

WS 2d10+20
BS 2d10+20
S 2d10+20
T 2d10+20
Ag 2d10+20
Int 2d10+20 => i'd like to use shallaya's mercy on this bringing it to 31
Wp 2d10+20
Fel 2d10+20

Starting Wounds: 1d10
Starting Fate Points: 1d10

Talent 1d100 => night vision
Career 1d100, 1d100 => miner or noble. i had my heart set on entertainer but noble will work as well.
Gold 2d10

I'll be back with a backstory. How long do i have to finalize the character?

Hey Patrik,

One quick point. As we are using the career Compendium party role chart, your career rolls actually come out as Initiate, Farmer, Raconteur, hunter, or Mercenary.

Strictly you should select which role you want your character to fit with first, but since both your rolls would have resulted in the same out come for each of the roles, I am more than happy for you to select from between them, or opt for a re-roll, having selected a Party role.

This sounds fairly interesting, I play 40k, and I have looked into fantasy but I do not know the system at all. Would someone help me go over the system fine points or the general idea is it d20 etc?

Hey Jacetms87,

WFRP runs using a percentile based system. When you want to achieve something, you role a a percentile dice and must roll under or match the appropriate skill. So if you want to lift something heavy, you need to get equal too or less than your strength. If you want to hit some one in melee, you must roll less than or equal too your Weapon Skill.

Numerous factors modify such rolls, so if the GM considers the rock you want to life to be 'very difficult', that would be rolls with a -30%.

Skills also modify the ways attributes work. Basic skills such as Gossip and other things any one can have a crack at without specialist training, can always be rolls. If you do not have the skill however, you roll only half the attribute. Advanced skills such as secret languages or academic knowledge cannot be rolled at all, if you do not have the appropriate skill.

So how do you work out what your attributes are? Well that is based on your Race. At character creation, you roll 2D10, and add bonus to each attribute based upon your race. races also give you a small number of skills and talents(which are a little like feats, only infinitely more common, and specific.)

Race is only half your character, the other being you profession. Some people describe professions being like classes, but it isn't really accurate. professions are packages of advances, which are purchased one at a time. Such advances are things such as attribute boosts, new skills and new talents.

So as you can see it is fairly different from d20.

Second edition however has taken some aspects of D20into itself, such as defined actions, like move actions.

Dotting. Will get a full character up tonight or tomorrow. How many rolls do we get on the careers compendium? If I recall, you pick a category and roll three times in it?

Its two rolls, as per normal.

It already lets you narrow down your options considerably, so additional rolls mores into the territory of "i might as well just let you pick" ;), given that the weird character you sometimes roll are part of the charm of the system, I am loathed to move to far in that direction.

I haven't played Enemy Within before sadly. I have most recently fully completed Thousand Thrones with a RL group.

Well then, get working on a character then ;)

I take your point Novalord. Just to say I'm British and I far prefer heroic characters and campaigns to grim and gritty.

I prefer Superman to Batman too.

Fall, I thought we british gamers disowned you for your colonial gaming tendencies ;)

Zombieneighbours wrote:

scranford wrote:

Torillan wrote:

Quick question. Are careers only to be from the Core book, or can we use the Career Compendium as well?

Not a big deal, but it might help narrow my choices.

Thanks!

I second this question...and dot...

" as we will be using the Party Role and Provincial Features (also found in Sigmar's Heirs) optional rules from the careers compendium."

:D

I got that part, I was looking for a bit of clarification. Thanks!! ;-)

Yes, careers from the careers compendium are availible but must come up via the roll.

Some careers are just not going to make much sense however, so be prepared to defend what a Carcassonne Shepherd is doing making their way from the east to Nuln.

Torillan wrote:

Quick question. Are careers only to be from the Core book, or can we use the Career Compendium as well?

Not a big deal, but it might help narrow my choices.

Thanks!

I second this question...and dot...

" as we will be using the Party Role and Provincial Features (also found in Sigmar's Heirs) optional rules from the careers compendium."

:D

Pre-gen 1

Dieter Stein; the unusually large and bright peasant
Career: Peasant
Race: Human

WS 28
BS 30
S 39
T 40* (35)
Ag 33
Int 35
Wp 36 (31 + 5 from cool headed)
Fel 26
W 13 (12 + 1[hardy])
FP 2

Talents: Acute Hearing,Cool Headed, Hardy, Flee!

Skills: Animal Care, Swim, Charm Animal, Common Knowledge (the Empire), Concealment, Drive, Performance (Singer), Outdoors survival, Set Traps, Speak Language (Reikspiel), Silent Move, Trade (Farmer).

Special Rules: You gain a +10% bonus on Common Knowledge (the
Empire) Tests that deal with your home province of Wissenland.

Trappings: Quarter staff, Hatchet(hand weapon), Leather flask, common cloths, a dagger,sling bag containing a blanket, wooden tankard, and wooden cutlery set. A purse containing 11 Gold crowns in assorted coins.

Pre-gen 2

Alexa (Lucky) Kaufmann; The scandalously female student
Career: Student
Race: Human

WS 37
BS 26
S 31
T 25
Ag 33
Int 37 (32 + 5 from savvy)
Wp 34
Fel 43* (33 + 5 from suave)
W 13
FP 2

Talent: Ettiquette, Luck, Savvy, Suave, Super numerate,

Skills: Academic Knowledge (Mathematics), Academic Knowledge (demonology) Charm, Common Knowledge (the Empire), Gossip, Perception, Read/Write, Search, Speak Language (classical), Speak Language (Reikspiel) +10%,

Trappings: Rudulf Manzinner's Collectioned notes upon the numerological practices of araby(book), Detwiller'sWhat is questionable known of those beyond, Tilian Arming Sword (hand weapon), Writing Kit, Common Cloths, a dagger, sling bag containing a blanket, wooden tankard, and wooden cutlery set. A purse containing 5 Gold Crowns in assorted coins.

Special Rules: You gain a +10% bonus on Common Knowledge (the Empire)
Tests that deal with your home province of Reikland.

Discussion thread is up. Character creation guidelines can be found there.

Pre-gens are on there way.

Halfling Character Creation Template

WS 2d10 + 10 ⇒ (3, 5) + 10 = 18
BS 2d10 + 30 ⇒ (5, 3) + 30 = 38
S 2d10 + 10 ⇒ (3, 4) + 10 = 17
T 2d10 + 10 ⇒ (5, 9) + 10 = 24
Ag 2d10 + 30 ⇒ (4, 1) + 30 = 35
Int 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (7, 1) + 20 = 28
Wp 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (7, 2) + 20 = 29
Fel 2d10 + 30 ⇒ (4, 5) + 30 = 39
W 1d10 ⇒ 8
FP 1d10 ⇒ 8

Talent 1d100 ⇒ 20
Career 1d100 ⇒ 9
Gold 2d10 ⇒ (6, 10) = 16

Dwarf Character Creation Template

WS 2d10 + 30 ⇒ (7, 5) + 30 = 42
BS 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (10, 10) + 20 = 40
S 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (2, 2) + 20 = 24
T 2d10 + 30 ⇒ (2, 9) + 30 = 41
Ag 2d10 + 10 ⇒ (6, 4) + 10 = 20
Int 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (2, 8) + 20 = 30
Wp 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (7, 1) + 20 = 28
Fel 2d10 + 10 ⇒ (8, 9) + 10 = 27
W 1d10 ⇒ 3
FP 1d10 ⇒ 2

Career 1d100 ⇒ 62
Gold 2d10 ⇒ (2, 3) = 5

Elf Character Creation Template

WS 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (7, 5) + 20 = 32
BS 2d10 + 30 ⇒ (6, 10) + 30 = 46
S 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (10, 3) + 20 = 33
T 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (9, 6) + 20 = 35
Ag 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (3, 8) + 20 = 31
Int 2d10 + 30 ⇒ (7, 1) + 30 = 38
Wp 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (7, 9) + 20 = 36
Fel 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (2, 8) + 20 = 30
W 1d10 ⇒ 8
FP 1d10 ⇒ 6

Career 1d100 ⇒ 77
Gold 2d10 ⇒ (10, 6) = 16

Human Character Creation Template

WS 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (2, 9) + 20 = 31
BS 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (6, 4) + 20 = 30
S 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (5, 8) + 20 = 33
T 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (1, 7) + 20 = 28
Ag 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (1, 1) + 20 = 22
Int 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (1, 10) + 20 = 31
Wp 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (6, 3) + 20 = 29
Fel 2d10 + 20 ⇒ (1, 9) + 20 = 30
W 1d10 ⇒ 5
FP 1d10 ⇒ 7

Talent 1d100 ⇒ 23
Career 1d100 ⇒ 91
Gold 2d10 ⇒ (1, 7) = 8

Character Creation.

There are two options for characters. Please read it all, before getting stuck in.

1. Pre-gen

If your not familiar with with 2nd edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, don't want to go through character creation process, and/or do not have a copy of the core rulebook, then there are a number of Pre-gen characters included at the end of this post. They are skeleton characters, containing only game statistics, a name and one 'hook' such as a distinguishing feature, for you to build a full character around.

2. Do it your self

If your have the rules, and want make yourself a character, that I great. We will be using a slight variation on the core, as we will be using the Party Role and Provincial Features (also found in Sigmar's Heirs) optional rules from the careers compendium.

So if your playing a human, you will want to either select or roll (your choice) your province of origin, and apply the provinces features, rather than the core human racial features.

Once you have rolled your attributes, you'll want to think about Party Role. The options are Academics, Commoners, Criminals, Rangers and Warriors

Academics generally have access to a number of the rarer skills, and most of the magic using professions are within this role. Perhaps most importantly, many academic professions are literate.

Commoners broad generalists with a range of social and trade skills. If you want your small but vicious dog, this is your one and only chance.

Criminal professions tend towards social and stealth skills, along with slightly more combat proficiency than commoners.

Ranger professions provide wilderness and spelunking skills, often with a touch of combat skill.

Warriors are the fighting men and woman of the empire, from town watchmen to pitfighters, these professions set you up for a fight.

A quick word about races

The Warhammer world is not like DnD. Before making a non-human character, as your self, if you really want to do it.

Racism is the norm. even the Dwarves, humanities longest standing and greatest ally is utterly misunderstood by the common man, and sometimes even down right hated, halfling are seen as dirty, thieving subhuman creatures, while elves are seen as distant, arrogant and dangerous.

Moreover there is at least some bases in fact for humanities dislike of these races. The Dwarves are surly, proud and bear grudges personal for longer than most humans live, while as a race they have a genocidal hatred for other species, and so tide to their honour that it can drive them to suicidal death quests in search of glorious battle.

The High Elves are a dying race who see every one else as inferior, consider it their right and duty to interfere in the affairs of others, have been involved in a brutal civil war long than humanity has had a history.

Wood elves are genocidal, xenophobic, child kidnappers.

And halflings are near universally gluttons, and often involved in crime

There is rich role-playing opportunity in all of the races, but successfully playing a non-human in Warhammer is a challenging and possibly even harrowing experience. Be sure its what you want.

A quick word about optimisation

The iconic heroes of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay have never been powerful wizards, or worlds greatest swordsman. Rather it has been professions such as the Rat catcher with it's small but vicious dog that have always been at the heart of this game.

The truth is that competence as a hero is in many way anti-thematic in a campaign such as this. So where ever you stand on the debate about optimisation please trust me on this, and while creating your character, give more consideration to where an advance fits to make the character interesting, than where the advance fits to make the character 'better'.

Who gets to play

I will be taking a max of five player through this campaign. It is looking like their will be more interest than slots. As such I will be have to thin the herd at some point. Characters with strong back stories, and players who have not played TEW before are the most likely to make it into the campaign. Ofcause, with enough interest, I might be able to run a second campaign, but we better wait and see on that :D

This is the discussion thread for The Enemy Within and other tales of mud, blood and mutation.

Here you will find character creation guidelines, links media such as hand outs and music, as well as all sort of discussion about the campaign. enjoy, and please use responsibly.

Hey guys,

I got called into work while I was setting up this thread yesterday.

Firstly, yet Patrik, the game is going to be run here.

Secondly, a few house keeping details.

The enemy within in my experience runs best with a relatively small group, so there will be five PC slots if there is a lot of interest, but I would prefer to run with four PCs.

Due to the fact that this is The Enemy Within, I fully expect that some people who are interested will have played it before. I am fine with that. I ask that if you have, you let me know though, so that I can priorities those who have not had the chance.

I now that Bilbo Bang-Bang is also interested, and requested a place before this thread even went up.

I'll be posting the character creation options in the next few hours.

Lastly: Obviously, my spelling and grammar are not perfect. I am dyslexic, and it sucks. However, this post is as bad as it gets I promise, as I am bashing it out in a hurry because interest in the campaign has picked up rapidly.

I will be taking a great deal more time and care over posts from this point on, so hopefully it will be a minimal issue for you guys.

"And at the appointed time we shall rise from our secret
places and throw down the towns and cities of The Empire.
Our brethren shall pour forth from the forests to slay
and burn. Chaos will cover the land and we, the chosen
servants, shall be exalted in HIS eyes

Hail to Tzeentch, Changer of the Ways
- Njawrrthakh 'Lzimbarr Tzeentch."

Excerpt from The Book of transmutation

Welcome to the recruitment thread for my run through of The Enemy Within campaign.

One of the greatest campaigns of all time(it is so good that even the french like it! Casus Belli Magazine having voted it the best campaign ever). The Enemy Within is a richly written and entertaining journey across the Old World setting of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It mixes dark humour, horror, intrigue, investigation and bloody combat to produce a story that has something for every one.

Originally written for the first edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and in a setting that has changed a great deal over the years, I will be running a version convert for second edition and with some updated setting elements. I have also included a number of excellent first and second edition adventures to muddy the waters, and to provide interesting red hearing and side treks. However, the spirit of the original is alive and kicking.

A word about books:
While it will not be necessary to own any of the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay books to take part, I would advise getting at least a PDF of the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Edition Core Rulebook.

I also heartily recommend Sigmar's Heirs, if you wish to learn a little more about The Empire.

Sign Up
Sign up in this thread if your interested in playing.

Le Fabuleux Destin d'Amélie Poulain is one of my top five films. I watched it when I came out, and have watched it about twice a year since.

It is a mystery to me how it is there are adults that have not yet seen it. :D

Oh, and how many people are having an orgasm right now?

Does strike to stun still have a massive hate-on for 3e?

I have a problem with non-human races in general. It's been my experience that most players aren't looking at the cultural aspects and roleplaying possibilities of a race, they're looking at the stat bonuses and special abilities.

The question I always ask is: if this race had exactly the same bonuses as a human (i.e., none), would you want to run it?

The answer is almost invariably, "No".

If running cat-folk fulfills some roleplaying joy for you, great. I'd welcome the character into my game, welcome the opportunity to play with the cultural interaction. But I'm stingy with bonuses. You have to convince me your character really needs that +2 to Dex or the ability to detect invisible creatures, or that extra bite attack.

Strip away all the special abilities and bonuses of the race and look at it fresh. If the cultural aspects of the character aren't enough for you, then you shouldn't be playing the race, anyway.

Depends on the setting.

Golarion races are mostly dull in my opinion. I might play an elf, but only a forsaken(?) i.e. one who has grown up with humans. Living as a child as everyone you know grows old around you, that has some roleplaying teeth.

But WFRP, by contrast.

Wood elves: Xenophobic, child kidnapping, eco-terrorists engaged in social engineering on a national scale? Yes please.

High elves: Tragic members of a dyinmg race fending of their dark kin, in a last days of a civil war fought over thousands of years, far from their mist shrouded subcontinent home, fighting along side rough savages for a future they will not see? Yeah, thats got some legs on it.

Dwarfs: Insular, grudge bearing, hateful creatures, so bound by their history and their honour, they are doomed to bring about their own existinction, as they refuse to give up their past glory, or ask for the aid of the younger races. Sure thats cool, but definately if I get to play a trollslayer.

Aretas wrote:

PROP 8 results

Votes Percentage

Yes 7,001,084 52.24%
No 6,401,482 47.76%

Valid votes 13,402,566 97.52%
Invalid or blank votes 340,611 2.48%
Total votes 13,743,177 100.00%
Voter turnout 79.42%
Electorate 17,304,428

The population of California 37,691,912

Just b/c I agree to civil unions that does not mean the constitution can be used to change the definition of Marriage, a Sacrament in the Christian Church. Its a Sacrament not a right to get Married.

What does a legal decision by the state of California have to do with the rites of "the Christian Church" (as though such a thing exists)? Ironically, many Christian churches don't even use the word "sacrament" at all.

You can post voter percentages all you want. It doesn't matter one bit. The people do not get to vote on rights. That's why they're called rights. People can't team up to take them away from you.

Please read up on tyranny of the majority. And please stop trying to shove your religious beliefs down others' throats by using them to justify the establishment of laws. You don't get to do that. We get that you love the Bible and everything in it. Your love of the Bible DOES NOT trump the rights of others.

Quote:

Saying most people who are for Prop 8 are hateful and bigoted is just wrong. It creates animosity for those you name call.

Good.

Supporting Proposition 8 is hateful and bigoted, or shamefully (and likely arrogantly) ignorant. Either way, the people who support(ed) it are poor citizens, and even worse Christians. Speaking as a Christian myself, please stop giving us a bad name. It's getting to the point where I'm ashamed to label myself that because it means I'm somehow associated with Christians like you.

It's times like this where I begin to understand how religious wars were fought. Strong enough religious belief precludes mutual understanding. Where...

Scott, I just want to take this opportunity to say, "hell yeah". Please, provide paypal details so I can give you money to buy your self a beer, from me. It's nice to pleasantly surprised by a Christian.

2d Ed WFRP is amongst my favourite games of all times.

If there was interest, I might consider running 'The Enemy Within', as I am in the process of getting ready to run it anyway.

It would need at least three players however.

Zombieneighbours wrote:

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

The black raven wrote:

Isn't the Batman quite yummy with all his muscles bulging under his skin-tight costume ?

What do you mean, he cannot be a sexual object to be consumed ?

False equivalence.

If Batman traipsed around in nothing but speedos and a cape, and offered his sexualality as his prime defining character trait I don't think he would be nearly as popular. You can't compare characters who are incidentally attractive (Spider-Man, Batman, Suoerman - all fully clothed, none of whom are defined by sex) with female characters of the same genre: Spider-Woman who's superpower is literally "super attraction date rape smell", Batwoman who is primarily identified as "the lesbian one" and Supergirl and Powergirl (Bare Midriff and Cleavage Woman respectively).

Any attraction to Batman is because he's a figure of power. Not sexuality.

<tongue in cheek>Also as an aloof authority figure he reminds girls and gays of their fathers</tongue in cheek>

But they are all just bad characters. Their feminity is used as crutch

By contrast you have actual characters, like Harley Quinn, Aleph, Miranda Zero, Ragged Robin, and Death, all of whom I can safely say I find more attractive than your examples, and all of whom are memorable in their own right.

But none of your examples, except for Harley, are really the same genre. And she's a villain.

If you're just talking comics, then there are plenty of examples of strong non-sexually focused female characters. It's just that most of them are in small alternative independent comics.
Far far fewer in mainstream superheroes. Not that some of them aren't good interesting characters in their own right, but the T&A is too often lurking.

Sandman is one of the biggest selling comics in history, over 10 million copys of the graphic novels sold. If I go to any comic shop in the uk, I'll find ten people who've read sandman before i find two who read spiderwoman. I haven't even ever seen Powergirl or supergirl on a shelf here in the UK, and I think I have seen spider-girl a grand total of once. Yet most comic shops, will have Death: The High Cost of Living (1993), and Death: The Time of Your Life (1996), as do quiet a few larger bookshops.

Hell, i've been reading comics since I was about 14, and this thread was the first time I'd ever heard of powergirl.

The black raven wrote:

Isn't the Batman quite yummy with all his muscles bulging under his skin-tight costume ?

What do you mean, he cannot be a sexual object to be consumed ?

False equivalence.

If Batman traipsed around in nothing but speedos and a cape, and offered his sexualality as his prime defining character trait I don't think he would be nearly as popular. You can't compare characters who are incidentally attractive (Spider-Man, Batman, Suoerman - all fully clothed, none of whom are defined by sex) with female characters of the same genre: Spider-Woman who's superpower is literally "super attraction date rape smell", Batwoman who is primarily identified as "the lesbian one" and Supergirl and Powergirl (Bare Midriff and Cleavage Woman respectively).

Any attraction to Batman is because he's a figure of power. Not sexuality.

<tongue in cheek>Also as an aloof authority figure he reminds girls and gays of their fathers</tongue in cheek>

But they are all just bad characters. Their feminity is used as crutch

By contrast you have actual characters, like Harley Quinn, Aleph, Miranda Zero, Ragged Robin, and Death, all of whom I can safely say I find more attractive than your examples, and all of whom are memorable in their own right.

Harley might be sexy, but its the dark sense of humour, and the subtext of spouse abuse that makes her an interesting character.

Aleph, multi-tasking hub of the frequency, hacker and consummate member of the web generation. Sure that punky looking hair is cute, but frankly I care more about her blowing out the brains of intruders, or organising a information from disparate researchers all across the world to help prevent a memetic plague than I do her wrack.

Miranda might look hot in that suit, but who gives a s+#!, shes resisting torture, kicking arse and personally saving the lives of the heads of major intelligence agencies.

Ragged Robin, yes, I can see her legs and what little there is of that outfit, but frankly she is a time-travelling psychic, trained by the invisible collage to save the world, why do I care again?

Death, probably my biggest crush of any fictional character ever...and i'm still infinitely more interested by her fascination with use mortals, her family strife , her quirky way with word, and the way she occationally lives a day as a mortal, just so she can understand use a bit better.

But your not really comparing like for like. Batman is pretty much the biggest male name in comics, with only wolverine, spiderman and superman giving him a real run for the money, while spider girl is....well honestly a z list superhero. Honestly, the best, most loved female comic characters are often far more interesting than the most loved male comic book characters, though certainly they are rarely as popular.

Heya Witchwolf,

I am from down essex way.

The answer depends entirely on the ideas for new classes.

If they can surprise me with something original that fills a need in the lineup for character types, then absolutely. I do not currently believe that's possible, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

The Knave

mechanical niche: Scene editing/Probablity Manipulation
Concept niche: the divine fool.

The see's concepts such as proprity, decency and moderation, for the lies they are. Tools of those who would enslave us use to keep us trapped. The knave abandons such dull paths, burying themselves in excess to gain ecstatic revelation, and mystic power. They take causality, chance and fate by the unmentionables and lead the world a merry dance.

Example of a knave in combat:

The group rolls initiative and look over the battle map, the knave seeing he hasn't rolled very well chuckles and has himself a re-roll. Now on of the first to act, he uses a twist of fate to delay the arrivel to the battle of one of the the groups opponents, thanks to them having been caught short in the minutes before the characters arrive. The combat commences and the knave is caught between two flanking opponents, and with another twist of fate and martial skill, the knave throws himself clear as the thugs lunge for him, stabbing one another instead...

Is is 'needed', probably not, but I am not sure you 'need' the vast majority of the classes in the game. would it be hellafun to play? HELLL YESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't disagree Freehold, and don't think anyone was suggesting going on an educate-the-poor-illiterate-masses-soapbox-rant (well, i wasn't at least). Your approach seems a sane way to deal.

My issue with the rebuttal you linked, assuming you meant Shinta's, is that he said he played tons of games where the female characters weren't portrayed badly and then went on to name seven and a preview for another. That isn't even double digits, much less a ton.

That's the cultural bias (or whatever you want to call it) that I try to look out for in myself: that a list of seven or eight decent portrayals of a minority among the tide of stereotypical ones out there means that the industry doesn't have room for improvement.

Let me add a few more:

Beyond good and evil(for jade), longest journey(April Ryan), baldur's gate(various), baldur's gate two(various), half life two(Alex Vance), portal 1 & 2 (chell), the monkey island games.

No list could possible be exhaustive.

Ofcause the industry could do a lot more, but there are some great female characters out there.

pres man wrote:

Except in that case you shouldn't be teaching "ethnic studies", you should be teaching a more complete history

I'd agree 100%, but if the curriculum's following the textbooks, which are modeled after Texas' (hell, even Thomas Jefferson got removed because he wasn't Christian enough for them), then the history being taught is a long way from being complete unless you add a bunch of supplements. Ideally, we'd bulldoze the curriculum and start over, making sure it's more or less complete to begin with (and some states have done that -- this is interesting reading -- Arizona gets a "C").

Which to me poses the simple question. Why on earth do you not set out your school curriculum at the national level, rather than letting texas basically set the standards because of it's book buying powers.

They even banned Shakespeare. Anything that discusses oppression, racism or culturalism as a central theme. Talk about pots and kettles!

It sounded like they only banned the tempest, but not the merchant of venice or The Tragedy of Othello, the Moor of Venice, which just seems weird. I mean, do they just not know their shakespeare or something?

If only I could run a Spice and Wolf campaign, with actual working economic rules... :)

Yay!! Holo is awesome.

Not exactly in the mood for DnD, but for Exalted

Princess Mononoke

Detective Dee and the phantom flame

Croaching tiger, hidden dragon.

House of flying daggers

Xam'ed(series)

Ranma 1/2

Actually there are good reasons to keep buying 4e products. First off, 4e is still an interesting and fun game. Now that it it coming to an end, I will probably look to pick up some of the interesting products I missed. There are also a lot of 4e products such as monsters vault which while primerally 4e products, have a fair amount of usefullness for other roleplaying games.

The AP books brought me into pathfinder, and 3.5 as well to a lesser extent. Without them I'd have very little reason to stick with pathfinder. I mean, white wold finally seem to be producing product that might interest me again.

golem101 wrote:

jemstone wrote:

golem101 wrote:

Fuzion works mighty fine.

I love you so much right now, and I don't even know you.

I have the VOTOMs RPG and the Artesia RPG books, both based on the Fuzion system (the latter heavily customized), and I love them dearly.

As someone who playtested Fuzion, and got to watch the RTG guys pulling all nighters on VOTOMS, I have to thank you. So, thank you.

Sadly I was never able to grab a copy of Artesia, which is a damned shame, considering how much I love that story.

Find a copy, it is such an amazing book you will never regret it.

thejeff wrote:

All true, I suppose.

It's also a huge derail from the original point. We're not really talking about the moral standards of a bronze age society. We're talking about the "praise-worthy, morally-superior, universal and time-tested general awesomeness we are supposed to get out of these OT stories?"

"Praise worthy"? You mean like when Solomon asks for wisdom instead of riches? Or when Samson is brought down to his knees only to rise again?

Or when Moses returns to free his people after having fled into the wilderness?
I find these stories about character and heroism quite praise worthy (both their flaws and their triumphs).

Or Odin making personal sacrifice for knowledge and power, or Ariadne's punishment for hubris, or Prospero breaking his staff.

Fiction is where humanity has talked about what it is to be human. The Bible as a whole, being one very large piece of oral history and collection of myth cycles, contains a great deal of fiction. Is it any wonder that it should there for reflect some elements of the human condition?

What it clearly does not do, is offer a guide to moral behaviour. The morality it contains is that of bigoted, ignorant bronze and iron age tribes.

Lets not try to claim that it is somehow more insightful than other similar works.

Zombieneighbours wrote:

I cannot believe that Storyteller didn't get mentioned before now ;)

well he said he would rather the game not use all of one kind of dice ( d6's or d10's)

Meh, t'is a silly request ;)

I cannot believe that Storyteller didn't get mentioned before now ;)

Now you can say you don't like me personally and you just don't think I tackled the issue properly, but that's hardly fair. Everything I said above I've said in more detail and has an impact on the discussion of the Bible and slavery. The facts are that slavery as we understand it is NOTHING like slavery in the Bible.

You mean that it isn't the ownership of one human being by another, in which the 'owned human' performs services, sexual acts or labour for the owner.

You see 'slavery as we understand it' differs from person to person. Having had to study the basics or roman culture at school, classical models of slavery are not new to me. Ancient hebrew slavery is much more like roman slavery, than that of the triangle trade, certainly. It is arguably less bad than triangle trade slavery too.

But it is still a vile practice.

It still includes ownership of other humans (taken either by force, sold into slavery or those who have indentured themselves), it provides rights for the owner to do violence to said property, it allows for rape of slaves taken as concubines or wives.

It is still a terrible and immoral practice. One that is sanctioned by Yahwah.

So God tells them to treat people well, better than anyone treated their slaves, and gives established rules by which family groups may be grown, captives may earn freedom, etc. There's a wealth of information about the vast differences between slavery as you narrowly define it, and slavery described in the Bible. I will remind you that in the very same chapter about slavery that fans of the Skeptics Eisogetic Approach to Scripture Without Knowing Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek make reference to, there is a prohibition against []bslavery as we know it: seizing people against their will and selling or buying them as slaves is punishable by death.[/b]

Citation please. I'd almost be willing to put money on the fact that it is a corner case about the treatment of other Hebrews.

But it's pretty clear that gods big book of how to be moral is keen on taking slaves in general.

"10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

(Deuteronomy 20:10-16)

What with the raiding for sex slaves.

"So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, “With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,” they said, “so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can’t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: ‘Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.’ 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”

20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’”

23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

24 At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance."

(Judges 21:10-24)

I can go on, but frankly there is only so much rape, forced marriage and sex slavery I can bare to read about at this time in the morning.

Shame on you for trying to defend this ghastly stuff, seriously, shame on you.

The Bible does support slavery, but it does not support chattle slavery. The Bible gave very strict standards of behavior towards slaves which required them to be treated well.

Does that mean that I'm supporting slavery? I'm certainly not supporting it in our day and age, but economies and technologies change. Would it have been better for these slaves to be free men? I think that's an interesting question. In the US, we put a lot of emphasis on freedom, but is that better, in an objective sense, than slowly dying of hunger and oppression? I don't think everyone would prefer a life of starvation to a life of slavery.

Yeah, totally, the bible is amazing. I mean it doesn't ever say that it's okay to make a slave choose between a life time of further servitude and his wife and children, does it...

Oh opse, yep, sorry, my mistake, it does.

"4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life."
(Exodus 21)

B-b-b-b-ut...I like cheerleaders!

Religion itself is not the desirable end. Religion is what happens when imperfect people apply themselves to faith imperfectly.

Religion may have been used to advocate slavery by people who twisted it, but Biblical Christianity does not. Have we not talked about this before. It's a great first step to disabusing you of preconceptions about faith.

Hardly, the bible is replete with examples of religious law and command from the greatest profits of Judaism and christianity with regards to slave ownership.

Moses himself brings back laws from his meeting with 'god', which deal with this subject. In fact they are so important that after the ten commandment, and the rules for how to make god an alter, the fact that you cannot keep a Hebrew as a servant for more than six years(Exodus 21:2). The word servant in the bible mean slave, we know this because repeatedly, the bible discusses the purchase, sale and ownership of servants. see statements such as

-"If thou buy a Hebrew servant...."(Exodus 21:2-6)

-"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant...."(Exodus 21:7)

God doesn't just hand down laws, or allow them to be made in his name by his most powerful profits, he actively provides support to the Israelites in battles where they take sex slaves.

The bible, even in the new testament, never explicitly bans slavery.

I mean, if Yahwah can find space for "I am the lord your god, and you shall have no other god before me", he could have found space for "mmm, depriving others of their freedom and keeping them as slaves in pretty s%@!ty guys, would you mind not doing that? Especially the sex slavery, i mean that's especially nasty." or just 'Thou shall not keep slaves or engage in slavery" But mmm, I guess those graven icons are just to dangerous to be replaced by a decent moral idea like that.

Some ideas here are not working at all!

Very powerful (crafted) items should take "weeks or even months" to complete:
No, just no. What you must see is that time is extremely relative in todays MMOs. What takes a "normal" players weeks or months may be completed by the 24/7 players within a few days. Now think of producing a great number of these items and the gap widens even more.

Also this is almost impossible to balance. Say mechanics would prevent anyone from gaining one best sword in a short amount of time by timers limiting the time you are allowed to craft each day (cheesy in itself). So either this sword is considered must have and then everyone would whine how much PFO is a casual unfriendly game or it is considered a waste of time and everyone just gets the next best thing.

Third introducing a vast amount of repetitive action to be required to produce a very sought after item will be oil in the fire of the "secondary market" and thus invite heavy botting.

So severely limiting the amount of the best items is not doing as good as simply NOT HAVING best in slot items.

Mmm...not really.

First off, you could set hard time constraints. I.E. it takes x hours to create component y. Component y will be made after x hours, regardless of being logged in or not.

Provided you do not include a queue system, the 24/7 players might get a few hours worth of advantage over a more casual player, but there will still be a minimum time limit, which could be, for very powerful items, measured in days.

If your willing to shell out some serious money, WFRP 3e is a very interesting and different game.

Unlike most games, dice rolls can actually tell you about not only the outcome of an attack or challange, but the story of the attack or challange

It is possible to roll the dice on an attack and find that

1. you charge forwards and strike a light blow injuring the goblin.

2. you charge forwards and drive your sword into the goblin, slaying it instantly, only to find your sword is lodged in the monster. You wrestle to free your blade as its companions attack.

3. as you charge you slip in the mud, falling prone, screaming in panic you scrabble back away from chittering goblin. It ponces, a rusty dagger in hand, and you raise your blade to defend yourself. In a momment of mad luck, the goblin throws itself onto the blade, killing itself.

Because you use a dice pool, with numerous types of dice, and the results of the dice are not numbers, but effects, a roll of a dice pool can result in many different outcomes, from having your next action slowed, to being injured or tired in your attemp, to scoring critical hits, or gaining additional effects on your attack, and you can achieve several different effect at the same time. Say scoring a critical hit, and pulling a muscle at the same time.

And all of this information is conveyed very quickly by the dice, because rather than numbers, they use images, which tell you at a glance what happened. It takes a bit of time to begin with, but once you have practice, the system can be very quick, and interesting.

That said, there are some elements of it I really dislike as well. The falling damage rules make little to no sense for instance, and the rule book is terrible organised and not very well written, even if the system does have huge potential.