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eakratz wrote:
It's not useless, the bleed just happens on their turn each round. It's an ongoing effect.

I say it's useless cause you get 1d6 with the last feat of the tree, and 2d6 with the first.

But hey, I can live with that. I'm just confused about the wording on most of the bleeding rules, feats, abilities and such.


Blueluck wrote:
Ah, I see what you're getting at. Unfortunately, bleed damage doesn't happen both when it's inflicted and at the beginning of each turn. It only happens at the beginning of each turn.

AAaaaahhh... you are sure about that!? So, the Boar Shred is nigh useless? Do we have some reference to this please!?

Thanks mate!


I understand that it does not stack, but then we come back to some weird stuff. Like the Boar Shred Style feat. It states that at the beggining of each round the guy u hit takes 1d6 damage. But the fist feat of the tree deals 2d6... weird, right?

So, what I think is, feats and abilities that deal bleed damage with each hit, would deal said damage with each hit, but when it comes to the bleeding effect, it would not stack... am I crazy here?


I do undestand that bleeding EFFECT will only be 1d4. But am I correct on the other assumption?


I'm not convinced in how Bleed works yet. Granted it does not stack when the round begins, but how about when you are inflicting it?

Belier's bite says it deals +1d4 damage with each unnarmed strike, so, if I have 3 of those, do I deal the +1D4 each time I hit?


And there are effects like belier's bite, that imply that each hit deal 1d4 extra bleed damage.
It's confusing to say the least.


Yeah, I know full well who wrote them, that doesn't make it any better.
Paizo folks eveolved A LOT since then, and now they are more cooperative then they were before.
Meaning that they don't work like employees, now they all work like it's their company, and they want to make the best of it, not only for money, but for their customers. And that's why I love paizo so much.

Filler books is never a good idea, no matter how good the writer is, the theme simply does not help. And that's what happened with said books.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Sorry didn't mean to seem like I was accusing you of such -- just pointing out where people had made the jump before.

No need for apologies mate, didn't get ofended. It's a problem of mine really, having read a LOT of rules from a LOT of diferent games, I tend to mix some of those on ocasion.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Xum wrote:

Humm, funny. I was pretty sure that sneak attack was only aplicable IF the normal damage entered.

That's how it is in other incarnations of the game at least. I can't find any rules about that here, however.
That's because that was never the rule -- people completely misinterpreted what the DR entry says to try and support such a position before, but it explicitly states that it prevents things if it prevents all damage -- since sneak attack is damage it isn't prevented.

I know that such rule exists in Conan. And I agree with it, but, if such rule does not exist in the book, there is no point arguing.


Humm, funny. I was pretty sure that sneak attack was only aplicable IF the normal damage entered.
That's how it is in other incarnations of the game at least. I can't find any rules about that here, however.


For me and my groupS, it's because it's a natural development over 3.5.
When we had to change 3.5 so much to become playable and stoped enjoying it, pathfinder came along and conquered us.

Golarion is one of the best Settings I've ever seen, I would dare to say that they will become greater and better then Forgotten Realms and Birthright even.

The rules are easy enough, options are great and feels less "cheaty" then 3.5. Specially when you buy books, cause they all make sense, not that Frostbite, Sandwhatever, Shipcrap that 3.5 started selling just and simply for bucks.

They are a great company, and they work hard.

The only problem I see is that rules bloat is starting to happen and a lot of things that come out today seem like a patch for poorly writen rules(Bestial Climber and derivates, Raging Vitality, among others)

But, I understand that to "Fix" those problems it would be necessary a second edition of Pathfinder, and they are not yet ready for that.
But in the back of my mind, I can feel that they are taking notes about those discrepancies and preparing for the inevitable day that Second Edition comes, and to be honest, I can't wait for it.

Second Edition Pathfinder will, FOR SURE, be the best roleplaying game ever writen, I have no doubt in my heart about that.


Golden-Esque wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
I agree with Stringburka. With the later classes, the other stats are combat stats, you can get Cha, and Int to damage with some classes. I've yet to see Wis and Con add to damage, but they probably do, Wis is probably an inquisitor thing, and Con might be a monk thing.
For Inquisitors, Wisdom = rounds of Bane each day, which is the primary source of their DPR. No class in the game has anything that adds Con to damage, but then again, Con determines your hit points, and no one wants to die a painful death, so it will always be somewhat desirable.

Barbarians do. Raging Brutality, and it is indeed, brutal.


Gotta say, that just feels wrong.
I think it's the first time there is no other rounds, and to be honest we didn't do much. We just said what was on everyone's face for the most part and unfortunatelly there will be no fine tunning cause of it...
I hope Paizo reconsiders...


Dragon78 wrote:
They said there isn't going to be a round two.

Where did they said that? I've been looking for any signs of it, nothing.


Dudes, the Drow Noble doesn't change CR, aasimar and tiefling don't either.


ShadowcatX wrote:
Xum wrote:

For one? They have much more important things to do.

If not, there may be a limitation by the tournament rules.

The virtually limitless number of outsiders all have more important things to do than win an artifact? So you're relying on DM Fiat not to put anything more powerful than the pcs in the tournament despite the fact that the planes are full of them?

Quote:
And I like not knowing anything about the Lady.

Here, I agree. I was point out why people liked her. She's a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

That said, IIRC she does actually enteract with the pcs in the adventure Die Vecna Die! More than usual at least. (But its a horrible adventure, and not planescape specific.)

Well, she "interacts" in the torment novels too. If that "look" counts.

I think there SHOULD be things more powerful then the PCs, but Balors, Pit Fiends and Solars may be too much.

Besides, to be honest, even a "level apropriate" outsider will pound them to dust if no magic itens are alowed.


Any idea when Round 2 is coming?


ShadowcatX wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Xum wrote:
PLEASE don't use the Lady, she is too cool to interact.
Never got the love for the Lady of Pain. A character that has absoulutely no interaction with anything isn't a character. She's pointless and stupid.

She's a symbol more than anything, a force that no one can understand or control, a power that even the gods have to fear. Who is she? What is she? Why is she? From whence does she come? How did she grow so powerful without anyone, even the gods, knowing anything about her? Why did she slay Aoskar and why ban his worship?

And I never said 11th level characters weren't powerful, don't misquote me or put words into my mouth. They certainly are. However, they're not, normally, the most powerful people from their own world. The planes, however, gets the most powerful from every world.

What are 11th level characters going to do when they face, 1:1 a balor? Or a solar? And there are legions of those in the planes. Why wouldn't one of those, or thousands of those, enter the tournament?

For one? They have much more important things to do.

If not, there may be a limitation by the tournament rules.

And I like not knowing anything about the Lady.


If you are going with Planescape campign setting. You could go with outlands, Neutral ground.

Sigil is not a bad idea, there is an Arena there, pretty big one.

Ysgard is not a bad idea, but only the worthy would return the next day, and it would be cool if your players didn't know that and saw people get butchered on the first rounds. Spellcasters would not return, unless they did 'mano a mano' combat with their spellcasting.

What Shadowcatx said is untrue. 11th level characters are VERY powerful, specialy in second edition days, when planescape was used.

The Lady of Pain is awesome in her own right. There are several stories about her, and that's the cool part. She is a Godess, a mistery and the power behind the city of doors, there is nothing stupid about her. Somethings are better left for imagination then described in a book, something AD&D did masterfuly.


Brambleman wrote:

isn't there a plane of battle that will ressurect fallen warriors daily? Ysgard? Based on Asgard of Norse myth?

Have the gods of battle collectively host and be the panel of judges. An inevitable might be the field referee.

Prize... um +4 vicious adamentine weapon? A wish?

Yes, there is. Only those who fight with honor come back, and it's an aligned plane. Not really neutral ground.

There are spells that can avoid death and can be used on the Civic Festhall of Sigil for instance, actually, it has happened sometimes.


Xum wrote:
fictionfan wrote:
Xum wrote:
RedPorcupine wrote:
Xum wrote:

Only Gods can't enter Sigil. "Outsiders" fighting are actualy normal. They are not outsiders at all there, the players normaly are.

Well, yes. And with Level 11 it´s totally legitimate to stare wide-eyed and keep low profile. Wasn´t the Bloodwar at least sort of banned from the city ?

Depends on the time you will be playing.

It looks like our guy there isn't going canon after all, cause the Lady of Pain NEVER interacts.
So, he can do what he please. But going with a LOT of outsiders is the least he can do.
And the prize seem a little ... méh from what I can see.
What would you recommend for a prize? It should be something that can't be bought and that would bring in people that would normally not go for this sort of thing, but although it should be very good it should not destroy the campaign if the players get it.

A Minor artifact.

A demi-plane.
An association in one of the factions, with high ranking post.
A map.
The real answer to one question.

Stuff like that, I would go with a map OR the Demi-plane.

The BEST one would be a Deck of Many things. I love mixed blessings, but they shouldn't know the prize. The prize is "A POWERFUL ARTIFACT" and then, the Deck, it's awesome.

PLEASE don't use the Lady, she is too cool to interact.

And don't be afraid to put powerful outsiders there.


fictionfan wrote:
Xum wrote:
RedPorcupine wrote:
Xum wrote:

Only Gods can't enter Sigil. "Outsiders" fighting are actualy normal. They are not outsiders at all there, the players normaly are.

Well, yes. And with Level 11 it´s totally legitimate to stare wide-eyed and keep low profile. Wasn´t the Bloodwar at least sort of banned from the city ?

Depends on the time you will be playing.

It looks like our guy there isn't going canon after all, cause the Lady of Pain NEVER interacts.
So, he can do what he please. But going with a LOT of outsiders is the least he can do.
And the prize seem a little ... méh from what I can see.
What would you recommend for a prize? It should be something that can't be bought and that would bring in people that would normally not go for this sort of thing, but although it should be very good it should not destroy the campaign if the players get it.

A Minor artifact.

A demi-plane.
An association in one of the factions, with high ranking post.
A map.
The real answer to one question.

Stuff like that, I would go with a map OR the Demi-plane.

PLEASE don't use the Lady, she is too cool to interact.

And don't be afraid to put powerful outsiders there.


RedPorcupine wrote:
Xum wrote:

Only Gods can't enter Sigil. "Outsiders" fighting are actualy normal. They are not outsiders at all there, the players normaly are.

Well, yes. And with Level 11 it´s totally legitimate to stare wide-eyed and keep low profile. Wasn´t the Bloodwar at least sort of banned from the city ?

Depends on the time you will be playing.

It looks like our guy there isn't going canon after all, cause the Lady of Pain NEVER interacts.
So, he can do what he please. But going with a LOT of outsiders is the least he can do.
And the prize seem a little ... méh from what I can see.


RedPorcupine wrote:

Sigil, the City of Doors, Nave of the Multiverse and most importantly neutral ground.

For this occasion i think powerfull outsiders would be allowed to enter the city and fight each other, i guess... way more colourfull.

Not sure if actually only the gods weren´t allowed to enter the city.

Anyways, Sigil is otherwise full of more or less strange factions. I remember the "Merykillers" and "The Harmonium" which definetely would send champions and the "Godkillers" of course.

Throw in demons, devils, outsider, Deva/Angels, bounty-hunters, warriors of reknown and the odd timetraveller, a lich, Dracula, the Hulk, a Valkyrie, Achilles...

Try to get Planescape-stuff to convert and start inventing background stories for different outsiders.

Only Gods can't enter Sigil. "Outsiders" fighting are actualy normal. They are not outsiders at all there, the players normaly are.


fictionfan wrote:
Xum wrote:

Rules for duels exist both in UM for magic contests and UC for martial combat.

The society of sensation would sponsor this for sure. The name of the city of portals is Sigil and the Lady of Pain wouldn't care less about something like this. But, it's your game, so have fun.

A Vorpal Blade is always a good prize.

I picked the city of portals because it is neutral ground so I can have all sorts of people there. I made the lady of pain judge, because I figured that would mean no cheating something my players are not above.

Shalander why do you need contact info? I plan on have a series of duels. I would like a idea for the preliminaries.

There is enough power in sigil to avoid cheating, without going with the lady of pain. Antimagic field in an arena is not unheard of. For instance.

Preliminaries could be tests of might, magic and anything u can think of. More info would indeed help. If it's combat only there is no need for other tests.


Rules for duels exist both in UM for magic contests and UC for martial combat.

The society of sensation would sponsor this for sure. The name of the city of portals is Sigil and the Lady of Pain wouldn't care less about something like this. But, it's your game, so have fun.

A Vorpal Blade is always a good prize.


I agree on the eidolon part, but saying you can use a bite without a mouth is just plain ludicrous. Why not clawas on the eyelashes then?

That's ridiculous as an argument.


About the bite being one per head. It says so at the extra head evolution for an eidolon.

I think Claws should be limited to the hands, and there should be only talons at the 'feet'.

In anyway, I see no reason why the feet cannot be used to attack, since a human can use them with the hands without a problem.


Bear in mind, gentleman, that when you get an extra feat you can choose anything that you qualify for. If you get a specific feat that has pre-req you get it even if you don't. It' brings a complicated math to the equation, I know. But that's the way it's suposed to be.

I think some feats should cost less anyway. But it's complicated to do so considering the costs so far.

In my groups we ALL get an extra feat at first level, and in ALL games I played (since 3.5 came out) a LOT of players when making their chars said .... "I have an extra feat... what do I get?"

All I'm saying is, yes, it helps but it's much less valuable as you assume it is, at first level the options aren't as AWESOME as you would believe.


Taleek wrote:
It was also my understanding that melee touch attacks don't require concentration checks because they don't provoke AoO, is this correct?

The spellcasting provokes as normal. The melee touch, does not.

So, you cast and provoke and when you touch, you do not.


The Speaker in Dreams wrote:
Xum wrote:

Main problem with feats is jus that, they have completelly diferent power levels, even those without level requirements.

Too many absurd or just plain bad pre-req. Without those bad pre-requisite feats however the humans do get a better use of their extra feat.

I remember the time when you would get 1 or 2 levels of fighter just to get pre-req feats, and I still see it happening, that's a problem that cannot be solved in this edition, and will never be solved until Feat inflation stops.

ok ... so if there is an acknowlwdged feat value issue, how is it a good thing to value feats higher than their actual in-system value?

Point being: I am not seeing how it is beneficial to a race building system to charge an outrageous premium on a general purpose mechanical artifact of little inherent (ie: feat = feat, and 1 feat/2 levels) value.

You misunderstood me mate. I'm on your side.

I'm considering my own old way of building races here, where 10RP is worth one level or ECL. In that 'system' 3 feats were worth 10 points or 9.
The feat issue is one of NEED. Many builds NEED feats that they don't want to,k or will hardly (if ever) use, combat expertise for instance. And that just plain sucks, bear in mind too that there is a certain number of feats that you can take at first level, so the more "extra feats" you have at first level the less powerful it is.


Pentar wrote:
bigkilla wrote:

I might be more inclined to go with number 1. as it says under the spell storing quality

Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, [b]the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.[b]

The weapon doesn't have to cast the spell it can. Which I would kind of assume would need a whole new roll to hit.

I tend to lean towards this too - mainly because the Spellstrike ability is a special and specific ability provided to the Magus. If anyone can replicate it with a +1 Enhancement bonus weapon property, it seems sort of a lame power to give a class.

I'll probably stick with my Ruling #1 for now.

Thanks for the input

Spellstrike and spell storing are hardly similar. Spell storing has a 3rd level spell limit, must be a targeted spell and once it's discharged, you need to charge it again, taking you a round to do so (or Quicken).

It works on the event that you hit and damage the target, it shouldn't give you an "extra attack" I think the idea is that it hits and it discharges imediatelly (hence the free action) and it benefits from the critical damage done by the weapon.
Furthermore, it stacks with spellstriking, so you could hit a guy with spellstrike, crit and deal both spells as if they were critical hits.
Very powerful, but not an everyround ability.


The Speaker in Dreams wrote:
Thalin wrote:

... but feats are interesting and fun, and they define your character. Archers who start from 1 don't want to wait an extra level to be "online", they want point blank / precise from the outset, with rapid at 3. Weapon masters want that combat expertise / improved trip right away.

Humans are popular because most games start from 1 and end around 10; and humans get to play more of those levels fully functional.

There is a reason they end up the most popular race; flexibility in feat chains for early levels is huge.

No argument. It is a good human feature -as they get +1 more feature (earlier) than all other races ... at the cost of a whole slew of racial boons others get. It is a fair trade, but still leaves humans wanting by comparison.

More interestingly, though, I read the above assessment and I am not thinking about how much better humans are, but rather how screwed melee classes are. An archer needs to invest 2 feats (impossible for all but humans at 1stthe level) to be "online"? Meanwhile casters are good to go from the word go.

I see only greater reason, then, to devalue what a feat is worth by comparison.

Again, my assesment comes from the games baked in value assessment of feats popping up at 1/2 levels. It is a relatively "cheap" resource to the system itself. Keep in mind, too, that it is not like the system values feat x differently from feat y, mind you. They arw all just "+1 feat" and that is it.

Main problem with feats is jus that, they have completelly diferent power levels, even those without level requirements.

Too many absurd or just plain bad pre-req. Without those bad pre-requisite feats however the humans do get a better use of their extra feat.

I remember the time when you would get 1 or 2 levels of fighter just to get pre-req feats, and I still see it happening, that's a problem that cannot be solved in this edition, and will never be solved until Feat inflation stops.


Magicdealer wrote:

100 points doesn't really impress me :/ Sorry :/ I might be jaded from spending too much time on the forums though.

Might be comparable to that ninja/synthesist that was running something like 340 dpr on the big attack chain at 12, or the 300ish your level 12 polearm guy was dealing.

You seem like you want to change your argument from talking about feral to complaining about natural attacks in general, which is fine.

That doesn't really work out well though because natural attacks are available to anyone regardless of class. One feat for a bite, two feats for claws. Access for all.

Of course, most builds just won't get that much damage increase from a bite or two claw attacks. It takes a specialized build to eke noteworthy damage from them. But anyone who min-maxes much can tell you that there is a significant opportunity cost in picking up bite/claw attacks. Abilities that you give up on having, in return for them. So they end up being a marginal increase *or decrease* compared to the other abilities they could pick up.

A fifth level half-orc barbarian, for example, will have three feats and two traits (maybe). He could spend a trait grabbing a bite attack, but in exchange he would give up accelerated drinker or reactionary or berserker of the society. He could spend two feats grabbing the claw attacks, or he could spend them on power attack and weapon focus. Of course, weapon focus won't be quite as valuable now since it doesn't affect all his attacks, just one type. And there's always another feat that argues to be a payoff in more situations. It really restricts the value of natural attacks. Where you see that value most is at low levels, when most classes are looking at just one attack. A level one or two character with two attacks from twf and a couple attacks from natural weapons just looks disgusting. Until you realize that at those levels, you drop most enemies with one or two hits anyways. So most of those attacks go to waste during the move>attack phase. Same problem that's plagued melee...

Thanks again mate. You are saying everything right.


Are you guys finally gonna put racial class options for the Magus and the Gunslinger?

I realize the other classes are alternate, so they would get the bonuses the original classes do, right?


Well, I play an AD&D game with a very old school DM. This game has been going on for 10 years and it uses a modified version of AD&D that EVERYONE likes more then the original, but no DRASTIC change there.

In my opnion, my DM is a freaking genius and although we disagree on ocasion, the game is fun cause it's ALL about the roleplaying and we don't worry too much about the rules, cause we are sure he is gonna be fair, and that's key. If your players don't trust you, the game will suck for them, been there, done thar. If they do, they won't mind you controling something like the ones you proposed.

Now, for a way I love to increase atributes. In that game we gain "Character points" when we do cool actions, gain level and stuff, there are several ways they can be spent but for ability scores is a simple way.
You pay the number of CP you want your ability score to go to, and then comes the fun part.
The DM has a sheet or something in his mind about how you've been roleplaying and performing in each ability score, and he has something predetermined of how easy it will be to go up on said ability score.
Going from 9 to 10 will have a 70% rate of sucess (or something of the like) plus bonuses or penalties depending on how you acted on said ability score. Going from 18 to 19 will have a probability of 5% or something.
With that in mind, after you pay your CP you roll the percentual dice with the probability the DM sees fit. It is AWESOME for us, and we love it.

The cool part is, you don't lose the points, everytimes you gain a level or pay some extra points you have another chance at it, and this chance is improved, cause you he considers you are actually trying to improve that Stat and if you do stuff in game to improve those odds it will too.

Consider something around those lines and be fair, I assure you, it's awesome, and to see everyone at the table cheering for you to roll that die and get to Strength 20 is serious fun.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:
What's really funny here is that you don't address the point of FCT being overpowered, since you don't use it in that build at all. You're only pointing out how natural attacks can be used to add to any combination, which further illustrates how the lack of them penalizes the monk, and provides weight for allowing the monk to get the attacks in addition to the rest of the classes. Also - *zot*

What's really funny is all the people moaning about monks (and what-not-else) being allegedly so horribly screwed because they can't hit like a dump-truck through a fruit-stand at 4th or 5th as can the Broken Jones down the street.

What it really "provides weight" for is smacking the Broken Jones with a 500 ton Nerf bat.

Quote:
Thanks to wildrager, you need a dc 11 will save or become confused and attack the nearest creature. Thanks to your minus 2, you've got a 65% chance of failing and becoming confused.
That's why I called it irresponsible (only a jerk player would make something like that for a cooperative campaign such as PFS; the build is tailored to go nuts and kill its allies). -- But you could make almost the same thing with Crusader's Flurry and FCT; it'd just take a little longer.

Well. I'm not gonna argue no more, since you are just being stubborn now. But it's been fun anyway. I'll stay completely fine agreeing on disagreeing.


Cheapy wrote:

3.5. Savage Species, page 116.

Don't let him.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


Realmwalker wrote:
Xum wrote:

I want to create an exercise for race construction, I'll post something and I want you guys to help me out to create said Race, even if it's a subrace, like the one I'm posting below.

Worry not about points, do what you believe is reasonable, taking the story into consideration. Can you do it?

Create a Race that is the son of an Azlanti Woman, and the Father is an Orc Herald of Dahak.

So.... go!

Standard, Advanced, or Monstrous... how many RP

Don't worry about that. Use good sense as a reference. Imagine you are creating it for a book. BTW, I don't have to say that the Orc Herald of Dahak is a Half Dragon, right?

Thanks for the reply.


You're gonna love this one

01 Fight1 (Unarmed)- [Imp. Unnarmed], Dragon Style, 2-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack
02 barb1 - Nada
03 barb2 [L. Beast totem], I don’t know… Imp. Initiative? Extra R. Power?
04 barb3 STR>(bump)(buy Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists)
05 barb4 [Animal Fury] Dragon Ferocity (Buy Belt)

Ok, I’ll go with the same Abilities and potion u did.

Attacks: unarmed strike Flurry: 2x primary + two claw + 1 Bite: 3x secondary
US bonus: 3(FLAB)+7(STR)-1(size)+2(Furious)-2(Power Attack) = +9/+9
Claw bonus: -5(secondary) -2(Power Attack) = +5/+5
Bite: -5(secondary) -2(Power Attack) = +5

Damage: (Unarmed) 1d4+19/1d4+14 = 21.5+16.5
Claws: 1d8+9/1d8+9 = 2x 13.5
Bite: 1d6+9 = 12.5

78.5 …

Hum... I'll hit as often as you, deal more damage, more attacks, more HP, wear armor without losing abilities, rage more ... Something must be wrong right?

Again, can you PROVE that FCT is broken? Cause u've been doing a poor job mate...


Now, just for fun.

01 barb1 Imp. Unnarmed, 2-Weapon Fighting
02 barb2 [beast totem:lesser]
03 barb3 Dragon Style
04 barb4 STR>(bump),[Animal Fury](buy Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists),
05 barb5 Dragon Ferocity

Ok, I’ll go with the same Abilities and potion u did.
Attacks: unarmed strike Flurry: 2x primary + two claw + 1 Bite: 3x secondary
US bonus: 3(FLAB)+7(STR)-1(size)+2(Furious) = +11/+11;
Claw bonus: -5(secondary) = +7/+7; Bite: -5(secondary)= +7
Damage: (Unarmed) 1d4+15/1d4+12 = 17.5+14.5
Claws:1d8+5/1d8+5 = 2x 9.5
Bite:1d6+5 = 8.5
Now, that’s 10 points less then your average.

But I'll hit, and I’m not using power attack, it get bonkers when you start leveling and extra attacks, mighty rage and pounce start doing their jobs WAY sooner then your build there.
And when I get power attack too.

Ah, bear in mind that I’m making 4 attacks at level TWO. Not losing anything for multi classing and all that, that’s just ONE build possible I can make it WAY better then it is now, that's just joking around, tell me again why FCT is so UBER powerful?


ciretose wrote:


A “trade” system works much better, and is what is basically currently in place.

If you mean what I think you do. That system ALREADY exists and WILL be expanded in that same book.

This has nothing to do with the Race Creation rules.


I want to create an exercise for race construction, I'll post something and I want you guys to help me out to create said Race, even if it's a subrace, like the one I'm posting below.
Worry not about points, do what you believe is reasonable, taking the story into consideration. Can you do it?

Create a Race that is the son of an Azlanti Woman, and the Father is an Orc Herald of Dahak.

So.... go!


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Pointless arguments, just for the sake or arguments is what I'm seeing.

The system should be as sound as possible, and compatible with what we already have, and most importantly balanced with itself (Hardy and Halfling Luck as the clear examples)

Saying "Oh, but then he can build the Uber Race for said class" is ludicrous, cause as it was said time and again, this is a DM tool, not a player tool. Sure, you can let your player build their own race, or even improve on some aspects of it, but this is not like selecting a Class, it's not a players choice, it's a DM's one.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Xum wrote:
I still can't understand why people want to nerf this so bad.

Let's test a build in which flurry and totem stack:

01 barb1 Extra Rage, Power Attack
02 barb2 [beast totem:lesser]
03 monk1 [martial artist][Improved Grapple], Weapon Focus:Claw
04 monk2 STR>(bump),[Deflect Arrows],(buy Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists),
05 monk3 [pain points], Feral Combat Training, (buy Belt STR+2)

5th-level tactics: drink always-held-in-hand potion of Enlarge Person in surprise round; let enemies advance (hopefully several will adjacent or nearly so).

STR: assume starting score of 19 and advanced to 20 at 4th, rage to 24, size and belt bring to 28.

Attacks: unarmed strike Flurry: 2x primary + two claw: 2x secondary
US bonus: 3(FLAB)+7(STR)-1(size)+2(Furious)-2(Power Attack) = +9/+9;
claw bonus: -5(secondary)+1(Weapon Focus) = +5/+5; dmg: d8+9
Damage: d8+7(STR)+2(Furious)+4(Power Attack) = ~ 4x(17.5)
2d6+10+1+6

...on paper that looks mediocre: capacity for damage is sick, but ability to hit with secondaries isn't.

However, any single event granting you an attack bonus advantage (elevation, foe tripped, grappled, denied DEX, armor sundered, etc) applies to all of your attacks, potentially permitting 70 average non-crit damage at 5th level -- if any two of the four attacks connect, you will insta-drop 100% of level-appropriate mooks and 50% of bosses.

Worse cheese: claims the claws are on your feet, and flurry with a 2d6 (Enlarged) +1 temple sword held in both hands to 1.5x both STR and PA -- pushing average all-four-hit damage to 83.

-- Note that this works just as well by taking two monk levels first, then switching away from lawful alignment (so it's not like you need Ultimate Combat or other splat to pull it off).

(Intra-party cheese: paladin ally trains his horse to do nothing but Improved Trip with its three attacks, then lets the feral cheesemonkbarian ride it; everybody in the party starts tripping things and throwing nets, etx. GM finally...

Thank you! I loved that you did this yourself. You just proved that Feral Combat training is nothing serious.

It looks mediocre because it IS mediocre. The things you stated as 'cheese' (cause they are) can be done with any character of any class, with any feat chain.

The Orcling Oscar is better then the character you made, and he doesn't even have Feral Combat training.... now, explain to me how does that post you made prove in anyway that FCT is OP!? It proves just the oposite, so, again, Thanks.

EDIT: Of course, Orcling Oscar is totally wrong and doesn't work at all, but ok.


I think most of that argument is moot.
You guys are threating this as if it was a BOOK, and it's just a chapter. 70% of what is being proposed, won't be there.
What we can expect is balance between RACES, ignoring the class you are going to take, that road lies madness.

We must think about races in a vacuum, without classes. How good are they in regard with each other, not if take class X or class Y.


voska66 wrote:


Using Natural Attacks with Weapons or Unarmed strike: from the PRD under Combat
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."

Under the Monk Class Flurry of Blows in the PRD
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks."

Feral combat Feat PRD:
"You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the...

Now THAT, we agree on.


Grick wrote:

There are 14 FAQ's on the Sunder Thread earlier this year, so please stop by and FAQ it if you would like it fixed.

Thanks, will do so to help.

But there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever how it works. Specially cause it's a remnant of previous editions.


TarkXT wrote:
Xum wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


You can do that with teleport, why not D-door, just cause of the line on the spell saying u can't do anything later?
You answered your own question there padre. You can attack before you D.Door but not after.

I thought spell combat would take care of that. But I guess u r right, it doesn't change the rules of the spell.


TarkXT wrote:
Xum wrote:
Doesn't Spell combat already allow you to full attack after teleporting?
Spell Combat does. Dimension door does not.

What I meant was use D-door then full attack.

You can do that with teleport, why not D-door, just cause of the line on the spell saying u can't do anything later?

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