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White Dragon

Xexyz's page

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber. 1,042 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Not sure if this should go here or in general discussion. Anyway, here's a character:

She's from a small village in a remote part of the country. Growing up her dream was to become a member of the Dragon Guard - an elite division of the military whose role is to protect the citizens from rampaging and otherwise troublesome monsters. The happiest day of her life was when she gained acceptance into their ranks after proving her strength and capability. Unfortunately, her idealism was soon challenged when she learned that the vast majority of the Dragon Guard were the children of the nobility whose acceptance into the order was mostly due to familial connections instead of ability. She was looked down upon due to her common origins, but rose in rank due to her outstanding skills and prowess - which only brought more resentment from her genteel comrades.

Her idealism was further eroded when she began to realize that the Dragon Guard had fallen far from its purpose as protectors of the citizens and instead become a tool for noble families to use for their own political intrigues. Her attempts to combat the corruption of the guard ended in disaster as certain members, jealous of her strength and disgusted by her convictions and roots as a commoner, conspired against her and got her framed for trumped up charges. She was stripped of her rank and expelled from the Dragon Guard in disgrace.

Her dreams shattered, she made her return to her village. Dismissal not enough for some of the conspirators, they attempt to then assassinate her but are killed by her in the attempt. She's charged in absentia for their murders, but not really pursued as those in charge prefer to simply let the matter be at rest.

She returns to her village and decides to protect it herself, and doing so very successfully. She tries her best to forget about her past but the anger of being betrays still burns within her. Occasionally some members of the Dragon Guard will pass through her village, and she tolerates it so long as they act in accordance of the Dragon Guard's principles - protecting the village from monsters and in exchange enjoying the hospitality of the village, as is tradition. However, if they neglect their duties or don't treat the villagers respectfully, she kills them. She hates the nobility even more, and if any nobles visit the village and treat the commoners badly she kills them as soon as she can do so without putting the village at risk or giving herself away. Her hatred of the nobility is immense and as far as she's concerned they're the reason the Dragon Guard became corrupt. Any amount of disrespect or mistreatment toward herself or the common people by a noble merits a death sentence in her eyes.

So, given this background, what alignment best fits her?

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Vic Wertz wrote:
Whether or not you read the cards in advance is part of what Mike refers to as "the social contract"—the code of "outside-the-rulebook rules" that each gaming group develops. (Other "social contract" issue include things like whether or not players are allowed to make decisions that harm other players, or how you divvy up Loot cards.) We avoid making rules that impinge on the social contract (though we occasionally have to make them for Organized Play in particular. But I will say that the designers do *not* assume that the players have read cards outside of play.

I always read all of the cards when I get a new deck/set, but always forget about them immediately after I read them, especially the banes. Often times I'll encounter a villain, then encounter it again at another location the next turn or two and will have already forgotten everything about it. Even important stuff like the nasty things it does to me before I can attempt a check to defeat it.

So I guess I have the best of both worlds.

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Jason S wrote:

While I fully realize campaign loot and boons are more powerful, I thought it would be more interesting to pick from the class decks.

I'd also classify some of the promo cards as some of the most powerful cards in the game as well.

Weapon: Invigorating Kukri (recharges to heal). For characters with a lot of weapons (and probably no healing), the flexibility this weapon offers is great.

Spells: Bewilder (more explorations) and Life Leech (arcanist heal spell).

Armor: Reflecting Buckler. Reduces almost all damage by 2 with the option to reveal and recharge it.

Items: Staff of Heaven and Earth. Diverse, can buff combat or remove barriers.

Allies: Fortune-Teller. The ultimate exploration ally.

Blessings: Nethys in a 6 player game (how can you beat exploration, scouting and evasion in a single card?), Lamashtu (or any blessing that will buffs your combat) in 4 player, Gozreh solo/duo.

I actually prefer Dominate to Bewilder. Being able to look at an entire deck and grab the best boon in it is incredible.

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My group just played through the base set adventure. No deaths, but most scenarios weren't won until there were 5 or so blessings left. Some thoughts I have:

1. At least with my group, some of the 'difficulty' of the set is due to people not re-adjusting their playstyle having gone from advanced characters to starting characters.

2. Maybe it's just because it's the base set, but boons seem really weak. It seemed there were hardly any upgrades over the basic cards people started with.

3. Things are more extreme than in previous sets. For example, of the 25 barriers that come in the base set, 9 don't do any harm at all, while the remaining 16 tend to be very vicious. Also compare locations such as the Manor House and Armory to places like the Abbatior and Torture Chamber.

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Lisa Stevens wrote:
PS: It is good to have cards that you hate in the game. Makes you feel really good when you overcome them. It is like triumphing against adversity.

Stuff like that fills me with dread more than actual hate; but I agree you need cards like this. The anxiety of going through a heavy-barrier deck and running across Crawling Cyclops Hand or Albatross Soup ensured I kept a blessing around for such occasions.

(As far as actual hate, I don't think I'll ever hate a card as much as I hate the Ivory Dice.)

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Here are the pros of each role as I see them.

Sea Witch:

++Ability to recharge instead of discard an ally to get a spell back.
++Blessing of Hshurha is better than Blessing of Pharasma. Also being able to recharge a blessing on any aquatic bane check is better than recharging to pick up an ally.
+Getting +2d4 on a Fortitude and eventually Survival check.
+Being able to move after closing a location.


++Succeed at a Craft and eventually Arcane check to potentially draw a card.
+Recharge Blessing of Pharasma.
+Swap an evaded monster for one in the box.

I'll have to see how deck 3 plays out. If I can get my hands on some Blessings of Hshurha I'll definitely go Sea Witch, but if not I may end up going Hexer since I already have 4 Blessings of Pharasma.

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Speaking of Ekkie, is she being released as a playable character ala Ranzak?

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I'm playing Feiya with my friend playing Heggal and we're about to start deck 3. I'm leaning Sea Witch but haven't decided yet, but I have 4 Blessings of Pharasma already and no Blessings of Hshurha.

Any Feiya players want to chime in?

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But that's not until after our game today! *whine*

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They're not on the downloads page yet and everyone in my group is chomping at the bit to get them.

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Orbis Orboros wrote:
Calthaer wrote:
Elizabeth Corrigan wrote:
As long as there's no goose in the rigging.
It's my initial estimate is that the Demonic Horde barrier (IIRC that's the name of the card - the one where a random party member has to fight the servitor, times the number of party members) is going to be more...provocative...than any of the ones already mentioned.
Wait, so if it's encountered in a party of six, some poor random schmuck in the party has to fight something SIX times?

Not exactly. Each character randomly chooses a character to encounter the demon. So only if you're really unlucky will one character have to fight all of them.

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When will the WotR character sheets be available for download?

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I also didn't get Andowyn's character card; I double-checked and there were 110 cards in the box.

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I was looking at this since I have some ideas for custom monsters in my campaign, but the process looks a little intimidating.

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I'm a subscriber, so it looks like I should be getting it soon?

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I thought the game didn't come out until the 27th. What's going on?

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Casual Mishap wrote:
Heavily, since they wear heavy armour.

And easily, since most don't put a lot into Dex.

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bookrat wrote:
I'll add on to it from an in-game point of view: most people in a polythiestic society freely worship all deities, depending on the prayer and the associated events (harvest, travel, etc...). I would easily consider these worshipers to be devoted for the purposes of your spell restrictions.

OMG, this is a great point and one I totally forgot about when I first posted. You're right, most of the people in the world would be Polytheistic: A farmer gets up in the morning and says a prayer to Belan, God of Wind and the Sky, because she needs the rains to come so her crop will be successful. That evening at dinner she and her family offers thanks to Redeif, God of Wealth and the Hearth for the prosperity they enjoy, and at night before she goes to bed she offers thanks to Lynnain, Goddess of Life, for the fact she and her family are healthy.

So having rethought this, now I'm more inclined to think that the good and neutral gods would not be so strict, but the evil gods would.

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Grey_Mage wrote:

What happens to the souls of the fallen?

If they go to the plane of their deity, then your idea works perfectly, as the deity's followers "release" the soul as the spell is cast. The deity may choose release the soul soul even if someone outside the faith casts raise dead.

If they go to an underworld, like Hades, you can flavor the spell effect as the deity's minions mount an escape for it. In this case the deity and followers wouldn't take this risk for someone outside their faith.

Hmmm... I haven't really thought about this.

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@Decimus - Witches are looked down upon in my homebrew world by divine types not just because of being able to raise dead but because of the source of their magic period.

As far a the scroll issue is concerned I looked back on my notes and can't find evidence I gave the PCs a scroll of Raise Dead like I thought I did, so it may be a moot issue.

@VRMH - I was thinking along those lines. Something like if you're not a follower of the god you can get raised but you'll owe the faith a service (in addition to the normal cost of being raised).

@archmagi1 - Yeah, I really like the idea of having to go to some witch in order to get raised if you want to avoid a church.

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Decimus Drake wrote:

I think it depends on how likely death is for your players and how accessible alternative means raising the dead are. Also it could be considered unfair if you're only just introducing this restriction to a game in progress. As a player I'd be ok with such a restriction if I'm made aware of it before I create my character so that I can take it into consideration.

I do kind of like the idea from a thematic stand point though. Will you be having witches and if so how does their ability to raise the dead relate to these pantheons?

1. I would be introducing this in game.

2. One of my players had a witch character (player unfortunately had to quit due to scheduling conflicts) so it's established they exist. Witches in my game however are looked upon with suspicion by divine types and keep a low profile. Since they're not divine casters, however, their raise spells would work as normal.
3. The one thing I'm not so sure about are those spells being cast from scrolls. The PCs do have a scroll of raise dead in their possession, so it's something I'd have to figure out.

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My group is pretty large so people missing sessions is quite common. We'll always go back to let someone play a scenario they missed so long as it's within 1 deck of where the advanced characters are. Myself and a couple other regulars have several characters going at once, so we usually have an appropriately advanced character to play with those who lag behind.

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Troymk1 wrote:

And what a finish it was. Last possible explore turns up the Hurricane King with all his evil minions taken care of

Seltyiel is able to deal with both checks, his 3d6 for a spell on top of his Adamantine trident being up to the task ( with a little bit of help from his friends of course)

Congrats to the design team and to everyone involved. That was pure awesome

What a great win!

I've mentioned this before, but I feel that deck 6 of S&S was their best adventure deck yet, and I hope that quality continues on into WotR.

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So in my homebrew campaign I have my own pantheon of gods. It's a pretty standard pantheon with gods representing the typical concepts you see in a such fantasy pantheons; There's a Goddess of Nature, a God of War, Goddess of Death, etc. Due to the background of how the pantheon came to power there are a few peculiarities:

1. All divine casters get their spellcasting from a specific deity, with the exception of most druids and some rangers (haven't figured out how hunters fit into this).
2. The power of a deity is directly influenced by its amount of worshipers and/or the prevalence of it's portfolio in the world.

Given these two facts, is it reasonable to decide (from a GM standpoint) that raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection spells will only work on followers of the faith? So, for example, in my game one of the PCs is a 9th level cleric of Malador; would it be unfair if I told him that Malador only grants the gift of a 2nd lease on life to his devoted followers?

I'm mostly asking from a meta-game/fairness point of view, since thematically restricting these spells makes sense to me.

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Kudaku wrote:

We ran smack dab into this problem in the campaign we just started, with a bladebound magus who was somewhat less than thrilled when he realized that the weapon enchantment from ABP wouldn't interact well with his black blade.

We solved it by giving the magus a gold reward equal to the bonus he would normally grant to his sword. Whenever the other party members increase the bonus of their weapon, he receives an unexpected inheritance, wins the local lottery or otherwise come into some extra cash. It's a little forced, but it solves the problem fairly well.

Yeah, one of the PCs in my game is a bladebound magus, and I was thinking of ways to compensate him. The blackblade still gets its enhancement progression faster than ABP at lower levels, so there's that.

At first I thought I'd let him add his weapon ABP to his arcane pool enhancement, but then I realized he'd be able to give his character a vorpal weapon at level 9 - the PC's current level - and I'm not entirely comfortable with that.

I'm mulling just adding the ABP weapon bonus as extra points to his character's arcane pool.

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I'm really interested in using the Automatic Bonus Progression; I'm mulling converting my existing campaign to use the system but I'll have to get player buy-in and then will have to adjust a bunch of NPCs.

I ran some numbers and even with WBL cut in half, PC equivalent WBL (new WBL + value of ABP stats if you bought the magic items that grant them) is in excess than standard wealth for every level past 3. The average EqvWBL over StdWBL on a level-for-level basis is about 9.5%.

Although characters are locked into when they receive their bonuses, there is one part that allows some customization not normally possible with standard stat items: At several levels when you get enhancement bonuses to your stats you have options for an uneven stat distribution. For example, at 13th level you get +4 to one physical/mental stat and +2 to another, which isn't possible using standard items. At 15th level you can divide your bonus to your mental stats as either +6/+2 or +4/+4.

One minor downside is that ABP somewhat trivializes classes with features that grant them similar bonuses, such as paladins who bond with their weapon or bladebound magi.

I think one of the biggest benefits of the ABP system are for campaigns (like mine) which make heavy use of NPC antagonists with class levels. With the regular system it's difficult to gear them up according to the WBL guidelines without inundating the PCs with magic items, the majority of which would just be sold anyway. It also makes them tougher since they'll be getting the equivalent of gear they couldn't normal afford from NPC wealth guidelines.

The one change I would probably make is to not eliminate the pure stat boosting items so that certain extreme wealthy characters (nobles, rich merchants) would be able to buy their stats higher with their money. I don't think this would be particularly game breaking since pure stat boosting items would be much rarer and PCs would be unlikely to use them anyway.

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Tanis O'Connor wrote:
Xexyz wrote:
at the Catabombs of Wrath.
Wow, we missed an opportunity here.

I, I don't know what happened there...

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Andrew L Klein wrote:
Xexyz wrote:
Crowe AND Seoni? How will I ever choose???
By picking Crowe, duh!

You're probably right. I played Seoni in RotR my first Wrath playthrough will have to be Crowe. I can't wait to see his card list and role cards!

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Crowe AND Seoni? How will I ever choose???

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Vic Wertz wrote:
Wrath is going to tempt you with many things.

This makes me nervous. One of the players in my group will always succumb to temptation. He will always stick his hand in Melfeshnakor's Pit, he'll always do "one more explore" when he's down to two cards in hand and one of them is his explore card, and he will always say "don't worry I got this" when he has no combat in his hand and he's going exploring at the Catabombs of Wrath.

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Eltacolibre wrote:
Well technically there is the monstrous mount feat.

Awesome, thanks.

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Eltacolibre wrote:
Don't hesitate to give him an impressive mount, as a NPC after all, you can break some rules, if it is cooler. A Lesser Bandersnatch sounds like it would be a cool mount for your Shadan.

I was thinking about this. Are there any feats around for improving your mount/animal companion?

Edit: Looking at the mammoth rider prestige class for a 1-2 level dip.

I know as the GM I can simply give him whatever I want, but I try to keep things RAW as much as I can - especially since a lot of NPCs I make for my game I kind of use as test-runs for PC concepts I may be interested in as a player.

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Hark wrote:
Now that is a very good argument for him being a Samurai. Resolve would serve to greatly mitigate this issue. Though Samurai and Fell Rider aren't compatible, which could be an issue. Not that I would recommend Fell Rider for a strategist, so much as shock troops.

Not really. There aren't any real class features that exist which bolster concept such as being a great military commander or having political aptitude. Those are in the realm of skills: Profession (soldier) for military ability and KN: Nobility plus bluff/intimidate/diplomacy/sense motive for politics. Having a mediocre Will save isn't really an issue because enchantment/charm spells don't dictate political intrigue - especially in hobgoblin society, where arcane casters are rare.

That said, I may juggle his stats around to put more points into wisdom since profession skills are key off it.

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Cap. Darling wrote:

I was commenting that your system rewaeds stat dumping more than even normal point buy. If you are good with your hero being a unimpressive combatant and just above normal Intelligence then there is no problem. I suggest you put his str to 18 and that will be good pehaps for dex 12.

Oh, I see your point. That's my bad; I forgot to include in the description of my system that I don't allow more than one stat to be an 8; basically PCs & NPCs are allowed to dump a single stat and only down to 8. Also good point about the Str vs. Dex; don't know why I didn't do that, especially since he wears heavy armor.

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Insain Dragoon wrote:
Still have no idea how overuns, charges, charge through, and other stuff related to it work.

Funny you mention this, because it's the exact issue I'm having frustrations with right now. I noticed in one of the threads that it was addressed in the FAQ, but search as I might I can't find anything.

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@Shandren - Thanks for the suggestion but I've decided that he's a fell rider cavalier.

Now I just have to figure out how to build him, since I'm still not totally sure how overrun works.

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Cap. Darling wrote:

Your stat generating system is terrible. Avarage 13 give him 3, 18s and 3, 8s and a magic hat to compensate for the bad mentals. You dont need half baked home made stat generating systems when you as a GM make NPCs just give him the stats you think a great general and Leader should have.

Edit: if you insist on your stat system make him a daring champion who dump str or a Spell caster that is SAD.

I don't understand what you're saying here. What do you mean, '13 give him 3, 18s and 3'? My stat system was worked just fine, so I see no reason to change it - with my system he ended up with a 16, 14, 16, 12, 10, 14 after racial modifiers. I'm certainly not going to make him a caster or dump strength, especially since I don't need to. I don't understand why you think I should; was I not clear on how the system works?

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I agree something needs to be done. It's so frustrating to see a question answered in the FAQ but then be unable to find it.

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Settled on the Fell Rider archetype. Now I just have to create a build to take advantage of its strengths. So far I'm thinking of using the tactician ability to allow Shadan to grant teamwork feats to his mount, since per tactician allies granted feats don't need to meet the prerequisites. Both taking Outflank and then using tactician to give the mount the Pack Flanking seems pretty tasty.

Question: When using the overrun maneuver while mounted, does the rider or the mount make the CMB check for the maneuver?

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@Hark, Tangaroa- Alright, you've sold me. I had to agonize over it because ranger is just so good but I'm gonna go with cavalier. I looked at the various orders and Order of the Lion I feel is extremely appropriate for him thematically.

Now I just have to decide upon an archetype. I like the fell rider but am not quite committed yet.

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@Eltacolibre- I forgot about that archetype, definitely gonna check that out.

@Phillip- Interesting. He's certainly a follower of Kogyr, the God of War (who's also LE) so a religious leader isn't out of the question. The only thing is that I don't see him as especially pious, so warpriest just doesn't quite fit. I'll have to think about this some more.

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Aelryinth wrote:

Unfortunately, the other core classes won't give you what you want.

He should have an awesome mount, and animal companion does that. Druidic magic gives him access to healing, buffs, and lets him nova against a foe who probably won't expect him to be popping a +8 FE bonus on demand.

Ugh, I know. Damn the ranger for being so good!

Aelryinth wrote:

Call him a Blessed Knight of the Blood Hunt, and call it done. The only thing he won't have is heavy armor, but a General doesn't need that. He can just wear glamered armor, instead.


Not sure what you mean here. I'm not hesitant on ranger because of thematic reasons, I'm hesitant because I've just recently built a bunch of rangers and the thought of making another one doesn't bring a lot of enthusiasm to me.

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Aelryinth wrote:

Stay away from Core Fighter unless you want to do some heavy editing. You don't have the skill points or class features to do what you want.

In terms of battlefield command, I'd recommend one of the Cavaliars, specifically because their banner effects are a boost on the battlefield.

However, if you want smart and skilled, you can't do wrong with a Ranger. With the right FE (specifically, his own race of hobgoblins, and whoever the main enemies are), he can get some NICE skill bonuses against them, which helps him avoid entanglements with his own people and one-up the mere fighters among the enemy.

Go ahead, check out the skill bonuses FE gives you. The bonuses to Sense Motive alone to understand the battle plans of the enemy will be invaluable, and you've the skill points to pick up numerous side skills without gimping the character.

Or, to put it another way, you can grab Sense Motive, Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Perception, and THEN grab all the skills a fighter would.

And you can take the Guide Archetype to give you FE bonus away to those you command. Good times.

Rangers make better classic fighters then fighters do.


Yeah, the fighter archetype I was specifically thinking was the tactician, specifically for the extra skill points. Ranger is good for all the reasons you mentioned, and additionally when I imagine him the idea of him having some mean, burly, creature companion keeps popping into my mind.

I'm mostly dismissing the teamwork abilities since they're purely small scale. Shadan is the general of entire armies; his days of participating in the battles tactically are behind him. Unfortunately to my knowledge the teamwork abilities tend to have a small radius and/or only effect a limited number of allies.

My only hesitation of ranger is I've statted up a bunch of them recently and am kind of itching for something different.

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I'm looking for ideas to stat up an NPC. It's not an NPC I have any firm plans of using, but I find that creating NPCs can spur my imagination for creating other background and details of my homebrew world, Mythralia.

Shadan, of the House of Danesh, is the supreme commander of the western armies of the Kurmunian Empire. The Kurmunian Empire is a hobgoblin empire (specifically Gyrran Hobgoblins) that covers 60% of the continent of Gajilae, the largest continent on the planet - and therefore is the largest state in the world. Here's what I know about Shadan himself:

1. He's an accomplished warrior - therefore a martial class - who earned his position through skill and merit, eschewing the use of his house's political influence.
2. He's the most skilled battlefield commander in the entire empire in terms of use of military tactics and strategy. Every one one of his campaigns has been successful.
3. He has enough political acumen to avoid the high-level intrigues of the ruling classes of the empire.
4. As he is a hobgoblin, he's lawful evil.
5. He's not a barbarian or bloodrager.

So far I'm thinking ranger, fighter, or cavalier, but am undecided. Thoughts?

Some mechanics in case anyone's interested in statting him up:

1. Shadan is 16th level with heroic NPC wealth.
2. I use a custom stat generation method. You assign values (not points) to your stats, the total of which must add up to 78 before racial modifiers, each stat must fall in the 8 - 18 range.
3. Shadan is a Gyrran Hobgoblin, which have the following racial stats - Medium size, 30ft. movement, +2Dex/+2Con, 60ft. Darkvision, Endurance feat, +4 to saves against poison & disease, +2 to saves against fear effects, proficient with warhammers & glaive-guirsames.

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ConfusedPeon wrote:

By RAW it doesn't work. Since you're creating beams to bar the door, you'd be affecting the door, not the people breaking it down. Thus it's the door that should be making the will save.

Unfortunately, objects always succeed on their save against shadow conjuration (as per the last line of the spell text), so the spell shouldn't have any effect on someone trying to break the door down.

Except for the fact that even if the save is made, the object is still 60% real. So it would seem then you have a metal bar that's 60% as strong as a real metal bar. The DC to bend an iron bar is 24, so in this case the DC to bend the shadow bar would be 14 then? Hmmm...

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Secane wrote:

"Shadow conjurations are only one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things"

So I guess it would be a metal beam with only 1/5 a real metal beam's hp, hardness...etc?

Hmm, I guess that would be correct (although 60% in this case per GSC). So what about question #2 then? Do the people on the other side of the door who are trying to get in automatically count as disbelieving? Or if they realize the door is barred to they count as believing until they get a chance to interact with the bar, per the normal illusion rules?

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Consider the following scenario: A an arcane caster is fleeing from enemies and runs through a pair of doors. She looks to bar the doors behind her but has nothing to bar them with. Thinking quickly, she casts greater shadow conjuration to create a metal beam via the spell major creation. What happens?

1. Can she even pick up the metal beam she created, or - since she cast the spell and knows the beam isn't completely real - only have a 60% chance of actually interacting with it?

2. Suppose instead she conjures the beam right into the door's baring mounts (the doors open inward and there are a pair of mounts on either side for a baring beam). Does this actually work when the enemies try to get through the door? The enemies on the other side have no idea there's even an effect in place since it's on the other side of the door. Does the shadow beam keep the door shut, does it fail, or does it have a 60% chance of working?

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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Nonononono see the core rogue sucks because—

*Last bit of oxygen is used up by arguing*

*Loots KC's corpse.*

Anyone want some free stuff? It's not in the best condition.

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I haven't thought of doing anything mechanically to improve the bastard sword (one of my favorite weapons aesthetically) but in my homebrew game you can pick up proficiency with it from a trait.

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Aelryinth wrote:

But with no training, you can't add that kind of story even if you want to.

Which basically cuts free a whole genre of adventures. Being able to find a master who can teach you in a great secret is at the heart of SO many stories.

Irrelevant in PF.


That's the point. If I wanted to tell that kind of story I'd have training requirements. I don't want to tell that story, so they're not there. And if I at some point decide I do want to incorporate those types of stories, training will then become a thing. See how simple that was?

Sorry if I'm not playing the game the way you think I should be playing, but I'm not going to change it just because in your view I'm having wrongbadfun with my existing game.

Aelryinth wrote:

Those arguments come down to DM Fiat and changing existing rules.


So what? You speak as though GM fiat is some horrible thing to be avoided at all costs. You seem way too hung up on this notion that for training to be a legitimate thing it has to be officially supported by some Paizo product or supplement. Either that or you think because you like training that it should be codified in the rules as a way of saying that your preferred playstyle is the correct one and people who prefer something else are playing the game wrong.

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