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White Dragon

Xexyz's page

Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber. 1,212 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Devilkiller wrote:
@Xexyz - Ok, I asked partially because since the Wizard was Feebleminded that could make Teleporting away more difficult. Did you cast Heal on the Wizard to cure the Feeblemind? If so I think that shows a pretty good use of healing spells by a Cleric.

Unfortunately I didn't have heal memorized that day because we weren't supposed to be looking for trouble; I had instead memorized 2 wind walk spells so the party could get to Rimeskull from Riddleport.

I was able to teleport myself and the wizard since I get teleport as a domain spell (travel domain).

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In the Black Market player companion there's a feat called Cunning Caster. Here's what it does:


Prerequisite(s): Deceitful, ability to cast 1st-level spells.

Benefit(s): When casting a spell, you can attempt a Bluff check (opposed by observers' Perception checks) to conceal your actions from onlookers. If the spell requires material components, you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check.

If the spell requires somatic components, you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check. If the spell requires verbal components, you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check. If the spell requires a focus or divine focus, you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check. If the spell produces an obvious effect (such as a summoned creature or visible spell effect), you take a –4 penalty on the Bluff check, and even if your check is successful, observers still see the spell effect (though they fail to notice that you are responsible for it). All Bluff check penalties are cumulative.

The fact that this is a feat annoys me. Why does this have to be a feat? Why couldn't have this been a new thing anyone could do with the Bluff skill, instead of locking it behind a feat prerequisite? It especially annoys me because in my game I was already allowing players to do this kind of thing with the Bluff skill (and will continue to do so) but now that this feat exists the implication is that what I was doing before now goes against RAW.

In a greater sense, my question is why Piazo chooses to go down this path of creating new feats that essentially restrict players from performing actions. Of course Paizo needs to create content, but this could have very easily been presented as a new use for Bluff instead of a feat; where before if a player wanted to do something with a skill (or in general) that wasn't covered by the rules the GM would make a decision, but now it's like, "Oh, so you want to do X action now? Do you have the feat for that?"

Has any developer ever addressed this question?

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Mark Hoover wrote:
Per this player there's only a few "correct" feats to take and everything else is a trap. His example was Power Attack for a fighter. If you're a fighter Power Attack is the "right" feat to take and everything else is either sub-par or a trap.

That's his mindset and there's nothing you can do to fix his dissatisfaction short of getting him to change his mindset. The problem isn't the Pathfinder system either, because he's running up against a reality that's nearly universal to all games: The more strongly you want to optimize toward any one goal, the narrower your choices are going to be.

In your friend's case picking fighter may be what's causing his consternation. For fighters there really are a set of feats (anyone ever play a fighter without weapon specialization) which more or less feel "mandatory", which flies in the face of the initial appearance of the class being the most open ended due to the multitude of feats they get.

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Thanks for the advice guys but at this point I'm more just venting/complaining because the fighter's really not going to take any of your suggestions. He's going to do what he wants to do, and I've now decided I'm not going to go out of my way to keep him alive. It's clear to me his weaknesses are 100% the actions he takes, and not his gear or his build.

@Devilkiller - The plan was for me to find the wizard (he fled in fear after he got feebleminded) and for the sorcerer to group up with the pally, fighter, and multi; we were going to teleport away. Once I went off to look for the wizard, the other four decided to try to kill the dragon because the fighter didn't want to leave. Unfortunately they declined to inform my character of the change of plans so as soon as I found the wizard we teleported back to Sandpoint, my character thinking the rest of the group was already gone or right behind me. The rest of the party didn't leave until the fighter got knocked out (he lived only because of hero points).

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Welp, he almost died tonight due to his own actions. We were in a bad position against a dragon and while we decided to retreat after the wizard got Feebleminded and the paladin got her good bow sundered, he decided he was going to try to go toe-to-toe with the dragon as soon as he could get into melee range. One round of claw-claw-wing-wing-bite-tail and that was that. (Well, he should've died, but used Hero Points to save his life and the GM was being kind as well.) For good measure, he almost got most of the rest of the party killed as well.

Oh, he also decided to spend his money to improve his weapons instead of any defensive items.

Ugh, this party is so disfunctional. My character is seriously considering leaving them.

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I've purchased three of them - one for each set - and am disappointed. The corners of two of the three don't stay connected, so I'm going to have to glue them together or deal with an unusable row.

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The biggest fix I was hoping would come from a 2nd printing was the change to all of the banes that had their BYA powers as before you encounter to the updated paradigm of BYA. Would make evasion a lot less painful.

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As it stands, there's been so many erratas and misprint corrections for RotRl that I feel like I can't play it without having to reference my computer every other minute. Has there ever been any thought about a revised edition that fixes all the cards?

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Mike Selinker wrote:
We decided to patch this ridiculous thing after all.

WHY DO YOU HATE FUN?!?! *cries*

Seriously though, I'm glad you decided to change the scenario and not Kyra's power.

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1. Seelah encounters Khorramzadeh, and Kyra is also at her location. They both fail Khorramzadeh's BYA check and are forced to move. What happens?

2. Feiya and Ranzak are at Sharkskin Reef at the start of Ranzak's turn. When Ranzak encounters his shark, Feiya plays dimension leap in order to move to a different location. What happens to Feiya's shark?

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DM_Blake wrote:

At 13th level, I hope it's more than a +1 Cloak of Resistance - which would, of course, take longer.

Still a great idea.

Or just spend a couple weeks in town with downtime. Maybe the fighter can retrain a feat or two and buy a bit of defensive gear while he waits for an NPC to craft his cloak.

Nope, he has a +1 cloak. Thus far in the game saves haven't really been much of an issue, so I'm not really worried about it. We finally do seem to have some downtime, but the fighter's got all his feats planned out and I really doubt he'd be willing to change them.

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DM_Blake wrote:

There's good advice in this thread, that's already been said, so I'll just answer the thread's title:

Play a fighter. Nobody ever asks them to be the healbot.

After RotRL the GM's going to run Carrion Crown. I've already informed everyone I'll be playing a bloodrager.

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So, I've had a discussion with the other players. The fighter is seriously considering a cloak of lesser displacement, which would be very nice. He'll have to give up his cloak of resistance +1, but we're thinking that could be a worthwhile trade-off.

We also had a discussion on strategy, but the conjurer's player wasn't at the game tonight so we'll have to talk to him later.

Right now my current dilemma is figuring out what I want to spend my money on. I have 30,500 gold to spend, and here are my current magic items:

+1 full plate of light fortification
+2 heavy shield
Belt of Giant Strength +4
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4
Sihedron Medallion
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Pearl of Power (2nd level spell)

Since Barkskin (domain spell) lasts 10 mins/level, I pretty much always have it up for fights. I always have Greater Magic Weapon on my adamantine waraxe, which is why I haven't spent money on a magic weapon. I'm able to also have shield of faith and magic vestments up, which is why I haven't bothered with a ring of protecting or upping my armor. My current considerations are as follows:

1. Lvl 5 pearl of power - would let me recall a 5th level spell, such as teleport or breath of life.

2. Increase my shield up to +5 - would make my AC even higher, but I think it's high enough as is. Most stuff we fight already needs a 20 to hit me if I have my buffs up.

3. Buy my weapon up to +3 - would eliminate the need for me to cast GMW, and would also bypass a lot of DR.

4. Cloak of Lesser Displacement - 20% miss chance to go along with my high AC.

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I've taken 4 characters through RotR, 2 through S&S, 1 through WotR, with several other characters of various progression through them. Don't know where that puts me on the continuum of enthusiastic vs. casual player, but I'm kind of feeling a little relieved for the release push back. I've got a backlog of characters I want to play; in addition to the ones that I've started but not completed playing through, there are characters I want to start (I have't decided if my next character will be Arueshalae or Athnul). I'm excited for the upcoming class decks as I'm sure there are going to be characters I want to play from those decks as well.

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dragonhunterq wrote:

Do you leave spell slots open? It can help with that problem. Not always, as sometimes you need that spell right now, but it can help.

Also stock up on scrolls, potions and maybe a staff or wand if you anticipate using a particular spell a lot. As any kind of spell caster consumables are your very best friend.

I tried leaving slots open, but that never seemed to work. The scroll bit is a good idea; I'll have to think about some useful scrolls to get.

Avh wrote:

If he took the Two weapon warrior archetype, his AC gets a buff each round he makes a full attack. Adding magic armor, a high dex, an amulet of natural armor and either ring of protection or your shield of faith, he should have pretty high AC.

I'm guessing he should have between 30 and 35 AC, without a shield (a two weapon warrior with a shield as its second weapon will be around 35 to 40 AC, without optimization).

I'll have to see what AC gear he has, but I know that yesterday his AC was 28 with haste and his Defensive Flurry bonus. I think his dexterity is either 17 or 18 and I know he's wearing magical mithril breastplate with the light fortitude ability. He's also got a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier.

Nicos wrote:
Eh, as much as that would help with the HPs, for fighters cloak of resistance are mandatory.

Lol, that's a whole 'nother issue all together.

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nicholas storm wrote:

Unless the fighter's DPR is really high - like high enough to one round a glazebru (186HP), then he may be better off using a shield. A fighter that level can easily get to the mid 30s AC with a shield and up to 40AC if he was specced for defense.

An AC40 fighter with a moderate DPR can kill probably 20 glazebru while a AC25 fighter with a high DPR can probably kill 1 glazebru.

Heh, he's a two-weapon warrior, so him using a shield is a non-starter.

As far as the rest of us:

cleric of abadar 8 / holy vindicator 5 dwarf (me)
two-weapon warrior fighter 13 human
red dragon bloodline sorcerer 13 gnome
divine hunter paladin 13 halfling
conjurer wizard 13 half-orc
cleric of cayden calien 3 / ranger 2 / shadowdancer 2 / sky seeker 6 dwarf

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Overall I think there's just a bunch of sub-optimal play within the party. It's weird because when this group played Kingmaker we were a well-oiled machine - so we have the knowledge to play well - just for some reason we make mistakes we didn't make when we played Kingmaker:

- The fighter tends to get himself into dangerous situations and expects to always be bailed out.

- The sorcerer's spell list could be better; he's dragon bloodline and has too many blasting spells, IMO.

- The wizard doesn't communicate well with the other party members. It'd be easier for the rest of us to maximize the effectiveness of our actions if we knew what he was going to do during any round of combat.

- The paladin is a new player, and is still getting the hang of playing a martial character. I think the biggest thing holding her back is that she's too cautious with her smites.

- I always seem to have the wrong spells memorized. 75% of my memorized spells stay the same from day to day, but it's the other 25% that trip me up. The previous session I memorized 2 Breath of Life when I really needed True Seeing, while this session I didn't need True Seeing and could've used the extra Breath of Life.

- The cleric/ranger/shadowdancer/skyseeker is the only PC that almost always makes the right decision in combat.

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@Nigriscence - I'm going to talk to him about it, but I think as a party we're behind on WBL and are limited in what we can afford. I don't know about everyone else, but my total wealth adds up to about 80,000 gold. One thing that made things difficult tonight is that we were fighting a pair of heavy hitters (glabrezus) and he decided to take up a position right between them in order to minimize his need to move. So they tag-teamed him and knocked him unconscious in two rounds.

@nicholas storm - Yep, my AC is pretty healthy; most of the things we fight need a 20 to hit me if I've had a chance to buff up. I take the point as much as possible.

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Azten wrote:
Do you have anyone that could scout things out? Fight smarter and harder with a plan!

Yes, scouting seems to be the weakness of this party; we're constantly fighting battles that are CR +2/+3 for our APL due to our lack of planning. So that's another thing I'll try to figure out how to address. You'd think with a wizard and sorcerer in the party we'd have good ways of scouting, but it just doesn't seem to work out for us (I suspect that if I took some time to analyze their spellcasting I'd find they both tend to favor sexy spells over useful spells.)

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Davor wrote:
Tell that fighter to stop scrubbing up, get in the game, and get off his butt. If they're still having issues, consider getting Aid Another bonuses, and the Bodyguard feat. Invest in means that prevent damage, rather than heal it. There are lots of means of preventing damage, as long as you know what's coming in a fight. Plan accordingly.

I'll try to convince the fighter to save up his money and buy a cloak of lesser displacement. What other things are our there?

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My group just started book 5 of RotRL, and combats are becoming tough to the point where my character, a cleric 8 / holy vindicator 5, is having to spend more and more turns healing [the fighter in particular] just to keep him alive. The damage is just going to go up from here, and there's just no way I'll be able to keep up with it. So I have to conceive of a way for the fighter to take less damage. Ideas?

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Joshua Birk 898 wrote:

Am I missing something? Can't you just use Kyra to on the acrobatics check? The army has both the demon and undead trait, so she can roll her divine check and steam roll the 23.

Alain - Combat
Crowe - Combat
Balazar - Arcane
Shardra - Knowledge
Andowyn - Divine
Kyra - Acrobatcis

Yes, I just double-checked and Kyra's power says "for your check to defeat" not "combat check to defeat".

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Jeraa wrote:

They were priced in 3.5 D&D, which had body slot affinities. Any magical effect that didn't match the appropriate slot had a 1.5x multipler price increase. Helms were not an appropriate item slot for movement-related abilities.

When Paizo copied the 3.5 SRD to make Pathfinder and removed the body slot affinity rules, they didn't go back and make sure the magic items followed their new rules.

I see now, thanks. I wonder if there are any other items like that.

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Why such a difference in price?

Helm of Teleportation costs 73,500
Boots of Teleportation cost 49,000

As far as I can tell, they both work exactly the same. They both are CL 9, and they both allow the user to teleport 3 times per day. Am I missing something, because I can't see why they're priced differently.

Helm of Teleportation wrote:
A character wearing this helm may teleport three times per day, instantly transporting himself and objects he might be carrying on his person to a designated destination, exactly as if he had cast the spell of the same name.
Boots of Teleportation wrote:

When scrutinized closely, parts of these light gray boots appear to fade in and out of existence.

Any character wearing this footwear may teleport three times per day, exactly as if she had cast the teleport spell.

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So I have a dragon, and I need to fill its horde. I've determined it has 76,000 gold worth of magic items, but I'm at a loss of what magic items a dragon would find useful. I'd rather not give it any stat boosters or AC items, so what left is there?

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jones314 wrote:

The thing about larger groups that the designers might not have thought of is that you're more likely to get a wide range of player abilities and familiarity with the game. From my experience, and from reading others' accounts, this game has a lot of those fifth and sixth players being somewhat casual pick-up players. So they pick a character that appeals to them and because we don't want to tell them what to do too much, they sometimes make sub-optimal plays. It's exciting when we mange to eke out a win anyways but its happened a lot where we fail and then the next time we play it, with just the usual players, we hammer through for the win.

So yeah, maybe if you are playing with experienced players the large groups have a better win ratio but not in more typical play conditions. The fact that a whole lot of people can get drawn into a PACG game is an indication of how great the game is and designing scenarios and cards that kinda over-punish large groups is a bummer, imo.

I was going to say this but jones here beat me to it. My regularly scheduled game is 2-3 players, and this group consists of the people most interested in the game. Since we're the most interested and we play the most often, we're the most experienced. When our 5-6 player group gets together, the 5th & 6th persons are a couple of friends who have casual interest in the game and aren't as experienced. For our group at least, that skews the success rate of our 2-3 player games vs. our 5-6 player games.

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So I just got Deck 6 in the mail today and I have a few questions:

The scenario setup for Onslaught on Drezen is as follows:


Villain: none

Henchmen: Abyssal Armies
During this scenario: At the start of the secnario, gain a medal on the troop Champions of Mendev.

When you close any location, shuffle its remaining banes into the location Sanctum, summoning it and building it, if necessary. When you would build the location Sanctum, shuffle the villain Aponavicius into that location deck.

I'm guessing you win the scenario by defeating and cornering Aponavicius, correct? Also, if you close a location and there are no banes in it, do you still build the location, Sanctum?

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Nothing huh? Darn, I was hoping the system was built up by someone.

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chuffster wrote:

Bonus gripe: doesn't it seem odd that it takes a feat slot to swing your weapon really hard? Like, feats are supposed to be these amazing abilities that level the gap between fighters and casters... but it turns out that the best feat is the one where you attack harder. And people who don't have this special training are completely unable to comprehend the concept of sacrificing accuracy for power.

Just picture the training montage where the wise old master drills the youngster in how to do a Power Attack. Pretty short, right?

I agree. They could've mostly avoided this by creating a base combat rule that allowed you to sacrifice accuracy for damage, but just not at the ratio of Power Attack; such as 1 for 1 instead of 1 for 2.

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I'm designing some homebrew races for my campaign but find that the options presented in the ARG aren't as expansive as I'd like. Does anyone know if there are any sources for additional race traits? Of course I can make up my own, but if there are other sources out there I'd like to check those out first. I'm willing to consider 3rd party sources.

(In case there's any confusion, when I say "race traits" I'm referring to all of the components listed in the back of the ARG for constructing custom races.)

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Claxon wrote:
you are looking into how to optimize your character further, you can actually do some math (with estimated values for a potential enemy).

Yeah, this is what I'm looking for; if someone's already performed this math so I don't have to duplicate efforts. =)

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I've read several claims that At high levels PA becomes sub-optimal because the penalty to hit outweighs the additional damage. Since both the penalty and bonus damage scale at the exact same linear rate, that implies it's really the 3rd & 4th iterative that's primarily affected and dragging the overall damage down. What's the math for this? What I'm looking for is a general cutoff in terms of hit percentage on the last two iterative attacks which delineate when to use PA and when not to.

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
They may feel that anecdotally. The math disagrees.

I'm not entirely surprised. What assumptions does the math make?

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Lord Gadigan wrote:

8. Occult Rituals-

I think there's room for interesting expansion here. I like the idea behind special ritual spells with potent/unique effects. There's some mechanical weirdness happening with the success-odds, but I'd still like to see more rituals

This. I've been wishing for a system for ritual spellcasting for as long as 3.x has been around.

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:

In your game you make houserules such as full HP which hurt martials.

You also talk about how martials are far weaker than casters. (moreso than most think)

I would think that the inference is pretty clear.

It wasn't. The only thing I was sharing in my post was my group's experience with playing with max-hp. I said it was interesting because you stated it's a nerf to martials due to SoS/SoD spells while in the game I played [with that change] as a Fey-blooded sorc who specialized in enchantment spells it didn't feel that the martials were nerfed because of it. There were 4 martials in the group, and none of them felt that max-hp was a nerf to them.

So far I've been involved with three campaigns with the max-hp rule; A Kingmaker campaign where I played the aforementioned fey sorc, a RotRl game that's currently near the end of book 4, and the homebrew campaign I'm running where the PCs are level 10. I liked the rule when I was playing in the Kingmaker campaign so I adapted it for my game. (One exception - in my game summoned monsters don't get max hp).

As to how it relates to what I said in the other thread, it's irrelevant. I could understand why you might make that comment if I was complaining that martials were weaker than casters, but since I was expressing the opposite, your reply confused me.

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
You were just on another thread saying how much martials suck & casters rock. (and you like it that way) Think there may be a bit of a correlation?

Correlation between what? Why can't you just state your point clearly instead of replying with snark?

(And seriously? You're going to reference that other thread? What does that other thread have to do with this one?)

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I'm going to have to decide if I want to include this change in my game, since the PC inquisitor uses this spell a lot. If I do decide to change it, I'll let him pick a different spell for the slot if he wants.

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On a personal note, I've mostly totally forgotten that WotR Seoni can draw card after acquiring an ally. I even put a power feat into that ability!

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Lemmy wrote:

They nerfed Litany of Sloth? Why?

Sometimes I think we'd be better off if Paizo never made another errata.

It's a 1st level enchantment (compulsion) spell, so I always thought it strange that it didn't have a save when it was first printed.

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CWheezy wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

So, you cast Litany of Sloth on the Hill Giant and he can make the DC 14-15 save on an 11 or 12. This will negate... One... Exactly one attack of opportunity which would, if it hits, do around 18 damage at best.

Litany of sloth used to be no save, I am pretty sure

That's correct. When Ultimate Combat was originally printed it did not have a save.

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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
From someone familiar with White Wolf and Mage, you are NOT actually answering the question.

I answered it to the best of my ability to explain. It makes sense to me, and since it's my setting, that's all that matters.

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:

The latter is a better idea. Maximize hit points or apply Strength mod to each hit dice as bonus hit points, rather than the measly +whatever constructs get normally. Hell, do both, make the PCs really work to take it down.
I must say - maximizing HP punishes all martials, but not most casters. Save vs death/suck spells don't care about HP.

Interesting. My group plays with max HP for PCs and all monsters & NPCs, and we haven't felt that it marginalizes martials. What we've noticed is that max HP:

1. Marginalizes in-combat healing outside of the heal spell.
2. Nerfs blasters.
3. Makes combat a bit less rocket-taggey.

We do play with a roughly 25 point buy, so that no doubt has an impact as well.

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Ashiel wrote:

Xexyz wrote:
In my setting - which, again, the only setting where I've bothered to think of such distinctions and definitions - the magic of the gods and the magic of mortal spellcasters is fundamentally different. It doesn't matter that a 17th level wizard can cast wish, create demiplane, or whatever other spell. There are differences that, for all intents and purposes, cannot be overcome by your 17th level or 20th level wizard or 50th level wizard (I'm not using Epic Spellcasting from 3.0). Divine casters are even more removed since they get their spells directly from a deity - can't really become a deity when all of your power is directly derived and controlled by one.

So what's the fundamental difference. There actually isn't much difference between a 17th level caster and a 50th level caster in terms of what they can do (because the "quadratic wizard" trope stops at 17th level). You say they are different but fail to explain how. All you've said up until this point is just thrown out random numbers like "CR 130" (which is nutty) or "Cannot be overcome by...50th level wizard".

What is the functional difference. What makes a deity? You haven't actually explained that at all. You've just...

Again: For my setting, the magic the gods use if fundamentally different than the magic mortal spellcasters use. It's capable of things that mortal magic is not. For a reference, if you're familiar with Mage: the Ascension, it's somewhat like the difference between True Magick and Static Magic. If you want more of an explanation than that, go pick up a copy of Mage and read through it.

For a setting agnostic definition, the question is invalid to me because I don't define godhood in an agnostic context.

EDIT: Though again, I have no "issue" with your concepts or your game, nor am I badgering (really, your paranoia needs to take a chill-pill). I'm asking for clarification because I want to understand and at the moment I do not.

I wouldn't call it paranoia, but I feel like you're not debating in good faith. It feels like for as much as you say you want a clarification, you won't accept one that doesn't support some pre-existing notions you have about how the game is should work.

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Ashiel wrote:

So at what point do you think a creature has godlike power (in any setting, really)?

I mean, I'm going by references from reality. Now I don't personally know what a god in your setting is but I am curious as to what defines one and I'd prefer details. Not "more powerful than a wizard" but actual examples of what constitutes as a god.

Your responses have seemed evasive and frankly confusing, especially since you commented that you didn't understand how a wizard could replicate all the acts of god in the bible, then when related dismissed them as rules shenanigans (when only one was rules questionable and another poster quickly clarified that you can just do it by casting the spell the ol' fashioned way) and remarked that wizards just can't do it, then that they could, but gods do it bigger. It seems very erratic.

Because for me, if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck for all meaningful purposes. So when I see something that would be described as a god in our reality that looks like a god to me. When it does all of the things that actual gods in our lore are proclaimed to do by virtue of their godhood, that seems pretty godly to me.

Hence, again, how much more godly do you have to be to be appropriate godly? What sort of bar is raised that even our own gods of legend cannot reach, and if they cannot reach them, are you even talking about a god or something that hasn't been defined yet?

I appear to be approaching the question from a totally different point of view than you. You're comparing what a 17th level wizard can do to what miracles are described in the Bible, whereas I'm not making any comparison between the game and real life. I mean, based on your definition even a 5th level wizard might be considered godlike - after all, such a person can conjure lighting and fire, fly, disappear from sight, understand any form of communication, read minds, etc.

Making comparisons to the Bible doesn't work for me when determining what constitutes a god and what doesn't in Pathfinder - at least in my homebrew setting, which is really the only one I care about. You ask what I think constitutes godlike power for any setting, but to me the question is nonsensical. Every game that is played exists in someone's setting, whether homebrew or some other published setting, and the nature of those settings will determine what is godlike and what isn't. Trying to declare some universal that applies to any or all of them seems pointless.

In my setting - which, again, the only setting where I've bothered to think of such distinctions and definitions - the magic of the gods and the magic of mortal spellcasters is fundamentally different. It doesn't matter that a 17th level wizard can cast wish, create demiplane, or whatever other spell. There are differences that, for all intents and purposes, cannot be overcome by your 17th level or 20th level wizard or 50th level wizard (I'm not using Epic Spellcasting from 3.0). Divine casters are even more removed since they get their spells directly from a deity - can't really become a deity when all of your power is directly derived and controlled by one.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than this. If you still don't understand where I'm coming from, I don't think you ever will.

Edit: Also, what kyrt-ryder said in his most recent post.

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Ashiel wrote:

Well I try not to be that person who's always jumpin' in going "Hey, you want E6" or whatever but we're talking a leveled RPG system here. Levels are a representation of power on a scale that goes from normal dude (3 hp commoner) to stand-in for god (a solar that can literally not be killed except by destroying them with incredibly strong magical weapons and spells keyed to the energy diametrically opposed to its very existence, who can perform miracles casually, who can raise the dead, heal the sick, avert a comet, etc).

I don't see a need to continue inching the godly section of the scale ever higher to try and pretend that those climbing it are still just mortals, anymore than I see a need to try and make a CR 1/3 orc a relevant fear for a party of 8th level PCs. It's fighting against the power scales.

I also, still, do not get how one becomes more godly than godly. There comes a point where the only next reasonable step is narrative control over everything which doesn't work very well in a fantasy setting (especially one with multiple deities) and relegates them to either obscenely boring or so distant as to not exist at all (making them more of a legend but having no actual function).

If you don't want things to scale past a certain point, that's fine. E-whatever helps a lot in that regard. I just don't see the point in trying to stretch the scale ever onward with no real explanation as to what constitutes as "god+".

It's not just about power levels though, at least the way I'm defining such things in my game. Just like being able to fly doesn't make one a bird, being able to all the stuff 17th level wizards can do doesn't make one a god [in my setting].

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Ashiel wrote:

Well, I consider godly things to be godly. Like, we have things like lava in reality, we have lava in Pathfinder. I can see lava deals Xd6 fire damage, ergo when I see an ancient red wyrm breath a hotter breath weapon I can certainly say "Holy crap! That wyrm's breath is hotter than lava!"

When we have accounts of gods in reality and then I see creatures rivaling or meeting them pound for pound in Pathfinder, I can say "wow, that's a godlike creature".

So my question is, when we have accounts of godly things to compare to, how much godly does something have to be before it qualifies as a god? I don't think that the question is hard to comprehend or silly at all.

How much of an immortal miracle working being do you have to be before you can be considered a god?

Are you asking in abstract or are you asking as it pertains to my setting? I can answer the latter, but not the former.

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kyrt-ryder wrote:

Heh, that's part of what I meant by characters of 17th level and above becoming deities.

They can attract worshipers whose faith in them allows them to work divine magic.

You sidestepped your own setting quirks, but I'll provide one of mine. The gods don't grant magic in my games, Faith grants magic, the gods are just icons of sufficient power and glory so as to generate divine magic in their faithful. Except spellcasting after reaching 17th level those are borne out of the caster's own divinity of course.

It's the same reason some clerics [and pretty much all Druids] cast divine magic without worshiping a god at all. Because it isn't god-granted-magic, it's simply divine in nature.

EDIT: for further detail, characters level 13-16 are classified as Demi-gods and members of their cults can receive up to 4th level spells.

My setting has the opposite premise but has the same logical consequenses. In my setting, faith and belief in the gods grants you spells; There are (almost) no divine casters which derive their spells from anything other than the gods. Furthermore, the magic the gods use is fundamentally different from the magic they grant and the magic all mortal spellcasters use.

The single exception are some druids. In my game druids are very rare, and even among their numbers many worship the Llynnain, the Goddess of Nature. The ones who don't [worship Llynnain] worship the Beast Gods, which were the pantheon of gods which reigned before the current pantheon drove them from power. Because of this most druids, if discovered, are hunted down and killed by the agents of several of the evil gods.

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Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Sure, perfect balance is probably impossible without everything being the same. That doesn't mean you stop trying to balance things period. Are you really saying that no time should be spent making sure that Alice, the person who can summon a monster with CR equal to her level every battle should be balanced with Bob, the guy who knows which end of the sword goes in the enemy (the pointy one)?

No, of course not. But I'm really tired of the way people around here talk as if perfect balance is simple and easy and the only reason we don't have it is because those dastardly writers on the development team are villainously keeping it from us because reasons.

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Milo v3 wrote:
That's completely arbitary though....

Of course it's arbitrary; it can't really be anything but arbitrary.

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kyrt-ryder wrote:

EDIT: although... I am curious now that I think about it.

Why exactly do you want the gods to be so powerful? Do you want to keep them in the background out of the player's sphere of influence?

[Personally speaking I LIKE my players either joining or dethroning (or at least 'lone-wolfing' it with occasional interactions as equals) the gods at the end of the rare campaign that reaches level 17-20, but that's just me.]

I'm going to leave out the particulars of my homebrew world since I don't think they're especially relevant. But after thinking about it, the reason seems self-evident to me. In every version of D&D, the gods grant spells. The gods can grant spells to hundreds - if not thousands - of worshippers every day without so much as a second thought. The implication of this seems to then be that the gods are enormously powerful. So it seems reasonable to imagine the gods performing feats of magic that are the equivalent of casting a thousand miracles all at once; or a powerful earthquake spell that affects an entire country, etc.

(I know there's a power in the Mythic Adventures book that allows a PC with mythic tiers to grant spells, but I haven't incorporated much mythic content into my game, and in any event that power would not be available to any mythic character.)

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