|Xeriar Goblin Squad Member|
GW are still finalising the Kickstarter details. End of March is the date we should receive an email is my understanding.
Yeah, thanks. I apparently misread someone's post, I guess it referred to the upgrade option available in the first Kickstarter.
I participated in both Kickstarters, got the first one. Have had no similar notice regarding the second one despite seeing people talk about it - I am somewhat annoyed especially considering the amount.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
At a differing number of inches from the screen depending on the device, for someone with 20/20 vision, and only for gentle curves on solid shapes. For someone who holds the device closer, has better than normal reading vision (I'm 20/10, myself), or is viewing something with a lot of sharp angles (like say... text), the claim breaks down. As a simple test just load up a simple image with horizontal black and white lines and see how far away you are able to tell the result from a medium gray image.
It's just another marketing gimmick. I'll be amused if we see a 'Retina II' name. "This time we mean it, really!"
Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Xeriar - it will be interesting to see how people engage in social organization in those early months, that 's for sure.
A community is pretty strongly defined by its 100 most committed members.
Who do you want those people to be?
I do not mean their names, but rather their deeds, goals, etc.
I suspect this is another feature of authenticators that Ryan likes.
No way to get into someone's account without them being physically present means that this sort of verification won't be possible.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
It will be largely feature complete code, and there will be alpha and beta tests that proceed the start of the live game, so I think only the stubborn and the malicious will call it either.
Key being that it's launching sans one of your most tauted features (player settlements).
Ideally, it's a scale up phase, and you could call it that. Though I'm not sure why you'd want beta phases with less than 10k or so people. What do you actually gain by doing this rather than adding seven months to your beta phase, and charging for beta access? Certainly not new, and GW2 seriously suffers from a lack of a large-scale, extended public beta.
You get the potential (but not guarantee) for slightly more revenue at the end of those seven months, as opposed to getting most of that money right away. You risk a more disastrous reaction if something bad happens because of higher levels of concurrency, and you are confusing people to the point where even you aren't sure what to call this phase.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
I thought about this, but players are also putting up ridiculous buffs.
It'd be one thing if there's a certain degree of grace for commands. What the hell are they letting people throw up perma-invulnerability for?
Basically, someone in wvw flew over the castle walls, invulnerable, and stole the orb for their server.
More typically, we see small-level speedhacks, force-logging, and the occasional micro-teleport, or fake-downed invulnerable buff (though this can happen innocently, had it happen to me once, and given my kill ratio it might be why). There aren't a lot of cheaters, and it seems like most know better than to make themselves obvious, but it's quite annoying to both have to deal with it and not have a feasible means of reporting them.
This isn't a fully either-or problem, and if you go this route, you can also log checkpoints.
Or log everything sent by the client, and do reviews.
In a game billed as Guild Wars, no less.
Hanz McBattle wrote:
That's the biggest mistake you saw in GW2? The "races" section on their site is like an rpg mistake museum.
...I hope you're joking.
An alternate view is to have the client's commands simply be sent to the server, rather than declaring the toon's current state, though that's being somewhat pedantic. GW2 has basically locked itself into 'must verify' at this point.
Set gamma to maximum. Done. Most game clients themselves support this, and it's an easy way to 'cheat' in the darkness jumping puzzles in GW2 and in places like Rainbow in the Dark in DDO.
Trusting the client.
This is freaking 2012. It's annoying enough seeing bots in PvE teleport around the map. Absolutely infuriating to see low-level speedhacks and teleporation hacks in WvW, much less the 'superman' incidents.
I don't know what else to say, really. We learned this like, a decade and a half ago. "Though shalt not trust the client." Almost like "2+2=4", except apparently it needs to be explicitly demanded, for some reason which I cannot fathom.
So count me in as demanding it.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
I can't think of any reason we'd have a filter. We don't intend to be ESRB/PEGI certified, and that is the only reason I could see bothering to implement one.
It's useful as a stopgap spam filtering measure. GW2 is certainly lacking for its absence.
And I run the world's largest ERP forum. Google 'role playing forum' and you'll see. E is also 45% female, and I'm proud of how much it gets gushed over as feeling safe. We still work to improve it.
If you've used nothing but clear, hard rules, I can't imagine that you've managed a community of any significant combined size and average member involvement. Where more than about three-four hundred commit more than two hours a day each to said community. There's a sort of 'glass ceiling' many communities have, and breaking it is difficult without some external impetus.
E tried the 'clear rules' route.
The people who memorized them were the worst.
Sociopaths and their ilk would obey them to the letter, and use them as a relentless beat stick against anyone they didn't like who crossed the line on 'their' forum. "You've violated rule x." "That's against rule y."
And the rules list just became more and more intimidating. One member in particular became an expert in the rules we wrote, and basically devoted their life to managing the social aspect of my forum. De facto forum royalty. Even was telling people they did not like to leave. The 'monkey sphere' effect was extremely pronounced - they choked my forum to almost exactly 150 active members. I let this go on for two years. I'm still ashamed of that.
Even with the ridiculously long list of specific rules, members felt harassed, and that there was selective enforcement anyway. Vagueness in the rules has nothing whatsoever to how you're going to get treated as a large community leader, there's always going to be a communications breakdown somewhere.
Simply put, you're dealing with thousands of people, and a much more finite mod staff. And then there are the [insert expletive of choice here] time vampires who decide to latch on to a particular staff member or two and do everything in their virtual Internet power to suck all of that poor person's free time away. And then complain about not getting enough attention.
Eventually, as often happens when you're a de facto member of a rather exclusive club, I met a few other large community owners and we traded knowledge. Fewer rules - with some specifics, but also a few vague ones - has led to a much closer, larger, more vibrant and friendlier community.
There are going to be differences in enforcement, no matter which path is chosen. GW is going to be attacked for it either way, and this may or may not be legitimate, either way. There's no magic button that says "Clear rules means no mod abuse."
Hell, you can see what for us is the second most important rule as the most important rule here, below every post submission form. "Don't be a jerk." And, despite its vagueness, you still made a post.
Hopefully, GW will keep it to the level of "It's because we're human." and not "Abuse." The blade of vagueness swings both ways - and we're going to have to judge that as the game progresses. If there are a lot of lopsided bans, word will get out, the community will go toxic no matter what they try, and PFO will go the way of many other MMOs whose resultant community did it no favors.
I don't think Ryan will achieve his stated goals via the stated methods, but a limited degree of vagueness is not in and of itself the problem. It's acknowledging nature.
And your telling me thousands of game copies of 60$ or more plus the eventual expansions plus add on content further then that won't cover all that, the cost of making the game, and paying the people that make it?
What, exactly, do you think maintaining a MMO with a staff of sixty costs?
8 developers are working on the tech demo. This group doesn't include Ryan as far as I understand it - he's on the fundraising/promotion/etc team. Their goal was to have the tech demo finished come mid-September, at which point they'll make most of the additional hires to work on the main program.
Sounds painful. Maybe they should watch where they're going.
The web systems manager seems kind of an oddball position. Rather than hire a full-time web developer, you just want someone with connections?
To a degree. I don't want to have multiple characters and have to pay a continuous monthly upkeep or lose them, for example. If I spend $10 or whatever it is for an additional alt on an account, and for whatever reason I decide/have to stop playing for a year, if I couldn't just hop back in... I wouldn't.
The same goes for a lot of convenience upgrades, IMO.
Ignore the player division for a moment. $25-$35 for a server.
*looks at his server bill*
I've been toying with the idea of running an MMORPG where people could pay for their own instanced servers themselves. While I'd obviously be providing on something of a far smaller scale than Pathfinder Online (at least in terms of big-ticket items like bandwidth consumption, disk usage, power usage, and support), I always feel that this sort of perspective is what ultimately makes it impractical.
I pay $400 a month for my two servers. I'm only paying that because I dropped $3k up front and administrate them personally.
I think a more straightforward solution would be to require merit badges to either activate certain magical effects, use multiple magic items at once, or both.
I think a character with one powerful magic item should be able to expect similar versatility to a gadgeteer (as most D&D characters are these days), as a separate sort of development path.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
I'm fine with this insofar as 'people who contribute to the game' should have such proportional rewards in general.
I've found that honestly, people care less about balance than they do about socializing and having fun. Games like DDO shoot themselves in the foot over forgetting why people play MMOs in the first place.
I recall seeing in a post or blog post somewhere that in order to avoid alignment shifting, hostilities had to be mutually declared.
However, there were no implied limits on being able to attack people I think.
One of my personal pet peeves about D&D and its derivatives in general is just how much equipment defines you.
If PFO replaced that nonsense with merit badges, I would not shed a tear.
Well, insofar as I'd be happy to join alliances that took care of nations/settlements/settlements that failed to revoke the charter of griefers.
I'd probably have some clear lines as to what qualifies, though.
White knights very often are after a prize. Rather than doing good for the sake of good, they're out to try and impress someone with their antics, on the one in a million chance they'll get some(thing) in return.
But yeah, it's bad enough to see Chaotic Neutral types going 'I was just playing my alignment!', we're going to see 'But I'm Lawful Good! Even my conduct says so!'
Because people will be able to stay within the bounds of conduct while managing to be epic jerks.
If this nation forms, though, individuals will probably get left for individual chartered companies to handle, individually.
I can really only go from my experience in Age of Conan when looking at FFA gaming. I played DFO but joined the game too late and didn't last long with their latency. Even though AoC was a themepark game it was amazing when looking into the fishbowl to see the player made factions, griefers, gankers, roleplayers, solo-pvers and white-knights mixed together. Some of the most skilled PvPers in that game were roleplayers and probably more ruthless when it came to retribution griefing.
I think anyone who actually has their eyes set on running a nation with a chance at achieving that goal is going to be a bit ruthless. Not necessarily evil, but I don't think any of the LN organizations are going to spare someone's watchtower in territory they otherwise dominate just because 'someone else put it up first'.
Which is actually what I'm afraid the initial bout of griefing will be - people putting up watchtowers and forts freaking everywhere, crying foul/victim, enjoying the shift of their targets to evil alignment, or both.
Screw that, I'll take the alignment hit. And do it for others, too, for a price. If our George is having problems with similar people, well, happy to help.
GW might have an initial grace period here, or something (i.e. declare that making/owning/defending a building on a hex you don't have a settlement on is not an innocent act), but they can still play victim, and addressing that annoyance in game might be plenty fun.
Given the mention of being able to make 24-hour skill training purchases, and Ryan's statement about how early skill training will be vastly more effective than what comes later on, I'm thinking that they'll only need to handle individual IP blocks insofar as they vet them for serious abuse.
1) It's quite possible that the ability to do anything related to griefing - building buildings, attacking or stealing from a person - might require some small amount of skill training.
2) Combined with the above, it'd be easy to see if resources from one account were continually flowing to another. The game could keep tallies and judge the fairness of exchanges, especially those coming from low-resource accounts, or going to high-resource ones.
I think the priority list for most major groups is going to be
1) Get rid of the griefers
'Having fun' will probably vary between first, fourth, and 'one of these three IS my fun!'.
I wouldn't be surprised if an effective game-wide alliance forms for the first. But what constitutes griefing is going to be in the eye of the beholder. Not all organizations are going to agree.
Still, may put some hard thought into the concept of 'legitimate' cassus belli. Would be neat if the game had mechanisms for such.
Sometimes those are done through a public facing vulnerability of some sort (e.g. most famously recently, memcached instances of popular major websites were nor fire walled and thus accessible from anywhere.)
More often though, some employee or such gets tricked or actively sabotages the company from the inside. You hear about this a lot less.
I would not want to be known as the first mmorpg that pushed a compromised client through the update pipe, personally.
E-mail addresses have value. So does the code base itself (see Ragnorok Online and the leak of AEGIS).
Only for those attack surfaces that having an account in and of itself exposes, and then only for 'noisy' attacks.
Pathfinder Online's attack surface, like any service running on the Internet, will be larger than what you see inside an account. Most typically, it's an employee that gets compromised these days, so the actual attack goes through someone's fan site or some other highly targeted medium e.g. spear phishing.
Security is a process, not a checklist. You have a certain set of services to provide, and you work out how to minimize the impact of a compromised interior system, while still allowing work to be done in a reasonable timeframe. Security that people break to make things work isn't, after all.
As for your question about the impact of f2p on culture, I imagine the first few 4500 or whatever size batches they pick are going to have a major impact, and they are probably well aware of this. I wouldn't do it any other way for just that reason, though numbers might be different.
Undeath is a state of being. The issue of undead rights transcends the boundaries of race, gender, species and gender identity.
Anem Vora will be a proud supporter of necromantic rites.
Patrick Curtin wrote:
My main concern would be, after the map has settled, what happens when someone who has joined you tries to use you as a shield?
'Let's offer this group amnesty' needs to have some sort of internal policing, and a response for that sort of situation.
I'm getting this image of a guy standing around in the settlement shouting at every newbie or suspected newbie he can see. "HAY GOOD PEOPLE! WE HAVE SPIES TOO! AND SMUGGLING! AND OTHER SERVICES, COME CHECK US OUT! THESE PEOPLE ARE -EVIL-!"
We could call him George.
And we could ask him "But do you have a George?"
Will you have a George?
Why would we bar any law-abiding citizen from our services? That would be rude. : (
Anyway welcome to PFO. I won't wish you well in your endeavors but I look forward to crossing swords.
Game won't be out for at least a year and already we have threats of violence.
Such oppression we suffer. : (
I'm sure the Goons and groups like Ryan describes will show up, but this is meant to be a more 'open' order.
The sort of thing that new players can get involved with, partaking in dastardly deeds without feeling like they are just ruining people's fun. Sometimes we'll even provide a helping hand.
Straight from the heart.
You're really hung up on the word 'physics'.
Fine. Call it a buff.
If you have complaints about the player nation, you should take it to that thread. I was originally planning on another "lawful neutral" order but people were complaining about there being no proposed serious villains.
So fine. I'll be your bad guy. You seem to want something you can hate.
@Xeriar; I'm not sure I fully follow your response... My comments on the topic have indicated a firm understanding of the technical challenges, middleware or no. As I stated already, I know its highly unlikely GW will be able to implement the environmental changes as described, but that it would be a fun "pie in the sky" idea. As to data models and regional equations... you flat lost me.
It's a way to implement said 'pie in the sky' idea on large scales (those of PFO's proposed on up) without requiring ridiculous computational capacity in order to have a full dynamic range of possible 'environmental' effects.
Edit: and the resolution could be as graphically detailed as your end-user's computers can put up with. It wouldn't be blockland.
Are you familiar with how games like Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress generate their terrain? Like that, except that you wouldn't be able to arbitrarily make changes. The server instead simply knows that such and such a region is dominated by such and such equations, and only needs to care when there are active players in said region. The players would influence the world by (effectively) altering the local equations. So a small region gets intensely fought over, the various global parameters have their weights reduced in a region, and the local parameters become those representing devastated terrain.
Are you down?
Worried that when the armies of 'righteousness' gather, that there will be none to spit into their smug pretend face, matching them soldier for soldier?
Sure, we have a few organizations that are 'lawful neutral', but so far only a perfectly LEGitamate BREAdmaKING business is willing to do what is necessary to truly make the world a better place.
It's a big place, the world, full of simple people who think that it is all black and white.
They think such a thing as 'innocence' can exist.
They think that, when it comes to making the hard decisions necessary for rulership, that they are prepared.
They never expect to have to choose between what is best for those they claim to love, and what is best for their nation.
I have a name picked out - Anem Vora - but I am just gauging interest for now.
If you are familiar with the Scorpion Clan in Legend of the Five Rings, and how they are supposed to behave - then you have a pretty good idea of what I am looking for.
For those not familiar, the Scorpion prize loyalty above all else, and have no shame in doing what it takes to fulfill their goals. The Clan of Secrets and of Lies, they are also the most honest. They wear their masks publicly, for all to see, and if you have a problem, they are very happy to help.
They of course expect returns on such favors. They make valuable friends.
As for who I am, I run two of the most active play-by-post forums in the world. The biggest one is often just called 'E' and though I can't link it here, if you put 'roleplaying forum' into Google it shows in second place.
No, this won't be an 'adult' organization. But any members I bring to the table will be adults, experienced roleplayers and good writers. Regardless, I'm not in this alone, and I am very familiar with running large virtual communities.
This would be more than just a chartered company - it would be an actual attempt at creating a player nation. Wherein we play the villains. The Evil Empire complete with spies, assassins, and dreams of world conquest. All for the best interest of its future subjects, of course.
If there is interest, I will start fleshing out the structure more.
You seem to be equating emergence with difficulty, for some reason. Emergence is GoblinWork's primary goal, here - they want to see virtual societies establish themselves, grow, evolve. Emergence is why they can hope to get away with a ~5M budget instead of a ~50M one.
Emergence from my idea comes from basic actions, and the modifiers they apply, to you as an individual. You can take these actions on your own. Mechanically, to the server, they are nothing but buffs. You are essentially arguing that buffs are too difficult for either GW or the server to handle.
Right now, my current major project is a web development platform, and I have the wonderful support of my community members to enable my independent development. My dev time is, for now, theirs.
If no one takes my fractal terrain idea in a few years I might run with that. Potential for much awesome.
Ideas are easy, however. 'Can you implement it?' is the billion dollar question.
Where did I call Ryan stupid? I called the chosen implementation lame, but having posted on various electronic media around him for what is probably fifteen years or so now, I don't think I've ever called him stupid. I don't recall any interaction outside of Paizo here, but there might be something.
I called an idea as presented lame. Equating people with ideas is not a good practice.
As for this thread, this is just a concern - like I'd be playing on a glorified Go board of some sort. Ryan says they'll control the density, and we'll see how that goes and looks, but it's one of those things - you can't just start taking away forts when it starts looking silly.
As for my idea in response to Gruffling, GoblinWorks hasn't revealed their middleware yet, and there are no plans for us to be able to directly influence the world. They very well could try to implement such a system. However, it would be an untested concept to implement in an MMO (as far as I know anyway), and require a considerable deal of development time for it in and of itself rather than actually building on a known code base.
On top of the core flaw with my idea as I presented it - you don't have control over the small details without actually dropping the influence of those equations over the appropriate region and reverting to 'standard' data representation (after a fashion).
You do realize that my post had nothing to do with GW's immediate intentions, right?
It was me trying to figure out how you could efficiently represent a dynamic world, at scale, into the million+ square mile range.
It's like you are taking personal offense to my every post or something. : /
One idea I was thinking of when considering PFO's proposed size - how could you hope to represent a full-scale world?
Tracking each individual tree and vertex would be maddening.
You could, however, store the world as a set of seeds which would have varying degrees of strength in an area. So rather than storing a tree, the server stores the regional and local seeds, and their respective strengths. The latter's nature, and the farmer's dominance, could vary based on buildup, war, active planting - whatever.
Unfortunately my current project is going to dominate my life for the next few years, so I don't have the time to crack open Electro server or some solution and try this.
The main flaw is that direct involvement with the world would have to be limited. You can't actually pick a single tree to cut down, for example.
If a tree falls in the forest, no one is ever around.
You are either holding your shield above your head, in front, or to a side. The game would have to have the same understanding of the concept of an attack from above in both implementations. Difference being, a lone character could still run around with a shield over her head on her own and still get some benefit if there is some nasty weather, so to speak.
No, in order to differentiate tetsudo from shield wall, the game also needs to have the concept of an elevated attack angle. Similarly, many siege formations will have shields overhead, but these might also drop protection from certain angles for various reasons.
Essentially, Ryan's proposal has to me what is commonly called a 'code smell' in programming circles. Rather than add the basic physics to make formations an emergent feature, the proposal is to do each one, individually.
They then waste time designing and balancing each one, cluttering up the UI, rather than adding more genuine features.
Overgeneralization is its own code smell, of course, but in a general sense, when building a complex system, lists need to be justified.
Example: What is the justification for the archetype list?
The answer: It's called Pathfinder Online, the class divisions are part of its essential flavor.
A set list of formations has no such pedigree.
@Xeriar: how would your system slow down a line's movement speed, or allow a turtle formation to even exist? I can imagine a magical or extraordinary shield formation breaking catapult, ballista, or even cannonball fire. Modern artillery, somewhat less so, but modern artillery rewrote all the rules of battle when it was introduced.
In normal movement, it'd happen naturally, especially if line cohesion was automated - each individual soldier has to account for differences in terrain, etc. In fast movement the software would have to check the width of the unit trying to move as a cohesive group.
Tetsudo would be a function of being able to put your shield over your head and elevating facing (forward would be 0-60 degrees, looking up 60-120, etc). Holding a shield in formation and heavier shields might also reduce movement speed on their own.
It would primarily be for dealing with levitating attackers and those who fired in volleys. I don't have an issue with them being effective against canons and magical attacks in some situations. Shields not necessarily a prerequisite, 7th Sea's Iron Meg story was pretty cool (though that's probably into the Legendary spectrum that this game won't be covering).
A hex is half a square mile. A historical county would be a few hundred hexes. On the small end. York and historic Toulouse would tip scales around ten thousand. The Roman and Han empires dwarf these constructs.
Player nations are not the prime or even secondary or tertiary focus. If they were, we'd see some scale for land to mitigate the raw size of actual player empires.
Truly gathering something that could form an empire would not be a merit badge just anyone could earn. Some concept restricting the number of actual legendary (11-20) characters would need to exist in order to make them suitably special, and it would be a very contentious issue, though probably not an impossible one.
Well, all requiring control of all surrounding hexes for a settlement does is reduce the maximum number of settlements in the initial allotment to about 30-35.
I'm not entirely sure that would be a bad thing - fewer settlements means more forced interaction. 300 people to a digital community is a pretty good ballpark where such groups become self-sustaining, though unless they break that glass ceiling mismanagement can still wreck them. So, as a ballpark, GW could try for one 256-hex block per ~12k active members, ensuring that each settlement has a pretty active community - or gets taken over.
The 'flyover country' is that much bigger for people who want a hiding spot. There also would be inevitable 'holes' of lesser control where hideouts and such could persist, despite efforts to deal with them, for a long time in major nations, even though they would nominally be part of said nation's 'territory'.