To be clear, I pretended to be the GM so that I didn’t seem like I was just throwing my GM under the bus and in an obligatory “my GM made this “ruling and I don’t like it” post. Also, in my discord conversation with the GM it was never actually made clear to me that I would be permitted to craft the item in question.
Literally last comment from me in our direct chat, from last Monday...
I was interested to read of carbauxine gas; that’s the first time I’ve ever heard of it. The only references to it I can find are in the first book of the Second Darkness AP and Into the Darklands. Both of which are at little vague as to whether carbauxine is the only way to forge skymetals or simply a way. SD Book 1 is explicit that the carbauxine-fueled forges in Riddleport are the only place in Varisia “capable of smelting adamantine and other high-hardness metals.” Which, in addition to implying that there are places in other lands to smelt them, still leaves an open question - smelting and forging are two different activities. Blast furnaces for smelting iron ore, for example, run at much higher temperatures than is required for working the pig iron produced. It could be that the ingots require carbauxine but forging does not.
It is also mentioned in Iron Gods that the main reason people flock to Torch is the forge there that is able to make skymetals workable, because of how hot it burns. (Spoiler warning, it's a starship engine exhaust.) And honestly aside from mithral being lumped into that but about carbauxine gas I would normally think it's basically the same as working silver. But, yes, there are of course forges capable of doing so. The secret of getting things hot enough apparently was discovered by the dwarves, which doesn't completely track as there are a few things created before Quest for Sky that are man made that are made of skymetals. One could argue that the Gas Forges in Riddleport were used for that but who knows. Singing steel, an alloy developed by the elves of Jinin who passed through miles of underground tunnels to arrive at the "foot" of a massive vein of mithral and who likely dealt with the dwarves at least a bit while down there... makes sense to me that they'd have found a way to use the carbauxine they came across to fuel their forges, or got the know how from the dwarves.
As far as things in this Kingmaker campaign goes, all they have to do is have an exotic artisan or two and that opens up a fair bit. As would a foreign quarter and a good marketing campaign towards people from areas they want influence from.
There are also certain items, and character options, that have come out in books such as Magical Marketplaces, or the Faction Guide that are only technically supposed to become available under certain conditions. One of the main issues of just using things like the srd and aonprd, they don't tell you those things there. So, invariably people just assume that everything they come across is just fair game, and then get upset when a material they come across is rarer than they'd like. Or requires something specific to be worked in the first place, whether it be a special forge or a specific recipe for an alloy or, honestly, whatever. I mean, most skymetals are rare, and I mean, really rare. They literally are tiny chunks of rocks that fell from space. Most of that rock is going to be just rock. It's supposed to be hard, outside of very specific places to find fragments of the metals to work with in the first place.
If an option being available means dealing with a specific market or guild/faction/etc. to gain access, then that means dealing with that market/guild/faction/etc., or at least a similar version within your setting if your GM chooses to use the material/option rule [b]at all/b][. I think most people can agree on that.
Obviously, this all depends on the setting. But when using any pre-existing setting, lore and a certain degree of realism matter. If some people want to beer and pretzels it and hand waive those things, that's their prerogative. If the GM running the game doesn't, the players don't just get to choose to. It really is that simple, and a GM saying "no" or "well this is how I'm doing it" is a reality all players have to deal with or move on from.
I guess that's a fair opinion, but it's the generally agreed upon way the game works. Pathfinder has a lot of automatic information that is a bit odd. Take a level of fighter? Learn how to use dozens upon dozens of martial weapons. Learn about dragons with knowledge(arcana)? Then you automatically know all about constructs too. Learn to speak a language? Then you automatically know how to write in that language too. Heck, if you learned the language with linguistics, then you just automatically got better at forging documents too.
So, learning how to craft a specific magic weapon from taking a feat isn't very odd at all in Pathfinder.
Only because more recent editions of D&D had cut out the fact that you went on an adventure, got the experience to level up and then had a month or more break between adventures where your character actually did all the things that were part of leveling up. Same goes with "taking a level in fighter", multiclassing used to be very different. I'm not saying everything needs to work like it did in older editions, but at the same time, there is a certain amount of realism that should be upheld if possible.
You know you plan to take a rank in Linguistics? Make it known that your character has been studying whatever language you plan to take during downtime at camp or whatever. Same can go with weapon training. It's almost like they kinda realized there was an issue with things "just happening" when they decided to have retraining take both time and money (usually with a proper trainer) to learn how to do the new thing you're trying to do.
Just because (some) people choose to just gloss over the day to day things like eating and such don't mean that they just stop existing.
That said, you're way over simplifying it. I said learn how to make every magic item under that feat's blanket. Some would even argue learning how to make things that are specifically pointed out in the book they came out in as being created by a random hag on an isolated island in the middle of the ocean is okay, because "well, I have the feat". Or that player characters should be able to craft Ioun/Aeon Stones even though the knowledge on how to do so has been lost since pre-Earthfall, and even the ones who now the most about them (the Pathfinder Society) have barely scratched the surface on how... because, again, "I have the feat".
And I feel like I should point out that the creater of this thread is actually the bard in question and pretending to be the GM of the game he is part of, the aforementioned Kingmaker campaign. I'm sure he was just trying to avoid a bunch of "ask your GM" responses.
The reason he keeps bringing up a check to know about the item and all that is due to the fact that I, the actual GM, think that's it's completely ridiculous that as soon as someone takes a crafting feat that they automatically know how to create every single magic item in existence that falls under that feat's blanket.
As far as the special forge goes, carbauxine gas is required to get forges hot enough to smelt mithral and skymetals.
Considering I had already told him I didn't mind just going ahead and crafting the stupid weapon, I'm not sure exactly what the reason for the thread was. That said, he doesn't plan to actually use the glaive, just have it near him, because all he cares about is that sacred bonus. Not the weapon itself, not the lore behind it, definitely not the connection to Shelyn as his character is an atheist (only as a way to be completely fine with another party member creating soul gems with him present); just the mechanical benefit derived from having it near him.
I really wish people would stop sticking Orc on the name of that weapon. Had a player try and act like his Half-orc Bloodrager was proficient with the thing and kept calling it that, even though it is very clearly just called a Butchering Axe.
Yes, it was made by the orcs of Belkzen. No, it is not used by every fricking orc in the Hold. Racial weapon proficiency does not apply.
That said, in line with the thread: I haven't really outright banned anything (leadership has been teetering on that edge). But a fair few of my players are still miffed that racial/deity specific spells are actually being kept as racial/deity specific. And, obviously, you can't just take campaign traits willy-nilly.
Hope my informed by non-canon answers help! Thank you for asking! :)
Very much so actually. It's always nice to have insight into the author's mind about how a creature behaves, and a slight rule tweak or two on my end to bring it a bit more in line to that won't hurt.
Another point to consider is does the soul gem stay around after the Cacodaemon disappears? From what I understand the gear of a summoned creature does not remain once the summoned creature disappears.
This is one of the things that I originally brought up.
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
nothing ever says it can disobey you. it says you can direct it to do other actions.
what other spell disobeys you when you cast? does fireball not explode? lighningbolt doesnt go in a straight line?
it does exactly what it says it does, which is attack, or perform other action if you can comunicate.
its not cast "let DM screw with player"
Clearly you missed the part about the author/creator of the book these things debuted in, their literal creater, saying that it is possible that daemons leaked spells to mortals to summon them that gives little to any control. The spell says you can direct the creature summoned to do something. It does not say it is compelled to do so, and one could argue that an intelligent being can still make its own choices.
Conjuration wrote:
Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
I'm going to assume you tend to take an adversarial position at the table and play as if it's you against the DM. But just because a DM uses the rules in a way that doesn't always benefit the player, that doesn't mean they are trying to screw with their players.
I'm also going to go ahead and lump you into that special group of people that think the lore/fluff/etc. doesn't matter at all when looking at the rules and how they interact with the world.
I will say however that I have found a post from the author saying that daemons have seeded certain ideas into the world (regarding soul gems) as well as spells used to summon/bind daemons that give the caster little to no control over them.
So, until I get a direct response, it seems like summon cacodaemon could very well bring forth one that isn't actually under the caster's control and just acts like it is to keep up the ruse.
Said (apparently hateful?) DM also brought up the point that it is an evil, intelligent creature. That it most likely would prefer to just consume the soul gem and send the soul to Abbadon to possibly further its own standing. It also comes down to whether or not the soul gem is even real as it's being made inside the summoned (not called) body of a cacodaemon that will completely disappear after the summon duration.
I've also tried to contact the author who penned the creature to ask her opinions on the matter and hope to have a response well before it ever comes up in game. I've no problem with people creating soul gems, as I've told them. It's more this particular method that I've got an issue with given how murky the waters are here. They also wouldn't have any issue with getting a cacodaemon as a familiar, except the player in question who wants to make these in this round about (and earlier level) way is playing an archetype that removes that possibilty.
This might be a bit of a stretch, but regarding cacodaemons...
How long does it take for the consumed soul of a creature to crystalize and grow into a soul gem? Are summoned (not called) cacodaemons willing and able to hand over a created soul gem, provided it is able to stick around long enough for the soul gem to be created? Following that, if they are able, does the soul gem disappear when the summoned cacodaemon disappears? If not, would knowing they are unable to keep it to take back to a higher powered daemon lead to more of a willingness to give it over to the one who summond it?
Or would it be more likely to consume the soul, regurgitate the soul gem (if required for this part), and then consume it itself to send the soul to Abbadon? Provided of course it has the time to do this.
While I'm aware you can't really give an official answer that would hold up in PFS games or the like, knowing how you intended things or how you would run it in your own home game would be a benefit to me as a GM.
Edit: Also, not sure if you had a hand in create soul gem, but if so, a player also recently asked if a mundane item such as a ring or necklace could be set with a cut and polished soul gem created by the spell and still function as a soul gem in the future, or at least persist past the length of time the spell states given that it has been used to craft an item. (Sorry for the tack on.)
Actually, I'm now wondering if this was just a flavor text tie-in for a supplement to the computer game...
Thanks, any way. ;-)
Franklin
Bit of threadomancy, but no. That dungeon area is no where near Lake Silverstep in the computer game. That said, if there was ever a place to stick cavern hexes to grant access to the Darklands, and maybe even get ahold of some carbauxine gas for forging mithral and the various skymetals (like adamantine) in your own kingdom... the Tors seem to be the best bet of a place to stick them.
The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.
Dur. And this is why you don't respond while still recovering from vacation. :)
I'm aware I'm kinda commiting threadomancy here, but was this meant to be a "crap, yeah, once per day" or...? Just, because with scars and constant cackling... Which keys face it, is just typical witch shenanigans, this can kinda break combat pretty quickly.
@Krodjin - it is in Book 3 of the Council of Thieves AP, What Lies in Dust. There is an article on Hellknights there, although some of it may be listed elsewhere as well.
Chain: flail
Gate: dagger
Godclaw: morningstar
Nail: lance or halberd
Pyre: glaive
Rack: longsword or whip
Scourge: heavy mace or whip
Necro, but in case some else pops in here and wonders. This is also listed in the Hellknight Aspirant trait in the player's guide.
Mark, not sure if this is still an active thread or even where to ask this otherwise, does the Kineticist, when using Kinetic blade, deal full kinetic blast damage, including composite blast damage, on all iterative attacks used as part of a full attack action. Or is the blade only valid on a single attack in the action
Not Mark, obviously, but yes. It says as such in the talent description:
Kinetic Blade wrote:
You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it’s part of another action (and isn’t an action itself), using this wild talent doesn’t provoke any additional attacks of opportunity. The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast’s damage as normal, but not your Strength modifier).
Emphasis mine, but yeah, it wouldn't be plural if it only worked on one of the attacks you made that round. Same goes if you use it with a composite blast, it does the composite blast damage for each attack. That does bring up the question on if you have to pay the composite blast cost for each attack made with it using kinetic blade but... shrugs
I know someone took a similar question to James Jacobs once and he said it would only work on one attack, but then also turned around and stated that he had no clue what the ability even was, but assumed it was a kineticist thing since the one who posed the question mentioned the class, and he went on to state he's never even looked at the class's rules much less close enough to know how it works.
So if you/your DM came across that already... dude has no clue and didn't bother trying to find out before he answered.
Not much to add here seeing as I have only started trying to flesh one out myself recently. But I did want to comment on the fact that Acrobatics and Perception were already gotten from the gloomblade archetype, so that isn't much of a bonus as far as taking a level in brawler goes.
If your DM is cool with 3rd party stuff, I'd suggest looking into the Kineticists of Porphyria books by N.Jolly. lots of new kineticist stuff in there.
If not, it's not the end of the world, I'd just suggest doubling down on one of the two at 15th if you really want a composite blast.
You could also pick up either Wood or Viscera if looking to be able to do all three physical damage types. Earth... as a third element kinda knocks away its usefulness as you can't pick up Rare Metal Infusion to bypass things like DR silver/adamantine. As far as taking a feat to get the defense... you need to look at how you want to distribute your burn for the day into those. A few points of DR is going to help, sure, but if you're taking on a bunch of nonlethal to both increases AC as well as DR... it won't take a whole lot of hits to drop you.
That's not even taking into consideration the max burn a day. There is a feat you might want to take a look at if you do decide to take two defence talents though. Burn Resistance, on the spheres of power site. Treat yourself as 2 levels lower for the amount of nonlethal you take per burn.
Out of Viscera and Wood... with what you already have, I'd go with Wood myself. If for no other reason than flavor.
That said... I'd like to throw Time out there, untyped damage so resistances aren't a thing to worry about. Nice lower level options, and Time Skip (functions as Light Speed Travel under Light), which is just awesome.
By that I meant a level by level breakdown, but just looking at your first post it seems you are missing a utility talent if you used a feat to pick one up.
That said, as a tentative answer to your original question, I would also have to agree on picking up one of the elements that allows for multiple damage type options. Personally I prefer earth over aether myself.
That said... are you only looking at 1st party elements?
Also, to save a bit of time for you guys, word of god?
N Jolly on Kinetic Training:
Luthorne wrote:
Is the Kinetic Training feat meant to offset the penalty for expanded element wild talent selection, or is the intent for it to only apply to multiclassing?
N Jolly wrote:
The original intent was for multiclassing, I actually didn't think of it in regards to a single classed character. I think I'd probably alter the text to make it so that you can select talents 1 level lower than your highest if I was going to do something like that, but the way I intended it was only for multiclassing. I'd make a feat like that, but Mort's got something similar in the KT and I'd rather not repeat it.
You are normally correct... but, I picked up wild talent "Air Cushion" at 8th and used my 5th (9th lvl) feat for "Extra Wild Talent" (wings of air).
Also at lvl 7 I took "Kinetic Training" feat -> http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/kineticist-feats#toc36
to gain +4 to lvl for secondary element wild talents cancelling out the -4 from expanded element (Air).
EDIT: if this is not the way those feats work please let me (and my GM) know as that is the way we read them.
It isn't, on either. Kinetic Training is more for if you multiclassed. It only allows you to take things you normally can for a kineticist 4 levels higher (up to your total character level), which if you are full kineticist does nothing for you and never will. It also doesn't alter the limitation imposed by Expanded Element, aside from that, it is 3rd party. I'm assuming you and your GM know and are cool with that.
That one aside, Extra Wild Talent let's you pick one that is 2 levels lower than what you can at that level. Which at 9th is normally level 4 talents, meaning you can take a 1st or 2nd level talent only with that feat.
Hopefully that clears that up for you guys.
For the sake of trying to offer advice though... link or spoiler your current stats/build. It is usually best to know what we are working with fully. Also, if it is a yes on 3rd party, I'm assuming at least N Jolly's stuff is on the table if you were pulling from spheres of power.
Uh... not to be a wet blanket here, but you couldn't get Wings of Air at 9th level.
Utility talents are gotten on even levels, first and foremost, and the earliest you could pick up Wings of Air as a secondary element would be 10th assuming you also decided to spend your 8th level utility to pick up Air's Leap or Air's Cushion.
I realize this isn't the point of this thread, so ignore me if you want I suppose.
"Acting First" and making the characters flat-footed are two different things.
CRB wrote:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are f lat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while f lat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity, unless
...
A hole is still a hole, you can still fall down it if you aren't paying attention even after your friend plummets. That aside, you would still be flat-footed against the pit if you didn't spot it. You would have been caught unaware, which is no different from a bunch of enemies hiding behind crates that no one noticed taking pot shots. On top of that, initiative very much so can be used outside of combat, the DM can call for initiative at any point in time. Usually it is only in combat but I've seen happen outside of regular combat on more than one occasion. Usually as a method of keeping track of time when it is important.
All that said.
Currently I am not in a position to search for a specific citation as I just happened to get on while getting ready for work.
When a trap is sprung, initiative is rolled. That's not applying something that is a niche case to all traps.
And a pit obviously continues to last for more than one round if that is your problem. Therefore, it would, as a trap that continues to have an effect after it is triggered, automatically gets the highest initiative count, and even if it didn't, it would still "act first" as that is when it was triggered.
Also, by the rules, you can cast it (as its an immediate effect) if you fall or a pit opens under you as a trap or part of movement normally, but if you're flat-footed, such as an enemy opens up combat with a create pit or bull rush to push you off a ledge, you cannot, since you cannot use swift or immediate actions while flat-footed.
Not saying I disagree that it should be exempt from a concentration check... but I would like to bring up the fact that when a trap is triggered... initiative gets rolled.
Traps:Duration wrote:
Unless otherwise stated, most traps have a duration of instantaneous; once triggered, they have their effect and then stop functioning. Some traps have a duration measured in rounds. Such traps continue to have their listed effect each round at the top of the initiative order (or whenever they were activated, if they were triggered during combat).
The pit trap would be at the top of the initiative order, thus, everyone would be flat-footed until their turn.
Just saying.
Again, I'm on the side of it working like it did in 3.5, just one example of how pathfinder just... didn't quite fix everything and broke others.
At least you still get a Reflex save to avoid falling!
It is a difficult thing. Its like when you have that cursed item you know is freeking cursed out of character. And you so very much want to avoid activating the curse.. BUT YOU CAN'T cause thats metagaming.. but just blindly putting it on is also metagaming.
The hardest part of me, Is that I've got a series of characters I use who are used to undead and the like. They belong to a family of necromancers after all. They live in a swamp, have have dealings with quite a few of the darker things. And I'd gladly tell the GM it, but I don't get to. It stabs me every time when my characters are completely and utterly clueless to even the most simple of undeads because the GM said so.
Then max your ranks in Knowledge (religion)... take feats and class things that gives your character a reason to mechanically. Backstory is great and all, but if you dont build something that supports it, it doesn't mean much gameplay wise.
Second, it is an immediate action, meaning it takes your immediate action for the round. You use the CMB modifiers that you used for the sunder attempt, not the modifiers that you would use for a bull rush normally. Says it in the feat description. Literally. On both counts.
This is really odd. You can use it to make a melee attack. It has an attack bonus equal to caster level plus stat, but doesn't mention removing normal bonuses to melee attacks such as BAB. Typically spells like this would say something like "uses caster level in place of BAB". Are you casting the spell for this effect, or can you use it as long as you're concentrating. Do you get extra attacks from a high BAB? Does it apply non-damaging riders on melee attacks?
You are not the one making the attack, the Mage Hand is making the attack. It has an attack modifier equal to your caster level, plus your highest mental stat modifier. That's it. One attack, 1d3 force damage. Presumably you are making the attack in place of picking up an object. So standard action to maintain concentration on further rounds, move action to make the attack, presumably within the range it can move.
Well it does force damage, and it least you get an attack cantrip while still having a utility cantrip. Also, you use strength on melee attacks and should be able to apply bonuses to hit you can only get on melee attacks which makes it unique. It's not amazing, but that isn't the only benefit of the feat either.
Edit: I should clarify. I'm not saying that you can add your strength bonus to damage, but since it says it's a melee attack you can add your strength bonus to attack.
Uh... no? The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest.
Also if you are going to use a 2-handed improvised weapon may I suggest buying a Sledge. A Sledge used as an improvised weapon starts at 2d6 damage.
Which is a great idea for the added strength for using a two handed weapon, but will take a bit to get back to that damage if using Hjnyasi.
Again, I'd suggest just using a regular brawler.
Edited:
Also, way back in Wonderstell's first post here there is a slight error. Going from the assumption of a 12th level character and then back to first, the damage wouldn't still be 2d6+6, it would be down to 1d6+6 with that two-handed improvised weapon.
No offense meant. Just bringing it up for posterity's sake.
A) 1d10+17 The scroll's damage has changed to the die size of the unarmed strike, it is not however, an unarmed strike as it is an improvised weapon and therefore Dragon Style/Ferocity does not take into effect. It is also still being used one handed (assumed) and thus only gets the normal +6 from Power Attack. The +5 enhancement bonus from the CL20 scroll still applies to the attack and damage as it is still an improvised weapon. The Amulet of Mighty Fists (wouldn't factor in due to the +5 from the scroll anyway) falls by the wayside much like Dragon Style/Ferocity.
B) 3d8+17 Only thing Strong Jaw adds to the calculation is that the unarmed strike itself counts as if it is increased two sizes 1d10>2d8>3d8.
Dont get me wrong, I can see where everyone is coming from. But not everything that applies to one applies to the other. It is a very... interestingly worded archetype feature.
Essentially it replaces the base damage the improvised weapon does with the base damage the unarmed strike does. Increasing the effective size of the weapon changes the base damage of the weapon as it is considered the new size. Any sort of "bonus" damage like that of strength and enhancement still applies as if it is an improvised weapon as normal.
The unarmed strike, while yes it does take into account size increases, does not take into account effective size increases of a weapon. If you were playing a large brawler, yes, your damage would go up a step.
They do not stack, the effective size of the improvised weapon is increased, but is then overridden by the hinyasi ability that makes it equal the amount of the brawler's unarmed strike.
All three shikigami style feats bring it up three steps (assume 1d6>1d8>2d6>3d6) but you then "deal[s] damage equal to her unarmed strike damage while fighting with an improvised weapon." So it goes right back down to whatever your current brawler damage with unarmed strikes is.
If you want to use the feat line, play a regular brawler, improvisation training doesn't care what size or effective size the weapon is that it is changing the damage of. Much like the warpriest's sacred weapon.
Only real problem here is that hinyasi doesn't have anything saying that it only uses your unarmed strike damage in place of the improvised weapon's damage if it is lower than your unarmed strike damage. Which sadly, makes shikigami style worthless for a hinyasi without a kind DM.
A bit of necromancy, but if you end your movement in midair without any way of flying or the like, you start to fall. IIRC at a rate of 500 feet per round. So it wouldn't be an action, you just start falling.
A more pertinent question: Jininsiel’s Guidance… do your samurai levels count for rogue levels with improved uncanny dodge? I'd assume it would say so if they did, but... Yeah.
But in 5e you don't get to act in 1st round of combat if you are surprised
True, however it's not one side goes before the other. Each enemy/player has the possibility of not being surprised. Aside from that, after their turn in combat (where they can't act) they are no longer surprised. Whereas in a true surprise round the opposite side doesn't even get added into the initiative order until the first side gets their turn.
btw, when Quick is your gd capstone, I would hardly call it "cheese". Probably call it "intended".
plus, Haste used to be the king of spells, and Haste(5th) is still really good for martial heavy parties.
more importantly, it opens up all other 1 action press to be done with -4 instead of -8.
So don't think that this particular thing won't see play.
As for whatever gripe you had with the guy you quoted, I don't give a s!&!, I was just replying that the feat seems fine, it's opens up quite a few press moves and it's a +4 to 1 attack in one of the most powerful martial rotations.
but *patpat* you are a good edgelord, gz.
First off, my "gripe" with the person I first replied to was a fairly simple one. I have had many players trying to use the way they are reading the rules to work in their favor. The guy was on here, in a thread about optimization, spreading false information.
I have no problem with 4 or even 5 attacks in a round, especially if we are talking from magical effects (that's been a thing for ages). I also never said the feat doesn't have it's place, just that it takes a fair amount of work to make it relevant, or not using agile weapons which I view as a shame.
I am going to continue calling it cheese because that's what most people who theory craft out to level 20 are really searching for, especially in an optimization thread. For example, assuming that Weapon Supremacy will be taken over Reactionary.
Now, if we really want to continue this conversation and assume an optimized fighter using two agile weapons and every class feat that helps that along. Taking Agile Grace, busts the build up to two-weapon flurry.
Double Slice 0/0
Strike from Quick -3
Can't use Two-weapon Flurry because we became "too optimized" sitting at a -6
Hence my comment about the agile weapons, two weapon fighting and taking all the things that make you better at doing so not actually meshing well together. IF you took personal offence to anything I said other than the, honestly purposefully condescending head pat, that's completely on you.
You realize this is a completely different situation than what I was calling out as an attempt to cheese the rules as the person I replied to was attempting to do right?
That all you really did was mesh what s/he thought would work with the fact of needing to add in a standalone strike to increase the penalty to use two-weapon flurry as I said in my follow-up post?
Yes, there is definitely cheese to find, especially when adding in magical effects. Congratulations on finding it? *pats head slowly and unsurely*
For a martial class it seems pretty strong, by level 16 a fighter can pick up Graceful Poise "While in this stance, if you make your second Strike from Double Slice with an agile weapon or agile unarmed attack, it doesn’t count toward your multiple attack penalty for the turn." If you attack with double strike first than follow up with the level 14 feat 1 action Two-weapon flurry "Strike twice, once with each weapon. These do not count toward the multiple attack penalty until the second Strike." You can get 4 attacks in the turn all at full attack bonus without some form of haste.
Okay... let's debunk this cheese real quick.
>>Start of turn
>Double Slice for two attacks with no penalty, multiple attack penalty only at -4 due to Graceful Poise stance.
>Attempt to Two-Weapon Flurry... oh, wait. Our multiple attack penalty isn't -8, we can't do this action
>Make a single melee attack instead at -4. (Or some other 1 action ability or something.)
This is of course assuming two agile weapons, but even if only your offhand is agile, it still won't be a -8 to use two-weapon flurry.
There are rules in the Bestiary for rebalancing encounters, and I'm fairly certain there's more than a few groups already posting about the first section with 7 people, 5 is fine.
Considering one of the things listed on the tracker is how long it took each player to make their character, it should be fairly obvious that they are wanting feedback on how long it takes to sit down and figure all that out.
Your alchemist player was aware they could attempt to make more of their alchemical items by overspending resonance points right? I know it's a bit of a moot point for this character, but should anyone choose to play one in the future.
