It states in spell-like abilities that if no caster level is indicated, use the creature's hit dice as the caster level. Brotherhood of the seal gives you arcane lock or hold portal as a spell-like ability, but designates no caster level. You would use the creature's total hit-dice not the class level as the caster level, correct?
Can you, via detect magic, determine an exact spell in place? Example, if you see an illusionary wall with detect magic, and you make your knowledge arcana check to determine that it is an illusion school effect, can you then make the higher DC check to determine exactly what spell it is? or is that only for spells that are visible, such as a wall of ice sitting there, to identify it as a wall of ice spell.
We all know rangers pick a favored enemy as their targets, being a race or creature type. What about a favored organization? What if you dont train to fight humans, but train to fight hellknights? Is that legal? Just curious.
If a ranger cannot identify a monster (or in the case of this alternative rule, a member of an organization), do they still get their favored enemy bonuses? Or do they have to identify them successfully to get the bonuses?
Both of the abilities are limited by being near or within 'and area with at least some dim light. In hide in plain sight, it states you cannot hide in your own shadow, indicating you can hide in the shadows of others, or other objects. For shadow jump. it uses the exact same wording, so I am making a logical connection here and thinking that you can jump between the shadows of people or objects, yes? This is for a game i'm running.
Alright, I have a shadowdancer half-elf that i am enjoying playing quite a bit. The problem is, most of the boss type monsters have such a high perception, I cant hide from them. I have shadowed armor, maxed stealth and a very good dex and a masterwork tool. Howe else can i get more bonuses to stealth short of skill focus or stealthy? I'm pretty short on feats. Any tricks i'm missing?
the spells says...
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
does this mean you can only make ONE object, thing, etc? LIke a wall or a rock-slide, or can you make a crowd of people? Can you fill each square with an illusionary person? Also, if you have, say, multiple people created by the spell, does that mean that if you disbelieve one of them, you disbelieve them all? if that's the case, you could argue the 'crowd' or all the multiples of objects are all a part of one, single big illusion.
In accordance with this ability...
When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd level, she can create visual illusions. This ability functions as silent image, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day for every two shadowdancer levels she has attained. The DC for this ability is Charisma-based.
Does 'shadowdancer's level' mean character level or class level? if it's class level, that would mean a tenth level shadowdancer is casting greater shadow conjuration at 10th caster level, yes?
Alright, here's our issue. As a group, we are well-seasoned players, and while we dont min-max constantly, we do make sure our parties have a good balance of martial, sneaky and both types of magic when we play. The pathfinder APs, while fun and extremely well-written, seem to be way too easy. We use 20 point buy (even though the APs were designed for 15 points buy, it's nearly impossible for certain MAD classes to be made well at that point buy), and while we dont rape the encounters, it seems that a lot of the AP's encounters are easy. Carrion crown had some hard stuff in it, and we are currently in shattered star, and it's not that hard (except for one or two fights). we've also done second darkness, rise of the runelords, and a few others, and the standard is pretty common. It feels like we have to make purposefully bad characters, or have really bad party balance and composition to have it be challenging. We are not looking for something like age of worms where every moment is a struggle to survive, but to have challenging and dynamic encounters, without it feeling easy.
is there a simpler fix? Like encourage the party not to have a bunch of casters, to encourage the classic four person dynamic, that sort of thing? If this has been previously discussed, point me there please.
I think the thing that irks me the most about all of this, is that aasimar and tiefling are already the best regular PC races in the game, considering their flexible stats and SLAs and other abilities. They have significantly more race points that the other races (except a few), and they tend to be the 'go to' for min-maxers. I've got no problem with min-maxing. i'm just tired of seeing entire parties of tieflings and aasimars.
Either way, this thread has been very informative. I'm liking what I'm seeing.
I get that a lot.
With the grumpiness aside (which I admit was unneeded) I am essentially saying what graystone is saying. but i see that now that i was wrong, so i withdraw my comment.
agreed, it's already super gamey and stupid, but it says they give you access to EXACTLY that spell. nothing else, nothing more, nothing less. if you have darkness, you have 2nd level spells. if you have daylight, you're f-ed, because that's not 2nd level. cant have it one way and not the other. if you're gonna game the rules, the rules get to game you back.
a non-caster can be good, effective and fun. but it will never approach the power of full casters. Magic is the apex. You just gotta deal with it, and enjoy it for what it is.
I have never played a bard before, new game starting and the party seems to ask for one, lots of physical attackers, and the wizard will be a summoner, so lots of people to benefit from inspire courage. here's the feats (so you know why i picked what spells i did) and the spell selection. what do you think about the spell selection in particular? Am i leaning too far toward mind effects? (the guy has a high nearly maxed) charisma, and good dex (and will use an agile weapon for damage in melee). Let me know if i'm on the right track, or missing something obvious. campaign is gonna be against lots of people, and then outsiders at higher levels.
1- Weapon Finesse
1: 0- Detect Magic, Read Magic, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation
2: 0- Message
3: 0- Ghost Sound
4: 2- Glitterdust, Heroism
5: 2- Cacophonous Call
6: 2- Calm Emotions
7: 1- Charm Person
8: 3- Charm Monster
9: 3- Slow
10: 2- Mirror Image
11: 1- Solid Note
12: 4- Dance of a Hundred Cuts
13: 3- Confusion
14: 2- Suggestion
15: 5- Cloak of Dreams
16: 4- Heroic Finale
17: 3- Good Hope
18: 6- Programmed Image
19: 5- Mass Cacophonous Call
20: 4- Virtuoso Performance
Then I withdraw my objection to your comment. I thought the point of a discussion was to listen to other's arguments? I was just saying that i've already laid out my point of view previously (and with lots of math) in this post, and was hoping you'd read that and respond to it. No worries, however.
Paizo has specifically said that ninja and anti-paladin are archetypes of the paladin and rogue class, just complex enough that they required their own leveling chart. That seems like that would make anti-paladin and ninja the names of archetypes, so they would quality.
Djelai: First off, being insulting about the kikko armor is completely uneeded. I never once insinuated I could pick it up anywhere I wanted at any time. It is exactly the same as the western Brigandine style armor, which existed in 2nd edition, so our DM has allowed the western equivalent. Secondly, I'm talking about crafting bracers of armor, versus buying magical armor. You can get a higher AC, combining magical armor with AAT, plus all those other nifty cheap AC enhancing tricks, than by using mage armor. If you'd read previously in the threat, we actually went through much of the math and numbers on this very subject, so I dont really want to type it all out again. The mage armor is cheaper and doesnt take a feat, but results in a significantly lower AC.
Andreww: At 15th level, an AT only has 12th level casting abilities, so 6th level spells. Most ATs wont have the ability to GET spell perfection that early, considering all the other feats they need to take in order to survive and be effective as the scout/trapper, in addition to a caster. Generally, with a full-time caster, you'd get quicken around level 13 at the earliest, and probably around 15 normally, that way you can have a variety of spells to quicken, unless you MUST quicken those first and second level spells in the place of your highest slots. and you cannot get spell perfection and quicken at the same level with an AT. However, if you get it at 17, you get a bounus wizard feat at level 19, which you can use to take spell perfection. The hard part is fitting in the THREE metamagic feats to GET spell perfection in before level 15, when you also need ot take stuff like spell penetration, and others like toughness, weapon finesse, great fortitude and the like.
I'm aware of the rounding down, thank you. Alright, that's true, no real 'off hand'
I'm assuming that when you make your 'off hand' attacks, you use half your str bonus to start, then add the 'half again' from dragon ferocity. so it'd be +8 and +6 for damage on your on hand, and +4 & +4 for your off-hand?
Djelai: That is assuming you have time to craft something as money intensive as bracers of armor +8. In addition, BUYING 9not crafting) +5 mithril brigandine (kikko) armor is cheaper, and gives two more AC with AAT. and we've gone over the fact that ATs dont even get quicken until level 16 or 17 most of the time, and can use tricky spells five times per day to ignore the somatic components anyway, which eliminates the need for AAT on the turns you want to quicken. it's cheaper, easier, more cost effective, and doesnt require a campaign with down time. i can tell you most of the APs have a very distinct LACK of down time near the last few books, rushing you toward the fight with the BBEG as fast as possible. Assuming you can get craft wondrous time, you can get it later, for more money and less AC.
Alright, let's go ahead and assume that what you're saying is correct, it still seems very VERY odd. EVERY other archetype that gives up fascinate, also gives up suggestion and mass suggestion. Making Dragon herald an anomaly that to me does not make any sense.
ANd I do not think you are right, if you read the entire suggestion performance..
Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make a suggestion (as per the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect).
It mentions using the free action to continue the fascinate effect from your bardic performance. I strongly suspect you can only use your suggestion after the bardic fascinate.
Okay here's the two feats, dragon style and dragon ferocity... the relevant parts anyway..
Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus.
the first is from dragon style, the second from dragon ferocity. Now. if you have an 18 str let's say, that's +4 to damage. your first attack each round, gets 1.5 times your str mod, plus another half of your strength mod? That's what I'm seeing, since the second effect is an addition. so if you had two swings, it'd go like this...
first attack 1d6+8
that's time and a half plus half again for the first, and normal, plus half again for each attack after the first.
am I reading this right?
Starbuck: Except, all of those archetypes give up abilities the dragon herald also gives up, so they do not work. THe ONLY one is song healer, and that doesnt give up suggestion or mass suggestion anyway, so while it is compatible, it doesnt address my concern at all.
Odraude: sadly, that wont work either. It states in fascinate...
Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make a suggestion (as per the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). A bard can use this ability more than once against an individual creature during an individual performance.
The "See above" indicates that you must fascinate them with the fascinate bardic performance ability, not via other means. Rendering that suggestions not usable by RAW.
So still, it appears to be completely broken and useless, mechanically, which is almost certainly NOT the developers intent.
Dragon Heralds, the new kobold bard archetype, gives up fascinate and countersong for a really cool sanctuary type ability. However, they keep suggestion and mass suggestion. The problem? In order to use suggestion and mass suggestion, you have to fascinate the enemy first. This doesnt work at all. So, can they use suggestions and the mass version WITHOUT fascinating them? Or do you think the developers intended for them to lose counter-song and distraction and not fascinate? It simply strikes me as silly that they have two songs they cant even use, obviously a mistake. Thoughts?
PC: Syraneth, Female Human Evangelist Cleric
Same player's character died again, and again, nothing he could do to stop it. The thing this time, is the changes to the fiendish template from 3.5 to pathfinder made smite horrifically powerful on a mob with 30 HD. It ran up, grabbed her with it's massive grapple, smote her, and started doing 5d6+30 each round. We're level 8. Not much that could have been done. We tried. RIP.
that is what I thought.
but, my other question stands. do they have to be flat-footed for ME, or for the sword? the example being mage's sword or spiritual weapon. If they cannot see me (i'm invisible or whatever) but they can see the floating sword, are they flat-footed for the spell, since I am not visible?
except twilight knife says it flanks specifically. and since you can get sneak attack with spells that you make attack rolls with, and you make an attack roll with twilight knife, i dont see why it wouldnt get your sneak attack.
Alright, so let's say you're a caster with sneak attack, like an arcane trickster, and you cast twilight knife. Obviously, if you're hidden, on the first round of attacks, they are flat-footed and yoru knife gets the sneak attack bonus. However, on further rounds, if it is flanking with someone, it gets sneak attack. does it also get YOUR sneak attack, considering it is YOUR spell? by RAW, it appears to be the case.
another question, if they cannot see YOU, but they can see, say, mage's sword, does the sword get sneak attack since the caster of the spell is hidden? I dont think so, they would have to be flat-footed to the sword, but i'm just double-checking.
either way, getting an official ruling on this would be REALLY nice. IF SLAs qualify you for PrCs as if they were casting levels.. I dunno. Even 3.5 didnt do that, and 3.5 was nuts in the min/max department.
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Thanks for the reference on the FAQ. but it's not a change, you're applying something that wasnt spelled out in the examples. taking their example of one feat, and applying it as a blanket statement to all classes with caster level requirements does not work. also, you may find it a welcome change, but you play in 15 person games with 4 hour battles, and use 3.5 materials.
So by your logic, a fighter with a great sword can use two-weapon fighting, because a monk is allowed to with flurry of blows?
Yup. Also, i know it says that having a caster level from a SLA qualifies you for item creation feats, but where does it say that qualifies you for arcane strike, since SLAs are neither arcane nor divine? i'm not saying it's not there, I just dont remember reading that, can you point it out to me please?
exactly. You cannot take a single exception as a the rule. that means because monks dont have to use two weapons when using 'two weapon fighting' from flurry of blows, that no one else needs to either. a fighter cannot use a greatsword to use two-weapon fighting, even though a monk CAN with a temple sword in two hands. The exception is NOT the rule, sorry.
Logical step? that's not how things work. Just because they supply you for item creation, doesnt mean they satisfy for spellcasting classes. and here's why...
craft staff says...
Prerequisite: Caster level 11th.
arcane trickster says....
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd
That is different. having a caster level, is different than 'at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher'. first off, SLAs are neither arcane nor divine as far as I know. they recreate arcane and divine spells, but are not those things themselves. secondly, having a caster level, is different than being able to cast a SPELL. not a spell-like.
the parts I left out. picking the longs without using knock (there were about a dozen. disabling about seven traps, and sneak attacking a few guards with saps to knock them out without killing them. I did 90% of this without resources. Also, i did a large majority of it with stealth, not invisibility. then, when we went back into the castle. I was the scout again, got ambushed twice (they had evidently found evidence of my passing, despite my efforts), and only survived because of my high AC and melee ability. I was able to hold them off with defensive fighting until the fighter showed up, then tumbled to flank him and used elemental touch in melee to sneak attack the guards to death. The key is that I was able to do all those things while expending about a quarter of the resources of a straight wizard. to quote a highly regarded expert...
You're the ninja/rogue with something extra. It bears repeating.
In one discussion of the AT on the Paizo boards, someone referred to an AT he played in 3.x as “MacGyver with spells.” This is an excellent description of how the AT works, and how he contributes. Regardless of your party's makeup, the AT can fill the stealthy skill-monkey role of the bard, ninja or rogue, and has the magic to solve or bypass some problems that they can't. He can also cast arcane spells like a sorcerer or wizard, and can fill that role to some degree, if needed. He's more effective, though, if there's another dedicated full caster taking care of the “god” role. The AT is a secondary party buffer at best, but by coordinating with your other caster(s), you can cover a lot of bases.
Rogues can use magic items like wands and scrolls, etc., but that gets expensive, fast, and they have to roll a check every time. The AT can reliably use the best spell list in the game, essentially for free.
So, when it's time for somebody to turn invisible, climb silently over the wall, knock out the guards, kill the one guard who made his save with a single cantrip, coup de grace the others while they're still knocked out, find and disable the pit trap, then unlock and open the gates from the inside, there's just one character in the group who can do all of that by himself without breaking much of a sweat, or expending a fortune in spells or magic items. It was all you, dog. At seventh level.
A rogue could do all that with the right scrolls and a few successful UMD checks (he's hosed if he fails one, though). A wizard could do most of that, by using a lot more magic than the AT needed (assuming he had it prepared), though he might not do so well with the trap.
The AT did it with the lowest expenditure of resources, and has plenty left over for whatever happens next. He needed two low-level spells, a cantrip, two climb checks, some stealth rolls at +20, a weapon and a tool kit. Take a bow, young Skywalker. The force is with you!
He could have also managed all that in other ways than the methods used here, depending on his spell and skill selection. The point is, “Arcane Trickster” is the name of the class, and having tricks up your sleeve is what makes you fun to play. "
PC: Diesel, Male Dwarf Forgemaster Cleric
Again, someone in our party was killed before they could take an action in combat. We were camped in the weird valley, after talking to the strange semi-intelligent mummy. The monkey demons jumped us, and while the dwarf was awake, he hadnt gone yet, the monkey boss jumped him. After being converted to pathfinder, the DM gave him the 'scout' rogue archetype, allowing him to get all his sneak attack when he charges, and they have pounce for free. needless to say, the dwarf took over 80 points of damage before he could act or even stand up during the first round of combat, killing him out-right. They then kidnapped the gnome druid during the surprise round as well. We were left, stunned and confused, since we'd lost two party members in two sessions, both during surprise rounds, with no chance of even fighting back or saving them.