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Chief Sootscale

Xavier319's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 949 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Detect Magic wrote:
Worth noting: telepathy is a one way communication, as far as I can tell, not a mind-meld.

not at all...

Telepathy (Su)

The creature can mentally communicate with any other creature within a certain range (specified in the creature’s entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same time

Format: telepathy 100 ft.; Location: Languages.

it uses the word "conversation", it is two way communication, just like talking. if the other creatures know you have telepathy and are in range, they can reach out to you and "ping" you to talk. it is very good.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

also, pseudodragons CAN speak. if a familiar cannot speak it will say so in the languages section. they speak draconic, so they can activate wands and scrolls

Cheliax

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Here's my thought. The fairy dragon is great. What is the biggest thing the pesudo dragon has is both blindsense AND reach. for a character that is trying to deliver touch spells, it's amazing. and no SLAs sucks, but it has enough UMD that it will rarely fail it's check. For a straight wizard, i think the fairy dragon is on par with the pesudodragon. for anyone with d8s or 3/4 BAB, the second is better I think (aka magus or cleric with eldritch heritage)

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

agreed. if the designers dont want it going off your HD, then it wont. it's still a save or lose attack. and there are ways to make it better. it's already better than drow sleep poison, and that gets used heavily.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

So yes

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

@barnes: yes I know that. I was talking about his base stats for his two dragon hit dice. Which give him three base to all saves, 2 bab and good skill points.

As for the hit dice thing... it says they gain hit dice for all effects relating to hd. Does this include the calculation of poison dcs? Its not clear

Cheliax

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Fair points. I would say communal Air walk is amazing as Rynjin says. Since full plate fighters have a seriously hard time making ANY fly checks.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Fair point. That was a minor aspect to begin with

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Thanks for the answer. I ask since I am playing a cleric that gets fly as a domain spell. Was wondering if I needed to memorize airwalk with fly on my list, or should I just carry some scrolls.

Cheliax

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Thank you for not answering the question. xD

I'm asking about fly and airwalk.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

@Te'Shen: Yes, but without his class skill bonus the bonus is just ranks, which is underwhelming.

@@Sissyl: Yup! And thats with two ranks. If you max stealth....

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

That's pretty much the question. What do you guys think is the better spell? Fly allows for much greater speed, but requires a skill check to be effective and has a tenth of the duration.

Cheliax

3 people marked this as a favorite.
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A CUTE, cat-sized dragon who makes adorable chirpy sounds all the time. Duh.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

When someone grabs the Improved Familiar feat, they are looking for a particular something. Usually it's combat survivability, SLAs, special abilities, and a UMD buddy. In short, extra actions. Many familiars have several of these things, but no one has all of them, and certain choices are seen as clearly superior than the others.

Through several wizard and witch guides, I have seen pseudodragons get a bum rap, usually rating an orange (read as 'meh..' or so so) rating. These guides are amazing and I use them myself, they are better than anything I could put together. I am currently working on choosing an improved familiar and I have come do a startling discovery: Pseudodragons are actually quite good. The purpose of this post is to explain my reasoning and get some feedback from others.

Let's look at what the little dragon does NOT have. The big ones are SLAs and DR. He has no spell-likes, which reduces his versatility at lower levels, and makes it so that he does not have many tricks that you do not have to pay for. Some good examples of SLA-heavy familiars are the little Lyrakie Azata, who has cure light wounds, silent image, and several other useful SLAs.

The other thing he does not have is fast healing or DR. Several familiars have DR of 5 (one even has a DR of 10) that is overcome by magic to chaotic. Many also have a Fast healing of 2, or even regeneration, greatly increase their survivability and reducing between combat healing costs.

The Pseudodragon's statistics are decent but not great. His strength is high enough to carry a decent amount, being a quadruped, and if he is polymorphed, he gains the +4 before the polymorph effects are applied, bringing his base strength to 11. his other stats are good, but not exceptional.

Now, what he does do well...

He is a dragon, giving him great base saves, decent base BAB, and his class skills are fantastic, most pointedly he has UMD as a class skill, which makes up for his 10 CHA. The above Lyrakie is noted as having a 20 CHA for UMD use, which gives a +5, though the little dragon gains a +3 for having it as a class skill, almost as good. He also has a bevy of strong class skills, and his stealth is massive. He can also speak, and has 'hands' so he can use UMD.

He has blindsense. This is worth a section of it's own. He has 60' blindsense. he can see invisible creatures, and then use a glitterdust scroll on them. he can automatically sense ambushes and yell out a warning. He adds an entire layer of protection for the party that is normally very difficult to achieve.

He has telepathy 60'. It's great, he can link the party up, talk to anyone for the party. He can coordinate the party silently. He can act as a translator.

SR. He has a spell resistance of 12, while not great, at the highest levels he has a 5% (natural '1' on a d20) resistance to magic. Just making them roll is enough.

He has a natural attack that has poison. The DC is not great. But the effect puts you to sleep. AKA, dead. If anyone succumbs to his poison, it's a one-way ticket to coupe de grace town.

And another huge one that I'm sure many dont realize, he has reach. Pseudodragons are tiny, giving them a natural reach of 0 ft. His tail gives him reach of 5 ft. This means he can deliver touch spells, aid another, and make attacks with his poison without actually entering someone's hex, increasing his versatility immensely. Having weapon finesse even more increases his ability to land touch spells and attacks

His movement is slow, but he has a long flight speed with good maneuverability. and his immunity to sleep and paralysis is good, and might save his life from time to time.

So, those are my thoughts. Feel free to agree or disagree!

Cheliax

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Rock on. I just wanted to make sure I did not miss some kind of errata or other thing that changes that catch all statement "An oracle casts divine spells drwan from the cleric spell lists". Thanks for verifying.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Alright, the Oracle class states...

"An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists."

Now, we see from time to time, there are spells that say at the top of the spell "Cleric X" and do not say "Cleric/Oracle X", are these spells prohibited from oracles, or were they just left out because of sloppy editing? And even if they were left out on purpose, it states in the Oracle Class that they cast spells from the cleric spell lists, meaning any spell a cleric can cast, an oracle can as well, yes? Further confusing things. generally spells that are only usable by one of the two dual spell lists (Sorcerer/Wizard and Cleric/Oracle) specifically point out in big bold letters that "only wizards may cast this spell" or "ORACLE ONLY", and the like.

I'm just double checking. From what I can tell, an Oracle can learn and cast any spell that is on any cleric spell list (barring domains of course). So spells like sure casting and burst of radiance which only list 'cleric 1' and 'cleric 2', but no mention of oracles, are not prohibited.

Cheliax

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I think SLAs are good. since you are 'casting' them. you have to make concentration, they can be interrupted, etc.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Hmmm it'd be nice to know officially

Cheliax

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True, since you can cast harmless spells that target fort saves on them, like polymorph, without the immunity hitting it.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Bump. and also curious if you can use Spell-like abilities on familiars.

Cheliax

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I would assume 'share spells' would win over the construct type. If we're going by precedence here, share spells trumps another creature type, so it's not unreasonable to infer it would trump the construct type as well. It's not RAW, but it's not unreasonable.

Cheliax

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Alright. What purpose would the 10 con serve? Seems like a superfluous stat if it's right.

Cheliax

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The real question is does it having a con score keep it from dying at 0 HPs.

Cheliax

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I figured since it was a clockwork FAMILIAR, it might be special. they have an INT score too

Cheliax

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I'm an idiot. I meant Clockwork Familiar! Not all clockwork constructs.

Source Pathfinder Adventure Path #63: The Asylum Stone

STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 11
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 15

That's the copy-paste from the AP PDF. they have a con score there too

Cheliax

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This is confusing me. They are constructs, but they have a con score. I checked my print copy of the source material, and yes, they have a con score. Does this mean they can go to neg con for hit points?

Cheliax

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would be great.

Cheliax

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I think they should be able to earth glide, honestly. I would say this. Armor? SUre, if he's only ever gonna take one shape, if he changes shapes at all, the armor would break or just fall off. HOWEVER, he could, in fact, most likely wear a bag or satchel. He can speak, and manipulate objects. probably wear a belt (and in most forms keep it, as a thing wrapped around it's 'middle'. from what i read above, it's saying the earth elementals can take ANY form they like, animals, humanoids, whatever. so they could use things like belts, bags, bracers even. if they wear anything specifically humanoid (Armor, helmets, gloves, boots) they could only use them while in that form. and the elemental would probably not want to stay in that form forever). they can have hands, can manipulate objects, and also can speak, so they could use scrolls or wands. i can totally imagine a pile of rocks, with what appears to be a messenger bag or satchel kinda tangled up in the rocks, with what appears to be some bracers buried in some rocks and dirt. you reach down to grab it, and the rocks move, and turn into a small elemental wearing the bracers and with the bag around it's middle, growling at you in Terran.

Cheliax

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
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The title says it all. If i have a small earth elemental as a familiar, can it do stuff like wear armor, use wands, carry equipment? It is the only familiar with a truly solid body, and they CAN hold a rigid and normal form. they can speak and manipulate objects. Is there any ruling anywhere that says if they or cannot use equipment like this?

Cheliax

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Alright guys, thanks for the help! I'll go with that Gregory says, sounds reasonable.

Cheliax

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Bump. I've been asked by players if we could try this in my hand and im hesitant. Just curious what people think of it power and balance wise. And maybe hear done of their experiences.

Cheliax

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It is not conjuration im trying to avoid,but summoning. So I got no problems sending them to the plane of pants to think about what they have done. ;)

Cheliax

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Ahhhh it's true seeing and greater teleport i was thinking of. I stand correct. So yes, still a good tactic. Nice thing is it's something that can be done without focusing in it.

Cheliax

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Just have to decide for the above build which two of the following three I want as feats: Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Divine Interference.

@Wiggz and Fruian: Sounds awesome, the problem is since this is savage tides (hence demons galore), almost everything we fight at that level has plane shift and greater teleport at will. taking them approximately two rounds to return to the battle after being plane shifted.

Cheliax

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@Magda: Thank you SO MUCH for your help, this is so valuable, you have no idea.

Do you think I should take scribe scroll or Spell focus (or drop divine interference, depending on what we think would be better for the party, scribe scroll for utility, or divine interference), and how about the strength being at 13 or 14? since i plan to use guided weapons past a certain level, does the investment of 13 to 14 strength sound worth it past making the early levels easier? Well, in order to get preferred spell, i must take heighten spell, it's a pre-req sadly. Having trickery domain, i plan on memorizing Confusion a LOT in my domain slots. I could drop preferred and heighten, for Bouncing spell and divine interference at 11th level. If i did that, I'd change my lineage to suggestion, since i can spontaneously cast it as a 4th level spell, which with magical lineage would still be a very viable option for specialization. The build would look like this...

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 17+2 (all)
Cha 10

Trait: Magial Lineage: Suggestion
Domain: Trickery (Deception) *which gives confusion*

1- Lingering Performance retrain to Bouncing Spell at Level 5
B Improved Initiative
3- Power Attack
5- Scribe Scroll or Spell Focus: Enchantment
7- Spell Penetration
9- Persistant Spell
11- Divine Interference
13- Quicken Spell
15- Spell Perfection: Confusion
17- Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment

The thing is, even not spontaneous casting confusion, i can still memorize it a LOT, probably more than i'll be able to utilize in a day at higher levels (considering targeting restrictions). trickery has some good spells, but it would look like this..

Domain spells memorized:
4th - Confusion
5th - Confusion (cast in a higher slot)
6th - Mislead
7th - Persistent Confusion (Cast in a higher slot)
8th - Quickened Confusion

Cheliax

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alright, here is the build, the 12 int could be changed to a 14 str and i could put only one point in perform, since from what i can tell you only need perform ranks for counter-song. a change could be to ditch Heighten and preferred spell, and put in either bouncing spell or reach spell, put back in spell focus or scribe scroll, and change my magical lineage to suggestion.

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 17+2 (all)
Cha 10

Trait: Magial Lineage: Confusion
Domain: Trickery (Deception) *which gives confusion*

1- Lingering Performance retrain to Heighten Spell at Level 5
B Improved Initiative
3- Power Attack
5- Scribe Scroll or Spell Focus: Enchantment
7- Preferred Spell: Confusion
9- Persistant Spell
11- Spell Penetration
13- Quicken Spell
15- Spell Perfection: Confusion
17- Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
19- Greater Spell Penetration

The other idea is to take a level in fighter in there somewhere.

Cheliax

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Hmmm I like numbers. and If i stick 'guided' on my reach weapon, i get a much higher attack and damage output for a money investment. and all it requires is power attack, which i will still get 3 for 1 when two-handing. that will negate the need for a high strength later on. further reducing my build investment in melee. sound like a decent idea? I'll toss up a build soon.

Just wish there was a simple reach bludgeoning weapon, so i could use this really sweet long-handled mace priest model I have. since Asmodeus's favored weapon is the heavy mace.

Cheliax

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Good points and well said Magda. It appears that Combat Reflexes, power attack, and at least a 14 dex would seem to be needed. in order to do this. I'll post a build attempting to harness this ability. It still feels like one level of fighter would make a build like this much more possible, the extra feat, the proficiencies, and the armor would be nice. I'll post both versions of the build today if you'd like to give your feedback Magda.

Cheliax

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Furian, since you're being awesome and helpful, I figured I'd post the two possible builds I have bouncing around in my head. the first one focuses entirely on enchantment effects. The second one tries to be decent at enchantments while covering summoning as well. I think it does a decent job. Which do you think would be better? does the second one even work?

Deity: Asmodeus
Domain: Trickery (Deception)

Trait: Magical Lineage: Confusion

1- Lingering Performance Retrain to Heighten Spell at Level 5
B Improved Initiative
3- Spell Focus: Enchantment5- Scribe Scroll
7- Preferred Spell: Confusion
9- Persistant Spell
11- Spell Penetration
13- Quicken Spell
15- Spell Perfection: Confusion
17- Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
19- Greater Spell Penetration

Trait: Magial Lineage: Suggestion

1- Lingering Performance retrain to Scribe Scroll at level 5
B Improved Initiative
3- Spell Focus: Conjuration
5- Augment Summoning
7- Sacred Summons
9- Persistant Spell
11- Spell Penetration
13- Quicken Spell
15- Bouncing Spell
17- Spell Perfection: Suggestion
19- Superior Summons

Cheliax

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Here's a question. In the magical item rules, it states an optional rule is allowing secondary enchantments on items after the first for a 50% mark-up. You could, for example, make Boots of striding and springing, with a secondary of Feathered step, to ignore difficult ground.

I know this is not PFS legal, since it is an optional rule, but how many of you use this system, what restrictions do you levy on it to limit power? I was thinking two additional enchantments past the first max, but they must, in some way, relate to the previous. For example, a cloak of resistance cannot have a cape of the mountebank as a secondary, but could have something related to saves or protection (Subject to DM discretion of course).

Thoughts?

Cheliax

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Yes, i know about The trident. THe problem is a LARGE portion of our enemies in this campaign from CR 9 forward are demons. Which are immune to electricity. And guided is allowed in our games. now i just have to decide on madness or trickery (deception). Madness has significantly better domain powers, and Trickery has significantly better spells, and the domain powers arent horrible, just not nearly as good. The big problem is the big 'money' power for madness, touch of madness, encourages me to venture into Melee often, which is probably not a great idea. And trickery fits the character concept more. PReferred spell confusion should be fun too.

Cheliax

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I would normally Agree with you completely, trust me on this, but we played through this campaign once before, and wiped halfway through. I suppose If I'm extremely careful I could survive until late game. Asmodean cleric pure evangelist, run a caster/buffer, and avoid melee. though with a guided weapon I CAN pitch in melee if I have to. But you're probably right, since we have so many fighters I don't really need to pitch in melee wise that much. Madness domain makes me WANT to run into melee and touch people, which brings my garbage AC into play. So either a crazy street preacher with the madness domain, or a slick Asmodean priest.

Cheliax

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Well, the fighter level wont hurt that badly. It will give me some melee oomph, as well as solidify my defenses. In this particular campaign, being stuck in light armor with low physical stats without the protections of a wizard is a good way to die. A LOT of casualties happen during surprise rounds in this campaign. This campaign is going above level 20. It's one of the Paizo big three (Savage tide, shackled city, and age of worms), so it'll be made up easily enough. I'm honestly extremely worried about giving up Heavy armor and such, It will make me extremely vulnerable.

As for the Detect evil... that's what a ring of mind shielding is for. >..> I'm neutral, I promise! 0:)

As for 'needing' madness or chaos, I disagree. In order to utilize chaos yourself, you have to hit them with quickened spells as the negative re-roll only lasts one round. Madness is amazing, the domain spells, the 8th level power, AND the 1st level powers are simply great. SO i'll have to decide what i do with that. A conductive weapon plus touch of madness could be very effective.

Cheliax

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Except that Asmodeus does not have either madness or chaos Domains . The character idea is based around worshiping the Prince of lies. I guess I could do madness domain but I would have to change gods. I'll consider it.

Cheliax

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... I don't want to be a str based cleric. I thought I made that clear. I want to make a mind affecting caster cleric that can backup melee with a guided weapon
My question was more if the community at large thinks this is a waste of time. Enchant focus with trickery domain gives me confusion and there are spells like suggestion and such from evangelist. I just always felt the other aspects of the archetype are being ignored for the bardic performance. And there is do much more to it than that. That and or party had three dedicated melee types,and Ford not need another.

As for the reach cleric guide, I have read it, and it is good. Thanks for pointing it out ,though it is not what I have in mind.

Cheliax

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What do you guys think of them? I've seen so many beat-clerics that are evangelists, or summoners that are evangelists. Sure it's effective, To me, it just seems like a waste of all of those spontaneous spells. In a party of fighters (ours has three, a paladin, inquisitor and ranger), it feels silly to make yet another melee character. Our other is an evoker wizard, so I figured making an enchantment focused caster cleric would be effective. Trickery domain (deception), spell focus and greater in enchantment, etc. Grab a guided weapon and a level in fighter to get power attack and heavy armor back. That way I can fight, benefit from my own bonuses, control with mind spells, and still support the party and add to attack and damage with my performance. And it'll be a blast to use bluff and perform to sway people to my religion. It gives the party something we lack (control via mind effects), as well as additional melee support. the other idea is just to make a summoner. While there is a neutral and good summons feat, there is no evil summons, leaving the lawful evil (i worship asmodeus) list severely lacking for sacred summons.

But I digress, what do you guys think of enchantment focused evangelist clerics? I think they could be done quite well, and with trickery/deception, it adds confusion into the mix as well.

Cheliax

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That's what I'm saying. A spellcraft check, in a void, will work. You and another wizard are facing each other, he casts an illusion. You KNOW it's an illusion. you disbelieve. But if the caster is clever, or the two casters cast say... shadow evocation and fireball, at the same time (readied action?) they can fool someone. they know ONE of the fireballs is illusory, but not which one, negating the automatic disbelief. It just demands clever usage.

I still dont think that the automatic disbelief works on the Shadow spells, though I could be wrong. I'm convinced on the normal Illusions, they will just require some thought and guile.

Here's another way around it... The capstone for the Veiled Illusionist PrC...

Naga: At 10th level, as a free action while casting an illusion spell, a veiled illusionist can spend 1 point from her veil pool to coil the illusion upon itself. Any creature that disbelieves the illusion sees a second illusion within the translucent outline of the first, as if the illusionist had cast the spell a second time. Effectively, after a creature disbelieves the first illusion, it sees a second illusion in its place, which it must attempt to disbelieve separately. The veiled illusionist must determine the features of the second illusion as she casts the first. If the second illusion is especially similar to the first one, creatures that study or interact with it receive a +4 bonus on the save to disbelieve the effect.

This way, they make the spellcraft check, and see through the illusion, but then see something else under it. Now, this is abnormal enough that unless they are intimately familiar with how Veiled Illusionist work, you could reasonably argue that they no longer have 'proof' for the second illusion, as this is NOT how the spell they identified works at all, wouldn't you agree?

Cheliax

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Fair enough, I am convinced for usual illusions, good points all around. So that just means you have to use illusions more cleverly. Example: if there is a battle going on, and a lot is going on, say there are several clouds or some other BC effects going on. You could cast your illusion spell, they identify it.. but unless something pops out of nothing. they actually wont know what it is that the illusion is. So out of the stinking cloud comes a charging warrior who looks Just like the party's fighter who the BBEG knows is in the stinking cloud right now. Is that the illusion the guy just cast? or is that the real warrior? He knows there is AN illusion around, but unless you're VERY obvious about it, they wouldn't automatically disbelieve it, correct? Also, since you apply all penalties to spellcraft that you do to perception, in a fight you almost automatically get the -2 for "bad conditions, considering the noise, explosions and screaming going on (situation dependent of course, wouldnt apply to the beginning of a battle or during periods of relative calm), and if you're a BBEG being faced by a smiting paladin in melee, you'd probably get the -5 for being distracted to spellcraft the wizard in the corner who's casting spells, since you're most likely more focused on the guy trying to cut you in half with righteous fury. not to mention being invisible or breaking LOS will stop spellcraft checks as well, since visual sight is required.

Shadow spells specifically say you have to interact with them to get a save, and there is no automatic disbelief, since it is partially real. You'll know it's a shadow spell, but that just means you really hope you make your save, since you know if you cant willpower your way past it it WILL hurt you for real. so that's slightly different, at least from what I'm reading. Since they are quasi real and it says you don't even GET a save until you interact with them, if i summon a shadow conjuration dretch, he KNOWS it's partially real... but he also knows if he cant use his willpower to overcome it, it will still do him real damage. so how does that interact with this? And on that note, if you cast shadow conjuration, they have no idea, again, what effect you're making with it unless you're very blatant with it. It just seems to neuter stuff like the shadow spells if they identify it and automatically suffer the 20% effect of your shadow conjuration or evocation without needing to make a save.

And as a third question. DO people normally run things as the "if you make your save, and it's non-damaging it only works X% of the time, or do you do the reduced effectiveness suggested in the shadow conjuration guide i linked in my post above? Where you reduce it to 20% or whatever effectiveness? making a 50 foot pit 10 ft deep if you make your save, for example? or would 80% of people be able to just stand on it, and 20% of them fall in?

Sorry, I know it's a wall of text, but this is something I'm very interested in discussing with you fine people. :)

Cheliax

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

So, you are suggesting that if someone makes a spellcraft check. they have immediately defeated any illusion that you cast. Who needs will saves? You have a skill check. You THINK he's casting an illusion. the gestures he's made tell you that. But you don't have proof. Think of it like a trial, you have to PROVE it, not suspect. if you touch an illusion, and your arm goes through it. then you've proven it to be not real. You automatically disbelieve it. Making a spellcraft check does not PROVE anything. what it would do is give you reason to study the illusion and get a save, or to walk up and touch it to PROVE it's not real. A spellcraft check does not constitute proof, it constitutes suspicion and reason to disbelieve.

Sadly this discussion is pointless, as nothing in the rules proves my point of view or yours. We'll just argue about the definition of proof and what it means. I simply do not believe that a skill check that is quite easy to make (and that anyone can max out with ease), should automatically defeat ANY illusions spell with a 'disbelief' save if you see it being cast.

This is exactly why when someone asks for advice on illusions, or how to build an illusionist, the first advice they are given is always "find out how your GM treats illusions", as there are no hard and fast definitions for exactly what constitutes proof, and also how to handle the rules. It varies from GM to GM. Thanks for your input! :)

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

well, making a spellcraft check is not 'proof'. you could have failed. you dont know if you failed the check or not. there are also many ways to disguise spellcraft checks. making the check only gives you a suspicion it is an illusion, which will make you approach it, study it, not assume it's real. but it's not proof. proof is sticking your arm through an illusory wall.

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