Desna Effigy

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While not as extreme, I’ve seen this sort of thing before and found it’s not to be so much a matter of the player’s logic being greater than their humanity but them being divorced from the magnitude of their actions. Anyone can roll a dice, killing another person much less a defenseless baby is another matter.

My advice is don’t let them take the easy way out, make it “real” for them. If they want to kill this changeling, make them describe how they do it. How do they pull this baby out of its mother’s arms? Where do they put the knife as its crying helplessly? What do they do about the mother as she tries to interfere and desperately pleads for its life? What do they do with this tiny corpse now that they’ve committed the deed? How do they explain it to horrified villagers and the authorities? Was it really a changeling?

What you do is up to you but above all don’t let them get away with saying “I kill it”. If you really want put your players in a moral quandary you can even make this changeling one of a set of twins, with no clear way of telling which is which.

While this sort of thing does have the potential to cause inner party strife, it is the sort of thing that should. After all, the PC’s should be the heroes of the story not some heartless baby killers.


1: Wait till the party is sleeping.

2: When the player with the worse perception skill (and preferably will save too) is on watch, have him roll a perception check to spot the invisible scout.

3: Have the invisible scout return with a couple of his invisible sorcerer/wizard/witch friends (2nd perception check optional)

4: Cast some nasty enchantments (Dominate, Deep Slumber… )on the offending party member before he can act.

5: Profit

Note: Always have an escape route (Dimensional Door, Expeditious Retreat, Wall of Ice/Stone, etc. ) in case the player spots them or makes his saves.


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Unless you sit down and have a “talk” with your players I don’t think it’s likely that they’ll stop using a tactic that has been successful for them. So you probably will have to do a little tailoring. Even then there are a few strategies that you might want to employ.

Beyond not being able to see each other, I don’t suppose anyone in the party has bothered to invest in the fly skill. So when you slap down that Blade Barrier right in their faces remind then they have to make a DC 15 fly check if they want turn more than 45 degrees or come to a dead stop.

Hitting them with spells such as Gust of Wind, Wind Wall, Control Wind and so on should at least in theory be more effective versus flying opponents. Telekinesis can force mid-air collisions. Depending on how you rule it, mid-air trips can send them plummeting to the ground.

If they insist on always buffing up before a fight, you can trick them into wasting spells on what looks tough but turns out to be easy or non-encounters.

Finally, if all else fails and you want to be really cruel, you can pull the same Invisible Flying Party trick on them.


shallowsoul wrote:
R_Chance wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:


So instead of surrendering, a downed enemy decided to bandage himself to get back into the fight and kill you and your friends. Not even close to evil on your part. In fact, the cleric had it coming.
Actually, his buddy decided to pour a potion down his unconscious throat. "He" wasn't trying to do anything but bleed quietly. Or maybe he was a noisy bleeder, I'm not sure :)
So in all honesty the guy could have had enough and surrendered after the potion revived him.

…or he could have started channeling and killed some party members. Considering that the players already failed to talk him out of attacking them on sight, its questionable he would be very eager to surrender.

I personally wouldn’t hold something like this against my players. While I agree that using a coup de grace on the guy wasn’t a very pleasant or desirable course of action, the player was stuck between a rock and a hard place. There were other options but they had a lot higher chance of failing and getting their friends killed.


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If you’re interested in evil clones you could also try using demonic possession. Just use planer binding to get a shadow demon and have it magic jar the clone. It can work with ghosts too if you can find one that's willing to cooperate.


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You might want to telegraph what you’re about to do by having some NPCs talk about how the “vicious group of assassins” that murdered the king are still in the area. While they might see right through it and slip the noose, they are less likely to be offended if they do get captured.

It also leaves the prospect of the PC’s getting more involved in the story if they decide to actively search for the King’s killers. Incidentally it can be comedy gold if they gather a bunch of clues and don’t realize that they all pointed towards themselves until the last moment.


Ideally the best thing to do is to explain that he is irritating the rest of the group and holding some sort of intervention to get him to stop.

With that said, if he insists on putting his hand on a hot stove then let him, sometimes these lessons have to be learned the hard way. Just warn him ahead of time that he’s getting a bad reputation around town and that he could be in for a world of hurt if keeps up with these stupid stunts. If he complains, ask him what would happen in real life if he went around robbing department stores, picking fights with gangbangers or knifing cops. With a little luck his next character will be wiser.

By the way, I’d also tell the other players what going on so they don’t get caught in the crossfire by trying and help him.


Theoretically, could you do something like enchant an everyday piece of clothing with a +1 bonus and the brawling property?

It wouldn’t technically be “armor” so should slip around class restrictions and while you won’t be using it for the pantry +1 AC bonus (get bracers for that), it’s still a pretty good deal for around 4000 gp.


Your best bet would probably be to go with something with class levels, high dex and the Agile Maneuvers feat. Your little critters probably won’t be choking out a barbarian or a high strength fighter but should be more than capable of giving the rest of the party a run for their money.

Off the top of my head, Grigs would be a good choice. They have naturally high dexterity (in addition to the bonus gained from class levels) and can avoid attacks of opportunity with invisibility.


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I personally wouldn’t allow it, either the item at a low cost or the shieldless shield bonuses. Not only are the rules are pretty consistent when it comes to granting permanent bonuses but by allowing different types, you can run into trouble later on.

With armor, enhancement, deflection, natural armor and dexterity bonuses it’s already pretty easy to get a good AC. By allowing exceptions like this, you run the risk of alienating the other players if they can’t have it, or breaking the balance of the game if the can.

While I do like it when my PCs get creative, if you’re not careful it can easily get out of hand and turn into abuse. Besides, the item creation feats are already pretty strong by letting PC’s get their gear at half cost.


I would use some sort of internal sense motive check, with modifiers based on how they felt about the guy beforehand.

Any way you decide to do it though, you should warn the player beforehand that by using mind control on his own allies, he's playing a very dangerous game. After one successful sense motive check or will saving throw, he should pretty much be marked for death by the offending party and possibly the rest of the crew. Also considering the rather dishonest nature of what he’s doing he shouldn’t expect to be called out on it so much as lynched, stabbed in the back or murdered in his sleep.


Considering that the poisons you’re making would be considered both illegal and deeply immoral in most societies, I think you might run into problems when it comes to getting raw materials and selling your wares. It’s something of a double whammy threat too. The authorities want to arrest you and send you to the gallows for making the stuff, whereas your customers want to shiv you in the back and rob your corpse blind because that’s the type of people they are.


I don't think killing the cavalier's mount is a very good idea.

After the third time you pulled something like this it's likely your PC's, especially the cavalier, will just be irritated at it. Once or twice is fine but after a while it just gets old. That or they'll become paranoid about their possessions and take their horses where ever they go, refusing to ever leave them unattended.

Also, I'd don't how you run your game but for me there is a sort of unwritten rule that you don't do stuff like kill familiars or animal companions "off screen".


To me this just seems to be the reverse of the age old case of the Paladin being picked on for not being lawful good enough.

Besides being inappropriately applied, since Inquisitors are supposed to have more leeway than Clerics and Paladins, it's not exactly what I'd call fun loosing your abilities at the whims of the GM.


Your Druid doesn't necessarily have to be evil to want to kill a chaotic good dragon. Upsetting the balance of nature, promoting too much civilization or being so philosophically opposed to true neutral should be more than enough to earn a place on your hit list.

Even if you want to go with some sort of personal vendetta, you could say that it murdered all of your evil friends. Just think of all of the orphans and widows that your average paladin leaves in their wake.


I consider most of the requirements on that sort of stuff to be pretty loose.

As long as you're not sneaking behind your enemies and stabbing them in the back non-verbal actions are more than enough to get your message across.

Doing something as simple a pointing your sword at them, glaring at them and giving them a thumbs down or motioning them drop their weapons should work.


Lure the Wizard around a corner with discounted arcane items. When she leaves the line of sight of the PCs, the Illusionist impersonates her and has the PCs follow "her" in a random direction.

From there, the cultists kidnap the real wizard and the Illusionist ditches the PCs by turning invisible.


I once read about something like that in a novel about folklore in Feudal Japan. I think the kids (or kits) would mostly take after the mother but might have some minor traits(such as eye or hair color) from the other parent.


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Halfling or Gnome Cavalier riding a boar that always uses bad pig related puns or references (hog wild, pig headed, high on the hog, pig out, hog heaven…).


Use Flesh to Stone on them when they’re asleep, that way they can be stored or hidden pretty safely with a minimum of fuss.

As a bonus they’re significantly less likely to seek revenge on you for being cursed, feebleminded, poisoned, turned into a newt, or held for long periods of time in a silenced or unhallowed area. That is of course assuming that they’re still sane after the experience.


Considering how much noise the average person can make just by falling down or dropping a small object, I’d put it at -1 per foot with circumstance bonuses or penalties depending on what they’re landing on. While the DC is a bit harsh, it’s also pretty difficult to jump from significant heights without making lots of noise.


I’ve found playing characters with glaring weaknesses can be a lot of fun if played right and done mostly for role-playing purposes. Most of the flavor comes from having the character overcome their weaknesses or fail hilariously at otherwise simple and easy tasks.

Having someone with charisma 7 who constantly tries to be the party face (complete with facial ticks, awkward pauses and stuttering) can be pretty good role-playing. The same character being “stoic” and not talking to anyone on the other hand just comes across as power gaming.

More than that, I’d be worried how the rest of the group takes it. Considering how this guy’s points are spread out, it’s pretty obvious that he boosted his Int, Con and Dex at the expense of everything else. With 25 point buy already being pretty generous, letting one player have the equivalent of 32 points for their "good" stats might cause problems, especially if they get resentful of him being more effective than them or want to jump on the min-max bandwagon as well.


You can also throw the Fey Creature template from Bestiary 3 on just about any CR 4 monster you want.


HappyDaze wrote:
Wriggle Wyrm wrote:

You might want to bump the CR up 1 more point since you gave it elite ability scores equivalent to a 12 point buy. It might not seem like much but its ability scores are already very good, effectively making it a lot stronger than all of the “regular” satyr anti-paladins.

Also some monsters have very good natural armor bonuses and special abilities that get exponentially better when adding class levels, magic items and armor. As a general rule I’d tend to error on the side making the CR higher, since monsters like this are genuinely tough and I don’t want my PC’s feeling cheated out of XP when they do bring them down.

The CR increase for adding class levels (excluding NPC classes) specifically includes granting the ability score modifiers I mentioned (+4, +4, +2, +2, 0, -2). They are included with the first class level added at no further adjustment to CR.

As for erring on the side of raising the CR, I feel the exact opposite. PCs in this game are already so optimized that the CR sometimes seems weaker than it should, so I have no problem with being stingy on the CR - that's what this thread is all about.

Oops, it looks like I should have read the bestiary a little more carefully.

With the matter of erring on the side of low CR, I feel very uncomfortable when it comes to using the fine print just to be stingy with XP. This isn’t to say I wouldn’t throw a powerful monster against them, just that I’d want to give them full XP for a tough fight. This of course can get tricky, while things like anti-paladins don’t qualify as key classes and wouldn’t be too bad against a neutral party, they can be pretty rough against a good aligned party.


You might want to bump the CR up 1 more point since you gave it elite ability scores equivalent to a 12 point buy. It might not seem like much but its ability scores are already very good, effectively making it a lot stronger than all of the “regular” satyr anti-paladins.

Also some monsters have very good natural armor bonuses and special abilities that get exponentially better when adding class levels, magic items and armor. As a general rule I’d tend to error on the side making the CR higher, since monsters like this are genuinely tough and I don’t want my PC’s feeling cheated out of XP when they do bring them down.


If it was some sort of creature that was usually evil but could learn and grow, eventually overcoming its base nature, then I would say that’s fine, but not a devil.

As a fiend, it is literally evil that has been distilled, refined and given physical form. If it does any good acts it was only because force was exerted over it, as a ruse to make others relax their guard or to spy for its diabolical overlords.

While it is true that the paladin doesn’t have to smite every single evil creature he sees, I don’t see any reason he would tolerate such an obvious agent of corruption, as small and harmless as they may appear to be.


I’m not a big fan of the Paladin falling from grace and becoming an Anti-paladin, it’s a bit clichéd and reads a too much like bad comic.

A better approach would be for the Paladin to learn the error of his ways and to lead a host of angels in a quest to destroy the unholy abomination that took over his friend’s body. After all, it’s pretty obvious that the rest of the party cast him out because they were (wink, nod) under the influence of the vampire’s domination ability.

For bonus points, have him lead the assault in the middle of the day, so that all the vampire player can do is stew in his coffin, regretting what a stupid character concept he chose.


As a general rule, I wouldn’t summon anything that you couldn’t personally defeat in combat. I seriously doubt 12 Glabrezu and 9 Vroks would take very kindly to being bossed around by some scrawny little mortal.

Another thing to keep in mind, summoning an inherently evil entity that can turn any out of context comment into reality warping event (wish) is usually a bad idea too.


That sort of stuff is deeply frowned upon in dueling circles, so much so that most (non-old western) duels would have each participant bring along a “second”, someone who was obligated to kill those who interfered or duelists who cheated. It’s likely that any friends and family of the deceased would be feeling pretty raw and might be out for revenge. Even some higher-ups in society or dueling commissions could be looking for him, just so they can make an example of anyone who breaks the rules.

As far as the book goes, you could try elaborate rituals or sacrifices to get it to work. Maybe go on fetch quest to get items or materials that are important to any given god. From there, maybe dark prophecies about rising evils or dark perils facing the PC’s in the future. Either way, I’d recommend having them show it to a priest first.


Wall spells are a personal favorite of mine. Not only do they stop the PC’s from following but they can trap them in dungeons or separate the party for some one-on-one taunting.

Also, if your PC’s are that obsessed with tracking down and killing everything, you can really make them pay for it. Give the villain a trap filled escape route, make them cross hazardous areas to get to him or best of all, have his illusion spells do it for him while he laughs maniacally from the shadows.


I think either way has the potential to make a mockery of the law.

Let the murderer off the hook or with I lighter sentence and anyone can commit heinous crimes, so long as the victim’s family is rich enough to have the spell cast.

Charge the murderer under the full force of the law and it creates a contradiction were the by definition “dead” person is not in fact dead. Then there’s the double standard between semi-immortal rich folks and everyone else.

Of course there is also the easy way out. It can be that the authorities just don’t believe the PC’s. All they have is the PC’s word and how could he have been killed when he’s clearly still walking around?


It depends a bit on how your DM plays it. I like to give PC’s a general idea of what the spell does. In the case of charm person, I’d say you feel an unusual amount of goodwill towards a given NPC, before shaking the feeling off and remembering that he’s a jerk.

Regardless of specifics, you should know that some sort of force tried to overcome your mind, but only if you make the save.


Once ran a Gnome Druid named Fether Wayte.


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I once had a DM who liked to overdo environmental and incidental dangers to the point of absurdity. Back to back, I had one of my characters die from smoke inhalation in the aftermath of a fireball spell in a "damp" forest and another drown himself in a 15 foot wide mote.

Another highlight of that campaign was a low level Monk nearly killing himself when he tried to step off a slow moving cart. Needless to say heroism tended to take a back seat to paranoia.


To be fair, look at it from the demon’s point of view. Suppose you’re hanging out in the Abyss, gleefully ripping the innards out of Dretches, when you suddenly get caught by a Planer Binding spell.

Next thing you know, you’re stuck in a magic circle and some shrimpy mortal, with the same CR as you, is demanding that “you” serve “him.” If that's not bad enough, you’re not allowed to twist the heads off any annoying villagers, you can’t keep anything you stole and the lousy cheapskate wants you to work for free. All of this because you flubbed one lousy Charisma check.

At least when you go for one of those Planer Ally spells, you get something back in return. I’m telling you, not many demons (or PCs) could resist the urge twist the terms of the deal a deal like that murder the sniveling little twerp first chance they got.


fictionfan wrote:
You do realize that just about everything that you can summon is weak enough that you could take it down with one spell?

With Lesser Planer Binding and when it’s trapped in the circle, yes. But with regular Planar Binding you can easily summon a 12 HD Glabezu, which is more than capable of ripping a 13th level wizard in half in a single round. That’s to say nothing of the horrors the Greater Planar Binding can bring forth. And when its out of the circle, all bets may be off.

Considering these creatures are as a rule very smart, cunning, powerful and inherently evil, its not a good idea treating them like disposable hirelings.


I personally wouldn’t be so cavalier when it comes to summoning outsiders, especially evil ones. While they are in many ways slaves under influence of your spell, they still retain a measure of free will. Even if it the binding’s successful, the smarter ones by their very nature are liable to twist and corrupt the meaning of your words or find technicalities around them.

Telling a demon to slaughter everyone inside village is all fine and well, but if you show up to see its handy work, then you’re fair game too. It also doesn’t preclude the demon from getting you in trouble, by telling the survivors huddled in the fields, that so-and-so the evil demonologist sent it to kill everyone "inside" the village.

The spell also says an outsider can always refuse an impossible or unreasonable command. So telling an Archon to go around killing paladins and burning down orphanages would go against it “raison d'etre” as a physical embodiment of lawful good.


I’d argue that disguise isn’t just how you look but how you sound, carry yourself and generally mimic someone else’s behavior. With a lot of work, you should be able to look like someone else and get a circumstance bonus, but that’s about it. The real test would come when you have to “act” the part.

For example, if your dainty old grandmother suddenly started speaking with a baritone voice and a thick Scottish accent, you’d know something was very wrong, no matter how much it looks like her.