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Auke Teeninga wrote:
cool .. thank for the answer ... and good to knowI know that has been a long time complaint from a lot of Con GM's ... just not enough time to prep
this is a thread about infernal healing and fast healing
not Flight,Pounce, Wildshape, Beast Shape, Plant Shape, Form of the Dragon, Barbarians, Sorcerers, or any other Straw-Man you Want to introduce
the problem Chess is 95%+ of your entire argument is a Straw-man and Im ashamed with myself for falling for it .. I should have realized much Sooner that that is what you were doing
by RAW Infernal healing Meets All Critera for being a Magical Healing
ya know, if you have to resort to all caps or interesting symbols it might be time to take a step back from posting. It's just people's opinions and posting it doesn't make it correct.
sorry for the use of interesting Symbols ... those were aimed at myself since I lost an edit I had been working on for a while ... didnt know the site had an hour limit on edit
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
Forgive me I and allow me to Reclarify
Mine and chess's involvement in this is Seeded in PFS is what I Should have said - it is a rules issue to be sure and due to the involvement of PFS requires a different type of diligence in debate since we should all be using the same Rules
and yes .. it should be that simple .. but the argument that would be used against it is "Thats 1 way of getting natural healing" but yes - I agree with you
$!@#$%!@ Lost my edit ... ugh what a pisser
as for Flight -
Chess Pwn wrote:
Yes I understand that you are in no way alluding to the fast healing being a separate effect
the Spell Creates all 3 Effects Simultaneously, and as we have discussed you cannot end 1 piece without the others
- interesting Note .. I'll have to check if there are any other abilities from this particular book that grant Fast healing ... that would Solve the soon to come Editing Error argument
your Dismissing evidence because it does not suit your argument
and yes ... AMF is Basically the breakdown as stated here
CRB pg 221 wrote:
well an SU is only effected by Anti Magic Areas so yes
By RAW no matter how you get it or what it gives you if an SU is Suppressed (since it cant be dispelled) you cannot use it...
and for the Record - you still have to make Fly Checks with magical Flight not sure where you got that Idea that you didnt
Chess Pwn wrote:
Exactly ... the Source is Magical therefore you Loose them because how you gained them is no longer Valid
Regardless of how or Why in an AMF you cant use them
Chess Pwn wrote:
Allow me to Clarifyyour statment that it is an EX is Absolutely Irelavent to me - the Ability is an SU on paper in the book its in Reads XXXX(Su) - thats all I care about for the purpose of this Discussion because when it comes to AMF thats all that matters
Chess Pwn wrote:
you are saying that 2 parts of the Spell are Magical and 1 is not your ignoring that the person Cast on can "Feel the Evil of the Magic" (says it Right there in the Spell description that its Magical)
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
So I guess no one noted the part where I pointed out that Fast Healing works like Natural Healing, which is healing from Rest, which is also affected by the Fast Healer feat...
no I sawsad as it is this is a PFS Argument and as much as I hate to say it the Spell Specifically calls out Rest ... not Natural healing and all Natural healing says in the crb is Rest ... then we have the line
Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing which really does nothing
Chess Pwn wrote:
the logic of the argument is that fast healing is an EX and thus Not Subject to AMF and thereby Preventing iot from benifitting from the Fast healer feat thats the rabbit hole we are exploringand the spell Does not say "While active" your words again
the inclusion of a Duration to to tie it to a spell
by RAW - the definition of a Spell is a "one time Magical Effect" that is pretty clear cut to me .... no matter what the Spell does it is a 1 time Magical Effect, regardless of how many effects there are - they are magical, no matter what the effects are - they are magical
you Cannot have it both Ways
you Said it yourself - its an SU ...We already have precedence for Loosing access to things due to outside circumstances (ability damage causing you to no longer qualify for a feat or Loosing access to a feat causing you to loose a whole tree)
since I've tried to answer this Multiple times I will ask you ...
Are SU's suppressed in an AMF?
you Cannot have it Both Ways - I am Saying that if you cease to qualify to use them then they become useless
the Ability is listed as an SU
Dragon disciple Sorcerer - Wings are SU .. enter an AMF you would cease to be able to Control them since they are granted by an SU
all until you leave the AMF thats the distinction between an SP/SU and EX/Natural
Chess Pwn wrote:
when you enter an AMF the spell stops granting you fast healing. Since you no longer have the EX ability of fast healing you don't heal any more. NOT that your fast healing was stopped by the AMF but the spell granting it to you.
you cant have it both Ways .. Infernal healing is either Magical or its not - the Spell gives all 3 parts ... not 1 and 1 and 1 as soon as you say its Not Magical you are Separating the effectsPart 1 you gain Fast Healing 1
Part 2 Cannot Repair Damage from Silver or Good alligned
Part 3 Detects as evil for the Duration and can sense the Evil of the Magic
Part 3 alone Classifies it as Magical
Like the animal shape into a hawk. If you say that the caster is using the Hawks wings to EX fly then going into a AMF doesn't turn off the flight but turns off the spell that was granting the EX ability.
Flight EX or SU only Cares if it ends in an AMF thats it Look at the Rules for Flight all it Says is this
If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists. -
But if you say that the factor is if that ability is removed by whatever reason in an AMF then that means that animal shape's flight is magical flight and not restricted by EX flight rules.
the portion of Flight that would apply to "EX" status is this A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action, and Maneuverability Rulesthe Fly Skill only says this
You are skilled at flying, either through the use of wings or magic
and yes .. pretty much AMF Suppresses all SU and SP PERIOD ... no exceptions
I've only met one person that said that an animal shape's flight is magical flight. But it's spell that has SR too.
Yup that was Me .. and you got that answer because you pushed me for an on the Spot By RAW answer - and my answer was Yes because your Wild shape is suppressed so you loose flight... did you have wings before ? ok that's a different Storyand your Confusing EX with
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. which is a summarily Ill exposed Catagory Just like Natural Healing
its an SU ability Not EX - SU abilities are inherently Magic by their interaction with an Antimagic Field, and the ability States how its an SU so I dont know what your trying to accomplish here
Like are all movement granting spells, are they suddenly granting SP flight/burrow/earth glide/ since it "doesn't technically reference the monster ability?"
SP or SU - since its granted by a Spell and therefore subject to AMF
Is the barbarians pounce from Greater beast totem or the wings from Dragon Totem Wings, granted from SU rage powesr, explicitly saying "he pounce special ability" and "wings that grant her a fly speed equal to her base speed" granting SU pounce and SU flight? It would turn off in a AMF. And it seems that's your platform for saying that fast healing is magical. I don't think most people would say that he's getting a special new ability of SU pounce or that the wings are granting SU flight but that the rage power is granting the normal EX pounce and EX flight that that the AMF is stopping the rage powers, not the actual pounce or flight.
its not EX Flight ... the SU gives you Wings Which Cease to Function in an AMF - EX by their Definition Would Continue to Function in an AMF ... and so would Natural Abilities
Except in the Eidolons Case it is an SU and NOWHERE in the description does it say Ex ... that's YOUR Words Not RAW
If there was an ability that said "you can keep one effect that normally turns off in an AMF on" that the fast healing granted by the spell would turn off since it was magical healing if you kept the spell on? (cause remember the spell is giving you "the new SP/SU/magical ability" fast healing, not that the spell IS fast healing) so if you picked the spell you'd detect as evil and be being granted the magical fast healing, but that the fast healing would be turn off? And obviously if you picked the magical fast healing the spell stops, which stops the granting of this magical healing, and thus you wasted your choice?
you've Round-aboutly highlighted the Conundrum ...if Fast Healing is Not Magical then it would Remain active During the AMF (as per an Ex or Natural abilities) and everything else tied to the spell would end
Would you say that if the sorcerer/barbarian/polymorphed creature picked the bloodline power/rage power/spell that they'd have the wings but be unable to fly since it'd be considered magical flight, Since the ability normally would have been gone in the AMF?
if they are SU then yes .. the Wings would disappear Since they are Granted by an SU and they would no longer be able to Fly... if they NATURALLY had Wings ... then no
Or are you proposing that all those abilities that behave oh so similarly to this situation, where it's seemingly a SP/SU granting an EX ability are doing that but that fast healing is somehow the special exception?
if they are an SU or SP or Granted By an SU or SP then yes it ceases Functioning because it was Granted by what is Magic... and that's the argument being used against it being magical healing ... not my argument... Hell Look at the description of the Spell itself ... it Says they can feel the evil of the MAGIC
Like I really can't see how you can see these and say "Yes this spell is granting magical fast healing ability", and also say, "No those spells and SU abilities are granting the normal EX versions of the ability." And not think anything of it.
Ive never said that ... I have said if its an SU or SP it is Supressed by an AMF ... Periodthe logical conclusion of this debate is as soon as you start calling the fast healing Seperate from the rest of the spell - thus breaking the spell into its Components that since its an EX as per what people are saying it would continue to function in an AMF
the Fast healing working in an AMF is a thought excersise to highlight what is wrong with this argument
this Whole argument on every level can be broken down to 1 question
Chess Pwn wrote:
interesting that TECHNICALLY IH doesnt Reference the Universal monster Rules ... its the side of the Community that says it doesnt Work that is referencing it
the farther I dig into this the more I believe that Fast healing given by Infernal healing is not an EX
does the fast healing end when you walk into an AMF
if your fine saying that the fast healing Stays after entering an AMF then sure I can get behind your argument but Dollars to Donuts noone has that opinion ... and you really cant have it both ways
someione tried to use the polymorph into a hawk argument and thats lead me to believe this is much more binary than its being made ... the interesting thing about the flight argument is not about Wings .. its all about " If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists"
same goes for EX, SU. SP ... do they end in an AMF ...
the natural healing Entry on pg. 191 confuses things more since it only lists 1 Type of Natural healing and I cant find any other definition of natural healing anywhere else in the books
as for the Regenerate Spell it doesn't GIVE you regeneration ability so without debate it would work
Infernal healing is further Convoluted by the fact that it allows SR... EX and SU don't
I think theres to many markers pointing away from an Ex to support it BEING one
I've been on both sides of this in the last 48 hours and after seeing that Eidolons Fast healing are not (Ex) but (Su)
Fast Healing (Su): The eidolon's body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1. The eidolon heals 1 point of damage per round, just like via natural healing.~
I think the argument that all fast Healing is (Ex) is a dead and redundant argument. If there had not been another example of Fast healing being (Sp) or (Su) I probably would not have sided for it working
Infernal healing is a Conjuration (healing) (Evil) Spell
in the Rules for healing on page 191 of the Players Handbook
since its a spell it falls into magical healing because of "Various abilities and spells"
yes it would help if it Told us what TYPE of Fast healing provided Particularly since the ISWG was released After the APG
By RAW All it says is fast healing .. nothing more .. nothing less not (Ex) or (Su) and as soon as you start applying those to it you are venturing into RAI
I realize your at GenCon but how would you handle this
a large building is the location of a Hallow and Forbidance Spells
My initial thought is that the Hallow would suppress the desecration since they are in the same Realm of functionality but after readinfg Im doubting it (since its a constant effect)
not entirely true .... the wording is "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind" not the creatureso 5 ft base and up to 20 ft Wide at the top
as for the rest yes ... protection and resist were both in play so this wasnt a particularly deadly encounter ... just a resource spender ... tho now that I see I forgot it does double damage to undead ... the Vampire caught in the Whirlwind should have been in a LOT Worse trouble
had a situation in a game last night
now while not particularly dangerous due to the spells that were up at the time it brought up a very interesting rules discussion for future situations
this was in a Way of the Wicked Campaign
the Encounter was with a Peri the creature used its whirlwind dance and was able to successfully suck one PC up into the Firey Twister
it then started using its Wall of Fire SLA's and put 2 of them down and started dragging the unfortunate soul back and forth through the walls of fire ... this was not a planned tactic ... but one that evolved on the fly
my question in the end is ... if you are forcibly moved through a wall of fire (in this case 2) with the possibility of dragging him through each wall 2x in 1 round ... does the wall do damage each time ... my logic says yes .. but my OMFG this is super OP says no
I am having a map Issue
on Day 217 one of the events is the following
2-20 The Pillar marked ‘B’ collapses smashing into the
my issues with this the ceiling is 50 ft
the boggards assult on the sanctum
Since without those stairs - they simply cannot make it to the sanctum
any sort of advice on this ?
first of all I do feel that this spell probably should be in the realm of a 5th level spell .. trading Area for the casting time ... but that's not my call
secondly.....k why are we having this argument at all
Players WILL break encounters - we know that
Think back to the story of a Wizard trying to use Dominate person on a particularly high level caster from a season 4 scenario
yes we as GM's have a limited amount of response that we can use
yes .. we as human beings have a right to complain
but the farther I read into this thread the more it looks to be becoming adversarial (i.e. GM's vs Players) Unfortunately this is a growing trend that Ive seen on the forums .. particularly in these ban this or that threads (alter summon monster aside)
PFS is about everyone having fun ...
is this 1 spell Ruining the fun of GM's So bad that it requires this level of targeted response ?
if the answer to either of these is no then again ... why are we debating this
John Compton wrote:
I am REALLY Suprised they have kept her around after how many times she is mercessily slaughtered at the hands of the aspis agents in that 1 scenario
John Compton wrote:
if you know that the players/PCs are critical of their venture-captains for perceived tight-fistedness, lack of empathy, or incompetence
lol. my players always complained about Hakeem and the baubles for his daughters
the 1 story about this thing that I remember well was at an online con
in GM Chat a message comes across that a GM had TPK'd the entire group Save 1 in Bonekeep 2
the 1 happened to be a songbird of Doom
the player made the choice that they were going to try to finish the scenario Solo
got to the final room and had to run away because he got mind fogged
the point is he made it over 1/2 the remaining way in that monstrosity Solo
now yes they nerfed Mouser .. but the ring was a large part of it
I covered androids in my previous post ... there is 1 in PFS - it was a charity auction boon at Gencon in season 6
fair enough ... sorry I was on my phone when I was posting this ... there were a few other possibilities I saw when looking at the race list that MIGHT Work - I'll skip the obvious "No's"
Damphir - have been out of Rotation for what 4 years now ? they were allowed with the beginner box bash
Orcs - would love to see it but not gonna happen
Aasimar, Tiefling.... Doubt they want to go down that road again
Fetchling - very limited boon run - so no
Kobolds - would be cool but again - I dont see it
Elementalkin - these I suppose are possible ... there are So many boons out for them tho that I wonder if it would be a slap in the face
Changlings - MIGHT work - tho the flavor might be a bit wierd
Merfolk - the 5 ft. base land speed is a no go
Strix- this is an interesting one to think about with the heavy cheliax stuff as of late
Vanaras - I see these as the same category as catfolk ... Prolly a gencon charity boon
I am curious on Room A11
the description of the room is well done ... however mechanically I wonder if something was overlooked with spiked chains lying about the room floor everywhere that spin up and start shredding people , was the intent to make the floor difficult Terrain ... or function like Caltrops ? the description certainly leads to that Thought process
when I ran it I had a hafling Cavalier wanting to charge around to damage the mechanisms... this was after the chains had spun up
1st I am not a huge advocate of retroactive banning of anything but ...
allow me to compare this to another Item that was banned
while the bracers only benefited characters with bows / x-bows .. a similarity can be drawn to any character that uses a dex to damage build in melee - with an emphasis on monks
so yes I agree this should have a ban consideration
Martin Weil wrote:
I actually think this is incorrect ... the squeezing rules were quoted above in total ... and nowhere does it say you cant end your turn
Like I said before it would be easier if squeezing was considered a condition (which I think it really should be TBH)
Sadly I can see both sides of the argument ... Dragon style specifically calls out Obstacles and Difficult Terrain ... not "Hampered Movement" ....unfortunately the rule-set does itself no favors on this since squeezing is not a condition which makes this a real Muck storm
if it were me making the call I would agree that squeezing is not covered by dragon style ... but not without some serious reservations, including being open to correction later as well as an apology to any player I ruled that way against ...
Unfortunately Squeezing isn't even considered hampered movement so that argument isn't even valid and as such I would consider it not "a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement"
Ninja is legal but has some Terrible Glaring holes in it
1 (and probably the least) no trapfinding
I played a Ninja ... once I hit level 8 (Ninja 6 Fighter 2 - very feat heavy build) the loss of evasion was too painful, I ended up taking 2 levels of Monk and a level of Trapmaster Ranger in order to fix the issues with it
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
Much appreciated ... I can now contact people about scheduling it
Auke Teeninga wrote:
forgive me but Im hesitant untill I see something in a public forum ... just the way I work :-(
the problem I have with this is .. as has been stated a few times before
2 - yes Herolab is Fallable and for the most part people know it but they also are smart enough to pick up on what the issue is
3 - if you say you cannot have Herolab at the table ... then how far off is the "No Herolab generated Character sheets at the table" because thats the logical next step and TBH not very far from the mark
we already have more than enough of the "Not at my table" the following are exmples
the I don't like that Option Discussion,
it almost seems that we have gone to a place of entitlements where for whatever reason can be come up with you can have your character / player whatever prevented from playing at a public table - Note I didn't say WOULD BE or WILL BE.... but CAN or COULD BE
sure these are all separate issues ... but as far as I can see a symptom of a larger problem ..
Where does it end.....
because every week there seems to be a new thread or complaint someone has with a tool or resource that's being used
and true we don't see a lot of it in practice but IMHO the threat of it is enough to discourage some players past and present from returning or continuing (and yes I know players that have quit over these politics)
and thats just what this is, Politics .. IMHO Politics have no place in PFS ... We have the Rules by which we play by, nothing more and nothing less, so why are we Trying to make up more rules aside from what we are provided with
I agree with all of these - aside from the trip builds (I have one and effectiveness drops to nill at a certain point)
allow me to add -
unfortunatly since we dont know the specifics of why this was removed as a legal option we cant debate it, we can only speculate