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I backed up on that after I read the entries
and digging deeper I Found the Relevant part on skill checks .. and I believe it is something we veteran players take for granted and simply look at and move on from
When you make a skill check, you roll 1d20 and then add your ranks and the appropriate ability score modifier to the result of this check.
the reason it doesn't work is the Simple "Progression of math"
d20 + ability + ranks + Bonus.... Rather than the
Skill = Ranks + ability (+ d20 + Bonus)
tho this thread has defintly brought up something else for me in a home game
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
there aren't other classes that get sneak attack at level 1 I believe.
there are several Prc's that do ... but I know thats not what your looking at
with Sap Master and all the PRC's at 11th I think I got up to 16d6 sneak - all theorycraft tho and not sure how effective this type of character would actually be
the main issue is the depth of feats that need to be selected to make all this work
1 - Refers to EX and SU (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form - Not Feats and Unarmed strike not an EX, SU, Movement type, or Natural attack
2 - No opposable Thumbs Needed to Use IUS ... I could Cut my thumbs off and still Punch - this is also from the monkey see monkey do Blog which handles Animal companions and familiars ... NOT polymorphed PC's
3 - not a Game Rule ... but RL Physics and even so .. they have feet and knees as well
then I ask you 1 last time ... and until you do I consider this conversation done ... Provide Source that says you can't
sorry I went out to have some fun this evening
yes your position is exactly where my argument against it lies ... however if you read the archetype it does not state anywhere a requirement to worship Irori - other than the in the Name of the Archtype itself and the fluff text - it Just lacks the Words "Must Worship Irori"
Animal - yes .... but we aren't talking about an animal here are we ?we are talking about someone intentionally wild shaping into an animal ...
and again ... as has been stated - you don't need thumbs for unarmed strike
As per Monk the following forms are listed "fist, elbows, knees, and feet." granted Head is not mentioned but in truth it doesn't need to be because by Following your Logic we have to ask -
1) do Songbirds have ANY of the above mentioned Body parts
A) by Using Anatomy we know that they have 3 of the 4 ... Feet, Elbow, and Knees ... so whats the problem ? they have the bodyparts required by Monk to make unarmed strikes
the Feat Improved unarmed strike is even more vague
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.
Like I said ... Lots of people Hate this build and the Idea (myself included) but it is legal and when you say "you cant make unarmed strikes while in bird form" (even after weve proven that you can time and time again) you are then just targeting the PC
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
or what about Flying with magic ? since that is impossible and Physics say that we as humans dont have the ability to fly as a species (our bones arent hollow, no feathers etc.) I suppose if I find that unreasonable I can just disallow it from my table
*Sarcasam off* no ... we have the rules ... they are what they are .... we have Venture officers and agents to adjudicate these matters when GM's take hard line stances on things that are Clearly within the rules
we may not like it ... but we play by the rules and if we dont want to play by the rules of PFS then we dont have to play PFS
I personally HATE this Ring and the Fox form Mouser cheese build that nearly Solo'd bonekeep 2 -
oh and your entire Argument breaks if they have a Feral Combat Training
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
your only reason against a "headbutt" is Real world Physics
we have quoted many reasons why it works - citing Rules and Items
Natural attacks are not (Ex) ... Unarmed attacks are not (Ex)
and dragons dont exist.... people cant Conjure Beings from other planes ... Create Balls of explody fire from their fingertips ... instantaneous heal others with a touch .... this is a fantasy game .. we play by the rules we are given, and as PFS we do not Deviate from those rules ... as soon as you begin saying "you cant do that because of X" when the rules directly support things like this happening ... you are no longer playing PFS .. you are playing Homebrew ..
you know what I meant BNWsince were talking about Speech lets relegate it to speech requirements
Sure Silence metamagic would get past lots ... and while Psychics are considered Spell-casters ... I don't think of them as such ....
Spellcasting is a class feature that requires Speech - Druids get around this with Wild Spell so yes - I would say that Spell casting (Being a class feature requiring a verbal component) would be Nullified by The Ring(there is a debate if wild spell would work with the ring since its not "Wild Shaping" but that's beyond the scope here)
SLA's would not be invalidated because those are not dependant on form (no verbal / Somatic or Material)
I digress because I used the wrong terminology... loosing access was incorrect (this is what I get for writing a post in the middle of a fleet battle on eve) I should have said "Loose the ability to use the feats"
and technically if you Polymorph into a tiny bird ... I could see the bird flying around with a tiny Bastard sword clutched in its claws (tho even SoS Pads wont scrub that image from my brain)
polymorphing doesn't cause you to loose the feat but Improved unarmed strike doesnt require specific body parts ... you have a head and feet (balled up claws)
why I said technically and TBH I would say it is horridly overpriced it has more power than the old bracers of falcons aim (permenant 1st level spell) which was banned until it was changed to 1 min / day of a level 1 spell... this is 70 min a day of a watered down 6th level spell
The Only Star wrote:
Most Feats do not list (EX) after them so your statement is incorrect (Im having a hard time picking any out that do but that doesnt mean they dont exist)By RAW the only way you can Say that a polymorphed PC Looses access to feats is if they list (Ex) AND if they require an original form
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function
Natural attacks and unarmed Strikes are Entirely different things because they can be combined into a single attack routine...
they have also said you can flurry with 1 weapon so your "1 attack" can be flurried with if you have the Feat (Feral combat training IIRC)
anything else is GM Arbitration based on not liking something ....
Yes this ring Should be banned .. but until it is - legal is legal ...
and yes I know the history of this build Very well ... I also know the level of people that have gone over it in an attempt to prove it that it was illegal, and the only thing that was questionable was an aparent diety specific prestige class (Or archtype) with a Deity specific Trait (Different Dietys / pantheons)
as has been suggested .. its not about the mechanics ... but about the Item which is Grossly under-priced.. Fox form does 80% of the build fine .... but the beast shape 4(Technically) 7x a day, and +1 deflection bonus for4k ... is absurd
improved unarmed strike is a feat (in this case granted by a class) ...Not a Class Feature ...
so sure ... a Thrush does 1d2-5 Based on its strength
again ... polymorphed Creatures do NOT Loose their feats
Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
my guess is "Play by Proxy" its the same Idea as Magic Jar only less powerful
Kevin Willis wrote:
Like I say I don't play alchemists but unless your playing a rapid bomb alchemist I am starting to wonder why I ever would
Kevin Willis wrote:
Dont play alchemists so this is my mistake ...Learn something new every day
Kevin Willis wrote:
Each way wont matter ... however yes that travel could be an issue but is another easy thing to fix - 2 PA for a Wand of Mount or 2 Scrolls of Communal Mount at and have it Hustle (~10 miles in an hour ) leaving 5hrs+ Change(Im shorting the overland movment of the mount spell for saftey)
Now Granted if hes NOT Taking time to Consider the issues then ya sure ...and it sounds like he is keeping the duration accounted for
one other thing to think of - Rounds are 6 Seconds in game time and Most times a Round takes 5+ Minutes to complete Real time so you have to look at the amount of time spent in Combat During bonekeep .. and by my estimation its about 75% having run it 2x and played once so the 5 hours of Play time is condensed into 1 hour 15 min Actual time (pushing that up to 2 hours would make sense)
Again I am only looking at the Mechanical Issues of this
so a quick answer for Skinsend Duration issue
and as for the Skin Dying bit Cost of a Regenerate Spell is 3PP which is a way to get your skin back
I guess I don't see the problem with the mechanics of the character
the argumentative bit is something else tho
prepping this for an event ... and ran accross something
there are 2 options listed for manifesting the shade
1 - disperse into multiple bodies
2 - form 1 single elemental
3 - if they succeed at all the bluff / sleight of hand stuff they cause her to manifest as if they had beaten more haunts as the surogates
4- as 3 but manifest as the aggregate
however without the technologist feat they can only disperse the elemental but with the AI Core they technically "have" the technologist feat
so wouldnt they ALWAYS have the choice of how to manifest her ?
Also a question about the Axe in case the PC's don't turn it over
Auke Teeninga wrote:
cool .. thank for the answer ... and good to knowI know that has been a long time complaint from a lot of Con GM's ... just not enough time to prep
this is a thread about infernal healing and fast healing
not Flight,Pounce, Wildshape, Beast Shape, Plant Shape, Form of the Dragon, Barbarians, Sorcerers, or any other Straw-Man you Want to introduce
the problem Chess is 95%+ of your entire argument is a Straw-man and Im ashamed with myself for falling for it .. I should have realized much Sooner that that is what you were doing
by RAW Infernal healing Meets All Critera for being a Magical Healing
ya know, if you have to resort to all caps or interesting symbols it might be time to take a step back from posting. It's just people's opinions and posting it doesn't make it correct.
sorry for the use of interesting Symbols ... those were aimed at myself since I lost an edit I had been working on for a while ... didnt know the site had an hour limit on edit
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
Forgive me I and allow me to Reclarify
Mine and chess's involvement in this is Seeded in PFS is what I Should have said - it is a rules issue to be sure and due to the involvement of PFS requires a different type of diligence in debate since we should all be using the same Rules
and yes .. it should be that simple .. but the argument that would be used against it is "Thats 1 way of getting natural healing" but yes - I agree with you
$!@#$%!@ Lost my edit ... ugh what a pisser
as for Flight -
Chess Pwn wrote:
Yes I understand that you are in no way alluding to the fast healing being a separate effect
the Spell Creates all 3 Effects Simultaneously, and as we have discussed you cannot end 1 piece without the others
- interesting Note .. I'll have to check if there are any other abilities from this particular book that grant Fast healing ... that would Solve the soon to come Editing Error argument
your Dismissing evidence because it does not suit your argument
and yes ... AMF is Basically the breakdown as stated here
CRB pg 221 wrote:
well an SU is only effected by Anti Magic Areas so yes
By RAW no matter how you get it or what it gives you if an SU is Suppressed (since it cant be dispelled) you cannot use it...
and for the Record - you still have to make Fly Checks with magical Flight not sure where you got that Idea that you didnt
Chess Pwn wrote:
Exactly ... the Source is Magical therefore you Loose them because how you gained them is no longer Valid
Regardless of how or Why in an AMF you cant use them
Chess Pwn wrote:
Allow me to Clarifyyour statment that it is an EX is Absolutely Irelavent to me - the Ability is an SU on paper in the book its in Reads XXXX(Su) - thats all I care about for the purpose of this Discussion because when it comes to AMF thats all that matters
Chess Pwn wrote:
you are saying that 2 parts of the Spell are Magical and 1 is not your ignoring that the person Cast on can "Feel the Evil of the Magic" (says it Right there in the Spell description that its Magical)
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
So I guess no one noted the part where I pointed out that Fast Healing works like Natural Healing, which is healing from Rest, which is also affected by the Fast Healer feat...
no I sawsad as it is this is a PFS Argument and as much as I hate to say it the Spell Specifically calls out Rest ... not Natural healing and all Natural healing says in the crb is Rest ... then we have the line
Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing which really does nothing
Chess Pwn wrote:
the logic of the argument is that fast healing is an EX and thus Not Subject to AMF and thereby Preventing iot from benifitting from the Fast healer feat thats the rabbit hole we are exploringand the spell Does not say "While active" your words again
the inclusion of a Duration to to tie it to a spell
by RAW - the definition of a Spell is a "one time Magical Effect" that is pretty clear cut to me .... no matter what the Spell does it is a 1 time Magical Effect, regardless of how many effects there are - they are magical, no matter what the effects are - they are magical
you Cannot have it both Ways
you Said it yourself - its an SU ...We already have precedence for Loosing access to things due to outside circumstances (ability damage causing you to no longer qualify for a feat or Loosing access to a feat causing you to loose a whole tree)
since I've tried to answer this Multiple times I will ask you ...
Are SU's suppressed in an AMF?
you Cannot have it Both Ways - I am Saying that if you cease to qualify to use them then they become useless
the Ability is listed as an SU
Dragon disciple Sorcerer - Wings are SU .. enter an AMF you would cease to be able to Control them since they are granted by an SU
all until you leave the AMF thats the distinction between an SP/SU and EX/Natural
Chess Pwn wrote:
when you enter an AMF the spell stops granting you fast healing. Since you no longer have the EX ability of fast healing you don't heal any more. NOT that your fast healing was stopped by the AMF but the spell granting it to you.
you cant have it both Ways .. Infernal healing is either Magical or its not - the Spell gives all 3 parts ... not 1 and 1 and 1 as soon as you say its Not Magical you are Separating the effectsPart 1 you gain Fast Healing 1
Part 2 Cannot Repair Damage from Silver or Good alligned
Part 3 Detects as evil for the Duration and can sense the Evil of the Magic
Part 3 alone Classifies it as Magical
Like the animal shape into a hawk. If you say that the caster is using the Hawks wings to EX fly then going into a AMF doesn't turn off the flight but turns off the spell that was granting the EX ability.
Flight EX or SU only Cares if it ends in an AMF thats it Look at the Rules for Flight all it Says is this
If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists. -
But if you say that the factor is if that ability is removed by whatever reason in an AMF then that means that animal shape's flight is magical flight and not restricted by EX flight rules.
the portion of Flight that would apply to "EX" status is this A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action, and Maneuverability Rulesthe Fly Skill only says this
You are skilled at flying, either through the use of wings or magic
and yes .. pretty much AMF Suppresses all SU and SP PERIOD ... no exceptions
I've only met one person that said that an animal shape's flight is magical flight. But it's spell that has SR too.
Yup that was Me .. and you got that answer because you pushed me for an on the Spot By RAW answer - and my answer was Yes because your Wild shape is suppressed so you loose flight... did you have wings before ? ok that's a different Storyand your Confusing EX with
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. which is a summarily Ill exposed Catagory Just like Natural Healing
its an SU ability Not EX - SU abilities are inherently Magic by their interaction with an Antimagic Field, and the ability States how its an SU so I dont know what your trying to accomplish here
Like are all movement granting spells, are they suddenly granting SP flight/burrow/earth glide/ since it "doesn't technically reference the monster ability?"
SP or SU - since its granted by a Spell and therefore subject to AMF
Is the barbarians pounce from Greater beast totem or the wings from Dragon Totem Wings, granted from SU rage powesr, explicitly saying "he pounce special ability" and "wings that grant her a fly speed equal to her base speed" granting SU pounce and SU flight? It would turn off in a AMF. And it seems that's your platform for saying that fast healing is magical. I don't think most people would say that he's getting a special new ability of SU pounce or that the wings are granting SU flight but that the rage power is granting the normal EX pounce and EX flight that that the AMF is stopping the rage powers, not the actual pounce or flight.
its not EX Flight ... the SU gives you Wings Which Cease to Function in an AMF - EX by their Definition Would Continue to Function in an AMF ... and so would Natural Abilities
Except in the Eidolons Case it is an SU and NOWHERE in the description does it say Ex ... that's YOUR Words Not RAW
If there was an ability that said "you can keep one effect that normally turns off in an AMF on" that the fast healing granted by the spell would turn off since it was magical healing if you kept the spell on? (cause remember the spell is giving you "the new SP/SU/magical ability" fast healing, not that the spell IS fast healing) so if you picked the spell you'd detect as evil and be being granted the magical fast healing, but that the fast healing would be turn off? And obviously if you picked the magical fast healing the spell stops, which stops the granting of this magical healing, and thus you wasted your choice?
you've Round-aboutly highlighted the Conundrum ...if Fast Healing is Not Magical then it would Remain active During the AMF (as per an Ex or Natural abilities) and everything else tied to the spell would end
Would you say that if the sorcerer/barbarian/polymorphed creature picked the bloodline power/rage power/spell that they'd have the wings but be unable to fly since it'd be considered magical flight, Since the ability normally would have been gone in the AMF?
if they are SU then yes .. the Wings would disappear Since they are Granted by an SU and they would no longer be able to Fly... if they NATURALLY had Wings ... then no
Or are you proposing that all those abilities that behave oh so similarly to this situation, where it's seemingly a SP/SU granting an EX ability are doing that but that fast healing is somehow the special exception?
if they are an SU or SP or Granted By an SU or SP then yes it ceases Functioning because it was Granted by what is Magic... and that's the argument being used against it being magical healing ... not my argument... Hell Look at the description of the Spell itself ... it Says they can feel the evil of the MAGIC
Like I really can't see how you can see these and say "Yes this spell is granting magical fast healing ability", and also say, "No those spells and SU abilities are granting the normal EX versions of the ability." And not think anything of it.
Ive never said that ... I have said if its an SU or SP it is Supressed by an AMF ... Periodthe logical conclusion of this debate is as soon as you start calling the fast healing Seperate from the rest of the spell - thus breaking the spell into its Components that since its an EX as per what people are saying it would continue to function in an AMF
the Fast healing working in an AMF is a thought excersise to highlight what is wrong with this argument
this Whole argument on every level can be broken down to 1 question
Chess Pwn wrote:
interesting that TECHNICALLY IH doesnt Reference the Universal monster Rules ... its the side of the Community that says it doesnt Work that is referencing it
the farther I dig into this the more I believe that Fast healing given by Infernal healing is not an EX
does the fast healing end when you walk into an AMF
if your fine saying that the fast healing Stays after entering an AMF then sure I can get behind your argument but Dollars to Donuts noone has that opinion ... and you really cant have it both ways
someione tried to use the polymorph into a hawk argument and thats lead me to believe this is much more binary than its being made ... the interesting thing about the flight argument is not about Wings .. its all about " If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists"
same goes for EX, SU. SP ... do they end in an AMF ...
the natural healing Entry on pg. 191 confuses things more since it only lists 1 Type of Natural healing and I cant find any other definition of natural healing anywhere else in the books
as for the Regenerate Spell it doesn't GIVE you regeneration ability so without debate it would work
Infernal healing is further Convoluted by the fact that it allows SR... EX and SU don't
I think theres to many markers pointing away from an Ex to support it BEING one
I've been on both sides of this in the last 48 hours and after seeing that Eidolons Fast healing are not (Ex) but (Su)
Fast Healing (Su): The eidolon's body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1. The eidolon heals 1 point of damage per round, just like via natural healing.~
I think the argument that all fast Healing is (Ex) is a dead and redundant argument. If there had not been another example of Fast healing being (Sp) or (Su) I probably would not have sided for it working
Infernal healing is a Conjuration (healing) (Evil) Spell
in the Rules for healing on page 191 of the Players Handbook
since its a spell it falls into magical healing because of "Various abilities and spells"
yes it would help if it Told us what TYPE of Fast healing provided Particularly since the ISWG was released After the APG
By RAW All it says is fast healing .. nothing more .. nothing less not (Ex) or (Su) and as soon as you start applying those to it you are venturing into RAI
I realize your at GenCon but how would you handle this
a large building is the location of a Hallow and Forbidance Spells
My initial thought is that the Hallow would suppress the desecration since they are in the same Realm of functionality but after readinfg Im doubting it (since its a constant effect)
not entirely true .... the wording is "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind" not the creatureso 5 ft base and up to 20 ft Wide at the top
as for the rest yes ... protection and resist were both in play so this wasnt a particularly deadly encounter ... just a resource spender ... tho now that I see I forgot it does double damage to undead ... the Vampire caught in the Whirlwind should have been in a LOT Worse trouble
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