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Count Lucinean Galdana

Wraith235's page

FullStarFullStarFullStarFullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 850 posts (862 including aliases). 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist. 28 Pathfinder Society characters. 1 alias.


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Shadow Lodge *****

Im not Sold - I remember back in 2nd ed and how bad spelljammer was

Shadow Lodge *****

been a while since this was linked and about a year since it was opened .. so I'll relink this so that its more "upthread"

Level 12 Character List

I made a Google Sheet list for it

Shadow Lodge

andreww wrote:
Stuff

I backed up on that after I read the entries

and digging deeper I Found the Relevant part on skill checks .. and I believe it is something we veteran players take for granted and simply look at and move on from

CRB wrote:
When you make a skill check, you roll 1d20 and then add your ranks and the appropriate ability score modifier to the result of this check.

the reason it doesn't work is the Simple "Progression of math"

d20 + ability + ranks + Bonus.... Rather than the

Skill = Ranks + ability (+ d20 + Bonus)

tho this thread has defintly brought up something else for me in a home game

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Thomas Hutchins wrote:
there aren't other classes that get sneak attack at level 1 I believe.

there are several Prc's that do ... but I know thats not what your looking at

with Sap Master and all the PRC's at 11th I think I got up to 16d6 sneak - all theorycraft tho and not sure how effective this type of character would actually be

the main issue is the depth of feats that need to be selected to make all this work

Enforcer
Weapon Focus
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
Sap Adept
Sap Master
as well as all prerequisite feats

Shadow Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Season 4

Shadow Lodge

Tieflings make Great Paladins too with the +1 HP Regained from LoH

Shadow Lodge *****

CBDunkerson wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Just as the blog says that most animals cannot wield weapons due to lack of an opposable thumb, so too do much greater variations in skeletal structure prevent songbirds from making unarmed strikes as a humanoid would. Songbird elbow strike? They'd be bending their wing the wrong way and trying to stab you with their feathers. It's just ridiculous.
Wraith235 wrote:
then I ask you 1 last time ... and until you do I consider this conversation done ... Provide Source that says you can't

As this is, in fact, the first time you have asked for a source to be provided, and it isn't clear precisely what you are referring to, I'll run through the seemingly likely possibilities;

1: GM discretion on abilities usable while polymorphed
2: Opposable thumb required to wield weapons
3: Location of a bird's elbow

1 - Refers to EX and SU (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form - Not Feats and Unarmed strike not an EX, SU, Movement type, or Natural attack

2 - No opposable Thumbs Needed to Use IUS ... I could Cut my thumbs off and still Punch - this is also from the monkey see monkey do Blog which handles Animal companions and familiars ... NOT polymorphed PC's

3 - not a Game Rule ... but RL Physics and even so .. they have feet and knees as well

Try again

Shadow Lodge *****

CBDunkerson wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
Like I said ... Lots of people Hate this build and the Idea (myself included)

Ironically enough... I have no problem with the build concept. I have used a similar design with an Atomie NPC (Sir Finiwin, the Dragon Knight) in home games. If the ring polymorphed characters into Atomies or some other such flying humanoid creature we'd be all good... though I suspect that it would then cost considerably more.

Quote:
but it is legal and when you say "you cant make unarmed strikes while in bird form" (even after weve proven that you can time and time again)

Except that, you haven't.

Quote:
you are then just targeting the PC

Nope. I'm saying that the rules specifically leave what kind of actions are and are not possible for a polymorphed creature to perform to the GM's discretion... and that my personal standard for most games would then be to limit it to things the creature could actually do. Tiny songbirds cannot actually perform humanoid martial arts.

Just as the blog says that most animals cannot wield weapons due to lack of an opposable thumb, so too do much greater variations in skeletal structure prevent songbirds from making unarmed strikes as a humanoid would. Songbird elbow strike? They'd be bending their wing the wrong way and trying to stab you with their feathers. It's just ridiculous.

then I ask you 1 last time ... and until you do I consider this conversation done ... Provide Source that says you can't

Shadow Lodge *****

BigNorseWolf wrote:

even the Torag trait with the Irori Archtype is not EXPRESSLY Illegal

Worshiping two deities? Sounds illegal

sorry I went out to have some fun this evening

yes your position is exactly where my argument against it lies ... however if you read the archetype it does not state anywhere a requirement to worship Irori - other than the in the Name of the Archtype itself and the fluff text - it Just lacks the Words "Must Worship Irori"

CBDunkerson wrote:
Ragoz wrote:
That blog says once they can take the feat it can be anything they are physically capable of using. The mental arguement is baseless.
Generally speaking, these feats are off-limits to animals, but when their intelligence reaches 3, the rules state that they can use any feat that they are physically capable of using. Some people take this to mean that they can equip their animal companion in chainmail and arm him with a greatsword given the correct feats. While you could interpret the rules in this way, the "capable of use" clause is very important. Most weapons require thumbs to use properly, and even then, few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that.
Funny. That kinda seems to be saying that the mental argument is NOT baseless.

Animal - yes .... but we aren't talking about an animal here are we ?

we are talking about someone intentionally wild shaping into an animal ...
and again ... as has been stated - you don't need thumbs for unarmed strike
As per Monk the following forms are listed "fist, elbows, knees, and feet." granted Head is not mentioned but in truth it doesn't need to be because by Following your Logic we have to ask -

1) do Songbirds have ANY of the above mentioned Body parts

A) by Using Anatomy we know that they have 3 of the 4 ... Feet, Elbow, and Knees ... so whats the problem ? they have the bodyparts required by Monk to make unarmed strikes

the Feat Improved unarmed strike is even more vague

Quote:
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.

Like I said ... Lots of people Hate this build and the Idea (myself included) but it is legal and when you say "you cant make unarmed strikes while in bird form" (even after weve proven that you can time and time again) you are then just targeting the PC

Shadow Lodge *****

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
as soon as you begin saying "you cant do that because of X" when the rules directly support things like this happening ... you are no longer playing PFS .. you are playing Homebrew ..
Except that the rules DON'T directly support anything of the kind. Rather, they state that the GM needs to decide what is reasonable. To me, following the standards of the real world seems reasonable.

And so if they polymorph into a dragon they can't fly since real world standard those wings couldn't let a dragon fly right?

So in the real world, when a thrush has taken the feat IUS what happens?

or what about Flying with magic ? since that is impossible and Physics say that we as humans dont have the ability to fly as a species (our bones arent hollow, no feathers etc.) I suppose if I find that unreasonable I can just disallow it from my table

*Sarcasam off* no ... we have the rules ... they are what they are .... we have Venture officers and agents to adjudicate these matters when GM's take hard line stances on things that are Clearly within the rules

we may not like it ... but we play by the rules and if we dont want to play by the rules of PFS then we dont have to play PFS

I personally HATE this Ring and the Fox form Mouser cheese build that nearly Solo'd bonekeep 2 -
but it is not my place to Target the Character when I KNOW it is within the rules ..
and there is Nothing in the Rules that say it is illegal
even the Torag trait with the Irori Archtype is not EXPRESSLY Illegal tho it pushes the boundaries very very hard and I feel safer disallowing that combination based on the Text of the 2 Items Rather than the "Real world Physics" of everything else

oh and your entire Argument breaks if they have a Feral Combat Training

Shadow Lodge *****

CBDunkerson wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
as soon as you begin saying "you cant do that because of X" when the rules directly support things like this happening ... you are no longer playing PFS .. you are playing Homebrew ..
Except that the rules DON'T directly support anything of the kind. Rather, they state that the GM needs to decide what is reasonable. To me, following the standards of the real world seems reasonable.
Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

your only reason against a "headbutt" is Real world Physics

we have quoted many reasons why it works - citing Rules and Items
your only argument is "the GM States what is reasonable" or "Physics make it impossible" Try quoting some Rules that support your theory

Natural attacks are not (Ex) ... Unarmed attacks are not (Ex)
When polymorphed all Items are merged into your form, you can no longer activate Items but Items that grant a permanent bonus continue to function
Agile amulet - which allows dex to damage is permanent which is where 98% of the damage comes from

Shadow Lodge *****

CBDunkerson wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
so Focus on headbutts

Ok.

Tiny birds are physically incapable of performing a head butt. Even setting aside the extremely limited range of forward motion afforded by their skeletal structure, it is simply impossible for them to strike something with their frontal bone... the beak inevitably gets in the way.

They CAN peck with the beak... but that is, of course, a natural attack. Not an unarmed strike.

and dragons dont exist.... people cant Conjure Beings from other planes ... Create Balls of explody fire from their fingertips ... instantaneous heal others with a touch .... this is a fantasy game .. we play by the rules we are given, and as PFS we do not Deviate from those rules ... as soon as you begin saying "you cant do that because of X" when the rules directly support things like this happening ... you are no longer playing PFS .. you are playing Homebrew ..

Shadow Lodge *****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:


Spellcasting is a class feature that requires Speech - Druids get around this with Wild Spell so yes - I would say that Spell casting (Being a class feature requiring a verbal component) would be Nullified by The Ring

No. You are perfectly capable of casting spells in any form: not all spells have verbal components, and psychic spells make it even easier. It isn't directly form dependant: much like bastard sword proficiency an opposable thumb might be handy but it's not form dependent. A dragon disciples scales on the other hand..

you know what I meant BNW

since were talking about Speech lets relegate it to speech requirements
Sure Silence metamagic would get past lots ... and while Psychics are considered Spell-casters ... I don't think of them as such ....

Shadow Lodge *****

CBDunkerson wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
you can make butt checks, chest bumps, headbutts as an IUS.

There are no rules saying so (except for the head butts).

so Focus on headbutts .... you can make more than 1 attack with your head as per the Errata'd Flurry Rules

Shadow Lodge *****

plaidwandering wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
plaidwandering wrote:


It's talking about abilities, senses, movement dependent on form. ANY ability from a class is by its very nature not dependent on form, because any number of races could take levels in whatever class.

Lots of abilities ARE dependent on form. You can't complete somatic gestures, or swing a weapon, if your form does not have arms or hands.

Most forms won't let you complete the vocal components for casting spells.

yes I forgot to state an exception for things that add a permanent physical feature obviously

however, you are really on the wrong track here. Spell components or swinging a sword are not class abilities. Even if they were it would still be a bad example since the game already has many non-humanoid form spellcaster examples baked in

Spellcasting is a class feature that requires Speech - Druids get around this with Wild Spell so yes - I would say that Spell casting (Being a class feature requiring a verbal component) would be Nullified by The Ring

(there is a debate if wild spell would work with the ring since its not "Wild Shaping" but that's beyond the scope here)
SLA's would not be invalidated because those are not dependant on form (no verbal / Somatic or Material)

Shadow Lodge *****

CBDunkerson wrote:


Wraith235 wrote:
By RAW the only way you can Say that a polymorphed PC Looses access to feats is if they list (Ex) AND if they require an original form

I think even most of the 'of course songbirds can be martial arts masters' crowd would agree that the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) feat is completely useless to an earthworm.

Sure... you still have the feat. You just aren't gonna be doing anything with it if you don't have arms.

I digress because I used the wrong terminology... loosing access was incorrect (this is what I get for writing a post in the middle of a fleet battle on eve) I should have said "Loose the ability to use the feats"

and technically if you Polymorph into a tiny bird ... I could see the bird flying around with a tiny Bastard sword clutched in its claws (tho even SoS Pads wont scrub that image from my brain)

polymorphing doesn't cause you to loose the feat but Improved unarmed strike doesnt require specific body parts ... you have a head and feet (balled up claws)

Shadow Lodge *****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
.... but the beast shape 4(Technically) 7x a day, and +1 deflection bonus for4k ... is absurd

Just because the ring uses beast shape doesn't mean it's giving you the benefits of beast shape. Half the power of beast shape is the versatility. Need to go underground? Burrow. Need to find the invisible person? turn into a bat. Need a swim speed? *dolphin noise

why I said technically and TBH I would say it is horridly overpriced it has more power than the old bracers of falcons aim (permenant 1st level spell) which was banned until it was changed to 1 min / day of a level 1 spell... this is 70 min a day of a watered down 6th level spell

Shadow Lodge *****

The Only Star wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
again ... polymorphed Creatures do NOT Loose their feats

They don't lose their feats, but since feats are usually extraordinary abilities

Most Feats do not list (EX) after them so your statement is incorrect (Im having a hard time picking any out that do but that doesnt mean they dont exist)

By RAW the only way you can Say that a polymorphed PC Looses access to feats is if they list (Ex) AND if they require an original form

Quote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function

Natural attacks and unarmed Strikes are Entirely different things because they can be combined into a single attack routine...

they have also said you can flurry with 1 weapon so your "1 attack" can be flurried with if you have the Feat (Feral combat training IIRC)

anything else is GM Arbitration based on not liking something ....

Yes this ring Should be banned .. but until it is - legal is legal ...

and yes I know the history of this build Very well ... I also know the level of people that have gone over it in an attempt to prove it that it was illegal, and the only thing that was questionable was an aparent diety specific prestige class (Or archtype) with a Deity specific Trait (Different Dietys / pantheons)

as has been suggested .. its not about the mechanics ... but about the Item which is Grossly under-priced.. Fox form does 80% of the build fine .... but the beast shape 4(Technically) 7x a day, and +1 deflection bonus for4k ... is absurd

Shadow Lodge *****

improved unarmed strike is a feat (in this case granted by a class) ...Not a Class Feature ...

so sure ... a Thrush does 1d2-5 Based on its strength
these Builds have feats and Permenant Magical Enchantments which allow them to use Dex for Damage - Neither of which Qualify as EX Relying on the original forms

again ... polymorphed Creatures do NOT Loose their feats

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1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think its legit that people are asking ....its been over 2 months since the last update ....personally im waiting to see if i buy blood of beasts or not

Shadow Lodge *****

TBH this is more overpowered and under-priced than the old bracers of falcons aim ...and that was banned until it got Errata'd

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Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

And again, I would point out that I'm not sure exactly what he's trying to achieve with this character. If his goal is 'not die', there are better, more party friendly ways to do exactly that.

If is goal is to bring a subpar character into any scenario (not just bonekeep) then....I'm not sure what to say to that. You're doing yourself and your group a disservice.

my guess is "Play by Proxy" its the same Idea as Magic Jar only less powerful

Shadow Lodge *****

Kevin Willis wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

and I actually Just found a way to extend extracts ... its a 3rd level Extract but it works

Amplitfy Elixer

and if this is his Main Schtik then it would become a necessary thing

Sadly that extract only works for potions and elixirs, not for other extracts.

Like I say I don't play alchemists but unless your playing a rapid bomb alchemist I am starting to wonder why I ever would

Shadow Lodge *****

and I actually Just found a way to extend extracts ... its a 3rd level Extract but it works

Amplitfy Elixer

and if this is his Main Schtik then it would become a necessary thing

Shadow Lodge *****

Kevin Willis wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

so a quick answer for Skinsend Duration issue

Rod of Lesser extend ... that 7 hours becomes 14 hours that is More than enough time to go from Absalom to bonekeep lvl 2 and back Twice over
It's an alchemist extract, so there's no way to extend it.

Dont play alchemists so this is my mistake ...Learn something new every day

Kevin Willis wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
and as for the Skin Dying bit Cost of a Regenerate Spell is 3PP which is a way to get your skin back
The problem is that given that they will spend 6 hours each way traveling to Bonekeep he has to leave his body somewhere outside the city. If the party wipes how will his body get back to Absalom?

Each way wont matter ... however yes that travel could be an issue but is another easy thing to fix - 2 PA for a Wand of Mount or 2 Scrolls of Communal Mount at and have it Hustle (~10 miles in an hour ) leaving 5hrs+ Change(Im shorting the overland movment of the mount spell for saftey)

Now Granted if hes NOT Taking time to Consider the issues then ya sure ...and it sounds like he is keeping the duration accounted for

one other thing to think of - Rounds are 6 Seconds in game time and Most times a Round takes 5+ Minutes to complete Real time so you have to look at the amount of time spent in Combat During bonekeep .. and by my estimation its about 75% having run it 2x and played once so the 5 hours of Play time is condensed into 1 hour 15 min Actual time (pushing that up to 2 hours would make sense)
so once you start looking at things like that suddenly your duration is Not really an issue

Again I am only looking at the Mechanical Issues of this

Shadow Lodge *****

so a quick answer for Skinsend Duration issue
Rod of Lesser extend ... that 7 hours becomes 14 hours that is More than enough time to go from Absalom to bonekeep lvl 2 and back Twice over

and as for the Skin Dying bit Cost of a Regenerate Spell is 3PP which is a way to get your skin back

I guess I don't see the problem with the mechanics of the character

the argumentative bit is something else tho

Shadow Lodge *****

any chance we can get this thread stickey'd so that it stays at the top for developers to reference ?

Shadow Lodge *****

my question is what prompts inclusion on the campaign clarifications is it things that you as Paizo employees feel are necessary ? or are they Items that the public has requested clarifications on

Shadow Lodge *****

prepping this for an event ... and ran accross something

Spoiler:
there are 2 options listed for manifesting the shade
1 - disperse into multiple bodies
2 - form 1 single elemental
3 - if they succeed at all the bluff / sleight of hand stuff they cause her to manifest as if they had beaten more haunts as the surogates
4- as 3 but manifest as the aggregate

however without the technologist feat they can only disperse the elemental but with the AI Core they technically "have" the technologist feat

so wouldnt they ALWAYS have the choice of how to manifest her ?

Also a question about the Axe in case the PC's don't turn it over
what are the "several custom touches" or is it just "Window dressing" as the saying goes

Shadow Lodge *****

Auke Teeninga wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

I just have 1 question .. and Im not trying to start a fire here

in my experience of Convention events - scenarios don't go out until around T minus 10 days... how did they even get the scenario at the 3 week mark ...
We're trying to get the convention support procedure more streamlined, so scenarios will go out faster. Work in progress!

cool .. thank for the answer ... and good to know

I know that has been a long time complaint from a lot of Con GM's ... just not enough time to prep

Shadow Lodge *****

lol

Shadow Lodge *****

I just have 1 question .. and Im not trying to start a fire here
in my experience of Convention events - scenarios don't go out until around T minus 10 days... how did they even get the scenario at the 3 week mark ...

Shadow Lodge

this is a thread about infernal healing and fast healing

not Flight,Pounce, Wildshape, Beast Shape, Plant Shape, Form of the Dragon, Barbarians, Sorcerers, or any other Straw-Man you Want to introduce

the problem Chess is 95%+ of your entire argument is a Straw-man and Im ashamed with myself for falling for it .. I should have realized much Sooner that that is what you were doing

by RAW Infernal healing Meets All Critera for being a Magical Healing
as has been pointed out many times ..
as I noted in my last Response the fast healing granted by the spell does NOT meet the Criteria for an (Ex) because there are certain Wounds it Wont heal - that is a Fundamental Difference that does not meet with Fast healing as presented in the Universal Monster Rules

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Azothath wrote:
ya know, if you have to resort to all caps or interesting symbols it might be time to take a step back from posting. It's just people's opinions and posting it doesn't make it correct.

sorry for the use of interesting Symbols ... those were aimed at myself since I lost an edit I had been working on for a while ... didnt know the site had an hour limit on edit

Deadbeat Doom wrote:

I see your reasoning here, but I would respectfully point out that if Fast Healing says it works like Natural Healing, and Natural Healing contains only information concerning Rest, then it isn't all that far a leap to assume that Fast Healing directly relates to Rest.

As a side note, as far as I know this is not a PFS Argument as this thread is located in Rules Questions, not in Pathfinder Society.

I do get what you are saying though. It would be nice if we could get a FAQ on what, exactly, constitutes Natural Healing.

Forgive me I and allow me to Reclarify

Mine and chess's involvement in this is Seeded in PFS is what I Should have said - it is a rules issue to be sure and due to the involvement of PFS requires a different type of diligence in debate since we should all be using the same Rules

and yes .. it should be that simple .. but the argument that would be used against it is "Thats 1 way of getting natural healing" but yes - I agree with you

Shadow Lodge

$!@#$%!@ Lost my edit ... ugh what a pisser

as for Flight -
Technically Flight Doesn't care how you got it Since SU Flight ends in an AMF
it also doesn't care how it ends
so as for your pigeon hole TECHNICALLY (Sure its a stretch)any Flight that ends in an AMF would be Su

Chess Pwn wrote:

THE SPELL IS MAGICALLY GRANTING THE FAST HEALING EX ABILITY.
A MAGICAL EFFECT OF THE SPELL IS THE GRANTING OF THE EX FAST HEALING ABILITY.
GRANTING EX FAST HEALING IS ONE OF THE MAGICAL EFFECTS OF THE SPELL.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I AM IN NO WAY ALLUDING TO OR IMPLYING THAT THE GRANTING OF THE FAST HEALING IS A SEPARATE EFFECT AND NOT PART OF THE SPELL?

YES THE SPELL HAS A ONE TIME MAGICAL EFFECT, WHICH IS THE GRANTING OF AN EX ABILITY ALONG WITH THE OTHER THINGS AND YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THEM FROM EACH OTHER.

Yes I understand that you are in no way alluding to the fast healing being a separate effect

But
Fast Healing (ex) Heals Damage from Silver or Good Aligned effects
Fast Healing (ex) does not make you feel the evil of the Magic
Fast Healing (ex) Does not make you detect as evil

the Spell Creates all 3 Effects Simultaneously, and as we have discussed you cannot end 1 piece without the others
Because of the Change in what it can / cannot heal it is Not Fast healing (ex) Since Fast Healing (ex) doesnt care what did the damage
Its been Modified to something that doesn't exist in the Universal Monster Rules regardless of how much you want it to Fit
the Spell also does not Say Fast Healing (ex) when all other instances of Fast healing that I have found so far (and there are probably many more) DO Clarify as an (ex) by RAW this one Does not

- interesting Note .. I'll have to check if there are any other abilities from this particular book that grant Fast healing ... that would Solve the soon to come Editing Error argument
Edit only thing I found was Red Shroud from the RMA which is an SU

Shadow Lodge

your Dismissing evidence because it does not suit your argument

and yes ... AMF is Basically the breakdown as stated here

CRB pg 221 wrote:


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-likr
Bolded for Contrast

well an SU is only effected by Anti Magic Areas so yes

By RAW no matter how you get it or what it gives you if an SU is Suppressed (since it cant be dispelled) you cannot use it...

and for the Record - you still have to make Fly Checks with magical Flight not sure where you got that Idea that you didnt

Chess Pwn wrote:

the setup
If you're using a magic item to qualify for a feat the feat is a natural or EX ability and the magic item is obviously magic.

my view
The feat is and always will be an EX ability, just because you lost the magic granting you access to the EX ability doesn't suddenly make the feat a magical ability. Yes you lose the feat in the AMF, but not because it is magic but because it's source is magic.

another example, is the feat weapon focus a magical ability? I say no. But you can get weapon focus from a magical item. Since the item turns off in the AMF you lose the feat in the AMF. NOT because the feat is magical, it's still clearly a normal feat that is not magical, but because the magical source of the normal feat has been turned off.

Exactly ... the Source is Magical therefore you Loose them because how you gained them is no longer Valid

Wings(SU)
Greater Beatst Totem(Su)
Dragon Totem Wings(Su)

Regardless of how or Why in an AMF you cant use them

Chess Pwn wrote:


NO, I'm saying pounce is EX. Greater beast totem is SU. It really seems you're not reading my posts clearly enough to understand if you felt I said that pounce was an SU.

under your view, as I understand it, greater beast totem an SU ability, grants some new SU ability of pounce. So I am clarifying. if you maintained GBT in an AMF would pounce be disabled? Are you really saying that GBT is granting a new SU ability of pounce?

I say and feel the rules make the most sense, is that GBT a SU is granting the normal pounce ability, which is an EX ability. Thus if you somehow could keep GBT in an AMF that the pounce would work just fine as it would be an EX ability.

Allow me to Clarify

your statment that it is an EX is Absolutely Irelavent to me - the Ability is an SU on paper in the book its in Reads XXXX(Su) - thats all I care about for the purpose of this Discussion because when it comes to AMF thats all that matters

Chess Pwn wrote:


THE SPELL IS MAGICALLY GRANTING THE FAST HEALING EX ABILITY.
A MAGICAL EFFECT OF THE SPELL IS THE GRANTING OF THE EX FAST HEALING ABILITY.
GRANTING EX FAST HEALING IS ONE OF THE MAGICAL EFFECTS OF THE SPELL. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I AM IN NO WAY ALLUDING TO OR IMPLYING THAT THE GRANTING OF THE FAST HEALING IS A SEPARATE EFFECT AND NOT PART OF THE SPELL?

you are saying that 2 parts of the Spell are Magical and 1 is not your ignoring that the person Cast on can "Feel the Evil of the Magic" (says it Right there in the Spell description that its Magical)

Deadbeat Doom wrote:
So I guess no one noted the part where I pointed out that Fast Healing works like Natural Healing, which is healing from Rest, which is also affected by the Fast Healer feat...

no I saw

sad as it is this is a PFS Argument and as much as I hate to say it the Spell Specifically calls out Rest ... not Natural healing and all Natural healing says in the crb is Rest ... then we have the line
Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing which really does nothing

Shadow Lodge

either way Chess you and I have both agreed we will not change our views untill there is an FAQ (or in this case the travesty that is the campaign clarifications does something decent for once)
I have put my evidence down and am not looking to waste anymore energy debating it with you

Shadow Lodge

thaX wrote:
Just to have a clarification, what is AMF?

Anti-Magic field

Shadow Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:

There was a lot and after reading your post I feel it wasn't clear.

Your last paragraph shows you clearly don't understand. The spell, is granting an EX ability to you while it's active. If it's not active then there's nothing to give you fast healing.
If the spell was written as such. Durration instantaneous. this grants fast healing 1 for 1 minute. this fast healing can't heal some damage and makes you ping as evil. The totally, the fast healing would persist in the AMF. Since it is an EX ability granted by the spell. But since we both agree that the fast healing only persists while the spell is active your idea that because the fast healing doesn't persist in an AMF the fast healing must be a magic source has no merit. As soon as the magic granting the fast healing is gone the fast healing stops existing for your character. So the granting of the fast healing is totally a part of the spell, but the actual healing being done is the EX ability fast healing.

the logic of the argument is that fast healing is an EX and thus Not Subject to AMF and thereby Preventing iot from benifitting from the Fast healer feat thats the rabbit hole we are exploring

and the spell Does not say "While active" your words again

the inclusion of a Duration to to tie it to a spell
Makes it a magical effect -
putting it into the conjuration (healing) school
thus Making it Magical Healing (a spell as is Called out by Magical healing on page 191
the 3 parts of the Spell that all effect it Calling out that it is indeed Magic in nature because you must apply everything in the spell

by RAW - the definition of a Spell is a "one time Magical Effect" that is pretty clear cut to me .... no matter what the Spell does it is a 1 time Magical Effect, regardless of how many effects there are - they are magical, no matter what the effects are - they are magical

you Cannot have it both Ways

Quote:

1)

So you're saying that a barbarian with great beast totem a SU effect that says,"the barbarian gains the pounce special ability. This also upgrades claws" is not referring to the monster universal EX ability pounce and gains that. But is a new SU ability called pounce since he would not have the pounce ability in an AMF?

Right? You're saying that his pounce ability is a SU ability and not the EX ability that we have listed in the book?

That if the barb could keep one SU or SP effect that he couldn't have both greater beast totem AND this new SU pounce ability because that is two abilities.

you Said it yourself - its an SU ...

We already have precedence for Loosing access to things due to outside circumstances (ability damage causing you to no longer qualify for a feat or Loosing access to a feat causing you to loose a whole tree)
since I've tried to answer this Multiple times I will ask you ...
Are SU's suppressed in an AMF?

Quote:

2)

Are you saying that a barbarian with dragon wings totem and activated the wings uses magical flight and not wing based flight. that under the fly skill it says, "If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.", "If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude." and, "If you are using...

you Cannot have it Both Ways - I am Saying that if you cease to qualify to use them then they become useless

the Ability is listed as an SU
the SU allows you Manifest Wings, you enter an AMF you Loose the ability to Manifest them so they would disappear as you would cease to qualify to use them because the effect is Suppressed in an AMF

Dragon disciple Sorcerer - Wings are SU .. enter an AMF you would cease to be able to Control them since they are granted by an SU

all until you leave the AMF thats the distinction between an SP/SU and EX/Natural

Shadow Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
when you enter an AMF the spell stops granting you fast healing. Since you no longer have the EX ability of fast healing you don't heal any more. NOT that your fast healing was stopped by the AMF but the spell granting it to you.

you cant have it both Ways .. Infernal healing is either Magical or its not - the Spell gives all 3 parts ... not 1 and 1 and 1 as soon as you say its Not Magical you are Separating the effects

Part 1 you gain Fast Healing 1
Part 2 Cannot Repair Damage from Silver or Good alligned
Part 3 Detects as evil for the Duration and can sense the Evil of the Magic
Part 3 alone Classifies it as Magical

Quote:
Like the animal shape into a hawk. If you say that the caster is using the Hawks wings to EX fly then going into a AMF doesn't turn off the flight but turns off the spell that was granting the EX ability.

Flight EX or SU only Cares if it ends in an AMF thats it Look at the Rules for Flight all it Says is this

If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists. -
your Wild Shaped - effect ends and you fall

Quote:
But if you say that the factor is if that ability is removed by whatever reason in an AMF then that means that animal shape's flight is magical flight and not restricted by EX flight rules.

the portion of Flight that would apply to "EX" status is this A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action, and Maneuverability Rules

the Fly Skill only says this
You are skilled at flying, either through the use of wings or magic
and yes .. pretty much AMF Suppresses all SU and SP PERIOD ... no exceptions

Quote:
I've only met one person that said that an animal shape's flight is magical flight. But it's spell that has SR too.

Yup that was Me .. and you got that answer because you pushed me for an on the Spot By RAW answer - and my answer was Yes because your Wild shape is suppressed so you loose flight... did you have wings before ? ok that's a different Story

and your Confusing EX with

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. which is a summarily Ill exposed Catagory Just like Natural Healing

Quote:

A draconic sorcerer has a bloodline ability Wings(SU) at 15th level, leathery dragon wings grow from your back as a standard action, giving you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can dismiss the wings as a free action.

Do you believe that since this turns off it's magical flight and not a magical ability granting wings that grant EX flight?

its an SU ability Not EX - SU abilities are inherently Magic by their interaction with an Antimagic Field, and the ability States how its an SU so I dont know what your trying to accomplish here

Quote:
Like are all movement granting spells, are they suddenly granting SP flight/burrow/earth glide/ since it "doesn't technically reference the monster ability?"

SP or SU - since its granted by a Spell and therefore subject to AMF

Quote:
Is the barbarians pounce from Greater beast totem or the wings from Dragon Totem Wings, granted from SU rage powesr, explicitly saying "he pounce special ability" and "wings that grant her a fly speed equal to her base speed" granting SU pounce and SU flight? It would turn off in a AMF. And it seems that's your platform for saying that fast healing is magical. I don't think most people would say that he's getting a special new ability of SU pounce or that the wings are granting SU flight but that the rage power is granting the normal EX pounce and EX flight that that the AMF is stopping the rage powers, not the actual pounce or flight.

its not EX Flight ... the SU gives you Wings Which Cease to Function in an AMF - EX by their Definition Would Continue to Function in an AMF ... and so would Natural Abilities

Quote:

So YES it does technically reference fast healing since when an ability is referenced we're to look in the in the rules for how it works.

Fast Healing (Su) eidolon evo
An eidolon’s body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1.
fast healing is defined as an EX ability.

Except in the Eidolons Case it is an SU and NOWHERE in the description does it say Ex ... that's YOUR Words Not RAW

Quote:
If there was an ability that said "you can keep one effect that normally turns off in an AMF on" that the fast healing granted by the spell would turn off since it was magical healing if you kept the spell on? (cause remember the spell is giving you "the new SP/SU/magical ability" fast healing, not that the spell IS fast healing) so if you picked the spell you'd detect as evil and be being granted the magical fast healing, but that the fast healing would be turn off? And obviously if you picked the magical fast healing the spell stops, which stops the granting of this magical healing, and thus you wasted your choice?

you've Round-aboutly highlighted the Conundrum ...if Fast Healing is Not Magical then it would Remain active During the AMF (as per an Ex or Natural abilities) and everything else tied to the spell would end

Quote:
Would you say that if the sorcerer/barbarian/polymorphed creature picked the bloodline power/rage power/spell that they'd have the wings but be unable to fly since it'd be considered magical flight, Since the ability normally would have been gone in the AMF?

if they are SU then yes .. the Wings would disappear Since they are Granted by an SU and they would no longer be able to Fly... if they NATURALLY had Wings ... then no

Quote:
Or are you proposing that all those abilities that behave oh so similarly to this situation, where it's seemingly a SP/SU granting an EX ability are doing that but that fast healing is somehow the special exception?

if they are an SU or SP or Granted By an SU or SP then yes it ceases Functioning because it was Granted by what is Magic... and that's the argument being used against it being magical healing ... not my argument... Hell Look at the description of the Spell itself ... it Says they can feel the evil of the MAGIC

Quote:
Like I really can't see how you can see these and say "Yes this spell is granting magical fast healing ability", and also say, "No those spells and SU abilities are granting the normal EX versions of the ability." And not think anything of it.

Ive never said that ... I have said if its an SU or SP it is Supressed by an AMF ... Period

the logical conclusion of this debate is as soon as you start calling the fast healing Seperate from the rest of the spell - thus breaking the spell into its Components that since its an EX as per what people are saying it would continue to function in an AMF

the Fast healing working in an AMF is a thought excersise to highlight what is wrong with this argument

this Whole argument on every level can be broken down to 1 question
Is it affect by AMF
Yes - SU / SP
No - EX or Natural

Shadow Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:

If you find something that said, fast healing (su) heal 1 hp... and never reference the "fast healing" from Universal monster rules then I'd think you got something.

interesting that TECHNICALLY IH doesnt Reference the Universal monster Rules ... its the side of the Community that says it doesnt Work that is referencing it

the farther I dig into this the more I believe that Fast healing given by Infernal healing is not an EX

does the fast healing end when you walk into an AMF
yes ? SU or SP
No ? Ex

if your fine saying that the fast healing Stays after entering an AMF then sure I can get behind your argument but Dollars to Donuts noone has that opinion ... and you really cant have it both ways
because of this line in IH
The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic (Clasifying it as magic)
whats even funnier is that all the spell says is it gives you fast healing 1 ... and as soon as you seperate fast healing from the Effect that allows you to "sense the evil of the Magic" your left with a duration-less Fast healing 1

someione tried to use the polymorph into a hawk argument and thats lead me to believe this is much more binary than its being made ... the interesting thing about the flight argument is not about Wings .. its all about " If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists"

same goes for EX, SU. SP ... do they end in an AMF ...

the natural healing Entry on pg. 191 confuses things more since it only lists 1 Type of Natural healing and I cant find any other definition of natural healing anywhere else in the books
And anything else is considered Magical healing

as for the Regenerate Spell it doesn't GIVE you regeneration ability so without debate it would work

Infernal healing is further Convoluted by the fact that it allows SR... EX and SU don't

I think theres to many markers pointing away from an Ex to support it BEING one

Shadow Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Fast healing granted from Infernal healing and the fast healer feat

Shadow Lodge

I've been on both sides of this in the last 48 hours and after seeing that Eidolons Fast healing are not (Ex) but (Su)

Fast Healing (Su): The eidolon's body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1. The eidolon heals 1 point of damage per round, just like via natural healing.~

I think the argument that all fast Healing is (Ex) is a dead and redundant argument. If there had not been another example of Fast healing being (Sp) or (Su) I probably would not have sided for it working

Infernal healing is a Conjuration (healing) (Evil) Spell
Cure X Wounds are Conjuration (healing) spell

in the Rules for healing on page 191 of the Players Handbook
Natural healing is Listed as a full Nights Rest
Magical healing is Listed as "Various Abilities and Spells can restore Hitpoints"

since its a spell it falls into magical healing because of "Various abilities and spells"

yes it would help if it Told us what TYPE of Fast healing provided Particularly since the ISWG was released After the APG

By RAW All it says is fast healing .. nothing more .. nothing less not (Ex) or (Su) and as soon as you start applying those to it you are venturing into RAI

Shadow Lodge *****

5 hours+ Really ?
so does this run long ?
Im about to play this in a limited time slot and if there is a time issue I will switch post haste

Shadow Lodge *****

any Idea when this goes live to 5 stars ?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I realize your at GenCon but how would you handle this

a large building is the location of a Hallow and Forbidance Spells
a Graveknight walks in (Desecration Aura)

My initial thought is that the Hallow would suppress the desecration since they are in the same Realm of functionality but after readinfg Im doubting it (since its a constant effect)
or at least limit the effect to the graveknight himself

Shadow Lodge

How much on city of brass....I'm in need of that for another adventure path

Shadow Lodge *****

I too would like info on travelling there
While I have a PC with that boon my need for info is based on a non paizo adventure path

Shadow Lodge *****

now that blood money is banned the only symbol spell I use regularly is Symbol of mirroring because I can offset the cost with false focus

they just get too expensive to use

Shadow Lodge

Claxon wrote:

So it's important to note, that whirlwind (the Supernatural ability from the Universal Monster Rules and not the spell versions) requires that a creature be a least 1 size category smaller than the user. So a Peri could only suck up a small creature (or smaller), so it's highly likely that the whole thing simply couldn't be done.

not entirely true .... the wording is "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind" not the creature

so 5 ft base and up to 20 ft Wide at the top

as for the rest yes ... protection and resist were both in play so this wasnt a particularly deadly encounter ... just a resource spender ... tho now that I see I forgot it does double damage to undead ... the Vampire caught in the Whirlwind should have been in a LOT Worse trouble

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