The issue here is that the answer to any question about monster statistics is just going to come down to, "Ummm, that is what the books says" and that is all.

Want to know why that goblin chief has such a good to hit compared to your own character, sorry, no explaining. Heck, you can not even tell if something was a typo or not because you have nothing to go on.

Maybe that monster was supposed to have a +8 instead of a +10 to their stealth, who knows, we have nothing to go on other than an entire beastiary based on supporting their new math and just putting in what would make that work.

The whole concept of using +1 to everything per level, and the crit of +/- 10 does not work.

Why would someone ever take this feat anyway? You are still using a ranged weapon with the reload of 1 or maybe 2, when you could just pick up a bow with a reload zero?

The feat should just lower reload of crossbows and still give wis propulsive.

Whisperknives wrote:

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Whisperknives wrote:

2. The only way for them to have even close to competitive AC is if they get magical Bracers of Armor... what about a gm who does not like magic items all that much, or just does not feel like you should get them at the appropriate level. No class should require the use of level appropriate gear just to be functional.

3. Perfected Form does nothing. Essentially their capstone gives you nothing.
It allows you to consider any attack roll a 10 if you rolled less than that. However, you will NEVER hit on a 10 on anything but your first attack in a round, and even then you will still never hit on a 10 unless the enemy is below your level or you have assistance to get some bonuses.
Just give monks Master Proficiency but only in unarmed or monk weapons. The fact that a fighter gets master unarmed but a monk does not is unacceptable.

Level appropriate magic weapons and armor are both super necessary in PF 2E. I don't think you could play any entry in the playtest past level 1 without appropriate magical equipment. Maybe you could do the level 4 adventure but you would really need to get lucky.

Also, I assume you mean that it is unacceptable that Monks don't get legendary proficiency in unarmed attacks? They get Master at level 13. I will note that Monks get perfected form even if they don't get legendary proficiency: that is a pretty decent accuracy boost on your first attack each round, at least.

I specifically mentioned how unimpressive Perfected Form is.

You get it at level 19.
Your to hit for level 19 is going to be 32 if you have a + 5 weapon and 20 dexterity or strength. You can hit on your first attack if you roll under a 10, if you have no penalties, because the AC of a cr 19 is 42.

So max out your attack stat
Have a + 5 weapon
Only usable once a round
Only works if you miss your first attack
Only works if you do not have any penalties to the attack.

I would gladly just

...

Actually we both did the math wrong.

To hit would be

Level 19
Stat of 5, you can’t hit 6 til 20th
Proficiency 2
Weapon 5

That is 31.

Congratulations, you can not even hit on your first attack without bonuses while rolling a 10 against on level enemies.

Whisperknives wrote:

2. The only way for them to have even close to competitive AC is if they get magical Bracers of Armor... what about a gm who does not like magic items all that much, or just does not feel like you should get them at the appropriate level. No class should require the use of level appropriate gear just to be functional.

3. Perfected Form does nothing. Essentially their capstone gives you nothing.
It allows you to consider any attack roll a 10 if you rolled less than that. However, you will NEVER hit on a 10 on anything but your first attack in a round, and even then you will still never hit on a 10 unless the enemy is below your level or you have assistance to get some bonuses.
Just give monks Master Proficiency but only in unarmed or monk weapons. The fact that a fighter gets master unarmed but a monk does not is unacceptable.

Level appropriate magic weapons and armor are both super necessary in PF 2E. I don't think you could play any entry in the playtest past level 1 without appropriate magical equipment. Maybe you could do the level 4 adventure but you would really need to get lucky.

Also, I assume you mean that it is unacceptable that Monks don't get legendary proficiency in unarmed attacks? They get Master at level 13. I will note that Monks get perfected form even if they don't get legendary proficiency: that is a pretty decent accuracy boost on your first attack each round, at least.

I specifically mentioned how unimpressive Perfected Form is.

You get it at level 19.
Your to hit for level 19 is going to be 32 if you have a + 5 weapon and 20 dexterity or strength. You can hit on your first attack if you roll under a 10, if you have no penalties, because the AC of a cr 19 is 42.

So max out your attack stat
Have a + 5 weapon
Only usable once a round
Only works if you miss your first attack
Only works if you do not have any penalties to the attack.

I would gladly just take legendary proficiency instead

Whisperknives wrote:

Why do all the answers seem to make things more complicated than they need to be?

Just make wands have charges that are much lower than they used to be.
It was one of the ONLY things that 5e got right.

Wands/staves/ect. have a number of charges = to the casting mod of the person that made it.
It gets back half the total charges rounding up each day.

If you want to limit it more, add a bolstering effect to the use of consumable items that does not apply to the use of the spell.

ex. You can be healed by the heal spell all day assuming people can cast it, but you can only be healed by a consumable once.

No more resonance.

Or

If you REALLY want to keep resonance, make it based on CON, a stat that nobody will be leaving at 8, but also nobody can start with an 18.

Really though, of all the issues that PF2 has, this is the very least of my worries.

And nobody as a primary stat.

Exactly, it is fair to everyone.

My issues with monk are thus:

1. No proficiency in anything, not even a dagger or a quarterstaff, and thus no ranged option at all really. They are not even proficient with weapons with the trait "monk". Having a feat required just to use a dagger or a staff is insulting and an obvious feat tax.

2. The only way for them to have even close to competitive AC is if they get magical Bracers of Armor... what about a gm who does not like magic items all that much, or just does not feel like you should get them at the appropriate level. No class should require the use of level appropriate gear just to be functional.

3. Perfected Form does nothing. Essentially their capstone gives you nothing.
It allows you to consider any attack roll a 10 if you rolled less than that. However, you will NEVER hit on a 10 on anything but your first attack in a round, and even then you will still never hit on a 10 unless the enemy is below your level or you have assistance to get some bonuses.
Just give monks Master Proficiency but only in unarmed or monk weapons. The fact that a fighter gets master unarmed but a monk does not is unacceptable.

Why do all the answers seem to make things more complicated than they need to be?

Just make wands have charges that are much lower than they used to be.
It was one of the ONLY things that 5e got right.

Wands/staves/ect. have a number of charges = to the casting mod of the person that made it.
It gets back half the total charges rounding up each day.

If you want to limit it more, add a bolstering effect to the use of consumable items that does not apply to the use of the spell.

ex. You can be healed by the heal spell all day assuming people can cast it, but you can only be healed by a consumable once.

No more resonance.

Or

If you REALLY want to keep resonance, make it based on CON, a stat that nobody will be leaving at 8, but also nobody can start with an 18.

Really though, of all the issues that PF2 has, this is the very least of my worries.

Charon Onozuka wrote:

Now that Signature skills are gone, here's hoping that deity skills get another look over. I remember paizo saying that a deity couldn't grant Diplomacy because Clerics already had it as a Signature skill - but now that's no longer a restriction since Clerics only get Religion + their Deity's skill as trained by default.

Good point, we will definitely take that look.

Why not just go back to a class skills type of format.

You start with X number of skill trainings that you can pick from your class skills, skills from intelligence bonus can be any skill, making them a class skill for you.
When you hit level 5 you may become expert in any class skill, or trained in a non-class skill.
At 9 you can become master in any signature skill, or expert in non-class skills.
At 13 you can become legendary in a class skill or master in a non-class skill.
At 17 you can become legendary in any skill.

Everyone can eventually become legendary in any skill.
Certain classes can get it sooner.
Multiclass feats can give you 1 skill from their list to yours, except rogue which would give 2.

Seems like everyone wins.

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Spell Attack = d20 + Level + Proficiency + spellcasting ability score modifier.

Where do you see (in the rules) that you add your key ability score modifier to Spell Attacks? I am not seeing it on page 197... Since they specifically take the time to mention Finesse, I'd assume that they include/use the STR or DEX modifiers...

TOS admin

It is not in the rules because that is not what it says, anywhere.

Your attack roll with spells is just like making a normal ranged or melee attack, or a range or melee touch attack.

Melee = 1d20 + level + Training in your spell abilities + Strength or Dexterity mod, because it says that it is finesse, + item.

Ranged is the same but with just the option of Dex.

Whisperknives wrote:

One more design issue:

Perfected Form, does almost nothing.

Being able to turn anything under a 10 into a 10 does not mean much when you would never hit on a 10 anyway, without being able to consider them flatfooted or some other bonus, and that is only on the first attack. It is completely pointless on anything but the first attack.

Just give them legendary in unarmed and a small bonus, like your unarmed strikes multiple attack penalty is only -3, -6 if agile or -4, -8 if not.

Actually, this is a surprisingly excellent feature when you get it. While it doesn't do much for you when you're alone, at these high levels you should not only have access to heroism (+3 conditional bonus on attack rolls) but your party has many different avenues for delivering debuffs (flatfooted, sluggish, and/or frightened). If you can get the accuracy of your first hit up to 80% (not impossible at this level), it turns your flurry of blows into two automatic hits. That's a really big damage increase!

That is the issue though, it is not possible to get your attack bonus that high.

At level 19 you should have an attack bonus of 31 if you maxed out all you can and have level appropriate handwraps/weapon.

However, average monster AC is like 43, So you would have to catch them flat footed, or get a party buff just for your own class ablity to work, and that is ONLY on the first attack each round.
It has no chance to ever help on attack number 2, 3, or 4.

That is a very crappy level 19 ability.

I would happily just take legendary in unarmed instead. I will take my +5% to hit all the time over 1 a round change a miss to hit, if I have help.

One more design issue:

Perfected Form, does almost nothing.

Being able to turn anything under a 10 into a 10 does not mean much when you would never hit on a 10 anyway, without being able to consider them flatfooted or some other bonus, and that is only on the first attack. It is completely pointless on anything but the first attack.

Just give them legendary in unarmed and a small bonus, like your unarmed strikes multiple attack penalty is only -3, -6 if agile or -4, -8 if not.

Whisperknives wrote:

I love the resonance idea.

However it has no reason to be charisma based, it should be constitution based.

Maybe for Potions and consumables. We could argue about how the Consitution of someone makes it to where they can withstand the magical energies flowing through them when it comes to Magic Cloak, boots, etc.

But then we get the weirdness that Wizards and crafters of magic gear can't really use it themselves. Not as much as their chosen champion that will use the gear.

I don't know what I would tie it to myself. Breaking it up in half(Potions to CON, rest to CHA) would maybe make sense but they probably don't want to split the pool like that.

Constitution based because it is a stat nobody will have an 18, bit also nobody should have an 8. your body has to be tough enough to take the magical strain.

Having it as a stat some classes use as primary but a dump for others is imbalanced.

I love the resonance idea.

However it has no reason to be charisma based, it should be constitution based.

I have a few issues here:

1. Why are rogues not trained with the star knife or the main gauche?
I could see some thoughts on not getting the main gauche but the star knife 100% should be a rogue weapon

2. if you are playing a class that starts trained and gets expert or better later, there is no point in taking a weapon training feat, because when you go up to expert it only ups ones from your class.

3. Why bother making weapon or armor training feats as general feats when everyone can just take fighter multiclass and get them all. I know what people will say, you have to have a 16 str or dex. however how many people actually have a character with nothing over 16 in those? So far I have seen none.

4. Reload 1 and reload 0 weapons. Why would anyone use a reload 1 crossbow that does not get propulsive when they can use a bow they reloads free and adds half a stat. My fix would be give crossbows dex to damage and bows keep propulsive.

Any thoughts?

Gunslinger

Give them a feat at first level the gives them the ability to change crossbows to reload 0 weapons and up a die size as an option.
Then have a crossbow path chain.

Guns are all reload 1, and target touch ac,
2 handed do 1d8 fatal 1d12, range 60
One handed 1d6, fatal 1d10, range 30

Do not take it the fighter direction of feat trees as weapon type based but take them style based.

Quick shooting multi-shot path, feats to shoot extra shots on fewer actions and level 12 up make Reload 1 firearms reload 0.

Sniper shooting stance, removes range penalties, aim as one action to roll perception succeed for consider them flat footed crit succeed to also get + 3 to hit.
Feats to increase the one big hit style, and later aimed shots get a damage. Onus of half primary stat.

Well rounded style that alchemies special ammo and to do special effect but no specific aim or damage bonuses

Whisperknives wrote:

If I am playing a big dumb lug but I come up with a genius plan on how to get in to a high tech base, is that ok?

At my table, the default answer there is "not for your character". What you as player do with other players towards helping one of them whose character could more plausibly come up with that plan would depend on circumstances (primarily, off the top of my head, how much in-game time you'd have to make the plan.)

Quote:

If the character is a super genius hacker but the player needs help to use google, how does it play out?

The player rolls dice a lot and does not try to portray something they're not capable of portraying.

Maybe it is just the people I tended to game with, but nobody put points in social skills or charisma unless it was a casting stat because the answer was always “why should I put points in diplomacy, if we are just going to talk it out anyway."

I have never understood this issue.

Role-playing can be done in any system, from almost no rules to super crunchy.

Numbers and skills and stats help define that.

It is why all characters start with a concept.

Numbers and crunch are up to the system, role-play is up to the player.

The issue is whether role-play will change the dice.

If I am playing a big dumb lug but I come up with a genius plan on how to get in to a high tech base, is that ok?

If the character is a super genius hacker but the player needs help to use google, how does it play out?

It would be fine if it was a free action and if it could work based on tracks or discription

it is yo balance out the fact they do not get the massive versatility of spells.

Just clearing up some misconceptions here.

1. All cantrips scale with your class level automatically. They do not become spells you have to cast of X level. If you are level 5 and cast Ray of Frost, it does its level 5 damage, still as a cantrip.

2. Most ranged weapons do not add a stat at all, and if they do they add only half strength. So if a noncaster wants ranged damage they have to have Dex to hit and str of at least 14 just to get a +1 damage.

3. Volley traits on longbows and composite longbows make them almost unusable, so people tend to carry a short bow, which does a D6.

4. Almost all cantrips add the casters stat to the damage starting at level 3 or 5. No non-caster ever gets that.

5. Casters make their spell attacks using their primary casting stat and add the same stat to damage. Also in this edition EVERY class will have high dex unless they are plate wearers anyway.

6. Spellduelist wands and Gloves, give + to hit to spell attacks, which progress slowly but are still only going to be about a +1 behind a normal weapon.

7. Most cantrips are ranged touch attacks, which are always lower than the normal AC.

EX. Level 5: Lets say they are fighting a Troll.

Fighter:

+1 Composite Shortbow with 14 strength: + 12 to hit for 2d6 + 1 Damage (8 damage) (deadly D8)
(Had to max dex and take 14 in strength)

Vs AC of 18 so hit rolling a 6-15, crit rolling 16-20
Hit: 50% for 8 damage
Crit: 25% Crit for 20

Average: 9 Damage

Lets say they shoot twice:
Now has only +7 to hit so needs an 11 to hit.
45% to hit for 8 damage
Crit only on a 20 so: 5% to do 20
Averages to 4.6, but lets round to 5 to make it look nice.

Fighter 2 shots: Roughly 14 damage. unless they went into PBS stance and the enemy has no bonuses.

Wizard:

Ray of Frost: +9 to hit for 2D8 + 4 (13 damage)
(Spent nothing but having their high primary stats, no gear, no items, no chance of losing the ability to use it.)
Vs TAC of 16 so hit rolling 7 or better
45% chance to hit for 13 damage. 5.85 average
20% chance to crit for 26 damage. 5.2

Average for the spell: 11

SO the wizard can do roughly 80% of the fighter damage for much less effort.

The fighter can not also use a shield because of his bow, but the wizard can still cast the cantrip shield if they have to.

Heck if they want the wizard could just fire a bow as well, and do even better. with a ROF/Bow shot.

Looks very fair to me.

Honestly, martials need something more to do.

I am just going to give him a "buckler", that is his sheath of his sword.

Considering it would occupy my hand while a buckler would not I am sure that would be a fair trade of a negative to have it be a scabbard.

Well, there *IS* a Cloak Shield but it's treated as an actual light shield. If your GM allows item modification, just borrow it and have it behave as a masterwork buckler instead.

There is also the Dueling Cape Deed. It's a combat/panache feat, so it might not help you if you aren't actually a swashbuckler.

Dueling Cape Deed is my backup plan if I can not find a way to use a scabbard as a buckler.

Essentially I am trying to build Killer Number 2, from the movie Bunraku if you have seen it.

If not, you should check it out, fun movie.

So my character plan is this.
A graceful swashbuckler type character, who uses a rapier in one hand but I would like him to use a "shield" in the other hand that is not a shield.

I know there is a feat that let's you use a cape or sash as a buckler, which I like.

However, I would really like it if he could somehow use his scabbard as a buckler.

Any feat, trait, magic item that can pull that off?

memorax wrote:

El Kabong

OK I feel a bard build coming on. . . .

Interestingly in 5th edition my Bard took magical lineage just to get shillelagh and goodberry, the GM let me cast it on my lute.

I used a wide based lute as one of my main instruments, I called it my a Fat Lute of Phat Loot.

As for the hammer, name it what my barbarian named his, Lockpick.

I love the movie Bunraku, I am using it as the basis for the villain setup in my campaign.

One huge city, ruled over by the master villain and his 10 killers.

Killer number 2 is a great villain with his fighting style and attitude.

So here are some criteria.

Must be human, or have a racial trait to look human.

Fights with the feat Combat Cloak so he has a scarf wrapped around his offhand as a buckler.

Uses a rapier as a main weapon, but fights with his sword in the sheath until he has to be serious.

I am thinking swashbuckler.

Stats are 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10
Level 12 total.
Can't cast spells.
Gear is 50% more gold than standard 12th level.

It would be nice if he did not have to wear armor but that is not 100% required.

A level 22 specialized and well built rogue/arcane trickster pickpocket.

Lady-J wrote:

the David wrote:

Whisperknives wrote:

Stats are 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10.

Whot? Is that 39 points worth of abilities?

I find it somewhat intriguing that you feel the need for such a high power level for your game. Where does this need come from?

its a fairly normal stat array.....

"I do not think it means what you think it means..."

In the games we play in, that is not going to make much difference.

We generally fight things of +4 CR or triple the number of things we should and our gm more than doubles their hp.

Ex. In the last campaign we were level 12, the fight before the boss consisted of a CR 16 shadow dragon with 2500 hp, 4 level 13 necromancers with 300 hp each, and 300 CR 2 skeletons.

The fight lasted 5 rounds, 1 of those rounds was nothing but the wizard casting a spell and the rest of us closing.

Ok let's say I have a blink back belt and have a BAB of 11, I have TWF and ITWF, and GTWF.

I carry one thrown weapon in my Blink back belt, maybe a dagger or javelin.

Can I quick draw and throw the weapon 3 times, and only use my main hand or can I quick draw the dagger with my main hand 3 times, and then because the dagger is still a weapon on my belt can I quick draw it again with my off hand for 6 attacks.

Is their any rule, in writing, in the book, that says I have to throw a different weapon?

True, the divine classes are well rounded that way.

A group of 5 inquisitors would be interesting and a nightmare for the npcs.

If I go alchemists I am thinking.

Ragebred feral mutagen vivisectionist
A mr Hyde type
A mad bomber type
A chirugeon
And a grenadier

The only issue with alchemists is lacking of good ability to take a hit.

I am toying with the idea of running a game with 5 players from level 1 to 20, Hoeven all 5 players will be of the same class.

The question is, which classes and archtypes work the best.

I can easily see a group of 5 clerics working as a group.

Same with 5 oracles, druids, bards, and vigilantes.

I am leaning toward alchemists, but am open to ideas for other classes.

Stats are 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10.
Alignments do not exist so neither do their requirements.
Any non oddball race 16 points or under works.
3rd party is fine within reason, ex. Most archtypes are fine unless they are built around using assault rifles or something.

Any ideas on class and archtype combinations?

He could spend the money in establishing his own guild for the party and install himself as guild leader. Welcome to plot for the next forever as they run a guild while being too low of level to handle most of its issues.

Great job people maybe I can eventually get through this giant stack of replies...

Plenipotentiary Potentate of the Penance Penitentiary

Even better mix up your beuracratic titles from different regions, ex have a "senior vice shogun of the viscount assistant to the duke."

Have one guy that they just call Kevin. That is his name, job title, and the only thing on his business card. (That is actually an old Shadowrun joke from our area, had a Shadowrunner named Kevin, his runner name was simply Kevin, and he had business cards that just said Kevin on the front.)

Ok, so here is my plan.

I have a group of NPCS I am making as an opposing group for my pcs, and I have so e odd criteria for them.

The PC group is:
Human Inspired Swashbuckler
Human Mutation Master Brawler
Human Cleaner Slayer
Human Bolt Ace Gunslinger
Elf White Mage Arcanist who is utility heals

The whole game is set in one huge city.

Here is the plan for the NPC team.

The leader is an arcane class of some kind, an elf, but flavor of caster does not matter but he needs to be good at social skills. He is the up front guy.

However he has 4 Wyrwood NPCS that follow him and fake being his pet constructs and or familiar/homunculous.

The leader does not really do much other that be the up front obvious guy while hos Wyrwood teammates sneak around and get the work done.

Rules for the team:

Leader has to be an Elf and Arcane of some kind with social skills.

The 4 Wyrwood NPCS have to have:

At least average or better stealth abilities.

Be self sufficient without their arcane backup.

I am thinking:

Alchemist bomber
Alchemist vivisectionist or promethian.
Magus of some kind.
Unchained Rogue
Or something else out of the blue.

Any ideas?

CupcakeNautilus wrote:

The Kineticist is so so much better than the Warlock Vigilante.

I wouldn't go quite that far. Warlock Vigilante is better at social stuff and a 6-level caster from the best spell list in the game.

Kineticist is much better as a straight damage dealer, however. A focused Warlock can probably do on-par damage to turn-in turn-out touch-attack Kineticist damage if using Rapid Shot, TWF, and Arcane Striker, but the Kineticist can spike much higher at need and/or if going with Physical Blasts (which will probably still hit, given the one attack per round), and (unlike Warlock) low amounts of Energy Resistance don't screw you completely.

If third-party content is allowed like the ones I listed in the original post then the Warlock damage goes up considerably the first one allows you to cast off intelligence as well as basing most charisma talents on int instead and the second lets you add intelligence to the damage of your bolts and it allows them to be affected by feats like deadly aim and piranha strike. In the same book there is also a vigilante talent that gives you point-blank shot and precise shot that only applies to your bolts and there is another talent that gives you the two weapon fighting tree that progresses as you level

Ok so here is the deal, I loved 3.5 warlock and I want to try the equivalent in pathfinder, but as we all know Kinetecist is pretty much unplayable.

However Warlock Vigilante looks awesome, but I do not care for the dual identity and social talents. Consumed takes care of all of that, but here is the issue.

I can not find info on the specifics of consumed archtype, so help a brother out.

Human, stats are 10 12 14 14 16 18

Going to take mystic accuracy and genius vigilante at level 1.

Past that I got no info to go on.

Guys I really need some advice with an issues here,

In my current game we have a player who is playing a LE ninja/assassin and the campaign is coming to a close. The GM now wants to run a homebrew that I really want to play a LE ninja/assassin but I don't want to just come across as playing the same thing.

Does anyone have some words of advice for me?

I had a very similar situation come up about 2 years ago, we were making a 3 man game where evil was fine if lawful, my buddy picked ninja first.

I went with slayer, cleaner specifically.
It worked out great.

Also unchained rogue is also amazing.

Cool idea - if I had any experience at all with the Vigilante, I'd probably have some cool insight. With that warning, I'd say any class that rewards a high Cha score (Paladin, Cleric, Oracle, Bard, Swashbuckler, Sorcerer, Arcanist, etc). I'm a big fan of the Medium class from Occult Adventures. You could make one of the characters a daily swiss-army knife by channeling different spirits, while using the Vigilante class to focus on combat.

Why can't they build their own characters?

The reason they can't make their own characters is that they are lazy stoners and would never do it.

I am planning to run a game for a few friends and have decided to make gestalt characters for them to play, however here is where it gets tricky.

1. The entire campaign is going to be set in one city from level 1 to 20, they will travel every once in a while to handle things but the mega city will always be the main hub.

2. There will only be 3 people in the game, that way I will give more 1 on 1 time to each player and the challenge can be balanced easier.

3. The races do not have to be the same but I am leaning toward 3 different breeds of Aasimar, but no rolling on the alternate trait table

4. Here is the big one, for each gestalt character one of the classes has to be Vigilante 1 to 20, but you can do whatever archtype in vigilante you want to make it fit easier.

4. Stats are: 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10.

So, what combo of vigilante archtype and class makes a 3 person group work the best?

I will never understand the double standard for this.

I can not even tell you how many times a wizard/sorcerer blasts a party member and it is always, "Well, you should not charge until the casters throws a spell."

If someone does it with a bomb, however it just becomes, "why are you targeting teammates, just stand back."

Double standard as always.

However, to fix the issue.

1. If you want to charge the enemy just hold your action to do it just after the bomb, or go ahead and charge and take the damage.

2. If you are already in melee with the creature, I would hope that the alchemist memorized Targeted Bomb Admixture, it is great and level 1. I always keep at least one one hand simply because against a single target it is a nice damage boost.

or,

3. Just throw the bomb behind the target and hurt it some with the splash damage alone.

What is your belief on role playing stats that are outside the norm?

Mid level stats are easy, stats from 8 - 20 are not too tough but what about the extremes.

Maybe this will help those trying to figure out how to role play their characters with outlier stats.

Low: 5 and under
High: 25 and up

Strength:

It is not usually that hard to role play strength as a stat.

LOW:
- you have trouble carrying things
- trouble with moving objects or even moving through certain terrain
- as for help with physical activities

HIGH:
- mostly just showing off
- carry most of the party gear
- push around heavy things

Dex:

LOW:
- You drop things
- You are generally clumsy
- Have trouble with fine motor skills

HIGH:
- You make quick reactions
- You might even perform dexterous stunts such as juggling or gymnastics
- Move light on your feet

Constitution:

LOW:
- You get tired quicker
- Might get a cold or sick on occasion
- Generally frail and can't take a hit

HIGH:
- Heavy drinking
- Rarely getting tired
- Skipping meals/sleep/rations

Here comes the harder ones.

Intelligence:

LOW:
- Get facts wrong
- Forget things often (could be a wis thing too)
- Lack of common knowledge

HIGH:
- Keen knowledge of many subjects
- Fast deduction of info.
- Wide spread talents in many areas.

Wisdom:

LOW:
- Horrible decision making
- Gullibility
- Bad judge of things
- Oblivious

HIGH:
- Self assured
- Tactical accumen
- Good judgment of people and situations

Charisma:

LOW:
- Bad with words
- Bad attitude
- No tact at all

HIGH:
- Very convincing speech
- Manipulating others
- Center of attention

EX.

I am currently playing a Slayer with a Dex of 24 but a Charisma 7.

I tend to walk quietly, flip around a coin/dagger absentmindedly, and such to show the Dex but conversely my character never really keeps his opinion to himself, and is pretty much a jerk to everyone.

What are your thoughts and added ideas.

Thanks for all the advice guys, I am liking the Empiricist or Alchemist ideas the best, i will see what I can theory craft out of it.

As others have noted, Empiricist Investigator sounds like the rebuild you want. You'll likely remain about as good in combat (Studied Combat is amazing) with the exception of maybe losing a couple of Feats, Without A Trace and Misdirection...and will instead gain 6-level casting base on Int.

That's quite a lot more utility, right there. You'll also get Investigator Talents, many of which are amazing, and Inspiration, which is quite cool in it's own right. Also, Trapfinding, not that that's a big deal, but it'll be handy.

You might nee to burn a Feat or a level to keep using a pickaxe, but that's doable, and the rest works out very well indeed.

I am not looking to rebuild, I am looking at what to take after level 7.

Need to clarify some things -

1) It sounds like you're playing a very social game. How much combat do you see in a play session?

2) How will built is you're character for diplomacy and other non-aggressive social stuff?

3) Is your real problem the lack of 'fighting' type encounters?

Can we get a brief example on how a average play session goes?

1. We have combat about once every 4 sessions.

2. Total after all factors:

Diplomacy: 15
Intimidate: 18
Disguise: 18
Bluff: 23 (if covering a lie)
Survival: 16
Stealth: 18
Perception: 17

Other skills there for flavor and just in case.

3. Lack of combat encounters is bothersome but not that big of a deal. It is more just that In combat all I do sneak/run up and hit them with a pick axe, outside of combat all I am is a set of skills that everyone in the group also has but they have ninja tricks or Bard abilities to back them up.

What's your alignment?

We do not use alignments but if I did I would definitely be Lawful Evil.

I wish they would have reprinted Bloodhound from 3.5

I would not bring them back alive but I am the hunt them down kind of guy.

How about switching over to a Vanguard? Gives you more tricks up your sleeve.

I liked the look of it, but I could not do it with Cleaner, and the cleaner ability is amazing.

I'd retrain to a Cleric or Warpriest, or perhaps an Inquisitor. You are likely getting bored of a martial, which is fine, so why not try a half-caster half-martial?

I love martial classes, that is not really the issue, I looked as the Slayer class and specifically the Cleaner archtype, and said, "Hey I love the cleaner idea." We are all a big crime syndicate, so it is very useful. However, unless I have to fake a crime scene or we are heading into an obvious fight it is usually sitting back while the Bard and Ninja do everything.

I think Inquisitor or even Paladin (we do not use alignments so paladin's have no restrictions.) would be great thematically or story wise, but i do not have the right stats to support it.

I will look into either empiricist Investigator or Vivisectionist Alchemist.

Whisperknives wrote:

Protoman wrote:

Investigator? Empiricist Investigator? All the talents look pretty fun.

I don't know if you guys get traits or not, but student of philosophy would go well with your stats if you're investing in bluff and diplomacy.

I looked at Empiricst, and like the flair of it.

I will edit in the traits but yes I have:

Student of Philosophy and Clever Word Play, to cover my horribly charisma.

Hmm usually you can't take those two traits as they're both social traits. But if you guys houseruled away that restriction, cool.

Your character sounds like Dexter. Maybe be "tortured" that you feel compelled to wipe these stains of unfulfilled vengeance (the targets) and their actual stains (the crime scenes). While you know you're doing what you need to, you also know that you're acting as judge, jury, executioner, and CSI clean up crew and what you do isn't sanctioned by any legal/moral authority.

I have never seen Dexter but many people have told me I would like it.

Yeah we got rid of that stupid trait rule, it made no sense.

My character is more having the issues of, as he told the leader of a cult a few games ago. "I am evil, but the world needs me. I know someday that will become that I hate, I am a murderer, I am a monster, someday, someone will take vengeance on me... so be it."

Also he is so obsessed with his work that I know he can not do it in my lifetime, he is looking to become immortal.

Investigator? Empiricist Investigator? All the talents look pretty fun.

I don't know if you guys get traits or not, but student of philosophy would go well with your stats if you're investing in bluff and diplomacy.

I looked at Empiricst, and like the flair of it.

I will edit in the traits but yes I have:

Student of Philosophy and Clever Word Play, to cover my horribly charisma.