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Pathfinder Society Member. 4,701 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 alias.


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Shadow Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
My original point is that Lawful/Chaotic subjects should be just as easily determined as Good/Evil subjects, and as such, should be just as easily prepared against. The fact that they aren't changes the paradigm of power significantly between the four alignments (i.e. for optimizing and powergaming purposes, Good/Evil alignments suck unless you absolutely need them for something, such as being a Paladin). If you're simply a Lawful/Chaotic character, the likelihood for enemies to be using Axiomatic/Anarchic weapons, or Anti-Lawful/Anti-Chaotic spells against you, unless they too, are Chaotic/Lawful, respectively, are extremely reduced (and if you're True Neutral, you're basically immune to anything that requires specific Alignments, or you suffer the least effects, both benefits and penalties, of every Alignment-based effect).

I think this is by design. If the conflict between Law and Chaos were as important in the game as the conflict between Good and Evil, then it would be just as difficult to have parties with both Lawful and Chaotic party members as it would be to have Good and Evil party members, eliminating a source of interesting but usually not disruptive party disagreement.

And if you're going to have one axis being superior it makes sense for it to be G/E for the reasons other posters suggested - G/E is a bigger part of the larger culture than L/C, and L/C isn't all that well defined in any case (maybe a chicken and egg issue, but result is the same).

I actually redesigned my current setting to focus more on the Law/Chaos side. Archons and Devils now have DR/Chaotic, Demons and Azata have DR/Lawful, and there are some relatively easy physical markers. For example, in this setting, outsiders with both animal and humanoid parts are chaotic - azata and demons have feathered, batlike, or insectoid wings while wings of archons and devils are constructed of metal, light, shadow, flame etc. It's been interesting but more as a diversion. In fact I think it's trending in the general direction of LG vs CE as the party has been going out of their way to mediate disputes wherever possible in a way that gets the grudging respect of a lot of CG opponents.

I remember seeing a post by James Jacobs explaining that the L/C conflict was pretty significant on the outer planes but usually wasn't as relevant to mortals. Can't find it, though.

Shadow Lodge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Don't confuse psychopathy with fanatacism. Remember that they are divine champions of a deity, and they follow the teachings and code set by their deity. The code of their deity says "Show no mercy, and take no prisoners unless tactically beneficial." That's not Good (which Torag isn't)

Torag is in fact Lawful Good.

HWalsh wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:
swoosh wrote:
So you can't imagine a single good concept that doesn't intrinsically require compassion and pity?

Excellent question!

I suppose characters can have other admirable qualities like being courageous and honest. But if you want to define what good means, that is what traits all good characters share, then compassion makes sense. Ruthlessness by contrast would be an evil trait.

Gwyn of Iomedae, Paladin of Iomedae.

Gwyn offered every enemy he ever fought a chance to surrender. He took no pleasure in killing. Once the enemy refused surrender though Gwyn of Iomedae did not hold back.


By your definitions he wouldn't be a Paladin. Despite his attempts (and successes) at redeeming enemies. He was as text book as one got as a Paladin.

He once even had an enemy surrender but won the sense Motive to realize he was lying so he could get close enough to stab him. Gwyn shook his head, "May you find mercy in death." He said as he killed him.

Good doesn't mean someone who doesn't kill. It means someone who protects others.

In your description, Gwyn appears to show a great deal of compassion and pity, even when required to kill his enemies. Therefore he is not at all ruthless.

The question at hand is not whether you can be good and still kill but whether you can be good without feeling compassion and pity.

I'd say no, compassion is basically the definition of goodness. If all you do is destroy evil without compassion for others, you're actually neutral.

I do agree that some good characters might appear ruthless if their actions are observed without an understanding of context. Triage can look pretty pitiless to those deemed too costly to save. However I personally prefer to play those that are also outwardly compassionate.

Shadow Lodge

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74. Nymph's Wort. Tea made from the leaves of this unremarkable herb causes mild, pleasant hallucinations lasting approximately one hour. However, excessive consumption of this tea can cause blindness.

75. Peacock Ivy. The leaves of this vine are iridescent and patterned in a way that resembles peacock feathers. The ivy is popular as a component in bouquets - where it symbolizes beauty if arranged among the other plants and jealousy if wrapped around them - and wreaths, where it symbolizes watchfulness. As a product of magical breeding, Peacock Ivy is very fragile. It is almost never found in the wild and requires a DC 20 Profession (Gardener) check to cultivate.

Shadow Lodge

I'm GMing for a vampire right now. I gave him a stripped down version of the template to start (mostly just blood drain and immunity to ability damage, poison, disease, sleep) and then have been adding on the other special abilities slowly - as a Nosferatu he has spider climb and telepathy now at level 8. He has a custom cloak to negate the sunlight weakness, and it's not too hard to cart around a coffin once you have extradimensional storage.

Other party members are also getting special abilities to bring them up to a similar power level, though they're coming in at a slightly different rate for story reasons. A bit of homebrew, but I stole heavily from the Mythic rules.

Staggering out the abilities works better for us since we started from level 1 and the template was acquired around level 5-6. The in-game reasoning is that the character is still a very young vampire coming into his power over time. If you're starting at a higher level it might be simpler just to tack on the whole template but unless it's an all-vampire party (which would be a lot of fun...) the GM needs to be willing to adjust for power as they play. CR is after all intended to measure a monster's threat level as an opponent to a standard party, and some abilities that are balanced for an opponent can be unbalancing in a PC (at will Dominate for example).

Shadow Lodge

I'd say that threatening innocents and especially children is, absent mitigating factors, an evil act.

Depending on the ethical system, the fact that your end goal is a significant good might make this a nonevil act, or just make it somewhat less evil.

In any case, it shouldn't be enough to change your alignment outright, especially since it wasn't your first resort. Alignment describes your typical behavior; good characters are allowed to occasionally do evil things, especially when under pressure.

Glad you're satisfied with the outcome.

Valamuur wrote:
Gnomes and halflings can intimidate just as well as a towering giant, and it isn't because the gnomes and halflings are using enormous weapons to back up their checks.

There is a -4 penalty for trying to Intimidate someone larger than you. Intimidation isn't all or even mostly about physical threat, but it helps.

Shadow Lodge

Cuup wrote:
For example, the Lyrakien's entry states that a spellcaster MUST be CG.

Technically, it says "a chaotic good 7th-level spellcaster can gain a lyrakien" which doesn't explicitly contradict spellcasters of other alignments getting one as per the general rule. Compare Ratling which actually does say "In order to gain a ratling familiar, the spellcaster must be chaotic evil." (Ordinarily I'd find this a pretty weak argument but given the oddities with familiar alignment restrictions in general...)

Cuup wrote:
These entries would appear to be the specific rule, which would overrule the general rule of the Improved Familiar feat, and yet, I can't think of any Familiars that DON'T have these more specific caveats in their entries, which basically makes the related wording in the Improved Familiar description pointless.

There are some. Imp doesn't say anything about alignment. Pseudodragon just says it must "approve of the master's personality" which is compatible with the general rule that the master can't be more than a step away on either axis (thus nonevil in the pseudodragon's case).

Gisher wrote:
They are weird sometimes. I'll never understand why you have to be LG to have a NG Cassisian.

That's probably the weirdest. Also why the skvader (TN magical beast, Int 4) cares about its master's alignment beyond the general rule, but the ceru (NG magical beast, Int 13) doesn't.

Shadow Lodge

A) No, unfortunately.

B) Yes. "Once the kineticist adds points to her buffer, they remain indefinitely until she spends them."

C) While Gather Power might cause problems by alerting new enemies to your presence I would only expect it to make you a priority target if you're

Shadow Lodge

I have to admit that I don't use the RAW familiar alignment restrictions but are you sure the reference to a Chaotic Good master in the bestiary entry is actually intended to overrule the general "one step on each axis" rule? Because the master alignment references in the bestiaries are all over the place and I'm frankly not sure anyone was paying attention.

And as a GM, do you care?

If you're following the bestiary restrictions, I think the only good familiars that will take a TN master are the caypup and pseudodragon, with the pseudodragon being superior at both scouting and face roles.

Shadow Lodge

I think the Imp Consular is the best scout, closely followed by the Doru Div, then normal Imp, then the Cacaodaemon, then the Quasit. All of them get at-will invisibility, a perfect fly speed, decent perception, and darkvision. Everything except the Quasit gets constant detect good and detect magic (the Quasit gets these at-will, which means concentration is necessary). Imp and Doru both get see in darkness. Doru and cacaodaemon get 3 starting ranks in stealth, though the cacaodaemon has a lower Dex. Consular gets the best animal shapeshifting, the rest get limited, and Doru gets none - though that's not a big weakness for scouting since it's unlikely anyone will see through a combination of at-will invisibility and high Stealth. Raktavarna is definitely neat, but I think there's a difference between utility as a spy and as a scout and the Raktavarna is the former - it's immobile in object form. And in its normal form, it's slower and can't fly.

On the Face side, the Imp, Doru, and Raktavarna have the best Cha (14). That plus 12 Wis means you could get OK Diplomacy and Sense Motive skills with ranks from Sage (Diplomacy is not a class skill but Sense Motive is for all outsiders). The Doru also has more enchantment SLAs - the save DC is low but still might be occasionally useful. However I think the Raktavarna wins this one with extra bonuses to bluff, disguise, and sense motive, and 3 ranks in sense motive in addition to bluff. Quasit has Intimidate as a class skill, but that doesn't do much more than make up for its Cha 11.

Doru and Cacaodaemon get best telepathy (100ft) followed by the consular (50ft), then the Quasit (touch), then the normal Imp (none). Raktavarna doesn't have telepathy either, but Master's Eyes can provide a similar function in terms of relaying information back.

So overall I'd say Consular is best mobile scout, Raktavarna is best face/spy, and Doru is best balance. Not a huge difference though - any of them will work fine.

Shadow Lodge

The lyrakien is probably the best both as a scout and face.

Scouting: constant detect evil, detect magic, and freedom of movement; great stealth, good Perception, Fly 80ft (perfect).

Face: Truespeech, Cha 20, good Bluff & Diplomacy. Wis 17 so could have a good Sense Motive with skill ranks from Sage.

Starlight Blast is problematic for a TN master but just don't use it too close.

Shadow Lodge

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Yeah, I find it difficult too. It can be challenging to find items that are useful to the NPC but also for the PCs. I also try to include at least one interesting or unusual item, like an Elixir of Fire Breath or viridium dagger. The equipment tables in Ultimate Equipment can be really useful for those.

Going by the gear categories in the NPC creation guidelines:

Weapons (martial): Masterwork or Magic Weapon(s), Amulet of Mighty Fists, Stat Belt. For the weapon you can just go with the highest enhancement bonus the NPC can afford, though I often like to add a property as appropriate to the NPC's personality or tactics. It's hard to go wrong with Keen, Flaming/Frost/Shock/Corrosive, and for ranged weapons Seeking. Sometimes you can justify Bane (PC type) but don't overuse it. Unholy packs a punch but usually makes the weapon difficult for the PCs to use or sometimes even sell. I usually budget for the primary weapon first, then the stat belt, then a secondary weapon if there's money left over (often a composite bow and a few fancy arrows, or a silver or cold iron weapon).

Weapons (caster): Stat Headband, Metamagic Rods (Empower, Toppling, Rime, Concussive, Dazing, Persistent), Wands (Magic Missile, Obscuring Mist, Scorching Ray)

Protection: Armour, Shield, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armour, Cloak of Resistance, Bracers of Armour, Cloak of Displacement. Armour and Shield usually give the NPC the most bang for their buck but I find that they're less likely to be an upgrade on the party's equipment than the other items so if you want to make your players happy consider putting most of the money towards one or two of the Ring, Amulet, Cloak, or Bracers and leaving the Armour/Shield masterwork (and possibly a special material).

Magic: Ring of Sustenance, Ring of Feather Falling, Ring of Wizardry, Ring of Spell Storing, Ring of Freedom of Movement, Boots of Speed, Boots of Striding and Springing, Boots of the Cat, Boots of Elvenkind, Efficient Quiver, Lenses of Detection, Goggles of Night, Gloves of Arrow Snaring, Glove of Storing, Hat of Disguise, Sleeves of Many Garments, Bracers of Archery, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Circlet of Persuasion, Pearls/Runestones of Power, Traveler's Any-Tool, Campfire Bead, Handy Haversack, Bag of Holding, Metamagic Rod (Extend, Reach, Quicken).

Build specific items like a Robe of Arcane Heritage, Monk's Robe, Gloves of Dueling, Sniper Goggles, Phylactery of Positive/Negative Channeling, Gloves of Arcane Striking, or Pages of Spell Knowledge can also be good picks if you have a party member who can use them.

Limited Use: Feather Tokens, Elixirs of Hiding/Swimming/Tumbling/Vision, Wands (Cure Light Wounds, Mage Armor), Potions/Oils (Magic Weapon, Enlarge Person, Touch of the Sea, Lesser Restoration, Fly, Heroism, Neutralize Poison, Gaseous Form, Water Breathing); Scrolls (Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, Break Enchantment, See Invisibility), Alchemist's Fire, Acid, Antitoxin, Tanglefoot bag. I tend to randomly generate some of these, editing a little if something isn't a good fit for the NPC. This gives me more variety on the spells in potions, wands, and scrolls.

Shadow Lodge

One of the nine.

"Evil" is not itself a complete alignment, it's an alignment component.

Shadow Lodge

Ventnor wrote:
Is it the same as the material that makes up the body of Lawful Good Outsiders? Does it actively seek out Paladins, or is it sought out? What about one particular code of conduct that crosses cultural, spacial, and planar boundaries allows mortals to use it? ARE mortals using it, or is it more they make a deal with it?

My personal take, which I think is consistent with though not particularly supported by the rules:

1) Yes.

2) Both. It is drawn towards persons who are Lawful and Good, so it can empower a paladin who isn't seeking to become a paladin. But by striving actively to uphold the moral standards of paladin-hood, a person can also attract it. There are probably some other factors that affect who manifests paladin abilities. You may need a lot of faith to effectively channel this divine power, for example, and faith in a deity serves as a good focus. The charisma focus of the class also suggests that a strong sense of self is important.

3) Aside from the restriction against poison, the paladin's code practically a summary of the lawful good alignment: help the innocent (good), punish the wicked (good, maybe lawful), respect authority (lawful), be honourable (lawful). Apparently there's a legacy issue where poison used to be defined as evil and isn't anymore but is still included in the code among other non-LG actions. As a result I personally would treat it as an example of something that's usually considered culturally dishonourable. Deity-specific codes can also be considered specific forms of respecting authority (of the church) and acting with honour (oath-keeping). So really the code is just saying "here is the standards of lawful goodness required to attract/use the divine forces of law and good." In total I don't find the code being applicable across cultures any weirder than alignment being applicable across cultures. Some general moral precepts have physical consequences in the world.

4) Mortals use it, though they may perceive it as making a deal with a deity because metaphysics are confusing.

p-sto wrote:

I've seen this argument a few times on the forums yet I'm still not sure what there is to support it. The CRB write up on clerics is more strongly written than paladins explicitly stating that they can get spells from following an ideal but it's been stated multiple times that this isn't how clerics work on Golarian.

In contrast looking at the paladin write up a class feature like Divine Bond is stated to come strictly from the paladin's deity. In a different campaign setting I might be more flexible but to me in Golarion paladins get their powers from gods.

Are you aware that the guy in charge of Golarion disagrees?

Shadow Lodge

Qaianna wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
It does sound like a cool game though. Kind of suprised it's unchained Monk, as normal monk with archetypes would allow for more character variety.
Agreed on surprise. Everyone gets full BAB and two good saves (tho normal monk would give all three). And unless there's more to the homebrew you're seeing few druids and no barbarians ... *puts on sad barbarian face*

Yeah, I'd put unchained monk on the table, but also allow core monk & associated archetypes for variety.

Shadow Lodge

The spiritualist doesn't gain spells, they gain spell-like abilities. Note the (Sp) next to "Commune with Spirits" and the fact they don't get normal spell slots.

Spell-like abilities can't be used to qualify for Arcane Strike.

Shadow Lodge

MeanMutton wrote:
Fair enough - Sticking to the core rulebook, it says that paladins serve a diety and are rewarded for their righteousness with their powers.

Yes, but it doesn't imply that the deities the paladins serve are also the agents doing the rewarding:

"Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests..."

The deities and the powers are mentioned in different sentences, separated by a reference to the code of conduct.

The CRB also directly states (in the Magic chapter, under Divine Spells) that while "Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces," "the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells." Divine forces in this case appear to be something distinct from deities. In what way they are distinct is somewhat vauge, but I think it's intended to at least leave open the option that these forces are not sentient and that paladin falls result from some sort of alignment metaphysics rather than a conscious judgment.

Shadow Lodge

I'm glad that playstyle is fun for you and your group.

The fact remains that not everyone will share your playstyle.

If I were providing advice based on my playstyle I would, for example, say "Who cares if you have to spend inspiration on every attack you want to augment? You'll probably only spend a few rounds in combat in a day" or "Monster Lore isn't a very good ability because most of the Knowledge checks you'll make will be for things other than monster identification."

But for most people that's bad advice, so I try to point out these advantages and disadvantages in a more neutral manner.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
It was in Hero Maker along with other unchained archetypes for the other unchained classes. They changed some of the abilities around to match the unchained monk. It is not official but seems to work fairly well.

It's nice that they include that option for people who do want to convert core monk archetypes to unchained, but also important to point out that not only is it not official, the official position is that you shouldn't do that partly because of balance concerns.

Shadow Lodge

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

When I run I don’t limit myself to level appropriate challenges. I often throw numerous weaker foes at the party for several reasons. ...

This can lead to some memorable fights. I once had the party kill off nearly two hundred Black Skeletons in a single encounter. ... The fight lasted around 14 turns. ... I base my advice on my own play style so the ability to fight in extended fights is valuable. I make heavy use of a laptop so the battles don’t bog down. This battle did take an entire game session though but no one was bored.

See, this is why I try not to base my advice on my playstyle. Or at least to be as clear as possible about the assumptions I'm making.

My group also doesn't limit itself to CR appropriate enemies, but it tends to go in the opposite direction. We have few encounters per day/session, they tend to be very challenging (maybe CR=APL+5, hard to tell, we homebrew a lot), and we often nova. A CR=APL creature is basically a minion for us. I think we do about one encounter a campaign with large numbers of creatures below APL.

I don't think that a 14 turn fight against 200 enemies lasting an entire game session is remotely representative of a typical PF experience any more than my "two combats a day is basically unlimited" experience is representative. Of course, as I mentioned before if OP finds himself at a table that runs into a lot of mooks he will get very good use out of Domino Effect to keep Studied Combat active.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

There is a zen archer archetype for the unchained monk.

The zen archer archetype would of course require GM permission.

When did this come out? Or do you mean just applying the zen archer archetype to the unchained monk? That certainly would require GM permission and is probably unbalanced given that the zen archer's strong offensive abilities are supposed to compensate for the core monk not having enough offense.

Sanctified Slayer is good if you tend to have more combats per day, but as Studied Target takes a swift action per target as opposed to a swift action per combat to establish, it is less useful in combats with many enemies.

Shadow Lodge

Dwarftr wrote:
An amulet of mighty fists will work with all my naturals? Bite/claw and so on?

Yes, one amulet covers everything.

Shadow Lodge

The reliable damage advantage was from studied combat alone, not counting inspiration (because you're correct, that's not reliable, it's a limited resource) or studied strike (which is likewise not something you use on every attack).

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Studied combat also use a swift action (with quick study) and can only be used on one target at a time and only last a limited time. This makes it useless against multiple targets per round.

The duration of Studied Combat is rarely an issue in my experience since an archer investigator can usually drop the target in the 3+ rounds it lasts.

Since spreading out damage between multiple targets is usually a bad tactical decision, I'm assuming that you're talking about a situation in which you are dropping your target with less than a full attack. Again, that doesn't happen often in my experience - usually the enemies my group fights are at least strong enough that it takes one full round to drop them. If you do fight a lot of mooks, Domino Effect lets you establish a new Studied Combat as a free action when you drop your current target. Note that the build posted had a free talent at level 5, which could be used here.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
It also means that just like the inquisitor the investigator will take several rounds to fully buff himself up. Once buffed the inquisitor is ready to go and only needs to use an action if he needs to change something. All his abilities continue to function until the combat is over, or in the case of bane he runs out of rounds. The investigator is constantly using swift and move actions to keep his abilities functioning.

This is true for the Inquisitor, but not for the Monk, which needs to spend a swift action and a ki point every round to get extra attacks in its flurry - something that they won't be able to start doing until round 2 or 3, after they've activated whatever Inquisitor buffs they want to use.

While the Investifighter may need to spend swift actions to maintain Studied Combat, depending on enemy durability, it doesn't have to spend additional actions for inspiration or studied strike and is potentially dealing peak damage at round 1. On the other hand, the limitations on these abilities does appear to cap the Investifighter's damage lower than the Zenquisitor as noted in my summary.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Also studied strike is precision damage so does not multiple on a critical hit. This further puts the zen archer/inquisitor ahead on damage. Especially when you reach 10th level and can roll three times to hit and chose the highest roll. Assuming improved critical or some other method of getting a 19-20 threat range this gives the zen archer a 27% chance to crit.

That's pretty good, but remember you can only use Perfect Strike once per round, and the extra damage dice from Bane don't multiply on a crit either.

Shadow Lodge

Aside from mobility and stalwart, all of that is covered by "high peak offense."

Shadow Lodge

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67. Meat Apple. This small apple tree appears unremarkable, but biting into one reveals a meaty flesh similar to rare beef. The plant requires levels of iron in the soil which would be toxic to most plants. Cultivation requires careful fertilization, and a DC 18 Profession (Gardener) check.

Shadow Lodge

Bane Baldric doesn't give you Greater Bane early, though some folks think it should.

I don't doubt that the Zen Archer has better peak damage, but Melkiador is also correct that it takes several rounds to get your buffs in a line and the limited use is a significant limitation until higher levels. Given the math error, the Investigator//Fighter has a stronger offense using only their reliable buff (studied combat). Even if they are blocked by cover (which will not happen all the time - in my experience maybe 1/3 of the time) they still have an equivalent attack bonus to the base Zenquisitor and higher damage from Manyshot.

Do people feel this is a fair summary?

Zen Archer Monk//Inquisitor

  • High peak damage
  • Most flexibility with feats
  • Can function in melee range
  • Best social skills (esp. Intimidate, Sense Motive)
  • Good monster identification
  • Tracking

  • Mediocre Int skills aside from Monster Lore
  • Least magical flexibility
  • Requires lots of actions to buff, especially swift actions
  • Delayed access to Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots


  • Best reliable damage
  • Best Int-based skills, very strong skills generally
  • Good magical utility and defense
  • Trapfinding

  • No early access to Improved Precise Shot
  • Lower peak damage

Variations on Eldritch Archer

  • Best magical control/debuffing
  • Best action economy (ranged spell combat)
  • High peak damage (comparable to Zen//Quisitor?)
  • Potentially tracking and/or trapfinding with Slayer
  • Decent number of skill ranks, Int-based skills

  • Most feat hungry
  • Most reliant on spells for power
  • No great skills

Shadow Lodge

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +13

+1 adaptive composite longbow flurry of blows +15/+15/+10 (1d8+6/×3)

Where are these numbers coming from? I think unbuffed you should be getting saves of +8 to +11 (+5 base, +2 or 5 stat, +1 resistance) and an attack bonus of +11 (+4 base flurry, +5 wis, +1 magic, +1 weapon focus). Is it counting a bonus I'm not, or is it messing up the math on gestalt?

Melkiador - I don't like stat dumping either, but to make a fair comparison it's important to use a similar level of stat optimization - and not forget about stat items, and use the race that the OP requested (which gives you more favourable stat modifiers).


Tiefling Investigator//Fighter(Mutation Warrior) 6

Str 14, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 5

Attack routine (unbuffed): +12/+12/+7 (2d6+12 on first, then d6+6)
Attack routine (studied combat): +15/+15/+10 (2d6+18, then d6+9)
Attack routine (sc+mutagen): +17/+17/+12 (2d6+18, d6+9)

AC 20 (+5 chain, +5 Dex)
HP 52 (6d10+12)
Fort +8 (+12 vs poison) Ref +11 Will +7 (+9 vs fear)

Skills: 10*level ranks (includes FCB) plus inspiration
eg Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, Planes, Religion, Local) +12+d6, Spellcraft +12+d6, Stealth +14, Perception +10, Disable Device +12, plus 6 ranks for minor skills.

Gear: +1 adaptive shortbow, +2 belt of dex, +1 mithral chain shirt, +1 cloak of resistance, efficient quiver, 2700gp

Misc bonuses: make knowledge skills untrained, trapfinding, trap sense +2, poison lore, swift alchemy, additional investigator talent, racial stuff.

AC is a little lower than the Zenquisitor, but HP is higher and the Investigator gets better AC buffs than the Inquisitor (6th level Barkskin + Shield = 27 > your buffed 25). Gets 2 more skills per level and the Knowledge and Spellcraft skills are much better, aside from Monster Lore which is comparable (+15.5 with free inspiration vs +16). Trapfinding may also be important, depending on campaign. Offensive analysis pending your math check.

Shadow Lodge

Did you want one of each or just one of either?

Occultist works very well with martials that don't need Wis or Cha - I like Occultist//Slayer. Full BAB, perfect saves, good combat bonuses (studied target, some slayer talents, transmuation and abjuration implements), and good utility (6+Int skills on a character with high Int, other implements & talents).

Occultist also works pretty well with Int-based full casters. The evocation, conjuration, and necromancy implements give passive bonuses to spells cast from other classes, and of course the defensive and utility abilities are still nice here.

My favourite Medium gestalt is with Paladin. Champion and Guardian both have good combat buffs, and the other spirits all add useful utility (though archmage's ASF is a pain if you're using the paladin's heavy armour). The 4+Int skills and base 4 level spellcasting means you have better utility than a paladin even with a combat spirit. Medium//Bloodrager is also pretty good, though it doesn't necessarily have a high enough Cha to make use of the spellcasting spirits like a Medium//Paladin should.

I'm not too familiar with Spiritualist, but Ectoplasmatist gives you light or one-handed reach weapons, which means you can combine it with TWF, Shield Bashing, or einhander style. Fractured Mind archetype lets you use Cha instead of Wis.

Shadow Lodge

You only need a 13 Dex for ZAM, but if you're already buying a 13 you might as well take the 14 and get an extra +1 to AC, Initiative, and your level 1-2 ranged attack. It's cheaper than bumping Wis to 20.

And if you're planning on spending early levels in melee you really do want that extra point of AC - and/or extra Con since you're working with a d8 instead of d10 HD. Or you could spend your FCB on HP while the Investigator//Fighter snags yet another skill point.

Seriously, given 18 point buy both should probably buy 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and end up with 13 18 12 16 10 6 for the I//F, 14 14 13 10 18 6 for the ZQ.

Shadow Lodge

I think between the Eldritch Archer//Ranger, Zen Archer//Inquisitor, and Investigator//Fighter it's really a matter of personal taste and the specifics of the other two characters' skills and control/debuff potential.

@Melkiador - Good catch on the range of Ranged Study!

Atarlost wrote:
(Improved Monster Lore) is a feat on an archer. There are a lot of archery feats.

As Mysterious Stranger mentioned above, the Zen Archer does get most of the archery basics baked in, whether as bonus feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Point Blank Master) or roughly equivalent class features (Flurry replaces Rapid Shot & Manyshot, Reflexive Shot replaces Snap Shot). Using a feat or two for skills is not a problem, unlike for example the Eldritch Archer//Ranger.

Atarlost wrote:

If you're dropping a feat you need to compare to the investigator also using a feat on ranged study. He's 6+int with inspiration giving free +1d6 to trained knowledge, linguistics, and spellcraft checks, any other check he gets from a talent, and any skill or ability check several times a day. He's also int based and has trapfinding. It's going to be a long time before +half level beats 6 higher int and inspiration.

Not having +1 BAB at first level is not a merit of the monk//inquisitor, it's a flaw. You'll get delayed access to deadly aim, clustered shots, and possibly snap shot which a martial can qualify for 3 levels before the zen archer gets the equivalent ability. A zen archer also cannot get improved snap shot without wasting a feat on a redundant snap shot.

Investigator//Fighter is definitely the skilliest option on the menu, and no slouch in combat. However I wouldn't worry too much about the Zen Archer's access to Clustered Shots or Improved Snap Shot. The ZAM alone is still at least as good as the archer fighter and Gestalt with Inquisitor not only adds damage from Judgment and Bane but gives you more options to get through DR.

Atarlost wrote:
Intimidate and sense motive are almost certainly redundant with the soracle. You don't make a 4+int full charisma caster and not go for face skills.

You don't always take all the face skills, though. If I recall correctly, the Bard//Sorc in our current gestalt campaign has got Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise, but not Intimidate, and the Cavalier//Oracle does have Intimidate and Diplomacy, but doesn't have Sense Motive - which is after all a Wis-based skill and thus one which doesn't benefit from the character's high Cha.

Shadow Lodge

BretI wrote:
Would a Magic Circle vs Chaos (assuming your character is chaotic, otherwise substitute the appropriate alignment) focused inward protect people? It wasn't originally designed that way, but it does block mental control.

Doesn't block confusion because the originator of the effect doesn't actually control the target's actions. (FAQ)

Shadow Lodge

Eldritch Archer//Ranger gets 6+Int skills, which with Int 16 gives you 9 ranks per level. That's a significant advantage over the Zen//quisitor's likely 6.

Monster Lore is pretty good, and Improved Monster Lore is a nice bonus, but it doesn't help non-monster related Knowledge checks or Spellcraft, both of which might be important.

Investigator//Fighter does sound like a pretty solid choice if you're concerned about skills and especially Int-based skills. Weapon training, lots of feats, perfect saves, 6+Int skill ranks, lots of extra utility and solid buffing. It's definitely lighter on control options than EA//Ranger, though, on top of Ranged Study's short range.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The sorcerer/oracle is full arcane caster as well as a full divine caster, but since both are spontaneous casters it is hard to tell what type of spells he will have. While the druid is a full prepared divine caster his spell list is a little light on what most people think of when they talk about divine casters. They do have a surprising number of direct attack spells and battle field control spells. Overall between these two characters they pretty well have most of the magic covered so the party is not really lacking in anything as far as spells go.

They certainly have the potential to cover all the party's magical needs, but the OP indicated that both characters will be melee-focused. Maybe OP meant only that they were preferring melee over ranged and for example the Soracle is planning on mostly casting but with a longspear in hand to take a poke now and then. If so, great, and the OP doesn't need to worry so much about arm/anvil/hammer balance. However, when I hear "melee + caster" I'm thinking of a build that mostly self-buffs with maybe a little group buffing and spell saves too low to land decent debuffs.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Don’t count on the druid/monk having a really high perception and survival. He will probably have some point invested in these skills, but he has a lot of other skills he will want. He is going to want some points into acrobatic, climb, fly and swim to take advantage of changing into creatures with other forms of movement. He will also want points into knowledge nature, perception stealth and survival. If he has an animal companion he is also going to need handle animal. And as a spell caster he is going to want at least a few points into spellcraft. That makes about 9 to 10 skills which is going to mean he is spread pretty thin.

Turning into creatures with climb or swim speeds is how you avoid investing more than a rank into Climb or Swim. Wild Shape also gives you pretty hefty bonuses to Fly and Stealth with relevant forms (a medium air elemental gets +10 to Fly; a bat gets +13 to Fly and +15 to Stealth). You certainly can't count on the druid having max ranks in Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival but she hasn't got as much competition for those skill points as you suggest.

And while we're speculating about the rest of the party's builds, consider that the Soracle may be a Loracle (the Cha to AC revelation is nice for that combination), in which case they can help with the knowledge skills.

Shadow Lodge

Claxon wrote:
As to when the NPC loses their power? Does it matter? Are the PCs going to be there for his descent? Because if they are they should probably notice whats going and warn him.

If the party is supposed to notice what's going on and warn the paladin before he falls, then it's important to establish what questionable acts might serve as a warning sign without causing a fall.

Claxon wrote:
Paladins aren't necessarily particularly wise or intelligent, but they do have a sense of absolute good and order that fuels them magically. So they should have a very solid idea of what constitutes evil for the purpose of when they should fall.

Many GMs do give players this kind of feedback (which I think is a good thing) but if the paladin's sense of right and wrong was so accurate then the Phylactery of Faithfulness wouldn't exist.

Claxon wrote:
Your paladin only sounds plausible if it was a person already experiencing a crisis of faith, and thereby made them more susceptible to manipulation.

Well yeah, targeting people in moments of weakness is the primary strategy for sinister cults pretty much everywhere.

Shadow Lodge

To be fair, paladins are MAD and tend not to have the best Int scores. Even if they do put one of their likely two skill points into Knowledge(Religion), a low level paladin doesn't have a great shot at making the DC 20 check to "recognize an obscure deity's symbol or clergy."

Shadow Lodge

I love Snake Style, but the Zenquisitor has enough goodies chewing up its swift/immediate actions.

Shadow Lodge

Synthesist//Ranger? Not bad, but not as good as the similar Eldritch Archer//Ranger build. And while Zen//quisitor is one of the best archer gestalts there is in terms of firepower, I think this particular group needs the magus' magical flexibility more than it needs maximized damage.

For the Divine Marksman/Eldritch Archer you'll want stats looking like:

Str 13, Dex 16+2=18, Con 12, Int 14+2=16, Wis 10, Cha 8-2=6

This assumes a standard tiefling. You'll want to bump up Str at level 4 and then prioritize Int and Dex. Keeping control & debuffing in mind, a rough progression might be:

1 - Point Blank Shot, Bullseye Shot (Divine Marksman Bonus)
2 - Precise Shot (Ranger Bonus)
3 - Rapid Shot, Arcana (Arcane Accuracy?)
5 - Spell Focus (Conjuration), Rime Spell (Magus Bonus)
6 - Manyshot (Ranger Bonus), Arcana (Empowered Magic?)
7 - Intensify Spell
9 - Clustered Shots*, Arcana (Reach Spellstrike?)
10 - Improved Precise Shot (Ranger Bonus)
11 - Feat, Dazing Spell (Magus Bonus), Pinpoint Targeting (Divine Marksman bonus)
12 - Arcana (Spell Blending?)
13 - Feat
14 - Ranger Bonus
15 - Spell Perfection, Arcana (Quickened Magic)

The idea here is to make sure to grab core archery feats while also finding room for feats that improve the debuff potential of your spells. For example, Rime Snowball entangles a foe and can stagger it if they fail a Fort save (enhanced by Spell Focus). Spell Focus also helps out with some other solid Conjuration control spells like Glitterdust or Stinking Cloud.

*I'd take this early for a normal Ranger, but with the ability to enhance your weapon the Magus//Ranger is much more able to obtain the necessary enhancement bonus to bypass DR. See how much DR is getting in your way and delay or skip this feat accordingly.

Consider filling in feat gaps with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Initiative, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Extra Arcana, or Point Blank Master (requires Weapon Focus or Specialization depending on whether you're taking it as a ranger bonus or using Fighter Training).

If you do go for Zenquisitor you'll want Asura-spawn, Oni-Spawn, or Qlippoth-spawn for +2 Wis and Dex or Str. Stats would look something like (Qlippoth-spawn example):

Str 13+2=15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12-2=10, Wis 16+2=18, Cha 7

Feat selections are a lot more flexible here because after Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (level 1 bonus), you've got the basics covered. Flurry replaces Rapid Shot and Manyshot and you get other goodies like Weapon Focus/Specialization and Point Blank Master automatically. Just pick up Improved Precise Shot as your 6th level bonus feat and Clustered Shots as soon as you qualify and you can do anything you want.

Shadow Lodge

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Daw wrote:

You knew it was coming for 13 whole levels, and now it is a problem.

Sounds like poor planning to me.

You should not have to plan ahead to avoid 13th level in a base class.

Shadow Lodge

Anger Nogar wrote:
I would go Str. based, focus on getting a lot of additional natural attacks and VMC Order of the Flame cavalier with extra challenge for sweet bonus damage to all your natural attacks and not worry about the -4 Str that will be negated by the dragon disciple bonus and wont cost you weapon finesse and agile enchantment.

With the Dex bonus, it's a 6 point difference between Str and Dex, assuming equal pre-starting stats. +3 to attack and damage is definitely worth the cost of a feat and a +1 equivalent weapon enhancement. A Strength build would get only +2 to attack, +1 to damage, and a bit better DR bypassing ability from investing in Weapon Focus and an extra +1 on the weapon.

It's also worth noting that since the character is starting around level 7 they can easily start with both the feat and the Agile Amulet.

However for a Dex build I would suggest sticking with Urban Bloodrager instead of taking Dragon Disciple. Bloodrager//DD is already not as powerful as it looks at first glance; the stat adjustments are similar to those you get from the more powerful versions of Bloodrage and the DD also loses some BAB and the ability to self-buff as a free action when entering bloodrage. Aside from the unusually effective bite attack at level 2, you're mostly trading peak effectiveness while raging for more reliability outside of rage - and a high level bloodrager should be raging most of the time. For a Dex build that would be essentially wasting the Strength bonus (and doesn't get as much kick from the 1.5 x Str on the bite), the Dex increase from Greater and Mighty Controlled Bloodrage is a much better deal.

EDIT: Though the bite's 1.5xStr does give you a more favourable Power Attack damage bonus, the +2 Str from DD2 helps you qualify for Power Attack in the first place at level 7 (good for a natural weapons build even without the bite boost), and you'd get +1 Natural Armour (plus another point if you'd otherwise be trading your racial armour for Dragonmaw). I'm still not sure the 2-level dip is a great idea, but it seems a lot better than going all the way into DD.

Compared to an Urban Bloodrager 20, an Urban Bloodrager 10/DD 10 gains:
Str +4 Con +2 Int +2
+2 Will save
+10 HP (average)
Natural armour +3 (on top of the bloodline)
Bite attack d4+d6 energy + 1 1/2 Str
+30ft to your fly speed
+1 use/day breath weapon
Form of the dragon II 2/day (outside bloodraging - you already get it bloodraging)

Dragon Disciple gives up:
Greater and Mighty Bloodrage: +4 Dex while bloodraging, ability to self-buff as a free action when entering bloodrage.
+4 Will vs Enchantment while bloodraging
3 points BAB
3 levels spellcasting progression
3 additional spells known from bard/magus list
20 rounds of rage (almost half your rounds)
Tireless bloodrage

Claxon wrote:
Also, as an FYI Tail attachments work as manufactured weapon instead of natural attacks. So they're not primary or secondary.

True, but primary Bite/Claw/Claw and secondary Tail is a better routine than manufactured tail attachment and secondary bite/claw/claw, even before you add in the expense of enhancing both a weapon and an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Shadow Lodge

Yes, this isn't a fair thing for a GM to spring on an unsuspecting player, but would be an interesting story if the player is in on it or for an NPC. As a player, I would particularly enjoy being able to play the role of the agent of good exposing Ruzel's nature to the misled paladin.

Shadow Lodge

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Not everyone is playing in the Mana Wastes, or near the Mana Wastes, or in a setting that has Mana Wastes.

Being unable to take a character into town without causing death and riots is absolutely more broken than having a debuff on the high end of the power scale.

Especially since this is the kind of thing that's not immediately obvious on making the character. The Blight Druid is obviously a little unpleasant, and you can tell by reading the entry exactly how much damage its Miasma is going to cause. Confusion doesn't sound that bad until you crunch numbers like folks did on this thread.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
You didn't have to take the 13th level of this class and can certainly retrain it to something more NPC friendly.

This is true, but not being able to take 13th level in a class - especially a full casting class - because of a basic character building choice you made at level 1? Imagine if the Necromancy school power for wizards came with a 30ft life-draining aura that you couldn't turn off.

Shadow Lodge

A paladin does not get their powers from their deity, they get their powers directly from Law and Good. So being unable to grant paladin powers wouldn't necessarily stop a deceitful evil deity from recruiting paladin followers.

That said, it's a pretty tricky con to pull. Even if the paladin doesn't hit any of his religious fellows with Detect Evil (say he has the Oath Against Chaos) and doesn't notice any evil behavior in his associates, and even if the paladin isn't already affiliated with a church that would prevent their falling in with an Infernal Duke, other agents of good are probably going to show up at some point and object. There's some extended chat about whether it's impossible or just unlikely in the previously linked thread.

And in any case, as soon as the paladin willingly commits an evil act they fall. There's quite a bit of debate on whether being deceived about the nature of the act interferes with the act being performed "willingly." For example, if an innocent has Infernal Healing and Dominate cast on them and is forced to attack a paladin, is the paladin at fault for killing someone who is attacking him and also has an evil aura? I tend to use a "due diligence" standard where a paladin falls for committing an act he knows is evil or should know is evil. For example, they would fall for executing a person who is not an immediate threat without convincing proof that that person has committed severe crimes, because they should know that it is evil to kill someone without such justification.

Shadow Lodge

Grindstone wrote:
I completely agree, sense motive made zero sense to me. He said it's to find the CR (even when I specified "not how overall strong he is, but how much he is bleeding") and that enemies are basically always trying to conceal how injured they are, even when they're not trying to conceal how injured they are. Including animals (which is what this started with).

This is actually partially true. Some animals instinctively hide any weakness from potential predators. People who work with lab mice get special training to interpret signs of distress in the animals.

Sense Motive is also good for getting a general hunch about someone's mental state, even if they're not actively deceiving you, so it should be possible to get a sense of how much pain someone is in using that skill. However, I'd only use it for humanoids, or some non-humanoids at a penalty for unfamiliar body language. More generally I'd use Heal, or the appropriate Knowledge check for the creature type. Usually I give players a choice of skill in cases like this where several might be applicable.

Also, my groups' GMs tend to give you at least "bloodied" automatically, and will usually also be descriptive enough that you can tell when the enemy is almost unconscious.

Shadow Lodge

My take is that all feats labelled "Style" require you to activate that style to receive the benefits, whether they say you need to do so or not, because the default rules apply.

The exception is if a feat says "When using this style" halfway through the feat. This implies that that specific feat has some benefits that apply without actively using the style and some that apply only when in the appropriate stance, since otherwise the phrase "when using this style" would appear before listing any benefits or else would be omitted.

Wouldn't trust this for PFS (I think this inference is more RAI than RAW) but seems fair & logical to me.

Shadow Lodge

I believe that limitation only applies to the Intimidate usage of the feat.

Shadow Lodge

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Another vote for cohort, with the PC learning to speak Vegepygmy being very advisable.

Though there's no real reason the Thorny couldn't also learn to understand Common. One could even just buy it a flawed Gold Nodule ioun stone keyed to Common for 1000gp.

Shadow Lodge

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Animal resists your spell as normal. If affected, you then use an opposed charisma check to determine which orders the animal obeys.

Multiple Mental Control Effects

Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells that remove the subject's ability to act. Mental controls that don't remove the recipient's ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Shadow Lodge

The ice queen doesn't sound too campaign specific - it's a pretty iconic concept.

That said I can see why it would be difficult to recycle for your own players without them remembering the previous ice queen BBEG.

I might steal it for my game, though. :)

Shadow Lodge

I was beginning to suspect that, but I was thrown off by your statement that you "completely disagreed."

Because when I'm saying:
"These two archetypes are more casters than they are martial - if you want to be a frontliner go for Paladin instead of Feyspeaker."

Complete disagreement is more:
"Magical Child//Feyspeaker character absolutely could be as good a frontliner as the Magical Child//Paladin."

"Don't write off this character's martial potential just because casting is its biggest strength."

Charon Onozuka wrote:
Magical Child/Paladin: Full BAB, d10 hit die, and +CHA to saves is probably the best option for stats, not to mention the healing. My biggest concerns are alignment restriction (limiting vigilante’s dual alignment) and wasting medium/heavy armor proficiency (as Magical Child spells are arcane and take spell failure above Light Armor). Especially since that without better armor options, being on the frontlines will probably be more dangerous.

I just remembered this, but your medium armour proficiency isn't entirely wasted since it means that as soon as you can afford it you can wear a mithral breastplate without penalty (it counts as light armour for purposes of class limitations including spell failure).

Shadow Lodge

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It's not just low Dex. The sapling's starting Nat AC is lower than the carnivorous flower and crawling vine. It's tied for best Nat AC with the vine after the 4th level advancement, but it's weird that the natural AC bonus isn't the highest by at least 1 or 2 points for the entire advancement.

And while we're talking about the treant, why the heck does it have not just a climb speed, but a better climb speed than the vine?

Shadow Lodge

I feel you. My players talked their way through 2/3rds of a dungeon once, by convincing the minions that were supposed to be harassing the party through murder holes and such that it was important they see the person in charge...

Save the encounter, you might be able to tweak and re-use it someday.

Shadow Lodge

Deighton Thrane wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

I think it's about how you develop your character concept and how much control over that concept you like to have.

If you enjoy using random elements to get your creative juices flowing, and aren't set on any particular kind of character, rolling stats in order is great!

However if you start a game with even a basic concept already drawn up, rolling stats in order can be a pain...

Except that you can still use random elements with point buys, like rolling d6s to determine your primary stat, possibly your secondary and tertiary stats, even a dump stat, then build a character accordingly. You can even randomly roll a die to see what stat array you might use. So someone can still randomly make a character in point buy, but someone who knows what they want to make has no choice but to abide by the dice with roll 3d6. Meaning that both players can get what they want with one option, but only one players gets what they want with the other.

Sure, you can find ways to introduce optional randomness into character creation. But then you're really just accounting for the fact that some players really want to roll their stats in order and others really want point buy.

Shadow Lodge

The Mortonator wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
It won't be a Gestalt level front liner

And that's the problem.

Yes, getting 3/4 BAB and vigilante abilities make up the combat difference between a Feyspeaker and a normal druid. But in a gestalt campaign you're not balancing against a single-classed character, you're balancing against other gestalt frontliners.

By typical martial/caster I was not comparing it to a Druid. I was thinking like the classic Fighter/Wizard where your other half is a more caster focused caster. On the martial side, this is basically a Vigilante that gives specialization for buffing. They have the amazing defenses and offensives of illusion school, well above average talents, and a slightly nerfed Wild Shape.

Fighter//Wizard may be "classic" but it's frankly a bad gestalt in terms of power. The wizard defenses are less fantastic when you realize that you're also unarmoured without a passive AC boost, few of your offensive abilities are synergistic, and your action economy is poor.

On the martial side, the Magical Child//Feyspeaker runs like a druid that has 2 levels delay in Wild Shape and gets 5 Vigilante Talents - which are nice but not super amazing, maybe worth 2 feats each - and a strong opening move in the appearance feature. And yes, you can grab Mirror Image as a level 3rd spell or just cast Blur or Displacement as a Magical Child for a little extra defense. But if you are comparing yourself to any half-decent actually martial gestalt in the party you will be disappointed by your damage output. Seriously, I'm playing an Unchained Monk//Alchemist (full BAB, flurry, Mutagen, Enlarge Person) and am still having trouble dealing as much damage as the party Cavalier//Oracle, not to mention the Barbarian//Ranger and Samurai//Rogue.

The offensive illusion spells - plus the buckets of offensive conjuration and transmutation spells from the combined lists - are a reason to play primarily as a caster, not as a martial.

Which is again not to say you have to give up on martial stuff entirely. This character has martial weapon proficiency and a 25 point buy and could easily get a post-racial 18 in Cha for 10 points plus a post-racial 17, 14, 13 in physical stats for a respectable secondary martial role, probably Dex-based with Lethal Grace or a reach build.

The Mortonator wrote:
Compared to a Magical Child/normal Druid it's not giving up much for a lot of returns.

Yes, that's exactly why I recommended it in the first place. But as a primary caster and at-best secondary martial damage dealer.

Shadow Lodge

Inquisitor does get some pretty nice combat abilities for the Brawler - bane is great with Brawler's flurry - and I love the utility.

But if you're the only healer then the party will really appreciate a cleric. I tried to be the party healer as an Inquisitor (our primary healer dropped out of the game) and trying to fill that role was frustrating.

I don't think you necessarily need access to all condition removal spells as soon as they're available but you don't want to be struggling to deal with poison at level 10.

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