Booty, Loot, Party Treasure...
How many groups split party treasure equally, making sure the correct PC gets a particular item (The Rogue needs a higher AC --not my Sorcerer; give him the Ring of Prot.; ...the Barbarian needs better Saves; give her the Cloak instead of the Fighter...) And, even moreso, each PC pays an equal share for the Cleric's Happy Stick and other treasure that's, you know, for the party -- letting the Cleric use all his money on upgrading his heavy mace or whatever.?
I'm just curious. I haven't been B since elementary school in the early 80s (and everyone else was, too) and honestly, I haven't played in a group (at least, more than 1 session) like that since probably '86-'87. But I sure have seen it at LGSs -- and I'm curious how many impotents there are in gaming still.
In addition to Dagon's D&D history (for the care of us Grognards), Skum are also 1E: the 1981 Fiend Folio, as I remember. That predates Dagon's entry into D&D in, what, '83/ '84?
That being said, Skum as a monster race are not exactly a sacred cow the way monsters such as drow, Tiamat (who would make a great "Mother Hydra" if she weren't such a SACRED COW), or Demogorgon.
So Paizo could get away with a Skum "revisit" without us Grognards spewing vitriol all over the Messageboards.
(Still can't believe our heads didn't explode when they made drow blue, ...blue?!, and had them spontaneously transform from other elves. Blech.)
Astral Wanderer wrote:
Intelligence and tactics are not defined by alignment
Lawful = usually smart / Chaotic = always stupid.
Any of (the Pit Fiend's) minions he could send that could do the job would also be able to use his name once the mortal was a bloody smear. And he CERTAINLY doesn't want to tell his superiors
The pit fiend would be ill-advised to come kick his @$$, because he'll still remember its true name.
Note: It's a LE Pit Fiend, not a Stupid Evil Balor. Thus, unlike a Demon, the Pit Fiend won't personally confront the mortal PC; it will delegate the task to a Cornugon and a handful of Erinyes. Which, by-the-by, is a nice little subplot for the Campaign. ...Nice because, instead of monsters getting tougher-and-tougher the lower (further) in the "dungeon" you go, the Devils coming after you are getting tougher and tougher -- until you're dead (or cool enough to take the Pit Fiend and his last few underlings out in combat). But probably dead.
Anyway -- go back and look at third post in this Thread, an obvious yet brilliant post from LazarX.
(But I'd still probably sell!)
I have no problem with the Draw....
Please everyone shuttup about dropping the ball during the draw; there's no conspiracy, just a really old (legendary) dude who sadly can't keep his geriatric hand from shaking when he's wiping his bum, let alone holding the ping-pong ball firmly without dropping it -- IT WAS NOTHING....
But I still have no problem with the Draw. FIFA HAS to make ratings (though transparency & consistency is NEEDED) and by some stupid fluke Switzerland is ridiculously & inaccurately placed and France deserves to be placed where they were based on their play. It's actually meet that they ended up in the same Group (COINCIDENTALLY) because France (on paper) is absolutely a Top 8 team while Switzerland is absolutely Not.
POST YOUR PREDICTIONS (Or You're Not a Real Person)
Round of 16 (If the Tourney Started in December ....subject to change over the next few months -- injuries, hot-streak players,-- but...):
2 Nederlands will BEAT #1 Brasil in Round of 16! ...(You heard it here first.)
1 Spain will BEAT #2 Mexico....
1 Columbia will LOSE to #2 England. (And then ENG upsets Italy in Quarters!)...
1 Italy will BEAT #2 Greece. (And surprisingly lose in the Quarters to ENG!)...
1 France will BEAT #2 Bos&Herz. (It may be Nigeria that lose to France but I'm still seeing heavy Europe this World Cup.)...
1 Argentina will BEAT #2 Switzerland....
1 Germany will BEAT #2 Russia....
1 Belgium will BEAT #2 United States. (Sorry Cristiano!!!!)...
....Sincere apologies to Chile and Uruguay. (I'm not really sorry for Cristiano!)
Spain will BEAT Nederlands;...
(If you happen to see my reddit post you'll note that there I predicted Nigeria 2nd in the Group over Bos&Herz; I'm struggling w/ that one & here I've got Boz&Herz earning 2nd.)
In Dungeon 59 there is an adventure by Chris Perkins called "Seeking Bloodsilver" which may really help here.
The PCs (and groups of NPCs) are searching for an awesome artifact (like in your Sothis campaign) but instead of being in the dungeon (or pyramid or whatever), it's actually in the Shadow Plane version of that dungeon.
So if you like,... Your PCs could be in the pyramid (or wherever) looking for that artifact, only to learn that it is in the Shadow Plane version of the pyramid, (or perhaps a demi-plane only accessible from the pyramid, ala Isle of the Ape from Castle Greyhawk by Gygax), making the intro to your campaign essentually two dungeon crawls, the first in a dungeon in Sothis and the second in a dungeon in "Shadow" Sothis.
When can we assume in game?
I think it depends on the group and the level of the characters.
Low Level characters should be played with fewer assumptions but at higher levels we can assume they do or don't do certain things.
Also, many groups' style allows for character knowledge that exceeds Player knowledge so my Cleric PC, for example, would know the appropriate protocols of behavior and etiquette at the Temple even if I don't. Maybe at 1st or 2nd level the DM should require a small Knowledge: Religion check but certainly not after a few levels.
Tucker's Kobolds The greatest low-level monster to throw at your PCs even when they're higher level because the little nasties (created by the eponymous DM) were played correctly, hiding in impossible-to-reach places, setting traps, using terrain, etc.
Angry Mothers From Heck People, including other gamers (see the talented John Simcoe) who attack, with varying vehemence, gaming that appears to take a turn to the diabolic or mature-audiences-only arena: magazine covers with scantily clad vixens or devils, adventures inspired by The Book of Vile Darkness, um, Monte Cook's Book of Vile Darkness, etc. The Angry Mothers from Heck are the ones who got D&D to take out "Devils" and "Demons" from 2E. And they're the ones who did things like sue TSR for facilitating crimes by inspiring kids to be evil.
Gazebo See "Funniest D&D story ever." (The DM says there's a gazebo on the hill; the Players don't know what a gazebo is.... "It's a gazebo." ... "What is it doing"? ... "It's a gazebo." ... "Should we roll initiative?" ... "It's a GAZEBO." ... "Arghhh, run away, run away.")
Devil LAWFUL Evil Outsider from Hell who HATES Demons. (Called "Baatezu" in the 90s cuz of Angry Mothers from Heck.)
Demon STUPID Evil Outsider from The Abyss who HATES Devils. (Called "Tanarri" in the 90s cuz of Angry Mothers from Heck.)
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Planescape is probably the best starting point for someone who wants a ready-to-use cosmology.
Agreed. (Except your adverb, "probably" -- it's "definitely."
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
But a lot of the details feel like round pegs forced into square holes.
Agreed. (But it's not as bad as some of the other stuff like that in 2E -- see "Ravenloft.")
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
I never thought I'd say this, but I'm with Sissyl on this.
That's funny because when I saw you disagree with my taste (on DiTerlizzi) I thought, "Man, how is it possible that Tequila Sunrise and I disagree; I've agreed with the almost all of his posts over the last 6 or 7 years."
Happy now? ;p
Tony was probably more "accurate" or "true" to what he was trying to create than the other 2E illustrators. His work is more, hmm-what, "real" than the high fantasy/ pulp of the others. I give him much credit for that. Very talented artist.
It's just a style thing, not my cup of tea; YMMV (especially if you're a wrongity-wrong-wrongest). But, you know, when you grow up with mostly Trampier and Sutherland and Parkinson, well, you grow up with tastes outside of DiTerlizzi. At least I did. (And I'm not a wrongity-wrong so neh.)
You have an excellent example of a taste that sucks, (Ray).
AND BRING BACK EROL OTUS AND THE DAVES, SUTHERLAND & TRAMPIER. And KIETH PARKINSON!!!!
Give Wayne Reynolds some more competition.
And all you wrongity-wrongy-wrongestes can go fly a kite.
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Sir Urza, it's a matter of taste.
While it's technically true that the ALL CONSUMING GREATNESS that is the Planescape development of The Great Wheel is a matter of taste, it's the only taste that counts. It's the only taste that's really good. All other flavors for cosmology suck in comparison.
Use the planescape to get started.
FOR YOUR EDIFICATION, EDUCATION AND ENJOYMENT:
Fluff All the “flavor,” atmosphere and background story for characters, NPCs, the setting, etc.; characterization, personality, tone. (Often called “ROLEplaying”)
Crunch All the rules and design mechanics of the actual game. (Often called “ROLLplaying”)
Broken When one PC is designed considerably stronger than all the others &/or has magical items &/or Boons that make it much stronger – or when some PCs in a group are broken and some are not. This can occur because elements of the rules are not intended to be used certain ways but can be, or if the element was just poorly designed by the publishers. (If all PCs are “equally Broken” a DM may consider the game Broken (PCs are stronger than monsters of appropriate CR) but the DM always has the prerogative to use stronger CR monsters, thus unbreaking the game.)
Powergamer A Player who builds a PC trying desperately to make it as powerful as possible. Used as a pejorative when pointing out unrealistic decisions, such as stupidly high STR & CON and stupidly low INT & CHA – basing a PC not on any type of Fluff but only with regard to Crunch.
Munchkin An extreme Powergamer who wants to be more powerful than all the other PCs and monsters (Breaking the game), so much so that he or she will also cheat during character creation & dice rolling and lie to the DM (and other Players) about rules adjudication. Munchkins will often get upset when their PCs do poorly, impeding game play.
Rules Lawyer A Player who does everything possible to play RAW, “Rules as Written,” correcting other Players and the DM immediately, whether it helps or hurts the PCs’ situation. Rules Lawyers may often give other Players AND the DM advice during combat based on RAW to make both PCs and monsters as optimized as possible. Used pejoratively when Rules Lawyering slows the game down to nothing for the minutia of a single, unimportant or obscure rule, ruining the fun and flow of the game.
Grognard A Player who has been playing since at least the 1980s in First Edition and fondly recalls and recounts memories from this past. Used as a pejorative when making fun of older people or when older gamers opine 1E as better than the current game design. (Some may consider Players who started in the 90’s w/ 2nd Ed as potential Grognards – but as a Grognard myself, I cannot accept you as a fellow if you only started in the 90’s – which is a classic, textbook Grognaridan attitude.)
Railroading When a DM forces the Players down a single path or plot-line, not allowing them to choose to take different actions than the DM planned for (thus taking the game “off the rails”). Often this happens when a DM’s adventure is based on a favorite novel or movie – the DM having a strict idea on what Shall happen/ what the PCs Shall do.
Sandbox (Opposite of Railroading) When a DM has no set plot and only a setting, allowing PCs to choose whatever they want (go north or south, build a fort or pillage a village, etc.). Like a sandbox that a child enters and has the freedom to “play” whatever & however he wants, a Sandbox Campaign allows the Players nearly complete freedom to choose what they do, without any expectations.
Turtling When a DM presents several encounters to the PCs that they cannot hope to defeat and thus the Players become afraid of everything the DM presents them – like turtles in their shells, PCs mistrust every encounter and gameplay stalls.
Metagame When any Player (DM or Player) uses out-of-gamestory reasoning to make a decision. These infinite possibilities include a Player positing that the collapsing-ceiling trap must have a solution because “The DM would not put it in the dungeon without a solution, or, we can't go down those stairs yet because the monsters in the lower levels will be stronger than those on the first” Thus using “Metagame” reasoning to make a decision.
Gish Any PC who is equal parts melee combatant and spell caster. In Pathfinder the Magus is the textbook Gish; Eldritch Knight and some other Class builds are Gish as well. “Gish” was coined in 1981 when the Fiend Folio introduced a monster called Githyanki whose society had a class that were equal Fighter-Magic Users; those Githyanki were called “Gish.”
Campaign A long series of thematically related adventures.
Adventure A single plot or scenario for the PCs.
Module The 1st Ed. name for short adventures that Paizo (because they're Grognards) initially used for the single adventures line of products (as opposed to "Adventure Path" which is their line of Campaigns).
Make sure thats legal in your state...
Hey Baby, that's legal in every state!
Oh, my bad -- I thought Druma was uber-rich, everyone wealthy / nobody poor (at least, Diamond Lake-poor).
But I've never really gotten into Druma, don't think I've even read the whole article in the Inner Sea Guide. And I may be remembering how incredibly poor Diamond Lake is in "MY" AoO campaign from, jesus -- 10 years ago -- perhaps not as desperately poor as it may actually be in print.
EDIT: I remember reading a few paragraphs about Druma and thinking, "So, it's Paizo's version of Sembia from FR -- just, with religion."
In fact, for me Molthune has already conquered it (and Nirmathis), Blitzkrieg style, and the few Drumans not yet exterminated are in Molthune Concentration Camps.
I think that when you take one of the Greyhawk classics to put in Pathfinder you gotta think about where you'd put many of the others first -- look at them collectively -- then see what's best.
Age of Worms would have to be near something like Greyhawk, for example, and pretty close to Scourge of the Slavelords (The Pomarj). But far from wherever you put Tsojcanth and G-D-Q.
Otherwise, a year down the road you end up kicking yourself when you try to put Tamoachan in the Mwangi (perfect fit, yes?) but realize that you've already made the Mwangi Hepmonaland!
. . . .
ToEE (and Return to ToEE) are great for far eastern Taldor, nice and rugged, out-of-the-way area for Hommlet & Nulb & Verbobonc.
I've put Against the Cult of the Reptile God in Varisia, a bit north of Wartle, that area, but nearer the Churlwood than the Sanos.
Tsojcanth I'd put in the northern tip of the Mindspin Mountains, on the Belkzen side, not the Nirmathan side.
Saltmarsh I'd put on the south Taldor coast (but far enough from Qadira to not be a problem).
G-D-Q seems right for just west of the World's Edge Mountains of eastern Taldor, though LOTS of folks will want it in northern Andoran. Just make sure it's not too close to ToEE -- maybe put ToEE in the NE mountainous region of Andoran if the World's Edge Mts aren't big enough for both GDQ and ToEE in your mind.
Here's a surprise: Ravenloft in Nidal, in the northeastern Uskwood -- NOT Ustalov. Ustalov is just too pulp, too "high fantasy" to be the terrifying, low fantasy I6.
Tamoachan in the Sodden Lands, leading into the Mwangi.
I ran "Ghost Tower of Inverness" in the Spire of Nex.
"Dwellers of the Forbidden City" in southwestern Mwangi, on the Sargava side but remote from the Chelaxian colony.
I think you have to save Cheliax for the Kingdom of Ahlissa. (Which fits nicely since north of Ahlissa is the Pale -- not too unlike the darkly religious Nidal, and south of Ahlissa is Tilvanot which holds The Scarlet Brotherhood, AKA, plagiarized Red Mantis & Mediogalti.
A1-A4 is tricky but I'd go somewhere between Brevoy and The River Kingdoms. That's "Pomarj-enough."
So... in my mind that leaves Age of Worms for Taldor just north & east of the Verduran Forest. At least -- that's where Diamond Lake and the Cairn Hills could be. The Free City would be south, probably Cassomir.
Through the portal to Greyhawk.
Plus 1.Probably plus 2.
. . . .
is actually a "Greenland-like" named village: it's the opposite of what it sounds: it's poor, morose, closed-economy, hopeless, etc. There are no diamonds and the lake is as polluted as The Styes.
They simplified the outer planes. Each Alignment has it's own plane and that's it.
.Not to get off topic (the Thread's OP is passed its lifespan anyway) but,... just out of curiosity, was the "complexity"(?) of The Great Wheel an actual problem?
I always thought it was a great idea: each Alignment gets a Plane and inbetween each of those nine is a "middle" Plane. 17 Planes seemed great to me in that regard. And I've never really heard anyone bothered by it, but you know, that's what the Boards are for: broaden your mind.
I think I like the Fate-Chip better than the Hero Point.
Only trouble I see is not losing the poker chip between now and the next session! Maybe that's why a Hero Point (easily written in pencil on your sheet) is more popular. (Plus, I've known a Player or two over the years who may bring an extra poker chip or two and swear they earned them weeks ago and I must've just forgotten!)
The cliche examples are adding music in the background or speaking in-voice, using handouts or props -- but I came up with a new one a few weeks ago that I absolutely love and would like to share.
We all laugh maniacally when we drop a PC but we never seem to even congratulate a Player when he or she drops our BBEG (because they're suppose to win, certainly, but still...)
Inspired by a reverse of the classic grognardian trick of collecting the character sheet from the Player (as a trophy) when you kill a PC, I decided to hand over the stat-block for the creative and unusual BBEGs to whichever Player gets the final shot. Let the Player have a trophy!
Community Use Gimmicks / Tricks to Enhance our games....
1) Background Music
2) Speaking in-voice / with varying accents
3) Placing a Skull-n-Crossbones sticker on your DM screen every time you kill a PC
4) Hand over the BBEG or tough-fight stat block to the Player who made the kill (as trophies)
5) Collect the character sheet of the PCs you kill (as trophies)
6) Make a xerox copy of (important) NPC illustrations with plenty of blank space -- to use as a handout -- so Players can write notes (about the NPC) on that handout and keep it for reference.
I don't know who thought it would be cool to include this poorly named monster to the Shattered Star Adventure Path or what designer tried to justify it by saying it is from Leng and is a Lovecraft special.
Butt really, not to sound like a butt-hole or anything, but the B-Hole in Pathfinder is stupid:
DM: Alright guys, you see a B-Hole coming out of the giant rift of peril; roll initiative.
Player: That's the monster from the Great Beyond right -- the place in the Golarion solar system like Uranus?!!
1} Bob Dylan
Captain Emberwrath wrote:
I haven't really seen the Android PC race much except in passing and I'm not entirely sure what to think to be honest.
Just so I'm clear -- I'm not suggesting the Fluff for the Android is relevant to what you're doing (and doing well, to boot); I'm suggesting that, hey, since Paizo has an official construct race for use as a PC, why not take a look at the Crunch build, the design thought behind it, just for a baseline comparison.
Demogorgon ... would have to be changed to something new or something already depicted in the real-life folklore.
The reason Paizo won't do much for Demogorgon (or Tiamat, etc.) is because they would not merely alienate the majority of their customers (and probably 99% of their original customer base) but they would actually piss us off. Royally! Not just that they like the original themselves.
Whatever some monk with an overactive imagination said 1700 years ago about Demogorgon (which was actually nothing at all beyond a scary name) -- for us he's the two-mandrill-headed, cephalapod-armed, monster with split personalities, Aameul and Hethradiah. That's a sacred cow -- what we hate WotC for ruining.
We would burn Paizo down if they ever changed Demogorgon. Same with Tiamat.
EDIT: I'd like to see more easter-eggs, the kind Orthos and Kthulhu mention earlier. We can have an occassional cultist of Demogorgon or Tiamat show up without going into the actual Divinity's background. We already have the background -- it's just that WotC owns it.
But we sure as heck can't change it!
You may also want to take a look at the design for the Android Race in Paizo's Inner Sea Bestiary. It's a PC Race (from Numeria) that's pretty well designed for use by Players.
I think it's +2 INT & DEX w/ -2 CON. I remember it has a -4 to Sense Motive.
Anyway, it's a good like-for-like comparison for a construct-PC Race.
And I would absolutely NOT change the name. Not only is it the real name, but also "Fetchling" is dumb and incorrect anyway (They're "Shades.").
If you can get past the Metagame caveats (listed earlier) then this could be really cool.
The Devil could be a recurring NPC that's certainly not the party Patron but kinda is sorta like one -- that's potentially great.
Or the Devil could just become a banal MacGuffin every time you need the PCs to go to Point B or something in the campaign.
Or even, if the other PCs don't want to be saddled with it, you could treat it as a Pathfinder Society Faction Mission from time to time: the PCs have to save the princess from the tower and this PC has to ALSO get a lock of her hair or somesuch thing (And the dumber you make them the more like PFS it becomes.).
But what could be really cool is if the Devil comes back after the deal is done to try to make MORE deals! And with all the PCs. Kinda like a beggar who, once you give him a dollar he hollars at you the next time you see him, and the next time, and the next.... "Hey kid, just try it; this one's free..."
I love to use a recurring Devil NPC who offers the PCs a deal that not only sounds good but actually IS good, no strings attached. Then, each time he comes back the PCs become less and less skeptical and suspicious -- less and less careful about the wording of each deal. (Cuz they're always REALLY careful the first deal.)
Devil at first: All you gotta do is kill that Demon -- you like killing CE Demons as much as I; it's a "win-win."
Devil's second deal: This guy is a NE Cultist who's up to some bad stuff; taking him out is good for you, too.
Devil's third: Sure, I'll give you each a 24 hour +4 bump to the Ability Score of your choice, just deliver this letter to the Priest of Iomedae -- there's no magic or anything evil about it -- no harm will come from it -- I just can't enter the church. (All true.)
Devil's fourth: I heard that the cleric of Sarenrae is revoking her vows, turning to Lamashtu (true -- he "heard" it); kill her for us and I'll give you...
And each time the Devil returns, the deals -- all temporary and innocuous, become slowly more pernicious -- all the while the Players get more and more comfortable -- and trusting -- of the Devil and their ability to always get a good deal!
He has a 20 Watt light-bulb in his belly that is vulnerable to non-magical kicks from a couple folks suffering their mid-life-crises.
If John Ritter can turn the spider (Large sized at best) over on his side without even provoking an AoO, and then kick it to death, I don't think I'd call it a Demon Lord.
But you're absolutely right; Pennywise IS more than a clown with illusion magic.
I really like the Fluff, great job.
You mentioned earlier that the "Fetch" is from real world myth -- can you give more details?
- - - -
BTW, regarding the name "Fetch" being similar to Fetchling, no biggie, there's still a good number of Gamers who won't say "Fetchling" but rather "Shade" since that's what they were called in 1E (the 1980 Fiend Folio).
I have to reiterate what a couple of others have asked, and I can't stress enough how important it is:
1) What do the other players think about their PCs running with a PC who made a deal with a devil?!!
2) Will this Spell Book unbalance the game / make his PC cooler than the others?!!
ONLY if those two potential disasters can be resolved should you consider it. Then, whatever you come up with to play it out, make sure you keep in mind those two questions and if the answers change based on what you and this Player develop.
YOU MUST THINK THROUGH THE METAGAME FIRST!
My players hate the iconics. "Who are these idiots that get in the way of the picture?!"
Your Players aren't the only ones!
I understand the position that D&D is about PCs fighting monsters so covers should feature PCs fighting monsters.
(Historically, I'm pretty sure TSR/WotC/Paizo took this stance of putting PCs on the covers, ruining the background, due to angry mothers from heck letters. I remember as recently as Dungeon 142 & 98 getting lots of angry letters (from mothers from heck) because of the cover illustrations.)
Lord Snow (and ArchPally),
From AP Vol#3 we get our first primer on Varisia and it includes Ilsurian and the following info:
I guy named Ilsur, who lived in Korvosa and didn't like how devilishly close it was staying to Mother-Cheliax, left Korvosa to found Ilsurian. Thus Ilsurian is very anti-Korvosa as far as Chelaxian influence goes, and it's very LN.
All the info published outside of AP#3 (RotRL Guide, Inner Sea Guide, Varisia: Birthplace, etc.) just have a Copy/Paste from AP#3.
I'm pretty sure Ilsur left Korvosa before the Magnimarian exodus from Korvosa, thus making Ilsurian older than Magnimar (just a WHOLE LOT smaller).
Stephen King's It
I was thinking about Pennywise the Clown -- but we already have the Bogeyman.
And the unique Skinsaw Man and Carnival of Tears NPCs.
Plus the 3E Paeleryon Devil (who's more like The Violator from Spawn, but stil,...)
I think that for Pennywise (and Freddy and Chucky and Ludo & such), we've already got the monsters -- we just have to use them creatively. And you know Paizo can't make something too like Pennywise or Stephen King will get his lawyers to beat us up.
You want Pennywise, Paizo gives you the Bogeyman.
Ilsurian has been one of my favorite place-names since this campaign world was first published. Glad to see it finally get some published info to build on. (There is, afterall, no info whatsoever in "Murder's Mark" -- the word "Ilsurian" pretty much stands alone.)
I admit, my own map of Ilsurian has a special fondness for me; I've used it to kickstart a campaign and a couple small one-shot adventures over the years, But it's time to put it aside for the real deal.
I'll say this, though -- of all the possible geographic landmarks that I hollored and screamed about in my complaints about how Paizo is publishing the setting material, mountains in the background were the one thing I didn't consider for Ilsurian.
The NPC wrote:
Do you still hold to the belief that evil does not exist? Also, what about Godwin's Law?
Sure, why not?Ultimately the semantics don't matter in real life. Whether or not "evil" is a human creation that doesn't actually exist in the human condition or does, doesn't change the fact that "antisocial" and "depraved" (whatever "depraved" does or does not mean) do exist.
...Looks up Godwin's Law.
Meh, I don't think it matters. I first thought of the argument as an undergrad before I ever even had an email account. I wrote my paper in um, '00, '01?, before I had ever really been on the internet more than to check email.
For our culture any conversation that leads to someone making a comparison to something evil or bad will inevitably lead to Hitler -- I would argue since at least the 1950s. Thus I would argue that Godwin's Law is like making the astonishing statement that when talking about US presidents people will mention that Washington was pretty good. .... DUH!