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Ezren

Voadam's page

444 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Also a group of Vrocks all in plate mail is jarringly out of genre and aesthetically unappealing.


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Ravingdork wrote:

Over and over and over again I see players and GMs alike talking about how monsters are often weaker than classed characters. Supposedly this is because their options are more limited, whereas a classed character can be optimized with a plethora of items and options.

Why?

What is keeping the dragon from wearing armor, or the ogre from using a potion of enlarge person? Why aren't monsters using the same tricks and tactics that classed characters often use?

They have treasure values; why aren't the intelligent monsters making use of it? Why aren't they every bit as selective and discerning in their tools and tactics as the adventurers they so often fight?

How is it that such an imaginative and outgoing community fell into the mental rut of "monsters couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't do that."

Please. Answer me that.

Classed characters are generally created from scratch choosing every option as you build them. Their loot is often gear they use.

Monsters are generally in a monster book for ease of use. Grab their printed stat block and go. That is part of their value.

You can customize them and rebuild them according to the rules, but generally monsters are assumed to have a pile of treasure that does not add to their combat stats with maybe a few items listed in their gear section and already figured into their stats. That is so their stats can be used off the page and that is where their CR is pegged. Swap around gp for combat items and you change their combat stats, best to then double check their stats to the CR charts afterwards as CR could easily go up if you add +8 to AC from armor, a toughness feat to boost hp instead of a skill focus feat, and a magic weapon that increases attack bonus and damage.


Large dragon transformation battler is a little tough.

Barbarian with dragon totem gets you draconic transformation while raging with a little descriptive license, actual bite, claws, and at 10th you get wings with flight, I believe. UMD skill with a wand of enlarge person turns that dragon large.

Not sure off the top of my head about possible breath weapons.


Darkholme wrote:

Conan:

Conan is in a lower powered genre - he is badass within that genre, but he can't compete with D&D characters. That was my point there. People keep asking to be able to do Conan "A Fighter who can keep up without regular use of magic" with Pathfinder, but it just doesn't do low-magic fantasy (Sword and Sorcery, Dark Fantasy, Pulp Fantasy, etc). If that is the genre you want to play, you're in the wrong game, and should be looking at something designed to do that instead - Pathfinder is designed around abundant and high powered magic, gear-focused adventure fantasy - it's a good fit for itself/D&D3/4 settings, as well as Warcraft, High Magic Fantasy JRPGs, Forgotten Realms, and the like. 4e is equally high magic, but also miniatues gaming focused.

Conan works very well in a 4e game with inherent bonuses.

Translating any 4e martial from an inherent bonus game into Pathfinder generally has problems for their effectiveness.

Pathfinder also has some issues for doing Dark Sun where armor, weapons, and magic are not so common. If you want to play a classic D&D gladiator who uses a variety of weird but crappy weapons with terrible armor and still be an effective bad ass it is tough to pull off.


I normally use point buy but I'm thinking next time I will just say use the heroic array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) so that there is less room for huge optimization variations and everybody gets 1 flaw stat and there is only a moderate spread on bonuses or penalties.

I am generally fine with whatever character stat generation process the DM uses, but I prefer balanced stats between PCs.

If you want random but still want overall balance I'd suggest assigning a point buy total for each character and then roll one random stat at a time, leaving the last to be determined by the remaining point buy points after calculating how much the rolled stats cost. This way the exact numbers are random but the distribution is overall balanced even though it is not fully optimized.


I'm a big fan of lots of pantheons in D&D, both real world ones like Norse and Greek, but also the various setting ones that have shown up like Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, 4e, Golarion, Scarred Lands, Nehwon, Elric Young Kingdoms, Cthulhu, and Warhammer.

I generally find the bad guys interesting and the fantasy good guys fairly boring. So Warhammer I really like the four Lords of Chaos and find them full of flavor but not so much their nature or sea or healing god. Similarly the Dragonlance bad guy gods such as the vengeance condor patron of minotaurs, are really cool and I like to read about him while the neutral merchant or the good healing goddess or even the neutral fire and alchemy one just seem fairly bland. For the Young Kingdoms the neutral elemental and animal lords are interesting (probably because they are so alien, partly becuase they showed up in cool contexts in the books), along with the Lords of Chaos but the gods of law not so much and I'm not sure who normal humans or even mainstream human good guy PCs would really follow in the setting.


Young Kingdoms

I've got both Dragonlords and Elric, both are decent IMO. Dragonlords has some mechanical issues but is basicly Elric reprinted with a small d20 gloss. Elric is BRP to start so that would be a good one for only minor adjustments for your style of BRP. The Mongoose ones as well.

I had friends who really liked the Chaosium setting books, Melnibone and the Sorcerer's of Pan Tang as well as the module things like Rogue Mistress.

I picked up the Cults of the Young Kingdoms PDF from Mongoose and really liked it. Lots of little details on stuff like the water demons.

Conan

I felt GURPS Conan did a fine job of being an all in one book with a decent world gazetteer. Mongoose has a ton of regional supplements for specific countries and a religion book that I really like. Their bigger modules look fantastic but I have not read them so I could not say. The TSR Conan modules are fairly typical 80s AD&D modules, nothing really special IMO. I don't have the comics Conan guide, but I've been tempted to get it.

Witcher

I'm not aware of anything for the Witcher, maybe there is a reference guide/gazetteer in the actual video games but I don't know, I've only read one of the novels.

Middle Earth

I've got MERP which is OK, but I find rolemaster stuff fairly dry reading and so never read it in depth. The Guide to Tolkien's World a Bestiary by David Day is fun and I like the art style even if it is not the best setting guide and I've read criticisms of its depiction of Middle Earth.


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captain yesterday wrote:
its never come up for me, but if someone brought a 3PP supplement/adventure and asked me if they could use it or if i'd run it, i would do it every time, i personally have very limited fun money so i have to be very very picky in what i choose, so i generally stick with paizo but if something came along i just had to have i'd certainly look into it (i very much want Razor Coast but can't afford it)

The Razor Coast PDF is currently on sale for $15 instead of the normal $40 on Frog God's website All their RC PDF books are on significant sale after their Ennies nominations. Worth checking out sooner rather than later if you are interested.


Darkholme wrote:
Voadam wrote:
I'm a fan of Oathbound from Epidemic Books. It has a huge corebook (Oathbound 7) plus a massive domain book (Eclipse) and a big bestiary for pathfinder and a ton of regional sourcebooks from 3.0 and 3.5 when it was put out by Bastion Press and DragonWing Games. Its a high powered high fantasy non gothic horror ravenloft style D&D of grabbing in things from other worlds for lots of D&D diversity. I am very partial to the Wildwood wilderness continent/setting in the world with the ranger/druid demigod overlord.

Hmm. I apparently purchased Oathbound 7 a few years back. I recall reading through it and not being grabbed by anything, and I have not used it for anything meaningful since then. I was unaware of the regional books. Are they still for sale anywhere?

So I understand it's a non-gothic-horror Ravenloft type thing. What does it have to make it desirable over just not playing up the horror in the ravenloft setting, or the slightly-creepy places in Golarion?

Its a grab things from other worlds setting (the way the darklords do), not a horror one.

The premise is seven demigods each rule/are imprisoned on a section of the high powered extraplanar prison world of Oathbound. They have the power to grab things from other worlds, individuals, whole armies, whole cities at a time. They do so for their own purposes. It is a planar prison and things can get in but not out. There is a lot of darwinism with dangerous things being thrown together into potential conflicts and thriving and gaining power rapidly plus a lot of death. The whole world is filled with power and life advances quickly with animals and plants growing to maturity quickly creating large populations that are ever changing. High level quickly advancing humanoids are common of various races and cultures.

The settings are diverse, loosely designed by the Seven for their themes, one is wilderness, one is war, one is political might with a giant metropolis built over thousands of years of prior levels of the city that have collapsed into unstable underground network of tunnels.

A great setting for having PCs of any background and encountering a wildly diverse panoply of D&D esoterica and mixing genres in a high magic D&D/Pathfinder game and have in game reasons for a lot of D&Disms.

I ran a game in Wildwood for a long time where the major races were elves, goblins, and dover (dogmen). The only humans were from the PCs dragged in from offworld and the only metal was what they started with. There was tribal and religious issues plus the module I overlayed into the setting.


I thought ACG hybrid classes like the brawler could not multiclass with their parent classes such as the monk for brawler. Was that just a playtest thing or is that rule still applicable in the ACG?


I'm a fan of Oathbound from Epidemic Books. It has a huge corebook (Oathbound 7) plus a massive domain book (Eclipse) and a big bestiary for pathfinder and a ton of regional sourcebooks from 3.0 and 3.5 when it was put out by Bastion Press and DragonWing Games. Its a high powered high fantasy non gothic horror ravenloft style D&D of grabbing in things from other worlds for lots of D&D diversity. I am very partial to the Wildwood wilderness continent/setting in the world with the ranger/druid demigod overlord.

I also like Green Ronin's Statless Pirate's Guide to Freeport which has a Pathfinder conversion book. It has a bunch of supplements and d20 adventures. Urban island D&D trade city with pirates and underlying Cthulhu themes.


Polymorph any object will do it permanently if you want a different type of tree.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Taperat wrote:
What Pathfinder has yet to do as much that 3.5 did is create classes based on 'entirely new' subsystems. 3.5 had invocations, incarnum, psionics, martial maneuvers, binding, ect. Pathfinder as of yet seems skittish of such mechanics.
Off the very top of my head: Hexes and Grit

Grit/Ki/Arcana Pool/Exploit Pool/(insert pool point mechanic here) tend to all operate more or less the same way. The big difference betweent hem though is just how many you get. And they are pretty well self contained within the class.

Hexes, while new, are pretty well supported. They are not like many of 3.5 material where the only support comes from teh book they are in.

A Big example of how 3.5 suffered from this problem is:

Spell lists that never grew (like Hexcrafter or Warmage)
Incarnum
All the systems from ToM
All the systems in Bo9S
Psionics
Warlock Invocations
Dragonfire Adept Invocations
ect.

It felt like WotC made things and immediately forgot about them alot.

Psionics had a whole hardcover supplemental book, Complete Psionics.

I believe there are more warlock invocations in Fiendish Codex II Devils.
More TOM Binder vestiges showed up in both web enhancements and dragon magazine I believe.

Weren't Incarnum, Bo9S, and Dragon Magic fairly near the end of 3.5?


Dan Howlett wrote:


I've been seeding for a while now that nobody knows who the next queen is going to be. I've kinda modified the background story that every time Baba Jaga produces a new generation of Jadwiga that she mates with a different outsider, in part culling that unique heritage for herself when she drinks down their power. This I'm going to reveal in the Mother where traditionally Baba Jaga in her new form gives birth to the next generation of Witches and casts "Temporal Status" until she is ready.

Then she will proceed to the Croning ritual and enters the Eon Pit basking in her full power. The team has been responding well to learning Baba Jaga's secrets and this seems like a big one. I've considered dropping a big plot twist here as well, as two of my characters have outsider heritage and both of them women and that unknown to them, one of them is the next intended queen and daughter of Baba Jaga's. I think this...

I went a little with the different heritages as well.

In mine the first husband was an elven PC when they met Maiden her in the timey wimey First World and an Ulfen PC crossed her, spurring her to invade the Linnorm Kingdoms and found Irresen to punish his crossing her. All the original Jadwigga can be elven or half elven or through interbreeding human.

The Second generation queen was Morgannan who I had being the daughter of the mythic Winter Wolf Fenris to tie in a little with the Winter Wolf story in second module. True Morgannan Jadwigga are wolfweres and Morganna created RedTooth herself as her vacation home.

Tashanna is the fiend lover whose Jadwigga can be tieflings.

I didn't do out the others but this left room for lots of nonhuman Jadwigga, like the Ulfen character's replacement character, an elven hexcrafter magus Jadwigga.


Some concepts from 4e I'd like to see how to emulate in PF mechanically:

Warlord, guy in armor with a melee weapon near the front line who (mechanically) yells at his allies to attack again (and they do) and when they are hurt he shouts at them to walk it off and get back in the fight (and they do). Can emulate the flavor through roleplay on a fighter but the mechanics to back up the effects are desired.

Defender role classes. A tough hombre who punishes bad guys with attacks or zaps if the bad guys do not focus on them.
PF Paladins are sort of the antidefenders with their smite giving bad guys serious incentives to avoid engaging them. Antagonize feat can give a persistent -2 on attacks against others, but no damaging threat.


DrDeth wrote:
Voadam wrote:


Warlock or Dragonfire Adept with at will blasting.

The Thundercaller Bard comes pretty darn close.

Where is that from?


D&D concepts:

Eberron artificer.

Warlock or Dragonfire Adept with at will blasting.

Dragon Shaman aura buffing.

Psionic classes - in particular the soulknife (my understanding is that the excellent Dreamscarred versions don't count as they are 3rd party).

Media fantasy concepts:

Avatar bending magic. Some individual spells come close to specific powers but I'd like to see how close the concepts can come.

Xanth style one magic power characters.

Tempus from Thieves World. Regenerating cursed paladin/champion of a nasty god.


thejeff wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:

Now, what I would like is if not a single one of the new iconics was human. They've got six new classes and seven races to choose from, so at the very least, one race is getting left out- I suspect half-orc, because they always get the short end of the stick. But it would be nice if there was one of each race except human.

A pipe dream, maybe.

That would be nice. Far too many of them are human. All of these being non-human would barely bring non-human iconics all together up to the human number. At least by my count there are two of each race, except half-elves have 3 and humans have a lot.

It would also be nice to see some different ethnicities for the non-humans. Humans have a broad range. The other races not so much, partly because there are only a couple examples of each.

How do the human iconics break down by Golarion ethnicity?

There are many well-known defined Golarion human ethnicities but the non-human core races have only a few fairly obscure non fantasy race default ethnicities (black elves, egyptian dwarves, etc.) that I am aware of.


Cyrad wrote:
Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
What makes Advantage / Disadvantage work so well in 5e, is that it's used in place of more complex arithmetic, no circumstantial +2/+5, -2/-5 etc.

If I were to add advantage/disadvantage to Pathfinder, I'd still prefer it a uniform numeric bonus/penalty that stacks rather than a fortune/pugwampi effect. That would eliminate a lot of the issues with the mechanic while still providing the benefit of a simplistic way to track and calculate circumstantial bonuses/penalties.

For example, every advantage grants a +2 circumstance bonus whereas every disadvantage grants a -2 penalty. Since the number remains the same, you only need to count the number of advantages/disadvantages and multiply by 2.

4e advantage was always a flat +2 circumstance bonus I believe. It applied to flanking, attacking a prone opponent, attacking an opponent that can't see you, etc. Similar to 5e I believe it did not stack with itself for multiple advantages from different circumstances. I believe rogues sneak attacked on any advantage situation.

Easily stealable for pathfinder.


The sale was down for a while and a bunch of things removed from the sale such as the pathfinder stuff as well as the deadlands d20 things I had in my cart.

I'm eyeing the Beasts and Barbarians line plus Solomon Kane and Iron Dynasty supplements.


As a player I bring the core book to the game and a print out of my character sheet and the full text of my spells which I've copied from the PRD, d20pfsrd, archives of Nethys, and the 3e sourcebooks I've gotten approved.

When I was DMing I'd bring the current module. I'd rely upon the guy hosting the game's copies of the Bestiary I and II and players to have the core book, the APG, d20pfsrd, etc. I'd have print outs of the combat stats of the monsters I expected the party to face that night for ease of reference. I'd occasionally bring in a specific monster book for a monster I wanted to use such as 3e OGL books like Denizens of Avadnu or Creature Collection II. I also generally brought my tablet with a couple of the PDFs on there and I've looked things up during games like a specific demon lord's flavor description or to have a module page open for reference while my physical copy was at another page.

I read my print books for general reading and reference. I've gone back to the campaign setting and gods and magic numerous times to look up details and I've read the campaign setting front to back. I've read the modules I've run the most for softcovers, I've read them each cover to cover and parts of them multiple times.

I'll flip around things like my PDFs of Chronicles of the Righteous and the Demon Lords book as the fancy strikes me to check out topics.

Most of my player game mechanics are done using things like the PRD, d20pfsrd, the Archives of Nethys. A little bit of things like using my pdf of the 3.5 spell compendium or Complete Book of Eldritch Might or the rite publishing 1001 spells book.

As a DM I used a bunch of my PDF resources (pathfinder, d20/OGL, and other) for both flavor research stuff and mechanical monster stats.


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Rpgnow has a 15% off sale for Savage Worlds PDFs through Sept. 30. It also includes a few other pdfs by companies that have Savage Worlds and other system products (I saw some Super Genius Games Pathfinder PDFs in the sale).


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Zaister wrote:
Not to rain on your parade here, but the hungry fog I recently sent against my players in ** spoiler omitted ** was easily the most pathetic monster I've seen in a long time in any adventure. With its brilliant initiative modifier (I rolled a 3, for a total of ZERO) the thing had no chance at all against an 8th level partyl.

Hmm.

That adventure is for level 7+ characters.
Your PCs were 8th level.
Hungry fog is CR 6.
The Gamemastering chapter of the Core Rulebook says an APL -1 encounter is "easy."
For your 8th-level PCs, it was an APL –2 encounter.
And you're surprised the hungry fog had no chance against them?
APL –2 is like one orc war1 (CR 1/3) against an APL 1 party of PCs (four level 1 PCs). It's a slaughter.
In that encounter, the [other monster] is CR 9 and is the real challenge (for the level 7+ PCs). The CR 6 hungry fog is just there for flavor.

That module states in the intro level pacing section that the party should be 8th level before they enter the dungeon that includes that encounter, 9th before they hit a big specific fight and 10th before they leave that dungeon so his party was not more powerful than expected by the module.

Even compared to the standard CR 6 though the Hungry fog is fairly open to being taken out quickly. Its AC of 5 is 14 below the average AC of 19 for its CR. Its strong save is 3 below CR average and its weak saves are 6 and 8 below average for its CR with both being negative save modifiers. Combined with hp that are 11 lower than average for the CR and a super low initiative this monster is particularly vulnerable to being dispatched before it can act.

Its attacks are either doing average 21 damage on one target compared to the average 25 suggested damage, or a non-grappling engulf over possibly multiple opponents that does 11 average damage plus staggered to each. Its secondary ability is DC 8 compared to an average of 11 for its secondary special ability are weak. The Bestiary states that generally monster ability DCs should not go below the secondary DC numbers and this one does by 3.

Mechanically it synergises well with undead and evil clerics, but by the core bestiary numbers this looks like it should be a lower CR than it is listed at.


I've played an eldritch knight, and other players in my group played mystic theurge, dragon disciple, and rage prophet.

I ran Reign of Winter so Winter Witch was used.


Are your players familiar with the series?

If so you might want to file off the serial numbers so that it is not so obvious to them what the plot is or so that when the PCs take things in different directions from the books' plots it does not cause dissonance.

Otherwise feel free to rip off liberally, it will make keeping names and story ideas straight easier and you can refer to the books or wiki entries for the series to keep details straight.

I've played in games where the DM took a book series and used that as the basis for the plot. It worked well, had neat themes and ideas that were engaging and was fun overall. I had never read the series or heard about it until after the campaign was over so it was all fresh to me when I went through it.

I've also played in D&D games where literary settings and characters were merged into a D&D setting and it was fine interacting with Elric and visiting the Seven-Walled-City of Minas Tirith and having the Lankhmar pantheon exist even without any Moorcock, Tolkien, or Lieber explicit plots.


Necromancer wrote:

Missed a few classes:

  • Erudite (variant psion, Complete Psionic)
  • Factotum (Dungeonscape)
  • Beguiler (Player's Handbook II)
  • Dragon Shaman (Player's Handbook II)
  • Duskblade (Player's Handbook II)
  • Knight (Player's Handbook II)
  • Astral Deva* (1-20 monster class, Savage Species)
  • Ghaele* (1-20 monster class, Savage Species)

*Included because I've been in games where the DM offered these alongside regular classes.

There were a lot of monster class classes. They had a bunch on web articles in addition to Savage Species.

If Kenzer stuff counts as by WotC then I think Dragon articles by Paizo count as well.

Replacement levels are similar to archetypes and should not count, but there are a ton of variant classes from things like Unearthed Arcana and Dragon that are similar to Pathfinder's antipaladin.


I love the general mechanics of the warlock: at will magical blasting and magics that are generally lower down on the power scale. I disliked the constant flight and invisibility and dimension door, those were annoying at the table whether used by players or NPCs. The simple mechanics were great to run them and made it easy to make cultist NPCs quickly that were easy to run at the table.

I liked the flavor of the class a lot too. Outsider pacts with different flavors than clerics or wizards.

I would like a good implementation for pathfinder with lots of flavorful powers that are not annoying in practice.

I got Adamant Entertainment's version years ago but did not really care for them and have not used them. I remember that some other company did a version of them as well as the truespeakers from Tome of Magic with a few good reviews but I have not checked those out yet.


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ikarinokami wrote:


if you are not going to accept the answer, why bother asking the question in the first place.

To hear the reasoning, get different viewpoints, explore the issue, see what others think about the issue and why.


Two traits is the standard.

Sometimes people give out a free campaign trait on top of the two normal traits. The WotR game I'm in right now the DM is doing that.

If the feat extra traits is then taken the character would have 5 traits total. 4 is just one feat away in a normal campaign.


Zaister wrote:
I'm wondering, what exactly is Vsevolod doing there at the Eon Pit? And how long does it take him? If the PCs rest in the dungeons, does it make sense for him to still be there after days?

Its never specified.

Working on an extended ritual related to Kotschie is the way to go with it being in character for him and providing a reason for him to be there for an extended period of time.

To manifest an avatar/aspect of Kotschie?

To break Artrosia?

To use the Crone to birth a mini Worldwound of strong male demons that breaks the crone in the process?

To use death sacrifices of winter apected beings (frost giants) to plunder some of Baba Yaga's secret knowledge for Kotschie?

Something to do with the Torc of Kotschie to link it into the Witchwar Legacy module if you want to use that as an after AP capstone?


I follow the rule but its not an important one IMO. If you are interested in the mechanically useful specific class skill, save bonus or the init bonus traits they are usually available in multiple trait categories so power wise complying with the rule is not really a detriment.

Despite the stated roleplaying broadening intent of the rule you can fairly easily get closely paired concepts for traits from two trait categories. I essentially doubled up on sociability with my latest wizard who took human racial trait World Traveller (diplomacy as a class skill with a +1 trait bonus) and Clever Word Play (int instead of cha for diplomacy) which made for a mechanically decent face character from the get go.


LazarX wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Well... I'll be having plenty of nightmares tonight

And we didn't even need Stephen Moffat, the man who's made millions across the world learn to fear...

Satutes,
Closets,
Old Hotel Rooms,
Snowmen,
Santa,
Clowns,
Shadows,

Am I missing anything? :)

Clowns?


Charlie Bell wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Is there a single book all of this wonderful lore is in?

lubs me some lore!
Book of the Damned I: Princes of Darkness has all the info on Ihys, as well as a (possibly quite biased or otherwise flawed) history of the early multiverse.
It's awesome, but that typeface is super hard to read.

I agree, I've skimmed over it or skipped it instead of doing a thorough reading of that section a number of times for that reason.

Now that I have the PDF, when I get around to reading it in depth I plan to copy the text into a word document and change it into a more readable font.


Torag is an OK option, I'd think. LG god of the forge and protection. He's a dwarven patron and similar to Moradin for Golarion. I don't know him well enough to know about his paladins and inquisitors and such but as a protector with crafting he fits well with cutting edge black powder tech in my mind and being against supernatural evils.


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Claxon wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:

No offense, JJ but this is the rules forums. As such, I agree it probably should be in the rules. But it isn't. And thus it is false.

Claiming that isn't the way it should be does not change the fact that that is not the way it is.

It is false until it is added to the rules.

No offense, but I hate this line of thinking.

This is the line of reason that says Shield Master allows you to dual wield two shields with absolutely no penalties for iteratives, or for being blind, or for any reason whatsoever.

This is terrible logic, and needs to stop.

The rules are not intended to be read through some super legalistic parsing to get at the true meaning.

Language is complicated. Sometimes human cannot help but make errors. However, more often than not the intent of things is clear, even if not explicit. Arguing that "because it's not written it's wrong" is silly.

Realize that the intent of the rules is more important RAW. Now, when questions of intent arise sure, lets have a discussion. But when I see a 500 post thread discussing whether paladins, the mortal paragons of virtue and goodness, can worship evil gods....I have to wonder what is wrong with some people.

Are you just arguing to argue? Playing devils advocate? Do you simply wish to "stick it" to someone and be "right" that paladins can worship evil?

No, the rules here are arbitrary and can work either way creating different story possibilities depending on which way the rules go.

Having paladins be one step away alignment wise from their gods as a requirement can make sense and create certain stories. Classic Iomedaen/Charlemagne/Sir Galahad paladins fit here. The link between a Good god and the faithful paladin is emphasized.

Having paladins be powered by Goodness and not gods and have it unrelated to their church attendance and participation in worship services can make sense and allow for different stories. The Godclaw type ones fit better here. A paladin is a special [GOOD] individual, without the focus being on the Good from his church or god in this type of story.


James Jacobs wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:


2) A Paladin must worship a deity whose alignment is within one step of their own.

Once again, THIS IS FALSE.

That rule specifies only clerics and inquisitors. No one else has to follow that rule. It has been shown, quoted, linked to, and specified so many times it is becoming irksome. Stop bringing it up people. That rule does not apply to paladins.

It's not false. It's not in the rules, and that's a shame, but it's not false.

It should indeed apply to paladins. Moreso than any other class, in fact, since no other class has as strict an alignment restriction as do paladins.

Are you going to revise the PH and PRD? Put up an official errata to note this requirement that is not actually in the rules?

Otherwise I think a LG paladin powered by divine forces of Good who worships CG Desna or Cayden Cailean or undead hating N Pharasma (using the default pantheon and not Golarion or PFS specific game) is a rules valid character concept according to the PH that makes for an interesting character concept that is not nonsensical.

Similarly a drunken master archetype monk who worships Cayden Cailean or a CG barbarian who is into hunting woshipping Erastil even though those are alignment restricted classes as well.


Little Red Goblin Games wrote:


Oh yeah and for those who have not seen, we have a Patreon where we are releasing our future work for $5! www.patreon.com/LittleRedGoblinGames

I'm not sure how this works exactly from that link. Patrons give you $5 for one 15+ page product plus all smaller future ones? Or does $5 get all future nonkickstarter projects? Or is it a commitment to give $5 per product you work on?


Midnight_Angel wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Except the paladin's aura isn't based off the deity they follow.

Sure about that? Last time I checked, Detect $slignment had a special entry for Cleric or Paladin of an aligned deity

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
As you can see the wording is quite different from the cleric aura feature. A paladin receives an aura of good no matter whom they worship.

...which would be in addition to the aura they receive from their deity.

Now, this would imply result in a hypothetical Asmodean Paladin pinging Good (as per Paladin class feature), as well as Lawful and Evil (as per the entry in the Detect Evil table), all of these at full strength.

In fact, the exceptional strength of the Paladin's aura from his deity is, in my opinion, a strong argument for the paladin being massively tied into his deities principles... which would heavily imply a one-step-maximum divergence of alignments.

No one stated that a Paladin has to worship a deity. But if he does, evidence strongly suggests his alignment has to be within one step of said deity.

Just my 2 cents...

Paladins do not gain the aura of their gods, they just get an aura of Good as a class feature.

They do not gain an aura of Law even if they are LG paragons of LG who worship LG gods whose LG clerics have auras of Law. To get the aura of their patron deities' alignment they can do so by multiclassing into cleric which specifically says as a class feature that they get the aura of their deities' alignment.


I grew up in Massachusetts and started playing in '81. No hysteria around where I lived or from anyone I knew. My parents thought it was a good match for my interests in the Middle Ages and mythology and got me hanging out with friends for hours in ways that didn't get us in trouble.

In Junior High one of my friends got the school to approve an RPG club as one of the elective period activities and we played GURPS and TMNT in school, as a regular class like photography and indoor soccer.


Josh M. wrote:


HarbinNick wrote:


-So here is what gets me....how do you run gothic horror without devout serfs, and superstitious people in Barovia...
You do something in-game that shows this character that higher powers exist, even if they are just a mask worn by the Dark Powers. Have the party fight some infernal, hellish thing, and maybe a light breaks through the clouds and envelopes the party in healing rays, or something. It's all fantasy, so go nuts.

I would definitely not recommend the clouds parting and heavenly light and high magic celestial aid coming through. That is completely not the gothic horror trope that Ravenloft is themed on.

Ominous dark stuff after a cultist's ritual works but it is not a setting for flashy celestial goodness from the heavens.

Good priests can exist on theme in the setting, but they are not dominant powerhouses who scare the bad guys, unless they are a different gothic horror trope like secretly corrupted in some way or zealous evil inquisition in the name of good.


From the module it is a bit vague and a bit of a plot hole for the DM to fill.

The three big players are Jadrenka, Vsevolod, and Caigreal.

Caigreal Manhater allied with Vsevolod Womancurser with the plan to trip up Jadrenka and eventually betray Vsevolod. How her plan will aid her goals is not clear from the text.

Jadrenka is the defender but Vsevolod has rampaged through desecrating as he goes. She put Marislova in time out (for her own good or to punish for the nymph hair). What she is doing is vague and her motivations are not spelled out well.

Vsevolod hates them all and wants to do stuff down in the Eon Pit . . .? He allied with Caigreal but plans to kill her.

In mine I had decided Vsevolod had captured Jadrenka but Caigreal wants to betray Vsev and be open to an alliance with the party only to abandon them in the fight to ritually turn Jadrenka from a women to a hag.

Jadrenka then had stuffed Marislova into a box for safe keeping, not the assumed punishment.

Vsevelod is preparing a big ritual to sacrifice Jadrenka to consecrate the area in the deathless frost's name so he can take over the stones and scry for Kostchie's torc.


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James Jacobs wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

Or, on the gripping hand, if I worshipped Asmodeus, I'd make the best choice for law, and the best choice for good by simply ignoring the evil aspects of Asmodeus. We've already accepted "cafeteria Sarenraeism," where I get to pick and choose the aspects of the deity I like. Why not cafeteria Asmodeanism?

But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.

"Cafeteria Asmodism" woulud be lawful neutral or neutral evil. That's basically the "one step from your deity" situation. Note that neither of those are lawful good.

This seems like it would apply too to a paladin who grew up in a Cult of the Dawnflower society where the church preached imperialism and that slavery is normal.

Such a LG paladin who worships Sarenrae but ignores those church teachings to focus on the good of Sarenrae will be doing chaotic acts and not acting in a lawful manner and thus would drift away from lawful good to neutral good. And then would no longer be a paladin.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
i honestly don't want to be forced to play such a character as a Patrick Warburton or Ashton Kutcher Moron Classic Overused Role Parody
So who forced you to use a stat array with a 4 intelligence? Not I.

Since this is an advice thread about an actual experience and the situation was explained on page 1 this has an answer. The DM had them roll stats and then for this player had him place the 4 in int.

As a fellow player I would not chastise him for not role playing mentally disabled enough. Since I believe the poster said it was this player's first experience with Pathfinder I'd encourage him to just try to have fun playing a sorcerer.


Blindmage wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:
Things with 4 legs get a big bouns, and things with no legs can't be...like snakes for example, and swarms and ooze.
Technically you can trip snakes (flip it on it's back). Snakes don't have the "can't be tripped" note.

But snake demons with humanoid upper torsos do have that quality and you can't flip them on their back. :)


I'm making an unarmed strike focused gestalt diviner wizard/lore warden fighter with master of many forms monk thrown in for a Wrath of the Righteous game and I'm considering going a trip focused path.

The general wisdom I've heard is that CMD starts decently attainable but becomes more and more unattainable as CR goes up with Balors at CMD 54 at CR 20.

What level range is trip generally viable in your opinion?

I'll have improved trip at level 2 and lots of feats like vicious stomp greater trip, tripping strike as I go along.

There is a Rite Publishing level 1 swift action 1 round duration divination called Down and Out that gives a +10 on the next trip attempt which I'm running by the DM which I'm hoping will extend the viability of tripping for a few levels.

Also any other big considerations for tripping? Actively flying creatures and mariliths are immune I know but I expect I'll be in punching range of a lot of stuff on the ground during the campaign.


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James Jacobs wrote:


But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.

"Cafeteria Asmodism" woulud be lawful neutral or neutral evil. That's basically the "one step from your deity" situation. Note that neither of those are lawful good.

Wait.

A lawful good character who is devoted to law worships LE Asmodeus as the lawful patron of his nation and who is worthy of respect and veneration as the binder of Rovagug. He follows and respects a lot of the lawful but ignores the evil teachings of the church. He keeps himself bound by an honorable code of conduct and joins a lawful organization with lawful aims and methods (say the hellknights).

He is chaoticly not lawful because even though he follows a lawful code and worships a lawful god, he does not follow the evil teachings of the god's church?

It seems a stretch to say that not following a church's evil teachings is necessarily enough to turn an otherwise lawful creature from lawful into a nonlawful one.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Voadam wrote:


And yet it is explicitly education and a trained only skill. It has a special circumstance for simple questions in the field wich you can use the skill check mechanic untrained to get a knowledge answer to DC 10 questions and another special circumstance for checking at libraries for higher DC skills.

So, then, it's NOT restricted only to education, by the very passages you cite.

I stand by my interpretation.

And your interpretation is that characters should be limited to knowing common knowledge stuff through the knowledge skill mechanics? That int 8 and higher can generally take 10 and know common stuff without interrupting the game but int 7 and lower should roll for and not assume and be hit and miss on the PC knowing all basic knowledge?

That knowledge skills in pathfinder are not simply a mechancal option to get questions in fields of study answered based on abstract character education but a definition and limit of how much a character knows?

Is that a valid characterization?


Orfamay Quest wrote:


Voadam wrote:
If you know the answer yourself you don't need to roll to check to see if your character's education included that knowledge.

So everyone at your table knows how to make gunpowder even though none of them have a rank in any relevant skill?

I disagree, vehemently. Player knowledge is not character knowledge. That's the very definition of metagaming.

Character knowledge vs knowledge skill. Not player vs character knowledge. I thought the example of a PC finding out specific knowledge in the game not through the knowledge skill mechanic would make that fairly clear.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Voadam wrote:
The actual rule is that knowledge skill represents education in a field of study, not general common knowledge.

Citation?

Here you go:

PRD wrote:

Knowledge

(Int; Trained Only)

You are educated in a field of study and can answer both simple and complex questions.

Orfamay wrote:

The fact that you can make 'untrained' Knowledge checks at all suggests that it does not represent education, or you'd not be able to make the checks without education.

And yet it is explicitly education and a trained only skill. It has a special circumstance for simple questions in the field wich you can use the skill check mechanic untrained to get a knowledge answer to DC 10 questions and another special circumstance for checking at libraries for higher DC skills.


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Every class got rid of dead levels and most gained some X/day resource.

Classes got lots of reasons to stay in their core classes with generally escalating class abilities (even fighters).

Many classes got a HD upgrade to match their BAB progression.

Sneak attack works on undead and constructs (but still not on oozes and elementals).

Paladins can fall from code violations, not just gross code violations. Paladin smite is now fantastic and lay on hands themselves as a swift action is great.

Clerics lost heavy armor and their turn starts off being a healing burst that damages undead.

Favored class is now not racially based and gives you a bonus when you take a level in the class, either +1 hp or 1 skill point.

Skills: added in fly skill, condensed some skills, removed the times four skill points at first level, the cross-class skill half skill rank penalties, and added in a +3 competence bonus for class skills.

Concentration is now a level + casting ability check, concentration checks are tougher in general.

Most spells have as many changes as the 3.0-3.5 change (goes for most rules throughout the system as well). More save or die turned into save or take lots of damage. Some CoDzilla spells toned down.

Dispel magic works on only one effect, detect evil does not pick up non cleric, non outsider or undead, evil monsters until they hit 5th level and it does pick up evil intentions.

Lots of mini-polymorph spells (beast shape, elemental form, dragon) based off the caster's stats with buffs.

Cantrips are cast unlimited amounts now.

Grapple turned into CMB and CMD and folded disarm, trip, and overrun into the same basic d20 mechanic. Grapple specifics changed and trounces casters.

Monsters got a general toughness upgrade, some low level monsters with drain got damage abilities instead (allip).

Giants are now a humanoid subtype.

Elementals are now an outsider subtype.

Different xp chart.

Cleave works differently, Power Attack is a fixed escalating bonus and penalty but more damage, combat expertise is fixed escalation, combat reflexes does not have a prerequisite.

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