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Ezren

Voadam's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 381 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Set wrote:

Undeath and gluttony? Hm. Who got dragged into the underworld, and they couldn't drag her back out because she couldn't help but stuff her face while she was down there?

:)

(Seriously, 'though, I'm not sure there's a great port for Urgathoa in *any* pantheon. Goddess of death and gluttony / hedonism? That's a pretty original pairing.)

I'd bet there are some ghoul themed undead decadent consumer entities somewhere in D&D and d20 lore. That Ghoul King who worked for Yeenoghu and might now be associated with Orcus? Possibly some vampire ones as well. Orcus as a fat slob undead gormand?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Set wrote:

Undeath and gluttony? Hm. Who got dragged into the underworld, and they couldn't drag her back out because she couldn't help but stuff her face while she was down there?

:)

(Seriously, 'though, I'm not sure there's a great port for Urgathoa in *any* pantheon. Goddess of death and gluttony / hedonism? That's a pretty original pairing.)

Aspects that overlap are usually enough for me. Its a bit flavor in that syncretism of disparate stuff is a real world phenomena that's neat and a little bit RPG tool to access different but similar flavor resources that can be shared and used as desired.

Having some significant differences also gives validity to the idea that these are not the same divinities, it is just some people mentally merging them for their own understanding. I like having both options be reasonable viewpoints in the world.

When you look at Demeter and Isis they are major goddesses of their pantheons who are mothers but have a lot of differences. But they both end up with the same myth of wandering the land on a long term search quest, deciding to stay for a time with a mortal noble family as nanny, and shoving the baby boy into the fire to make him immortal through a multi-day ritual only to be interrupted a few days into the baking by the horrified mother which leads to the deification being ruined and the goddess revealing herself and leaving on her long search again. So you could say Isis is what the Egyptians call Demeter or you could say Demeter is not a magic bird goddess like Isis and it is just some myths that got appropriated.

So for my purposes take Chardun from Scarred Lands who is both The General, and The Slaver Master of Devils. Going to the 4e pantheon parts of him match up to Bane the evil general styled-war god and parts to Asmodeus.

For Urgathoa, Undeath is uncommon outside of fantasy pantheons but Disease and Gluttony come in a little more frequently. I should have put Gaurok down for her in Scarred Lands as well for that aspect. This could lead to using some undeadified Gaurok origin gluttony-themed titanspawn from the three Creature Collections if I want to flesh out an Ugathoa secret hot spot.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

There are actually more than 2 sun deities. There's also, for example, the demon lord Nurgal, who's also a sun deity, as folks mentioned above.

And as folks mention, there's a lot of overlap with the gods. Generally not among gods of a like pantheon, so you don't see multiple sun deities in the core 20 for Inner Sea, or the core 20 for Tian Xia, or among the demon lords.

I happily throw in the Burning Hate alongside Nurgal!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Irori - Apollo
This one is deeply shaky. Athena's still a bad match, but somewhat more appropriate.

Apollo has athletic physical perfection and the whole enlightened reason plus prophecy thing. He is more logic and wisdom than straight knowledge but I feel it works pretty well for monk like physical and spiritual enlightenment with a little prophecy covering knowledge.

Athena is generally more clever wisdom and battle strategy than straight knowledge too and I'm not familiar with her as physical perfection except arising fully formed and being a great battle goddess.

DMW wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Norgorber - Hades
Hermes, as a murderer and God of Thieves, is an infinitely better choice here. Hades really isn't a criminal deity...quite the opposite, really.

Hades I was going with Greed and wealth, but you are right, that fits better with Abadar and Hermes as criminal patron fits better here.

DMW wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Urgathoa - Apollo, Eris
Neither of these really fit. At all. I dunno who does...let me think a bit.

Apollo sends out the arrows of disease. I thought some of Ares henchgods had disease and natural order disruption associations as well and Eris came to mind in that role. The undeath and even gluttony are tough to find good matches straight out though from the well known gods.

DMW wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Zon Kuthon - Hades

Definitely wrong. Hades is, as mentioned, one of the nicer Greek Gods. I'm pretty sure there is no good equivalent here, and if there were it sure as hell wouldn't be Hades.

I was looking at the envy and darkness aspects of Zon Kuthon. Hades got the worst of the three kingdom straws to Zeus and Poseidon despite being the eldest brother and was not happy about it. He abducted Persephone because he desperately wanted a young nature goddess.

His special weapon is the Helm of Darkness and he is associated with darkness and dark places.

His realm also has all the eternal painful punishment areas for Tantalus, Sisyphus, Ixion, and others.

Tartarus is more directly evil punishment and pain.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Voadam wrote:

Some analogues for Ancient Greece

Abadar - Hera, Hermes

Hades is actually a better match than Hermes here, both alignment-wise and as the God of Wealth.

Hades as wealth is a good match, but Hermes is a god of trade and city boundaries and fits aspects there.

DMW wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Asmodeus - Chronos
That's...off. Asmodeus is both still around and very different, personality-wise.

Chronos is an ancient evil glorious ruler figure so aspects fit. Personality wise Asmodeus is tough to find a good analogue.

DMW wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Desna - Morpheus, Tyche
Yeah, I guess those'll work. Maybe throw in Artemis as well.

For the moon-stars night time sky connection?

DMW wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Erastil - Demeter, Artemis
That'll do. Maybe throw in Hestia as well, for the community thing...

I always thought of her as hearth and home for single households and not for village style community, but she is associated with the proper ordering of the state so she works too.

DMW wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Gozreh - Poseidon
Solid call, there. Zeus should probably be thrown in here, he's a decent match, and should certainly be on the list somewhere.

Yeah, bearded older storm god should be there for Gozreh too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some analogues for Norse Pantheon

Abadar - foresetti
Asmodeus - Surtr
Calistria - Loki, Freyja, Vidar, Vali
Cayden Cailean - Thor
Desna - Frey
Erastil - Frey, Ullr
Gorum - Odin, Freyja
Gozreh - Aegir, Ran
Iomedae - Tyr, Odin
Irori - Odin
Lamashtu - Angrboda
Nethys - Odin, Freyja
Norgorber - Loki, Gulveig, Odin
Pharasma - Freyja, Odin, Hel
Rovagug - Fenris, Jormungandr
Sarenrae - Baldur
Shelyn - Freyja, Bragi
Torag - Heimdall, Villi, Ve
Urgathoa - Hel
Zon Kuthon - Loki, Hod


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some analogues for Ancient Greece

Abadar - Hera, Hermes
Asmodeus - Chronos
Calistria - Aphrodite, Nemesis, Hermes
Cayden Cailean - Dionysus, Hermes, Heracles
Desna - Morpheus, Tyche
Erastil - Demeter, Artemis
Gorum - Ares
Gozreh - Poseidon
Iomedae - Athena
Irori - Apollo
Lamashtu - Echidna
Nethys - Hecate
Norgorber - Hades
Pharasma - Hades
Rovagug - Typhon
Sarenrae - Apollo
Shelyn - Aphrodite, Apollo, Muses
Torag - Hephaestus
Urgathoa - Apollo, Eris
Zon Kuthon - Hades


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
pclark4422 wrote:

Thanks for the responses. These have been ongoing issues for our group and we've been rotating GMs (myself included) so its not just one of us. Different situations are popping up in every situation, and without an encyclopedic knowledge of the game its impossible to plan for these contingencies.

. . .

The problem with skill bloat is its polarizing nature. You end up with only two possibilities. Either a) The unmaxed characters will have chance at succeeding and the maxed character will succeed 100% of the time, or or b) the Maxed character has a chance of failure and the unmaxed characters have no chance of success. I find it hard to have a middle ground in there where the Maxed character will have say an 80% chance of success and the unmaxed may only have a 25-30%. That is to say theyre better, but not perfect. This isn't as terribly important in skills that are used individually, such as ride, swim, craft, but skills that are used as a party where only one has to succeed, perception, spellcraft, survival, sense motive, diplomacy, bluff etc, it creates problems. Stealth and perception, to me, tend to be the two biggest culprits of the all or nothing scenario.

4e skills work around that type of a success model. Every character gets a 1/2 level + stat bonus modifier on all skill checks. If you are trained in a skill you get another +5.

You don't get the dabbling with a few skill points option as your skills are binarily trained or not but the success range for everyone in the party is much closer while still having significant benefits for training and ability score specialization.

Fairly easy to import into Pathfinder.


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Graeme Lewis wrote:


And I like oozes. I'd like a playable ooze or oozelike race. I'd like ARG-style calculations for the Ooze type or Ooze Immunities.

Dralasites!

Also check out The Squole from Alluria Publishing.

Alluria's the one with the high quality Cerulean Seas underwater Pathfinder stuff but they originally did a set of races for pathfinder that is well done too. I've gotten good use from their race compendium book.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Set wrote:


Enkili, as a dual-gendered sky/storm god, also maps over pretty well to Gozreh.

Otherwise, yeah, I agree with most of this. Some are almost eerily similar (Madriel the Redeemer, NG goddess of healing, mercy and the sun pretty much *is* Sarenrae, for instance), others have an aspect here or there.

Corean is sort of Torag + Iomedae, for instance.

I thought the fact that Scarred Lands has a sky goddess of butterflies was a neat match for Desna as well.

Good catch on Enkili with the dual gender and storms.

Enkili as trickster could go a little ways with Calistria as a deception goddess as well, though I see her aspects of lust and revenge as being more central to her.

Belsameth fits in well among the respected witch patrons of Irrisen for my campaign along with Hecate (Greek), Mestama (Golarion Demon Lord), Grazzt (D&D Demon Lord), Antaia (Book of Fiends Devil), Celigune (Monster Mythology), Gyronna (Golarion), Carniveau (Book of Fiends Fallen Power), and Nocticula (Golarion, D&D, Book of Fiends Demon Lord). Freyja as an Ulfen deity is not favored by Irreseni witches despite her attributes being otherwise attractive to the Jadwigga.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have a version of the Holy Lothian empire from Ptolus as a big part of my setting and Lothian the ascended paladin is known for having a bunch of saints. I decided in addition to the ones listed in Ptolus he would have absorbed some of the compatible gods of pantheons from conquered/absorbed territories so Madriel serves as one of his angels, Corean the Smith and Hedrada the Lawgiver from Scarred Lands are part of the saintly host with Corean's orders of knighthoods now working for the Imperial church.

For the city-state/territory of Taldor in the western empire where the native Golarion pantheon was worshiped the imperial church says Lothian convinced Iomedae to join his cause and she is now venerated throughout the empire as St. Iomedae the Inheritor. Some mountain monasteries stay true to Iomedae as one of the great Gods and reject the saint story as Lothian propaganda and heresy.

Rumors state that Lothian is in negotiations with Sarenrae for her to join the chorus of angels who serve him.


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Some analogues for Dragonlance

Abadar - Shinare
Asmodeus - Hiddukel, Takhisis
Calistria - Sargonnas
Cayden Cailean - Branchala, Reorx
Desna - Solinari
Erastil - Habbakuk
Gorum - Sargonnas
Gozreh - Habbakuk, Chislev
Iomedae - Kiri-Jolith, Paladine
Irori - Majere, Gilean
Lamashtu - Chislev
Nethys - Solinari,Lunitari, Nuitari
Norgorber - Hiddukel, Chemosh
Pharasma - Zivilyn
Rovagug - Sargonnas
Sarenrae - Mishakal, Sirrion, Paladine
Shelyn - Branchala
Torag - Reorx
Urgathoa - Chemosh
Zon Kuthon - Zeboim


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some analogues for the Scarred Lands

Abadar - Hedrada
Asmodeus - Chardun
Calistria - Idra, Sethris
Cayden Cailean - Hwyrrd
Desna - Syhana, Erias
Erastil - Tanil
Gorum - Vangal
Gozreh - Denev, Manawe
Iomedae - Corean, Madriel
Irori - Hedrada
Lamashtu - Khadum, Hinruuk
Nethys - Mesos
Norgorber - Belsameth, Drendari
Pharasma - Nemorga
Rovagug - Vangal, Khadum
Sarenrae - Madriel
Shelyn - Idra
Torag - Corean, Goran
Urgathoa - Otossal
Zon Kuthon - Gormoth


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Holy water is another option.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The feat arcane strike is another possibility.

A little bit of a stretch as it only says "treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" but incorporeal says they can be hit by "creatures that strike as magic weapons" which arcane strike on claws arguably is.

To get the prereq he could do rogue talent minor magic if he has a 10 int.

The end result would be swift action to claw incorporeals.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd suggest bumping up numbers of foes by 50% in general and giving solo encounters a boost by improving hp by 100% and allowing their attacks to affect multiple opponents (whirlwing attack or free great cleave for melee, single target magic becomes two targets or area of effect to get most of the party).

Add minion types to most solo fights to even out the action economy a little, there are a lot of solo fights.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some analogues for 4e

Abadar - Erastil
Asmodeus - Asmodeus
Calistria - Lolth, Tiamat
Cayden Cailean - Avandra
Desna - Avandra, Sehanine
Erastil - Pelor, Melora, Erathis
Gorum - Bane, Kord
Gozreh - Melora, Kord
Iomedae - Bahamut
Irori - Ioun
Lamashtu - Gruumsh, Melora
Nethys - Ioun, Correlon
Norgorber - Vecna, Sehanine, Zehir, Lolth
Pharasma - Raven Queen, Ioun
Rovagug - Gruumsh
Sarenrae - Pelor
Shelyn - Correlon
Torag - Moradin
Urgathoa - Vecna
Zon Kuthon - Torog


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some analogues for the Forgotten Realms

Abadar - Waukeen
Asmodeus - Bane
Calistria - Lolth, Shevarash
Cayden Cailean - Tymora
Desna - Selune, Shaundakul
Erastil - Chauntea
Gorum - Tempus, Uthgar
Gozreh - Silvanus
Iomedae - Torm, Siamorphe, Red Knight
Irori - Illmater
Lamashtu - Malar
Nethys - Mystra
Norgorber - Mask
Pharasma - Kelemvor
Rovagug - Gruumsh
Sarenrae - Lathander,
Shelyn - Sune, Liira
Torag - Moradin
Urgathoa - Yurtrus, Talona
Zon Kuthon - Loviatar


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So in my homebrew I like to have multiple pantheons for different areas including the Golarion one, the Greyhawk one, the Forgotten Realms one, the 4e one, Scarred Lands, Dragonlance, and various real world based ones and other fantasy pantheons. Sort of like how Hyperborea for Conan had different pantheons for different areas, sometimes with overlaps in gods or different portrayals of gods in different areas.

So I like to see connections and analogues between religions to create a situation like some Greeks saying the Egyptians call Demeter Isis and Hermes Thoth or the Romans just lifting most of the Olympians and giving them local names.

So suggestions on connections between the Golarion pantheon and other pantheons or how individual Golarion deities could be connected?

For instance:

Torag: Moradin (3e, 4e, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms), Hephaestus (Greek), Reorx (Dragonlance), Corean (Scarred Lands), Ptah (Egyptian).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
What are your favorite 3rd party rules supplements from the 3.0 and 3.5 eras? What parts of that product were best? What specific rule or mechanic saw the most use in your game (ie, spell, feat, magic item, piece of gear)?

3.5 alchemist and herbalist. I think that's third party.

I really liked how it expanded alchemy to such an extent that you could create whole quest-lines around alchemical elements without having to make up advance alchemy items.

I really like how it fleshed out the alchemy skill and added tons of interesting alchemical items.

Alchemy and Herabalists is from Bastion Press although half of their stuff is now found at DragonWing Games.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Conceptually I really like demons and lots of fiendish outsiders, but mechanically they often have a lot of stuff I dislike (SR, teleporting, summoning fellows).

Dark Fey are often interesting flavor creatures.

Brutes are lots of fun, big bruisers who can hit, hit hard, and take a lot of punishment, but are relatively easy to hit. Dire animals, giants, and magical beasties.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Paladin of Gorum.

The god of war empowers champions to stand bright on the field of battle amidst the hack and slash of combat. Like their patron, paladins of Gorum often appear in heavy armor and are supernaturally tough. To extend the hack and slash they are filled with self healing powers and mercies so they can take a beating and come back into the fray despite severe wounds.

Paladin without code and alignment restrictions, lose detect evil but their smite works on anyone just wihtou any heightening for fiends, undead or dragons.


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minoritarian wrote:
Pact Magic (don't have to miss it. thank you radiance house), Tome of Battle(don't have to miss it. thank you dreamscarred press), the environment books - particularly Sandstorm and Stormwrack. I'd really like Paizo to do some environment books, and not have them be limited to Golarion. (Though I do still want Oceans of Golarion more than any other book!)

Dunes of Desolation by Frog God Games for a desert terrain themed pathfinder book.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Didn't Mearls announce they would have an anouncement about licensing in 2015? So I wouldn't hold your breath expecting one anytime soon.


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Lincoln Hills wrote:
I wasn't privy to most of the 3.5 "additions" that are now proprietary, but I guess I'll say: scouts, soulknives, and the aforementioned monsters (plus kuo-toa, thri-kreen and yuan-ti. What is it with copyrighted monsters and hyphenation?)

Soulknives are open content. Most of the 3.0 and 3.5 psionics handbook books were released as open content (not the mindflayer or yuan-ti parts and not the complete psionic book).

You can see a pathfinderized version of soulknives in Dreamscarred Press' psionics book.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Warlock. Lots of problems with the class but I loved the at will blasting mage as a player option and as a straightforward quick magical NPC option. I wanted it to be OGL so people could work on better designed versions of it. I was also fond of the PHII at will druid shifting alternative and the charm focused caster from there as well.

The monsters, yes. Illithids, beholders, carrion crawlers, displacer beasts, and slaad in particular.

Gods. I wanted to see OGL stuff developed for the core pantheon. Paizo's as well. This goes for semi divine beings as well like Grazzt and two headed Demogorgon. Tome of Horrors got a lot and a ton of fiend lords are from mythology but there are a couple that are original and closed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Hoover wrote:

I asked about something similar in an old thread, though it focused more on the design of churches in Golarion. I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that a lot of towns in the setting had a single church, to a single deity, but then Polytheism was the thing.

I'm reminded though that most of the deities, in their write-ups, don't actually have big churches.

Cayden is worshipped in bars; Abadar in guildhouses; Erastil is praised in hunting lodges. It got me to thinking: why would there even be churches at all in Golarion?

But coming back to your central point I think the church thing ties in. If you don't need some central, sanctified place to worship your deities then that worship becomes at once more personal and more subdued. Imagine the life of Zeb the Younger (NG male human expert [woodsman] 1).

** spoiler omitted **...

In the starting town in the first Reign of Winter module there is only a single temple. It is dedicated to one god with a priest dedicated to that god but it includes shrines to multiple (but not all) gods.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Voadam wrote:

Paladin of Pharasma.

Undead are abominations that should be purged from existence. Boneyard paladins are empowered to detect, smite, and counteract the foulness of the undead.

They detect the evil of undead, smite them, lay on hands to counteract the damage of the undead or explode undead on contact. They are toughened to resist the powers of the undead (bonus on saves, immune to disease) and granted mercies to counteract their foul powers. The evil descriptor is so tied into undead creation that their smites work on evil descriptor outsiders, evil dragons, and evil creatures as well as a consequence, even though their divine mandate is focused on undead.

Remove the code, the alignment requirement, and the aura of good, and you are pretty good to go.

Warpriest or Inquisitor of Pharasma.

Warpriest gains Sacred Weapon, Blessings, Fervor, and channel.
Inquisitor gets Judements, Bane, and so on.

They both can smite via access to the Smite Abomination spell.

There is no need to modify the Paladin class when there are two classes that fill the same role.

You can be a warpriest or inquisitor of Iomedae or any god that is viable for paladins too, right?

Sarenrae as NG is one step for paladins, can have clerics, she has associations with the sun which makes her an approrpriate force of nature for druids and clerics, she can do it all.

The question asked was not whether paladins are necessary but whether neutral paladin types would fit in pathfinder.

I think thery can fit in lots of ways very well with very few changes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So there is a Christmas in July sale at rpgnow. 25% off over 19,000 pdfs.

Tons of pathfinder and OGL stuff including Dreamscarred Press, Kobold Press, Frog God Games, and others.

Just from the first page of the sale the all in one pdf compilation 3.5 adventure path War of the Burning Sky is a steal at $7.50.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Paladin of Pharasma.

Undead are abominations that should be purged from existence. Boneyard paladins are empowered to detect, smite, and counteract the foulness of the undead.

They detect the evil of undead, smite them, lay on hands to counteract the damage of the undead or explode undead on contact. They are toughened to resist the powers of the undead (bonus on saves, immune to disease) and granted mercies to counteract their foul powers. The evil descriptor is so tied into undead creation that their smites work on evil descriptor outsiders, evil dragons, and evil creatures as well as a consequence, even though their divine mandate is focused on undead.

Remove the code, the alignment requirement, and the aura of good, and you are pretty good to go.


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Secret Wizard wrote:

Lay on Hands is the big problem here though.

Smite represents the paladin's fervor for her beliefs. A TN paladin that stands for SCIENCE! could Smite Dogmatic, for example.

But Lay on Hands is the biggest offender.

For the Good paladin, Lay on Hands represents the altruistic "greater good" approach to their beliefs.

For the Evil paladin, Touch of Corruption represents the egoistic "power makes right" (not as catchy as "might" but more broad) approach to their beliefs.

What about the Neutral paladin? In which way could their beliefs manifest, if all they care is about ideals?

I propose that the Neutral paladin should have, instead of Lay on Hands or Touch of Corruption, something like this:

Surge of Inspiration (Su)
The Lawful/True/Chaotic Neutral paladin with Charisma 12 or greater can grant a target a vision of truth by touch. The target receives a +1d6 insight bonus on a single mental-based skill for one minute. A target can only have one Surge of Inspiration effect active at the time.

Then, it could get modifiers and feats - like for example, allowing a character to ignore negative ability bonus on that skill, affecting a second skill, making it a -1d6 penalty instead, granting the paladin a similar bonus at half-strength if used on others, affecting physical skills, etc.

Swift action self healing is is in theme for any paladin style divine martial champion IMO. It goes along with the bonus to saves as demonstrating they are supernaturally tough and difficult to put down.

Champions are weapons to be thrown at enemies to slog it out. Not glass cannons but divine bricks who can take a beating and still smite.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Classic gnosticism beliefs are that the overdeity is perfect spirit not observable by direct physical senses, a hidden truth at the center of reality, while the demiurge is closer to the false corrupt imperfect physical world.

So spirit, truth, good, and perfection type themes for the overdeity's associations while physicality and corruption for the demiurge. Lots of different ways to go in implementing those themes.

Overdeity could be Sun, Knowledge, Magic, Liberation, Law, and Good domains.

The demiurge could be trickery, Evil, Chaos, Artifice, Charm, and such.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KestrelZ wrote:

What makes a man turn neutral?

Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

In all seriousness, Homebrew it how you want, though the smite would be difficult to reconfigure for a true neutral paladin (perhaps you have to decide to smite one aligned faction and stay with that decision forever once chosen - i.e. if smite lawful is chosen, you can only smite lawful from that day on).

Instead of detect evil and smite evil/supersmite undead-outsider-dragon, you could just have smite without alignment restrictions.

They can now smite any single target but gain no extra bonuses on specific super bad guys.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
I don't see how you related it to alignment. Willfully committing an evil act makes you fall because of the code not because you suddenly changed alignment and no longer qualify for the class's alignment restriction.

Willfully committing an evil act makes you fall because it is willfully committing an evil act, not because of the code.

It is one of the three independent ways to fall: becoming not LG, wilfully commiting an evil act, or violating the code.

The part about falling due to committing a willful evil act is in the paladin's code section, so I do not follow your distinction.

I was picking it up under the ex paladins section where three things are listed as causing a fall, not being LG, willfully committing an evil act, and violating the code.

I see now that under the code the first two are part of the code as well but only willfully committing an evil act is called out there as causing a fall.

Odd that in the code only the willful act is called out for causing a fall and that in the ex paladin section they redundantly call out the LG and willful evil in addition to the code when they are also part of the code.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
If you are acting X alignment moreso than others, yes, your alignment is expected to eventually shift.

There are suggestions for this, but no actual mechanics for doing so.

These aren't even guidelines like CR or WBL, just suggestions of how to apply rule-0. Actions changing alignment has no rules, therefore it is not a rule. It's just a throwback to AD&D where half the mechanics explicit-ally told the player "the GM will figure out the specifics for his narrative".

Let's try examples. Let's say I am a LG fighter but I broke the law by lying to medieval Nazis, saying I didn't know where the innocents they wanted to murder were when I did. Even if the GM decides that I am CG now, that doesn't prevent me from still role-playing a LG character. It's just the GM trying to tell me how to role-play.

From the PRD:

Quote:

Changing Alignments

. . . In the end, the Game Master is the one who gets to decide if something's in accordance with its indicated alignment, based on the descriptions given previously and his own opinion and interpretation—the only thing the GM needs to strive for is to be consistent as to what constitutes the difference between alignments like chaotic neutral and chaotic evil. There's no hard and fast mechanic by which you can measure alignment—unlike hit points or skill ranks or Armor Class, alignment is solely a label the GM controls.

It's best to let players play their characters as they want. If a player is roleplaying in a way that you, as the GM, think doesn't fit his alignment, let him know that he's acting out of alignment and tell him why—but do so in a friendly manner. If a character wants to change his alignment, let him—in most cases, this should amount to little more than a change of personality, or in some cases, no change at all if the alignment change was more of an adjustment to more accurately summarize how a player, in your opinion, is portraying his character.

So its supposed to go as follows:

1 DM makes a judgment that someone is roleplaying in a way they think doesn't fit the stated alignment.

2 The DM tells the PC with an explanation of why.

3 If the PC wants to change their alignment the DM should let them.

I've had people argue to me that since it says "the Game Master is the one who gets to decide if something's in accordance with its indicated alignment" and "alignment is solely a label the GM controls" that 3 is not a PC choice to change under this section but a DM adjudication.

Once changed the LG roleplayed PC with a CG alignment will be hit by alignment mechanics as if he was CG.


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Marroar Gellantara wrote:
I don't see how you related it to alignment. Willfully committing an evil act makes you fall because of the code not because you suddenly changed alignment and no longer qualify for the class's alignment restriction.

Willfully committing an evil act makes you fall because it is willfully committing an evil act, not because of the code.

It is one of the three independent ways to fall: becoming not LG, wilfully commiting an evil act, or violating the code.


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Lord Twig wrote:


This has been said several times, but is not the case. The paladin is not letting someone die just so he doesn't break his code. He is letting them die because to break his code to save them would be more Evil. Basically it is impossible for a paladin to break his code for the greater Good because breaking the code would be worse than any Good it would create. This is the idea that "No Good can come from Evil actions."

Now you might decide that is not true in your world. But it could be true in others. And may, in fact, be true in default Pathfinder.

Breaking the code is not evil under the definitions I see in the CRB.

You could make a world where a paladin following the code is a ritual purity thing that creates a constant fountain generating [GOOD] in the cosmic balance and that a paladin breaking the code causes [EVIL] even though violating the code is not morally evil of itself. But that is not the stated case under the default rules and there is no reason to suspect that to be the case.

This wouldn't be "no good from evil" but "do the greater good."

That logic chain works for Aztec human sacrifice mythology as well. If sacrificing humans prevents the apocalypse then doing so is net good in the big picture and not the apparent evil it appears.


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Marroar Gellantara wrote:


Actions don't define your alignment. You do. Your motives and what your character is trying to achieve are far more important in determining their alignment than the actions they take.

I was going to argue this by pointing out the PRD definitions of good and evil, lawful and chaotic characters and how they all have statements of what actions they do.

But the first sentence of the alignment rules agree with you about alignment as being attitude focused.

Quote:

Alignment

A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment

As does the changing alignment section
Quote:
Alignment is a tool, a convenient shorthand you can use to summarize the general attitude of an NPC, region, religion, organization, monster, or even magic item.

The evil, good, law, and chaos descriptions as well as the individual alignment descriptions though are all a mix of attitudes and actions.

Whether attitudes or actions are more important in the end from how it is written is certainly debatable.


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The HD limit doesn't really solve most plot issues. Rarely is the secret evil villain a low level person with too few HD to show up on detect evil.


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Haladir wrote:
137ben wrote:
Haladir wrote:

champion of goodness and justice, like Sir Galahad from Arthurian legend.

It's a moot point anyways. The people with influence in the industry pretty clearly disagree with you. hence the continued long line of published non-LG paladins.

Haladir fails his will save...

With all due respect, I would disagree with that assertion as well.

Paladins do indeed have a Lawful Good alignment restriction in the published rules for Pahtfinder RPG, in both the rulebook and the Campaign Setting lines.

You're talking about homebrew and 3PP designs.

Obviously, there is some level of demand for "paladins" of various alignments. If you think that's a good match for your campaign and play style, then by all means use them! There are a plethora of different versions out there! Have fun!

You just won't be seeing them at my table.

Homebrew, 3PP, and the official pathfinder APG rulebook alternate class non-LG antipaladins.


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Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Voadam wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:


By that logic, everyone should murder their children at birth because it will send them somewhere better. Further if you do it at birth they're as innocent and pure as fresh snow. More you let them age, the less likely they are to go there.

Nah, in Pathfinder alignment is driven by actions. Innocent and not having done good or evil means neutral, not afterlife heaven-bound good.

Your babies are not angels. More like elementals or something.

Is there a plane of pure chaos?

Proteans live there.


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Thomas Long 175 wrote:


By that logic, everyone should murder their children at birth because it will send them somewhere better. Further if you do it at birth they're as innocent and pure as fresh snow. More you let them age, the less likely they are to go there.

Nah, in Pathfinder alignment is driven by actions. Innocent and not having done good or evil means neutral, not afterlife heaven-bound good.

Your babies are not angels. More like elementals or something.


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Fromper wrote:

So I checked Inner Sea Gods, and nothing jumped out at me. Who's the patron deity of foodies? Not gluttony, just appreciation of fine dining, much the way Cayden Cailean is the god of alcohol, but not drunkenness.

He's not the god of drunkenness?

He beat the Starstone challenge and his apotheosis occurred while blackout drunk!


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Plenty of adventurer appropriate options in the first two books.

Spoiler:
Book 1

Lonely widowed mom ranger and capable businesswoman.

Forlarren foreigner with a cold heart might want to worm her way into the heroes' confidences long term to be in position to eventually betray them or free her own heart.

Barbarian Sorcerer adversary with second thoughts now that she knows who killed her grand-dragon.

Air Maiden who is just with the bad guys for the rookery.

Book 2

Woodwife who lost her husband to a troll and wants a replacement.

Gate guard on the prowl for a mate.

Secret agent bath house woman with a heart and magical cleric mace of gold.

Chelaxian opera bard in need of rescuing.

Polyamorous relationship potential there as well.

Aloof dawn piper of the air looking for a fey affair?


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DrDeth wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

Exactly. In 3.5, you could follow the spirit of the code just fine. You only fell when you grossly violated the code. In Pathfinder, ANY violation means instant falling, and I think I've shown that it's very easy to have differing opinions on just what constitutes as a violation.

Well, since it's pretty hard to 'accidentally" WILLINGLY commit a evil act, it's very hard for a PF paladin to fall, without a stupid player or a DM out to screw paladins.

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

That's the ONLY part that sez you fall. Then there's this part:

"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

No where does it say you fall if you fail here.

Three paragraphs down in the PRD under Ex-Paladins:

Quote:


Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.

Pathfinder is stricter on the code than 3.5.


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I just read the product description and Endzeitgeist's review. So this is a collection of converted OGL monsters and a few new ones?

Is the barrow wight derived from the one in Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary? Anything else from PFB?

Do you have a list of the monsters in the book you are willing to post?

Do you have a list of the OGL sources things were converted from?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Renegadeshepherd wrote:


Assuming I have not overlooked some material and there is no literature on the matter.... What would you think that a "paladin of neautrality" would look like or have ability to do? Please discuss.

Paladin of the Green (Gozreh/The Green Faith):

These divinely powered champions of nature are empowered to fight the most extreme corrupters of the natural world: evil outsiders and undead. They are tasked with hunting them down and purging them, acting as divine antibodies of nature reacting to the invasion of unnaturalness that are fiends and undead.

They can detect these infections and smite them. They channel the living power of nature and are strengthened to resist the powers and infections of the unnatural.

Most often found arising in reaction to hordes of undead or fiends in the natural world, Paladins of the Green are most commonly found today among the shattered remnants of the Kellid tribes that were displaced by the Worldwound.

So, mechanically they are almost the same as core paladins except for their required alignment, code, and perhaps their own alignment aura.


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Sunderstone wrote:
Anyone using an iPad or tablet to read Tsar? Big PDFs sometimes get a tad slow on devices, I've been thinking about buying it (don't think I'll run it though).

On the Frog Gods site the pdf was over 300 mb when I went to download it.

It looks like it is listed as 83 mb on rpgnow so you might consider getting it there for the smaller file size.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As a DM I do male and female; straight, bi, and gay (the latter two particularly in Pathfinder APs); and whatever ethnicities are in the setting I'm using.

As a player I generally stick to my own gender, orientation, and (when playing human) race. Ethnicity within race I vary and match without much consideration.

I've done generic asian in an AD&D Oriental Adventures game and a tiefling I played was anime style asian but thats been pretty much it for playing a human (or close to human) that is not basically white.

That I can remember I've played generic white, fantasy viking, fantasy arab, hispanic, and polish. I'm not hispanic or polish.


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FanaticRat wrote:
I've been reading up on them more and they seem cool; I've always been a fan of psychic powers in fiction anyway. How often do people use them, if ever?

In the last Pathfinder campaign I played in I was a soulknife.

I really like the on/off mechanics and resource management choices of psionic focus and vital strike.

I allow them in my game but nobody has used it.

I used psionic monsters of various sorts from various editions of d20 and various psionic variants in my games as a DM. Statted out psions never showed up though. I mostly used predone stat block opponents and there are very few ready to go statblocks for psionic classed opponents. Also referencing psion powers solely by name is not nearly as easy for me to remember and use as the core spells on NPC spell lists or SLA lists.

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