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Cavall wrote:

I no longer understand what you want from this thread. This is a thread a out treating items as weapons. One aspect is about making them enchanted. You listed a tankard item as a way of being enchanted (which was proven to no longer be improvised.)

What is it you want from this thread? What is you are looking to get out of it?

I obviously understand money is a factor. But that's not a factor in the FAQ. So it becomes moot.

What is it you want from this thread then? And guy, I'm not trying to belittle you or be hostile. I'm just massively confused as to what you want to be shown or proven here.

Anyways, I think my stance is clear. They are not "weapons" for most feats abilities and enchants. Outlier examples exists. But those are specific examples that trump the general rule of no.

I want people to stop making assumption.

I want people to pick up the rulebook and say "Hey, the book doesn't say anything about this and that which I took for granted the whole time"

I want people to think outside the box that doesn't exist.

I want people to understand the rules as written instead of as believed.

I want people to open their minds to new ways of thinking.

There will always be difference of opinion. And that is okay. But if someone says something that conflict with your views. Challenge them by citing rules and using specific example found in pathfinder materials, not with more assumptions. Open your mind to the possibly that the other view may be correct.

Specific trumping general is an assumption. If you can not back it up with written rules.

Someone made the fighting Tankard. Someone who understands the the rules far better then I do. This item was tested by other experts who knows the the rules better then I do. Pathfinder experts approved this item and printed it.

Perhaps this whole time the idea that improvised weapons are weapons and can be enchanted as weapon is not new. And the pathfinder experts know that improvised weapons are weapons, but feel no need to write it out as they already written the rules and it is up to you to read them carefully and understand what they really mean.

The Pathfinder experts do not need to spell things out for you. They need not address every little thing written. They need not teach you to read, problem solve or come to a logically reason based on the rules written out for you.

They rewrote and added to a set of rules that already exist. It is up to us to read the book to find the rules that support or conflict with an idea, not the Pathfinder experts.

What I want is for people to think and then act, instead of feeling and reacting.

The things I want are simple things really. Simple, but not easy thing.

Some of you will react to my comment and respond with strong feelings.
I can only hope that there will a few who that will stop for a moment to think, then act.

This will be my last post for a while as I let folk find the answer for themselves.

Have a wonderful day.


TrinitysEnd wrote:

I never said you did or didn't. You are assuming. Also, you never responded to what I said.

Also, refusing to listen to the rules of Pathfinder that state the rules for your situation, but then asking us to prove it is rather unproductive. It's like asking how 1+1=2 and then refusing the rules of math on how 1+1=2 by saying that you are afraid it will cause a large discussion... which you are asking for.

The rules have been stated about Specific trumping general. Either ask for homerules or follow the rules?

Where does it say in the the rulebook that Specific trumping general? I have not seen it yet.

Vince Frost wrote:

A Paizo answer would be for the best.

I am not a official source. Please do not expect me to act or respond like one. I am new to Pathfinder, less then 6 months and only played 3 games.

But as I read the rules and read the treads on the websites. I am finding there is a big difference between RAW and people assumptions.

I can at least cite the Rule-books. I can not cite someones assumptions.


Cavall wrote:

Exactly..

It can't be made flaming. Modify it to have weapons (that are, in fact enchanted separately) and the spikes can be enchanted.

In other words, no longer an improvised weapon. Spikes can be. You must make it a weapon to enchant.

And there's your answer. You yourself modify it to make it a weapon. Nothing else allows it.

I think you got the wrong idea.

In pathfinder, money is limited. I would not bother enchanting most improvised weapons. Only weapons that will be used in battle.

I much rather have a War hammer over a normal hammer. It does not matter if the rules are okay if I can enchant both the same way. I will plan and spend to improve the Superior item.

If for some reason money become a non issue in pathfinder, then maybe I do want a frying pan with flaming on it to get my steak with a nice seared finished and bash any orc that dares to interrupt my cooking.


Cavall wrote:
Can you make the breastplate a flaming burst weapon?

I would if It had armor spikes and they had flaming on it.


SlimGauge wrote:

Ok, so you won't discuss "is" vs "functions as" and won't discuss "specific beats general", yet you claim to be "here only to discuss and state facts of Pathfinder".

I think there's nothing left to discuss until Paizo sets us straight.

A Paizo answer would be for the best.

I am not a official source. Please do not expect me to act or respond like one. I am new to Pathfinder, less then 6 months and only played 3 games.

But as I read the rules and read the treads on the websites. I am finding there is a big difference between RAW and people assumptions.

I can at least cite the Rule-books. I can not cite someones assumptions.


Mikko Kallio wrote:

Regarding the aforementioned tankard, "X functions as Y" is a very common phrase in Pathfinder. We use it to indicate that any and all rules that apply to X also apply to Y. If there are any exceptions or conditions, they are listed in the item/spell/etc. entry. If none are listed, X and Y are functionally identical.

One of the core principles of D20 rules design is "specific beats general". In this case, the specific ("functions as +1 light hammer") overrides the general assumption ("a tankard is an improvised weapon") because a +1 light hammer is not an improvised weapon. You don't get to pick and choose in what ways X function as Y; you get all the properties unless exceptions are mentioned.

The "specific beats general" line is dangerous and I am not willing to talk about it. There is was a storm going on 2WF and 2HW about "specific beats general" that makes this discussion looks like a calm, polite British tea party.

Not touching the "specific beats general" line. No thank you.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

So if I can't enchant my mithril waffle iron as a weapon, can I at least commission a +1 Mithril Longhammer that I can use to make waffles with when I'm not hitting people with it?

It seems like the answer is obviously "yes" though the blacksmith might think you're daft. The problem with improvised weapons as I see it is mostly that they're not really balanced/sharpened/reinforced etc. to be weapons. It seems like if you smash up a chair and just grab a big piece you're going to end up with an improvised weapon, but if you break up a chair deliberately and select a big piece and you sand it down, you can have a club no problem.

I would image that the -4 to attack rolls on using improvised weapons cover the balanced part, while HP and hardness is cover by the object material and thickness for reinforcement. As for sharpness, not all weapons have edges, there are blunts weapons.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:

What is a heavy mace? It's a heavy metal weight mounted on a pole or handle.

Or are you questioning the "heavy" part? For the weapon profiles, the Heavy Mace is the one that has a longer handle so you can use it with two hands instead of one. So it's a bigger frying pan than some, a good size frying pan to cook breakfast for the entire party. If you go this route, flaming would be a very fitting special quality.

I'm questioning the +1 part as it is a magic +1. Not Frying Pan to Heavy Mace.

How are you getting a non-magic Mithril Frying Pan to a magic +1 Heavy Mace?


Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Sure, it's a steel tankard, not a light hammer, but it isn't improvised if you use it as a +1 light hammer.

So you want your Mithril Frying Pan to function as a +1 Heavy Mace, you can do that. That said, it's not an improvised weapon if it's a +1 Heavy Mace....

How does one use a Mithril Frying Pan as a +1 Heavy Mace?


TrinitysEnd wrote:

I never said what he said was RAW. But he does have insight into the system. All of the Devs have stated that anything posted in that thread is not strictly rules correct, but having a Dev weigh in does help at times. So what I posted is not RAW or RAI, but it is insight into it.

Furthermore, I had asked this once before and the general consensus was that I was being semantic and that Improvised Weapons are not weapons and do not count for anything where you need a weapon.

As for your Fighting Tankard, it's a special exception. It's where it functions as a Light Hammer, meaning for all intents and purposes by the rules it attacks like and damages like a light hammer, even though it is a Mug. For all intents and rulings, this could be written as "This Light Hammer looks and also functions as a tankard."

I haven't made any claim about you.

I find it interesting that some people seem to think I am trying to argue with them.
I am not. I am here only to discuss and state facts of Pathfinder.


I just read up on Mark Seifter.

He does work for Paizo and is on the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game design team.

But his credited works are for Familiar Folio, Monster Codex and Occult Adventures Playtest.

I find him to be a excellent source of information and one we should listen to, but not to take his word as law. He is not an expert in weapons, magic or magic weapons.

Perhaps he is unaware of the existence of the Fighting Tankard.


As I stated from the description before.
A Fighting Tankard says "This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer."

'Functions as' does not mean 'is' a +1 light hammer. It is a steel tankard, not a light hammer.

I will not wordplay with the word "Is" and words "Functions as".


Cavall wrote:

You believe that but that doesnt make it correct. Not all classes get light hammer. Worship allows this holy symbol to give profiency. But you can't gain that on improvised. At best there's a feat saying you can take the penalties away but it doesn't grant proficiency. For a reason.

This is a light hammer. Not an improvised weapon. Just as a scythe is improvised unless you're using one made as a weapon.

I am sensing some hostility here. I am not attacking anyone. I am merely talking. I am not saying anyone is correct or not.

I am just restating what the description of Fighting Tankard says and what it could mean.

Didn't know restating a description and discussing what it could mean, was offensive in some way.

Let's discuss the topic, not argue.


Cavall wrote:

A big clue is how not only is it a light hammer, you can gain proficiency in it. A rare event for an improvised weapon to have proficiency in light hammers tobweild it.

The example, if anything, proves the opposite of improvised becoming weapons.

The description of Fighting Tankard says "Worshipers of a god of drinking or luck are automatically proficient with it." I believe this means proficient with just Fighting Tankard.


SlimGauge wrote:
Ah, but THIS ONE is, because it was made that way.

Yes, from a steel tankard.

Which is what again? A metal mug I think.

If I used a non-magic steel tankard. What kind of weapon would it be?

I can't seem to find it in the weapon table anywhere.


True. It does not say "Improvised Weapon".

It says "steel tankard". An item that is not normally a weapon.


Fighting Tankard:

Price 10,301 gp; Slot none; CL 10th; Weight 2 lbs.; Aura moderate conjuration

DESCRIPTION

This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer.

Worshipers of a god of drinking or luck are automatically proficient with it. The interior of the tankard contains six identical extradimensional spaces. Each space can hold 1 dose of a different potable liquid of up to 1/2 cubic foot in volume (including potions, but not poisons). Liquid never sloshes out of the these spaces accidentally (though it often appears ready to do so), and when the wielder drinks from the tankard, it provides the drink from the desired extradimensional pocket (or a random pocket, if the wielder has no preference).

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Cost 5,301 gp; Feats Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item; Spells secret chest

It says "This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer." It is not however a light hammer.


Did I stop all discussion in this tread?

Sorry for being a buzz killer.


I don't know if this was mentioned yet. But there is already an improvised magic weapon in the game.

It's called a Fighting Tankard.

Just my 2cp.


Hold vs carry is not going to be answered.

You can carry items in many forms. In a bag, sheath, belt pouch, arms, bandoleer and of course, hands.

But there are every few ways to hold items. Two Hands are the only places on an average human.

Carry is not the same as holding. But holding is the same as carry.

I guess this is a word definition issue. Is carrying an item in your hand any different then holding an item in your hand?

I say no. You must do both. You must be able to wrap your finger around an item in order order to hold or carry. The two word are very similar. But in terms of hands. You're doing both.

Anything else is just word play.

Thank You for your all the help.


Wow. That's quite a list there. I meant shield and weapon hybrid.
But, um, I think I'm good now. Thank you.


Let me be even more specific. Would Rod of absorption work in the light shield hand while the wand in the other hand?
The rod only needs to be held. No action required.


Now it makes perfect sense!

THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH!

Are there any other hybrid items in pathfinder?


Is a Klar designed as a weapon so much it is a one handed martial weapon/shield?

A hybrid item?


Wands, rods and other magic items often state "Hold it in hand" to function.

Lets use wand of enlarge person and Rod of absorption as our magic 2 items for this tread.

I have a light shield as well. It states: A light steel shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

In this Context, would the "carry other items in that hand" be any different then "Hold it in hand"?


Could someone please tell me the difference?


Why is this hard for me? I not sure. It seems to me that a klar could be a kind a double weapon. The blade that is a martial weapon, and light shield which can also be used as a weapon; just like any other light shield could be.

I understand attacking with blade loses the shield AC. Very much like a shield bash, however attacking with the blade is not a shield bash, it is an attack with a martial weapon.

Maybe I should look at it differently.
Attack means weapon. It I use the klar as the one handed martial weapon it always was.
AC means shield. Something the klar can be treated as.

I can only attack with the klars as a weapon, never as a shield, because klars are martial weapons at all times.

I can not shield bash with a klar because it is a martial weapon. It is only treated as a shield.

Here is where I get confused again.
How can I use improved shield bash and not shield bash with the Klar in the first place?

I am stuck in a loop and I can't get out. Feels like being asked to sit in the corner of a round room.

Can someone please help me understand this?


To kadance, those are very nice weapons that provide Shield bonus to AC. I had no idea there were weapons like these.

And you are right. I am look for other items that count as shields or armor.
I noticed that Klars are weapons that count as a light shield.

The mess I made out of the tread is based on that I can't understand how shields are weapons and how a klar is a weapon that counts as a shield.

I now know that everything in the game can be a weapon thanks to Improvised weapon rules.

I know when using a shield to attack is a shield bash and counts as a martial weapon while doing so. The Improvised weapons rule lets me use any shield as a weapon, while the shield bash rule lets me treat light and heavy shields as martial weapons instead of Improvised weapon.

Klars are unique. They are already martial weapons, but also counts as a light shield. Not light shield that acts like a martial weapon when using shield bash.


Please try to stay on topic and not bring in subjects that are simply not relevant to the thread.

Is it really so unreasonable to ask that we stick to pathfinder rules to get a pathfinder answer?

It seems to be the case currently. I hope you all have a wonderful day.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Nothing says a 1st level barbarian can't cast wish.

Yes there are. One can only cast wish if they able to cast level 9 spells.

Using UMD skill and a wish scroll a 1st level barbarian could attempt to cast wish.

But this line of reasoning is nonconstructive and is not relevant to my question, which is:

Using the rules found in pathfinder, can anyone please tell me why using a wand while it is in the same hand as a light shield would not work?

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nothing prevents it but nothing allows it either. Making it a legitimate DM's call.

If a GM rules against the written rules without a good reason they are not a good GM.

Again, this line of reasoning is nonconstructive and is not relevant to my question, which is:

Using the rules found in pathfinder, can anyone please tell me why using a wand while it is in the same hand as a light shield would not work?


I do believe I am right.

But I do not know if I am 100% right.

I am not here for advice. This is not the advice messageboard.

This is the rules questions messageboard.

My question it about the rules of pathfinder.

The question I am asking right at this very moment is:

Are there any rules in Pathfinder that prevent me from using a wand while it is in the same hand of a light shield?

I have repeated myself many times now. That is correct.

But I have also not gone off topic. Others have.

Am I asking to much to get a pathfinder rule answer to a pathfinder rule question while on a messageboard for pathfinder rules and questions?
I hope not.

I will repeat the question again, but in a slightly different way:
Using the rules found in pathfinder, can anyone please tell me why using a wand while it is in the same hand of a light shield would not work?


Very well I stand corrected.

As far as standard action are concern, is there anything to stop me from using a magic wand while it is in a light shield hand?


To use a magic wand, I need it in my hand.

To use a long sword, I need it in my hand.

To use a light shield, I need it in my hand.

The light shield lets me hold a magic wand in my hand.

I now have a magic wand and a light shield on 1 hand and a long sword in the other hand.

I can attack with the long sword as a standard action. Because it is in my hand.

I can attack with the light shield as a standard action. Because it is in my hand.

I can use the magic wand as a standard action. Because it is in my hand.

Standard actions do not care how many items are in my 2 hands. But to use any of the 3 items (magic wand, long sword, light shield) they must be in my hand to use as a standard action.

The light shield lets me hold the magic wand in the same hand it is in.

I have a wand and light shield on 1 hand, and the long sword in the other.

Having 3 items in this way does not prevent me from using standard actions.

What is the PROBLEM?

There are no game rule saying I can not do this.

I am not here to talk about all the words that exist.
I am not here to talk about real life mechanics.

I am here to talk about If there any Pathfinder rules or mechanics that say I can not do this.


Hate to say this to you, but Wikipedia is not a pathfinder book or material.

I am not asking for the definition of category error.

Using a Pathfinder book or material only "what is a category error?"
Then please cite it so I can look it up for myself.

If you can't tell me, then do not use the term "category error" as it does not the apply to pathfinder rules.


In a Pathfinder book or material, show me where I find "category" or "category error.

Using a wand in a light shield hand is not pinned or completely restrained.

I am not jabbing the wand in somebody's eye. The wand can act like a weapon, but is not being used as a weapon.

It is being used as a magic item.

This is how you activate a the magic item 'wand':

Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

Which Pathfinder rule is being broken.

Be specific please.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

"I can use standard action with hand fulls" is a catagory error assuming that because one member of a catagory of standard actions can be done with full hands that all of them can. Bats can fly. Bats are mammals. So all mammals can fly. The logic doesn't follow.

Even IF the logic followed, that does not preclude the existence of other, equally logical arguments going the other way against the position.

What are you talking about?

What is a "catagory error"? I haven't hear or read anything in Pahtfinder about "catagory".

It is a Standard action to cast from wand. This includes pointing a wand and using the UMD skill all at once. Point a wand is not an independent action of casting the wand, it is part of many little actions that forms the standard action of casting from the wand.

What is unclear?

What a Standard action is?
Most of the common actions characters take, aside from movement, fall into the realm of standard actions. This includes Melee Attacks, Ranged Attacks, Natural Attacks, Activating Magic Item, Casting a Spell and Using a Special Ability.

Using Standard action when my hands are full? Some Standard action require me to have items in my hand to use. Bow for Ranged Attacks. A sword for Melee Attacks, and wand to Activate a Magic Item.

The Standard action of Activating a wand?

Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.


Pointing a wand is part of the standard action of casting from a wand.

I can use standard actions with hand fulls.

I must have a wand in my hand to cast a spell from that wand that also in my light shield hand.

I can cast the spell from my wand that is in my light shield hand as a standard action to cast the spell from my wand that is in my light shield hand.

I am pretty sure I have all rules covered.

It is a Standard action to cast from wand. This includes pointing a wand and using the UMD skill all at once. Point a wand is not an independent action of casting the wand, it is part of many little actions that forms the standard action of casting from the wand.

Which part is unclear?


How is a wand used?
A standard action to cast from wand.
To cast, wand must be in hand.
I use the UMD skill to use a wand.

Do I need a free hand to the UMD skill?
No, I do not. The parts of the UMD skill on using a wand is:
Wand must be in hand.
Roll UDM with with the wand when I cast from it. A standard action.

Standard actions are not directly connected to hands.

Is there anything I missed?

If not then the answer to:

3)Can I use a wand in a light shield hand?

Will be Yes, because:
I can hold the wand with the light shield hand.
I can use the UMD skill with my hands full.
I can use Standard actions with my hands full.


.... I think things are getting a little off track.

I believe Hands of effort applies only to TWF and off hands.

A wand is not being used in TWF. I do not use my Full BAB on casting with a wand. Do I?

I think this is more on the casting, free hands and holding items line.

Lets start from the top.

1)Do I gain the benefits of a Rod of Absorption while it is in a light shield hand?

I say Yes. Light shield lets me hold items in my hand. Rod of Absorption works while held in my hand and has no other conditions. I know I can't attack with a rod as a light mace, because the light shield says I can hold items and can not attack with a weapon.

2)Can I hold a wand in a light shield hand?

Yes again. I confirmed that light shield lets you hold items.

Here is where things get gray...

3)Can I use a wand in a light shield hand?

I know that I can not cast spells with a light shield hand.
The light shield hand is not a free hand, like gauntlets.
I can not attack with any weapon with light shield hand.

What we have for sure is we can hold items. Like wands, rods, greatsword, etc. That is 100%.

It is true it doesn't say use any item, just hold items.


Sah wrote:

Okay, so a clear rule that may not encompass everything, is that if it's on the weapons chart it is 100% a weapon, that's why it's on the chart. Even if it may also be something else (for instance, not using shield as an example, the gnomish battle ladder is a weapon, it is also a ladder) it is a weapon.

Improvised weapons are not categorized because as we know practically any object could be used as one.

Yes, it really does. It's clear and I love it.

As for not being able to enchant Improvised weapons as magic weapons. I am not so sure about that... There is the CAILEAN FIGHTING TANKARD.

But can we put this part on hold please? I need to get to masterwork, before any kind of magic item.

I would like to talk about shields and armor first.

There isn't any Improvised armor or shield rule is there?

Please, please tell me there no way that a short sword can give me AC or a monk outfit to act like Full plate without the use of feats and magic.
I don't think I can wrap my mind around the idea.

Anything listed in shield and armor is 100% shield or armor. Right?

Is there anything out there that is a shield or armor but not listed as shield or armor without the use of feats and magic?


Upsetting Shield Style is good.

And have already been talked about.

Have anyone read the whole tread yet?

This has all been done already.

I don't like repeating myself.


Koi Eokei wrote:
A light shield is a light weapon. It's in your hand, you can't use a wand in the same hand as a short sword could you?

I don't know what you're trying to say. You can hold items and weapons in a light shield hand. What does a short sword have anything to do with my question?

Light shield description in the Core Rulebook on page 152, clearly states:

You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

This means I can hold a wand with a light shield hand.
Does anyone disagree?

Click on "Wands" for more info.

Wands are not are not light, one-handed, or two-handed weapons.
Does anyone disagree?

Wands are spell trigger items.
Does anyone disagree?

Using Spell trigger Items does not mean attacking with a weapon.
Does anyone disagree?


I have asked for 4 questions in the beginning and I have answered them later on.

Here is what I got so far:

1)Could I hold a Rod of Absorption and gain all the benefits of the Rod and Shield?

Yes, a light shield’s state you can carry other items in that hand and a Rod of Absorption must only be held in hand to function.
Please note that some rods may have other conditions to active and no rod may be used as a light mace while in light shield hand.

2)Can I use Wands with a light shield hand?

Yes, a wand is a spell trigger item and spell triggers do not need gestures to function. A wand only needs are to be pointed in the general direction of the target or area and be held in hand.

3)If yes to 2, would I lose the shield AC?

No, Pointing a wand in the general direction of the target or area is a free action. Please note that a GM may place a reasonable limit on free actions.

All question but 3 is flawless in term of rules and references. They are all explained in earlier posts on this tread.


That is good information about grips. It has been discussed already.

I do not under the hostility. Answers should be supported by the rules of the game and cited to confirm those rules.

How is asking for this somehow unreasonable?

If there was any part that could be considered offensive would be "If one is unwilling or unable to provide references, citation or any binding/official information on interpretations of the rules. Then one may need to rethink their views".

This was my poor attempt at saying, "I would like some facts and rules to support what you say. If you can not do so, how can you be sure what you say is true?"


Sigh, I sorry as well. I can be difficult at times. This klar thing has me very confused.

At the moment I am going step by step to understand how a klars works.

I am starting with weapons.

What is a weapon? Can anyone tell me? I thought it was anything listed in a weapon table was a weapon and that was it.

Then after researching on the klar. I came across many rules that got thinking. Is a shield a weapon? Yes/No? I don't know anymore.

I have to define weapon first be before I can go on knowing what a shield is. I must have my information cited to be 100% sure.

My very minor case of OCD is now in overdrive and I can't stop until I come to a logical conclusion, a solid answer. An answers that is logical sound and pathfinder legally binding.

If someone said " Shield are not weapons" I want to be able to come back on here and a have a fully form explanation complete with notes and references. So I can say "Shields are weapons because of the following rules" and not "Because I say it's a weapon, end of story."

Because "I say so" is far too arbitrary for my taste.

So here we are. What is a weapon? Do Improvised Weapon rules make almost anything a weapon? There are feats like Improvised Weapon Mastery that act a lot like weapon proficiency.


I have dismiss nothing. I have not claim anything to be worthless.

The core rulebook is over 500 pages long and I haven't grasp this one book yet. I do not know if there is no information on the subject of a wand in a light hand shield yet. I know this on the subject:

One can hold items in a light shield hand.

I can not wield a weapon in a light shield hand.
Wands do not count as light, one-handed, or two-handed weapons.

Wands are spell trigger Items.

Wands can not be quickdraw with the quickdraw feat.

To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

I have mentioned all of these and more in my earlier post on this tread.
I have provided references each time.

I fail to see how slashing grace has anything with wands in a light shield hand.

If you have a problem with me asking for logic, references, citation or any binding/official information on a Rules Question tread. Then ask yourself this:
What is the point of a Rules Question tread if I can't ask for the information I need to make a informed decision or conclusion?


Not once did I mention enchanting an Improvised Weapon.

I stated everything thing is a weapon because it can be, at the very least, an Improvised Weapon.

One could say, Anything that could be built can also act as a weapon.

Do you see any fault in what I say?

Feel free to the read the post I made earlier and quote me "enchanting an Improvised Weapon".

I am now trying to understand one of the fundamental aspect of the game. One that I took for granted. I am trying to define what a weapon really is. I thought everything listed in a weapon table was a weapon. That's it, end of story.

This may not be the case. My perceptive is upside down, and I can't find solid ground to place my feet.

I am going back to basics. What is a weapon? With the description of Improvised Weapon. Just about everything in the game can be one.


To Sah,
Please read my 2 posts from earlier today, April, 16, 2017. I am now say everything thing is a a weapon. A shield, a sword, a fist, a tail, a battering ram, a torch, etc.


Ascalaphus wrote:
A light shield does seem to count as occupying a hand - you can't use Slashing Grace with if for example. It's not totally occupied so you can still hold an object, but complex use of an object is probably what you need a buckler for. A buckler occupies your hand so little that you can't even shield bash with it.

While everyone may have an opinion, I am looking for references, citation or any binding/official information. That's why I am on Rule/Question and not on Advice or Discussion. The better answer will be RAW, not opinions.

If one is unwilling or unable to provide references, citation or any binding/official information on interpretations of the rules. Then one may need to rethink their views.

After saying that. What is there that is complex?
Wands are Spell Trigger items. A Wand only needs are to be pointed in the general direction of the target or area and be held in hand.

Spell Trigger:
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Here is a some food for thought that illustrates the strong connection between Improvised weapons and simple weapons.
How does one get a Club?
Can one buy a club?
Page 142, Core Rulebook, in simple weapon table, club. There is no price. There is no weapon description in Core Rulebook.
Page 25 of Ultimate Equipment,
Club: This weapon is usually just a shaped piece of wood, sometimes with a few nails or studs embedded in it.

Possible ways to get a Club:
Clubs are free and anyone can go to a shop and take as many clubs as one can carry.

Clubs are sold at shops. But prices of a club is an unknown variable.

One must find a club.

One must make a club.

One must improvised an item to be a club in some fashion. If so, a club is an improvised simple weapon. As in an item is being improvise to act in every way as a club; a simple weapon.


A table leg can be modified to be a club.

Here is how it's done: Page 92, Core Rulebook.

Craft:
All crafts require artisan’s tools to give the best chance
of success. If improvised tools are used, the check is made
with a –2 penalty. On the other hand, masterwork artisan’s
tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus on the check.
To determine how much time and money it takes to
make an item, follow these steps.
1. Find the item’s price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the item’s DC from Table 4–4.
3. Pay 1/3 of the item’s price for the raw material cost.
4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one
week’s worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply
your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC
equals the price of the item in sp, then you have
completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals
double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces,
then you’ve completed the task in one-half or onethird
of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce
the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC
doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress
you’ve made this week. Record the result and make
a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you
make more progress until your total reaches the price
of the item in silver pieces.

Making a Club:
1.Zero sp, round to 1 for math's sake.
2.DC 12, simple weapon
3.1/3 of 1 is 1/3. Round to 1 for math's sake again.
4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work: Roll a 12. Check 12. Check 12 to DC 12 =success

If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC: 12 times 12 is 144.

If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. 144 to 1. Club completed.

(If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or onethird of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) 144 is 144 times greater then 1. Job completed in 144th of a week.
I AM NOT DOING THE MATH.

Table leg is now a Club and it took much less time then a week.

There is little difference between a Table leg and a club. They would have the same damage, critical threat and critical modifier. The only different that a Table leg is an Improvised Weapon and a club is a simple weapon.

Same logic applies to a Quarterstaff. No price, is a simple piece of wood, about 5 feet in length. A pole is 10ft long; break it in half, you now have 2 Quarterstaff. No craft check needed.

You can not buy an unarmed strike. Yet it is a simple weapon and listed in the weapon table because it is most likely to be used in combat and not a Improvised Weapon.

Can I attack with a torch? Yes, as an Improvised Weapon. See torch on page 157 of the Core Rulebook.

Torch:
A torch burns for 1 hour, shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius and increasing the light level by one step for an additional 20 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A torch does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.

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