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Erdrinneir Vonnarc

Vexous's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 73 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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It really all depends doesn't it? Are you and your table playing the game, or the system?

If you're all interested in the story than of course it can work. The old Baldur's Gate video games are a perfect example of a story along those lines. One mythic character surrounded by a party of regular Joes. Although the gameplay wasn't anywhere near what we have with mythic the storyline certainly was.

If you're worried about balance and adhering to the module as written, well, you're hosed. No, its not gonna work. Most likely the other players are going to wonder why they don't have those shiny godlike powers long before the many other problems of "balance" crop up.


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I'll bet Manu Baba knew all about fiend spawns and Iomedae. Guy wrote a thorough review, you just know HE knew the answer. Well, if he wasn't busy getting someones love back anyway. After all, he promised.....


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wow. Not only is the review a spammer, but he only gave the book a one! Those spammers can be brutal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

First want to thank Paizo for letting me know about this product, it really looks great. That said, you guys lost a sale since you had no hard copy to go with it. I went to the Adventure site and bought from there. Why? I like hardcopy and really didn't want to pay 50bucks for simple data.

Sales for stuff like this is obviously good for both of you. Maybe Paizo can offer a hardback combo deal as well? If you had I'd have bought here and not over there. Just sayin'.


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They've teased us with Sorshen for years. We know where she sleeps, we know she was mythic, and we know she needs a beat down. Time to do it.

Mythically.


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Bought this last night, only paged through the pdf so far but it looks like it has promise. As always, diceless isn't for everyone but this seems to be making a good run for that type of system. Lots of potential to take the stairway environment in a lot of different directions as well. Good luck with this guys.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just off hand I'd say raise his initiative. That said, with his dual argumentative nature I'm not sure that's appropriate from an RP sense, although certainly good gamewise.

Either way, since I'm running a Savage Tide game after Wrath is done I have to say, good timing on this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, America is rich. The problem is that the largest percentage of wealth is in the hands of about 1% of the population. Yes, that's a One. Sure as a country we have bucks, and the mega-rich use them while the rest of us, well, we just use the backdoor servant entrance...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some good advice in this thread so far not just for the OP but really any new DM, take it to heart. That said I'll limit own advice.

First off, 'i bet these clerics don't have combat reflexes, so...., isn't a case of metagaming, its combat savvy that comes from playing, you should congratulate them on this. Guys a cleric, he's wise but not dexterous, probably, good bet to do just what your player did there. Now if the player starts quoting stats like he's read the module, yeah theres your metagaming.

Second, and this is freakn huge, keep your frustrations to a minimum and don't turn the game into a DM Vs. PCs match. You will always win, until you become known as a killer DM, after which you will always be alone.

Honestly, this probably isn't the best series for a first timer with a group of powergamers. Possibly not even a good group for you to be DM'ing at all since you seem to be worried about telling the story rather than simply rolling empty dice, although your sorc sounds like she has the right idea, maybe not the best mechanics though. That's a good thing to have on your part as a DM, story first, mechanics later. Keep following that and you'll come out fine. This is after all a roleplaying game.

Oh, and uh, +6 on demons eh? Uh-huh. You trust this guy do you? I see. I'd probably give that one a good look. Stuff like that is just gonna get worse later on....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The thing is, I've subbed since back in Shattered Star. Never had a problem until Wrath. Every book so far has been delayed with this AP though. Meanwhile some people seem to get it on time regardless of having a sidecart full or empty. Its like they have two lists, those we take care of, and those we....well.....the other people.

Seems like they have an expanding infrastructure and those two goblins they keep chained up in the warehouse just aren't keeping up anymore. Time to expand guys. Or at least buy those two a sammich or sumthin.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Same here with waiting on the download, still. Kind of a bad business design. I try to support Paizo, rather than buy elsewhere that actually would have been cheaper. In return I get dumped into a line with no end in sight because of things in my sidecart.

At least kick us a download.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Fall-From-Grace from the old Planescape Torment game is the first and as far as I know the only demon to ever change her stripes. Back in 1st/2nd edition anyway. Her origin was an extremely good reason to have her do so. With Arue you actually have divine intervention.

I don't see Nocticula being a former empyreal as a problem, but I'd be a tad skeptical as to her actually seeking redemption. Goddess of outcasts, artists, and the glories of midnight? Seriously? She wants to be the Goth's new goddess does she? Sounds fishy to me, or worse, like some kind of Twilight thing. When you add to all this the fact she has a known brother who makes regular visits to his "loving" sister things become even more unclear. Is he in on the redemption gig too? Who else, the maid, the gardener, Shamira?

All of this is of course my opinion, but, did anyone else notice the only thing said about this from the esteemed Mr. Jacobs wasn't exactly a confession praising our powers of observation? Never underestimate the DM's ability to point you in the wrong direction with a few words that neither confirm nor deny your own speculations.

Either way, it'd be nice if this was part of a "continuing the adventure" shtick for the end of the series. Yep, probably still time to toss that in there if you haven't already. Just sayin.....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually I can think of a non evil human lich from the Forgotten Realms, Ioulaum.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ioulaum.

That said, he's probably the most powerful caster that world has ever seen, unless you count Karsus' spell that took out Mystryl making him the most powerful. Of course he couldn't control that power and died screaming so I don't really think it counted.

At any rate, lorewise there are precedents for neutral and good versions of the lich, just not really that common. Although as always, if its good with your DM and works with your group, roll with it. Might want to watch out for random parties of peasants wielding pitchforks and torches though, I could see a lot of those in your immediate future...


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Well then, back to waiting it is. I hate waiting. Thanks for the heads up though guys.

Are we there yet?

/sigh.....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sooooo, I subscribe, it says I've been charged, and I get no download. You guys got to download yours already? What did I miss?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

XPs. Hmm, those are those little things that always fall off and you step on 'em and....hmmm, no. Oh yeah! They're the things that roll around and...and....hmmm, no. Nope, haven't used those in years. But if you really need some I think I've got a case or two in the attic. More than welcome to 'em if you can find them in amongst the other junk.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It really all comes down to what you play as far as rolling goes. If you're going to do a 1st/2nd edition run put that point buy stuff out of your head now. Stats never increased back then without serious magic, books/wishes/etc. You didn't get a freebie handout to your scores every few levels. Worse for some classes, if you didn't have an 18 your casting abilities were limited to say the least.

All that aside I still use 4d6 drop the lowest reroll 1s. What can I say, old habits die hard. Since I'm the DM I really don't care what your stats are like, I'm pretty sure I can come up with something you'll find challenging.

I guess a better question would be how similar are stats from a 15 point buy by level 20 Vs. 4d6 drop the lowest but never getting any stat increases via leveling?


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Consider this book sold. Do I need it? Nope, sure don't. The thing is, what books like this offer is really invaluable. They offer a different take on the game. No matter how close you look at something you'll never see it from someone else's perspective, that's where the stuff you missed is usually at. And you always miss something....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I like the idea behind this. The DM never rolls dice, well, almost never. That takes away some of the adversarial elements that can spring up between DM and players, leaving a more story oriented atmosphere. And as Papa above pointed out, if you really don't like something you have no control over you can always spend an XP to avoid it.

Basically, a rules-lite system with a very interesting background. If you have a good DM it could be a great game to play. Of course if you have a bad DM it doesn't matter what system you use, you're doomed anyway....

Either way, its definitely worth a look.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually, this would be doable. Maybe the crystals have abilities that can be broadcast to underlings, upping their power levels by a substantial amount, making them a challenge for level 20 characters. Maybe they aren't all that rare, putting a few into the hands of "lieutenants" and such. Perhaps being close/in range negatively affects how magic works, well, mortal magic anyway, causing teleports, divinations, and such to falter. Yeah, doing this wouldn't be all that hard really, bit of work on the boosts and you're in there.

As to loot, well, you're hosed. They need to forget about the loot carrot, after all, they're already level 20. At this point they aren't thinking about the next score, they need to put their eyes on the real game.


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Wait. You guys are DM'ing and you're telling me you don't fudge rolls behind that huge DM screen? I..... You......

BWAHAHAHHHAAAAAAAHAHHHHAHHAAAAAHAHHHAHHHHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

What was it Khan said? "You can't even break a rule. How can you be expected to break bone?"

I'm sorry, I don't mean any of this in a bad way, its just kind of shocking to see how far things have changed. No wonder you see all this "optimized" stuff. I bet you guys run your Paths without customizing them to your group too.

See, I've always put story and party enjoyment over random rolls, no module can ever cover your group with the options they need. Your group is always unique and if you want to bring the story out you're going to have to customize here and there. And if you see some little twist of luck wipe your party out because the bad guys got a string of good rolls, that's got nothing to do with a good story. Used to be a good DM would fudge things. I dunno, maybe I'm showing my mileage, but my players always have a good time, so I suppose it all works out. Different strokes and what not....


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I'd be completely against gods being unassailable by the players, yet at the same time I don't think putting gods into a beastiary like Dieties & Demigods is a good thing either. Back in the day that book was taken too often for a Monster Manual 2, rather than a reference and background guide.

Mostly I look at it like what Raistlin did in the dragonlance Legends series. Run around on the god's home plane screaming your head off killing her minions(after a suitably epic journey just to get to that point), then lure her away from her point of power where she's vulnerable. Once there, spring the trap, whack the god, viola. Well, ok, maybe a little more complicated but you get the idea.

So, for my campaigns at least, deities are beyond mythic, most of the time. Until you catch them with their pants down around their legs, then they're no more mythic than anyone else, assuming you're prepared.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To answer the op's question, yes, yes you are the only one.

That said, I think maybe a part of the problem you're having is a phrase you brought up, "moderately optimized". Stuff like that, and players who indulge in it(let alone go overboard with it) will kill a story pretty quick. An "optimized" party can make for a decent game, but rules like the Mythic ones can really end up like fire in a kid's hands. Not a pretty sight....

Maybe I'm lucky to have started playing when this was still a roleplaying game. I see things in terms of story, not damage per second. Maybe a less serious less "optimized" approach, with more of an emphasis on storytelling would work? I dunno, different strokes and all that I suppose. Good luck either way.


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Sorry, didn't notice all that had been written about something a few pages back. I'll just delete what I wrote and let sleeping dogs lie...

As for the topic, looks interesting, and better yet, free.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Page Count? The great nemesis of writers the worlds over. Interesting, I'd wondered how it was determined where the party ended up level'wise. The overall process makes a bit more sense now. I always modify modules I DM and kept wondering why no one just added a little extra spice here and there to up the levels by endgame. You've got 20, might as well use 'em.

Page Count. I hate that guy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Vexous wrote:
Do we know yet if we'll be hitting level 20 by the end of this run? Last I heard it was a maybe yes maybe no kind of thing. Really hoping this one goes the distance.

I just finished developing part 3, and by the end of that one, your PCs should be WELL into 12th level.

SO... things are looking QUITE good for hitting 20th level by the end. Maybe even a bit before the end!

In the words of the immortal Eric Cartman, "Sweeeeeeeeeeet!" Thanks for the heads up guys.


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Do we know yet if we'll be hitting level 20 by the end of this run? Last I heard it was a maybe yes maybe no kind of thing. Really hoping this one goes the distance.


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Stuff like this? Yeah. See, stuff like this is why I subbed.

'Nuff Said!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just going to put my vote in here for something along these lines. Yeah, I'd buy it. I've been doing this sort of stuff on my own for years but seeing someone elses view on things is always good. And for those who are just starting it'd be a godsend.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, heres to hoping the xp curve works out for a lvl 20 crew by the end. Sometimes I forget you guys have to go by the numbers when you design these and can't just wing it like a regular DM might. On the other hand, one of the reasons I buy these(aside from the excellent storylines), is to see how the people in charge handle tossing out encounters. Never easy writing premades for high level, let alone max level, looking forward to seeing how you lay it out.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The gods can't do everything even if they wanted to. The president of a large corporation runs the business, but he doesn't do every job. He can't. He delegates authority because he can't be in all places at all times doing all things.

Look at Aroden's first herald. He lets her watch the shop just once while he's overseas setting up new contacts and BANG! Dead herald. Now he's gotta go out and put an add in the paper advertising the open position, wade through endless reams of out of work loser wannabes trying to get in on the "godthing". He was lucky to get Iomedae, sure, girls got major issues but at least she's trainable. And of course theres the time effort and cost of training the newbie in the hopes they don't foul up like the last one.

No. Gods aren't just gonna jump in and start micro-managing everything. It doesn't work for mortals, it doesn't work for them. Besides, dying for a cause is something mortals do, not gods.


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We start out at level 6 in this one? Sounds like we'll be going all the way to 20 by the end of the series. Anyone know if thats the case?


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And yet again, another reason to like this company. Sold....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dex based fighter.Sounds good to me. Roll with it. You guys need to stop meta gaming and just game for a bit. Enjoy yourself and your new toys rather than yelling about what you didn't get. Not aiming this at anyone in particular but if you start tearing something apart because it isn't perfectly balanced you'll end up with nothing. Its playable and its logical. Grass is always greener on the other side guys.....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Once you get to certain parts of the APs things move rather quickly from one book to the next. At higher levels having a mage to teleport the group around can fix some of the "need to be elsewhere right this second". At the early levels though your travel times will be rough. You'll be commuting from Riddleport to Sandspoint to Korvosa, hundreds of miles between each.

Aside from travel time theres also level considerations. Run through one AP to get to the next and you'll be starting that next AP over leveled. Now do that again two times for the last two APs.

Not saying you can't thread it all together somehow, but it sounds like a serious case of overcomplication if you do. An insanely large amount of work for the DM to juggle, backed up by a potentially bored group of players devastating most everything in there path from being over leveled. Or dying horribly because they're underleveled to keep them at pace for the next 3 APs.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Couple things here. It sounds like a lot of dying is going on and your crew feel like they have no hope of living, hence the desire to not get attatched to characters headed to the meatgrinder of your game. "Just roll up a new one, the DM is gonna kill us no matter what we do, at least this way we'll finally get some decent gear..." You may want to tone it down a touch. I'm not at the table so I can't say for sure but when the party stops caring about staying alive you're headed in the wrong direction.

The other point is maybe you shouldn't allow new characters at all. Go REAL old school. Someone dies, the party needs to get him back alive or move on without that player. Die this week, don't bother showing up next week....unless we can rez you.


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Dragon Star, as opposed to Dragonstar? That was a space/fantasy setting for 3.5 from Fantasy Flight Games. Hope no one gets sued over the name. Sounds interesting, I'll have to give it a look.


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James Jacobs wrote:


No... "Mission Statement" is corporate technobabble.

We're here to make games that people like, and that includes us. I guess that counts as a mission statement? As distasteful as I find the idea that I just made up a mission statement...

This right here is the kind of attitude that makes you a success. Keep this place run by gamers selling games rather than a megacorp pushing a "formula" and you'll do well.


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I heard from a very reliable internet authority that Sorshen will be fully statted for the upcoming Mythic Playtest. Actually, thats a complete lie. But I'd have liked to have heard it. You know, all dressed up and no one to kill and whatnot. Just sayin....


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You guys have such nice soft and cuddly DMs. Must be nice. Yeah you can use summon on traps, but what if the trap is inside the chest of loot? What if the trap destroys your loot and not you? I'm not seeing summon monster get me any sort of payday here.


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Kind of funny, the Githyanki and Githzerai being "Product Identity". They originally came out in the Fiend Folio, which was a compilation of player submitted monsters. Somebody gave those concepts up to TSR to be used by everyone. Guess he was a tad naive....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If its really an issue make Attractive a feat, takeable to a maximum of 2 times. Each time you take it you get a bonus of +2 on social skill interactions with the opposite sex(if they swing that way). This is what they do in Mutants & Masterminds, also a d20 based system, and it works pretty well from what I've seen to describe the high end lookers.


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Odraude wrote:
Yo dawg I herd you like playtests

Wherever that facebook link went to its currently unavailable. I think this rates a

"NOOOOOOOOOOO!"


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually, Second Darkness gave out quite a few CRs for demon lords that the drow worship. They ranged from CR26 for the smallfry to CR32 for Orcus and his contemporaries, with Lamashtu as CR-(Deity). Nocticula at 32 is one of the demonlords supposedly on the brink of godhood so that may well be the top end. So yeah, with all the Baphon-buildup we've seen I could picture him as a CR 30/32.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Theres been some talk that the up and coming Mythic Adventures rules might allow a single character to run the APs. Unconfirmed though as of yet. You might check out the playtest when it becomes available this month. Soon from what we've been told. Not sure thats what they're aiming for, but it sounds like it might do the trick for your situation. Running one or two characters through an AP should be a bit more manageable than four. Theres a few threads about it in Paizo Products I think.


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LazarX wrote:
Vexous wrote:
A bit of perspective on the whole godkiller thing. This is DnD no matter how much we calll it Pathfinder.
That's purely a matter of opinion. According to Gygax, 3rd edition wasn't "D&D". I'd say Pathfinder is it's own game, because it's developed in ways that neither TSR nor Wizards would ever have taken it. And it's much better game for NOT Being D&D.

Oddly enough, I've been saying much the same thing about 3.0/3.5. Those sort of statements didn't go over too well back in the day. However, Pathfinder has a bit more spirit than 3.x and seems somehow closer to the original. Is Pathfinder its dad? Nope. But make no mistake, its part of the family.


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Actually, the thing with Lahmashtu sort of solidifies the point I think. Like any good villain she tossed mooks at her target, and they hurt him despite his divinity. Lots of them, true. But she's a goddess, she can toss armies around. As in any fight, after he'd expended resources she waltzed in and finished him. PCs don't need armies of mooks, they have a group of PCs. If you're Raistlin all you need is a cleric, if you're Karsus of Netheril you just need one single spell.

Players kill gods in DnD, its a time honored tradition. That said, I can see your point in wanting it to be an over the top situation if it actually occurs. That was one of 3.5 epic level's problems. Everything was so open ended killing gods could be an everyday stroll in the park.


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A bit of perspective on the whole godkiller thing. This is DnD no matter how much we calll it Pathfinder. Gods have been getting killed by players since before the Deities & Demigods book came out back in 1st Ed. Not right, not wrong, its just how it is. Gods die here, you want a game where that doesn't happen try some World of Darkness. Here you can rise to challenge the gods themselves, there you get eaten by your elders. Just how it is.


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How exactly did they know there were nothing but lvl 1's in the tavern? The world isn't static, there could be anyone in that tavern and if they get obnoxious make sure somewhere there is higher lvl than they are, and they aren't amused at being threatened by some punk. Even if someone isn't there at that moment, everyone knows someone, maybe someone that doesn't like some out of towner coming in and roughing up his friends. Maybe someone that could crush the PC like a bug. Its a big world out there. Use it.


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Nerfs are bad. Don't go there. Just, don't.. You're the DM, you can do anything and thats a lot. For instance, you can summon monsters right on top of the archer. The guy wants to be a huge threat like that he needs to understand he's going to be the first attacked. Like attacked by other archers you put in your campaign for instance. Yes thats right, not just one but two, maybe more. You can do that, you're the DM. And of course theres any number of spells to deal with pesky arrows, come to think of it, isn't there a shield bonus of some sort that deflects arrows as well?

It was like this for magic users back in 1st ed. You saw a guy in robes in the back you capped him lickety split because you knew he'd slaughter everyone in the group if you didn't. These days its the archers turn to be in that seat so only the dumbest of your villains will be unprepared to suicide rush the guy. Naturally your main threat(s) will be behind as much cover as possible while the minions do their little dance with him. Lots of options for dealing with archers besides nerfs.

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