Venatio's page

Our group will soon be running the first AP of Hell’s Rebels, and I have been going over the Player’s Guide since then studying the terms, actions, teams and events associated with the weekly schedule of the Rebellion. While this AP is clearly a perfect fit for Chaotic Good character types, if ever there was one, I had settled myself on playing a Paladin. As a Lawful Good, conduct based character in an environment of Intrigue, Secrecy, and Resistance, you would think that this would be a poor decision. Why, I’d stick out like a sore thumb!

On the contrary, I was actually attracted to the challenge. What’s more, I think the involvement of such a character in a resistance movement (as a prime mover rather than merely a supporter) is an overlooked aspect to any successful change in government. I’d like to try to explain my thoughts on such with this post.

For anyone curious, here is a link to the Pathfinder Reference Document’s definition of the alignments.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/alignme nt.html#lawful-good

Lawful Good characters exemplify duty, fairness, honor, property, responsibility, right, truth, virtue, and worthiness. They are tireless in seeing that justice is done, and are most comfortable in a world of law and order. Good is as much, if not more so, a part of their character as Law. In the end, they will see justice is done—by their own hands if necessary

Now, even given that Lawfulness is not synonymous with Legality, and that firm adherence to a code of conduct may take precedence over local rules and customs, I would generally assume that your average Lawful Good character (Paladin or not) is firmly comfortable adhering to the rules and regulations of the area they are in. It says so in the LG description: “Hers [the Lawful Good Character] is a world of order, and she obeys superiors and finds it almost impossible to believe there's any bad in them”.

Should an area where they stay for a protracted length of time have unreasonable rules or excessive fees and taxation, a Lawful Good character will likely champion change through the system and perhaps be mostly successful thanks to his or her support from the trust and traditions of the community. Whereas a Chaotic character may be viewed as a blacksheep or even an outsider, a Lawful character will be seen as persistent and reliant, exactly the kind of qualities needed to push for long term change in the system. Such an environment is where a Lawful Good character is obviously most comfortable, assuming they succeed.

So, what happens when that fail? Being unsuccessful in such a venture is not necessarily a turning point, but what if this unfairness is not only unaffected but expands further? As a lack of justice continues to pervade a community, a Lawful Good character may very well keep trying to adhere to the laws as best they can, but I would say only the most stone faced would not start developing some form of a persistent twitching over such gross violations of reasonableness, blatant thuggery, and overt persecutions. This is also just such an environment where we find this AP to be set in.

If a Lawful person can be thought of as firm and inflexible in their ways, then the misuse of law and order can be thought of as a steadily increasing load or strain upon their psyche. Sooner or later, when you push hard enough, they don’t bend. They snap.

This leads me to my next idea of how Lawful Good characters in a similar situation as this AP would behave. I would say Lawful Good characters really only have two modes when it comes to dealing with oppressive, brutal regimes:

1. Work within the system for meaningful change
2. Wage war to change the government and apprehend evil doers

(I would argue there is not much in between)

If there is at least one thing that no one should dispute Lawful Good characters can do, its wage war. We’ve seen such in the Worldwound adventures and with the ongoing Glorious Reclamation against Cheliax. In a no holds brawl where the chips are down and the knives are out, Lawful Good really lets rip. Lawful Good is not Lawful Nice, after all.

They’ll try to avoid harming innocents and bystanders, and protect them where they can be. Otherwise, the mentality is that there is no other option but to fight, so best get it on and over with as quickly as possible with the least amount of damage. They won’t lie to people’s faces, break promises, torture spies, threaten hostages, authorize mass collateral damage, steal from innocents, threaten family members, engage in terrorism, or kill without cause. Anything else, however, goes.

So what happens when this happens? When a system gets so bad that it forces such upstanding citizens to grudgingly take up arms against their government? Several things.

1. It gives legitimacy to the Rebellion. A group of underdogs, outlaws, and generally thought-of misfits suddenly have representatives and envoys that even Lawful Institutions would be comfortable conversing and dealing with (though not necessarily publicly). It helps if you’re known to keep your word and never lie.

2. Conversely, it reduces the Regime’s legitimacy. Suddenly, a credible alternative for law abiding folks starts to make itself known. It’s worse for the regime if the Lawful Good characters are native born traditionalists that can pull support from more conservative factions.

3. The Resistance becomes stronger. The same traits that made such Lawful characters good community organizers and law abiders also allows them to enforce discipline and organization across the rebellion. The rebels go from being a rag tag group to a credible freedom fighting force.

4. The Resistance gains endurance. A Lawful character is nothing if not persistent, disciplined, and focused. Whereas as a more Chaotic character may shift attentions as the months and years drag on, a Lawful character is in the struggle for the long haul.

5. A credible plan is developed for what victory will look like, and how the new government will base itself. An exiled heir may be found and supported, an imprisoned leader restored to their rightly office, or a constitution drafted for a new governing body.

In conclusion, I would say that not only would a Lawful Good character fit into a Good themed Rebellion against an Oppressive Regime of Devil Worshipers, but that their aid in the fight is crucial and marks a major turning point in the struggle. As a final note, I would bring up as an example of precedence three Lawful Good characters from another well-known Rebellion that I feel brought these benefits to their own faction in their fight against an oppressive, galaxy spanning empire: Mon Mothma, Admiral Ackbar, and Luke Skywalker.

Thank you all for the long read :P

I figured theres not much to add at this point, and since no one has responded yet, can this thread I made be deleted? http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2stgi?Lore-Friendliness-of-Backstory-Guild#1

Venatio wrote:

Low Dex inquisitors would benefit from just having heavy armor proficiency in general, even at level 1. Dwarves with the Travel domain would obviously get the most benefit. You wouldn't have to worry about upgrading to mithral until lv 11.

If you have the feats to spare at level 1 it's not a bad idea. I tend to to prefer thigns like Toughness or Improved Initiative depending on the build and goals.

Ultimately I feel levels 3 or 5 would be a better fit, since by then getting Fullplate shouldn't be as big an investment. There is the issue of changing armor sets when making the transition to mithral. Depending on how much you invested in your prior armor, you could lose enough money in the exchange that it would minimize the mechanical benefits of the new set in the short run. You'd get the use of Stalwart and a higher Dex ceiling, but might lose a couple enhancement points or an armor special ability.

If, for some reason, you have a wizard with Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and some point in the Craft: Armor skill, then the whole affair would be an even break, not taking into account the additional cost of the mithral material for the new set.

Low Dex inquisitors would benefit from just having heavy armor proficiency in general, even at level 1. Dwarves with the Travel domain would obviously get the most benefit. You wouldn't have to worry about upgrading to mithral until lv 11.

While that is true, the real problem is getting your hands on Mithral Fullplate. It's not exactly cheap, and if you're starting at a low level (1-4) your funds are very limited.

But you don't get Stalwart until level 11.

I don't remember if it was addressed in the guide (which is great, btw), but mithral Fullplate should be treated as medium armor in all but proficiency. That is one of the special qualities of mithral, it bumps the treated armor level down by one (min light). Normally the heavy to medium transition is inconsequential, but that means barbarian and ranger abilities that rely only having up to medium armor would still be eligible for use if they had mithral heavy armor. The same should be true of Stalwart.

I had not thought about it like that Mort. If you take into account that, in most low level combats, you'll only ever get one charge off assuming the enemy does not get to you first, the greater DPR of the Claws relevant to the Greatsword do shine through, as well as the split attacks. Keeping Rage up on all combat rounds at that level range might not be practical, but that is where the Greatsword will come into play, of course.

Ah, here we go;

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Case Closed. For the two-handed weapon focused Barbarian, Lesser Beast Totem is only circumstantial at best. A shame really.

I take it you meant to say yes to my first question.

As far as it being said, I would be surprised if this question has not been raised before. Plenty of Monstrous Humanoids use weapons and have natural claw attacks.

If the barbarian had wolverine claws sprouting from his knuckles, he could conceivably punch someone with a hand that was holding a weapon while the other was free to do likewise, though this would seem unwieldy if said weapon was two-handed sized. If these "Claws" were as extended nails, than this would obviously not be feasible.

Assuming you are right, the current rule at leasts still supports the following;

1)Such a character can immediately switch to using one of his claws as a primary natural weapon while the other hand(for whatever reason) held the Greatsword. He would not be able to use the Greatsword for Attacks of Opportunity for that round as a result.

2)Basing off the first part, such a character in a Grapple could use one of his Natural Claw Attacks while the other held his weapon. Pulling out a dagger would probably be better.

3)If said Character had 3 arms, he could switch between the two weapon styles as I have said in my first post, doing Attack of Opportunities with either the weapon or the claws unless the weapon was two handed and he had used his claw attacks previously. If he had 4 arms, well, whoopee.

4)A Lv 1 Barbarian with Lesser Beast Totem can carry multiple two handed weapons,can attack as a standard action moving in, drop the weapon on the next turn and attack with his claws as a full round action.

In Conclusion: Lesser Beast Totem kind of sucks and would be a lot better from levels 1-5 if you could switch between charging with a two handed weapon on one round and using your claw attacks on the next without dropping your Masterwork Greatsword in order to do so.

Lets say a Lv 1 Barbarian with Lesser Beast Totem charges an Orc and attacks with a Greatsword. Next round the Barbarian rages, getting access to two primary claw attacks.

If the Barbarian wants to make those two claw attacks instead of attacking with the Greatsword, would he (or she) have to drop the weapon as a free action before doing a full round action attacking with the claws?

In other words, do your hands need to be empty when making claw attacks with both of them? The feat does not specify your hands as the body part receiving the claws, can you make claw attacks with any other part of the body?

Well, straight out dealing damage with a Bullrush is only done when you are using the Spiked Destroyer feat to deal Spiked Armor Damage as a swift action.

As for environmental damage, the simplest way is to knock them over a cliff. There is a line of spells that can create various types of pits to knock creatures into should they succeed in avoiding them initially.

You are asking for damage sustained from a collision into an obstacle or environmental hazard.

I would say, depending on the surface, bludgeoning or piercing damage in addition to your strength modifier.

A soft wall (Wood, so on): 1d4 + (1/2)Str Modifier (Nonlethal)

A Hard Wall (Stone Wall, so on): 1d6 + Str Modifier (Bludgeoning)

A Hazardous Wall (Spiked Wall, Crystalline Cave wall): 1d10 + (1.5)*Str Modifer (Piercing, Bludgeoning)

Just an idea how something like that could look like

What kind of mini format does Callous Jack use? From what I have seen of the teasers, the minis are encompassed in a square frame, typically a mid shot. Is that how they all show up on the print pages, or is it more like Ashton Perry's and Crystal Fraiser's where its a full shot on a mirror column with half circle bases?

By the way, what color are the bases? White, black, or the Forest hex scheme on the cover?

To boost an adjacent ally's AC if they are attacked by a range attack, or really any attack.

And if we are going back to the wording of the standard Aid Another action, than it specifically says

"If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10."

It is kinda of weird to be picking and choosing parts of the original action to adhere to with the interpretation of the body guard feat.

What is the benefit of Body Guard exactly? Is it allowing you to go straight to the "Aid and benefit after an attack roll of 10", or is it simply letting you use an attack of opportunity to qualify for the setup involving being able to attack the opponent IN ADDITION to having to be adjacent to the ally?

In other words, what is exactly constitutes the Aid Another Action?

I guess that is as clear as it is going to get. In that case, does that mean you could use this for ranged attacks as well?

It stated that you can use Bodyguard to use aid ally on your ally's AC bonus when they are attacked. Normally though, you need to be adjacent to use a standard action on an enemy that your ally will attack or that will attack your ally.

For the purpose of using aid other through the bodyguard feat, do you have to be adjacent to both your ally AND the enemy who you will give an AC bonus against, or just your ally?

From PFSRD;

Bodyguard (Combat)

Your swift strikes ward off enemies attacking nearby allies.

Prerequisite: Combat reflexes.

Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.

Normal: Aid another is a standard action.

It turns out my error in the base attack progression has required me to make several revisions, so after correcting the base atk progression (hopefully) and after some feat swap outs I have organized this build:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19420057/ClericCailean.pdf

Questions arise as to whether Divine Interference is truly worth it, and if not what to put in its place (Turn Undead, Combat Casting). I am also wondering about the value of both minor and major spell expertise, and if having two choices of circumstantial crits for a scimitar is actually useful.

Otherwise, the feats fall rather readily into place, and do a good enough job of supporting the overall vision of the character that I have posted the new build for further input by the community.

Yeah, if you want that fourth attack at 20 you'll need 4 levels in fighter, not just 2.

Thats a shame, but I could honestly live without it. It would have been a longterm icing on the cake, but not as important as getting a 15 base atk by level 19. Two more levels of fighter would hurt spell progression far to much, so it would not be worth the tradeoff in my opinion.

I will make those corrections in my final draft.

Hoh, that is actually pretty big, I will have to look at that. Hopefully I can still take blinding critical at level 19, as that would be the most likely change I would have to make. Thank you for pointing that out.

Hello everyone, at the risk of cluttering the advice forum more than it is already, I have come to ask for some advice on the finishing touches I could do on a character concept I have come to feel rather strongly about. As a dedicated DM, whether or not I will ever use it myself is beside the point. Most likely, a future player might look at it and like it enough to use it in my games.

Anyhow, for those familiar and comfortable with dropbox, I have posted a link for the build (1-20) below. It uses a presentation template I have been tinkering with for some time.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19420057/Dervish%20of%20Cayden%20Cailean.pdf

The character is built as a (18 Cleric)/(2 Fighter), who is meant to provide divine magic support while at the same time being just as good as hard hitting, supportive, and mobile melee combatant.

A two level fighter dip at 2-3 is perhaps the biggest potential drawback of the build given the hit to spell progression, but it does bring a lot to the table, enough so that I believe it is well justified. In addition to accelerating feat progression, I have gone with the Cad fighter archetype, providing me with class skills in acrobatics, among other things.

Magical Knack keeps caster level updated throughout.

The little bit of fighter base atk progression eventually sees the character have my fourth attack by level 20, and blinding critical at level 19 where I would not have previously.

I have applied the Liberation domain along with Travel (Exploration). Liberation will always be a stretch, but given that it was originally one of Cailean's domains that was just later removed (quite unfairly), and that it is very appropriate for Cailean's portfolio, I have decided that it would be nothing of a stretch to include it. Otherwise this could simply be a cleric of Desna (but no where near as cool).

Only the first three pages (and perhaps the last) of the pdf are relevant to the discussion, which include feats, traits, and domains. Also, ignore the Elite Array I have posted, that is what my club used initially, and it is perhaps the least overpowered option they have.

Thoughts and opinions? Should I change out Heighten Spell and Preferred Spell x 2 for something else? Should I bother getting Turn Undead? Should Critical Focus be moved around? Etc etc.

[EDIT] From farther down;

It turns out my error in the base attack progression has required me to make several revisions, so after correcting the base atk progression (hopefully) and after some feat swap outs I have organized this build:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19420057/ClericCailean.pdf

Questions arise as to whether Divine Interference is truly worth it, and if not what to put in its place (Turn Undead, Combat Casting). I am also wondering about the value of both minor and major spell expertise, and if having two choices of circumstantial crits for a scimitar is actually useful.

Otherwise, the feats fall rather readily into place, and do a good enough job of supporting the overall vision of the character that I have posted the new build for further input by the community.

Well for starters, Halberd is a reach weapon. In fact, the whole Phalanx Fighter "shtick" is the unique ability to use a reach weapon and a shield at the same time.

Something of an Epic Fail, Halberd is not a reach weapon.

In fact, for the Phalanx Fighter doing trips, its probably the best weapon bar none, as it also has the brace property, slashing and piercing, and counts as a polearm you can use in one hand.

For a Human Phalanx Fighter, get Heart of the Streets for the defense bonus from being next to allies. Your job and versatility will change as you progress in level, but my build has you mauling people with combat maneuvers and using Vital Strike to couple with your move action defense from level 9 and up.

Numbered at level gained, Where <> means to switch at following indicated level.

1. Combat Expertise
1. Dodge <>Power Attack (lv 8)
1. Improved Trip
2. Mobility<>Combat Reflexes (lv4)
3. Shield Focus
4. Shield Specialization: Tower
5. Body Guard
6. Greater Trip
7. In Harm’s Way
8. Improved Bull Rush
9. Vital Strike
10. Greater Bull Rush <>Improved Overrun (lv12)
11. Improved Vital Strike
12. Charge through
13. Greater Overrun
14. Greater Bull Rush
15. Lightning Reflexes
16. Greater Vital Strike
17. Stunning Assault
18. Second Chance
19. Improved Lightning Reflexes
20. Improved Second Chance

Once you get to level 4, stick with the tower shield, as you will get a +5 to your CMD from it.

Why has nobody here mentioned the Cyphermage that has just popped up on the PSFRD from Inner Sea Magic? Tons of goodies for scroll lovers, and it actually makes symbol traps worth looking into. You also get huge defenses against any such traps, so read away whatever you pick up. I would say that the Cyphermage is what the Loremaster should have been, and trumps it by such a wide margin that it makes it all but obsolete.

Heck, I would consider taking Cyphermage to be the default choice now, with (10 Wizard)/(10 Cyphermage), either getting to level 10 wizard first to get the most out of favored class and the domain abilities, or heading straight Cyphermage at lv 6 to get those scroll tricks all the quicker.

With the right Cypher Lore, scrolls go from reliable utility to customizable power shots in their own right.

Oh, forgot to mention the incredibly negligible pre reps. Knowledge History and Arcana(lol) at rank 5, Linguistics at 2 and two specific languages, and scribe scroll. Your not sacrificing anything at all to qualify for this class.

Now, As far as flavor go, I would call it a tie between the the Cyphermage and the Diabolist. Such yummy caster level goodness the both of them, and they also get a ton of class goodies as they level up, something a pure wizard sorely lacks (Arcane discoveries are rather mild).

What about the psychopomp Nosoi? A four winged little bird with a funeral mask that that acts as one of many clerks in the bureaucracy of the afterlife? Now that is just adorable.

It melds extremely well with a Neutral Wizard who has a lot of paperwork lying around. Given its ability to use medium sized writing tools, its +2 bonus to the wizard's scribe check, and its ranks in Profession(Scribe), you would have a tough case to make as to why it could not use the Master's skills in UMD to cast scrolls.

It also seems like an unparallelled scout. I mean it flies, has invisibility AT WILL, and has spirit sense to 60 ft, which is like blind sight but it can also differentiate between alive or undead. That is all kinds of useful!

So we have a small bird that can fly ahead with invisibility, see anything that is hiding, and cast scrolls at just the right time and place with near impunity. Add to that its Fascinate that also works with Undead. Did I also mention that it is adorable?

http://paizo.com/image/content/CarrionCrown/PZO9047-Nosoi.jpg

Okay, maybe the bow was a bad example. All I am saying is that there is a lot of potential to get a heck of a lot of mileage from this one trait. What about making a Rogue with a Heirloom Scimitar so that he could become a Dervish Dancer without expending a feat for scimitar proficiency or dipping into fighter or ranger?

Edit: Nevermind, bad example. You have to be proficent with a scimitar regardless for Dervish Dancer.

I guess I cant really point out anything particularly game breaking about this trait, but I will be personally looking into using it in my own characters.

What I am trying to say is that, though the trait has been toned down, the use of the Masterwork Transformation still makes it a must have for many builds. Heck, now that I think about it, my ranged Bard no longer has to use a Shortbow. Heirloom Weapon Trait with a Longbow, and as long as he holds onto the Longbow, he does not have to worry about getting the proficiency feat or dabbling in a martial class all the way up to level 20. He will just have to upgrade it along the way. The risk is obviously that losing the weapon will screw you over, but even a sundered or broken weapon can be repaired by a Lv-0 Cantrip (Mending).

I am not sure if there was a change in how the Heirloom Trait operated, as I am reading conflicting discussions on the message boards with what the PFSRD clearly shows as;

Heirloom Weapon

You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.

Benefit: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:

proficiency with that specific weapon
a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.

Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.

What interested me the most was the bonus to a single Combat Maneuver.

Now since standard equipment cannot be reforged into masterwork pieces (and therefore magical ones) by contemporary crafting techniques (aka Craft skill), I thought of this as a nice little boost to something like Trip at the lower levels (1-2, maybe 3) that would quickly get phased out as the character was forced to upgrade their equipment (Heirloom Weapon included). It would have been nice to carry the item around regardless for sentimental purposes.

But then I found this...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Masterwork Transformation

School transmutation; Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2

Casting Time 1 hour
Components V, S, M (see below)

Range touch
Target one weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves’ tools becomes masterwork thieves’ tools, and so on. If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect. You can affect 50 pieces of ammunition as if they were one weapon. You decide if the object’s appearance changes to reflect this improved quality.

The material component for the spell is magical reagents worth the cost difference between a normal item and the equivalent masterwork item (typically 300 gp for a weapon, 150 gp for armor, or 50 gp for a tool). If an object has multiple masterwork options (such as a double weapon, or a spiked shield that could be made masterwork as a weapon or armor), you choose one option of the object to affect (though you can cast the spell again to affect another option).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I suppose with Ultimate Magic, anything is possible. Unfortunately, from a optimization viewpoint, it would be hard to deny that any class that relies on a single weapon based Combat Maneuver should always get this no matter what (+2 is really nice). Such would include my Tripping-Halberd loving Phalanx Soldier, but I am sure others would as well. You would keep the same weapon your entire play through and keep upgrading it at regular intervals, and for doing so you will still retain that +2 bonus it had all along.

Is this an RP goldmine, or a breakaway from the original intention of the Trait?

Venatio wrote:

Brave Diego, bravo. I think its high time someone resurrected the hordlings and brought them into the world of Pathfinder (at least via homebrew).

We need a browser-based Random Hordling Generator.

How many potential combinations would there have to be before it is considered a success?

I happen to consider the whole CR system a bit arbitrary regarding power levels across a large sampling of units. Given how easy it is to simply say that the adventurers are fighting level 4 Orcs, basing an army structure on CR is a hit or miss thing. For example, I am willing to say that your average Crusader is something along the lines of a lv 5 Fighter or some such, which could translate into CR 3-4. They should be able to trump dretch like cannon fodder individually but (unsupported) still be easily overwhelmed by them. I would expect a similar power level represented by the demons.

From what I have read, I find Diego's suggestion to honestly hit the proverbially nail on the head. The hordling sounds like the perfect generic demon from which to supplement dretch hordes. That they are each chaotically unique in their own way is a refreshing change of pace from the otherwise set in stone demon types of the 'elites'. More than anything else, I would find an army of hordlings, screened by cannon fodder dretch, supported by far more dangerous demons, and led by a greater demon such as a balor, to more than aptly fill the role of iconic demon army of impending doom, Gods save us all.

Brave Diego, bravo. I think its high time someone resurrected the hordlings and brought them into the world of Pathfinder (at least via homebrew).

The Urdefhan, a fiend race with strong warrior traditions, are more along the lines I was thinking about (Daemons though they may be), so they could be tweaked a bit and renamed an Abyssal demon type (made from the souls of... Evil Soldiers?).

The Brimoraks do seem to give the infernal armies a solid core infantry in their home planes, which is even part of their job description. I am, however, not just a bit perplexed as to why they have to be so short. If they are more bound to their natural environments in the Abyss than other demons, which their description seems to naturally imply, than that opens up a reason to rely more on Necromancer's many non-demons in the material world, alongside using Brimoraks as shock troops.

A balancing act, to be sure, but there is not enough solid information to go by otherwise, unless we ask the game creators themselves.

Fiendish Templates could work to an extent, but I do not think it alone would cover all of the bases.

I like your list of suggestions Necromancer. Humanoid Cultists are an inevitable staple, but the question arises as to whether they could survive in the depths of the World Wound's tortured landscape. They are, however, a good pairing for a population of Tieflings bred from slaves. I could imagine demons such as Kalavakus being prime progenitors for Tiefling slave warriors. However, were that ever the case that Tieflings were being bred for as a critical part of the World Wound's military forces, that would likely make it have the largest concentration of Tieflings in Golarion, far and above stumping that of even Cheliax.

The only problem that I see with all your other suggestions (undead, corrupted wildlife, constructs), while they are very much likely to always have a place in demon hordes, and give ample credence to demons being able to field such massive and traditional armies, is that those are all technically not Abyssal demons. The Abyssal lore explicitly states that Demons are the most numerous of the three fiendish races/factions, so I simply find it hard to believe that there is not a demon one step above a Dretch numerous enough to fill out the role of shock or defensive infantry.

It could be that I am thinking about this the wrong way. Warhammer Fantasy has a very similar (if not the same) setup with Demons and the Northern Wastes. Even there, humanoids (Beastmen, Human Chaos Warriors) were the primary army force, with Demons (as numerous as they were in their respective realms) filling out specialized roles in the overall battle. Even armies based on the Demons of Chaos, no demon every truly fit the role of versatile line infantry. Their natures simply would not allow for it.

A hyper skinny, stealth based murder demon. The babau is far to specialized to fill the role of infantry, and its abilities are far to powerful for an entire army of them to be on the field. I would relegate it instead to a mobile battlefield 'Assassin' at most.

I have been reading about one region in Northern Avistan known as the 'Worldwound'. Essentially some kind of brief tear in the fabric of reality between the Material and Abyssal planes has resulted in a Demonic (but not Daemonic) infestation that threatens to expand and engulf the whole of Golarion. This expansion seems to be tied to the military conquest of the demonic forces,and the whole Crusade theme has been applied to it with the forces of Mendev (aka the Crusader States of Iomedae). Essentially a playground for High level Lawful good Characters, but the way the narrative goes clashes between mortal armies and demon forces are common place. The mortal armies are easy enough to characterize; Pilgrims, Crusaders, Mercenaries, and high level Paladins and Clerics to bulk them out. As a fan of RTS games, I find this to be a very traditional setup.

The problem I am seeing here is the lack of characterization for the demonic armies. I do not have published material available, but while looking through the PFSRD I could not for the life of me find a credible Infantry unit to the fill the gap between the fodder like Dretch and the more powerful Vrock, Succubi, Glabrezu, etc. At the very least, nothing that I would think your average every day mortal could 'hold the line' against. This lack of a middle ground also translates into player confrontations with demons, where demons are relegated to BBEG or mini boss encounters. With cults involved, sure, the humanoids could fill that gap, but sparing that, I find this to be a disconcerting hole in the whole mythology.

The demon lords have to rule over something right? There has to be some kind of commoner like demon that could be their subjects and also fill out the bulk of their hordes as weapon and armor based core infantry. Something that your average mortal warrior could proudly fight against while the Paladins go after the really bad stuff. Could there truly be nothing of the sort?

Sword and Board is not necessarily characterized by the Shield Slam line of feats, which I personally find underwhelming. The Fighter's Phalanx Soldier Archetype, for example, is best optimized (in my opinion) by using the Tower Shield, which does not allow for shield bashes. Many of that Archetype's features (such as Irresistible Advance) get the largest bonus from the Fighter using the Tower Shield. The Phalanx Soldier loses some of the fighter's best perks (Armor Training, Weapon Training), but in return gets the potential to be a Combat Maneuver Beast (Defending against and Enacting them), as well as providing a helpful ally defense buff that gets much better later on and couples well with the bodyguard and Vital Strike feats. Not to mention negating some of the penalties for using a Tower Shield in the first place!

Its a tricky build, and I put a lot of thought into a Human Phalanx Soldier build with Heart of the Streets (Allies benefit from standing next to you, why not you to them?). With some Bonus Feat switching, and a Halberd for tripping, you get a strong Defensive Support Fighter that is viable at all levels of play. The resulting build is something I am extremely pleased with and which I call the "Hoplite". It still sword and board, but in its own unique way.

I figured you weren't relying on the weapon training boosts, and like I said earlier I do like your build but in my party I'm the main DPR guy so my build is trying to blend damage with control and so far its worked pretty well!

I am glad to hear your character is working out for you R.C.

Oh, and Cheapy, I actually do have to move or change around my lower three feats, but that is because I have realized that Improved Lightning Reflexes cannot be taken as a Fight Bonus Feat. Had that been allowed to happen, it would have made a great end, as the Phalanx Soldier Benefits from Improved Evasion while using a Tower Shield at level 20. That not being the case, I am very open to trying to fit in Combat Patrol in there for those three feats instead.

I am not sure what you are trying to point out with the polearms and overrun, as the Halberd would act like any other melee weapon without reach in any other case. Would it be the case that you would not be able to use, say, a Greatsword, to do that AoO as well? I am actually not sure if you are allowed to do Attacks of opportunity while charging to begin with, but that is what the spirit of Greater Overrun seems to imply.

On closer inspection, I just realized that the Armiger is not homebrew but rather... a third party supplement from Super Genius Games? I had no idea third parties were making supplements and offshoots to sell to Pathfinder fans. Kind of ironic given how Pathfinder is something of an offshoot of 3.5. That, along with the Death Rider, Archon, Shaman, Vanguard and so on from that company alone. While this might certainly add more flavor and diversity to player options, I would be cautious about embracing such additions, especially since I know so little about them right now. Still, it looks more official than home brew, if only a little. Thanks for the link Cheapy.

R.Cornelius your right, I forgot that Weapon training was replaced by the Phalanx Soldier's other class features. Luckily, I was not relying on Weapon Training for anything else, so I can simply disregard that mistake. The Combat Maneuver bonus with Pole Arms will be sorely missed, however.

Your right Cheapy, the Stalwart Defender does have a way to shutdown movement all around him with the right Defense Power and buffs to reach, but relying exclusively on that means that you assume the action will always take place around the square you've chosen to defend at the start of the battle, a risky proposition in any scenario. Then there is the fact that it is a one trick pony tactic, a bit cheap on the side, and does not sufficiently mitigate the other liabilities of that Prestige Class.

I defend my use of the Overrun feats. The Phalanx Soldier gets a solid Bonus to Overrun and Bull Rush with Irresistible Advance (lv 15.), especially with the Tower Shield, making great synergy with the Charge Through feat. Being able to Overrun one enemy, attack him with AoO, Bull Rush another into a wall so that they are prone as well (If the shield slam rule applies), then attack or trip them when they rise has great lock down potential. As a said before, this build revolves around use of the Halberd as the primary weapon, which is considered a Pole Arm (See Fighter Section) and therefore useable by the Phalanx Soldier with one hand after lv 3. The Halberd does not have reach, so Greater Overrun is used to its full potential. Using Charge though to run over one enemy and attack another with the Stunning Assault feat is also a late game combo I have planned out.

I would like to keep the used material (or as much as possible) within the Pathfinder boundaries, which for the most part rules out home brew classes such as your Armiger

As for Ultimate Combat, I will not consider material from it with this build (or even a game) until I know it is balanced with prior released material. If Ultimate Magic is anything to go by, it likely wont be, and the inclusion of the Ninja also has me not a little perturbed.

Strength is a good idea, but Dex adds to your CMD to, and gives more AoO. Strength is also not as much a damage factor if you use Vital Strike a lot. Still, I'd think Str after two points of Dex would be best, as Con does not seem to add much when you put a point in aside from a Fort save every modifier raise.

Cheapy, I have checked out the Stalwart Defender, and was honestly not impressed. While I did state earlier that I was not looking for a ton of mobility, the Stalwart Defender is just far to immobile for my taste. Being reliant on Defensive Stance, a daily finite resource, to enact your class powers is a stinging weakness, and that is not even taking into account that you cant move while you are doing it. It would be a patient GM that is not tempted to have his monsters take advantage of that. If you do want to move, you are fatigued for twice as long afterwards, and the "Defensive Powers" are just Combat Feats and Barbarian Rage Powers with different names. There is more potential for the Phalanx Soldier to be a Defensive Powerhouse while still being mobile, and on top of that being great at Combat Maneuvers.

Lareg, I actually just bought Dwarves of Golarion just the other day and greatly enjoyed it (a bit pricey for 32 pages, but still). I was at first disappointed with the "New Dwarven Weapon", as I was expecting a quadruple headed mechanized Battle Axe or something. After looking at it again, I did see the potential of a versatile reach weapon, but only after taking those specific feats. Since its not a Pole Arm, does not provide the brace property, and requires additional feats to make use of properly, I cant say that it has a place in this build. Still, thank you for the suggestion.

Thank you Argus The Slayer for pointing out that property of the Maximum Dex Bonus, which I had completely overlooked. This essentially negates the need for a RoS Mithral Tower Shield in this build, and as such I am fine with forgoing it altogether. A good Dex is still important in this build for AoO (Which not only allows for trips during enemy movement, but feeds the Bodyguard AC bonus), but now I can focus on maximizing my AC rather than my Max Dex if I need to.

I actually do not know what the fauchard is, as it is neither in the core book or the advanced gear list of the PRD. While my build does seem to benefit most from a halberd, I would be a fool to say that mixing things up was a bad thing, especially if it is with another Pole Arm. My only problem with reach weapons is that it cant be used on adjacent foes, thus requiring you to either step back (and lose ground) to attack, or move back the foe with the shield slam's built in bull rush before attacking with the Pole Arm. Reach is very useful, but I would rather it were done with the Enlarge Person spell from that anemic wizard you try to keep out of trouble. Being bigger, you also benefit from bonuses to Combat Maneuvers, making this build even better at what it does.

R.Cornelius, I did not write it in, but all of the feat advancements were written in to work in tandem with the Phalanx Soldier's own class progression. An example would be the picking of Vital Strike at lv 9 to coincide with the Shield Ally class feature also earned at that level. While lackluster at most any other time, Vital Strike does allow the Phalanx Soldier to give a good hit even when using a move action to apply the Shield Ally defensive bonus to your friends (+2 AC and +1 Ref, and where appropriate use Bodyguard to add another +2 AC).

This build can be further flavored by Dwarf Advanced Race Modifications, such as choosing the Relentless (+2 Bull Rush, Overrun) Feature to get more from Bull rush and Overrun later on, and recovering the CMD against Trip and Overrun from the Alternative Dwarf Fav Class leveling bonus (+1 CMD trip/Overrun instead of +1 HP or +1 Skill). My main concern now is deciding the best use of the Ability points earned through leveling.

The Steel Tower Shield Variant and its Mithral Shield upgrade from Races of Stone was referenced due to the lack of clarity regarding the adjustments new materials such as Darkwood or Mithral would have on a Tower Shield's Max Dex Modifier. The Steel Tower Shield is otherwise just like a regular Tower Shield but twice as heavy and much sturdier. I am trying to limit my feat selection to the material provided in the core book and the advanced player additional feats viewable on the PRD. I feel that the inclusion of an additional item such as stated from a 3.5 source does not risk compromising the Pathfinder core game as much as allowing the use of another pool of feats as provided in Complete Warrior.

You might sneak a level of cleric into that with the travel and liberation domains in there.

You want your base speed to be 30, right?

I do it with this cleric and masterwork stone plate!
plus you get longstrider as a spell going up to 40 most of the time!

No, I do not need a base speed of 30 for this build. Even if I wanted it, I do not see where I would fit that into the leveling scheme and still maintain the pace of feat advancement required for what I am aiming for. Maybe if the character was human, but even then unlikely, and at great cost. The phalanx soldier benefits to much from being static after lv 9 to warrant a great commitment to get a small speed boost, and by lv 15 at the very least you should be able to charge across the battlefield if you need to get anywhere quick AND run over anything in your path while doing so. Multi-Class Fighter/Cleric (especially those domains) would also be very hard to stomach from a role play perspective given the traditional Dwarven nature of the character. While I appreciate the suggestion, I find it hard to believe that you actually read through my post to begin with.

As it stands, if I truly wanted a fast and mobile fighter, I would have tried making a Mobile Fighter Archetype with your Cleric multiclass.

I have been looking into the PRD after buying the core book PDF, and wanted to build a Defensive Dwarven Fighter from the phalanx archetype. It was alot more difficult than I thought it would be given, some of the inherent quirks of the Phalanx Soldier. After focusing the feat structure and revising what I wanted this character to do as he leveled, I have come up with the following build order. I would like to restrict myself to the core book and the advanced player supplements currently on the PRD. I have built this character around the Dwarf's characteristic's as well, and am proud enough to say that it is a very Dwarven Character as a result. More details after the build:

Description: Template for a Dwarven Fighter–Phalanx Soldier(VaultWarden)

LV Class Atk. Class: (Bonus Feats) Feats Ability
1 Fighter +1 1.Combat Expertise 1.Improved Trip
2 Fighter +2 2.Combat Reflexes
3 Fighter +3 2.Shield Focus
4 Fighter +4 3.Shield Spec: Tower +1 Dex
5 Fighter +5 Weapon1: Pole Arms 3.Body Guard
6 Fighter +6/+1 4. Greater Trip
7 Fighter +7/+2 4.In Harm’s Way
8 Fighter +8/+3 5. Power Attack +1 Dex
9 Fighter +9/+4 Weapon2: Spear 5.Vital Strike
10 Fighter +10/+5 6.Improved Bull Rush
11 Fighter +11/+6/+1 6.Imp. Vital Strike
12 Fighter +12/+7/+2 7. Improved Overrun +1 Con
13 Fighter +13/+8/+3 Weapon3: Close 7. Charge through
14 Fighter +14/+9/+4 8. Greater Overrun
15 Fighter +15/+10/+5 8.Greater Bull Rush
16 Fighter +16/+11/+6/+1 9. Greater Vital Strike +1 Con
17 Fighter +17/+12/+7/+2 Weapon4: Crossbow 9. Stunning Assault
18 Fighter +18/+13/+8/+3 10. Second Chance
19 Fighter +19/+14/+9/+4 10. Lightning Reflexes
20 Fighter +20/+15/+10/+5 11.Imp.Lightning Reflexes +1 Con

Starting Stats (15 pts): STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 16 INT: 13 WIS: 10 CHA: 7

The strength of the phalanx soldier comes from it's mastery of the tower shield, its large bonus to CMD and later CMB, and the defensive bonuses it provides to adjacent allies from 9th level up. The shield Shield Slam tree is therefore not a factor in this build. The feat tax from that feat tree would also have hindered CM versatility. Vital Strike has been included in this build because it pairs greatly with the Phalanx Soldier's move action ally defense bonus, which is why I have added it at lv. 9 instead of 6. The Power attack, Bull rush, and Overrun Feats have been factored in to take effect before Irresistible Advance. Stunning Assault is combined with Charge Through to reach vulnerable targets behind other enemies that need to be disabled for that round. Second Chance is used during the full round action to ensure that an urgently needed trip or stun is allowed to go off. Lightning Reflexes and Improved Lightning Reflexes are not dumps but rather build up to the improved Evasion provided by the Tower Shield at lv 20.

The weapon of choice for this build is a Halberd wielded in one hand (Trident leading up to it). The Halberd is a versatile two-handed weapon with two different damage types and the brace and trip feature. As a one handed weapon, it is very potent in that regard, especially for a Phalanx Soldier that can take advantage of the brace property. AoO beyond 2 are made possible by the inclusion of a Mithral Tower Shield (an upgrade from a Steel Tower Shield) as stated in Races of Stone.

Steel Tower Shield Cost: 75 gp (4075 gp Mithral)
Shield Bonus:+4 Max Dex: +2 (+4 Mithril) Armor Check Penalty: –10 (-7 Mithril) Spell Failure: 50% (40% Mithril)
Weight: 100 lb. (50 lbs Mithril) Hardness: 10 (15 Mithral) Hit Points: 60 (60 Mithral)

Tower Shields are further made more important in this build by the use of the Shield Spec Feat, which grants bonus CMD based on the base Shield Bonus + 1. Overall, I have aimed to make this Fighter a Combat Maneuver superiority Defensive - Support Fighter. Damage was considered but not prioritized. I would like input from the community on my idea :)

NOTE: I am sorry if my Character Build format does not come out how I wanted it. I have tried to make it clear how I meant to progress, let me know if I need to make any clarifications.