I do think that we will be rocking the action economy against the baddies.
Healing will be the interesting part. The druid and the pally will take care of themselves I'm sure. I will be able to heal every one once/day with a hex, and I will be making a ton of scrolls...the rest will come down to wands...and avoiding damage to begin with. (Hmmm...baddie has to roll twice, take the lowest and is -2 to -4 on top of that...tee hee)
So, our DM has generously given us a 20 pt buy and here is the party break down so far.
Halfling Cavalier (Emissary)
DM suggested as I'm a witch and ranger is taking Witchguard that we ran from Irresen.
So my back story is that I'm a renegade Jadwiga, and as neither of us had the temperament for the brutality expected of us, we ran with some assistance with the more 'liberal' stilyagi. Thus, I'm starting off with more defensive hexes, Ward and Healing, Scribe Scroll (CLW, Hex Ward will be crafted right away) and my character's intent WAS to be a peacenik, but by L2 will pull out Evil Eye and will Extra Hex it at level 3 and 5 to get REALLY into rebuffing mode so I can squeeze in Cackle, Misfortune, and Flight by level 5.
I will be taking the Agility Patron (hello Haste at 6th my party of melee dudes).
How doomed are we?
The best dragon combat I have run was from Dragon Mountain…and that one WAS very memorable, with 2nd place being the Blue Dragon at the Moathouse in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil…
Other than that, my dragon encounters have been…blah.
In order to give dragons more flexibility and staying power, I was thinking of the following changes to help my apparent blind side in dragon tactics, make the battles more memorable, and to help them stick it out in combat, and rattle my players expectations on what dragons can do…what would ya’ll say should be the increase in CR?
DR: X/Magic? Blech…by the time you are fighting dragons…that is not an issue…I would make that DR X/-
Breath Weapon: Just having one type of effect (line, cone) is BORING, and with Knowledge Scores being easy to reach…then they are also predictable by the party. I would give the dragon the following choices when using its breath weapon.
Line: 5 to 10 feet wide (up to 15’ for colossal) and how long depends upon size or age as well , and I would hash that out later (maybe 20’ per age category)
Cone: 5 wide base but would increase based upon size above and would be much shorter than the line (5’ long per age category?)
Burst: Medium range (100’ + 10’ per age category) with a radius based upon age or size category, like 5’ then 10’, then 15’, then 20’ for the Ancient Wyrm for example…
Cloud: Dragon breaths on itself, causing a cloud area of effect around (and on) itself . The area around could start off at 5’ then get bigger per every few age categories, eventually going to as far as 15 to 20’
So, rough ball park on CR bump?
Exactly, when making up new characters as a group, we pick each other's brain to from a team to kill the DM's baddies :). BUT we don't dictate to each other either.
Based upon the OP's info provided. He was TOLD to make a cleric (gives me the ickies) but use any Pathfinder stuff from Paizo.
Then he did. And the DM didn't like it. It does not sound like the rest of the players had any issues. Just the DM.
To some, the Summoner might just be too complicated to play or in the mood for. Fighters on the other hand offer some cool versatility, and do not require the same level of paperwork at all.
Eidolons are great but they begin to lose ground compared to the Fighter as they are tied to the Summoner's progression. They get full BAB, but as they don't level every time the Summoner does, it's really 3/4. Evolutions make up for this, but then there is the lack of gear as it has to share with the Summoner.
Also, if I was playing a fighter and had a summoner in the group, I would LOVE it. Something that scary will pull the attacks in it's direction, yay for me!
Mage Armor on your eidolon makes him that much more of a badass. Allows you to get to L2.
Glitterdust is better than Slow for a Summoner, very true, forgot about the Conj part on that one.
My main point still stands, the Summoner has very few slots to access their very good spell list. They are not uber casters (they are really good casters though)
Pinky's Brain wrote:
How is that relevant?
Characters are disposable, but I wouldn't make one a pure throw away either no matter the level.
Very true. The Summoner gets a great selection, but can only pick a very few. Some are must haves, thus making the selections even fewer.
All above is true Ragnarok Aeon, but:
Since you are getting the spells at lower level, when you get them means the duration is shorter.
Haste, get at 4th level, means 4 rounds of haste and you can only cast it 2 or 3 times a day. Granted, at 5th you have the same duration as a Wizard (5 rounds) who just got it, but the Wizard may not be so inclined to memorize the spell since you can 'spam' it.
Some of these faster access spells can be a trap in that you really can run out of spells fast.
Also, item creation feats? Not many would take them as a Summoner when they may look at those pretty Summoner Feats (Extra Evolution, Extra Summons, Vigilant Eidolon, etc...)
My response was to the Wiz that is dumping STR, WIS and CHR to 7, and saying they are not having any issues. (See above posts)
A 1st level Wizard with a 7 Wiz has a +0 Will Save.
While it has been pointed out that a 1st level fighter would have the same, great, then you BOTH failed the save vs Fear (along with the sneaky dude most likely), leaving the cleric to figure out how to take on the Thing that made everyone panic. (Most likely run away too)
Or worse, as those gimpy stats tend not to be improved upon, a DM may just decide to send level appropriate ability damaging critters. 3 7's in a stat array make you extra vulnerable to MORE of those monsters...and now the cleric has to suck up more restoration spells. Or Dispels when you get charmed (that he was saving for the fighter). Or when the enemy notes that carrying your staff appears to be causing you to breath hard, nails you with a Ray of Enfeeblement, or worse yet...Cloudkill and rolls an 8 for Con Damage.
This is draining the party's resources due to gimping yourself so you can uber high DC's. That's not teamwork, that's selfish.
So far, all of the AP's we have run have been 25 pt buy except Skull and Shackles, which was 15 but we played a mini game before the AP started to get and extra bump to our prime stat and a random stat bump...which brought us to around 20-22 pt buy.
We have a gang of 5 players, all who are experienced and 2 who are VERY experienced.
My 5 players are CRUSHING RotRL and they are 1 level behind in XP (due to their being 5). And I rate how they are doing that as:
1. Very Cooperative Players. (They play as well as a freaking SWAT team)
Points 2 and 3 are interchangeable...as we have just played with 4 when one was out a couple of times.
25 point buy is a bump in power, plain and simple, to say otherwise just seems odd. You can create a good character with NO dump stats, or a AWESOME focused character with a dump or two...
WRT to Summoners in general. Same response as said before in other threads:
If the pet is crushing the martial classes, then make sure the build is legal. This has been the source of a lot of angst.
An experienced player who likes building things...is going to ROCK with this class, but is still not on par with the Wizard. (A close 2nd or 3rd maybe, but unless the game is NOT based upon the 15 min adventuring day...the Summoner runs out of spells fast)
Erik Mona wrote:
Totally freakin wicked.
All other things being equal, which group is more powerful? A party of 15pt buys or 25 pt buys?
I'm not trying to be confrontational, but just throwing out the Weak DM vs Good DM comments, please realize that super tailoring AP's for some DM's is not an option. We have full time jobs, kids, and other stuff to do.
Unless the the easier target is not as much of a threat as the invisible wizard summoning MORE adversaries OR (using Greater Invisibility)spamming you with attack spells.
And invisibility is only a 2nd level spell, its NOT a perfect defense. That's why there is an ever so small chance you can pick up on cues to where invis-o-man is. Greater Invisibility, while a 4th level spell, only allows the user to stay invisible while attacking and does not improve the quality of the defense (same stealth bonus/perception penalty).
Perception is the most used skill for a reason. And really, should a 10 level monk with 18 Wis with a 17 Perception score be totally shut down by a 2nd level spell?
With a good roll and exercising caution a 3rd wizard still has a chance of evading the monk with a mere 2nd level spell.
Now I have to ask...why is it not legal in PFS?
Per the Inner Sea Bestiary they are 16 RP, but I am not coming up with that many spent.
Humanoid/Constructed: 2 (Love this by the way)
I'm coming up with a total of 9. What am I missing?
Party is confronted by a guy in plate mail, 20 well armed and armored thugs and an obvious wizard.
Plate mail Guy: 'Surrender now and we might only take your stuff!'
Player (leader of the group): 'Eat Hammer metal head!' (throws a throwing hammer that he has had for several levels, but never used) Roll: Nat 20!
Much huzzahs in or group!
:) actually I was being too snarky for my own good.
I'm basically asking for Paizo to have WizKids make some gunslinger minis for Pathfinder.
Currently have started Skull & Shackles, and we have a human female gunslinger...
Does anyone know of any plans to add these to a set in the future?
Yep, AC is correct. Summoners are great, and in the hands of an experienced player can really mess your bad guys up with their pet. So, as the DM, you will need to use different tactics. Target the Summoner, battlefield control/ranged touch attacks on the pet, etc.
Thread Necro....sorry sorry
I'm playing synth...and while I'm looking forward to the higher levels, I still would not want to solo against a competent fighter build (NPC). I see the synth as a great 2nd wave melee, to come at the enemy sideways after the party's main gun has gotten their attention and wrecking their day. This allows the buffage and when I take the baddie's attention away from the fighter (or barbie), he gets a second wind (healing, self buffing, repositioning, whatever). Wolf tactics!
Okay, I'm going for a weird build, and it is what I am set on, but need some advice on how not to blow the concept.
Background: We are starting Skull & Shackles.
Our DM is gonna be changing up the start, we already have a ship and we each are taking 1 of 6 roles that each award a +2 to an ability score.
I got the Captain, which gets me a +2 to Charisma.
We are starting with a 15 point buy.
I plan on playing a Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) at 1st level, then Summoner for the rest. I am toying with Synthesist, but really love a separate eidolon.
Fellow Party Members:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Does this mean they get the +4 to the save?
Okay...I missed that...we all did I guess!
Yeah, I get that the spell DOES have to get past that hurdle...otherwise it gets shut down fast, but when it works...it's devastating.
My group is seeing a well built illusionist doing his shtick with this spell very well. We got the drop on a bunch of Barbed Devils mounted on Hellcats...and he took out over half of them (6 or so) cause they blew their saves (he is spell focused in illusion I believe).
I don't fault the player obviously, we are all reading the spell, and he is doing nothing incorrectly...just a few of us are looking at some epic fights getting done VERY quickly.
But, I agree in the end...the spell can fail on that first save.
Well, it seems a bit contradictory in its description...
The spell seems to fool the targets into thinking it is trapped in a Web spell (with spiders!) so, one would think that teleporting out would get their brain to reboot,but it does not, but a freedom of movement does?
Web has rules to get out, so why not make the the target have to mentally escape the grapple (they 'think' they escaped)to give them a chance?
Or is it that the spell has 2 saves that gives it balance? WILL to be trapped, and FORT to not be nauseated.