VedicDragon's page

I was not and am not insulting 4th edition nor those who would like to play it. I was merely responding to the original poster in a form of agreeance of what was an initial turn off for me.

I think people missed this.

I feel the same way. As for why the need to reply? Last I checked freedom of speech was one of the amendments, this was a free country and these boards were for open discussion and interchange of ideas.

As for myself, I happen to agree. Now, I WILL try 4th and if I like it I WILL play it. However, the marketting and processing and design methodology I have seen so far, the "FEEL" as the original poster suggested, seems to be a turn off for more than just me, apparently.

As for futility in posting... clearly if proponents of 4th disagree then say so, but try and keep it civil and for the love of G-D topical, yeah?

The Government that Governs best Governs Least.

Does the Game System that Governs Least govern Best?

I disagree. While simplicity is a good benchmark, not at the expense of quality. Simplicity for its own sake is the Simpleton's Outlook.

So if we lower the bar until the most slack-jawed cro-magnon dullard can enjoy D&D do we distill its very essence and enjoyment?

I say yes.

I say that MMORPG's are not innovations that should be applied to tabletop design concept. Being that these were inspired by D&D and modified to fit their environment better, I see this as the Fantasy Gaming Market "feeding on itself".

And what do you get what happens?

Regurgitation.

The very design notes that I read were offensive, the principles being applied seemed shoddily thought out.

"Balance" loses its meaning when each class is redefined to incorporate the ability for each character to "solo". Self-sufficiency is one thing, but the entire point of BEING a party is relying on the various strengths that the others provide, gaps in capabilities being supplemented. Giving each class a power source, at least from an aesthetic angle, seems like overkill. I mean, is it me, or has power-creep pervaded each revision?

It seems more and more like the game is aesthetically designed to cater to adolescent power-fantasy, rather than Fantasy that has various powers. Therein lies the distinction, I think behind the "feel" of the game. I am reminded of comparing a homemade burger to a McDonalds dollar menu. Snazzy packaging, easy and fast, but the McDonald's feels "processed" and artificial.

I am given the same impression.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a complete hater ... I am interested in the cosmology changes and swap-ups with Grazz't going Devil and Asmodeus going Deity . . . and the art and etc is very polished and pretty to sell us on this.

I just . .. guess I am tired of being force-fed junkfood.

The Homemade burger, (3.5) though sloppy and imperfect, to my mind tastes better and is wholly more fulfilling.

Well this isn't necessarily a PC encounter per se.

I am the pc in a epic game, cleared this with the DM as a way of unhinging the cosmos enough to justify a massive scramble towards order, "tipping the cosmic balance" as it were, with having Cthulhu supplant Ilsensine, if possible.

If so, the various Elder Brain Enclaves would be directly brought to heel and tied in to the Lovecraftian Mythos, kicking off a modified version of the events of the Illithiad Adventures where the illithids blot out the sun.

This is all part of a ploy to get the Multiverse so shaken up across the various planes and settings that the Gods will have to empower Asmodeus to fix it all and to keep up with the sheer anarchic chaos threatening to run pell-mell over all of Creation in its various manifestations.

Queue the reverse-justification for the 4E cosmology re-write.

:-) My character in question is a 1 Binder/ 3 Hellfire Warlock / 2 Ur-Priest / 8 Eldritch Disciple / 5 Anima Mage with ALOT of Cthulhu Mythos / Far Realm Lore and Obyrith Lore.

He currently serves/worships a "Dark Triage" of Asmodeus, Tenebrous & Vecna.

This is just one of various "Big Scope" events in "the Plan", but I don't want to downplay the deployment of Cthullhu that way, so I'm of two minds about this... The Queen of Chaos & The Rod of Seven Parts is involved, as is an Artifact known as the "Wand of Dagon". May even have to Unleash the Apocalypse Stone on a Prime Setting like Greyhawk to stir things up enough. The (evil) party's a bunch of hard-hitting movers & shakers, so it's plausible enough.

Basically we're setting up the challenges in this campaign that will plague the PC's of five or six others.

But the point is to deploy him (Cthullhu) as a major setting piece, that will get the rest of the PCs across the various concurrent campaigns to PAY ATTENTION to the Aberrations and Ancient Histories that usually get ignored in Monty-Haul esque fashion. My DM basically called me in a a "Fixer" to blast into oblivion or subtly twist the direction towards the goals he's shooting for.

So what I'm really asking here, I guess, is :

1. How would you use Cthullhu in a D&D setting?

2. How would he interact with the other Deities of the D&D Universe?

3. Is Cthullhu in and of himself, psionic?

4. Would Cthullhu be powerful enough to take on/change or enslave Ilsensine? Or merge with it?

5. What would the interaction level be if we dumped the entire Mythos Pantheon in? Could Cthulhu summon Yog-Sothoth? If not, How about the others? (It's obvious that Yog-Sothoth would bring the others if so)

6. What would their alien, ineffable goals be? ( It's pointless to shine the light on them and then keep it inscrutable)

Hi there.
I own the Call of Cthulhu Campaign and am embroiled in a series of epic D&D games with concurrent plotline. I was planning on having an Alienist ally of my Diabolic PC try to contact Great Cthulhu and ordered the book only to be infuriated.

Demigod status?!?!?!

DEMIGOD???

Now I know it/s/he's a servitor to Yog-Sothoth, but come on! If Tyr can have Helm and Torm giving him Due, then Yog-Sothoth can certaintly have a more powerful Servant ...

I mean, I have factored in all the different spells and whatnot.

At any rate, was looking for advise in porting old 'thullhu into a Planar D&D campaign . . . with the express purpose of toppling/subverting Ilsensine and setting up a new hierarchy for the Illithids.

Any ideas/feedbacks/flames-as-to-why-this-wouldn't-work?

Do you think Great Cthullhu would get a shot in the arm from the transmogrification to a magic-rich setting like the D&D cosmos, or be crippled by the journey? Would he be a psionic entity or no?

Thanks in advance.

Iron Kingdoms R0x0rz my b0x0rz.

Love the setting, have incorporated the firearms rules and gun mages into a Ravenloft campaign to great success.

Would love to know more about the miniature game ... tell me, is it compatible with the RPG, or a separate-but-related-entity unto itself?

Zynete wrote:

...Does [sic] that mean I can't add to it with new rules in following supplements? Can I send out or even suggest errata?...

I think the real problem many have with 4e is that it's virtually a completely different game from v3.5 and back. From what I've seen, it's so different form 'traditional' D&D that WotC could have branded it under a different name and successfully marketed it as an alternative game to D&D.

Just my opinion.

Ahh but then not as many people would buy it!!! ;-) Therein lies the hook..

I am hoping my fears are wrong and I am just being a prematurely old curmudgeon at my whole 27 years of youth. I am hoping 4th edition is somewhat more compatible with 3.5 than we've been given to believe.

I also hope for world peace and a cease of unrest abroad, and a dramatic improvement in our economy.

Andrew, you summed up my number one concern right there. There's a reason Playstation 3's and Xbox 360's tout backwards-compatibility. No one wants to hear that their often numerous and expense investments have been callously filed away into obsolescence.

Come get you some character sheet!

At Sinister Adventures!

You gotta log in to get it! So register if you haven't!

How do I see the sheet? I confirmed my login and everything, no luck ....

Oh poo. :-P

"Rage, Rage against the dying of the light..."

I've heard it all before - 2nd Edition, D20, 3.5, yadda yadda. IMO, Hackmaster is the true successor to D&D. All other incarnations of the game, since AD&D, have been devolutions.

LOL Spoken like Teflon Billy Himself, SH.

But do you have -ALL- those mammoth monstrous compendiums? LOL

James Jacobs wrote:

I'm more worried about making Pathfinder as awesome as it can be while avoiding the nervous breakdown that's lurking just over my shoulder. I think it just bought a baseball bat. And it's not a fan of baseball, is what I'm saying...

Whenever you hear its footsteps behind you remember to take long, deep breaths.

Adapt as the stresses come and know that all problems are just challenges, and that nothing will ever break you.

Oh Sage Jade, is there no conflict you cannot resolve? ;-)

Touche'

Mike McArtor wrote:

Those of us who post a LOT of stuff to the Internet tend to do one of two things to avoid losing our long posts:
1. Write them in a text editor (like MSWord) and paste them into the form or
2. Use the CTRL-A/CTRL-C option, just in case (this is what I do).

Ahhh yes.. between here and Candlekeep, I've learned to put all my lengthy posts in the clipboard before posting them. :)

Dear God, yes . . . I've lost track of how many times that used to happen to me....

Then I got Safari Browser with my new MacBook. :-) Nevertheless, though more stable, I still cut and paste for safety's sake. And out of habit, I suppose.

Because those leather-bound Special Edition Core Rulebooks 3.5 are in short supply, and are FAR too pretty to bring out for anything but truly special occassions.

I think it's time you two stopped arguing, manned up and got into the Butter Vat of Gore!

Two men enter!

Two men *leave!

*although decidedly glossier and more edible smelling.

LOL

I like that. Sounds like I plan. I'm not going to get worked up over a messageboard posting. Thanks for the Comic-Relief Jade.

Sebastian, so we're clear, no hard feelings. Ignore my posts if you like, but try not to be so sensitive to the 4E bashing that you fail to see there are reconcilers and "high-road" walkers on both sides.

My goal is to empathize and foster acceptance and productive discussion. Not rhetoric and flaming. I will be happy to work with you and very much can see your side. Can you meet me halfway here, as I speak with my "like minded".

By all means, it might help if you read what it was that I wrote. I have seen the "armed camps" mentality before, and it is never productive to EITHER side, which was more or less my point.

I am very much looking forwards to stripping what I need from 4E for my own purposes, much as I did with 3.0 and 2nd. The Gorgeous (then new) Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was a bonus, as were all the maps and articles. I will say this, as much as I ethically disapprove of methods in which these things occur, I certainly enjoy reaping some fringe-benefits while I am at it. Heck, we are even starting plot lines to bridge the cosmology and deific pantheon changes in our running 3.5 games... it's alot of fun!

Let's be better than civil . . . I am sure we have more common ground than you realize.

I have no official sources to quote ....

With that disclaimer, I find those who handle this best are retired or current DM's who want to play. They know how to handle the stresses of multiple characters simultaneously, number-crunching and "switching out" personalities upon external impetus. Makes for the most capable environment for this play-style, and I've found it very rewarding.

VedicDragon wrote:

At least I refrained from actual sophomoric insults.
Talk to me about classy when you can follow this board's policies.

Actually what I provided is a reasoned and well-considered response of what those who are frustrated by 4E can do instead of flaming or engaging in these infantile arguments.

But then, it's very clear you actually READ what I wrote and didn't ascribe tones and your own baggage where none was intended or present.

Bravo, you are a shining example of your peer group.

I don't even know who you are much less what you said. I could read it, but I don't really care enough to do so anymore. But thanks for the shout out.

Then you recognize you are not keeping up with the topic and are probably pouring oil on an otherwise dying fire?

Just wanted you to be clear if counterproductivity was your goal.

Wow, you're going to be a dick about 4e even after Paizo stays 3.5 in order to drive away the remaining people who are ambivalent about 4e and/or thinking about staying with 3.paizo and 4e. Great work trying to cement Paizo's reputation as the unfriendly anti-4e grognard community.

Way to stay classy 4e-haters.

At least I refrained from actual sophomoric insults.

Actually what I provided is a reasoned and well-considered response of what those who are frustrated by 4E can do instead of flaming or engaging in these infantile arguments.

But then, it's very clear you actually READ what I wrote and didn't ascribe tones and your own baggage where none was intended or present.

Bravo, you are a shining example of your peer group.

And DudeMonkey, I will simply say thus: If that is "The Way things go" these days, it is only because we as Consumers and fans ALLOW it to be so. It is not necessarily how the the way things SHOULD be.

RPGs are NOT Operating Systems, Wizards is not Microsoft, and EVERY gamer out there can continue to function with existing product. The problem with constant updates and new publications and frankly, sheer GREED is that the Publisher (wizards) MAKES these systems overly clunky, rather than developing Settings. The result is the same as TSR, just inversely. In the TSR days, an overabundance of settings cost the company, and led to detriment of the hobby. Now, an overabundance of SYSTEMS leads to a detriment to the consumer, and the hobby is becoming very expensive indeed. Needlessly so.

Lisa,
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply!

Is there anything we, as consumers, can do? Perhaps start a petition? I have been in on the ground floor of several, and I would be happy to publicize and/or organize any effort to get Paizo the permission it requires!

Is there a contact at Wizards Customer Service or Marketting we should spam? (J/K ;-) )
Let us know and I will be glad to go about such in a professional and concise manner that will show the incumbent need for such a license renewal. Tell us how we can help you continue to provide the quality and thorough product(s) that we love so well... I know you as a company have avenues to pursue this (and I assume you have, as clarified here and elsewhere). So I would not presume to any role save as an enthusiastic consumer.

Thank you again for your time and consideration.

Ahhh the everpresent -new edition- debates . . . .

I remember attempting to "fight the good fight" for 2nd edition when third edition came out. Doomed.

Nevertheless I eventually converted to 3.5 when it came out as it fixed many things which were "broken" with WotC's professed panacea to 2nd edition ills. I too have invested 20 years into this game ... since I was 8. Passed on from Cousin down unto cousin until the d20 rolled into my hands.

I digress.

The 4th edition fanboys can tar and feather me for this, I suppose, but there was at least strengths to the reasoning for d20 system's creation, and I could see that even in my fury over the lack of respect for customers that I felt the reloads were.

There is almost no redeeming quality to Hasbro's push for 4th edition. I remember overhearing a conversation about a plan to make a "newer" edition every decade or so from a regional manager back when I worked at the Wizards of the Coast store.

Welcome to the scam people. I've been waiting for this since the Hasbro acquisition years ago. I also predicted they would run the stores into the ground and close them out. This is exactly what happened, depriving gamers across the country of an excellent environment of customer-friendly service and RPGA-compliant events.

They scrapped the LANs, they Scrapped the RPGs, and then they even stopped selling CCG's & Warhammer, until the whole complex had to shut down. This I predicted the second I heard of the Hasbro acquisition, and thus far, every prediction I have made for the last six years has come true.

My advice? Do what the holdouts from 2nd edition did/do: Convert and cannibalize what you can, continue to run your own games.

Build libraries, establish clubs at local high schools and colleges. D&D as we know it has gone underground before, so this is not the first time. Play Pathfinder. Modify Pathfinder. If Necessity is the mother of Invention, Desperation is the father of Innovation. In the 70's & 80's we as gamers had to fear persecution for our hobby due to misguided parental zeal and hysteria. Now, the enemy is the Imperialist Soulless Corporate Juggernaut. Now, as then, the solution lies in your own hands. Unite, organize, publish your own works. As the late Mr. Gygax has and would say, "Your imagination holds the keys to many doors. You have but to turn them"

Slainte.

May I suggest that Spelljammer is a fantastic resource for fantasy space-opera feel that dovetails nicely with the Dragonstar Campaign?

Seriously, check out some of the old modules and write-ups on Crystal Spheres for the various different existing campaigns and you have some seriously grandiose resources for any level party from low-level to epic.

I believe that "gypsy" is actually a corruption of the word "egyptian."

That's my understanding as well. I did read a book ("Bury Me Standing", IIRC) that traced the history of the Rom gypsies back to India, the tinkerers there, whose name I cannot recall at this time.

Yes, I read about it in an article years ago. It is believed that the original gypsies [or Roma or Romany] might have migrated from India. The name "gypsy" was attached to them by Europeans that weren't aware of where they came from.

As for the Terminology you are looking for, as for Indian proto-gypsies, the two indigenous groups you are probably looking for are either known as the banjara or the vagri (though the last one is often an epithet associated with thievery).

I found out when I got into the LARP scene and Ren Faires that I was actually "playing reality" as I have family ties to the Banjara.
Go figure. Nothing really too concrete in so far as living relations, but it was a very cool revelation as my primary PC is a gypsy in Ravenloft.

If you like I can go on .... my group got heavily into researching and studying the real-world gypsies to model a fantasy equivalent off of them and various other nomadic traditions not included by the term. So we hit a couple college libraries, the internet, local bookstores and managed to piece together the most popular and substantiated theories:

Anyways, if you have further interest in the topic in question, what may help your research is understanding that a BUNCH of Nomadics from Indigineous Indian population(s) went out in all different directions throughout variou periods, in various waves of migrations due to religious persecution, state oppression, simple migration or following herds, as well as trade/commerce.

The three major groups by which Self Professed Gypsies are divided academically and internally are the Rom, Dom and Lom, short for Romani, Domari and Lomavren. This of course leaves out external elements like the Irish Travellers, and the Pikees, to name just a few.

The Lom are known for running around the Southeast Asian region, if I'm not mistaken and have much indian blood in them as well. A bunch of proto-Indians (post Aryan conquest and Indus Valley) ran up to Russia and influences can be seen in Kossack culture amongst other strains. Finally the Domari are the Middle-Eastern Native Gypsies who bounced back and forth to-and-from India & Persia and then finally Westward through Iraq/Iran and assimilated the local culture(s) as they went. The Dom stayed whilst those known as the Rom continued through to Egypt. By the time they reached Rome, they were asked from whence they came, and given persecution recieved all around replied "Egypt", hence Gyptians and eventually Gypsies.

When reaching the rest of Europe, the same question incited replies of "Rome", begetting the term "Romani"

First off, let me say I absolutely adore this product...

Useful, informative, and as a collector, converting the old 2nd edition and 3.0 resources to 3.5 made this an invaluable resource.

That being said, I have to say the name and advertising for the Dragon Compendium, much like WotC's Spell Compendium before it, is bitterly misleading.

I remember when D&D writers and publishers knew and understood what "Compendium" means. Back in 2nd ed days, when the first spell compendium came out, we didn't sweat too much just because it only had A-D, because we -KNEW- TSR would publish a 2nd, 3rd and 4th. And they did. Exhaustively. They even went back and made sure Priests got their own three volumes.

Dragon Magazine had an archive. And when they said complete-they meant it. Those CD-ROMS are some of the best investments in D&D expenditures I have ever made.

Now to the current product. Much like WotC's Spell Compendium, I see little hope of further volumes actually seeing the light of print.

PLEASE let this not die just because of Wizards (more importantly) Hasbro's inept inability to put customer satisfaction over their greed for profit margin. We have seen them effectively kill Ravenloft with Sword & Sorcery.

Under OGL, I would think it would be a fairly simple matter to go back and revisit your previous publication(s) under intellectual property laws and produce d20 Conversions and "republication".

I mean, is there not a similar logic behind continuing to produce the Pathfinder Setting in 3.5?

I would think the sales have justified a Volume 2 by now...

Thank you for your time and consideration.