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Vanday's page

14 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.




As you can gather from the title, I am not totally satisfied with how multiclassing works in PF (or DnD 3.X in general). Don't get me wrong - I think that the basic idea of mixing and matching classes as you see fit is utterly awesome. However, it seems to me that this option is clearly suboptimal for a specific segment of the classes in PF - namely the spellcasters. I would like to discuss how to tweak the rules so that multiclassing may achieve its full potential, as it were.

First off, my assumptions: I think (and it has been pointed out to me) that multiclassing is basically fine for warrior/non-casting classes. The reason for this is that combat abilities already stack in a way that spellcasting doesn't, namely in the form of BAB. Imagine for a moment that every class had its own "fighting progression" - BAB, iterative attacks, etc. - that didn't stack across classes. Suddenly, multiclassing becomes a much less viable option even for martial characters.

This, I think, is the root of the problem with multiclassed spellcasters. Spell progressions from different classes do not stack and are incompatible with one another. Also, spellcasting classes will advance your combat abilities, however slowly, while martial classes do not advance spellcasting at all. My suggested fix* is to simply make each class contribute half its level to the spellcasting progressions of each of your classes, if any. I realise that this is not worded very well, so let me give an example. A Ftr10/Wiz10 would cast spells just like a Wiz15, due to 10 wizard levels and five spellcasting levels from being a fighter. The wizard would not contribute anything to the fighter beyond what it does anyway, since the fighter does not have a spellcasting progression. Similarly, a Wiz10/Clr10 would cast like both a Clr15 and Wiz15. This obviously makes the Mystic Theurge and similar classes obsolete. In my opinion, this is a good thing, since I don't think that it should be necessary to take a PrC to achieve this sort of effect.

Note that this idea is a drastic downgrade of another suggestion I had to improve multiclassing. I will restate it here for your evaluation:

Vanday wrote:

I also have a sort of idée fixe concerning multiclassing. A multiclassed character would get something I call “bonus class levels” for want of a better name. It works like this: For each class C, you add together the levels in all your other classes and divide by two, yielding a number n. You then count as n levels higher in class C for the purpose of class features, i.e. everything that is listed in the rightmost column of the class's progression table. Good lord, that sounds complicated :)

To give an example: Rasha is a Ftr6/Wiz6. He gets half his wizard levels as a bonus to his fighter levels for the purpose of class features, and vice versa for wizard. Thus, he would have the saves, skills, BAB, hp and regular feats of a Ftr6/Wiz6, but the bonus feats, weapon and armour training etc. of a Ftr9 as well as the spellcasting ability of a Wiz9.
I think this would give multiclassing a nice bump (I am a fan of MC), but it might be overpowered. I honestly can't say where this character would stand compared to a straight Ftr12 or Wiz12.

I am actually still rather enamored with that idea, but it has been pointed out to me on another forum that a Brb6/Ftr6/Rgr6 would be ludicrously overpowered compared to a Brb18 or Rgr18 under this system. I am at a loss how to prevent this sort of hyper-stacking of class abilities especially among the martial classes, which is why I developed the toned-down system above. I would very much appreciate any input you have for me.

* I am aware that the word "fix" implies that something is broken and that everyone might not agree that this is the case. This is purely from my perspective.


I would really like to use (at least some of) the maneuvres from ToB as abilities for the existing PF warrior classes (esp. the fighter). So, if you were to do something like that, how would you go about it? Just let them pick maneuvres and stances via the feats in the ToB? Give the Fighter a Warblade progression in addition to what he already has, and limiting it to certain disciplines? Use a toned down progression? Give him the Martial Study feat as a bonus feat a few times?

Looking forward to your ideas.


Hi there!

I can by no means claim to be an expert concerning Pathfinder or even D&D 3 in general, but still I have thoughts on various house rules for PF. Some of this stuff is inspired by topics on this forum, as I have been lurking here for some time. I would really appreciate the thoughts and opinions of people who are more knowledgeable than me on the matter of balance and impact on the game. So, here goes.

When making an attack as a standard action, you can make as many attacks as your BAB gives you. Essentially, full attack becomes a standard action. This would probably have a huge impact on the game, but it might make playing a martial character more rewarding.

Another thought I had was that you should not only be able to attack using dex with a light weapon without getting a feat, but should actually be forced to do so. The question is how to handle bonus damage with light weapons. Dex bonus to damage, with or without a feat, or nothing at all? Or something else altogether? Of course, this might make dex way too good.

I also have a sort of idée fixe concerning multiclassing. A multiclassed character would get something I call “bonus class levels” for want of a better name. It works like this: For each class C, you add together the levels in all your other classes and divide by two, yielding a number n. You then count as n levels higher in class C for the purpose of class features, i.e. everything that is listed in the rightmost column of the class's progression table. Good lord, that sounds complicated :)

To give an example: Rasha is a Ftr6/Wiz6. He gets half his wizard levels as a bonus to his fighter levels for the purpose of class features, and vice versa for wizard. Thus, he would have the saves, skills, BAB, hp and regular feats of a Ftr6/Wiz6, but the bonus feats, weapon and armour training etc. of a Ftr9 as well as the spellcasting ability of a Wiz9.

I think this would give multiclassing a nice bump (I am a fan of MC), but it might be overpowered. I honestly can't say where this character would stand compared to a straight Ftr12 or Wiz12.

One problem is that bonus class levels get better the more different classes you take. If a character took 1 level of each PHB class, he would be a lvl 6 everything. That is not to say that such a build would not be totally gimped (I have no idea whether it would), but the potential for abuse is there. One possible fix for this is to divide the sum total of your “other” class levels by your total number of classes instead of a flat two. That would mean that the more classes you have, the lower the bonus you get from each one, which offsets the fact that you have more classes that profit from the bonus levels. This approach seemed great, until I realised that it is possible to lose bonus levels when adding classes, which sucks. Consider a Ftr10/Wiz9. With bonus levels, she would count as a Ftr14/Wiz14 for class features. If she now added a level of rogue to the mix, she'd count as a Ftr13/Wiz12/Rog7. Losing bonus levels after you add a class is not something I would want to occur. Thus, I am at a loss. Maybe somebody has a suggestion on how to implement something similar to this idea.

There is also the question of what to do with prestige classes. The problem is that with bonus levels, a character's level in a prestige class could effectively exceed ten. One possibility is simply to never give bonus levels to prestige classes.

This has gotten rather long. I realise that these changes might come across as pretty radical and I hop that I am not showered with too much derision ;) That being said, please – as the phrase goes – evaluate and criticise honestly.

On a side note, I am not completely happy with the formatting of this post. Does anyone have suggestions in that regard?


Hi there!

I am rather new to Pathfinder and do not have a lot of experience DMing (I did a little in 3.5 Eberron). Since I plan to start a campaign in Eberron under the PF rules, I could use some pointers as to which published adventures (3.5 or PF) work nicely in Eberron and are suitable for starters, as well as any general advice on playing PF in Eberron.


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